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Is it better to stay in it for the kids? Each story is unique. Listen to Will tell his story of his parent's divorce and the effect it had on his life.
Your no bullsh$t guide to divorce with experienced attorneys from New Direction Family Law and guests and professionals who have been there. Unfiltered discussions to help you move from victim to victorious and from bitter to better.
Elizabeth: - [00:00:00] Hi everyone. I'm Elizabeth Stephenson with new direction, family law
Sarah: partner in new direction.
Elizabeth: Just want to start off by saying Sarah has had a really hard
Sarah: week, new direction, family law, also her partner in crime sometimes. Yeah, night out. We haven't had a night out in a while,
Elizabeth: but y'all went out for Christmas
Sarah: birthday the other night.
Yes. So we're all getting vaccines so soon. We're going to have another nice outing
Elizabeth: having people back in the office, like
Sarah: den back to the office. And we have people in our podcast studio today. Joining us too. I forgot Denny.
Jen: We have got someone very near and dear to my heart. , one of my best friends along with his wife.
, not here. , no. Janet, his , wife's not here, but shout out [00:01:00] Jetta cause you're you
Sarah: better listen to this episode?
Jen: , , we'll here with us and, , we've known each other for about 13 years, so we've had some great times and I always love our intro story because the day that we'll and I met.
Whenever he was in college at ECU, and we had gone bowling at the bowling alley that they had on campus. And we were walking down some steps and he slipped and fell about down about three steps. And I laughed and he turned around and I was dating his friend at the time. And he was like, this one, this is the one you're going to pick.
And we became super fast friends.
Sarah: Nice go pirates
Elizabeth: ECU. But you're doing the Wolfpack
Sarah: side.
I also went to ECU for one semester. Yeah, my freshman first semester.
Yeah. I did a tour. I went to ECU first and they went to NC state for a year. And then I finally settled on the best undergraduate school in our state Appalachian state university. [00:02:00]
Jen: Yeah.
Elizabeth: , I went there for graduate school, so I didn't get the party.
Jen: I went there for graduate school. Do, and I still got the party.
Sarah: I went for my first semester and I partied
Will: , I did not go there at all, but I did party quite
Sarah: a bit. Oh, we treat
Will: very quickly. I'm just trying to catch up with everything. But no. Yeah. When DC for undergrad got a lot of it's party bug, mostly with you. You're
Jen: welcome things. I won't apologize for. Talking about today, Ms. Bordeaux, we are talking about, ,
adult children of divorce. . , we brought will on today because he has a different perspective and experience as a child , whose parents divorced whenever they were younger.
Also, my parents were divorced whenever I was seven. So it gives, but we've had different experiences. Probably with the divorce itself and then afterwards. So we thought we would talk about that because it does affect a lot of kids. And we know that [00:03:00] sometimes can be a huge barrier for someone starting to initiate a separation because of fear of how it will affect their children.
So we wanted to shed light from our different perspectives and, , Got , some cues here, some over the thoughts that I read from other people from the interwebs. Perfect. And we'll elaborate on that and get our perspectives. And then of course, have you guys definitely talk about what with clients and their kids?
, why don't you gotta throw it right over to you.
Sarah: she must have a lot of your secrets.
Jen: Oh, don't worry. I'll be easy. . I was seven, whenever my parents separated and I can remember it very vividly as to how everything went down. So what about for your situation? How old were you? Do you remember?
Did you have any. Inkling that this was going to happen or, , how was that for you when you were younger? Yeah.
Will: So when my parents, for the most part split up, I was about five years old. We were living in Brooklyn, New York at the time. , my two older brothers and my sister, , [00:04:00] And, , at that age, it's , you remember bits and pieces.
You remember some of the heart, the more significant pieces of it, but I don't know all the nuance that say my siblings would know to say whether , , it was in the writing was on the wall or what have you. , my. Biggest memory of, it was the moment that it happened when the split technically happened.
, it was, I think our argument over where we were going to spend vacation, , maybe, and, the argument escalated and to the point where, , most of us, my, my siblings are maybe eight. 10 and 12 years older than me. So we were all still in that eight around that 18 or under age.
Eventually the police came in to help break up some of argument and then my father left and that was the biggest, , memory I have for it. And from there, I remember that if I wanted to see my father, he was at my grandmother's house. , that's for the most part, the memory that I have , of the [00:05:00] incident.
Elizabeth: Can I ask a question? Because a lot of clients, I don't know if you have this Sarah. , they don't, they think that , they may be arguing or they're not getting along, but the kids don't know any thing. And I've always been of the philosophy. And that's what my training has been is that kids are really smart and they pick up on things.
So do you remember anything other than that, , that leading up to that?
Will: No. No, I can't say that. , I do. , as far as. , any other arguments or any, , tension or anything like that. I think that was just since it was so vocal , and I happened to be there , at the point, , I would imagine in retrospect, .
I probably was shielded a lot from that. And I noticed, as I grew up, my siblings did a lot of the shielding. , they would always usher me to another room or, hold me closer or something. So I couldn't see what was going on. , so I would imagine that was probably the situation. Was this sense at that time when it happened, Most of my siblings, weren't in the house at the time.
, [00:06:00] there was nobody to shield me at that moment. So I caught the full force
Sarah: of it in police showing up. That's obviously going to be an escalation and something that doesn't happen very often, but people also kids become normalized to it too. , they understand what's happening, but soon it's just.
But they see their parents and they think that's what's normal and that fighting , is love, which is dangerous.
Jen: I was going to say from my experience, , like I said, I was seven when my parents split, but before that I would hear my parents argue and now being an adult, I know that obviously married couples and, , adults, they have disagreements, but the arguing that they were doing, , And now I'd know so much more backstory to this situation, of course, but the arguing they were doing was normal to me.
, my dad raising his voice so much, there was a time that my mom was gone to work and my dad, just whatever, like his trigger really got flipped. And as soon as it escalated to that point over something super small, , my brother, all, but threw me in a bathroom, shut the door. And he took the brute force of everything that went down after that.
And all I could hear was shit being banged around and I was.[00:07:00] Scared to death. And that was the one and only time that happened. But shortly after that, My parents separated. And so it's what was going on before that obviously what I thought at that time happening was normal, but I knew that all of that arguing and that just tension, you can just feel that as a kid, even though you may not understand exactly what's going on behind you.
Will: Yeah. And it's staged as well, , context, perspective and experience is key. Where, , I may see something that as normal arguments, my brother who's eight years older than me might see it a little different, or he might know that this is what this is going to lead up to that I don't have that perspective to, , decipher
Sarah: just yet.
And he might've had an experience before you came along before, or when you were a baby of your parents getting along and working out and he saw that this isn't the same as what he remembers when he was younger. . So w
Elizabeth: did you have conversations with your parents about. The separation or what did they say to you?
Or was it just, , Oh, we're separate. Everybody just didn't talk about it, but yeah, [00:08:00]
Will: when it happened, I didn't have a lot of conversations. , again, , just being five, right? It was just not at that top, , at that spot for me to have those conversations, I'm sure some of those conversations may have happened with my older siblings.
, the older , I got inklings here and there, , little pieces here and there from my mother and, , more pieces from my father. My father was a little bit more upfront with it , , the philosophy he followed was, , I'm going to talk to you like a man, so you can grow into a man and you have this perspective thing like that.
, so I got a lot more from him. , I'm not that, and my mother is a little bit more private and a little bit more withheld and withdrawn. , so I got some pieces of it, but not a lot.
Elizabeth: Yeah. I have a lot, , not a lot of clients, but especially if you're the spouse that's been hurt or doesn't want to leave, you want them, they want to tell the children what happened , and why.
Sarah: Yeah. It can be vindictive. And don't realize that your feelings about your spouse, maybe your child doesn't need to know the extent of them. , Which is just mean that's something we can [00:09:00] counsel our clients on, but if they're going to do what they want to do and say to them what they want to say.
And a lot of times when they're in that like mindset, this fiery, , angry stage, it's hard to control and it leaks to the children, which is it's hard, right.
Jen: With my situation. We, I remember vividly my parents bringing us into their room and telling me and my brother. Telling us that, and I don't remember the exact verbiage that they use, but that they were separating, the dad was leaving and I was a daddy's girl to the core.
, a part of me always will be, but I'm an adult now. , and I just remember being, like, I remember I was staring at the old, like Belks like paper catalogs used to, I was, I remember just staring at odd the things you remember from her staring at that and just thinking No, like I'm not okay with this.
And I just remember being , very upset and crying and then just wanting to get anywhere I could, but at that house. And so I left and went up to my best friend at the time at her house up the street. And that was my outlet. And I just remember sitting with her and crying because I didn't. I want my parents to see me [00:10:00] upset, even though I've always been very close with my parents, especially my mom.
, but I remember being very upset at that, but they, nobody ever told me why to your point of what you just said. It was just that we're not agreeing on some things. We don't know if this is going to be permanent, but for right now, dad's going to leave. They knew damn well, it was going to be permanent.
You know what I mean? But.
Sarah: And sometimes there's not a one. Why, , how do you explain that to a kid? Yeah,
Jen: the issue with my mom didn't feel like it was her place. And also she knew how young my brother and I were. That means Jeremy was like nine or 10. , but several years later, I think my brother picked up to the Y way before I did, but nobody's still told me my mom didn't feel like her.
It was her reason to tell there was lots of infidelity, apparently. , she didn't want to ruin the image that I had of my father. And so when I finally, I can tell you how I figured it out. Me and my brother and my dad were in upstate New York and that Garth Brooks song that thunder rolls comes on.
Great song. But my brother, instead of singing and the thunder rolls, he's saying, and my daddy knows. [00:11:00] And I was like, very confused by this, but then I was finally putting two and two together Oh, because the song is obviously about, , the person being out cheating. Oh, I didn't know that.
Sarah: Oh my gosh, I'm going, gonna listen to it.
cut the lights down low and have a drink, have some like bourbon to get into
Jen: rustic fields to make sure those are the third, the extended version too. No, you're fine. , and so then I put it together, but I was. I don't know, probably I guess, late middle school or early high school or so, but then I felt like I'd been lied to, and then I was upset all over again.
Like you guys should have just told me, then I was just mad. I felt like I've been lied to. Whatever it, , is what it is, but, I definitely remember that and, completely understand why they didn't tell me, cause I wouldn't have been able to handle that. Like I wouldn't have known what to do with that information.
Elizabeth: Why is it, , and then this is this from the other perspective is why does that mean. Did you want to net, , made a difference to you guys.
Jen: Oh, I have no idea, but as a kid, you want to know, okay. My parents are separating. Why you want one? You want to make sure the whole, it's [00:12:00] not the kid's fault like that immediately.
Of course, I went through my mind. . I'm an inquisitive person anyway. So I just wanted to know,
Sarah: Did you have any of those feelings? What happened? , you're five. So what happened? Where were things at? Like when you were seven, eight years old? ,
Will: I don't know if I was as fixated on the, why.
Because the situations are fairly different, like you mentioned, , I think there was a looming and especially since of how, and when it happened, that there was a looming a feeling as to why it happened, , I believe I picked up on a little bit more and more, a little bit more and more as I got older, and different stages.
So eventually. After just being shocked under what was happening in the argument and it split. And then the very soon after sub , subsequent move to North Carolina, that is after I passed that part. It's okay. , I know they're not together. And I know there is a reason I don't really care about that reason as much as I don't like the fact that it, that [00:13:00] they are split.
So I think my fixation was more on. Why aren't they dig? Wow. Why can't they be together rather than
Sarah: why aren't they together? So you moved to North Carolina with one parent, or did both parents moved down there? I
Will: moved with my mother and my stepfather at the time.
Elizabeth: Cause our judge does, , start with the premise of, , joint custody that you should have equal time with both parents when you were still in New York.
Will you stay in your dad?
Will: Yeah, , I was going there maybe just as we will always went to my grandmother's pretty often anyway, because she lives so close and it's the grandmother and my mother, my father's side. , and , he was there, so it was just. The quick, you just understand it as, okay.
I guess dad's living here now. , , but to get back to what you had said, not too long ago, where, , the person who doesn't necessarily want to split versus the person that does. , I think that was mostly on my father's side, who didn't necessarily want to split, so he didn't argue a lot too.
Me moving to North Carolina. , he wasn't thrilled about it. , be it was being [00:14:00] my closest older brother, , while my oldest brother and my older sister, , they were already outside of the house. , so he didn't argue too much. He didn't cause too many problems. , and do you want him to. I, I don't think I've ever had that issue where it was like, why'd you let me go.
, it is, this was an understanding that supposed to be with mom. I went with mom, you had already left to go live with grandma. So I just go, wherever mom goes.
Sarah: That's just the way it is. And you're a child you just do as I do, as you're told and what you've grown to, to know at that point.
Will: Yeah.
It, , there was no reason, again, I wasn't fixated on that part enough to focus on that portion. It was just, okay. They're not together. I don't quite like that. But, I do live with mom. I'm supposed to live with mom, so wherever she goes, I go.
Elizabeth: And where did you come to? To feel that, how did you come to feel that way to be with mom?
Will: Yeah, I [00:15:00] think it was just because of the, part of the fact that Deb went to the grandmas. It was just always the. It the understanding that, okay, that's going to go, this is mom's house and you get that feeling. You can just say, Oh, I'm going to mom's house for the weekend. You just automatically cling to your mom.
Sarah: Yeah. Jen, what was your first schedule? Like how much time did you spend with both parents? Do you remember any of that part?
Jen: Oh yeah. , my dad. So when , he left, he went to Connecticut. So we were here in North Carolina. He was in Connecticut. He definitely I've
Sarah: lived in Connecticut.
Jen: He's originally from upstate New York.
So I think he was, he also had other motives to go back to Connecticut if we're reading between the lines. And, , so he left and when we were younger, my brother and I would go up there, they never did a formalized custody agreement or child support. I think. One, my dad knew he didn't have a pot to piss in.
Like he knew that he didn't have a leg to stand on, to fight my mom for anything. And he knew that at the time, like he just wasn't the [00:16:00] best equipped to being the dad that we needed. Whereas my mom was like a mom would suck it up and figure it out, , and I think after he left my brother and I, when we were younger, there were several summers we really didn't visit during the year.
, it just didn't really seem super plausible, but in the summers starting out, we would go up for a month at a time. But as we got older, , and friends became very important. It was less than less. I grew up a dancer and my dad didn't miss a dance recital in 14 years.
So he always came down , for important events, , which were super appreciated and, everything, but there's a lot of little stuff that, , just as a by-product of him being several States away, that he missed out on, , , he was there and they never had a formalized schedule.
It would just whatever we figured out along the way, but
Elizabeth: how can I can't if it's hard for me to fandom that you can. You can nurture a relationship in a month, out of the year, maybe I'm wrong. I I don't know. .
Sarah: How often do you see your father when she moved to North Carolina?
Will: Since most of my family was still in New York, , we made the trip to New York once a year.
, and I would [00:17:00] usually spend all of the summer in New York, , staying with my oldest brother, and would usually get time with my father, however, for our ever long that good while I was up there.
Sarah: Yeah,
Jen: that's good. To your point, it is hard to, , as a kid, I think you just take what you can get.
I was always super excited to go up there and, but , looking back now, it is, it's very hard to nurture that relationship. , and I do think as you get older, that gap gets bigger and bigger because there's just more in life to deal with. , as an adolescent or high school, your friends become very important.
You've usually got extra like extracurricular activities and you're going on family vacations with. , I don't want to say like primary family, but I, when I was with my mom, so she wants to have vacations with us too, , so I think then insert in college and stuff like it just, that gap got bigger and bigger as we got older.
Yeah.
Will: Yeah. I think, , that's almost , as, just as phased as well. , as far as nurturing the. A relationship when you're youngest, before you get to high school, middle high school age, your [00:18:00] friends, and you actually get things that you're attached to. I don't think it's very easy in that youngest age because this, the presence is what nurtures our relationship in a lot of cases.
Yeah. , once you get to that middle task wage, it's not necessarily a presence as, in your perspective, a phone call goes a little bit longer, further away than it did when you were younger. , and then when you become. Past that when you're in college and you put an adult or a pre adult or young adult, ,
And so , my relationship with my father became best once I was. Made college after my mother passed in 2007. , and before he passed, two years ago, , because I understood things a lot better. I had a lot of different perspective.
I had a lot more wisdom and I understood, I picked up a little bit more on the smaller things that nurtured our relationship rather than just a phone call or present. So like the fact that he had to on my birthday, he wanted to give me 25 bucks. I probably make [00:19:00] more than my father has ever made in his lifetime, but for him, that's what he has to do he thinks I expect him to do that on my birthday.
And so he's going to do it that at the very least. . ,
Elizabeth: add to anybody's relationship changes with their parents. Wouldn't they hit adulthood and it's more , like my mom's my best friend now. And so that is different, that you don't need, I don't need to love her, but Oh, it was deer every day.
Jen: Right?
Sarah: It's a completely different perspective. Everything is so easy or not easy, not at all when you're a kid, but like things are simplified in your mind about what relationships are and how family should be. My family is not the same as that family. , what's wrong and you can't really grasp it or understand the dynamics of relationships.
And my parents are still together, but there is definitely a time when I was younger, that there was issues and it's much clearer now. , they've told me now, but, , there was a lot more fighting. Voices were raised. , Often, and you think that's normal, but yeah, I would go to friends' houses and it wouldn't happen there.
And it would happen when my friends were at my house and they would see [00:20:00] it and they'd be like, are you okay? , so you , can you understand where, when you're older Oh, that wasn't normal and that wasn't okay. They stayed together. They worked through it. And they're still together.
I don't know. They've been married forever, obviously to me.
yeah. So people can do that. Relationships still can still work and they're so happy. And I have a great relationship with my parents now, and I love them to death, but I. I think as we get older, we realized like, while relationships are hard, like period,
Elizabeth: we get into relationships and we realize how hard we raise our
Will: voices.
Sarah: Yeah. , you're still trying to navigate this world and if there's kids around, I don't have kids, , just knowing what I went , if I do have kids, I don't want them to. Be witness to that. , that's why I think you learn
Elizabeth: a lot. Yeah. , separated one, John thorn was two and that's the reason I did it is my voices are getting raised.
I was locking myself in the bedroom. Like I don't want my son to grow up thinking, this is what a relationship looks like. And. If I wait another, I was worried as if I waited till he was five or seven. No, I'm really gonna fuck him up. Yeah, you don't [00:21:00] mean to, I don't think it'll be so bad that we could get through it,
Sarah: , and that's all he knows his mom and dad living , separate
Elizabeth: house, and it's always, that's just his normal and I felt like I stayed, I was stuck for 18 years and yeah.
It wasn't going to be it. Wasn't going to grow up into a good young
Sarah: man and people are different. It's are different. They're Permian, we're all grow into these individual adults and, , as long as I've known him, he seemed, , he's very chill.
He's very like thoughtful, , processes information. And I think just hearing you today, talk about you as a kid. , I get that exactly when you're five, just okay, this is happening. Let me process this. They're doing this, they're doing that. I'm just going to be chill about it. I can pick up on that same personality type, , if you have a kid that has a different personality or maybe even some of their own issues, it might affect them differently and it's hard to predict.
Right?
Elizabeth: [00:22:00] So as you look, as you guys look back, would you wanted your parents
Jen: to stay together a hundred percent now? Really well. I think like what Sarah was saying that as you get older, you understand the complexities of relationships. And , obviously when my parents separated, I was a kid. But my dad was an adult and I'm not saying that my dad and my parents obviously have been divorced for many years now.
My mom has been remarried for 24 years on Monday. , but
Sarah: then as he's listening, [00:23:00] I missed yes. Yeah.
Jen: Probably listening. , I grew so much from childhood to adulthood and just working now in the field that I work in, , with you guys, We just come to, I like to take a step back and look outside the box of what's going on.
And I think even though my dad is an adult and obviously he's changed in these years. I see now, like what will was saying with understanding those small things. I know how my dad shows love. It's the same way he showed love then. And I understand that about him. It may not be the way that I feel most loved or whatnot, but , that is his love language.
And I get it. So I know that when he's doing those things, even though they might see grandiose and very dramatic, like that's his way of trying to show, , I know I haven't been able to be here every second of every day for things. This is me. This is, , I love you kind of thing. And I've never questioned a day in my life.
I've been very blessed in that regard that I've never questioned, even though my dad left, if he loved me or cared for me and my brother very much, because that answer has always been a hundred percent. Yes. That being said. I [00:24:00] cannot imagine. I think my life would have been very different. Had my parents stayed together.
, my stepdad, I mentioned him on a different episode. My bonus dad. He's amazing. He's one of the most selfless people I know. And I think , he's perfect for my mom, not to say that they're always perfect again, about relationships. Everybody has arguments and nuances and everything, but, , he was exactly the kind of person that she needed in her life.
And I will forever be grateful for that. So even though it sucked, then. And I think it's probably my parents going through a divorce has probably made me see life in a little bit different of a lens in addition to working in the divorce field and having gone through a divorce, it's all divorce. I don't know if I'm the baby.
Yes. Believer of that. Everything happens for a reason, but I do believe that we can find the reason in everything. , and that for sure. Yeah, there's a no country
Elizabeth: song out just like that.
Jen: You don't have the Garth Brooks song,
Elizabeth: but it is best you are where you are because of those. Talk to him. It's not me.
It's you? And the missed opportunities. And they were missed and it
Jen: almost made me Jordan,[00:25:00]
Sarah: building our soundtrack
Elizabeth: music on hold and they won't let us change it. And that's the kind of stuff we'd be like, Tammy. Why mad and
Jen: What about you?
Will: No, absolutely not. , there was a time up until maybe my fifth, sixth or seventh birthday. That was my wish. , every time I blow out the candles, but, , that went to the wayside very quickly.
Soon after, as I started to gain that perspective, ,
At the time it just made sense. It would have been better in my life for them to be together. Cause I, I didn't like the whole being apart thing, but now very quickly after, , I realized, , other would have been extremely unhappy. , and I knew that maybe by middle school, just seeing them interact, , okay, she's not happy that dad's here and I'm happy to dance here, , now I'm not happy because my mom's not happy.
So yeah. Yeah. That's
Elizabeth: tough.
Sarah: And you had to fix a lot more than them just not being together, right?
Will: Yeah, exactly. It's okay, there's a little bit more to this than [00:26:00] just them being together. Just figuring it out. ,
Elizabeth: , so what advice can you give? , Sarah and Emma, when we talk to clients that, , haven't separated, but want to one is, , I want to talk to their kids or we want to stay together.
What would it's been helpful for you guys
Sarah: as an adult looking back, what would you say to your parents? Yeah.
Elizabeth: you wanted your parents to say to you about the divorce or the separation? What would have helped you?
Jen: He gets it's so hard. Cause it's so age dependent, , what will would have remembered or would have hit home with him at five? So one, I think it would depend upon the age range. , but me being seven, I think.
, I don't remember. And not to say to my parents, didn't say this, , just reassuring and it's going to have to happen along the way of this is not happening because of you. . And I know that this is tough and I hear you. , but this needs to happen, but it has nothing to do with you, mom and dad still love you very much kind of thing, but not just at that conversation of we're standing up, like that needs to happen.
Yeah. Several times, even when, , when we become brats as adolescents, I don't think we all was [00:27:00] ever Brad, because he's just, he's amazing.
but, , , the reassurance of that, because , like I said, just catching up having that different lens, but, and kids. Are absolutely resilient. , like we both have said, we can't imagine, I think about how much strength and just independence and autonomy that my mom gained and wherewithal and motivation just to I've got these two kids and they're the loves of my life.
And I'm going to keep on going and do what I gotta do. , cause there was even a point that her and my bonus dad hit a little Rocky patch and she was like, We'll figure it out, either way. That's the other thing is this resilience that you build, but that's also for kids. And so going through that, with that reassurance teaches kids that as well, instead of teaching them that an unhealthy or unhappy relationship is what it's supposed to be.
So I think just that reassurance along the way of that. While you might feel like you're in the middle of this because you are our child or children. You are not the cause of this. You're not the, like who say the rope and the tug of war.
Will: . Yeah, definitely. I think , the couples who are considering that, for their kid's sake, they need [00:28:00] to know that , it's not just .
Raising your children, when you first have them, there's no right or wrong way to do it. , , figure out whatever you think is the best way to base it on how well you think your child is able to process, , conversations or information along those lines. And just give it a try.
I don't fault my. Parents for not doing it as much more. , because I also know our family dynamic and how we are about to sharing, , feelings and things like that. , we love each other very much, but we show affection on a very different level. , but yeah, I would say, definitely at least try to put something out there, , have the conversation and to Jen's point, , Do the best you can to reassure them that, ,
this is not connected to you. This is very isolated to us. This is how, , just like you would have a conversation about the birds and the bees. This is what happens sometimes between a man and a wife, it has nothing to do with their children. It has nothing to do with what you're doing or where we live or whatever, [00:29:00] it's that, , we've hit some kind of disagreement patch or whatever, and we are, this is how we were working to it.
Or this is. Subsequently, this is what has become of it.
Sarah: Yeah. And I think another point is, , they always put these non-disparagement clause and separation agreements and court orders, but you might be really angry at your spouse or ex-spouse and think they're a terrible person, but your kid still loves that.
I'm like, , don't mess with that. , keep those feelings separate to the best of your abilities. I know it's hard, ,
Will: I think that, again, it's more so probably because of my age, I don't think I recall a bad thing that was said about my father from my mother or, and definitely not from my father.
My father is still worshiped the ground that she worked and walked on until she passed. , but I never noticed that
Elizabeth: all separated and divorced. Parents would do that. Oh, yeah. , that would be mind blowing or shattering.
Will: That would go just as long as can
Elizabeth: [00:30:00] even
Jen: imagine. Yeah. Yeah. I can't imagine how tough that is.
I think about how tough it was will bless his heart. When I went through my divorce will as a mutual friend, very close mutual friend between me and my ex and I felt bad enough talking shit about my ex in front of me. So I can imagine how that is when they were our mutual friends with yeah. Are kids in this book that gets frustrated.
My mom did a very, and I don't know how she did it, but I guess girlfriends her girlfriends and her sisters that's who she vented to, , but she never did that in front of my brother and I, even once I understood what happened, she still wouldn't and I will forever be grateful for that because yeah.
W kids are resilient. And just like we tell our clients that things will get better as, and it sucks like when you're in pain and you're going through all this time moves so slow, but as you're going through it, things step a step forward is still forward progress. And so as you're going through it, Things will get better and things get better for your kids too.
Kids are so like in the moment, almost like dogs they're in the moment. And so they're going to, as they grow, [00:31:00] they're going to have friendships and extracurriculars. They're not going to be so stuck in that relationship. . As long as they are supported and
Will: encouraged, like you might be when they're younger.
Elizabeth: Yeah. But you get the other, you get the flip side of that, where. The parent's world revolves around the child, , and that can be just as harmful to
Sarah: pressure. Yeah.
Jen: So I'm going to talk about Sarah
Elizabeth: never happened to me, but I could understand
Sarah: that it does put a lot of pressure on the, and I freak out and do the opposite, which is getting, this is getting too personal.
I'm about to use this as a therapy session, but yeah, , I think the takeaway here is we talked a lot about how. These adults who are children, went through divorce and how their perspective has changed over time. And I think knowing that as you go through a divorce and that things might be tough on your child now, have healthy communication to the extent that you should communicate to your child about these things obviously appropriate and [00:32:00] developmentally.
And if you're financially capable, which a lot of people , people of all. Income levels go through divorce, , obviously seek out like therapy or some kind of help if there, if that's needed for your children for yourself. But a lot of times you can't afford that. , just do your best as you can in life.
You can do
Elizabeth: any other words of wisdom, YouTube that you can feel like you want to impart.
Jen: Before we parked. I have one last question for you.
Sarah: So now
Jen: you're a married father of two. So do you think that your parents going through a divorce, do you think it made you look at getting married differently? Consider it more strictly or thoughtfully. Or were you just no fairy tale? Let's do it.
Will: Yeah. I think that definitely is somewhere in your mind.
, for most people probably, but, , , it wasn't as overly encompassing, , in my mind. I got married late enough. , maybe at 28, I think I was 27. I don't know how old I am anymore. , [00:33:00] so it, wasn't at the forefront, but you do keep it back there where it's , okay, , Is this, , is this a good relationship?
Do I see any warning signs, similar to my parents? , some of the things that you do fixate on, as far as what you've considered their warning signs could have been there, warning signs to you, or what you think was their problem. You say. , do we have that same problem? Is there anywhere in, in our case?
, and I think in my case specifically, none of the things that caused my parents to be split up based on what I know
Jen: she's full of surprises.
Will: So what I know there's none of those warnings as a, none of those things that are issues, especially specifically with me as there was with my father, that would cause that, so it's not as big of a deal to me.
Sarah: Yeah, then you can be, , can't live that way either. , you're obviously gonna have some natural thoughts, I think in fears, , you love someone and Jett is awesome.[00:34:00]
Jen: Some of us aren't that successful.
Sarah: I'm
Will: talking to him, men.
Jen: I would just say in in closing is that kids are going to be okay. , you love your kids and that's going to be your focus. And as long as that's your focus and not trying to stick it to the other parent, then the kids are going to be great.
Will and I are mostly saying most days, so yeah. You're going to be high. . Yeah.
Sarah: And then you got some shit.