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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Paul: Hey, good morning Paul.
Morning, Tom.
How you doing?
Whew.
Doing well.
We are recording on a
Friday morning today.
It's early.
It's early.
I forced Tom to walk through the rain to
at six in the morning to get here on time.
I
Tom: didn't walk.
I took an Uber, but it, I do think
there's maybe something about a rainy
cold morning like this that puts me in the
mindset of Marcus Aurelius on the On the
battlefield or in the camps or whatever.
It's a cool kind of contemplative morning.
Yeah.
Which I think is the right vibe.
You
fought
Paul: your own battle this morning?
No, I just, I called in then
in, then out of the Uber.
Call it
Tom: an Uber.
It you battled.
It was very straightforward.
Okay.
But yeah, I'm excited to be here
and start reading chapter two.
Yeah.
Book two of the meditations.
Paul: Tom it's been two weeks
since we recorded Book one.
How has meditations impacted your life?
Tom: I was thinking about that
this morning before we recorded.
I'm not gonna pretend that reading
the first chapter of the book really
changed my life but I have been thinking
a little bit about stoicism and this
philosophy and the extent to which.
It's something new to me versus something
that I already had in my bones that it's
just bringing to light and I think I
realized that I have at least some, I
think, already stoic tendencies in my own
life that I maybe wouldn't have for sure.
Put those words to before we
read that book two weeks ago.
So maybe that's how it's changed my
life is I have some new vocabulary
for labeling some habits that I.
Had That's actually really
Paul: funny that you phrase it the
way, I think that's exactly the same
impact reading the reading meditations
has had on me so far, really?
Which is that I have this fancy new word
that I'm throwing around and everyone I
need, and I'm constantly complimenting
people in my life That's so stoic.
You unstowed, okay.
I'm pretty sure I'm using it wrong.
Okay.
Yeah.
Or it's very broad, but I'm not sure.
Yeah.
The reactions I get aren't.
All that joyful people do.
I don't know if people
are all that complimented.
Tom: What might be confusing about
that is I think that there's this
English sense of the word stoic.
Ah, that's true.
Which is a little bit different than the
sort of philosophical sense of the word.
That's true.
Stoic.
That's true.
And it's a so I'm
Paul: just calling people emotionally.
It's neutral to how
Tom: emotional, to somewhat
negative to call a person stoic.
It's like it's old-fashioned
manliness yeah.
So that's what I've been doing.
Okay.
I would say when I said I have a new
vocabulary, I didn't really actually
mean the word stoic, specifically being
something that I'm using more for.
For the record, I knew that word.
Paul: Okay.
Even before we started Red Book one, so
Tom: Okay.
Let it be known.
Okay, good.
Yeah.
Paul: But yes, I guess I'm not
surprised I didn't use it as much.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I felt I got on the defensive there.
I'm sorry.
Tom: That's okay.
So one place where that kind of new
vocabulary or manifested for me is I
went through a breakup recently and I
was thinking about what just evaluating
my own reaction, to that breakup.
And I noticed that I have a tendency,
and I think this has always been true,
it's not a consequence of reading the
chapters to be very focused on what I
could control and what I might have.
Differently.
I think some people and then I'm
not saying this is good or bad,
but have a tendency after a breakup
to have a lot of anger at another
person or think about other external
circumstances that cause stuff.
And that is not my instinct.
Yeah.
I'm not, and that's not, I'm not saying
that's good or bad, but I might be bad.
Yeah.
It might be bad.
I agree.
But it felt a bit resonant.
Stoicism.
Yeah.
To me, yeah.
That it's a obviously
relationships are not exactly that.
Like a romantic relationship
is not something where I'm
guided by duty necessarily.
Yeah.
In the same way.
But that was just a part of
my life where I was thinking a
little bit about Marcus Aurelius.
Yeah.
Paul: Actually, I think knowing you
in real life, I, I do actually think
you are extremely stoic stoic, not
just in the English definition, but
in the philosophical definition.
think that's nice and I think maybe some
of the things that I know just personally
that you're, you want to potentially
change about yourself are the things that
are the other side of that sword of yeah.
Being overly stoic and not
letting yourself be sad about
this fact that, there are things
that you can't control and Yeah.
Sorry not to wake.
Tom: Yeah, no that's okay.
Yeah.
My, I guess my reaction to that is and I
think you're, I think I agree with you.
My perspective on it
is I did try to be sad.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, there's some Marcus
Aurelius's voice in my head that
says, nothing to be done about this.
Yeah.
Moving on.
Yeah.
Yeah so I guess that's something
I'll be keeping an eye on as we
move forward in the meditations,
is does he talk about that at all?
Does he talk about how to balance the,
the need to feel, the stuff that's.
You, even if it's outside of your control.
Yeah.
With the philosophy spasm here.
That's a good
Paul: one.
Wow.
Yeah, imagine breaking up with Marcus,
Tom: just I don't think anyone did.
I think he's never been broken
up with the history though.
Yeah.
You just
Paul: had 17 kids with his wife.
Tom: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
I can't imagine that leaves
much time to have a bunch of
breakups and other relationships.
It would've
Paul: been so unsatisfying.
Marcus, I've been thinking about this.
And I just don't know
if we're meant for each
Tom: other.
Imagine the quality of the book
he could have written if his life
had also contained some breakups.
Paul: I know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The guy has yeah, his, yeah, that's right.
He's got a pretty streamlined life.
Yeah.
And yet he has all this trouble
maintaining not trouble, but
he has, he puts all this energy
in it into maintaining his.
State.
Tom: Yeah, we did get some details.
I'm not remembering this precisely
or the first chapter though, about,
I think in his gratitude to the gods.
He was, one of the things he was grateful
for was not losing his virginity too
early and not becoming Oh, that's true.
A man too quickly, basically.
Oh yeah.
That's nice.
Which, who knows, maybe
there were some Right.
Young dalliances in
Marcus Aurelius's life.
Some, although way he was,
from what his early teenage.
Is going to be the emperor.
Yeah, exactly.
Who's gonna flirt with that?
Who's saying or saying no, do it or saying
Paul: yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
I also much less meaningful, but
I also had a a downturn events in,
in life which where I also practice
those as I hadn't thought about it.
The event was just it was just
work performance related and.
The, and it was something where I
had known, so I I am a founder at a
startup and we had a month, our month
was worse than we had projected.
Okay.
So we didn't grow as
much as we had projected.
Yeah.
The, so the stoic part of it is that I had
been preparing myself mentally for this.
For like years.
Oh really?
Yes, absolutely.
That's what stoicism is, right?
Or at least I don't know what
stoicism, but what I think stoicism
is just constantly reminding yourself
that when you are growing that
well think this might not continue.
This too shall end.
And and just being ready, like we
had financial models for everything,
for what would happen when the,
with the downturn, all these things.
And the reason and of
course it happened, yeah.
All of that was.
And it still
Tom: hurt.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Okay.
So did that, given that you had been
bracing for this moment for years, and it
hurt, nevertheless, does that change your
thinking about the value of the brace?
I guess it would've hurt more.
Okay.
Paul: Boy, I simultaneously felt
like when it happened, I felt
like, oh, it's such old news.
Oh, I'm so beyond this.
Who can't, I already had
internalized it so deeply.
Okay.
May, and probably if I, I think
the alternative way to run a
company which is not stoic, is just
I guess the hedonistic way to run
a company is yeah, let's grow it.
Let's grow another 20% this month.
It's, yeah.
And then just, I guess just dealing
with it when you don't yeah.
But yeah, that's not what we do.
Tom: That sounds, you know about
this much better than I do, but
even the kind of restrained stoic
version sounds very stressful to me.
I can't imagine the stress of
just completely opening up your
heart and saying, I am unprepared
for what's going to happen to
my company four weeks from now.
Yeah, let's just ride the ride.
That sounds.
Potentially extremely
stressful and painful.
So I can see yeah.
And you can you imagine
Paul: being the emperor of Rome
and having to defend your people?
That's that's probably
why this guy needed Yep.
A real strong philosophy.
Tom: Interesting.
So that sounds it's a reminder that
stoicism can also be like only a small.
Protection.
Yeah.
It's not some magic catchall, oh, now
I feel, this negative thing can't touch
me because I'm mentally prepared for it.
It still hurts.
Yeah.
It's just a little bit
better than it would've been.
Yeah, maybe.
Yeah.
It makes it sound like
some pretty weak soup.
Some weak soup.
Yeah.
Paul: Yeah.
I also know startup founders.
Poop blood.
I think on the spectrum,
yeah, I'm doing okay.
Okay.
Tom: That is some stoic
perspective right there.
Oh, there we go.
Thanks.
Yeah.
Oops.
Paul: Just Okay.
Accidentally did some philosophizing.
Yeah.
Tom: Cool.
Okay.
Shall we start book two and see if.
If Marcus can guide us at all.
Can help us out?
Yeah.
A little bit better.
Okay.
So book one was this sort of gratitude
journal, 17 entries to the different the
people and gods to whom he was thankful.
Book two is entitled On the River Grand
Among the Quai Among, among but like the
previous entry, it is a numbered list.
In this case it's a numbered.
Paragraphs roughly.
It is.
I Okay.
We said this last time, but it seems to
me that Marcus Aurelius basically invented
the listical form that all of his did,
as far as I can tell, he could have just
done away with the numbering on these
paragraphs and let them put an essay.
But it's a clickbait is
Paul: what it is.
Yeah.
He's just, he's a clickbait
Tom: whore a real visionary here.
Okay.
Okay.
So number one, when you wake up
in the morning, tell yourself.
The people I deal with today will be
meddling, yes, ungrateful, arrogant,
dishonest, jealous, and surly.
Yes, they are like this because
they can't tell good from evil.
But I have seen the beauty of good
and the ugliness of evil and have
recognized that the wrong doer has a
nature related to my own, not of the
same blood or birth, but the same mind
and possessing a share of the divine.
And so none of them can hurt me.
No one can implicate me in ug.
Nor can I feel angry at
my relative or hate him.
We were born to work together like
feet, hands, and eyes, like the two
rows of teeth, upper and lower to
obstruct each other is unnatural.
To feel anger at someone
to turn your back on him.
These are obstructions.
Oh
Paul: my goodness.
We're jumping right into greatest hits.
I didn't know if we would get
this line until so much later.
Yeah.
This is a famous line.
Even I know that
Tom: the first line of
this paragraph Oh yeah.
Is the, if you asked.
Encapsulate what I knew
about this text before.
That's what I would've roughly said
this, when you wake up in the morning,
tell yourself that the people I deal
with will be horrible, basically.
Paul: Oh, I it's such a good line.
So to me, I'm curious if this is true for
you, but to me, I really resonate with it.
And I can explain why.
But you resonate
Tom: with it, Tom?
Not really, if I'm being totally honest.
I.
If anything, this is the part that,
about the philosophy that I knew a
little bit about before that has always
seemed totally wrong to me in my heart.
Okay.
I get it.
And I think it's about not getting
your hopes up too much or not counting
on people too much, basically.
Do you have any
Paul: toxic people in your life to
think of the most toxic person that you.
You don't have to name them.
I'm not gonna
Tom: name them.
I guess I don't, that word toxic doesn't
resonate with me a ton, but I think I
have people in my life who are limited or,
Paul: Thomas too stoic for this.
Okay.
Tom: Li Yeah.
Who can't always pull off the thing
that they're trying to pull off.
And I might be, Kind of collateral
damage at times with that.
Sure.
I don't, to me, toxic feels like
a real, a condemnation, but yes.
Paul: So what the part of this
that resonates with me is Yeah.
I'll give the sort of the
more specific example here.
You let's say in a professional
work environment for my
corporate cogs out there.
Yeah.
You have some co.
Who is doing some kind of politics, right?
Okay.
They're politicking,
they're land grabbing.
They're doing this thing where
they're, they're trying to keep you,
they're defending their turf, and
it's not actually business aligned,
and it's really frustrating to you.
You go home you like complain
to your partner or whatever like
that, that exists everywhere.
And essentially what you are, what
Marcus here is saying is they don't.
Good and evil.
They don't know.
They haven't yet seen what happens to
a company in the company's culture.
When people behave this way, they
don't quite understand the full
implications of their actions here.
And the fact that even if they got
promoted, great, you got promoted.
Now your job sucks even more.
Now you have people management issues and
all these other issues like, like they
don't know what's they don't understand.
They're just limited in their ability
to grasp the sort of the reasons.
So they're doing this thing that in
their mind, Reasonable and based on
every, all data they have is reasonable.
And so it's not their fault
and it doesn't impact me.
It doesn't mean that I'm,
that's the second part.
So I love how like focused on
himself he is, he's yeah, and
that's not my fault, basically.
Tom: Yeah.
I see.
That's beautiful.
I think I arrive at a similar kind of
conclusion in my life, but through it
different channel a little bit to me.
They don't know good from evil, but I do
is a very arrogant sounding perspective.
Yeah.
That, that I, these, everyone
around me is a dumb fuck and they
are just blundering around and
exposing us to all kinds of shit.
And that is what he's saying.
Ensemble.
Does he say
Paul: everyone, by the way,
Tom: is that the.
I mean that, that sentence starts with the
people I deal with today will be meddling
Paul: the people I deal.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's, that, that is a lot.
Tom: Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then they are like this because
they can't tell good from evil.
It seems to imply that Okay.
Deal with is a little bit vague.
So he's not necessarily
saying everyone in the world.
I think
Paul: that this is the reason
we, like he is the emperor.
Yeah.
So he literally, His problem
is the defense of the empire.
Their problem is, upleveling
their station in life.
Yeah.
So there's just misaligned incentives.
Yeah.
Tom: The, I come around to the sort of bit
you're saying at the end about It's a way
of dealing with your anger and frustration
with other people who are, yeah.
Who in theory you are on a team with,
but actually the team doesn't work well
because of the misaligned incentives.
Yeah.
Or whatever else.
But
Paul: the good and evil part
is like a little bit much.
Yeah.
Tom: That feels like that to me
is the wrong reason to do it.
I think it, there's more, I'm more
comfortable in a space of just like
people too and in my heart, the
thing I always want to do is try to
understand them and where they're
coming from and figure out how we can
work together and that kind of thing.
That
Paul: sounds what you're saying.
Sounds.
More correct, but maybe less
useful on a battlefield.
Yes.
Tom: I think that's probably true.
Yeah.
And maybe even less useful
in a political workspace.
Where you just have to
Paul: Keep grinding like he has to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He has, you get up tomorrow
Tom: and do this again.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He can't just say, okay, people
who have come to my court to ask
for my ruling or whatever, let's
really get to know each other and.
Circle back in six months.
Once we're a better functioning
team and make a decision, then yeah.
Yeah that all makes sense to me.
I guess it's maybe a mark of the privilege
in my life or something that I haven't
really encountered situations where
that was really a necessity and so I
can just be the soft, touchy-feely, Hey,
let's just all be nice to each other.
God.
Yeah, me too.
But this is how.
That is how I respond to this paragraph
is I can say that yeah, this guy is
mean, and maybe he has to be because
he has to make these really hard.
Absolutely, he
Paul: does.
Yeah.
Tom: Decisions does it, does I get a
reaction or I get a sort of sense that
this paragraph excites you a little bit.
This is yes.
Is that fair?
Paul: I love this.
I imagine waking.
Every morning and just repeating
that mantra to yourself.
First of all I do think there's a part
of me that's being slightly facetious.
Yeah.
I think it is.
Of course it's extreme.
Yeah.
But I like it because I can relate to
some of it, and then I also like it
because I just, it opens up a world
into how shitty Marcus's life is.
Tom: That's my reaction to it too.
And I guess I.
Yeah, it's similar, which is the, it
seems like his life sucks, is horrible.
Yeah.
To me, that doesn't make me laugh.
It makes me feel bad for the guy.
It just he's
Paul: fine.
He's dead.
Yeah.
But, yeah.
Yeah.
Tom: But I could still feel bad
for somebody who's writing about
their life in a book who then died.
Yeah.
Paul: Yeah.
He got to write a book.
At least, he, he,
Tom: yeah.
Paul: I'm sure he got some
enjoyment out of writing this down.
This was probably the best part of his.
Yeah.
This has to be the best part of his day.
Can you imagine even this he hates,
he's then I have to go write my stupid
Tom: journal.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
I think he probably loved it.
I would imagine that this kind of
reflective contemplative time for
him was like the best part, the
only part of his day that he liked.
Certainly the just, yeah, the kid
Paul: have another kid with my wife, kid.
Number 17, people stab me in the back.
All right.
Finally, I get some complain.
Tom: None of these
idiots journal can tell.
Good from evil.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I guess I have one other thought
about this, which is that.
Maybe it's important for me to remind
myself that this is a book that Marcus is
writing to himself, because I think maybe
part of my reaction to this paragraph is
that I think this advice is good advice
for Marcus Aurelius, but, and no one else.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think when you wake up in
the morning, everyone remind
yourself that everyone sucks.
Oh, yeah.
Is exactly the wrong advice for him
to be giving to, for instance, the
citizens of his empire who need to
work together, or That's a good point.
Paul: Or whatever else.
And they certainly need to listen to him.
Tom: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And I think in general
the, this is my Dewey eyed.
Yeah.
Romantic heart or whatever, but
mostly the world is short on people
believing in the goodness of others.
And our tendencies are to be selfish and
small minded and scared of each other.
And this is a philosophy that, that tells
you, hey, those impulses that tell peop
tell you that people are liars and bad.
Those are correct, and
you should believe them.
Yeah.
Which to me feels utterly wrong.
Paul: And that's a really good point.
And I actually think that's one of the
reasons why I get so excited reading
meditations early so far, which is.
Most books are pretty much every
other book you read is, was written
to be read like was written.
It was, it's one of those things
where what you say at a dinner party
is different than what you say when
you get home and hang up your hat.
And this is the get home and
hang up your hat narrative.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not to be, I'm gonna get really
political, but you should, you should
get a vaccine, you should vote.
There's, of course you say that in public.
I'm not saying you don't
say that in private.
Yeah.
But there is this, there's an extra layer.
Like your job is to say that
everyone should get a vaccine.
To should get the flu vaccine
and then whether or not you
personally go do it is up to you.
Tom: Yeah.
I see.
Yeah.
Okay.
That helps me understand this
paragraph or, and maybe this text
in general a little bit better.
That part of the interest in this
text is the fascination of how
different the conclusions about how
to live your life privately become
when you're in this particular
station that Marcus really is, and.
At odds they seem with what you would
expect someone to publicly, yeah.
Espouse.
So it's about how insane warping
and twisting the effect of power has
become on Marcus Aurelius's life.
That these are the correct conclusions
for him, and yet they're totally
at odds on some level with stuff
that we would all intuitively.
Think or expect people to
Paul: say publicly.
Yeah.
Like we, we plebes dug up this journal
of his and now we're, we all read it.
He's what are you guys doing?
Yeah.
Like he's turning around in his grave
like, you can't do, you can't think
Tom: this way.
Let's really.
That's my fear is that a bunch of us.
Idiots who can't tell good from evil.
Read the text.
And then we're like,
aha, I'm Marcus Aurelius.
That's right.
And it's totally, we just lose
all the context of That's right.
No, I'm writing this down specifically.
Cause in the specific situation of
my life, yeah, this was correct,
but not, I think I can tell.
Paul: Good from evil, Tom.
Yeah.
We You don't think
Tom: you can tell Good from you?
Yes.
The book is written in such a way that.
It's, we all put ourselves in
the shoes of Marcus Aureus, and I
assume everyone else is an idiot.
I for sure can.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
Number two, whatever this is that
I am, it is flesh and a little
spirit and an intelligence.
Throw away your books.
Stop letting yourself be distracted.
That is not.
Instead as if you were dying right
now, despise your flesh, a mess
of blood, pieces of bone, a woven
tangle of nerves, veins, arteries.
Consider what the spirit is, air, and
never the same air, but vomited out
and gulped in again every instant.
Finally, the intelligence.
Think of it this way.
You are an old.
Stop allowing your mind to be a
slave, to be jerked about by selfish
impulses, to kick against fate and the
present and to mistrust the future.
Paul: Holy cow.
He must have had a bad day.
Or what, how do you interpret this?
Tom: I think this is, it's an
extension of the same thing of Don.
Don't trust anything like
this body you have, you're not
gonna have it forever quit.
If you love your body, then you're
going to lose it later and or
you're gonna rely on it if you,
I see, rely on your intelligence.
That sucks too, because
that will go as well.
It's all just temporary figments,
so keep them all at a distance
because they're all gonna betray you.
Eventually
Paul: that last bit about your
intelligence betraying you.
That's very like 21st century pH
psychology stuff where like we, we
are now coming around to realizing
just how screwed up our conscious
mind is and how it just doesn't, like
the thoughts we have are completely.
They're just like, not the, not logically
the thoughts that you would want to have.
You can't control the thoughts you have.
Yep.
So that's, wow.
He's really like ahead of himself
Tom: here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's certainly recognizing that.
The mind is a servant of its
subconscious, or its impulses or yeah.
Or whatever.
This is by contrast to
bullet point number one.
This seems like very
hard advice to follow.
No, like bullet point number one
is hard enough for me to follow.
Yeah.
Where I wake up in the morning
and say, don't trust anyone.
N number two, hate your body and
your spirit and your intelligence.
Throw away your books.
Don't rely on any of it.
Seems like I, I'm not quite sure that's
Paul: true.
It seems like a recipe to have a
Tom: shitty life.
How?
Yeah.
I'm not sure how to integrate this
into my day-to-day experience.
Paul: How, okay, so
you gotta integrate it.
Tom, what are you gonna do?
Tom: I think, okay, so the probably
lame 21st century version of it is to.
Express gratitude for the
things that you do have for now.
When he says you are an old man already.
Sure.
So in other words, your youthfulness,
whatever luck you have with your body
and your intelligence is all a temporary
gift that has been bestowed upon you.
And so say for that, but don't
expect it to last forever.
Yeah, that, that's I guess, the closest
I could come, that is obviously a
very like teddy bear approach to
what he's saying, which is that
you're a bag of blood and skin and
a much more sort of violent vision.
But I think that's as close as I can get.
That
Paul: makes sense.
I have nothing clever.
So let's move on.
Okay.
Tom: Three.
What is Divine is full of providence.
Even chance is not divorced from.
And the in from the, in weaving
and unfolding of things governed by
providence, everything proceeds from it.
And then there is necessity
and the needs of the whole
world of which you are a part.
Whatever the nature of the whole does
and whatever serves to maintain it
is good for every part of nature.
The world is maintained by change in the
elements and in the things they compose.
That should be enough
for you treated as an a.
Discard your thirst for books so that
you won't die in bitterness, but in
cheerfulness and truth, grateful to
the gods from the bottom of your heart.
What's his ett against?
Books.
Yeah, that's interesting.
What do you have against books?
I've, I'm also struck by, he's
now in three bullet points, twice
said to throw away all your books.
What's wrong with books?
I think that he is saying here
he's using books to represent like
a desire to escape our oh, bodies
and our sort of mortal whatever.
And he's saying in this bullet point
that we are all just cogs in this
big com complex, ever changing world.
I see.
And that books are about trying to analyze
and escape, remove our ourselves from, I
Paul: guess the Roman world was really
boring, so books were like video games.
There.
You could just lock yourself in
your mom's basement and just read
Tom: books.
It's a way to, and just, it's a
way to retreat from the world.
Especially maybe for Marcus
specifically, who we think is
obviously a well-read guy and probably.
Paul: Really just wants to go to his
Tom: mom's basement and read
books and read a bunch of books.
But I think there's that that they
were a form of entertainment, but
also that they represented a form of
analytical thought about the world.
Sure.
Paul: Sure.
So don't, don't get too comfortable
thinking the world is logical.
Yeah.
And you can
Tom: explain it.
And I, there was this thing that he
kept repeating that we discussed in
the last episode, in the first book.
He kept talking about, I forget
exactly the language he is, but
something about living alongside
nature or living in in accordance.
In accordance too.
Yeah.
I think that is what is going on here
too, that books and philosophizing
are about distancing hu humans
from nature or whatever, and he's
saying that's the wrong impulse.
Sure That just be grateful that the gods
let you be a part of this crazy machine.
Paul: He's a wet towel, isn't.
Yeah, you a, yeah, definitely.
It's not that bad to just enjoy
a good book every once in a
while and he's just, he just.
Just there's a world in which he
just, okay, his day isn't that great.
He does his nine to five and then
he goes, after his shift ends,
you can go read a nice book.
Tom: But no.
Yeah, that is clearly not
the guy we are dealing with.
No, Marcus, he is far, hundred
thousand times Too intense for that.
He, it all has to throw it out.
It all has to work.
Throw out all the books together.
It all has to.
Yeah.
Cohere philosophically.
And that means, yeah, do away with
your books and live in accordance.
Of nature.
Yeah.
Again, this one is, on some level,
this one appeals to me more, I
think, than the previous one.
About just yes,
Paul: Dr.
Tom,
Tom: Be grateful that you are, you get to
experience the world is like a, I think
that underpins a lot of religious ideas
too, that like life is a gift and that
there's a lot of stuff outside of your
control, but look at this amazing world
you get to live in for a little while.
Sure.
That's pretty great.
Yeah.
Throw
Paul: out your books so that you can.
World.
Tom: Yeah.
Yeah.
Again, I think books are representing
some sort of trying to become immortal
or be like, become all-knowing quit it.
Just be a human being.
Very doist.
Yeah, he is.
I think I agree with your point
though, that he's coming across as
a more negative feeling guy that
this chapter, it just sounds boring.
This chapter has more
intense, negative energy.
I just kinda wanna shake him
Paul: a little bit and
be like, come on dude.
Go and go Read a book.
Go, knock yourself out.
Read a book.
Yeah.
Tom: There's so much gratitude
in the previous chapter.
Yeah.
Obviously.
But this one feels.
Very little gratitude.
Yeah.
Going on here.
Maybe we needed that first chapter
to make the rest of this Yeah.
Go
Paul: down a little bit.
Yeah.
This goes back to the,
this is the counterweight.
We're reading the counterweight
and we don't know what's on
the other side of the scale.
Yeah.
Tom: Yeah.
I think that is a probably going
to be a continuing theme here.
So yeah, let's try to give Marcus Aurelius
a little grace and benefit of the doubt.
Yeah.
Here number.
Remember how long you've been putting
this off, how many extensions the
gods gave you and you didn't use them.
At some point, you have to recognize
what world it is that you belong
to, what power rules it, and from
what source you spring that there is
a limit to this time assigned you.
And if you don't use it to free yourself,
it will be gone and will never return.
Free yourself.
Free yourself.
Yeah.
I have the, what
Paul: is he?
A monk?
I guess he.
Nirvana, what?
What are we talking about here?
Tom: I really am baffled
by that last clause.
I don't know what he
means by free himself,
Paul: because free himself from the books.
It's still about books or the analysis
or whatever, or the rationalization.
Okay.
But
Tom: I would think that even.
Let's say you do put those things
away, Uhhuh, it's still true that
you've only been granted a certain
period of time from the Gods.
And it's gonna go away, and it will be
gone and never return even if you do that.
I'm not sure what he's, what he means
by, can you repeat that last line then?
Yeah.
There is a limit to the time assigned you,
and if you don't use it to free yourself,
it will be gone and never return.
It seems to be true regardless.
So he believes
Paul: in eternal life if he can just free
Tom: himself.
Yeah.
Boy, that this does feel different to
me from even the previous bullet points.
Yeah.
E everything up to that last sentence
was making total sense to me about
you are granted temporary time here
and so you know, factor that in.
Remember that, that you are essentially
un borrowed time all the time.
Yeah.
Paul: So I can't, so this stuff
does it, does these things
sound like truisms to me?
I, I think it's very common
to hear oh, think about your
mortality and how you're gonna die.
Yeah.
Treat every day as if it was
treat every day is a blessing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you actually
Tom: do that, Tom?
No.
I think wake up every morning and say,
oh, today is my last day on our, people
give that as advice about living in
the present or mindful or whatever.
But no, I, practically
speaking, of course not.
No one.
Let's try it this week.
I don't.
Okay.
I do.
I have an instinct to, on a broader time
scale, look at my life and say, down the
road, when I look back on this period
of my life, what will I think about it?
Which is a sort of a version
of the same instinct.
And I think there's a tendency in,
maybe, especially in modern human
life, to be very focused on what's
gonna happen next and whatever thing
that you're working towards, if it's a
promotion at work or the next chapter
of your life or whatever, and that.
Dangerous.
It leads to that end of the
feeling life of, oh, I chased
these things my whole life.
And even though I got them,
they never made me happy.
It's good I think to sit back and
reflect and say, Hey, you know what?
Things are pretty good.
I don't have everything, but
periodically checking in and
saying, Hey, how are things?
Are they pretty good or not so much.
That's my closest version of.
Thing.
I guess I, I definitely don't do it
every day in a day to day kind of way.
Cause that seems just totally, if
you are really gonna live every day
as if it was your last, basically
Paul: when I do this, you go to work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's true.
Yeah.
You wouldn't go to work
that would end quickly.
Yeah.
That's right.
So I think, I do many versions of
this where I give pasta my wife like
a big hug, or I like text my mom.
You're right.
If it was actually my last day on
Earth, I would do not go to work and
I would hug them for 10 times as long.
Tom: Yeah.
Yeah.
And empty your bank account.
Empty.
Yeah, exactly.
Paul: Yeah.
Eat some ice cream.
Yeah.
But I don't,
Tom: it's not practical.
Yeah.
That's true.
But I do.
Okay.
But I think you've identified
something there that you can treat
the important people in your.
As if that were true on a
day-to-day basis, even if you
don't do all the other stuff.
Yeah.
And that is probably a good,
healthy reminder of not taking the
people in your life for granted.
Yeah.
Paul: I feel like when I'm doing
that, they don't know why, they don't
know why I'm hugging them so hard.
But I'm just like, it's like
a big passionate hug cuz I.
Man,
Tom: how did they, we
Paul: could be dead tomorrow and
we would've lived a good life.
I'm pretty happy with where we're at.
Tom: How did they respond?
I can also imagine being scared if your
husband is all of sudden that's giving
you a really big hug oh, is he gonna
go do something horrible or something?
Or has he just, Bravo Bank?
Has he just gotten really bad news
and therefore, No, I don't think, I
Paul: don't tell them what's going on.
Okay.
Interesting.
Keep it to myself.
Okay.
Keep playing my cards close to the chest.
Tom: Okay.
Yeah.
Good to do that with your wife and mom.
Okay.
Okay, number five, concentrate every
minute like a Roman, like a man on
doing what's in front of you with
precise and genuine seriousness.
Tenderly willingly with justice.
And on freeing yourself
from all other distractions.
Yes, you can.
If you do everything as if it were
the last thing you were doing in
your life, and stop being aimless.
Stop letting your emotions
override what your mind tells you.
Stop being hypocritical,
self-centered, irritable.
You see how few things you have to do
to live a satisfying and reverend life.
If you can manage this, that's
all even the gods can ask of you.
Paul: Okay, Marcus is really not
there's a couple things to unpack
here, but I'll start with the fact that
Marcus is not big on giving yourself
permission, which I believe is the,
like psychology kind of phrasing.
If you have a therapist, they'll
talk a lot about yeah, oh, you should
give yourself permission to, you are
just human and you did your best.
Like he, he's no.
If you don't control and do all these
things correctly, if you don't act like a.
Then then that's on you and Yeah.
Which is interesting
cuz the things you yeah.
He's listing are, yeah.
It's hard to always be that.
Yeah.
But, okay.
That was
Tom: one thought.
I'll just react to that quickly
to say that those last two
sentences I think you're right.
He is saying, he has very high
expectations of how people's,
like self-regulation of
their behavior or whatever.
Yeah.
But then he says, you see how
few things you have to do to live
a satisfying, irreverent life.
If you can manage this, that's
all even the gods can ask of you.
That feels a little bit how few things.
Yeah.
I see.
He's now making the point that is
this easy actually it's just this
one thing, which is focusing on
the thing that's in front of you.
That makes it feel even worse.
Paul: He's yes.
Yeah, he's agree.
Digging himself an even deeper yes.
Tom: Hole with that one.
It makes it, yeah, clear
just how unpleasant it would
be to be around this guy.
Yeah.
All the time.
Because can you imagine?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Either you don't live this way and he
thinks you're a total piece of shit.
Paul: No.
He just thinks you don't understand.
And good.
But yeah.
Fair enough.
Yeah.
Total piece of shit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom: Or maybe you can, and
you're as miserable as he is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But the last sentence too is
he's making the point that.
He says, if you could manage this,
that's all even the gods can ask of you.
Which does feel like actually
an acknowledgement in
some level that it's hard.
That yeah.
So he's saying it's easy and
it's hard at the same time.
Yeah.
Which seems I think correct.
And kind of part of the tension at
the core of this philosophy a little
Paul: bit.
Yeah, that's true.
The other funny thing that
I noticed in that stanza.
So he's yeah, you should
behave like a man.
Yeah.
Man box.
Which we all growing up in our
generation have this like a little
bit of an allergic reaction to,
the phrase like a man be a man.
That was our parents' generation.
Yeah.
But then the way he defines being a
man, the first word he uses is tender.
Tom: Yeah, it's true.
Which is awesome.
Tenderly willingly with justice.
Yeah.
Paul: Tender.
Yeah.
Be a man.
Be
Tom: tender.
Yeah.
I interpret.
Yeah.
I, that's a, that's an interesting point.
I interpret that as he's
drawing a distinction here.
Not between men and women uhhuh, but
between men and beasts, basically.
Yeah.
Be a Rome man.
Yeah.
Be a human with a heart that,
that cares about these things.
Paul: Sure.
Which is cool because I think tism often
gets aligned with hyper masculinity.
Maybe that's a misinterpretation.
Maybe that's a post fact
like application of the man
Tom: box.
Yes, definitely.
I think there is truth to that for sure.
And I think that was true
in the in book one as well.
A lot of his, almost everyone he thanked
were men, but a lot of them were.
He was thanking them for things like
teaching him tenderness, or yeah.
How to deal with, how to treat
your loved ones in a way that they
deserve and that kind of thing.
Yeah.
So yes, I think there is, I think
you're right that there's a modern.
It's not bastardized exactly, but
somehow this has translated into
a more a gendered philosophy that
it maybe wasn't as much Yeah.
At the outset.
Paul: It's also interesting that he,
the Emperor Rome is using, just being
a citizen of his vast empire, being a
Roman as the epitome of how one should.
Which is like a huge compliment
to his people right after he
says that they're all dumb fucks.
They're all dumb
Tom: fucks and evil.
Yeah.
It also sounds, a cynical read is
it's sort of propaganda, right?
But he is a private journal.
It's true.
Yeah.
No, I think it's clear that he
has Some reverence for Yeah, a
high concept of what a Rome Yeah.
He needs to, if he didn't, yeah, he
probably wouldn't be very good at his job.
Paul: But that's nice.
I would wanna know that like the CEO
of Disney is today I should behave
like a real Disney, good imagineer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, that's, yeah.
Like he believes so thoroughly
in his own propaganda that he
writes it in his private journal.
Tom: Yeah.
That's fantastic.
That's true.
Yeah.
I do, I suspect there's some sort
of historical context That's true.
Being lost on That's true.
Like a Roman, because he also That's true.
I think even in the first chapter, he also
talks about he makes some distinctions
between li living like a Roman and
living like a Greek possibly that I
think are maybe not totally translating.
Oh, okay.
Fair enough.
For us.
Or like a barbarian or something.
But yeah I agree that concentrate
every minute, like a Roman is a
nice thing to hear the and person
Emper of Roman say to himself.
Yeah exactly.
Privately, yeah.
Yeah.
Number six, yes.
Keep on degrading yourself but.
Soon your chance at Dignity will be gone.
Everyone gets one life.
Yours is almost used up.
And instead of treating yourself with
respect, you have entrusted your own
happiness to the souls of others.
Wow.
I think that first, okay,
so the first sentence there.
Yes.
Keep on degrading yourself soul.
It's comma soul at the end there.
Yeah.
I think that doesn't, that's something.
Is a little hard to parse with modern
English, but he's actually just saying
that our souls degrade over the course of
our life and there's nothing we, oh, okay.
He's not saying he's not encouraging.
He's not, it's not an
imperative instruction.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Soul degrade thyself.
Yeah.
It's you.
Yes.
I know you are degrading yourself.
Yeah.
Paul: Okay.
This one makes
Tom: sense.
Soon your chance at Dignity will be gone.
That's
Paul: wait.
It's this whole free yourself thing.
It's if you behave well, then that's
dignity and so don't miss your chance.
Tom: Yeah, I guess I think what I react
to that is because my understanding
of this philosophy is very sort of
process oriented, that it's about.
Correctly approaching the things that
you are handed in life, that the idea
that you have a chance at dignity
in all this is implies that it's
often the future to me seems strange
because it seems to me like dignity
is something you have continuously.
Do this process of living stoically,
but this frames it as there's a
goal at the end, which is dignity.
Paul: No, Marcus is not big.
Loving oneself.
Just because like he has
very conditional love for
Tom: himself.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But this feels like even when he's
doing well, he still doesn't feel
like he's even earned dignity.
Yeah.
The dignity is still just a future
goal, which seems Yeah, it's
a just insanely harsh recipe.
Recipe for.
Paul: Yeah, for a really,
Tom: I, yeah, it doesn't, bright towel.
Yeah.
It doesn't feel denying
himself the feeling of dignity.
Feels like a bit over the top to me.
I guess it's, he could look at his
life and say, okay, if I adhere to
this philosophy, I will be dignified,
even if I'm not the other Yeah.
Stuff I'd like to be,
Paul: He just ordered a march.
Into the quasi territory and lost,
and some commanders lost their lives
or whatever, and that's his fault.
And maybe there's like this
overhanging guilt all the time.
He.
I don't know, like just,
maybe that's what's going on.
Maybe that's what this
counterweight is for.
Tom: Yeah.
Okay.
So it's self-flagellation a little bit.
He's saying.
Yeah.
Okay.
Like he you're blowing
it right now, Marcus.
You're blowing it, Marcus.
But, okay.
Good romance by the way.
Lives, yeah.
Your window for redeeming yourself is
closing fast, so get your shit together.
Yeah.
I think that's probably right.
Seven.
Do external things distract
you, then make time for yourself
to learn something worthwhile.
Stop letting yourself be pulled in all
directions, but make sure you guard
against the other kind of confusion.
People who labor all their lives but
have no purpose to direct every thought
and impulse toward are wasting their
time even when they're hard at work.
Paul: Another hard thing to follow,
Tom: very hard to follow.
This one sounds.
If you put this on like a Scientology
brochure, I would believe it.
Basically it's leaving with the question,
do external things distract you?
Sounds Yeah.
It's like a bad advertisement.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're go, they're trying to,
it's like a billboard ad they're
trying to suck you into Yeah.
Yeah, get your personality tested
or whatever, and as a way of Yes.
Selling you some horrible,
Paul: yeah.
Exactly.
Everyone's oh, that's
me.
Tom: Yes.
Exactly.
Paul: Yeah.
Yeah.
That why is he, that's necessarily a
weird way to phrase a personal journal.
Tom: Yes, I agree.
That is part of the who's you, the
confounding mystery of this book
is who are, who is talking to whom.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Is it confusing and seems
inconsistent potentially.
But I think it's what he's doing is he's
writing a sort of dialogue with himself.
Yeah, exactly.
So he's saying self are
external things distracting you?
And he says, yes, of course
they're, which is why I'm.
So what should I do?
Make time to learn something
worthwhile and stop letting yourself
be pulled in all directions.
This bit about learn something
worthwhile, feels very.
At odds with throw away all your books.
Paul: Yeah.
It, it does.
Yeah, that's true.
Tom: What do you think he means
by learn something worthwhile?
Paul: Learn something worthwhile.
Yeah.
It's such a weird it does
sound go read a book.
What do you think
Tom: it def I have that
reaction as well, maybe.
Other explanation I could come up
with is the something worthwhile he's
learning is this philosophy basically.
Yeah.
And yeah, learn how to focus
your energy and just quit being
pulled in every direction and
distracted by external things.
Yeah.
The bit he makes, the point he makes
about People who labor all their
lives but have no purpose to direct
every thought and impulse toward are
wasting their time, even when hard at
work seems he's got someone in mind.
Oh, you think so?
What were you gonna say?
My reaction is that feels like
a very modern question too.
I would say.
It's a criticism of like liberal
society from more conservative factions
that like secular liberal society is
essentially, this has purpose all work
purpose, all work towards no purpose.
Which phrased correctly.
I have some tendency to, some inclination
to agree with, but not wholeheartedly.
Yeah.
But yes, this is a way in which he's,
he strikes me as a modern conservative.
Yeah.
Paul: He's like a, he's like
the old grandpa telling kids
to stay off his yard and, yeah.
Tom: Yeah.
And that if every decision you make in
your life isn't guided by some sort of
underlying philosophy then you're just
an idiot who's just like bumping around.
I mostly respond to this negatively.
I think he's being an asshole and people
who think this way mostly are yeah.
It's weirdly judgmental.
Exactly.
Yeah.
They're being very judgmental.
And they also tend to be people who have
arrived at some philosophy in their life
that they think is absolutely correct.
And they lose a sort of
reflective tendency of wait
a minute, am I being a dick?
Yeah.
So you this puts some distance
between me and Marcus.
I'm, I Oh yeah.
I'm not really on the scene.
Less of a fan of Marky.
I, he already feels like not a guy I
want to hang out with in particular.
Paul: Certainly not a guy I
want to hang out with, but maybe
the guy, I want to be the em.
Tom: Yeah.
I, yes, that I don't disagree
with necessarily, but this,
I guess just reinforces Yeah.
That I think he's probably a jerk.
Paul: Yeah that's fair.
The other interesting thing to note is
I guess if I was keeping this journal,
I would write just very specific things
about I shouldn't have ordered that
March and I should have I shouldn't
have had that decree where all the
soldiers needed to wear sandals because
then we had all these other is issues.
Like I would've been way more specific.
And he's keeping it all
at such a high level.
Is it why does he, or are these
like, selected parts of a journal?
We'll never know.
We're not gonna actually
fact check this, but Yeah.
I wonder why that is.
Tom: Yeah.
That's a, that's an interesting question.
Yeah.
Why does he choose to generalize.
So much.
One way of looking at it is that is like
what the act of reflection for him is.
It's it's he, this isn't a diary.
It's not just, here's what I did wrong.
It's like extracting lessons from
the things that have gone on.
Which, and those are
necessarily somewhat abstract.
Yeah.
Because he, that's what
makes them good lessons.
But yes, it is interesting how much,
for instance, the text, the name of this
book is on the River, on the Riverland.
We haven't heard anything about
no idea what any of that means.
It seems to have absolutely nothing
to do as far as we can tell.
Yeah.
Other, I mean we, I guess we have
a vague sense that these lessons
were learned there fighting
Paul: some German barbarians.
Yeah.
Tom: But what that has to do with
what we're getting here is just, it's
Paul: just, I was here when I wrote
this very generic philosophical text.
Tom: A total mystery.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I think we're gonna
wrap it up there today.
Mar Marcus has a lot to say and we
have a lot to say, maybe more than we
expected about what Marcus has to say.
Yeah.
So we are going to break this book
into some pieces, I think, which
is great because he has actually
written in such a way that it is very
easy to break things into pieces.
Yeah.
We will just pick up on number eight.
Yeah.
When.
Return with the second part
of meditation's book two.
Anything you wanna add or reflect on
with this, the first seven bullet points
of book two before we wrap up here?
I love it.
I
Paul: you're so excited.
I'm so excited by him and I just really
I'm really enjoying this podcast.
Thank you,
Tom: Tom.
Me too.
Yeah I'm hoping I'm getting the.
That I may be expected to have
originally, which is he's more
of a wet towel than this one.
I was really charmed by his gratitude.
Yeah.
In the first chapter.
And now maybe things aren't going
as well in his life that we can't
see, but this seems more like the
dower guy I thought he was going to
Paul: be.
Yeah.
No I'm still on Team Marcus.
I think he's a good bloke, so I,
that can be a tension between us.
Tom I think there's
Tom: plenty of tension for us to keep
exploring both the sort of internal
tension of this philosophy and our own
reactions to To, to Marcus's writing here.
Yeah, so I think we'll do some more
exploring of that in part two of book two.
Next time.
Bye-bye bye.