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Tyson Popplestone is a Comedian from Melbourne Australia. Join him for a brand new interview each week.
A.J. Swoboda (00:00.984)
I love
Tyson (00:01.976)
Awesome man now, thanks so much for making the time. I was just saying that before we hit record I'm a huge fan of Eugene where you're currently located I've actually just finished up watching a whole heap of the races taking place at Hayward Field for the US track and field trials this Week, I don't know how much you've got to do with the world of running But I'm guessing there would have been a little bit of buzz in the town over the over the last couple of weeks
A.J. Swoboda (00:04.61)
Give me a break, so fun.
A.J. Swoboda (00:25.004)
Yeah, so Eugene, for anybody who's never been to Eugene, is called Track Town USA for good reason. This back in the 1960s and 1970s was like the rage for anybody who was or running from something. So Eugene, it was funny because during the trials,
this last week, the streets were really unsafe because you would see literally athletes, Olympic like runners just practicing running up and down the street. it it was actually, felt really unsafe because it was just, always, you didn't want to obviously hit somebody, but fans everywhere. But there was an electric buzz in the, in the, in the city and that, you know, has now happened multiple times. And I suspect they're going to continue to have those track and field.
those competitions
Tyson (01:27.027)
Yeah, man, I've been to Eugene a couple of times. I'm a huge fan of Steve Prefontaine. I was there a couple of years ago and for me it was like, I'm not sure, I had the most romantic view of Eugene for as long as I could remember since I was a Prefontaine fan. So to get to your town and get to wander around was pretty cool. I was doing all the nerdy.
A.J. Swoboda (01:44.494)
Well, if, but just so you know, Tyson, just so you know, if you, you actually are a fan of Eugene, then you would know the movie Animal House, which was filmed in Eugene with a, a Jim Belushi, this, this famous movie. Well, the building that they filmed the majority of that is actually in the building right next to mine. And you can go down in the basement and the whole cast signed the wall and stuff. So I'm like, I'm like in vintage Eugene here, bro. I'm, Chan, the vibes
I'm channeling, there is a lot coming at you right now. A lot coming at
Tyson (02:18.443)
Dude, awesome. I love it, man. I love it. Yeah, I spoke to a bloke in Austin the other day and I was jealous I wasn't there. Now I'm speaking to you, I'm jealous I'm not there. Dude, I know you're a busy man. You've got plenty on the cards for the rest of the day. So we'll jump into what I'm so excited to talk to you about. I came to you with a little bit of selfish purposes really, because the conversation around this word Sabbath has been one that's sort of recaptured my imagination in recent years. I've got two young boys, a three year old, a one year old, been married for a while. My wife and I have sort
dipped our toes in and out of water of the Sabbath. Loved it when we've done it, but lost track of how to do it effectively with a couple of kids running around who just demand time and attention and the chaos of what was a supposedly restful Saturday morning turned into just another day of the week that was chaotic and crazy. As a little bit of a foundation, I'm fairly confident there's gonna be a lot of people tuning into this podcast that hear the word Sabbath and go, I'm not even 100 % sure what we're talking about.
rightly so, it's a strange word. Maybe to lay the foundation, could just, we could say, hey, when we talk about Sabbath, what are we actually talking
A.J. Swoboda (03:27.01)
Yeah, well, I think it's important to give just, yeah, let me give the general, the kind of the general idea and then I'll actually talk about how this is something that applies to everybody because I actually think it would be wrong to assume that this is just like a religious thing. Let me kind of explain what I mean by that. So obviously the idea of Sabbath,
is rooted in the Judeo -Christian ethic. is literally in the first page of the Hebrew Bible. What you and I may call the Old Testament, or some would call the Older Testament or the Hebrew Bible. The very first page of that story, that ancient story, is of this creator
makes the world, but does it in a, there's a really unique way to the kind of creation pattern. Because God in this creation story doesn't create everything at one moment, which is, even that is a really interesting concept because many times in ancient myths around religious sort of understandings of cosmology, whatnot, the gods would create everything instantaneously or creation or
the earth or the world was the result of this cosmic battle. But in the creation story, God doesn't create with violence, he creates with words. And then does not create all at once. Which is a very interesting detail because this God could do that, but he doesn't. Which apparently means God loves taking his
Like he doesn't do it instantaneously, creates space and time. And then does kind of finishes the whole thing off with the seventh day. A Jewish community would call this Shabbat. Shabbat simply means in Hebrew cease, stop or rest. Shabbat, my son always would say, isn't it funny dad that the word Shabbat starts with the word shh. Like it's built on quiet.
A.J. Swoboda (05:42.378)
It's this idea of quiet. So Jews throughout history, this day has been a day of stopping, ceasing, resting, being with God, delighting with one another, eating good food. And that's the principle is that humans need rest. And what's I think, let's say that's a general idea of what Sabbath is, is it's a day of rest of one in seven rhythm, where one day out of seven, humans need a day to stop, breathe rest, delight and enjoy.
Here's what's interesting about the Sabbath commandment is it was not just intended for the Jews. And we know that because there are all of these commandments in the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible around when you rest, don't make the Gentiles work for you. Don't go shopping on these days. Don't go to war on these days. Don't da da
And even in the 10 commandments, the fourth commandment, which is the Sabbath commandment, that the Sabbath commandment isn't just for the Jews, it's for any alien, any refugee in your midst. Now think about that, because that means that the Sabbath idea is not just for God's people, it's for everyone. This is a universal command. So I could bet you if I talked to any atheist.
any secular person, they would say, I need rest. And I would just like to say the Bible said that before you did, that you need this. And in fact, in the ancient world, true story, you know who loved going to war with the Jews? Everybody, because they were the only ancient people group who would literally one day a week in a war would stop fighting so that even their enemies
Tyson (07:14.847)
Yeah.
A.J. Swoboda (07:35.758)
could have a day of rest. Because rest is not just for you, it's even for the people that want to kill you. Because your enemies need a day away from you too. So what's cool is, rest, but it's for everybody. And I've actually discovered that sometimes some of the best Sabbath keepers are people that do it with no theological conviction, as committed as I am to the Christian faith. I think this is something everybody needs.
Tyson (07:45.237)
Yeah, it's such a strange.
A.J. Swoboda (08:05.41)
We were made for this. Just like we were made to breathe. We were made to rest.
Tyson (08:07.019)
Yes.
I'm like an intuitive level. know it. Like we, as you say, it doesn't matter who you speak to, you know, if you get someone at the right time and go, Hey, like how would, how would 24 hours just of downtime work for you? And they go, know what? I need it, but I just, I don't have time. And I don't know what your algorithm looks like or the advertisements that you receive most, but I would estimate that a good majority of the ones that I receive, uh, time -saving devices, organization devices, productivity devices. And I mean, I'm 37 now.
A.J. Swoboda (08:19.532)
Mm.
Tyson (08:39.019)
I've been around for long enough to realise that the more productive I get, the more time I have to be more productive. And the productivity doesn't necessarily equate to more downtime as you would hope it would. In fact, it just seems to speed up this treadmill of the pace of life. And there's this weird dichotomy that seems to take place in everyone's life because we're all obsessed with this idea of productivity and we're aware of the fact that we're here for limited time and
In fact, maybe that is the birthplace of our desire to get as much done in as short amount of time as possible. And so the idea of saying, you know what though, it's now the Sabbath, it's time to put our feet up and rest. It strikes a really interesting chord with a lot of people because when you're navigating your life with this goal of productivity and getting more done on a practical sense, it really makes no sense.
A.J. Swoboda (09:27.084)
Yep. I just wrote this down, Tyson, and I'm afraid you've given me something that I'm going to have to put into a book, which I apologize. I'll quote you. The more productive I am, the more time I have to be more productive. So what we've actually done is we've used time -saving devices, which is it is interesting to listen to the way in which people in the Western world
We'll talk about time in economic terms. I'm saving time. Let's make time. Set aside time. Let's invest some time. As though we are over time. So we tend to have a very transcendent view of humanity that we are over time. Which I think is a very, that's a big, I think that's a really big problem. And even going back to the first chapter of the Bible.
When you look at a Jewish day, it always starts in the evening. So the Jewish day is when the sun goes down. If you were to ask most Westerners, when does the day begin? They would say it begins in the morning, which really actually exposes our narcissism because we think the day starts when we start. So we have a very like, the day is what I make of it. It's my time, it's my day, these sort of things.
But the reality is, here's what the Sabbath does, Tyson, is it dethrones the ego.
A.J. Swoboda (11:00.16)
It is very difficult to Sabbath and be a narcissist at the same
And here's why, Sigmund Freud was a Jewish psychologist, right? Sigmund Freud, who had many ideas that were not Jewish, he was a Jewish psychologist who talked about when he would meet with Jews on the Sabbath day, he would always talk about that they had what he called Sabbath depression or Sabbath neuroses.
And he would write it in his journal, Sabbath and Roses, Sabbath Depression. And I think what's going on is that people who have learned to enter into the Sabbath, like they're decentered and they're not the center of the room. They're not people who are like the middle of everything because time is no longer something you are over. It is something you are a part
It's not something you are the Lord of. It's something that you are, you are under. I think the Sabbath dethrones all these ideas we have around productivity, that I am what I produce, that I am what I create, that I am my 401k, that I am my friendship circle, that I am my reputation. When you have to take a day a week,
to pull away from all of that, I get why Freud had people who experienced Sabbath depression and Sabbath neurosis. In fact, on almost every Sabbath that I take, which is on Saturday, usually by the end of the day, I'm starting to clamor and quiver to need to get back into the things that make me feel important. Because I've had a day of not feeling important. I feel useless.
Tyson (12:56.074)
Yeah.
A.J. Swoboda (12:56.822)
I like to tell my wife, I don't know what to do with my hands on the Sabbath. I just don't know what to do with my hands. That's what a Pharisee is, by the way. Somebody who doesn't know what to do with their hands. It's like somebody who has to always be doing something with their hands. The Sabbath doesn't allow you to do that. It's redemptive and it's profoundly
Tyson (13:00.597)
Hahaha
Tyson (13:19.081)
Man, that's awesome. was listening to the podcast last night. I mentioned to you about how you were saying. there is a difference between the Sabbath being a day off and the Sabbath being Sabbath. And I mean, a lot of people hear it and myself included to a large degree, I think the way you described it and feel free to clarify like a day off is a day where you're at home, but you're available on email and to phone calls. And I mean, that Twitch that under that underlying Twitch of, of drive and responsiveness is, still there. still active.
Whereas when it comes to a Sabbath, you're sort of putting that temporarily on pause for a greater purpose. Did you want to expand on that a little bit? Because I thought that was a really big difference to sort of clarify.
A.J. Swoboda (13:59.662)
So I'm sitting here talking to you. And as we all do when we're on these Zoom, Google chat, whatever we're doing, is we got our phone right next to us, right? We got our stuff right next to us. My phone is right over here, my office phone in my office here at the university. I've got my phone right here and I've got you here. So just notice the way we've arranged it. There are three different ways at one given moment that I can be pulled in a particular direction.
So I could get a phone call at a moment's notice. I could get a text at a given moment's notice. I'm attending to you. A notification could pop up on my phone. You think about that, that has become so normal for us. We don't even think about it. are, call it death by notification. I mean, we are, our lives are one. There's a Christian theologian named Will Willimon who said, we have become quivering masses of availability.
We are available to everyone all the time, except available to God, to ourselves, and the people that we love the most. I mean, that in itself should make us tremble, because we are often more available to work than we are our children at the dining room
I every time I get passionate about this one, you wanna ensure that your child is unsure of their value and ensure that they will need counseling and therapy for years, check your phone during the dining room table every night. Because what that does is it says to that child, you do that once, it's not a big deal. You do that every day. You are telling your
Over and over and over and over again, I have more important places to be than with
A.J. Swoboda (15:55.907)
That's an almost brand new phenomenon in human history. The idea that we are no longer present in the rooms that we are actually in. I mean, at the end of the day, what this phone has done is it has tempted us into believing we can be omnipresent, which means we can be everywhere we want, whenever we want. And the cost of that is that the people that we actually love are unsure if we wanna be in the room with
That's in history, that's almost a brand new experience. And what it's done is it's, we could be at home. mean, to your point, by the way, when I reference the idea between the difference between Sabbath day and the day off, I'm channeling the thinking of a guy named Eugene Peterson, who writes about the idea of what he calls, the day off for most Westerners is the day that we are at home, but we're answering emails, we're checking phones, we're thinking about work. And he says, very clear.
The day off is not a Sabbath day. He calls the day off the bastard
A.J. Swoboda (17:00.204)
The day off is the day when we are physically at home, but emotionally and cognitively, we are at work. And we all know how that works. It actually makes us more tired. Go on vacation sometime for a week at Disneyland and simultaneously be answering emails and attend to your children at the same time. And you will come back more tired from that vacation than you ever were ever. Vacation at Disneyland is exhausting because we're not actually
Tyson (17:10.603)
Yeah, for sure.
A.J. Swoboda (17:31.948)
The Sabbath is not just a day where we're home. It's a day where we're home. Where we're home. Humans cannot separate the emotion from the body. And we try to, we try to be like, I can put myself in all this. No, you can't. You are a holistic human being. And when you separate your mind in one place and your body in another, you are breaking up the human body and the human soul in a way it was never meant to
The Sabbath mends us back together again so that we can actually be in the rooms that we can be in. I love it when my son says, dad, can I have your phone at the dining room table? And I get to have the authority to say no, because I don't check my phone when we're at the dining room table together. And I don't have authority to ask him to not do it if I'm not doing it
Tyson (18:12.085)
Yeah.
Tyson (18:26.43)
and
Tyson (18:30.167)
It's amazing that you mentioned the phones as a way to answer that question. It is so interesting. mean, I've seen some stats around the increase in youth depression since 2007, over the years since the iPhone came out.
A.J. Swoboda (18:42.642)
Kids literally aren't sleeping, Tyson. I the stats on what these phones are doing to kids is the average, I was just reading stuff on how many times kids are now waking up to check their phone in the middle of the night. It's like four or five times. And more often than not, it's within an hour of when they go to sleep, which is the most important part of the sleep cycle, the REM cycle. I mean, I don't wanna overstate this. I'm not a therapist and I'm not a psychologist. So I need to recognize my boundaries here.
But I can't imagine why we are not connecting the dots between what these phones are doing and increased suicide rates among kids. If nobody is willing to connect the dots between those two, in terms of literally kids are not sleeping.
We have a generation that is not sleeping.
I wouldn't want to live in that world
A.J. Swoboda (19:40.355)
I, goodness gracious, what if the Sabbath thing isn't just about like a day off? What if it's life or death?
that a child as a day, I'm getting passionate talking about this.
In every society in human history, the most vulnerable always pay the heaviest price for the idols of the parents.
And because we worship the gods of productivity, we have put all of our chips on the technology and whatnot. And our kids are paying a freaking heavy price for that. it's Andy Crouch is a famous kind of Christian theologian. He says, he always likes to say, as a culture, we say we don't believe in child sacrifice.
I would say we build our entire society on it. our kids are, their bodies are being torn up, their souls, their hearts, because of our idols. Lord have mercy.
Tyson (20:46.507)
Man, it's it's a whole other conversation. know there's conversations and careers dedicated to this very topic of psychology. and for the time that we have where I wish we could get deeper and deeper into it. There's just so many different directions. I'd love to take it. I'm trying to drive this ship as well as I can. I'm thinking, I mean, on a personal level, that it's so relevant. can see I too have the phone right next to me. I've got some rules.
in my personal journal about, okay, when I can check my phone, what I can check, because the notifications, the dopamine hit, I've got YouTube channels and podcasts, and it's so exciting when you see that things are growing and things are hitting and you've tapped into the algorithm and your thumbnail was good. But it's also incredibly exhausting, because you know there's no finish line and the next video is gonna be the same, and either you're gonna ride an emotional high or an emotional low based on the stats that you're looking into.
A.J. Swoboda (21:30.86)
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Tyson (21:42.923)
So I say that to say, I get the addiction that so many of us are navigating with our phones. But I want to go back to something that you said a few minutes ago, because I think it's really interesting, but I'd love to sort of open it up and apply it more practically. This idea of, okay, a day off is when you're at home. And as you said, but a Sabbath is when you're at home mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, it's a different space to be in. The idea of organizing a day
A.J. Swoboda (21:57.902)
have no idea.
Yes.
Tyson (22:12.415)
Make sense you can go. Okay. Well if i'm very disciplined I can put my phone away. I can put my computer away. I can organize time to be with my family but one thing that I know especially when i'm whether it's driven or anxious or passionate or whatever it's very difficult to to switch off that that mental wheel of go go go go go go go so even though you can be in one place mentally you can be in a very different place
The difference between the day off and the Sabbath sounds as though it's a heart set, it's a mindset. Where do you start when it comes to actually trying to be at home, as you say, rather than just being physically in the room with the family, if that makes sense?
A.J. Swoboda (22:55.426)
That makes sense.
A.J. Swoboda (23:05.174)
I'm gonna give you a question that nobody's gonna wanna ask the people that we're closest to. So this could be roommates, this could be spouses, this could be children, parents, whoever it might be. But this is a terrifying question. And one I've had to learn to ask of the people closest to me. In fact, I picked this up from a therapist who said, ask this question and it will get to the heart of the issue. And the question is this.
asking those people who you're closest to, what is it like to be in a relationship with
Tyson (23:39.445)
Yell.
A.J. Swoboda (23:43.318)
And I've asked that question of my wife. I've asked that question of my son. And unfortunately, for my sake, and fortunately, unfortunately, it's both dark and good. They are truth tellers. And they, and they get at it real quick. for my wife, she is married to at times a very unhealthy three on the Enneagram who is overly productive, seeking to accomplish too much, writing too much, speaking too much.
pastoring too much, too much administration. She is married to somebody who wants to fit in more in a six day week than he should. For my son, he's had to navigate a father that does not always know how to express his emotions and actually say what he's thinking in gas lights and says everything's fine when everything isn't fine and quietly.
is teaching his son not to listen to his gut. And so when I say I'm fine and I'm not, I'm lying to my son and I'm saying, don't listen to your gut. And I'm having to learn to not do that. Because I don't want my son to not listen to his gut. I want him to listen. When you ask questions like that of the people that are closest to you, you really quickly begin to understand the parts of your life that have yet to be healed and integrated.
A.J. Swoboda (25:13.109)
I'm going out of limb here. I'm going to bet that 80 to 90 % of the things that people would say to us to that question are things that the Sabbath would within a short period of time begin to work on us. Because when I have to take a day a week to not produce like that drivenness, just it has to be restrained. When you are at home with your family for a whole day.
you can't hide your emotions. They have to be shared. And if they're not shared, then it's just clear, everybody can see it. I think what I'm trying to say is, actually asking the people that we're closest to, what is it like being in relationship with me? Whatever they say will on some level go back to the Sabbath question.
And that the set, so I would, I would dare anybody listen to ask that question, ask your spouse that question, ask your children that question, ask your roommates, coworkers, and you'll be very troubled with the answers you
Tyson (26:20.716)
I have to wait to a moment that I'm emotionally very stable before I ask that question. Cause I too, I'm married to a three and I know at times she's not backwards in coming forward. She'll be as honest as she possibly can with me, I, which I both love and he's terrifying. Man, AJ, what does Sabbath day look like at the Swabota household? How do you structure it? What are some practices? How does it
A.J. Swoboda (26:33.09)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
A.J. Swoboda (26:44.718)
Yeah, well, yeah, let me first say, show my cards. I resent people that say that they do the Sabbath perfectly because they're lying. And so they're committing the sin of another one of the Ten Commandments, which is don't lie to your don't give false witness. It's not true. Nobody's nobody's arrived. And there's no such thing as a perfect Sabbath. I've been practicing a Sabbath for about 20
And I would say the last two or three years have been the hardest of those 20 years, largely due to the fact that they're boring to me now. The sexiness of it is gone. And it's a lot easier when you have been faithful to the Sabbath for a long time to sort of think like, ah, it's okay if I break
I've been doing it really well, like rewarding ourselves with a little depravity because we've been goody two shoes for a long time. So I would, I want to say actually the last couple of years have just been really not, the Sabbaths have not been what I wish they were. But that I think is actually a sign that I'm doing it well because the Sabbath is not supposed to always feel good. Just like exercise should not always feel
or eating healthy doesn't always taste good or drinking water doesn't always seem exciting. There are times it's wonderful and there are times that it's just breathing. It's not anything. I would say simply right now, Sabbath entails being together, my wife, my son and I, without anything that is being produced. So whatever we do on the six days of the week, we're not doing that on the Sabbath
whatever that is. So the Bible would define that as work. Work is whatever you do on the six days. You need one day to not do that thing. And so that means actually for me as a Bible theology scholar on the Sabbath, I don't read the Bible and I don't read theology because that's work for me six days a week. And I need a day to let the stuff I've been reading all week sink into my soul and my heart. And
A.J. Swoboda (29:13.794)
We eat a lot of good food together.
We go on walks. We watch movies. If I'm lucky, my wife and I make love. If I'm lucky. If I'm lucky.
Tyson (29:25.228)
Yeah, yeah, but I thought you said earlier in the piece you didn't know what to do with your hands on the Sabbath
A.J. Swoboda (29:31.766)
Yeah, yes, Yeah, touche sir. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the word with to me is the word that really stands out. That's what Sabbath has become in this season of time is it's a day to be with, with God and with each other and with myself. So with.
I think those are the biggies of this season of our life, which sounds so profoundly uncomplicated. I will say that it's important to not have this rule that day. And so it's going to integrate some sort of Sabbath from digital technologies. And for me, that is literally just having a whole day away from my phone. I needed it to be detached. And, you know, the next day I come back and my phone is just like hammered with texts and emails
and whatnot, but I need that day to pull away from the
Tyson (30:32.535)
Yeah. I've heard you talk about how you break any of the other 10 commandments and your life's at risk. You're gonna be punished. The consequences of that are quite dire. Where if you break this one and it's celebrated, there's a pay rise. People go, hey, look how productive and hardworking and successful you are. Let's all be more like that guy.
A.J. Swoboda (30:46.069)
yeah.
A.J. Swoboda (30:53.07)
Isn't that so, isn't that so odd? And that epiphany, by the way, was from a very real story when I was pastoring in Portland of just having this epiphany that if I, yeah, if I was to break as a pastor, nine of the commandments, the 10 commandments, if I stole money from the church, I'd lose my job. If I committed adultery, I'd lose my job. If I murdered somebody, I should lose my job. But if I don't, as a pastor, honor a day of rest.
I'll get a raise. And that was a dark epiphany for me to realize that many of our religious institutions celebrate, we value burnout more than we value goodness. And that's deeply troubling to me that we have environments that, there's actually in churches, there's a well -known sort of truism
most elder boards or boards in local churches don't want their pastor to go on a sabbatical because when pastors take sabbaticals, they very often afterwards transition out of that role because they realize that they haven't been healthy. And I think that under the dark underbelly about that is that we would rather have a pastor who's enslaved, who preaches a good sermon than somebody who's actually
Our world is very Egypt -like in that way. And the spirit of Pharaoh is alive and well in our world and sadly in the church from time to time.
Tyson (32:31.969)
That was your takeaway, wasn't it? I heard you say that your wife and I were on day one of sabbatical and you realised, hey, your role at the particular church at a particular time was, it's amazing when you get off a treadmill and catch
A.J. Swoboda (32:39.136)
One day, one day, one day, less than one day. I should say two hours. It was literally the drive out of our town. It took two hours for us to look at each other and say, we've done our job. And it's the right season to transition to the new thing. I think that, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but I think
I think the lesson behind that, and again, as a Christian, I want to be careful to not overstep here, but as a Christian, I believe with all my heart, because I've experienced it, that the God of the universe speaks to people. And I know there are times that I intentionally structure my life to be so surrounded by sounds and distractions so that I don't have to hear God's voice.
A.J. Swoboda (33:34.604)
I think we all I actually think a lot of people don't Sabbath because they don't want to get to the quiet and let the pain of their life come up. They don't want to listen to the trauma. They don't want to listen to the pain from their childhood or origin. They don't want to listen to the difficulty. And so what we do is we just we just keep things loud. So we keep shoving it down, shoving it down and shoving it down. And the more you shove it down, the more toxic you become. Quiet lets that stuff come out and you actually start listening. I think if
If you wanna continue to live a toxic life where you don't deal with reality, don't take a day off rest because it just, the silence is always the breeding ground for the soul to actually speak.
Tyson (34:17.239)
It's amazing how it just crosses over to so many points. Like, I mentioned, my background in the world of distance running and one of the most important things for a distance runner is not only going out and running the sessions hard, but making sure you've scheduled in recovery periods, making sure that if it's not a day off, it's very, very light. You want to hit the performance side of things on race day. Well, you can't just be burnt out. You have to be recovered. And I mean, from a productivity sense, that really seems to make sense to me as well. I look at the...
A.J. Swoboda (34:31.)
Fascinating.
Tyson (34:46.049)
the Sabbath as a performance perspective. Like if you're really that passionate about productivity, maybe this is the thing that's actually letting you down. Like the opportunity to actually have that, you know, to steal your word, that trauma come up and realise where your attention has been wasted and your energy's been wasted and go, okay, well, maybe we can put some, you know, put some recovery in here and then funnel the attention into the things that we can now see more clearly need the attention.
A.J. Swoboda (35:13.184)
Yes. Well, yeah, even on the productivity thing, I mean, the science, Tyson actually bears that out. there's a all the all the people, people like Cal Newport, there's all this stuff on like productivity, atomic habits, all these books that are coming out about, you know, productivity, building habits for productivity and all the literature. It's a a it's a bell curve. There comes a point.
when somebody is being productive, where literally their productivity goes down, it stops because they're being so productive. And it turns out actually the less you work, the more productive you tend to be. Now, I'm not saying that not working is productive, but being very productive for shorter periods of time than being productive for longer periods of time as clearly
played itself out as being, mean, if productivity is really what we're all about, rest is one of the most ironic and almost counterintuitive ways to do it. But it's absolutely necessary. I mean, if you ran 100 miles every
Tyson, I'm not a long, I'm a shh. I love to walk. Okay, how would that, how long could one do
Tyson (36:38.653)
Not long. In fact, as you were speaking, I was thinking about the correlation between the best runners in the world and the amount of miles that have been run there. There is to a point to steal your example on productivity. There is a point that you need to be running if you want to be the best marathon runner in the world. But there are a lot of people attempting to be the best marathon runner out in the world who are taking the approach that you just gave the example of, I'll run more miles and they're not near the top or they might be near the top, but they're not near their peak.
And it's very interesting that there's a point of diminishing return. The same is true in the world of comedy. There's people obsessed with gigging two or three times a night and very rarely are they the funniest. I'm not sure what that is, but it seems that the people who take anything to the extreme are definitely letting themselves down in some capacity in the term, you know, if you wanted to look at it from recovery.
A.J. Swoboda (37:16.663)
Interesting.
A.J. Swoboda (37:23.864)
Huh. Huh. Yeah, I mean, I would imagine in just about any discipline or domain, that's probably the case. that the most, those who are viewed as the most creative or the most prodigious or the most, yeah, whatever, that there's an odd story of downtime.
One of my favorite authors was a guy that some of your audience may know, named C .S. Lewis. He was one of the most incredible Christian literary geniuses in the history of Christianity. He wrote a number of books, many of which one may know called The Chronicles of Narnia, a book called Mere Christianity, which actually is a series of radio addresses. But one of the parts of Lewis's life that is often overlooked is that as a child, his
mother was very sick and he had a lot of time just being at home and he would just have these long protracted periods of just quiet at home. And what would he do? He would just read, just read. And there people who study Lewis would say he became who he was because he had a childhood of rest of just reading. He didn't play video games. He just read books, you know, and that that rest means isn't it interesting the way that humanity even
built that way. My wife would tell you that in the nine months that my son was in her belly, what did he do for nine months? You know, he just kicked. He's hung out. didn't like do anything. What did he do for nine months? I can tell you, he didn't work. He's been out for 12 years now. You know, what's he been doing for 12 years? I can tell you, it's not been work. Um, you know, he's done some homework and stuff, and he's he's learning to grow. And he's, he's a very, you know, he's a hardworking kid. And he's, he's gonna someday get a job and all this stuff. He works hard. I'm not saying he doesn't work hard,
You know, most of his childhood has been Legos and pancakes. I mean, we are born into the world. We start with rest. We were made to start with rest. It's the way it's supposed to be. You don't work and then rest. You rest and then you
Tyson (39:35.669)
Yeah, we're getting close to the tail end of the conversation or it is the tail end. can see we've, know you've got a class to teach in in a few minutes time. And so maybe, maybe to put a pin in this thing, was, was interested just to speak at the outset, you said religious, non -religious, spiritual, non -spiritual. However you see yourself as a case to be made about the benefit of Sabbath, taking a day of rest. But there'd be plenty of people who go, man, like I get
but my life, unfortunately, the expectations of my family, expectations of my boss, maybe my own expectations, it's not gonna allow for it, it just can't happen. Where does a person like that even start the journey towards trying to schedule a day of rest?
A.J. Swoboda (40:17.172)
Mm. Mm. Yeah, I mean, this is extra extraordinarily practical and a question that I get almost everywhere that I go when I talk about this. And the extreme example is, okay, you talk about this idea of rest and you talk about this idea of stopping a day a week. And AJ, isn't that just a mark of privilege?
A.J. Swoboda (40:45.07)
Isn't it a mark of somebody who's got wealth and influence to be able to have a day to stop? What about the single mother of six? Are you honestly gonna tell her she should get a whole day? Which ironically, if you were to ask her if she wanted that day, she would say, yes. But the reality is, and this is at least my philosophical responses, that the poor,
don't rest because the rich never rest. And you when you look at something like Chick -fil -A, which is an organization over here in the States, they shut down a day a week, every week, for people to be able to go home and be with families. They lose billions of dollars every year. That is a person in power saying, we are going to give up money so people can rest.
I say that to say wherever somebody rests, there's a price tag. Something must be paid. It's either a boss who fights for the person to get a day of rest, or it's somebody being willing to give up something for a day of rest. It costs all of us something. And in my experience, have never, I've never met two people. I've never met somebody who used to keep a Sabbath. So anybody that does it, they almost always do it because it's so life -giving.
And I've also never met anybody who accidentally kept a Sabbath. You to be really intentional. So I would say this, start with an intentional period of, start with a half a day. Do half day on Saturday and practice half a day on Saturday, something and taste it. See what it's like. And my gut tells me if anecdotes and stories that have surrounded me for the last few years since writing some verse of Sabbath,
play themselves out, it's a foothold and it won't stop because it's so awesome that you're gonna fight to have the whole day. And so I'd say start with half a day and you're gonna find that it's so life -giving, you're gonna have a hard time not fighting for a whole
Tyson (42:48.687)
For sure the one thing I notice even man the example of a single mother with six sounds like a tough gig I've got two kids with two parents and that feels like a tough gig That was the one question my wife asked me to ask you before we go is how do you actually do it? With the chaos of children running around because even you know being fully their phone away the chaos still
A.J. Swoboda (43:10.446)
Yeah, well, I've learned the hard way to not speak to what the mother's experience is like and not over speak for what they experience as moms. But I can say this as the father and the man in the household, the Sabbath requires me to step up so that my wife can have rest on the day of rest. And I think this is a call to men to step up
serve in a heightened way so that the woman who has spent all six days being a good mom has a day for rest herself. So I think you and I, we need to play our role because our wives and the moms in our life deserve rest as much as we do. And so I'm not gonna speak to what it's like to be a mom, because I've never been mom, but I know my wife needs a husband
can plan a couple meals on Saturday so that she doesn't have to do anything like
Tyson (44:11.723)
Yeah, all right, that could be my next step. The meal preparation begins later tomorrow afternoon. Hey AJ, I got my eye on the clock. I know you gotta go. Man, hey, thank you so much for the time. For everyone listening, I'm gonna link AJ's website with access to his books and everything else in the description to this episode. So if you wanna check that out, make sure you do. AJ, thanks so much, man.
A.J. Swoboda (44:14.958)
There you go. There you
A.J. Swoboda (44:31.33)
Hey Tyson, I do a lot of podcasts and you are really good at asking really good questions and you're a unique, you're a unique host and I'm really grateful for the work you
Tyson (44:47.713)
means a lot. Thank you, brother. I'll cut that off there, Thanks, brother. That's