Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Interested in conversations about the nature of reality, multidimensionality, truth, being, religion, spirituality, life, love, consciousness, and language?
Wondering how to thrive in an uncertain and rapidly changing world?
Do you want to learn about things you've never experienced or heard of?
If so, we might just be for you!
Wendy Frase 0:00
Welcome to wake up call for the soul with Bill and Wendy. Hi Bill.
Bill Frase 0:05
Hey Wendy.
Wendy Frase 0:06
well, on today's episode, we are going to talk about is sacrifice necessary for progress. But before we get started on that, I have a little bit of a detour, because I was actually blown away yesterday when I opened my email and read my Morning Brew. And this is a little financial email I get with the Financial News, the news summary. Sometimes there's a game, but often they also have a little story, something, maybe in history, or some sort of fun fact, which I probably shouldn't say fun fact anymore, because this story ties in very nicely with what we were talking about in episode one, and our conversation with facts and beliefs and truth and what is really, what is really a fact. And you gave an example, Bill, if you remember, on Abraham, Lincoln being the 16th president. So anyways, this story that I was reading said that on this day, 177 years ago, so that would have made it March 4, 1849 the US did not have a president. So back then, James K Polk was leaving office, and per the law, his administration expired at noon on that day. Well, the incoming president, which was Zachary Taylor, the 12th President. Supposedly, he was supposed to take the oath of office that day, but he refused, because it was His Sabbath, so he wasn't inaugurated till the next day. So then, who was president on March 4, 1849? So I guess there was a little bit of a debate, and some say it was the second person in line, and this man was a senator. His name was David Atchison. So was he the President that day? Now he never claimed the title, but his tombstone does read President of the United States for one day. So that this whole story blew me away for two reasons, one of which is, I love presidential trivia, and I've never heard this story. And then the second thing is, we had just talked about it. You had just given Abraham Lincoln as an example of we can't say that that is a fact for sure, because if this David Atchison was president, then that means Abraham Lincoln would have been the 17th president, and maybe even not that, because there might have been other presidents stuck in there. So that just blew my mind a little bit.
Bill Frase 2:58
Yeah, I feel deeply vindicated by this turn of events.
Wendy Frase 3:05
You should
Bill Frase 3:05
I said something in there about someone sneaking in, and it seems like Mr. Atchinson snuck in as president. And so the very fact, one of the bedrock facts of the United States of America our history, that somehow Abraham Lincoln is the 16th President of the United States is most likely not true, not even correct. It just warms my heart.
Wendy Frase 3:35
I know I thought you would enjoy that, because I was like, Bill, you were right.
Bill Frase 3:40
And you know, I'm still working on this, but I love being right.
Wendy Frase 3:46
Sounds good. Well, I thought our listeners would enjoy that story, and I certainly did when I read it, but I know that you had something else that you wanted to bring up in regards to our last episode.
Bill Frase 3:58
So in our last episode, we were talking about religion, and I felt after that episode, obviously we glossed over a lot of things, but a couple of things I think might be helpful for listeners to be aware of, is that the way that I talked about religions, what we typically think of as religions, particularly Judaism and Christianity, I think it might have given people the impression that those, we'll call them, religions, or people within those religions, were not aware of the scapegoat mechanism. And Rene Gerard is really clear in this, and I agree with him that there was a lot of awareness of, I'll call it, the writers of the scriptures, about the scapegoat mechanism and its connection to sacrifice, both, I would say, in Judaism and Christianity. And so I just wanted to express that, to kind of clarify that up. And I think another thing is that that episode was about religion, and we're going to talk about it in this episode. So this is part of what I consider a segue here, that sacrifice is a critical component of religion. That's why we're doing a whole conversation here about it. But for me, religion is not about religions, per se, the things we typically think of religions. I'm talking about religion as an overarching paradigm for the human world on this planet at this time, and not just now, but for 1000s of years prior to this moment.
Wendy Frase 5:22
So, and that makes sense, because we talked about even in our episode with facts and beliefs, it's how you define how your perspective on religion. So we can't disagree with that, because what you are sharing is your perspective, your new idea for us.
Bill Frase 5:38
Right? And when you use words that people are familiar with and redefine them. It's very easy, and I even do it myself, because in many ways, I'm defining these things for the first time. For these episodes, I'm coming up with a definition that is intended to suggest certain things, but also limit all kinds of things. And a word like religion has many meanings for many people. And so I just felt I needed to clarify that, both for myself, but also, I hope it would be helpful to listeners that that religion is much bigger than any individual religion per se, or even anything that we would call a religion in this world right now.
Wendy Frase 6:14
Okay, thank you for clearing that up. I do feel that that is helpful so that, as you said, Does segue into our conversation today. Is sacrifice necessary for progress? So first, I thought it would be helpful to define sacrifice. What does sacrifice mean, or at least to you, Bill, and why do you think it's important we discuss it today.
Bill Frase 6:40
Here's my current definition of sacrifice for the purposes of this episode, the sometimes violent death, exile or diminishment of someone or something as an offering to or for something greater. This may be perceived in real time or through retrospective reinterpretation.
Wendy Frase 7:01
Okay, so that's important to understand where you're coming from, because I might think of sacrifice in just ooh, we sacrifice in our jobs or sacrifice in our marriage or things like that, but you are defining it that there is some sort of offering or death for something greater.
Bill Frase 7:24
Well, so here we are, part of our conversation. I anticipate where we're going to go to is the something greater could be your marriage, the something greater could be your job. And so sacrifice may still apply in those circumstances, because, again, it's not just or necessarily about one type of sacrifice. Again, I feel I've constrained it somewhat from the very broad ways that people use the word sacrifice. I think it applies. It can apply. It doesn't necessarily apply, but it may apply to all of these various things that have to do with our lives in this world
Wendy Frase 8:08
I see, well, that helps, because that clarifies things a bit for me.
Bill Frase 8:13
In the last episode, we talked about religion, and we talked a lot about how religion is rooted in stories, and we talked about the dynamics related to these stories. And so I'm going to go back to that idea that myths are the stories that perpetuate the world as it is. What I'm suggesting is, is that we have a religious paradigm that currently encapsulates, rules, dominates the human world at this time. And so that's part of what I wanted to talk about today, was to shift this conversation from what we think of as religion to say no. Could the world be way more religious in terms of sacrifice than we typically think of it being. And so one of the ideas I had for getting into this conversation was talking about some of the sayings that I associate with sacrifice that are very common in human conversation, at least here in what I'll call the Anglosphere. So you know, I kind of worked up a list, and I was wondering, Wendy, if you wanted to mention some that rang true for you in terms of this idea of like, Wow, maybe this idea of sacrifice, really is woven into our society and culture.
Wendy Frase 9:30
Well, and it's true, you have a very long list here, but these are all ones that I have heard of, like selling your soul or no pain, no gain, at all costs, at any price, things like that, no price too high. No victory without sacrifice. I know this is one of your favorites, whatever it takes. So. it's almost like whatever it takes to get it done.
Bill Frase 10:04
Yeah, and that was one I heard, the most powerful I heard it or the most frequent. It was one of the managers in one of the jobs I had would say it all the time, that this is what we do and and it was in the context of a nonprofit where we were helping people with disabilities. But when I think about that phrase now, it's like, well, what does that mean? Because it doesn't seem to provide any limitations for whatever it takes. Do I have to sacrifice my life to achieve these things? Do I have to sacrifice maybe even some of my values, even though we're nonprofit, I just, I see it so baked in with these, just these little phrases that we use.
Wendy Frase 10:49
I like this one too or not. Maybe like is the word, but one person's loss is another's gain. Because that makes me think about, I don't know I even sacrifice in a marriage, I'm losing something for you to gain something, or in a friendship, or if I lose a job and someone else gets it, or even the Super Bowl, one person's going to lose and one person's going to gain. It makes the assumption that for everyone to gain something, there has to be a loss.
Bill Frase 11:22
Right? And it's this idea of sacrifice, loss or cost being a requirement. And again, we go back to the title of the episode. Is sacrifice necessary for progress?
Wendy Frase 11:35
Yes. And that even goes back to our founding fathers. We just talked about historically, because you even brought up a lot of good quotes from just back in the day when the United States was founded. And Ben Franklin said things like, Join or Die. And Nathan Hale said, I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country. And of course, then there is Patrick Henry, give me liberty, or give me death.
Bill Frase 12:02
Yeah. And so we have baked in to this idea. Okay, so I'm going to go back. Myths are about these irreconcilable, polar opposites, and we've just heard these things described in these phrases, or things that come from early American history. It's the idea that there is some irreconcilable conflict. What is the reconciling mechanism in all the things we've just described, even in colloquial American English? It's the idea that sacrifice, loss, cost must be required. And I don't feel that's true, and that's why we're doing this episode, but I feel like we have to point out this overarching reality before we go into the alternative.
Wendy Frase 12:47
And even just to define progress that is going forward or improving something toward a goal, it's positive change. That's what I think of when I think about progress. So is sacrifice? Is it necessary for progress? Or can we make progress by, I don't know, loving each other without the the difficulty, without the struggle, without the bloodshed.
Bill Frase 13:17
When John Dominic Crossan speaks in his book, The Dark interval, and he talks about myth. He talks about this reconciliation happening, and that this, what he considered an important aspect of myth, was that it provided the idea that reconciliation was possible. But he doesn't talk at all about the process for achieving that, and that's why I went into Rene Girard and all these kinds of things. What I'm trying to point out here in this conversation, is that we're dealing with a paradigm, that we are dealing with an overarching perception of how the world works, how everything works, in our lives, in our world, in our institutions, our social processes, the whole enchilada, what we might call the socially constructed reality. I just want to make it clear that this really is an overarching paradigm, and that it's so ubiquitous that most of us don't even think about the fact that we are soaked in this. I'll call it a pseudo reality,
Wendy Frase 14:15
because maybe we need to talk about compromise, because compromise sounds like a softer version of sacrifice. So are they the same or related? Because I know with compromise, people throw that word all around all the time, at work, in a friendship, in a marriage, in a partnership, a business partnership, there needs to be compromise, because both sides can't win or can't be right or can't get their way. And I know, just being around you all these years, I know you are not really a fan of compromise. You haven't seemed to like that word because, well, I don't know. Let me ask you, why don't you like that word compromise? I think I know, but maybe you'd be better to say it because you have actually got me on board with this idea that you don't need to compromise in a marriage or a job or a working relationship.
Bill Frase 15:15
So when I think of compromise, I think of it in terms of loss at the expense of another, and even in a compromise where, let's say, because you can have a two way compromise in a marriage, for example, that both people feel that they're losing. And this, to me, does not feel good. The idea of compromise, to me, it's baked in with this idea of sacrifice. It's part of this human, constructed world that has nothing to do with reality, and it has everything to do with the limitations that we want to place on reality. And so this, I'll call it, this level of consciousness, of compromise, while it's better than just killing people outright, right? It's like you said, it's softer, it's nicer we lose, but we're not losing arms, legs or our lives in the deal. So that seems to be a gain, but it's still this idea that mutual loss is required for progress. And what I'm suggesting here, and this is just, I hope, maybe, a foretaste of what might be the next episode, or future episodes is that, well, what if it's possible for us to expand or elevate our consciousness in such a way that more expansive possibilities become available when we release our attachment to ideas like sacrifice and compromise, and we say, Well, what would it take for everyone to make progress, everyone to gain, everyone to win together in this greater, more expansive reality?
Wendy Frase 16:51
Yes, yes, I like that, and I think you've helped me see that compromise differently. And so it makes me think everyone, every time that I hear someone say, Oh, you have to compromise in marriage. Because, for example, if I give an example here about you and me, I think back on the day when I had a teaching job that I really enjoyed. We were first married, we were living in Ohio, but you wanted to go off to graduate school, so it made me quit even the second teaching job that I found and we moved to Penn State, but I didn't really see that as a compromise, because I looked at it as a you and me together. What is going to progress our marriage, our life, our future, and so I naturally didn't think of it that I was sacrificing something for you, it was we were choosing together to do what we both felt was best for both of us. And I think that that could be possible in a working relationship, say you have a partnership together and two people or even trying to make money or grow a business, what is helpful for the business, it's not about each of us. It's about progressing towards something bigger and better and more enjoyable for all parties involved. So that's how I see now. Compromise isn't necessary, or it isn't even real. It's not even a real idea. Maybe I should say, even though we throw around this word all the time, but other people are thinking of compromise differently,
Bill Frase 18:28
I feel like you're starting to sound like me.
Wendy Frase 18:31
I know I do sometimes living with you all these years do sound like you. But that makes sense, because even this question is sacrifice necessary for progress. I think we should answer that, and I think I know how you would answer that.
Bill Frase 18:48
Absolutely not. Yeah, it's not needed at all. So big, neon sign, no, no, right? Have we cheated the listeners by jumping ahead
Wendy Frase 19:00
Well, I'm sorry if we have listeners. So Bill, why is sacrifice not necessary for progress?
Bill Frase 19:13
Well, I feel like we, I think we've, we've jumped ahead what I'd like. I think it makes sense to take that into the next episode, because I still feel like, I mean, if we're dealing with an overarching paradigm that people are just completely buying into, I don't know, I just, I'd like to draw some of those threads before, before we move to solution mode here. If that makes
Wendy Frase 19:35
sense, absolutely. What would you like to talk about?
Bill Frase 19:38
I think it might make sense to talk about a few systems or institutions. We've talked about the institution of marriage and how you and I do not see sacrifice as we've defined it here and compromise. We don't see these things as necessary, that it is possible through an expansion of awareness and consciousness to incorporate more of what is in order to find a higher and greater solution. And so I guess I'd like to propose maybe that these things are also possible, but also that we have all kinds of aspects of our reality that are feeding us constantly, this idea that sacrifice is a requirement. There's a war going on right now. I mean, there's always wars going on, but there's a war that the United States is really, apparently invested in at this point. And and one of the phrases that I had that we didn't talk about before is collateral damage. And so we have this phrase collateral damage that's used in warfare. Well, what's that? Well, in war, you pretty much assume that people are going to die. This is horrible. You can consider these deaths a form of sacrifice. Any side in the war can consider the deaths of people to be sacrifices and collateral damage. Is almost this idea that, well, gosh, guys, there's just times in war when there are people who just kind of get in the way of our bombs and missiles and they die, and it's sad, but we use phrases like collateral damage to create this, this illusion that these sacrifices, they were necessary, that they're they're secondary. That's kind of what collateral means in that phrase secondary damages. But oftentimes that collateral damage is not just buildings or bridges that they didn't mean to blow up. It's people, I guess, when I think about the interactions of nation states between one another, whether it's in international trade or warfare or whatever, that this idea of sacrifice is just it's baked into the whole thing, that the only way nation states get along is that somebody has to lose in order for somebody to win.
Wendy Frase 21:55
Well, this is a hard one because of the devastation and the wars that go on. Because so many people would say that, right? It's just a sacrifice. These people are a sacrifice. Our veterans are a sacrifice. The people that get in the way are a sacrifice. And yet, we do it all the time. There are, as you said, there are wars going on all the time and but it also then feels like sometimes these wars don't actually progress anything we so we don't get any progress from the wars. And then others will say, Well, how are we going to achieve our differences when there's a standstill and one nation wants one thing and another nation wants another thing? So it is hard to wrap my brain around the idea that they can actually sit down and I guess at this point, discuss, well, what's not even best for ourselves, but for the world and for the planet and for all of us as human beings. And I do think it's possible that that could happen, but it's hard to see it. It's a hard one.
Bill Frase 23:07
My interest in this conversation is just helping us to see how we might be existing in a particular frequency of consciousness and awareness that is not the only one available to us, and that as more and more of us are unwilling to accept this lower frequency of consciousness and awareness, it will become more and more acceptable. But there's so many aspects of our society that are designed to make us think and feel that this is all we have available to us, that all we have is violence and sacrifice, and that a price must be paid in order for gain to be made. And I see this in the media. I see this in the education system. I see it in every structure, every institution on the planet. It takes different forms. It looks different, but it's there.
Wendy Frase 24:00
And another thing is that we often hear that we can only change ourselves. We can't, you can't change someone else. So how is it possible? I mean, I guess I know, in reality, through God's love, anyone can be transformed. So that's my answer. But in regards to just seeing wars, if one person is not willing to see the world as we're all in it together, then how can we sit down and work together?
Bill Frase 24:36
When I think about these situations and circumstances, we have a very particular power structure on the planet at this time that is not going to last. It cannot withstand an elevation in human consciousness. So even as these things exist now, each of us have our opportunities to grow in our ability to reside in this alternative frequency of conscious. And awareness, which, in its own way, changes everything. Because when I I'm going to go back to Episode One,
Wendy Frase 25:07
good, because I need some hope. Bill, that's what I need. I need some hope.
Bill Frase 25:12
Yeah, so you go back to Episode One. I mean, when I talked about truth and reality, I'm talking about unity. And so if unity is more true than separation. I don't know if we've really made that case yet, or if people are all like, oh, unity is the way. But when, when we think about the truth of unity, and if each of us are capable of broadcasting a different frequency, different new, other, greater, more expansive possibilities and potentials. These things become available through the unity that undergirds all of reality available to those who desire them. And so again, I consider myself people like us, people who might listen to this podcast as frequency carriers we have the possibility to, or it's been called hold space for a thing, to hold space for these possibilities and to not compromise. When people say, Oh, well, war is the only way. No, it's not the only way. Oh, well, we have to kill and murder. No, we don't have to do that. This is the way it is. No, that's the way. We're making it up now, but that doesn't make it the way that it has to be,
Wendy Frase 26:24
or I have to give in to my friendship, my partner, my job. No, not necessarily. Well, of course, I don't want to discourage people from getting fired or anything like that, but,
Bill Frase 26:36
but we have these possibilities and potentials available to us, and we because we don't really, yet perceive the power of what is possible through unity. We don't really act on it
Wendy Frase 26:52
Well, And I like conversations like this because, as you said, it gives us an awareness that something more, something better is possible, that we don't need to be stuck in our current modes of thinking, that this is the way it is. Someone recently told me they hate the phrase it is what it is, because maybe it really isn't what we think it is, and that there is possibilities and hope and ways that we can work together for progress that doesn't involve sacrifice. Is that possible?
Bill Frase 27:29
Yeah, if it's not possible, where's the hope? Why are we doing this? I mean, yeah, so absolutely. And I'm excited because we've been hinting at these things in these episodes, and I think maybe we'll be ready in our next episode to really dive into well, what is this thing that makes it possible for people to make progress, to experience gain without the cost of sacrifice, loss,
Wendy Frase 28:01
compromise,
Bill Frase 28:02
Exactly
Bill Frase 28:04
so our listeners just have to tune in for our next conversation. Is that it?
Bill Frase 28:09
Well, isn't that the idea?
Wendy Frase 28:13
Well, I am definitely intrigued. Was there? Was there anything else that you want the listeners to take away from this conversation. Any final points,?
Bill Frase 28:24
I think I will say just that, because there will be people who will probably say, well, you're talking about spirituality and human relations and these kinds of things. And they will come up with all kinds of ideas about well, but material progress, things like new technologies, these types of so called material progress, technological progress, that there will be people who will say, These things are not possible without sacrifice. And I just want to plant the seed that, what if? What if we were to approach our challenges as opportunities for the expansion of consciousness, and instead of assuming that sacrifice is a requirement for this progress or this gain, that what if we were to develop our technologies and our material existence on this planet in a way that did not conform to that paradigm of sacrifice as requirement. Because I think most people just assume, well, this is the cost. This is what it takes to do these things. And at this point, I would say, if you want the world that we have now, then the only way to get to it is sacrifice. If you want a world way better than this one, then sacrifice will never get us there. We will never get there through sacrifice. There's there's another way, and we have the ability to choose it or not.
Wendy Frase 29:48
I like it. I'm on board.
Bill Frase 29:50
I'm glad to hear it, Wendy. If you're not on board, I think we're done here.
Wendy Frase 30:02
Well, Bill, it's been a great conversation, until next time.
Bill Frase 30:06
Until next time. Thank you so much for listening to wake up call for the soul with Bill and Wendy, we hope you'll join us next time. Yeah, I was thinking about our last episode, and I think that there are some things.
Wendy Frase 30:22
Well, at least we can do I was thinking about you didn't start. So this is a good time to break which is not even, it's not even 10 o'clock, yet it's oh no, it is 11. I thought I turned off the feature. You must have turned it off and then turned it on again.
Bill Frase 30:37
Oh, I turned off night mode. Oh, boy, I left the feature on, okay, well, it looks like we've got another bird clock outtake.