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Inside the FBI highlights news, cases, and people from around the Bureau—in audio form. For more information, visit fbi.gov.
[The episode opens with a dramatic musical track, driven by strings.]
Narrator: Counterintelligence isn’t just about whispered conversations and spies in the shadows.
It's protecting government secrets and intellectual property from theft. It’s guarding our economy and critical infrastructure against potential sabotage. It’s protecting our nation’s democracy and right to freedom of speech.
And counterintelligence threats don’t just play out in black and white on silver screens.
They arise in real time, online and offline, in our communities and workplaces, and on the platforms we use on computers and phones.
On this episode of our podcast, we’ll discuss counterintelligence, what it means to the FBI, and the types of hostile foreign intelligence activity we work to combat. This is Inside the FBI.
[The Inside the FBI jingle begins. It’s a bright and driving track.]
***
[An inquisitive-feeling musical track, led by plucked strings, begins. It repeats, in whole or in part, through the end of the episode.]
Narrator: First thing's first: What's intelligence?
Joshua Obstfeld: Intelligence is really just information that somebody needs in order to make a decision.
Narrator: That’s Joshua Obstfeld, the FBI Counterintelligence and Espionage Division’s senior executive for external engagement. His division combats other countries’ efforts to acquire sensitive intelligence information on U.S. soil—whether that information lives in the private or public sector.
As Obstfeld explains it, to make sense of intelligence, it helps to think of a baseball game.
Obstfeld: The hitter is generally at a disadvantage because they don't know what pitch the pitcher is going to throw.
Now, some teams have elected to do something sort of sneaky and against the rules, which is to steal signs, right? So, this is when they break the rules, and maybe they have somebody in the outfield who's got some kind of watching equipment, and they're able to see the signs that the catcher is displaying to the pitcher that tells the pitcher what pitch to throw.
With that information, the hitter can now make a much more informed decision about whether or not they want to swing. That shifts the advantage to the hitter—who is the decision-maker we're talking about here.
Narrator: Counterintelligence measures give the edge back to the pitcher.
At its core, the term “counterintelligence” refers to any attempt to disrupt or prevent the theft or exploitation of critical information.
In most cases, hostile foreign governments—or bad actors working on their behalf—devise ways to steal or otherwise acquire these secrets. And so, this is where the Counterintelligence and Espionage Division comes in.
Intelligence collection accounts for most of the hostile foreign intelligence activity the division encounters.
Obstfeld: Classic intelligence collection really focuses on government secrets. What are the plans and intentions of the foreign government? They also will try to collect information on classified defense programs, like weapons development programs.
We're talking about information that is held within the government, so that makes it easier to protect, in a way, because it's within government control.
That said, historically speaking, a lot of innovation has always happened outside of the government, especially in capitalist societies—societies we've been living in for the last several hundred years. And that then makes the private sector and, in some cases, academia (where research takes place) targets as well—especially when it comes to new and emerging technologies that are going to have some kind of impact on the economy and national security.
Now, that trend has accelerated, because they are doing the bleeding, cutting-edge research and development of these technologies. And these technologies, as they have grown more and more powerful, have become even more important to protect.
***
Narrator: A second type of hostile intelligence activity that Bureau works to combat is sabotage.
Obstfeld: We're very concerned that a foreign intelligence service might seek to do things that disrupt our critical infrastructure. And we are trying to prevent that from happening.
Narrator: The FBI works to combat the threat of sabotage by partnering with critical infrastructure entities and other U.S. government agencies, conducting extensive outreach across the country, and working to proactively identify potential bad actors and their methodologies.
We also combat sabotage by safeguarding the U.S. supply chain from foreign government interference. This is because legitimate companies with real products can still be associated with hostile countries...
Obstfeld: ...and, because of that, they're kind of beholden to that country. They kind of have to do what that country wants them to do. So, we're worried that that country will force them to hand over the keys to our critical infrastructure to that hostile actor, to the detriment of our country.
***
Narrator: A third kind of intelligence activity the FBI works to counter is known as asymmetric activity. This term refers to efforts by foreign intelligence actors based in one country to manipulate a target located in another country.
Bad actors usually use deception to exert this kind of control.
Obstfeld: We have called this influence in the past—sort of deceptive, coercive influence. And, sometimes, that really does then shift into a very coercive situation that falls into the bucket that we describe as transnational repression.
This is when countries reach across borders into a foreign country in order to target people that are basically engaged in activities that they don't like.
Narrator: Transnational repression (TNR) can victimize members of foreign diasporas and their friends and loved ones, U.S. lawmakers who hostile nation-states want to control, or even members of the general public who these foreign governments consider dissenters.
TNR actors can either try to exert this influence in subtle ways, like assuming a fake identity and trying to convince a target to take—or not take—a certain action. Or, they can do it in a more direct, aggressive manner.
Obtsfeld: Sometimes, it's more coercive, where they start to intimidate people, threaten their family, threaten their own safety and security, even threaten lethal action, and sometimes even take lethal action.
Narrator: You can listen to our archival episode of Inside the FBI about transnational repression to learn more about this particular counterintelligence threat.
***
Narrator: The FBI counters the intelligence threats we just discussed through a combination of expertise, strategic partnerships, and proactive outreach.
And as the lead U.S. government agency for domestic counterintelligence investigations, the Bureau brings an extensive range of authorities to the table.
The Bureau’s commitment to collaboration starts at home, with counterintelligence personnel collaborating across divisions and areas of subject matter expertise to leverage the full strength of the FBI in the fight against hostile foreign intelligence activity.
But in situations where we lack control or impact, or where the investigative actions we can take are limited, that dedication to partnership goes beyond the Bureau.
The FBI’s National Counterintelligence Task Force, a Headquarters-level organization, combines the vast authorities and capabilities of the U.S. Intelligence Community, federal law enforcement, and other government agencies to bridge these gaps.
This national-level task force creates a whole-of-government approach to counterintelligence, using experts from the various U.S. government agencies with a stake in protecting our nation’s secrets—whether from an investigative, regulatory, or other type of perspective. It also helps the FBI ensure interagency efforts align with the Bureau’s overall counterintelligence strategy, and aids U.S. government agencies in creating policies than can help private companies guard against intelligence threats.
Likewise, each of the FBI’s 56 field offices has its own local-level counterintelligence task force. These teams aim to build strategic bonds between the Bureau, the private sector, and community organizations that can be proactively leveraged in the fight to protect our nation’s secrets.
Obstfeld: We want to prevent bad things from happening. We do not want to come in after the fact.
Narrator: The FBI also works to protect American companies’ intellectual property—and, ultimately, our nation’s economy—by partnering with private sector companies to help them become more resilient to intelligence threats through education, threat awareness, and response planning.
***
Obstfeld: If you're hearing this podcast and you think that, “Based on this, I should have a relationship with the FBI,” please reach out to us.
Narrator: You can start that conversation today by visiting fbi.gov/fieldoffices, finding your nearest field office, and giving them a call.
But, if you have specific information about a potential intelligence threat—whether it involves government secrets, private sector intellectual property, hostile foreign influence, or critical infrastructure—please call 1-800-CALL-FBI (that’s 1-800-225-5324) or visit tips.fbi.gov to submit a tip.
You can also report suspected internet crime to the FBI’s Internet Crime Complaint Center by visiting ic3.gov. That’s the letter I, the letter C, and the number three dot gov.
Obstfeld: I want to assure people that if you do want to talk to us, we will do our utmost to protect your identity.
***
Narrator: You can visit fbi.gov/counterintelligence to learn more about the FBI Counterintelligence and Espionage Division’s efforts to protect our nation’s secrets and educate the public about intelligence threats. There, you can also access relevant resources and read about recent operational successes.
***
Narrator: This has been another production of Inside the FBI.
You can follow us on your favorite podcast player, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. You can also listen to our show via the myFBI Dashboard app. Learn more at fbi.gov/dashboardapp.
To subscribe to email alerts to learn more about new episodes, visit fbi.gov/podcasts.
On behalf of the FBI's Office of Public Affairs, thanks for tuning in.
[The musical track gets louder before fading out.]