God Speaks

How do we learn to recognize God’s voice? In this episode of the Ordinary Discipleship Podcast, Jacob, Jessie, and Julia explore what it means to listen for God, become attuned to His voice, and discern what we’re hearing through Scripture, our emotions, our identity, and community. They talk about why God’s voice is deeply personal, how intimacy with God helps us recognize His tone, why discernment is something we do together, and the danger of confusing our own agendas or desires with God’s voice. Most importantly, they consider how ordinary discipleship can help people hear God for themselves rather than becoming dependent on someone else to tell them what God is saying.

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Creators and Guests

Host

Jessie Cruickshank

Author of Ordinary Discipleship, Speaker, Neuro-ecclesiologist, belligerently optimistic, recklessly obedient, patiently relentless, catalyzing change

What is Ordinary Discipleship Podcast?

The Ordinary Discipleship podcast with Jesse Cruickshank and the Whoology team is a journey through the fascinating intersection of neuroscience and narrative to ignite the disciplemaker in you.  Delve into the transformative power of storytelling, exploring how our brains are wired for transformation and discover the extraordinary in the ordinary. From understanding the biological roots of storytelling to unlocking the secrets of spiritual maturity, each episode offers insights to empower you to become a more effective disciplemaker and deepen your spiritual growth.

Jacob: Thanks for joining us. We
are here on the Ordinary

Discipleship Podcast. I'm Jacob.
I'm here with Jesse Cruikshank

and Julia Schmaltz, and lately
on the podcast, we've been

diving into topics from their
book, Becoming Good News:

Reimagining Discipleship Through
Identity, Story, and Science.

And as we've been doing that,
ladies, a lot of times we've

stumbled into this encouragement
to people to listen to God or

hear God's voice or allow God to
name them, and for some people,

this idea that God speaks might
be new or fresh or intimidating

or just a little fear-inducing.
So, what do we really mean by

God speaks, and how is God
speaking similar to or different

from me speaking to you right
now? Like, what do we mean by

that?

Julia Schmaltz: One of the
things I love just open up the

first few pages of Scripture or
any almost any page in Scripture

and just underline the Lord said
God said. When you start looking

and really going at it from that
lens, you go. This entire

scripture, all of the Bible, is
just a story of God speaking

creation, literally speaking
things into existence, speaking

life into existence. I love that
story of Abraham, and it said,

"And the Lord said to Abraham,
'Go into this new land. I mean,

and you just, you just go, 'Oh,
God speaks. Like I, I for me, I

have to honestly go. Like, when
when did I ever believe that God

didn't speak? You know,
Scripture says, you know, in

John 10 that the sheep hear my
voice, and so I once Googled

like how do lambs learn to hear
their shepherd's voice? Because

do they just come out and it's
like, oh, it's tuned in, you

know, like dialed in on the
radio, right to the right

shepherd's voice, and so I found
this YouTube video, and it's of

a shepherd, you know, and so
these people line up on the edge

of the fence, and they're, you
know, they're calling out to the

sheep, and they don't listen,
you know, they don't respond,

they don't respond. Like three
people call out to the sheep,

and they don't respond, and then
all of a sudden, the shepherd

lines up, and he calls out to
the sheep, and they all come

running, and they all line up,
and they begin to follow that

shepherd. And so, when what the
little research I did, you know,

because Google is obviously the
authority on everything, it was

how do how do lambs learn to
learn to hear how God's or learn

to hear the shepherd's voice by
being around other sheep who

understand and know that that
shepherd is their voice, and so

they begin responding because
they're around others who begin

responding. That's how we first,
you know. So, does the fact that

God speaks? You have to. I mean,
if you are a follower of of

Jesus, I encourage you to go
into Scripture and just begin

underlining all of those
different passages of about God

speaking. So let's start there,
but let's assume that God speaks

because that's what Jesus says.
He says, "My sheep know my

voice. So how do you begin to
know God's voice? Is you begin

to tune your ear? It's like a
radio station. I love this

parable that the kingdom of God
is like a radio station. You

have to turn yourself the right
channel, so you begin to tune

your ear to understanding God's
voice. And often, and sometimes

in Scripture, God speaks out of
the blue, like at a burning

bush. And it's like you walk up
and you're like, "Whoa, there's

a burning bush! This is like a
defining moment. I need to pay

attention. It's like God
shouting, but the longer, the

more that I've walked with God,
I've realized like God doesn't

always shout like that. It's
much more intuitive. It feels

like something that is a really
great idea. Sometimes it's like,

where did that come from? Oh,
like God, could that be you? I

don't know. Was that me? Was
that you, God? I don't know.

Well, when we learn, when you
learn about brain science, and

you learn about this mutual mind
that this is called attunement.

You know, it's like an inside
joke that you have with your

sibling. You can just look at
each other, or something

happens, and you know what each
other is thinking. The longer

that you you begin to tune your
ear, the longer that you begin

to really even ask God
questions. You know, it says in

Psalm 27 that we're to inquire
in His temple, and there's a

really fun book called "Jesus Is
the Question, and it outlines

all the questions that Jesus was
asked, and he was asked 180

questions, but he asked over 300
questions, and it just it

reminds you that God is that God
is inviting us to ask questions.

As I just think about little my
little kids, you know, if you've

got a little toddler running
around, what do they do? They

just ask questions all the time.
Why? What about this? What about

that?

You're just they never stop
asking questions, and I I

believe that that's the way
we're supposed to learn to hear

God's voice. We're supposed to
ask Him a lot of questions, and

as we do that, and God responds,
if we don't feel like we have

all the answers, that we can
just go to him like little

children and ask questions, he
begins to respond, and then we

begin to notice how he speaks,
and that it's always

encouraging, it's always loving.
Now, does that mean you know? I

was saying that to someone
recently. They're like, "Well,

when God speaks to me, it's a
little bit like you know, it's."

Feels like a little bit of
chastisement, and I go. But is

it for your benefit? Is it
because he's you know? And

there's no condemnation for
those who are in Christ Jesus.

And so God's voice, even if it
it feels like even a

chastisement, is not punitive.
It is for our benefit and for us

to be able to. And the more than
that we hear God's voice, the

more we just attune ourselves to
His ear and tune ourselves in.

We just go, okay, that's how God
speaks to me, and the way He

speaks to me is going to be
different than the way that He

speaks to you because He knows
what I need to hear. God speaks

to me often. I'll tell you when
I'm in a quiet car because

there's a lot of noise in my
life, and so when I God speaks

to me when I clean the garage a
lot because, again, my brain's

in a different headspace. And
God speaks to me early in the

morning. A lot of times, I'll
wake up and I'll just have this

like, it's like it's almost
like, "Hey, Julia, good morning.

Let's talk about this. And I'm
like, "Oh, what a great idea! I

never would have had that. And
this conversation starts, but

that's taken me years to
cultivate with the Lord.

Jacob: Yeah, I like that idea of
asking questions and then seeing

what God says. I was leading a
stewardship class at our church

recently. I pastor a church, and
this woman, like surprise,

surprise, we were doing the
stewardship class around the

time we were doing our annual
pledging process. And I'm one of

two pastors, and this woman said
to me, "She's like, well, you

know, I've been feeling like my
family needs to give more money

to the church, but when I asked
the other pastor, she said I was

giving enough. So that's just
what I have decided, and I said,

'Yeah, we're always going to
tell you that whatever you

discern to give is enough. I was
like, 'So then you have to ask

the question: if we keep telling
you that you're giving enough,

but you keep feeling like you're
not. Who's telling you you're

not? And I was like, it could be
God. It might be something else

in your life, but you should
probably discern that out for

yourself. And I think that's the
kind of thing it's like, and

that connects with a couple of
the conversations we've had

around like the validity of
emotions and and looking for a

witness and discerning in
community and that really is

like all of these things come
together when we start talking

about how God speaks and that's
why it's so difficult to define

how God speaks because it is so
multifaceted. Jesse, what are

you thinking?

Jessie Cruickshank: Well, it's
also super personal, right? You

know, so I think about like the
way that God speaks to me versus

the way He speaks to Julia or my
husband or my brother or you,

and it's slightly different
because my antenna of my

identity is different, and and
God is when God speaks to you,

He is speaking to who He created
you to be, and there there is a

tone, there is a frequency,
there there are ways that he

created you to hear him, and so
he speaks to you in the way that

he created you to hear him. So
my brother is very visual. He

has dreams. He has visions. He
has like he's he's not a word

person. He's an image person.
I'm a very word person, and I

took a I took a time where I
wanted to grow the the image

ability for me to receive image,
and it was there's just there

was a lot of mixture in it, and
I just did I did like this whole

like three years of visioning,
where I would pray in tongues

and let and receive from the
Lord and and just write down

whatever I saw, and and so when
I say mixture, what I mean is

that there was some of my soul
and some of the Lord in there,

and anytime God speaks to us,
because He's going through our

humanity, there's mixture. It's
is it 50% pure? Is it 90% pure?

Is it 95% pure? Like like I
don't know, but like it's okay

because God says it's okay. So I
would write down the visioning

stuff, and and I had some
amazing visions that changed my

life. And I had a bunch of stuff
that I'm like, yeah, I don't

know, but it's easier for me to
hear words. Like that's how he

created me to to to hear him
more clearly. So I lean into

that the most. And what I know
is that spending time with God,

I I learn his tone, right? So
just like spending time with my

husband, he could write
something down, and I would read

that and go, "Oh, that sounds
like him, or I could read

something and go, "I think this
might be a scammy email because

this does not sound like him. Is
this ChatGPT? What? Where? Where

is this coming from, right?
Because you have your voice.

Well, God has His voice, and so
as we spend time with him, we

learn to recognize that voice,
which is the tone that that we

can pick up, whether it's
spoken, whether it's written,

you know that kind of thing, and
and it comes out of this

intimacy of knowing. And for me,
as I was learning to hear God's

voice and learning to be more
confident in that, I started

paying attention to like what it
created in me. So, like Julia

said, it's never condemning. And
for me, as an enneagrammate, God

can speak to me very sharply,
but it's always life giving.

There's no condemnation. It
always sets me free. There's

always like an openness on the
other side of that. Now, if a

sharp word comes and it shuts me
down. That's not the Lord,

because the Lord doesn't speak
to things that create fear. The

Lord never speaks in shame,
ever, ever, ever, ever, ever,

ever, and He doesn't. He doesn't
do things to like embarrass me

and squash me. So if it's the
Lord, it brings joy, it brings

freedom, it creates peace.
There's like it opens me up, so

so like I said, part of me
trying to get clarity on am I

listening to the Lord's voice or
something else? And there could

be a lot of something else. It
could be other people. It could

be the enemy. It could be my own
soul. It could be like whatever.

I just pay attention how it
makes me feel on the other side

of that. And God's word always
brings freedom and life and

light and joy and love, so yeah.
So paying attention to that

reaction in my physiology
because I I believe as humans

we're created as a as antennas.
We are a body, soul, and spirit,

mind, will, and emotions. We are
an entity created to be an

antenna to receive the message
that the Lord is speaking to us.

So that those are kind of the
the markers that I have in how I

try to to to get clarity or
discernment. And when I don't

know, I always ask somebody
else. Like you know how you get

clarity of a clear signal of a
radio station is that there are

multiple antennas and receivers
that are bouncing off of each

other, clarifying that signal.
So if I'm not sure, I'm gonna go

share it with you guys, right?
I'm gonna go share it with my

husband. I'm gonna share it with
people in my life, and I'm gonna

like help me, help me know this.
And you guys, we've had these

experiences, right? Where you're
both like, yeah, that's not God.

That's not God speaking to you,
right? You guys have both

corrected me. Yeah, you know, I

Jacob: often will say to people
like God speaks to us

personally. We discern in
community, and I think that's a

good segue to like. So okay,
yeah, God speaks to us. We can

hear God's voice for ourselves.
I think there's a component to

ministry that is helping other
people hear God's voice for

themselves. Earlier in my life,
I worked for a mission sending

organization. We worked with
young adults to take them on a

trip to 11 countries in 11
months, and we would run a

training camp where alumni of
the trip would come back to

volunteer and minister to young
folks who were about to go on

the trip, and so we always had
to give them an orientation to

ministry because these these 22
year olds would come off the

field, and they were so excited
to tell everybody about their

experience. And so, what would
happen sometimes in ministry

environments is they would end
up just telling these other

future participants about what
it was going to be like. And we

had to tell them, "Don't do
that. Your only job in ministry

is not to tell anybody anything,
but to come into agreement with

what God is already saying, and
so if you can tune in and hear,

like listen with that other
person for what God is saying to

them, and then agree with it, so
that you are a witness to what

God is doing in their life. Now
you're empowering them to hear

what God is saying for them, and
I think that's that's sort of

like a corollary to that
discerning in community thing.

It's like so often I think in
ministry we think we have to

come up with the answer, give
the final word or something, but

really, really just point people
back to hearing from God. That

is the is the heart of ministry,
and and that really like

ordinary discipleship, right?
Kind of becoming a guide to

others. How does that play out
for you all when you think about

this narrative discipleship
conversation and and partnering

with others?

Julia Schmaltz: Yeah, you know,
one of the things that I learned

many years ago is James one one.
You know, when I do ask

questions of the Lord, it's you
know it says in James one to

talk to ask for wisdom and when
you do you must believe and not

doubt because if you doubt
you're like a wave of the sea

blown and tossed by the wind and
I just began to say okay Lord

I'm going to ask you questions
and I believe that in your

wisdom you are going to I'm
going to receive the first thing

that I hear from the Lord, and
the second thing I'm just going

to say, okay, and so that's what
then I would come into agreement

with. Didn't always make sense,
but that's what I would begin to

present to other people. And I
think you you bring up a really

incredible point about coming
into agreement with things

because we can tend to,
especially early on in our

discipleship, take these words
and feel like okay, that's

going-that's a word from the
Lord that is going to come to be

and come to pass in the next
year. And sometimes the things

that God that we believe we
hear, which I actually do

believe we're hearing
accurately, we just aren't

hearing it for God's timing. One
of the things that Jesse talks

about is having when we're
speaking to someone that we have

God's eyes, God's ears, God's
heart, and God's timing. And I

remember once I was asking the
Lord about about a decision

about I was literally in two
ministry positions. One was in

my local community. One I was
working remotely. For 1500 miles

away, and I was getting more
fulfillment out of the one that

I was working remotely for
because it was just you know

just the position I had. But I
was in both places, and I was

very pulled between both places.
And I'm so I'm God. Where do you

want me? Where do you want me?
Where I just kept asking God for

months, where do you want me?
And I heard the Lord say, "Shut

up! Stop asking me. It was he
had to speak that clearly

because I just kept asking. He
said shut up. I'm like okay,

God, but it was so life giving.
He said, I shut up. I have you

in both places. Stop asking me.
And I just needed, you know, to

Jesse's point, sometimes you
need that kind of clarity just

to be able to say, okay, God. I
kept asking. God finally spoke

and and spoke to that. But I've
I have found as much as I need

to discern that in community, I
really need people to point me

back to Jesus. That I need them
to tell me what they think,

because not everybody is
inquiring of the same things,

and Jesse and I have talked
about this a lot. But she'll ask

the question, "What have you
been studying in Scripture? What

have you been asking of the
Lord? More so than just what

have you heard spoken that you
need help discerning with? And I

think that's really important.
That when we're coming alongside

other people and in their
discipleship and being guides on

somebody else's journey, that
we're understanding where God

has them in the journey, and
we're understanding what they're

wrestling with more than just

Jessie Cruickshank: with the
question, but really trying to

discern God, what are you doing
in this person's life? Because I

believe you are you care more
about who they are than even

what they do, and so let's come
alongside that, because that's

the heart of God for somebody,
and that's that's in my

experience that's how God
speaks. He's speaking to the

heart of the matter, not not
just what they need to feel or

not, but He's using all of it
for His glory and for their for

their redemption. Joseph, I
could tell just a little bit of

story about where that comes
from experientially, because I

think I think this may connect
some dots for some people. So,

in my 20s, I was at a very
Pentecostal church, and I was

trying to have children. And if
you've ever struggled with

fertility fertility while being
in a Pentecostal church, it well

for me, it was a traumatic
experience because while we were

trying to have kids, and we
spent eight years doing that, we

lost four babies along the way.
I had a lot of good-natured,

kind people who loved me, who
tried to like exert this prowess

of of prophetic ability, and and
the number of times that I was

told that I would be pregnant in
a year was horrifically

traumatizing, and they did it
out of a kindness, but it was

not the word of the Lord to me.
But I thought it was right. So

so they're trying to say
something to comfort or for

their own agenda, and it it made
it worse. It made the

hopelessness worse. It made the
cycle of attempting to have get

pregnant every month for years
worse. And it got to the point

where I was like, God, if you
love your people, you need to

stop their mouth, because the
next person who tells me I'm

going to be pregnant in a year,
I don't care if it's the

sweetest little lady that I
love. The next person who says

that, I'm going to punch in the
face, and I was and I was

serious because at that point I
was done and I was angry and I

was tired of the roller coaster,
and I was tired of people

speaking out of their soul, but
telling me it was God, and so I

had that conversation with God.
Well, the good news is that He

loves His people, and no one has
ever said that to me ever since.

So even if people thought it,
and I could see it on their

face, the Lord stopped their
mouth. So, so God is real. But

it taught me that I cannot help
that discernment of what God is

saying out of my own agenda, and
and I have an opinion. I'm a

person of opinions, like, but I
can't be part of that loop. My

opinion is not part of that
loop. So we point people when

they're trying to discern
whether or not something is from

God. We point them back to what
God is already doing and saying

in their life and through the
Scripture and to them, because

they may be in a different part
of Scripture than I am, learning

a different lesson than I am. My
lesson is not their lesson, and

so I want to point them back to
what God and Holy Spirit is

already doing in their life,
because I believe Holy Spirit is

speaking and showing them and
teaching them. So I gotta remove

myself from the equation, but I
am a witness to, and and can

remind them and help them see
what God is already saying

through the rest of their life.
So, if we're if we're coming

alongside somebody in that
discernment process, like that's

our goal.

Jacob: What do you wish that
people would have said to you in

those moments instead of "You'll
be proud" In a year,

Jessie Cruickshank: um, I'm
praying for you. You know, man,

that that's really painful. Let
let let's pray together,

Jacob: right? And I think that's
like with what we've been saying

here, and kind of what we've
talked about with God working

through emotions in a previous
episode. It's like the reason

someone would say you're going
to be pregnant in a year, and

God said so, is because that's a
that's feels like a better thing

to say than oh you're having a
hard time, and but actually the

second one is we can be more
confident it's true, like and

then the good news of the gospel
for you in the moment is you're

not going through that
experience alone. This person is

with you, versus oh now I'm
ashamed if I don't get pregnant

because I don't want to tell
them they were wrong, right? And

so now it's even more isolating.
It was definitely

Jessie Cruickshank: isolating.

Jacob: Yeah, yeah.

Julia Schmaltz: Can

Jacob: I

Julia Schmaltz: can I just add?
Because I I do I don't want to

go off off the rails here in in
the prophetic, but I do think

it's important to note like
there there are words that we've

all been encouraged with in the
prophetic realm, and then

there's also you know I think
most we've all had experiences

similar to Jesse where there's
things that have been spoken

over us that are beautiful that
we want to hold on to that. Are

make they don't come in the
timing or even in the way that

we expected them to, and so
that's where it is really

important that we're always
discerning what God is doing in,

and that we are not we are not
the voice of God. That we are

when we talk about God speaking.
Really, our role is to to send.

We want people to return to God
as the authority, so that every

word that is spoken, they they
we take back to the heart of God

and say, God, what do you want
me to know? What are you

speaking? I receive this from
this person. It resonates, or it

doesn't resonate, or it hurts
me, God. What do you want me to

know about it, so that His voice
is the one that is the ultimate

authority in our life, and His
He's the one that gets to speak

His truth, so that any word that
we have from anybody becomes,

again, a an opportunity for Him
to to use it for His glory.

Jessie Cruickshank: That's so
good, Jules. Because yeah, the

prophetic is-it's good. It's
amazing. It's changed our lives,

but I think I think we have to
fear the Lord in the middle of

it. So that's so good.

Jacob: Amen. Well, there's a lot
more we could talk about, but we

are we are kind of beyond time.
So hey, as a reminder, listener,

we've been diving into topics
from Jesse and Julia's book

*Becoming Good News: Reimagining
Discipleship Through Identity,

Story, and Science* So, if you
want to go deeper on these

topics, be sure to look out for
that book or continue to join us

on the Ordinary Discipleship
Podcast, where we'll continue to

talk about what it means for God
to form you into your identity

and how identity is the key to
your formation. Thanks for being

with us, and we'll see you next
time.