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Pathways To Spirit is hosted by Dr. Troy Melendez and Dr. Nate Velez of Journey to Recovery, offering an inside look at the people, practices, and purpose behind a culturally grounded approach to healing from addiction. Through conversations with the Journey to Recovery team, the podcast explores the program’s history, its new facility, and the clinical and cultural principles that guide their work. Pathways To Spirit provides a welcoming space to learn how Community, culture, and connection support the recovery journey, and how this program is shaping a path toward wellness and a deeper sense of spirit.
Welcome to Pathways to Spirit. Our journey today seeks to honor the sacred land, revered teachings, and ancestral wisdom that guide us through the path of mental health wellness and holistic recovery. Together we'll explore the stories of strength, healing and hope, embracing the clinical techniques and cultural foundations that remind us we are never alone on this sacred journey toward wellness and a strong personal connection to Spirit. Welcome back to Pathways to Spirit. I'm Doctor.
Troy:Troy Melendez, and with me is my cohost, Doctor. Nate Velez. Today we're going to focus on a concept that has become a cornerstone of our work at Journey to Recovery, something we call stickiness. You've heard us talk about it in previous episodes, and today we're going to take a deep dive into the topic. Stickiness is more than a philosophy.
Troy:It's the feeling of connection that keeps people close and the sense of belonging that brings them back when they need help. The love and support that make recovery possible is possible with stickiness, and it's one of the reasons this community has become a place where healing takes root. Alright.
Nate:Alright. Well, hi hi everybody, and how you doing today, doc? This is really a oh, man. What an exciting topic.
Troy:Yes. It's been part of kind of the philosophy that that we've engaged with while building, the continuum of of treatment here at JTR, and I think you brought it to us four years ago when we started all of this, and this idea of stickiness. Were you early on, what were you hoping to kind of communicate to folks? What was your vision of what stickiness would become, and and have we exceeded that vision at this point?
Nate:Yeah. Well, thanks for the question. You know, I I'm a huge Carl Rogers fan
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:And his theory of humanistic humanism and humanistic approach to to caring for people. Mhmm. And, you know, in in in that theory and by the way, he's still I think he's still the number one on the most psychological preferred orientations of all time. Oh, sure. And so when you think about Carl Rogers in the July early mid seventies, he he talked a lot about and back then, it was it was theoretical.
Nate:He talked a lot about the environment. Mhmm. He he likened that to cultivating the soil Okay. And preparing conditions for growth similar to farming and agriculture. He came from a family that that was in that business.
Nate:Mhmm. And and he also talked about this concept that you don't have to have all these degrees and all these licenses and all this training, that that was extra.
Troy:Right.
Nate:That people in the helping profession who can prepare these conditions naturally came to the profession with he called an aura or an ambiance around them that people gravitated towards. And if we set the right conditions by providing some basic ingredients of empathy and genuineness and unconditional positive regard, and that we can naturally create an environment of growth where people want to and can move towards this concept of growth from an acorn to an oak tree, he would say.
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:Right? And so I've always loved that theoretical approach. Fast forward twenty years, they actually started studying it. And, I think there's some research in the heart of soul of change and, you know, some some meta analytic work that talks about what are the conditions that set forth the variance and change, and there's four variables that actually been studied and scientifically verified that are significant. And the top two variables are the relationship you have with people and and hope.
Nate:Yeah. And so I always thought of that as like, well, jeez, that's not very hard to do. Like Of course. Yeah. Profession, In we should have relationships with people, and we should dream and create environments about the possibility of change that's it's hopeful.
Nate:It's a hopeful thing. And Mhmm. And so I I always thought of it kinda like this Velcro Velcro, like, sticky
Troy:Okay.
Nate:Velcro approach to, like, oh, jeez. If we can get people to stick to us Right. We can influence outcomes. Of course. The science says it.
Nate:Right. And so that's where I I come up with this concept of, like, yeah, let's be sticky.
Troy:Okay.
Nate:Right? Let's be sticky.
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:So it's kinda like a scientific concept made real simple Sure. If you will.
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:You know? But that's the philosophy, and so I thought if we can bring that to our environment, that can be contagious. Right. If we talk about it, if we, you know, manage to it, if we train to
Troy:it. Mhmm.
Nate:It's just kinda like this word I started using, and what is it? What is it? And everybody who started onboarding, and and we put it into our slogan of connection, support, love, and hope,
Troy:and Mhmm.
Nate:It's just something that kinda grew legs, and I think I'm really pleased with where we're at with it because it's actually a common term now in the community.
Troy:Right. Right. And I guess what I appreciate most about how it evolved is it was never really presented or engaged as a technique. It was more of a way of being. It was, we're creating that environment.
Troy:We're creating that, you know, psychological environment, the physical environment. We've got this beautiful new facility that's got very inviting spaces and calming spaces. It's those types of things that create that sticky aspect of it that people want to be there, people want to stay there. And then you mentioned the relationships and to engage with our clinical staff and our support staff and encouraging them to keep that stickiness in mind. How are we engaging someone in a manner that they'll want to reengage us?
Troy:And then I think kind of most importantly for me is when folks have because the process of change and the process of recovery is a long process. It's very often not a linear process and so we'll have some folks leave us a little early. But they come back. They find whatever it was they thought was out there and they realize no, I was on the right path. Which is a very difficult thing for someone in recovery to leave treatment and then actually be able to come back and feel good about that.
Troy:But we have so many that do and that's what really moves me is that we've created this environment that even somebody that's vulnerable and maybe has some shame or guilt about leaving early
Nate:Mhmm.
Troy:Mhmm. They know that the environment's gonna accept them.
Nate:Yeah. I'm glad you said that because like, I was thinking that when you said the word, like, even in the lowest of lows, and shame and guilt is this is it's really affects many people at this stage Mhmm. Of change in their life, and they don't they don't feel ostracized. Mhmm. They don't feel shame to say, hey.
Nate:I wanna go back and try it again. Right. When we meet them and receive them, we treat them with the same love the first time they got here. Like, we we actually we actually tell them, I'm glad you're back.
Troy:Right.
Nate:Great to see you.
Troy:Yep. Yep.
Nate:Right? Like, who says that? Right. Like, we say that.
Troy:Yes.
Nate:We say that. We say, glad you're here. Glad to see you. And we pick up again with no regret and no conception or perceptions of what happened in the past, but here we are right where we're at. We meet them right where they're at Right.
Nate:With that same that same philosophy.
Troy:Yeah. And I think it's a it's a powerful moment for those folks when they do come back and they're expecting, you know, maybe to be reprimanded or they're expecting, you know, to be told, oh, I told you so. You needed this. And and when they don't get any of that, the first words that somebody says is, Welcome back. Glad you made it back to us.
Troy:Yeah. And so it really, I think it creates an opportunity for them to move out of that isolation, the shame and the guilt that creates that isolation and realize like, no, this is a safe place. This is where people care about me. This is where I'm gonna be safe and I'm gonna be able to have hope about where I'm headed with this. Yeah.
Troy:And so it's an essential part of recovery. And I think that we're blessed here in this community to be able to really work around a lot of the more administrative things that might prevent an institution from being sticky. And what we're offered here is that opportunity to create that environment and bring these people back and help them to see that, yeah, this is the place that you need to be right now.
Nate:Yeah. And when you have that environment where people feel welcome all the time irregardless of their ailment or their pain, right, they come to a place where they want relief Mhmm. Albeit JTR, behavioral health outpatient, downstairs in River People Primary Care. Mhmm. Like, this far this has started to kinda extend beyond behavioral health.
Troy:Oh,
Nate:sure. And so when you have an environment where people feel that safety you talked about and that opportunity to feel confident, not not cautious Mhmm. You know, I think you you enhance the opportunity for people to walk into another opportunity to change and or try it again. Right. You know, this is awesome.
Nate:Mhmm.
Troy:You know? Yeah. I think it definitely it it increases the likelihood that someone's going to reach out for help and reduces that stigma that's attached to getting that help. And I like that you said, we're starting to see this move into the other areas of healthcare and where people are more willing to come in and engage staff and, you know, pay attention to their health and
Nate:Mhmm.
Troy:Take action, you know, and have that motivation to to really be healthier, and engage the resources that they have available to them.
Nate:Oh, yeah. And, you know, you can feel that. You know, we even in in our own lives, we we gravitate towards people and, you know, environments where we feel supported
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:Or providers that we feel supported. And our counselors, like, they they do a really good job at this. They do a really good job. And even our peers and our techs, like, everybody knows this philosophy, and it's a requirement to work here.
Troy:Right.
Nate:Right?
Troy:Right.
Nate:Because if you can't be sticky, may not be the place for you.
Troy:Oh, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nate:We take it pretty seriously.
Troy:Very. Yeah. And we see the the benefits of this this stickiness in action every day. Mean, mentioned folks that come back after some interruption. People that stick with us through the continuum.
Troy:We've got a continuum that spans six months for sure, could be nine months depending on are they going over to River People for IOP. And then we have the opportunity of the Peer Academy that can extend somebody through a full year of recovery, which greatly, greatly increases their chances of being successful long term. But I think it's, you know, we've moved away from the walking up the ramp and now we've got a bridge for We've folks some to symbolism there. But really being able to see how that stickiness allows people to cross that bridge, to go up that ramp, to have those moments commitment and engaging the hope of recovery. And then I also see through, you know, we're adding more of the cultural practices and more traditional approaches.
Troy:And that brings that stickiness into culture and into the community. And where so many folks as I go through the peer academy and as the graduates speak on the impact of their recovery and the impact of their addiction through recovery and their willingness or desire to give back to the community, make amends to the community, to become another integral part of the community. That stickiness extends to their community involvement. And so through that I'm very hopeful that what we'll see long term is that there's going to be more involvement you know, in the community and then that's going to impact our children. And so maybe we have less of a need in this community as we go on, as we're able to kind of move down in ages and address these situations and at some point, even prevent a lot of this, for young people coming up.
Nate:Yeah. You know, you hit on a lot of things there, and I think one thing that I heard really clearly from you is that, see, the philosophy of being sticky, it it you mentioned people stay with us through the continuum. And, you know, you have this environment where they they want to grow. They want to grow. They want to be held accountable.
Nate:But here's the thing about relationships, and you know this Mhmm. About because sometimes being a therapist or being a helper, people think it's always warm and fuzzy. Right. Well, in this line of work, there's some confronting. Yes.
Nate:And there's some challenging Mhmm. Blind spots Right. And behaviors, and there's amends to make, and there's you know, we call that Johari window.
Troy:Right.
Nate:Right? Where they may have blind spots that they may not see, that part of the process is to bring that to the forefront Mhmm. And uncover some things that are in the shadows or in the dark. And so when you when you lead with the ability to be sticky and provide an environment of love and condition unconditionally accept people where they're at as they are. Mhmm.
Nate:I think that you you also it lends support to be able to challenge old behavior, old thoughts, old practices. Right. All these these pain points they've created in their lives Mhmm. Where you won't be able to do that if you don't have a relationship with them. Right.
Nate:And so as you establish that relationship, that sticky approach, now you're able to break in to some of the maladaptive behaviors through through their recovery that they need a little bit of challenging and confronting on.
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:The other thing you you mentioned, which is really important, is that when you have an environment where people don't feel threatened but actually feel loved
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:And supported with challenge, you you extend the possibility of them being here longer. Right. And in our environment, that that leads to really good outcomes. Mhmm. And we're seeing that.
Nate:We're seeing that. You mentioned the peer support academy. You mentioned you know what? We when they come into detox, we're sticking to them and loving them up, and we're talking about what's next. Right.
Nate:And our conversion rate from detox to sober living residential hall is really high, eighty plus percentile. Yeah. Yeah. And then from from residential to PHP and other eighty percent, then ninety five percent of folks finish PHP and stay sober and stay with us over a year, and many of those folks work for us now. So you create an environment of contingency management.
Nate:So you're blending this philosophy that actually is impacted by the science of contingency.
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:And that is really moving to see. And without that, you can't do that. You can't create longevity.
Troy:Right.
Nate:And we know science says people need long term care and treatment to overcome this this, you know, this syndrome, this disorder, this disease. Mhmm. Right? And so it it lends so well to approach and care. It does.
Nate:It does. It does. It does.
Troy:Yeah. And I think it's it's really beneficial for us as we, you know, look at how how is this stickiness cultivated at JTR. And you you just walked through it that it starts with somebody that comes to us for recovery management. And we're we're showing them that stickiness and then they engage in that as they go through the continuum. And then they come to us as staff and they understand it because they've lived that concept of stickiness.
Troy:Oh, yeah. And they're picking it up themselves and they're seeing that, hey, this is how I benefited from it, and so I wanna continue this for the folks that are coming in after me.
Nate:Oh, yeah. You know, and this is a true story. I I had a patient discharge. We had a patient discharge about a month ago, and he I got a message
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:That so and so wanted to see me in the unit. And I go, okay. No problem. I'll I'll I usually go down there a couple times a day, and I'll I stop by on aft the day after work. And I said, hey.
Nate:You wanted to see me? And he goes, oh, hey, doc. I'm so glad you came. I have something for you.
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:And I said, for me? And he said, yes. Yes. I have something for you. I'm coining out tomorrow, and I wanted to give you something.
Troy:Uh-huh.
Nate:And he wrote me a letter. Mhmm. And it impacted me so much. Mhmm. You you don't even know when you're doing it how much it impacts somebody else.
Troy:Right.
Nate:And he talked about the love and support, and I read it in front of I asked if I could read it in front of him, and he and he allowed me to. And at the end, it said, you know, he he loved JTR. Uh-huh. And and then he said I said, well, thank you for this letter. And he said, of course, doc.
Nate:I love you, man. Mhmm. And the vulnerability Right. To be able to go, love you too, buddy.
Troy:Right.
Nate:Love you too.
Troy:Uh-huh.
Nate:Like, that's unreal. And and, like, you're you're trained in the helping profession about boundaries and lines, but Sure. This philosophy allows you to meet people where they're at and be vulnerable. Right. Be vulnerable Mhmm.
Nate:To be able to do that and and say that. And I'm I don't hesitate doing that Right. At all. Right? No.
Nate:Yeah. Giving somebody a hug in action, patting somebody on the back Uh-huh. Sitting down and crying with somebody
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:Sitting back down and celebrating with somebody. That vulnerability demonstrates human connection. Right. And that's what being sticky is all about in action. It's also we try and teach our techs and our peers, like, give people space.
Troy:Right.
Nate:Give people space for the circumstance
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:To have a moment and get through some of their frustration sometimes. Mhmm. And then follow-up with, you know, simple, are you okay, and how you doing, or what do you need from me? You know? And so those little concepts of inaction really demonstrate our continual movement towards being better.
Nate:Being Joe talks about this too, being the best at getting better. Right. And so I think that's really important for us to always keep in mind Mhmm. In any level. At any level.
Troy:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like how that that environment and that approach allows us to continue to grow this concept and this, you know, environment of stickiness. I know what I mean.
Troy:I I struggle even to say like a concept or, you know, because it's not a technique. It's not a concept. It's it's more of, like we said before, it's a way of being. It's a it's a way of creating an environment that people are gonna want to be a part of.
Nate:Yeah. It's a way of being, and we always learn that the best tool we have in the helping profession is the use of self. Mhmm. And so how are you gonna use yourself?
Troy:Right.
Nate:To your point is how are you gonna be?
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:And so and, you know, we do this work intentionally. Right? I mean, you just told me today you ordered, I don't know, so many more books about, you know, what we teach our peers. Right. And what's our book our book's name?
Nate:I just lost my train of thought there.
Troy:Book. The Gift of Therapy?
Nate:The Gift of Therapy. Yes. It it talks about these little nuances Oh, yes. On how to help people. Uh-huh.
Troy:You know? Yeah. I love to to lead those groups with our with our peer staff. You know, they're they're our newest staff and they're most new to the profession and have that lived experience, which I think is a really important factor. We've got so many staff that work for us that have that lived experience and are successfully making recovery part of their lives and moving forward in their lives and in their recovery.
Troy:Their ability to share that with others is increased through these trainings that we provide for them. They see that, oh, there's some I do that all the time, but I didn't know it was called that. Or that I struggle with these particular interactions, but I look at it through the concept of motivational interviewing and it's easier for me to then create that discrepancy. I don't have to challenge a patient. I can take in what their view is and I can help them explore that more.
Troy:Yeah. Rather than saying, No, no, that's not it. You've got to do this instead. I think that we as staff learn from that too. I improve as a clinician through the interactions with folks and seeing how our efforts are taken in and what they do with that.
Troy:And then being there in the moment. I had an interaction the other day where there was a patient that was having a rough time and wasn't really handling their frustration well in their interactions with staff. I, you know, I observed for a while and kind of hung back and didn't want to intervene. I let staff handle it. And then there was an opportunity to sit with that person and engage them.
Troy:And you could see how as they calmed down, as they felt comfortable, they became more vulnerable and were more open to maybe I didn't read that situation right. Maybe I'm not using the techniques and the skills because I can empathize with them. Do breath work all the time and when I need it the most, that's when I want to do it the least. And just acknowledging that, that hey, in my own life that when I need to use these techniques, don't want to. And that recognition from the patient to see you can see that it clicked for them that it's like, I don't ever wanna do it too.
Troy:But them acknowledging that, well, that's that's normal.
Nate:Mhmm.
Troy:That's a common part of this, and we've gotta assert our will in those situations and create a new habit.
Nate:Oh, yeah. I love that. And, you know, one of the things I think about is so we talked earlier about how this started as a way of being Mhmm. In our line. Mhmm.
Nate:And and now this has kinda trans has transformed behavior behavioral health division
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:Not just in JTR. We we we kinda all speak this and be this.
Troy:Right.
Nate:Right? Yeah. An outpatient where this is our language. This is our way. The answer is yes.
Nate:Now what's your question? Right. You know, mindset. And, so yesterday, I was in a council work session.
Troy:Okay.
Nate:And we were talking about our traditional cultural program. And Mhmm. Councilman Dallas gave feedback, which was all good feedback. Everybody gave good feedback, and but councilman Dallas used the word sticky.
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:And so this is just an example of people get it. Right. People understand it.
Troy:Uh-huh.
Nate:And people know it to be true, and they know our way of being, and they know how we do our work, and it's actually contagious.
Troy:Right.
Nate:And so I love that it's gone from our peer support level
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:All the way up to our leadership.
Troy:Right.
Nate:Through our patients. Mhmm. Through our providers.
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:Through our executive government.
Troy:Right.
Nate:And so, you know, you hear this, and it's it's just a proud thing that we've we're we're using this to transform a community.
Troy:Right.
Nate:And it's a simple concept.
Troy:Right.
Nate:Simple way of being.
Troy:Uh-huh. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's it's definitely in line with kind of the traditional approach in this community of
Nate:It is.
Troy:Of being welcoming and being a helper, being a good human, being a good relative. I think it falls in line with that and and really just helps us to see how this can kind of permeate all areas of interaction and not just in healthcare but in just in community relations and the way we treat each other, the way that we see each other. I mean just the opportunities for someone that needs this sort of assistance and treatment, and the view that the community has had of folks that need this particular treatment has greatly improved. Not only over the last maybe ten or fifteen years, but certainly over the last four or five years with the addition of all these great resources and the expansion of these programs and how we're working more hand in hand with our outpatient partners, it's really beginning to grow and take hold within the whole community.
Nate:Oh, I agree. I agree
Troy:totally. So we cultivate the stickiness. It creates those hopeful outcomes. We've reflected a little bit on aspects of stickiness that, you know, that we've experienced in here. Where do we go from here?
Nate:Mhmm. Well, it's real simple. We keep doing what works. Mhmm. And where we go from here is, you know, honestly, I've talked to Joe about this, our director, and, you know, it I think we we we expand it.
Troy:Right.
Nate:We expand it into HHS.
Troy:Mhmm.
Nate:And it's starting to happen. Right? But I think we train to it. Right. We hire to it.
Nate:Mhmm. We listen for it Right. In interviews. Right? We design questions around, is this person appropriate for our culture and our way of being?
Nate:Right. And we cultivate it, and we protect it, and we grow it. And I think that's intentional in everything we do.
Troy:Right.
Nate:And the other part of this is is when we see when we don't see it, we call it out. Right. And and when we don't behave that way, we call it out. Mhmm. And so we look to environments of accountability when we're not following our way of being.
Nate:Mhmm. And so with each other, with our patients
Troy:Right.
Nate:With the community. And to your point, it's it's easy to do when you're in this business, and it should be easy to do because it fits the tradition Right. And the way of life. And so I I think that's where we go from here. And the fact that we're talking about this way of being Right.
Nate:That's where we go from here. More people will hear this. I'm in the process of designing a shirt
Troy:Alright.
Nate:So that we all get one, and and it's a really cool shirt.
Troy:Alright. Okay. Yeah. We could end on this. Yeah.
Nate:Let me read this definition. So we designed we designed this shirt because where we go from here is we want people to see it Right. Away from just JTOR and behavioral health and downstairs. We wanna broadcast it, and that's why we're talking about it. So I was working with our marketing administrator, Jessica Dalton, and she said, let's put it on a shirt, and let's define it.
Nate:And I said, great. Let's do that. And so I wanna read to you kind of what the the definition of stickiness is
Troy:Okay.
Nate:That I came up with. And Mhmm. And it says the quality of treatment experience, the environment, and the culture Mhmm. That makes people want to stay connected.
Troy:Right.
Nate:It's built on connection. It's built on trust and belonging where people feel seen, safe, supported, and a part of something meaningful. It's not about keeping people in treatment. It's about being a place they don't wanna leave. And so I think that kinda captures
Troy:Right.
Nate:What it is. Very much. And so we wanna replicate this and put it everywhere.
Troy:I love it.
Nate:That's that's my vision for it, and I hope that that that sticks and takes. Mhmm.
Troy:But
Nate:I think it is, it's growing legs and it it is, it's a simple thing to do. Yeah. Great work. Great work. Thank you.
Troy:Thanks for joining me today.
Nate:Oh, it's a pleasure to be here. This is my favorite.
Troy:Yeah. Good work. Good work. Thank you for joining us on Pathways to Spirit. We're grateful that you took the opportunity to spend this time with us, and we hope today's conversation helped you to understand the concept of stickiness and why it matters so much in the work that we do.
Troy:If you're listening today and walking through a difficult moment, please know this, you're not alone. There's always a place for you here, a place where you're welcomed, valued, and held with compassion. Healing is not often a straight path, it doesn't have to be. What matters is staying connected, returning when you need support, and allowing others to walk alongside you. We hope you found something meaningful, something grounding, and maybe even something that gives you a little more courage for the road ahead.
Troy:And if you or someone you care about needs help, we encourage you to reach out. There's hope, there's support, and there's always a way forward. Until next time, may you move with kindness towards yourself, stay connected to those who care for you, and find strength in every step of your journey. Be a good relative and be well. Thanks folks.
Troy:Thank you for joining us on Pathways to Spirit. Remember, within our traditions and our spirit lies connection, support, love, and hope. Let us walk forward together, honoring our paths and supporting one another on the journey toward physical, emotional, and spiritual health and wholeness. Until next time, may the spirits of the ancestors guide you, and may you find peace, healing, and renewal in every step along your journey.