The Bridge: a Disagreeing Well podcast

In this episode of The Bridge: A Disagreeing Well Podcast, we tackle a question at the heart of the UK's identity as a global education leader. While the debate often focuses on migration statistics, the human element is frequently lost: the fact that international students are a vital part of the UK’s academic and social fabric.  
 
As the UK navigates new immigration frameworks, we ask: how can the country maintain its reputation as a welcoming destination while ensuring growth is sustainable for local communities?  
 
In this discussion from University College London and Students’ Union UCL, host and co-producer Marva Khalid facilitates a nuanced conversation where both guests agree that international students are welcome and bring immense value to the UK. However, they disagree fundamentally on whether a cap is the right tool to manage that value:  
 
  • Jamie Arrowsmith, Director at Universities UK International, argues that caps are "blunt tools" used by governments that lack better ideas. He contends that international recruitment is already naturally falling and that adding a cap would be a "disastrous" signal that harms the UK’s reputation and ignores the existing controls already in place.  
  • Jonathan Thomas, Senior Fellow at the Social Market Foundation, believes that because students are so "welcome and important," we must ensure their arrival serves the interests of local communities and infrastructure. He argues that while a general cap is difficult, specific controls or caps in certain circumstances are necessary to manage "externalities" like housing shortages and public perception.  

Key Takeaways from this Episode: 

  • Don’t Solve "Yesterday’s Problems": Jamie highlights that international student numbers are already in reverse; he argues that imposing a cap now would be a reactive mistake to a trend that has already shifted.  
  • The "Social License" to Practice: The guests explore whether universities have lost public trust by growing too fast. Jonathan suggests that "aggressive" advocacy from the sector has sometimes ignored legitimate local concerns about housing and infrastructure.  
  • Lessons from Abroad: Both guests look at the "unintended consequences" seen in Canada and Australia. While they agree these examples show that caps can be "too effective" at killing recruitment, they disagree on whether the UK can find a more "nuanced" version of these controls.  
  • Identifying Common Solutions: Despite their disagreement on caps, both guests find common ground in the need for a "compact" - a better partnership between universities, government, and local residents to manage growth sustainably.  
  • The Power of Curiosity: The guests reflect on the importance of approaching "hotly debated" topics with a desire to understand the other’s "strategy source" rather than simply needing to "win."  
 
Listen now to hear how we can bridge the divide and ensure the UK remains a top-tier, welcoming home for international students.  
 
This production was led by UCL student presenters, Diego Lacheze-Beer and Marva Khalid, who are participants on Students’ Union UCL’s Impartial Chairs Programme. Find out more about the programme and, if you are a UCL student, how you can apply here.  
 
This is a Research Podcasts production.  
 
Episode Credits 
Presenter: Marva Khalid Students’ Union UCL Impartial Chair 
Guests:  Jamie Arrowsmith and Jonathan Thomas 
Producer and editor: Research Podcasts 
Music: The Investigation by Pixabay  
Artwork: Johnson Banks and Indianna Dimmer 
 
Further reading and resources  
 

Creators and Guests

Host
Dr Melanie Garson
Melanie has been teaching on international conflict resolution and international security at UCL since 2010. She provides practical insights and thought leadership for policymakers across the full spectrum of cyber policy, tech geopolitics, and defence innovation challenges. Melanie is an accredited mediator and regularly provides commentary on geopolitics and tech in podcasts, webinars and at major media outlets including Bloomberg, BBC, Sky, CNBC, CNN, Fox News, France 24, and DeutscheWelle.
Host
Marva Khalid
UCL Student, MSc Burns, Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery
Guest
Jamie Arrowsmitm
Director at Universities UK International, argues that caps are "blunt tools" used by governments that lack better ideas. He contends that international recruitment is already naturally falling and that adding a cap would be a "disastrous" signal that harms the UK’s reputation and ignores the existing controls already in place.  
Guest
Jonathan Thomas
Senior Fellow at the Social Market Foundation, believes that because students are so "welcome and important," we must ensure their arrival serves the interests of local communities and infrastructure. He argues that while a general cap is difficult, specific controls or caps in certain circumstances are necessary to manage "externalities" like housing shortages and public perception.  

What is The Bridge: a Disagreeing Well podcast?

The Bridge: a Disagreeing Well podcast from University College London and Students' Union UCL tackles some of the most hotly debated issues of our time and provides practical techniques to bridge the divide between conflicting views. Each episode, our student hosts Marva Khalid and Diego Lacheze-Beer, along with expert UCL mediator Dr Melanie Garson, dive into a polarising question with informed and passionate guests with contrasting views. Tune in to better understand these critical debates, and equip yourself with the skills to have more meaningful conversations.

Find out more at https://www.ucl.ac.uk/about/the-bridge

Marva Khalid 00:01

Hello and welcome to the second series of The Bridge: A Disagreeing Well Podcast from University College London and Students' Union UCL that tackles hotly debated issues and provides us with tools and techniques to help us disagree about them better. I'm Marva Khalid, a UCL student and co-producer of The Bridge. I believe that conversation is the catalyst for change, which is why I want to figure out how we can have tough debates that build mutual respect, not further division. Our question for today, should the UK cap international student numbers? This conversation often circles the same ground, migration statistics, economic impact and public opinion, but recent policies are reshaping higher education in the UK, from a proposed tax on international student fees to slicing the post study Visa down to 18 months, we're only just beginning to feel the effects. With the current political climate around immigration, international students can often feel unwelcome, that is because the public conversation rarely differentiates between a student on a Visa and anyone else. So is a transparent gap agreed in advance between policymakers and universities, the answer. Joining us to discuss this are Jamie Arrowsmith, Director at Universities UK International:

Jamie Arrowsmith 01:36

I think the cap there has been nothing short of disastrous, the signals it has sent to international students is that you're not welcome here.

Marva Khalid 01:44

And Jonathan Thomas, Senior Fellow at The Social Market Foundation:

Jonathan Thomas 01:48

I'm just talking as somebody who's looking at it from the outside. I'm thinking they are the most aggressive of any sector.

Marva Khalid 01:59

We're also joined by our resident UCL Mediator, Dr Melanie Garson. Melanie, what are you expecting from our conversation today?

Marva Khalid 02:07

Well, Hi Marva. Today is a super interesting conversation, this particular topic crosses over some of the topics even that we've discussed in this podcast, and what I'll be looking for today is actually can we keep the conversation focused on what we're discussing. One of the things we often find where disagreements arise is people start talking about one thing and they end up talking about another, which is where we get even further disagreement. So that's what I'll be looking for today. What about yourself? What are you looking for in today's conversation?

Marva Khalid 02:38

That's a great perspective Melanie, because I do think by staying on the topic, we can reach solutions. I'm really interested in finding out what is the future of international students going to look like in the UK. So, let's get into the discussion. Jamie, we're asking, should the UK cap international student numbers. Can you briefly outline your position on that?

Jamie Arrowsmith 03:04

Thank you, Marva. I don't think caps on international students make for good policy. It's not because I think recruitment should be an unregulated free for all. I think growth needs to be sort of well managed and properly resourced. But I don't think that caps are the answer. I think they're blunt tools, fundamentally, I think they're what governments do when they lack ideas and legitimacy, and they have major intended consequences. But more importantly, caps are actually unnecessary, universities can't just go out and recruit as many students as they want. There's a process they already have to follow, and if you look at the current data on international recruitment numbers have already fallen quite significantly. So, in that context, it's unclear to me what caps would seek to achieve.

Marva Khalid 03:45

That's very helpful context Jamie, thank you very much. And Jonathan, can I ask you to do the same?

Jonathan Thomas 03:51

Thank you very much. Yeah, so I do agree, but a general fixed cap on international students would be fraught with difficulties and likely unintended consequences. I feel that consideration of a cap in certain circumstances could be a useful element of both controls, and we want to think about this not because international students are unwelcome, but because they're welcome and important. And we want them to continue to be welcome and welcomed in a way that serves their interests and interests of the institutions that are teaching them, but also takes into account the interests of local students and communities. International students are big business, they're big business for the country, sure, Jamie is very tied in with the international education strategy. You know, £40 billion aims for education experts, they're big business for institutions. For some of them, they're a welcome boost, for others, they're a lifeline, frankly. And they're big business for intermediaries and agents. So, there's a lot of people selling international education, and there's a lot of people buying it, people who want to come here for the education, a lot of people who want to come here because they want to come to this country, and then let's see where that takes them. So, when we're talking about controls and caps, we might be disagreeing, but we're both probably already agreed we don't want a completely free market. The question is, what kind of controls do we want on the market? But the reason we do need controls is because there are risks and externalities for international students themselves, for institutions, for domestic students, and for local communities and broader society.

Marva Khalid 05:19

Brilliant. Thank you both for laying that out. International students do bring value to the UK, but unmanaged growth isn't sustainable. The divided line is about risk. So, let's start the conversation, Melanie over to you to lead us through the discussion.

Marva Khalid 05:37

Thank you very much for that Marva. And thank you Jamie and thank you Jonathan for sharing your viewpoints. Now, Marva took an attempt there of summarising what your positions are. I'd like to rewind that a little bit, and I'd like to ask you, Jamie, just to take a second and say, can you summarise Jonathan's position for us today?

Jamie Arrowsmith 06:00

I think what Jonathan is saying that actually not that he's proposing that you need to have a hard overall cap, but there needs to be caps into, probably something a little bit more nuanced and actually there needs to be better ways of managing growth in international students. So that was what I was taking from his position. And actually, I think there's an awful lot within that that I think we could definitely sort of find some sort of common ground, and I have to sort of touch on some of that later if helpful.

Marva Khalid 06:25

Well, we will put a pin in that and get to that. Jonathan, would you say that's an accurate representation of what you said in your opinion?

Jonathan Thomas 06:34

Yeah, I think that's reasonable. And we've only got a short time to discuss today, and we could get into it in lots more detail, and there's lots more nuances, but I think that's fair enough yeah

Marva Khalid 06:42

So can you do the same about Jamie's opinion?

Jonathan Thomas 06:45

Yes. I mean, I think Jamie's opinion is pretty clear and not surprising. I think what is interesting about caps are blunt instruments, and also, I think highlighting the fact that there are controls, this is not a free market. One aspect of the debate here is really like, how meaningful are those controls? And they might look quite different, I think, from inside the higher education perspective, my background is in immigration, what might look like quite strict controls. From an education perspective, might look less strict if you're comparing them with other parts of the immigration system. And one element of this, actually, is that international students are in a very strange spot in the policy sort of framework as being a kind of triangulation between higher education, trade and immigration. So lots of arguments that work for other parts, probably of higher education or probably of immigration, don't really work for them, because they're strange confluence of different, I suppose, opportunities, but also challenges.

Marva Khalid 07:44

Perfect. Thank you for that. Jamie, is that a fair assessment from your view of how Jonathan framed what your position is?

Jamie Arrowsmith 07:51

I think it is, I think just sort of pick up one of the things that Jonathan touched on. I do think there are controls that are already within the system. However, I would argue that I don't think those controls have always been employed in the way that they could have been. For example, the university can't just recruit as many international students it wants. It has to go through a process. I think it's a legitimate question there about whether the existing policy frameworks have been used as effectively as they should have been, and that's through UK visas, in immigration and some of the evidencing that universities have to put forward. But what I would say is that I think to then jump to, well, they haven't worked or haven't been used properly, we should jump to another blunt policy intervention, I think that's where I would disagree. I would say we need to actually look at the existing tools that we have and try to properly use them. I think to actually jump to new policy interventions when you haven't actually tried using the ones that exist, I think that makes a bad policy.

Marva Khalid 08:42

Okay, so you've jumped ahead a little of thinking about, sort of really sharpening those divided lines, but I'd like to just rewind for one second, because you both alluded to elements of agreements. This is a complicated issue, and you sort of both touched on it. Can we see how you see it, Jamie can you give me three things that you think you have in common from your position?

Jamie Arrowsmith 09:04

So I think first of all that we recognise that there is huge value in international students and the contribution they make, both to universities and society. I think the fact that there is a responsibility on universities as recruiters towards international students, I think that definitely came through in what Jonathan was saying. And actually, one of the reasons I think he's advocating for stronger controls is to emphasise that value and importance of international students, not to limit the option. And also, thirdly, recognising that there are already controls within the system as well. So I do think there are kind of areas where we do have sort of overlap.

Marva Khalid 09:40

Perfect, thank you for that. Jonathan, if you were to give three things, would those be your three things, or are there anything else you'd like to add to that?

Jonathan Thomas 09:48

Yeah, they would. I suppose I'd like to add two things. One is even the people who put caps forward would not disagree that they are blunt instruments. And one thing that I would like to express agreement with specifically actually is around this argument that there are controls that have maybe not been implemented effectively, particularly that rings very true to me as somebody who's been sort of immersed in immigration debates for a long time. In fact, when Jamie was saying that I was remembering one of the post Brexit committees was taking evidence from Europeans who said, well, you never really implemented the checks you could have done on free movement. And if you had done maybe we wouldn't all, be in this committee. So having the ability to actually implement it's one thing, having controls, that's another thing, implementing them. And I think the question here is around, what should the controls be? What are other countries doing? Obviously, there are other I'm sure we'll come on to this, but three main competitors, Jamie, might see it, but there's more and more competitors, but the key competitors are America, Canada and Australia, are all having this same debate.

Marva Khalid 10:57

Perfect, so that's great. So we've got quite a good list here of the space where you've got common ground and common thinking. What do you think is your chief area of disagreement here? Jonathan, I'll come to you first, and then Jamie, I'll come back to you.

Jonathan Thomas 11:13

Probably the chief area of disagreement really is whether caps are ever useful, right? I mean, I have written about international students, and I have not advocated for a blunt, general cap, but I am here today at least trying to explain why you might consider a cap in certain situations. And I do think having looked at what other countries have done, is also a question about, what does a cap mean at what level? So, you could set a cap at a national level and just say, hey, we're not going to let in more than, you know, 200,000 international students next year. Or you could do what Canada did for appearing recently, which is to apply a cap at a provincial level, which sort of makes sense in Canada, because it's a very provincial based place. Or you could do what Australia did and look more at the institutional level. And Jamie might argue, well, there's a quasi-sort of capability there already, and I suppose I would start at the Australia end before moving the other way. But I suppose really, it's a question of, what does a cap mean and how should it be implemented? But you could have a huge debate and a huge argument between people who are all advocating implementing caps, but just in a different way.

Marva Khalid 12:21

Thank you for that. Jamie does that resonate and do you see any additional points of difference between the two of you?

Jamie Arrowsmith 12:28

It does resonate and just to start with Jonathan's last point, I do think there are mechanisms in there to control growth at the institutional level. I think there's potential opportunities to actually use those mechanisms strategically. And I think that's my problem with the idea of having caps, either at a local, regional or national level, that they always become fairly blunt tools. And if we're already working within a system where we don't think government or the regulator or universities are implementing the fairly nuanced tools that they have at their disposal, but having a kind of cap approach is going to help address any of those sorts of wider questions that might be being raised in any more effective manner than the tools that already are not being used. I think just looking at one of the examples that Jonathan highlighted, Canada, I think that is really instructive actually. I think the cap there has been nothing short of disastrous, the unintended consequences of the caps have been hugely significant in the signals they have sent to the market. They've been successful if your only purpose is to lower net migration, they've actually been pretty disastrous in terms of international recruitment for Canadian universities. They've actually been far too effective, Canada can't now even recruit to its caps, the signals it has sent to international students is that you're not welcome here. And actually, there's now a real crisis in the Canadian higher education sector, and so that's what I mean about there is a complexity to implementing caps, and even though they were a kind of provincial level, the implications of that across the whole of the higher education system have been really, really significant. I think we have to be very aware of those kinds of unintended consequences. Even if you're trying to take a nuanced approach, they tend to be quite blunt instruments of quite significant implications.

Marva Khalid 14:14

Thank you for that. You've highlighted where you've got the differences, sometimes a policy tool can be blunt and flat and not useful when it's applied in that context. Can you tell you a little bit of why you think differently? I know that, Jonathan, you've alluded to that your background is very much informed by immigration policy, but Jamie, can you just dig into a little bit of explaining why you think differently about this? What is the lens that you are looking at this through?

Jamie Arrowsmith 14:43

It's really important to recognise the position I am coming from. My role is as the university representative body, really that is the lens through which we are approaching this, and through which I approach this through my work. However, I would say that having sort of worked in the kind of international space for seven years, and in my current role for kind of three or four years now, I absolutely see the challenges that exponential growth in international students have created in terms of the politics in the UK and in terms of some local issues as well, so over the past kind of two to three years. And that's why I actually started this by saying, you know, I'm not here to say we should have completely unregulated or managed growth, because I've actually kind of seen the implications of that, both in the UK and overseas. So, it is sort of grounded in my position as an advocate for kind of universities, but also very much in the data and the political landscape that I have been an active participant in in recent years. And there is sort of one other thing as well that I and this might be something for us to sort of pick up in the discussion. I do worry that sometimes we try to solve yesterday's problem. International student numbers are actually going in the reverse direction at the moment, so again, my position is really driven by what's happening today, and actually, what do we think is happening tomorrow and what's happening tomorrow, and looking forward to kind of September 2026, as an international student, numbers are really falling very substantially, so in that context, I don't really know what role a cap would be trying to sort of fill. So that's my position, it's based in both my role as an advocate, but also looking at the data and the implications right now.

Marva Khalid 16:19

Thank you for that. Jonathan, I want to give you some time to respond to that bit. First of all, I'd like to tell us a little bit more about the lens that you come through this from, and then see how that informed your response to Jamie.

Jonathan Thomas 16:33

I think we can sort of kill two birds with one stone. I mean, if i'd been answering that question before Jamie, first, I would have said he's employed by University of the UK to advocate for UK universities. That's literally, I thought I better look up on Wikipedia just to check what Universities UK do, because that's what I think they do, and that's how it phrases it, so that's what he's doing. And I would say that Universities UK is a phenomenally, I'm going to say aggressive and successful advocate. And Jamie might think, wow, it's been, you know, a bit of a clamp down on international student migration, but nothing compared with every other type of migration, in fact, international students are the one that's been generally left alone. And I suppose part of the reason for me focusing on this area is actually just reading stuff where people, for the first time, are saying, hey, maybe this isn't such a good thing for everybody, starting with international students, you're seeing, you know stories in The Guardian about people saying, hey, the brutal reality of life as a foreign student, I'm trying to get here then make enough money so I can pay off all the debts that I've incurred to get here. Or you're seeing the stories of Nigerian students who can't keep up the fees at Teesside. You're seeing a rise in students trying to stay on by claiming asylum, or students suddenly appearing at food banks, or, you know, people who have been students appearing at food banks in London. You know things are changing, and you also have seen, over the past few years, far more stories about domestic students saying, hey, I can't get into Uni anymore, how come there's so many international students? Or I've got into Uni, but I can't find anywhere to live, so I'm needing to live at home. Or I did get into Uni, but there's so many people on my course and such a mix of people, I'm not really getting the experience that I hoped I could get. You can go on local news and see a load of people in Bristol live complaining that the whole of Bristol has been turned into a university campus. So, none of those things, you know, outweigh everything else, but I think they are things that I would factor into the mix in a way that Jamie doesn't. Now Jamie has to be aware of those, because, as he says, you know, universities need to be popular, otherwise the politicians and public are not going to keep up with reasonable policies, like Jamie wants to see. But the last point I would make as well is that numbers do change quite quickly, and particularly with international students, in a sense, because you have this battle between the main centres. However, centres react, as Jamie said, if students aren't going to Canada, then maybe they go to the UK. Maybe international students are dropping off anyway, because certain types of costs. And there's a kind of dynamic interplay between these markets, in a way that there isn't for any other type of immigration, by the way. Which means that, yeah, you have to make policy you think is the best policy. I agree, not just what's happening tomorrow, but just because numbers are falling, you know, they will absolutely rise again. The UK has got some of the best universities, and despite what we tell ourselves, it's still one of the best countries to live in.

Marva Khalid 19:11

Thank you for that. I'm sort of aware that we're going to have to soon begin to bring this conversation to an end, even though we could take it to all sorts of places. I'm very struck Jamie, by your point about not thinking about yesterday's problems and thinking about tomorrow's problems and thinking about what can be done next. So you've alluded to some commonalities, you've alluded to some differences. Where would you see Jonathan's place in future discussions on this topic. And I'm going to ask you the same question, Jonathan, as you're going forward, that you're both advocating policies, but I'll put you on the spot first, Jamie.

Jamie Arrowsmith 19:50

I think it's really important in any kind of policy debate you have a kind of plurality of views. One area I would take issue slightly with what Jonathan has said is that actually we do very much have to consider, even though we represent universities, the kind of social license and the political license to practice. Without that, we will never get the kind of policy wins that we want as a kind of an organisation. And actually, so one of the things that we have advocated for is something we actually set out in 2024. It was actually what we call a compact, compact between universities, governments and local communities around international student recruitment, which wasn't a cap, but it did, sort of made very clear that if you're going to grow, then that has to be kind of sensitive to sort of local capacity, housing and the infrastructure that the university has as well. And actually, I think a lot of those kind of ideas have come from the kind of work that Jonathan and others have led at those kind of organisations. So, I think it isn't just about us having a blunt position saying we don't want any restrictions on what we do. It really is about kind of recognising that there have been political and social concerns that have been raised about international students and growth. We can't ignore the political context in which universities exist and operate, and so we have to ensure that if we want to advocate in favour of universities being able to recruit international students, we also have a very kind of sensible and evidence informed position about what that looks like, and that includes maintaining that kind of social license to practice, and means drawing in ideas from the likes of Jonathan and others. So that's where I think there's kind of a need for kind of all different sort of actors in this kind of space.

Marva Khalid 21:29

Thank you for that Jamie. And Jonathan to you, where would you see incorporating Jamie's argument into part of the solution space that you're operating in?

Jonathan Thomas 21:39

Yeah. I mean, it's been gratifying to hear Jamie's approach. I'm from the outside looking in, really on higher education, and this would be true for other sectors, but probably most so for higher education, frankly, that there is a sort of monolithic headline quote that doesn't seem particularly open, and maybe I've just missed it. Maybe I've missed all the nice, you know, fluffy stuff, but I suppose one of my critiques of higher education strategy is they literally seem to fight everything as though it's the end of a world. You know, restrictions on the dependence, that's the end of a world. Even looking at the graduate visa is part of that, but it clearly needed looking at both the Migration Advisory Committee thought it did both ONS said, look, hey, there seems to be more students staying on after their studies, maybe we need to look at it. The approach of a sector, particularly after the decision to review cause toxic uncertainty. I thought was like, really unfortunate. I think you should always be reviewing stuff, certainly stuff as important as that, and it's really gratifying. I think obviously there's a place for Universities UK in the debate, they are unbelievably knowledgeable. But one of the things that at least the Canadian debate did is it acknowledged there were potential pressures and trade-offs much more publicly. That was done, obviously by Trudeau, he was seen as a uber liberal. That was when I started looking at international students, was when the head of my Think Tank said, look what Canada has just done is the most liberal state. You know, this was not a populist making these changes. And I think this is a really interesting point on debates, how do you take an advocacy organisation like Universities UK and tease out some of that nuance, when that there is a pressure behind the advocacy to just say, look we're not going to give on any point. And obviously that's all-secret strategy source for Universities UK. I'm just talking as somebody who's looking at it from the outside, I'm thinking they are the most aggressive of any sector and have been the most successful, so maybe that's the best way to go.

Marva Khalid 23:36

Thank you for that. I've got two little things I want to nudge you towards before we wrap up this conversation. If you were to give Jamie one piece of advice as to what could Jamie say that would really resonate with your audiences that you're speaking to, what would that be? And Jamie, I'm going to ask you the same thing to Jonathan.

Jonathan Thomas 24:00

yeah. I mean, I think I'm in a minority audience where I am really starting off by thinking, oh, this is interesting. I wonder what the answer is. And Jamie is a very clever guy, and Universities UK are very clever, but they're starting from the answer, which is, the answer is to support UK universities and then they're coming up with lots of justifications. But I do feel that there are certain things, but I would say, for instance, the Migration Advisory Committee take with a pinch of salt from the HE sectors, because they feel it's just overstated. Something that really annoyed me on the debate about the graduate visa was various bits of evidence issue, not by Universities UK, but by other advocates saying, hey, we're going to lose students to people like Canada if we reduce the graduate visa by six months, when Canada has just come out and capped and reduced its international student numbers for 2 years, and they didn't even mention that fact. So, I tend to find that stuff a bit annoying, which isn't a problem, because they can easily annoy me, I'm a nobody, but nobody's listening to me. But I do think it causes some people to view some of their other evidence with scepticism, and those people are important because the Migration Advisory Committee could have gone a lot harder on the graduate visa, and they didn't, for lots of quite technical reasons that Jamie will know, initially in 2018 they came out against the graduate visa at all. So, I do feel that there is ways that a Universities UK could put their still, put a very strong case forward, but could maybe put it across in a way that that doesn't cause as much umbrage to some important decision makers.

Marva Khalid 25:31

Well, thank you for that, Jonathan. I would argue that every voice is important, especially yours here today. Jamie, over to you, what do you think would be the one thing, having heard Jonathan, that the communities that he's representing, the viewpoints he's representing, you would tell him to say that would resonate with your audiences better?

Jamie Arrowsmith 25:53

I actually think there's probably a space for sort of us to engage more bilaterally as well. The kinds of organisation and Think Tank that he works for and are represented by the light Universities UK, because I think there is a lot of common ground. And actually, I would disagree with the proposition that we just start with the answer and work backwards. I think one of the things that I have been quite keen to do is to say that one of the big problems we have is looking at problems in isolation. And this is one of the issues I have with student number caps. It is a simple solution to what is a really complex problem. And actually, the complex problem we have is about the domestic funding of higher education, which successive governments have thought, actually the shortcut here is to ask more of universities not fund them sustainably and actually expect that to be cross subsidised through international recruitment. And then we have the benefit of being able to attack both international students and universities for causing an immigration problem. And I think that if we just focus on one part of that problem, not focus on the totality of it, we potentially risk destroying that kind of thing that Johnathan said at the start, we have a great university system, but also don't really address the big problem that people thought they had. I think it's about trying to look at that in the totality, we absolutely should be having a conversation about what sustainable and well managed growth look like. But that also needs to be absolutely alongside of a strategy for what the government and what society wants from our universities, and how we actually prepare to fund that. And that means some really honest conversations about the trade-offs between those two things, between migration and that kind of wider public policy. The final thing I would say is, I think I was chairing the panel where Alan Manning actually said that about the piece of research that we co-produced with someone, so I'm glad we found a point where we were probably both at the same meeting.

Marva Khalid 27:36

Well, it's always great to hear that final question from each of your perspectives on this critical issue as we talk about it, from a university you talked about looking forward, what do you want to achieve going forward, Jamie?

Jamie Arrowsmith 27:53

Stability and policy, a sustainable approach for students, for universities and for governments. And all of that contributes towards a kind of higher education sector that I think we all agree is an asset to the UK.

Marva Khalid 28:06

And Jonathan?

Jonathan Thomas 28:07

So, I'll go a bit rogue, I'll just say a lot of the UK students already come from India and Nigeria. These are not just any two countries in the world, they're going to create most of the young people on the globe in the next 20 years. So, we need to be prepared, that brings lots of opportunities, but also challenges. So, I agree, we don't want to be looking in the rear-view mirror, but even the future is stretching out before us, and these people are already born. You know, we know that the UK is going to be popular, and we need to be focusing on the amount of people who are going to want to come here.

Melanie Garson 28:40

Well, thank you very much for that. There's so many avenues we could have taken it, but I appreciate your time today., Marva, it's back to you.

Marva Khalid 28:49

Thank you, Melanie. So we just had a very interesting conversation, and by staying on the topic, we were able to dissect and look at different issues that need to be addressed. One important thing that I took away from Jamie was that the numbers are falling already, so do we really need a cap? And from Jonathan, he mentioned Canada, Australia, different policies. So, I think that's a good starting point as well for the discussions that are to come. We don't need to do what Canada exactly did, but we do have different countries to look at and decide what would be the best for UK. Jonathan and Jamie, thank you for bringing such honesty to this. Jamie, a question for you, what will you take away about disagreeing well around this issue?

Jamie Arrowsmith 29:37

That actually there is an awful lot of common ground that we have, even if open starting positions are sort of different, I think it's probably best to sort of focus on what's the outcomes that we want to actually achieve. We might have different ways of getting there, but if we can agree on the kind of the the objectives and the outcomes, then that is a really kind of strong basis for actually having a constructive dialog and conversation.

Marva Khalid 29:57

Jonathan, same question to you.

Jonathan Thomas 29:59

Yes, absolutely I agree with that. And I think on disagreeing well, I do think that it's about understanding and learning, and it's good to hear Jamie talk about the fact that it is important for the universities how the public feels about this, and that we need to engage with that and with local communities more broadly. And I think that it's quite hard, I think, for Jamie to come on here as an advocate, and I can come on here and literally say anything, Jamie can't. We could have this discussion here, we could have it in the pub, and it might be slightly different, but I've been pleasantly surprised how he's said a few things that I thought he might only say down the pub.

Jamie Arrowsmith 30:34

That might mean I've said something that my Chief Executive would happily describe as career limiting.

Marva Khalid 30:40

Thank you very much.

Jonathan Thomas 30:41

Thank you.

Jamie Arrowsmith 30:42

Thank you

Marva Khalid 30:48

So Melanie, we have taken a moment to reflect on the discussion we have just had. How do you feel the disagreeing went and how did your techniques play out?

Melanie Garson 30:58

Well, thank you Marva. It's very rare that either person is 100% wrong, so it gives you that little bit of space to try and think, where is the empathetic understanding? Where is that, these are people that are change makers, so people that want to see productive policy put forward, and they can see the complexity. But it was a very useful conversation to really think about the lines of where that were. Was there real difference? Where was that actually room to work together? And that was why, you know, towards the end, I was asking them, what is the one thing that your constituent or the other's constituency would benefit from hearing from you, and vice versa. To think about how they're framing this, to be able to continue that join together going forward. So that's what I was trying to do. What about you? What did you take away from the conversation today?

Marva Khalid 31:54

Brilliant Melanie, you summed it up very well. I think it was a very interesting conversation, not just the international student’s bit, but also about the techniques that I learned about disagreeing well. I was really focused on when you asked them questions to not just find the common ground, because that was established in the start, but when we tried to find what they disagree about is where we were able to hear new ideas, where I think, the change is going to come from.

Melanie Garson 32:22

And you're also an international student, and so this is a question really close to your heart. How did you feel, you know, hearing them talk about international students, how did you feel it affected you and the questions that you had about this topic?

Marva Khalid 32:39

Both of them agreeing that international students do bring value to the UK. That was a very positive message for me, that we are welcomed here and then talking about, you know, we have these other problems with the system that needs to be changed. And I think that did answer a lot of questions that I had today.

Melanie Garson 32:59

It's not the students, but the systems.

Marva Khalid 33:01

Exactly.

Melanie Garson 33:02

That sounds like it was a productive day all around. Thank you for sharing.

Marva Khalid 33:06

Absolutely thank you Melanie. Thank you to our guests, Jamie Arrowsmith and Jonathan Thomas, and to you for listening. We hope you enjoyed the discussion and picked up some tips for disagreeing well. If you have, please let us know how you use them. You can drop us a line at podcast@ucl.ac.uk. You can find out more about UCL's Disagreeing Well campaign on the UCL website, or follow UCL on LinkedIn, Facebook and BlueSky using #UCLDisagreeingWell. Please do subscribe wherever you receive your podcast to access earlier and forthcoming episodes. And a final thanks to Students' Union UCL, and the UCL podcast team, and to Research Podcasts for their production support.