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The Middle of Culture is what happens when two siblings with too many opinions and not enough chill dive headfirst into movies, music, video games, and whatever else is rotting our brains this week. It’s part pop culture podcast, part sibling rivalry, and fully unfiltered. Expect passionate arguments, niche references, unsolicited rankings, and the occasional moment of unexpected insight. If you’ve ever wanted to eavesdrop on the kind of argument you’d hear at the family dinner table—only with better audio—this is your show.
Eden
00:00
I don't want to hear Did I do that? for a hundred episodes.
Peter
00:15
Welcome back to the middle of culture. I am one of your co-hosts, Peter. And I'm your other host, Eden. Eden, how are you? You were telling me that the weather has been delightful, though not exactly February 15th kind of weather.
Eden
00:30
No, it was 70 degrees yesterday. It was very, very nice. I was out riding my bike in nothing but like a flannel shirt, and it was delightful. However, it is still February. So once the sun went down and I was riding my bike home yesterday, that's when I was like, oh no, mistakes have been made.
Peter
00:53
But it was a little cool for that.
Eden
00:55
It was a a a a tea a teensy bit too cold for me, but that's okay. We sur I survived. How about you? How about you? How you been?
Peter
01:03
Doing all right. You know, we uh had to delay recording a little bit because I had to get over to Boise and uh go over there for a a multi day swim meet, got home last night, uh, and you know, just was very grateful that with that kind of weekend I did not have to come back and immediately get up and go into clinic today. So it was nice that the clinic was closed.
Eden
01:30
I'm sure that's true. Look at you getting This holiday where we celebrate some of the worst people who've ever lived off.
Peter
01:39
You know, kind of feels like not something really worth celebrating, but I'll take the day off and call it good.
Eden
01:45
That's that's the trick. That is always the trick.
Peter
01:48
Well, what have you been checking out lately? Anything interesting to share
Eden
01:52
Yeah, so this is a thing that is a lot of fun that I've been checking out recently. Um it there's a series I re I've read the first four books in the series. I've taken a pause Um, because the first four books are kind of the first arc, the first act of this story. Um and then book five kind of starts act two. Um And there's 10 books out in Japan, but there's only five translated, so that is why I'm kind of taking a break. I want to be able to get through get through more of it at at a time.
Peter
02:24
Okay.
Eden
02:25
It is a s it is a book series with a stupid title, because so many of them have stupid titles called The Otome Heroine's Fight for Survival. The premise the premise of this story is there is this young kid, she's like seven, she her parents are have died, she's in an orphanage, her life sucks. and one day she's out in the town and this woman attacks her out of the blue. It's this person she's never seen before. And she is able to like struggle back and like fight against this woman who's trying to stab her. She gets the knife away and stabs the woman and kills her. Um, and then the woman falls to the ground and there's this like crystal on her, and the the girl Alicia touches it, and in that moment she is filled with a vision of what was happening here And basically what had happened was the the older woman, the woman, was isekai'd into the fantasy world of her favorite Otome video game. as just some random background character, not as anyone who mattered, but she knows who the heroine is. And so she spent her life trying to figure out how could I take over her body, how could I take over her life? I'm preparing for this moment where she could do that. Um And that makes the main character girl so mad when she understands that there is this idea of anotome game and that all of the suffering that she has lived through through this up until this point. has been character building for a video game. And so she goes, Abso fucking lutely not.
Peter
04:05
And so she goes, she again, she's seven years old.
Eden
04:08
She goes back to the uh Orphanage just murders the old lady who runs the orphanage, steals everything that she needs to survive, and just runs away Um and just ki and it decides, well, I'm not gonna do cause again she has the memories like of this other woman about what the what the story of the game is, what happens in the game, like what like she is actually the long-lost, you know, granddaughter of this Duke because her mother ran away from home and was the daughter of this Duke. And so she goes to the You know, Magic Academy and all the men fall in love with her and she eventually becomes the queen of this of this c country. And she's like, absolutely not. I'm not gonna do what this says. So she decides to become an adventurer. And like it is again one of those weird things where there's a level of gamification to this uh magical world that is a little weird, but it is what it is. Um, but she starts, you know, training as an adventurer. She meets these people who start teaching her all these different stuff. But like Because of the experience that she's had, she's just like a weird little sociopath. She's like, what if John Wick was an eight-year-old? And so like legitimately, there's a scene like she she works really hard to get stronger and start training herself and getting skills because she's like, I need to become the strongest adventurer I can. Um, and like I need to rank up at the Adventurers Guild so I can have more freedom to live the life that I want to leave, lead, and not be trapped in these roles that someone has written for me. And so there is this scene near the end, and like eventually she meets the princess uh and is the bodyguard for the princess and saves the princess from like an assassination attempt, all this sort of stuff. And they like become bosom friends even though they know that they'll be separated or whatever. Anyway, that all happens. End of the book though. There is this scene. This is where I was like, okay, no this is doing something interesting. I'm gonna keep reading this series. Um She's walking along, just like along the road or whatever, and these bandits come out to attack her, and she just starts killing them And so one of them runs away, and so she just stalks after it like the fucking monster from it follows, just like slowly following after this guy who's fleeing from her. Sh the guy goes and the most of the bandits are attacking this group of three adventurers who are all like, you know, the second or third fail sons of minor nobles Who know that they're not gonna, you know, you gotta do something.
Peter
06:42
It's this are the clergy.
Eden
06:43
So they go to become adventurers and they're off on their first adventure. They're like 20 or whatever. But they uh and so they're stronger than these like dirt dirt farmer bandits would be, but there's like 15 bandits and three of the noble adventurers. And so they're back against the wall. They're like, we're gonna die here. We don't know like what we're doing. What have we done? And then they just see this guy run up and they're like, there's this girl. She's wild. She just killed a bunch of dudes. And then she just stalks. At this point she's going by Aaliyah because she has to, you know, have an alias. Aaliyah just like stalks out of the woods and just calmly, dispassionately, fucking murders all 15 of these guys. Never even makes, never even makes eye contact with the three adventurer dudes. Just like Kills these guys because they threatened her and then just keeps walking and doesn't even stop. And so all three of the adventure guys are like We're not we're not built for this. We gotta we're out. We're not doing this. And so that is the main character of this series, is this wild little sociopathic girl. Um at this point she's like 11 or 12 by the end of book four. Um in her adventures she has uh found a mentor. The first place she's found that she feels like she could call home is this like demon who is teaching her b sorcery. Uh, she gets blackmailed into joining the Assassin's Guild uh and then decides instead of joining the Assassin's Guild and doing what they say, she says, you threatened my mentor. You are all my ontological enemies. And so by the end of that book, she had killed an entire Assassin's Guild group of 80 people. Okay. She she over the course of like a month makes this plan to be like, here is how I'll kill everyone. I'm gonna kill them all for for threatening my my mentor. And so she has become known as l like she's this weird urban legend known as Lady Cinders, who now the Thieves Guild are trying to attack her because like they were trying to horn in on the Assassin's Guild area, so she killed them too and She's just like this murder hobo going around killing everyone and just being like, sorry. You step to me, you die. And if you are stronger than me, good, because then it will make me stronger. And like constantly looking to fight stronger and stronger enemies. Sure. Uh, it was wildly entertaining so far. But like I say, I I am taking a break after the first four Uh real, real Buckwild though. Real Buckwild series.
Peter
09:24
Okay.
Eden
09:26
And then the only other thing I'll mention, uh I've This is K-pop Demon Hunter's fault. I've really continued my uh trip down a K-pop hole. Oh, I've been. I have been listening to a lot of K-pop lately. Um Uh to such a degree, are you are you familiar with the program SoulSeq, Peter?
Peter
09:43
No.
Eden
09:44
SoulSeq is a file sharing program. Um Not unlike like a torrent type thing, but it's more like a community-based. Like you can basically you designate certain folders on your computer that people can just basically as long as you are open in SoulSync and they're open in SoulSync They can just download stuff straight from you. So it's less uh uh but it's still like anonymized because we all have like handles or whatever. Sure. You know, you're using a VPN or whatever. But anyway, I have become one of the, I think, premier purveyors of K-pop on SoulSeq because every time I open up SoulSeek and I see what are people downloading from my device. It is almost entirely K-pop or Cult of Luna. Those are the big things people seem to be downloading from me on uh SoulSync.
Peter
10:29
There you go.
Eden
10:29
But uh the thing I want to shout out uh because it just came out on Friday. Uh Ji Wu, who is an artist who is part of another group. I cannot think of the group she's in. Uh let me look it up very quickly here. Um she is from a group called Card, K-A-R-D. Um, but she just put out her first solo EP called Exist. Um it starts with a a single called Home Sweet Home, which is a delightful single. It's very, very good. It's got really heavy beats. It's got a really cool melody. And then you pay attention to the words and you're like This is like WAP level of horny. Like truly epic levels of horny and and descriptive in the same way that WAP is, where you're like, oh. We're we're being brutally honest about what bodies do during coitus here. Uh thank you. Thank you for this. Um great it's a it's a great AP EP though. I I have it really been enjoying listening to it. But again, one of those things where you're like I don't know that I would ever be that forthright in my music about my physiological responses to uh sure to to arousal, but You you do you, Gwoo. Anyway, I've been having fun listening to K-pop. Lots of different K-pop groups, Everglow, Dreamcatcher, but Gwoo is the one who deserves the mention today.
Peter
11:54
All right. There you go.
Eden
11:56
What about you? What have you been up to?
Peter
11:58
You know, honestly, not a lot. Uh on the music front, a couple albums that I've been checking out lately. The most recent album. from the British kind of hardcore, post-hardcore, metal core. I don't really know how to describe them, but uh their third LP setting fire to the sky came out a couple weeks ago. uh Troy Sanders sings on one of those tracks. And I think that there's a fairly tight relationship between Mastod Mastodon and Urn. Uh I like it. It's it's a it's a cool album. Don't know if it's my favorite of theirs, but I've been enjoying it. The other one that I've been enjoying is uh the Australian kind of progressive rock sort of uh not really metal band but uh carnival k-a-r-n-i-v o l uh they released Their first album in a long ass time. So their previous album, Asymmetry, came out in 2013. And then Inverses came out a week ago in 2026. So we're talking like tool levels of gap here in there. in their album output.
Eden
13:09
Yeah, it's a pretty big space.
Peter
13:11
Um but it's good. It's you know, again, it's kind of that Uh I yeah, uh yeah, I don't know how else I'd describe them other than kind of a progressive rock uh sort of thing. A little bit more mellow than what I usually listen to, but hey, sometimes that's okay. Sometimes I gotta Sometimes I need something that's not quite so, you know, in my face. But music-wise, that's really about it. Always seems kind of like the beginning of the year starts out a little slow. So this kind of feels like this year has been the same so far.
Eden
13:43
This is interesting. I didn't realize Tool had an album that came out in 2019.
Peter
13:48
Oh, fair enough to them.
Eden
13:50
Yeah, you mentioned, you know, tool having big spaces, and I was like, they they they haven't put an album out since 10,000 days. But apparently they did put out an album 13 years after 10,000 Days. They did. Uh is it any good? I don't know. Here's the thing. Tool peaked with lateralis and uh everything that Maynard James Keenan has done since has been mid at best.
Peter
14:16
Here's what I'll say about Ferinoculum. It's got some filler tracks that just totally waste your time. There's short ones, all of the main tracks. So it's a tool album. Yes, but but All of the main tracks are 10 plus minute long songs that are disappointingly predictable and samey. They all start out, they all start out real kind of mellow, and then things slowly layer in, and then the vocals come in. And then they'll build a little bit and get to kind of a heavier chorus, and then it'll have a lot of wanky noodly, just kind of spacey stuff and I I was supremely disappointed in fear and so they were like, hey, schism did really well.
Eden
14:59
Let's do seven of those.
Peter
15:00
Yes, that is exactly what it is. But longer and more boring Boring. So I would have a very difficult time recommending that you waste any time listening to it. If you listen to one song, I would maybe say listen to Numa. And if you listen to Numa and you go, I really, really like that, then go, hey, there's six other songs that are almost exactly the same. And if you listen to that and go, Yep, that's kind of modern, boring tool, then don't waste your time.
Eden
15:28
Fair.
Peter
15:29
Anyway. The other thing that I will mention is I did uninstall Guardians of the Galaxy because I just kept looking at it in my Steam library and going, I have zero desire to go back in and play this game at this time. So, you know, kind of in the wandering in the the desert right now in terms of what video games I want to play, uh, but that's okay. Uh and then I will mention I am almost done with book two of the three-body problem, the dark forest, and I really think I'm gonna take a break after book two. It is just an oppressively down series. Like like just if if it can happen and it's and and it it's really good at kind of In making the world feel like, oh no, things are gonna turn out okay for humanity, and there is hope. And I'm not I I'm obviously uh I'm a cognizant enough reader that as I'm reading this, I'm like, oh no, when is the rug pull happening? And then another rug pull happens. And it's it's interesting and I'm still enjoying the world, but it is just dour enough after these first two books that I'm like. I think I need a break of something that's just fluffy for a little bit. So I'm gonna finish that and then I think I'm gonna take a little break and then I'll come back to it and uh and and do some more reading again later, Bob. I think that's about it for me.
Eden
16:57
Oh, one thing that I uh that I should mention. Uh I forgot to mention anything about video games. I have not been playing anything of Too much of note, but it is worth mentioning for people who pay attention to gotcha stuff, just to know the new update for Wuthering Waves A is pretty good But B, finally, instead of making the character simp for the main character, for the new character to simp for the main character because they are romantically interested in them, this time, it's your daughter. Oh. Okay. It's goofy. It's goofy. Also, it still does feel it's not your actual actual daughter. It's a girl who you rescued because her parents had died and then You raised her for a little bit and then you went on your adventures and you lost your memory, so you have no memory of her, but she has memory of you. But also it sometimes also has still romantic overtones and you're like. Come on, guys. Come on, guys. I know your character is like a thousands and thousands of years old immortal. We've now come to find out alien being, apparently, from another uh planet, but
Peter
18:03
Okay.
Eden
18:04
This was this was uh you're Ursat's child. Now she's maybe feeling romantic things towards you. And I'm like, I don't know about that. You don't need to do it that way, Woowa. Okay We'll see. The important thing is her gameplay is very good. She turns into a mech. And I do want to I do want them to put out a model kit of that mech because it's a very cool mech design. I'm even out here being like Could I use a Star Lily to try to like kitbash a version of this mech from mechs that I are like mech designs I already know exist? It's a cool design. It's very cool.
Peter
18:41
Okay. Well, at least there's a We'll see.
Eden
18:43
We'll see what happens in three point one. She w sacrificed herself to save you. Uh you know, you can't do that. You're the main character. You gotta go save everyone.
Peter
18:53
It's true. It's true. All right. Well, let's jump to our main topic. Eden doesn't know what we're doing.
Eden
18:59
And so No, I do not.
Peter
19:01
I'm gonna surprise you. I'm gonna share my screen with you, but I'm also gonna say before I share my screen with you, that uh for those who care, if you have strong feelings about what I have done, that's fine. You're welcome to tell me. Uh if you don't like the decisions I made here, that's fine. You're welcome to tell me. But what I'm gonna say is we've done a few tier lists on the middle of culture And every time we do a tier list, I find myself fairly disappointed with the Experience of using the websites to make tier lists. They're junked up with ads. There's all sorts of stuff. And so on a podcast that I listen to, there's a guy who shared a quick tier list website that he made that's very clean and it was very simple and I was like, cool. was kind of looking for an excuse to do a tier list and use that. And then I went to it and there was something that I want to do that you'll soon see what we're gonna do here, uh, that made me go, oh, well this isn't quite working for me. And so what I then did is I took a screenshot of this website and I pasted it in Claude Code. And I said, here's what I want us to code. And I said, we're just going to run it on my computer. So just here's the folder where you can put the files and all this stuff. I said, but let's code a website to do this. And it sat there and it spun for a few minutes, and then it was like, okay, here you go, index. html. So I dragged that into an open Chrome window And there was a tier list website that looked kind of how I wanted it. So I played around with it and then I found a couple little things and I went, oh, you know, I don't want it to you you're you're truncating or you're you're taking the image files I'm uploading and you're making them square, maintain the aspect ratio, do a couple other things. And it spun for a few minutes and then it said, Okay, that update's been made. And then I did a few more things until I got it honestly to exactly how I wanted it. And I was like, sweet, this is great. And then I thought to myself, but what if I actually want to put this on the internet? And then it said, well, you could just use GitHub pages and that's free. And I said, let's do that. And then I went through and I did a couple things and I logged into a GitHub account that I created and authorized a few things. And the next thing I know I have online a little tier list website that does everything that I want it to do. So I'm going to share that with you, and then we are going to do An 80s sitcom tier list.
Eden
21:39
But we're gonna do this sitcoms.
Peter
21:40
Okay. 80s sitcoms. We're gonna do this though In terms of not how important were they at the time, and and you'll you'll figure out why we're going to do this the way I'm doing it, because there's one in particular that I would feel uncomfortable talking about it that way. We're gonna look at it as kind of a nostalgia looking back, going back to re-watch.
Eden
22:04
Okay. Well here's the thing. I don't know. I don't know what you've chosen to put on here, what may or may not appear. You can drag Golden Girls to S from the jump.
Peter
22:14
I knew that was gonna be there. Ever made. And so here we are. We are in I've got twenty-one eighties sitcoms. Now not all of them were just in the eighties, but they all started in the eighties and may have run Um before, um maybe some started a little bit before, but they were all they really kind of, I thought, nicely typified what I think of when I think of 80 sitcoms. Now you'll notice That and this is why I started this whole project, you'll see at the bottom of our tier list, and you can see my uh screen now, right? I can. You can see the Hall of Shame And there's one in here that I think we just need to put there right out of the gate. And I'm gonna grab the Cosby show and I'm gonna put it in the Hall of Shame.
Eden
22:58
Because sorry to everyone else who's not Bill Cosby who was on that show.
Peter
23:02
Correct. But that's the problem. And that's why I want to say this is we're looking at this as It's 2026 and we're gonna go back and think about watching one of these shows again. And I just personally couldn't in any good conscience watch the Cosby show, despite the fact that I fully admit, for the eighties it probably was one of the most important sitcoms. But Bill Cosby is a horrible, horrible human being, and unfortunately, has dragged the entire just history of that show, in my opinion, through the mud, do you have any disagreements with my placement just out of the gate of putting that in the hall of shame?
Eden
23:40
Absolutely not. You are a hundred percent correct.
Peter
23:43
Alright.
Eden
23:43
And again, there are certain things where the the uh the outer textual world happenings make it so that you don't want to engage with that text anymore. I get it.
Peter
23:54
Uh-huh. Yep. And I think that that's this one. And but like I say, that was that was what started this whole thing is I wanted to I I felt if we were doing 80 sitcoms, the Cosby show had to be in the conversation because of how big it was a deal at the time. But at the same time I I wanted to put it in something of its own in its own little category, and that was what prompted me making this website. But so now I have this little website that we can use going forward.
Eden
24:22
So that's pretty incredible.
Peter
24:23
You talked about golden girls. Let me find golden girls and you know what? I'm 100% gonna agree with you Golden Girls S tier.
Eden
24:32
I listeners will remember after we started this podcast is when I was listening or watching the Golden Girls, I believe. Uh, it was how I survived early work from home in the days of COVID.
Peter
24:46
Okay.
Eden
24:46
Was watching the Golden Girls on a second screen. while being bored out of my gourd, trapped in my house.
Peter
24:53
Yeah.
Eden
24:54
Golden Girls is is uh and most importantly holds up on a rewatch. Like is one of those ones you can watch in the 2020s and still be entertained by. It doesn't feel like it is too like Sometimes you watch a thing that is dated um and and you feel the weight of time on you, you know? You feel like, wow. This I remember this being funny, but I'm not the jokes are not landing 30 years later. Jokes still land for Golden Girls.
Peter
25:25
Largely.
Eden
25:26
Do I wish they had kept the funny gay uh housekeeper from the pilot? Yes. Would that have made the show way more problematic? Probably, but I still wish he'd been in the show more.
Peter
25:37
So I have not gone back and watched the Golden Girls, however, for reasons I don't fully understand and I've never bothered to look into, it is almost always playing in the waiting room of surgery when I'm going out to talk to patients or their family or something like that.
Eden
25:59
Someone who works at that hospital just has good taste in in roads, that's all.
Peter
26:03
You know, it's just one of those things that I uh I I I see bits and pieces of it frequently from that and I find myself chuckling. So the rest of these I went ahead and I just randomized them. That was one of the things that I wanted is I wanted the ability once you load stuff up there. You can hit shuffle and it'll just shuffle them for you or you can order them alphabetically. So they're gonna start at the front and we're gonna go Roseanne. Where do you think Roseanne fits?
Eden
26:28
The thing about Roseanne is I remember thinking it was interesting because There's not there there's uh I feel like it was more common in the 70s, but it by the 80s I feels shockingly rare to have like a working class protagonist and like family. And so I do have to give R Roseanne props for that. Like being about a working class family Uh, and not being like weirdly rich. Like many of these other families or many of these other things we're gonna get to your like They were weirdly rich, weren't they?
Peter
27:04
Yeah.
Eden
27:05
Uh and so I appreciate that about Roseanne, that it it it felt like it and I feel like by this point Uh every show is about weirdly rich families. Every every single sitcom with uh not every single most sitcoms are i i especially multi-camera like traditional style sitcoms are like astonishingly wealthy, but they don't realize that's the case.
Peter
27:27
You know?
Eden
27:28
Or sometimes they'll they'll be that way and you'll be like, why are you so rich? Why does a judge have a house that nice in Bel Air, California? Mm-hmm. That screams of uh graft to me. How could a judge be so wealthy? Or like, you know, uh all those sorts of things. So I do like that about Roseanne. But also fuck Roseanne Barr. I don't know. What do you think?
Peter
27:50
Yeah, that's the thing.
Eden
27:51
Is it's again, it's a little problematic because John Goodman, one of the greatest dudes of all time, like all-time great actor. Roseanne Barr though.
Peter
28:01
Yeah, the good news is is I don't think Roseanne Barr's uh descent
Eden
28:12
I don't think she needs to be it doesn't need to be in the hall of shame.
Peter
28:15
I think it's kind of a middle-of-the-road one in terms of the ability to go back and watch. So I'm thinking B versus C, uh, you know, somewhere in there.
Eden
28:26
I am inclined to agree with you. So let's do C just because Roseanne kind of sucks. When you have to get kicked off your own revival show, but they keep the show going without you because you become such a psycho. You get a C.
Peter
28:40
Yep. All right. Designing women. Do you remember this one at all? Heck yeah.
Eden
28:46
Working. This is the thing I'd love to go back and revisit. Working gals working hard in the 80s? That's so my jam, bro.
Peter
28:53
Yeah.
Eden
28:54
This is this is the stuff this is the stuff dreams are made of. If I watched TV, this would be in the rotation. I just don't watch TV. Uh I don't remember the experience of watching it, but I think about designing Rib Women on the Reg.
Peter
29:08
Okay. Okay. I remember again, and this is one of the things that it's interesting to go back and and look at what made something stand out because this show at the time really stood out because hey guess what the main characters not a dude. And in fact, the main characters aren't dudes. And it's kind of nice that that doesn't seem so again, it was the same thing with Golden Girls, as we'd had you know, we had main characters who were women and And didn't rely on everything didn't rely on the men in their lives to make the shows interesting. So for that, I think designing women actually gets a fairly high rank. I mean, I'd be inclined to actually put it in an A.
Eden
29:51
Okay. Let's do it. Maybe I should again I I say I should watch that show. What will happen is I will get it, I will put it on a Plex server, and then I will not watch it. Yeah. But I'm gonna do it. I'll download it.
Peter
30:06
There you go. All right, what about facts of the facts of life?
Eden
30:10
It's the facts of life. Not a very good show.
Peter
30:14
It's true. Not a very good show.
Eden
30:16
I don't know. I d uh it's got a catchy title. You take the good, you take the bad. Um, but I don't remember liking it. I don't think it's very good.
Peter
30:25
And it's definitely not one that I have any desire to go back and watch. I'm inclined to kind of put it in the C range. It's not terrible, but it's kind of uh eh, it's there.
Eden
30:33
That sounds that sounds correct.
Peter
30:35
Okay. I had to put this one in here just because this was such a weird show, really, and that is Small Wonder.
Eden
30:43
Small Wonder was cool. I wanted to be a robot girl when I was a kid. I wanted you to be able to open my back and screw with the wires in my back.
Peter
30:52
Yeah. And and see, I I think I was always like, boy, that'd be cool to have a little adopted sister who can like pick people up and like throw them around and threaten them if they need to be threatened.
Eden
31:01
So I'm saying. I'm saying
Peter
31:04
So this is one of those where it's just weird enough that I'm kind of like, I think it would be a lot of fun to go back and watch it as well.
Eden
31:10
I think you gotta put it at at least a B.
Peter
31:13
Okay. I think let's let's put it there. I think that's a good place for it. All right, different strokes.
Eden
31:19
Poor Gary Coleman.
Peter
31:21
Yep.
Eden
31:22
R. I. P.
Peter
31:24
Yep.
Eden
31:24
Remember remember how he moved to Utah and then was suddenly in all of the like Weird Mormon subculture movies as like a cameo?
Peter
31:33
Yes, I had forgotten about that, but yes, now I remember
Eden
31:36
I don't know how you end up in Salt Lake uh as like a diminutive uh elf of a black guy, but and who's not who's not Mormon, most importantly, who did not like join the church. Why did you move to Salt Lake?
Peter
31:50
It's whatever. I mean yeah, if he'd if he'd have gotten uh if he'd have joined the church, then he could have been like uh what was it, Gladys Knight or who Gladys Knight, yeah. He's now just getting, you know, put in everything because it's like uh we gotta show. We gotta be like, oh look, look who this is.
Eden
32:03
So gotta do our we gotta do some black representation.
Peter
32:07
So here's my thing with different strokes is my and again, have not gone back and watched it. But in thinking back to that show, it kind of really does have that sort of white savior feel to it, which I really kind of you know, it's like we've got these two black brothers, but oh they're taken in by the rich white dude, so they're Yeah. Given, you know, a chance at at a better life. And I don't know. It just th that aspect of it kind of makes me go, uh I don't know. I don't know.
Eden
32:34
And I remember it being like You know, thinking about 80s sitcoms, you think about the concept of the very special episode, you know, where they're like, we're tackling big issues in this one. We're gonna we're gonna tackle a season. Yeah, you do a couple of those a season. Uh but mostly it's just jokes and japes. I felt like Different Strokes was constantly trying to do the very special episode Because of the weird racial dynamics of the cast. And I feel like that probably makes it feel treatly. I bet if you went back to it today, you would be like Oh, this is over rotten treacly.
Peter
33:11
I agree. Where do we think it goes?
Eden
33:14
Uh probably C also.
Peter
33:15
It's kind of what I'm thinking as well. That's what I'm thinking. All right, next up we've got Who's the Boss? And and I'm gonna just get this right out there in front and say as a young man at the time, uh just man, Alyssa Milano growing up with Alyssa Milano kind of made you want to go. I like that show a lot.
Eden
33:33
See, I was gonna jokingly say uh the mom, but I couldn't think of her name off the top of my head.
Peter
33:39
Yeah, I can't remember that either, but uh Anyway, I don't uh I have very fond memories of who's the boss. I I do too.
Eden
33:48
Here's the thing. Uh Tony Danza, smoke show. Super talented, hot as hell. Um, just did the thing, would like sing and dance. Judith Like, that's the name of the mom.
Peter
34:01
Yes.
Eden
34:02
So like Your co-leads are Tony Danza and Judith Light. Two of the two of the greats of the 80s. I'm inclined to give this show an A. Just by strength of their performances alone. Does it help that yes, as a kid, I also had the hots for Melissa Milano? Yeah. But I'll tell you what, I had a crush on Tony Dance and Judith White too. I was like These old these adults are pretty hot too.
Peter
34:24
Yep. Nope. I agree. I think A's a good place for it.
Eden
34:28
Tony Danzel would dance when he'd tap dance. You'd be like, holy cow. Woo! Smoke show
Peter
34:34
Absolutely. Alright, Elf. What about Alf?
Eden
34:39
Every time I think about Alf, I think about the fact that they made an Alf. comic. And every time I think about the Alf comic, I think about a very famous comic cover from ALF. I wanna say it's issue eighteen. Don't fact check me on that. I might be wrong. Where he is holding on to a a seal.
Peter
34:56
Like the animal, the seal.
Eden
34:59
And it's it's supp he's making a joke about it being like his like l like protection device or life support or something. But it does look as though he is having relations with that seal and that the seal is not loving it. And that is the only issue of Alf that is worth money, and it is because people think that the cover is so terrible.
Peter
35:22
Okay.
Eden
35:23
All right. Sorts of things you find out at a comic shop.
Peter
35:26
See, and I don't have that touch point, but I think Alf is one of those where I just kind of feel like It was just kind of weird for the time. And the and and it was weird in that it was it was this weird idea. You've got this fuzzy Muppet alien who just like wants to eat the family's cat. and is here from the planet Melmac and is trying to get home and is just like just crashing with this suburban family. Uh-huh. And and I think.
Eden
35:58
And I feel like. It's what if Harry and the Hendersons was trying to be goofier and less heartfelt? And I think it's to its detriment. I don't think I w if you put the two in front of me, would you rather watch Alf or Harry and the Hendersons? I'd say gimme Harry and the Hendersons.
Peter
36:13
Oh, yeah, 100%. But I I don't I kind of think Alpha is just a hilarious concept that that makes me want to put it kind of up there with small wonder because again, we've got kind of the wacky concept of of you know somebody A regular old family coping with somebody in the in the family who just just doesn't really get it. Um so we'll put that in the B. Alright, family ties. What do you think about family ties?
Eden
36:42
I remember literally nothing about family ties, so I am no help here.
Peter
36:46
Okay. I'm gonna make a case that family ties needs to at least be in the A. I mean it was it it was it was funny. It was Michael J. Fox's breakout performance where all of a sudden everyone's we're family giant Yeah, okay, now I remember. Everybody now learned who Michael J. Fox was, and I just think he's I don't know. I still have really fun memories of Michael J. Fox and and a ton of respect for the guy. And and and it was this w now this was very much one of those where kind of like different strokes, there were a lot of topical things that they were dealing with. and they had a lot of episodes that addressed that. But I felt like it did it far less trickly than different strokes. I think it really was like there was something about it that just made a kind of Kind of hit. So I I think family ties for me is an A.
Eden
37:40
Uh you know, I think that's fair.
Peter
37:43
All right. Now what about Nightcourt?
Eden
37:46
Can I say something here?
Peter
37:48
Please.
Eden
37:49
I love Nightcourt.
Peter
37:50
So do I.
Eden
37:51
I have such fond memories of Nightcourt. What a again, high concept. What if this is the overnight shift at a criminal court with Harry Stone? Harry Anderson is there playing Harold T. Stone. And I love that show. I think that John Larriquette was a delight. I think that the cast is all really, really good. I want to honestly put it in the S's. I think Nightcourt is a killer.
Peter
38:19
You know what? I was hoping that you weren't gonna argue with me wanting to put it in the S tier because I agree. I think it's an excellent show. And and I've seen, you know, I haven't gone back and watched episodes, but anytime I'll see a clip from Night Court On social media or whatever, I'm watching it and then I'm letting it replay at least once or twice because it just It holds up. It is funny. And like you said, the it is a good high concept that they nail. They really, really pull it off.
Eden
38:51
Oh yeah. No, I think it's very, very funny. Uh Harry Anderson was such a good lead for that show.
Peter
38:57
Yeah, he really was. So Okay, what about Full House?
Eden
39:02
See, and here's, you know, a one that I know has maintained its popularity, got a revival. I never cared for it. I don't think it's that great either. I don't think it's good So, you know, I what uh what is there to say? Dave Coulier is there. Um, and the thing that's important about Dave Coulier is he cheated on Alanis Morissette. And that's why we got Jagged Little Pill, which is one of the great albums of the nineties. You ought to know is about Dave Coulier. And that's Atlantis' best song. So Uh can we thank Full House for making washed-up comedian, Canadian comedian Dave Coulier popular enough that then Alanis Morissette would date him so he could cheat on her so we could get one of the great songs of 1995. Sure. Does that mean the show is good? No, it does not.
Peter
39:53
No, no, it does not. Yeah, I don't know. I'm thinking Full House for me is kind of in the sea-ish tier, personally.
Eden
40:00
Yeah. Yeah. Now, if Alanis Morriset's Jackie Little Pill was on this tier list, it would be an S.
Peter
40:06
Oh, okay.
Eden
40:06
The show that precipitated the creation of that album through various and sundry uh happenings. A C.
Peter
40:14
I agree. All right, Taxi. Do you remember anything about Taxi?
Eden
40:18
Have we got our third S-tier show with Taxi? One of the great sitcoms of all time. It is. It really is. Which again I have gone back and watched some taxi as an adult holds up.
Peter
40:31
Yeah.
Eden
40:32
Again, fun working class It feels grimy, it feels gritty, even though it's like largely like in the 80s, it feels 70s in a way that a lot of these don't. And y'all know how I feel about 70s uh cinema and culture and cultural production I like Taxi a lot. I think it's really, really great. Um, so I am inclined to put it at S.
Peter
40:54
I'm not gonna argue with you. I think the again there's just And I think that's what we're seeing here with these S tier ones in particular. There's something about them, whether it was the characters, the writing, but there's They all share some kind of ineffable quality that makes it so you go, yeah, in the 2026 I could go back and watch this. And even in some ways I'd say it still kind of feels relevant.
Eden
41:19
So Yeah Yeah, I mean and Jud Hirsch, uh King, so good in that show.
Peter
41:24
Yeah.
Eden
41:25
Danny DeVito is in that show. Like, it's really, really good.
Peter
41:29
It is. All right. I threw this one in because I thought it was interesting and I think it fits. This is Saved by the Bell. Now it's interesting because rather than being a, you know, evening during the week sitcom. This was like your Saturday morning more for the the Twens sitcom. But it it it held in big enough cultural Kind of place that I felt it it fit on the list. So what do you think about Save by the Bell?
Eden
41:57
You know, uh It's fine. Uh again, I think that many of us all had crushes on numerous and sundry on various and sundry characters who would be. Oh, 100%.
Peter
42:07
Um, you know So can I say that?
Eden
42:11
I guess here's the important no, go ahead.
Peter
42:15
I have fond memories of Save by the Bell because there were a lot of hotties on there. But I'll be honest.
Eden
42:24
As far as the eye could see.
Peter
42:26
I've seen bits and pieces of this, and I think it's actually really bad.
Eden
42:32
I remember it being bad I don't think I don't I never really liked it at the time. I watched it because uh I thought that the characters were hot.
Peter
42:43
I didn't like what they were doing. No So this is one of those where it's like, I uh I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's just because there's a part of my brain that feels like we need something in the D category, but in terms of the quality of the actual show, I don't think it holds up at all.
Eden
43:01
No. Here's the thing. It gave us it gave Elizabeth Berkeley a role Which she then parlayed into being in one of Paul Verhoven's most misunderstood films, Showgirls, which is good as hell. And it shouldn't have won all them Razzies, but people weren't prepared. People didn't understand what Paul was doing. Okay. Showgirls is This is my stance, which I don't think is that I don't think it's that crazy in 2026. Now in nineteen ninety-five, no one is out here saying Showgirls is a good movie, and they were all wrong. In twenty twenty-six I feel like it is a fairly common uh um cultural critique to say showgirls is not the the divot in Verhoeven's uh filmography that some people liked to claim
Peter
43:49
So I I will admit to not having ever seen it, but I have seen enough of the conversation about it that I do get the impression that it was just incredibly like people incredibly misunderstood what Verhoven was going for with this back in at the time.
Eden
44:06
And I mean, is that not the story of Paul Verhoven's uh career?
Peter
44:11
Absolutely. Huge part of it. So I I think, you know, like I say, haven't seen it, but I can totally see where you're coming from. But but save by the bell itself, popular still sticks around, but it's really, really not bad. I mean it's really, really not good. It's really pretty bad.
Eden
44:28
No.
Peter
44:29
Okay. Our next one, Married with Children.
Eden
44:32
I made before we talk about married with children, I made the mistake of pulling up Paul Verhoven's Wikipedia page here, and I'm just like, oh my God. Banger banger banger banger banger 87 Robocop 90 total recall 92 basic instinct 95 showgirls 97 Starship Troopers Damn dog, that is a hell of a run. Ten years, five films, all bangers.
Peter
44:56
It is a real run. So Okay, married with children.
Eden
45:01
Thoughts. Christina Applekate.
Peter
45:05
Uh-huh.
Eden
45:07
K uh, what's her name? Uh the mom.
Peter
45:10
Oh, gull, I just knew it until you asked. Um Katie Sagal.
Eden
45:15
Katie Sagal, aka Leela from uh From Futurama. Uh she's not pretty in that show, but she's pretty in real life. Um but you know, she's Specifically that Married with Children is an interesting one because I feel like it is trying to do some of the stuff we were praising Roseanne for, where it is like showing a more working-class life. but is specifically doing it less for like you know, people live this way and more like Doesn't it suck to be poor? Doesn't it look how stupid Ed Bundy is. He drinks and he puts his hand down his pants and sits on the couch. 'Cause he's just a dumb ass poor guy. And like, I don't love that.
Peter
45:59
Yeah. You know, I I married with children is one of those that felt sort of countercultural at the time because, you know, where we're having all these other polished, like you said, families that are way more rich with no explanation than than they had any right to be. This was on Fox and this was like the this was the This was the one that I wasn't supposed to watch. This is the one that was a lot of people. Correct. And so from that standpoint, I do have kind of fond memories of it, but I don't know that it's great. I mean it's it's not terrible, but I think it's kind of fairly middle of the road because of that You know, it wasn't this is just real life. It's a, oh, let's let's make everything look worse than it is because they're poor. But at the same time, you look at their house and you're like
Eden
46:56
I mean that's d I mean it was it was an eighties poor person, that's the thing.
Peter
47:00
Yes, that's true.
Eden
47:01
It was a different world. Uh Homer Simpson can afford that big house on one person's salary. You can't do that anymore, but you couldn't 1989. The thing that I think is interesting about Married with Children as I'm thinking about it is it just feels like not counter-cultural, but culturally retrograde retrograde. Yeah. Like trying to reinforce things. I am now wondering if Susan Filudi wrote about married with children and backlash. Like, is this a because it seems like a show that is out there to reify the cultural norms that are crashing back on the world in the late 70s and early 80s, which is what Susan Filudi's whole book is about, where it was like, oh Women got a little too uppity and so now the entirety of the cultural apparatus is going to push women back into their shells push them back down, take all of the rights that they have won away from them, take their cultural recognition, their their their wider uh uh, you know uh Uh expansing uh expanding into cult uh popular society. We're gonna shove it all back down. This is not the era of Mary Tyler Moore. This is the era of married with children. And so I wonder if Susan Filudi talks about this book at all or in this in her book at all, or if it's after that book came out.
Peter
48:15
I don't know. Interesting. Well, like I say, i i i it's memorable to me, but I don't think it's great. Where do you think it goes?
Eden
48:23
Probably see them.
Peter
48:24
It's kind of what I'm thinking as well.
Eden
48:27
Alright, New Heart. Do I like New Heart? Not as much as the Bob Newhart show. Do I like that in the series finale for this show He woke the fuck up and the whole show was a dream that Bob Newhart from the Bob Newhart show was having. That's a power move.
Peter
48:47
It is. It is. That's a power move. It is.
Eden
48:51
So that makes me want to put it higher on the list than I think the show baby would get if it didn't have that audacious uh series finale Okay. Uh I don't know. What are your thoughts on New Heart?
Peter
49:01
You know, I I don't remember it a ton other than that ending. And so I'm kind of You know, I think it's sort of upper level middle of the run for row for me.
Eden
49:11
Maybe it's another B. art that Is a thing that we you know, uh none of the other shows on here are are really in the conversation, but is a thing that I'm thinking about when it comes to sitcoms. How common it is for the man to be able to go on and be the dad in multiple sitcom families. Uh-huh. Mom doesn't get that. Mom doesn't get that. Tim Allen's done it like three times. Yep. Uh you know, uh any of these people from these shows? Not really. I mean, I guess uh Ed Bundy From Married with Children, although he's like the patriarch of a whole family in modern family, he still gets to go and be like, you know, the sitcom dad in a way that he was in Married with Children in a new show.
Peter
49:59
It's true.
Eden
50:00
The wives don't get to do that.
Peter
50:02
Yeah. Yep. Okay, well we'll put it in the C. Uh just a few more to be sexual sexism.
Eden
50:08
What can I say?
Peter
50:09
It's I mean, it's absolutely still a thing, sadly. Um family matters.
Eden
50:15
Was it a pretty funny show? Yes. Did it curse us all with Urkel?
Peter
50:20
It did. It so much did.
Eden
50:23
And here's the thing, is like I I think I remember the first The first few episodes, like the first couple seasons being pretty good, but as Urkel became a cultural phenomenon, it became a the show really diminished.
Peter
50:37
Yes.
Eden
50:38
as he became no longer the peppering in sill silly main side character, but instead the locus upon which the show's uh motor moves. Uh I think it weakens the show as a whole. And I think that ultimately the show is not really worth revisiting because I don't want to hear, did I do that? for a hundred episodes.
Peter
51:00
So what are you thinking? D or C? D. That's coming. Curse it with a D. That's what I was thinking. All right. Next up, cheers. S TRP. Oh good. I was we already had three up there. I was worried there was gonna be a discussion there, disputation there, but cheers not only was it huge at the time It absolutely still is a watchable, enjoyable show.
Eden
51:27
The only thing that makes me uncomfortable when I'm watching Cheers. is looking at the men in that bar and thinking they're a decade younger than me.
Peter
51:39
It's so true and painful.
Eden
51:41
So when that show starts, most of that cast is in their early thirties and they look like they're sixty-five.
Peter
51:49
It is. It is very true.
Eden
51:51
And like I understand aging is a thing. I saw a thing going around social media last week. I was telling Cassie about it yesterday. Uh, where it is this picture of Sean Connery at the age of 34 and some twink actor I've never heard of, who's also 34. Sean Connery at 34 looks like he's 55. Yep. Like he looks he's a it's a good 55, he's a hot 55, don't get it twisted. Attractive man But he looks, he's got, you know, uh, you know, a weathered brow and craggy features and just looks like a man who's lived years.
Peter
52:26
Yep.
Eden
52:27
This twink actor who I've never heard of looks generously 16 and turned 34. And I'm like, is it because we don't put the lead in the gas? Is it cause we don't smoke anymore?
Peter
52:41
I was gonna say you're not getting all that secondhand smoke in every restaurant you go to.
Eden
52:47
And, you know, uh far be it from me to, you know, be glad and rest on our laurels about these regulations since we have people trying to take all these regulations away from us now. But you gotta admit, we're looking pretty good for our age compared to the guys in Cheers, Peter.
Peter
53:03
We so much are. We so are, and I'm I'm grateful for that. But yes, I try not to think I try not to think about the the ages of offense.
Eden
53:11
You look at c you look at Cliff, he's thirty-three when that show starts and he looks like a fucking grandpa.
Peter
53:18
Yep. Receding hairline, he's got the mustache. It just yeah, no, it's
Eden
53:22
I'm nine I'm ten years older than him at the start of that show right now.
Peter
53:27
Yep. Tis true. Okay, a few more. Here we we've got the wonder years. Thoughts on the Wonder Years.
Eden
53:36
Treakly, uh sentimental bullshit. I feel about it the way I do about stand by me. Terrible. I don't will n I will never respect the fifties. Get out of town.
Peter
53:46
All right. You know, it's one of these that I remember liking when it w first came on because it was doing Because you had a crush on Winnie. Uh yeah, you're not wrong. Um but it was doing this thing where it was Okay, we know we had this, it was kind of this retro look and the we had the narration and stuff, so it felt a little different, but it is not a great show and it's not something that you can go back and watch. So what do you think? D or C
Eden
54:13
Uh D. I have no nostalgia for the 50s and I hate boomer nostalgia for the 50s ontologically.
Peter
54:19
Zero for that either. Okay, perfect strangers. I'm gonna say when I was a kid, I thought it was hilarious, and anything about it now I just find grating and horribly annoying.
Eden
54:31
Yeah, at the time I thought it was really funny.
Peter
54:34
Belkie was really funny, and now I think to myself, this sh how many episodes did this show get? Yeah, I don't even know, but too many.
Eden
54:41
Too many, too many Like a C at tops.
Peter
54:44
Okay.
Eden
54:45
I like not Belky. I like the cousin.
Peter
54:48
Yeah.
Eden
54:49
He seems cool. I like his I like his like Jerry curls.
Peter
54:52
Uh-huh. Yep.
Eden
54:54
That's all I remember about that show, cringe and Jerry Curls.
Peter
54:57
Okay. Our last one, Growing Pains. Do you remember Growing Pains at all?
Eden
55:02
Is this the Kurt Kirk Cameron.
Peter
55:04
This is. This is the Kirk Cameron show. And and here's what I'm gonna say about it. And I don't know timing-wise where they fell out, but in my mind, Growing Pains was like the more nauseating try-hard version of family ties.
Eden
55:20
Yeah, it feels like family ties, but for like TBN.
Peter
55:25
Yep. Yep. I don't think it's different.
Eden
55:27
To be fair, that is who that is who Kurt Cameron is now. He's the guy who's going on Videos with some guy some weird like Australian guy to be like, oh, this is proof that God made us because a banana is the exact shape of what you're fighting. hand looks like let me jack off this banana in this picture to show you and you're like what are you guys doing uh D I agree D
Peter
55:50
Well there we have it. I think we've got a pretty good ranking and it's you know it's kind of nice to see Golden Girls Night Court Taxi and Cheers up there in the S tier. I think that's a pretty good uh pretty good block of S tier And I think our SNA tier, those are some strong things that I could see myself, you know, going back and subjecting at least uh at least Gareth to because, you know He just keeps watching the same shows over and over again. So maybe I need to watch the show.
Eden
56:18
You should absolutely make him watch Who's the Boss?
Peter
56:20
I should. I should. All right. Well Any other thoughts or comments before we wrap it up this week, Eden?
Eden
56:29
No, my thought looking at that S tier is like, I'd watch any of those shows. Will I watch any of those shows? No, I don't watch TV.
Peter
56:35
Yeah, totally. I I've had this thought, and and the problem is, is so there's this thing you can do. There's this program called Channels, and it's realistically it's for people who have set up like over the air, you know, set like IPTV type stuff. But but it has a thing that I've heard people talk about. Where you can go into Lycaplex library and say, I want you to create for me a channel from these different shows and it will just randomly you could go to it and launch that and it'll just be randomly like live TV playing a show from that group of shows that you told it to and just kind of randomly go through and shuffle them around. And I there's a part of me that goes, that might be fun to set up and get running just to like turn on and have in the background and stuff. But then I think about the amount of energy it would take to do that and I go, yeah, I'm not gonna do that. So
Eden
57:29
Here's the thing. If you want to replicate the feel of terrestrial television in that way, Pluto. tv is there for you.
Peter
57:36
It's true.
Eden
57:37
They have hundreds of channels that you can just go through and have be playing in the background of your life.
Peter
57:43
Yep And I think about doing that and I go, well, I don't want to do that either. So Yeah, I think about that.
Eden
57:49
I'm like, oh, I should just turn it on. You know we have a big screen up on the Tv on the sh uh F uh f wall. Uh I don't know what words are. I have a screen on the wall that Cassie uses when she sits on the couch and snuggles with the dogs. I could just angle it towards me when I'm at my desk here and like watch shows while I'm doing work and I don't do that.
Peter
58:08
Yep.
Eden
58:09
I turn on a podcast. I listen to a podcast.
Peter
58:11
That's about what I do too. So well, we'll go ahead and wrap it up then today. And we will be back in another couple of weeks. Until then, thanks for listening. Give it a sh like, a thumbs up, a rating, and share with other folks. And we'll chat again in another couple weeks.
Eden
58:29
Yeah, go listen to our other podcast. Go listen to Generations that uh Peter hosts with uh his daughter Aubrey. Go listen to the book.
Peter
58:36
And go listen to devotees. Yeah. It's uh it's great. So See a couple of weeks. There we go. Kate. Bye.