Jam Sessions

Join Brian Casel and I as we talk about building and growing products, like Clarityflow (https://clarityflow.com) and managing clients while building a practice and juggling projects on the side.

Follow/subscribe:
https://bsky.app/profile/briancasel.com
https://x.com/CasJam
https://www.youtube.com/@briancasel

Projects:
https://instrumental.dev
https://onemonth.app
https://tailormadeui.com

If you like this conversation, you can watch future live episodes on Twitter/X and on YouTube. Follow or subscribe to get notified when the next episode goes live, and please comment and ask questions that we can address during the show.

You can find all the podcast episodes and videos on jamsessions.fm.

Creators & Guests

Host
Ryan Hefner — oss/acc
Having fun, building stuff. Currently building: https://www.starterpacks.net
Guest
Brian Casel
Building products with Ruby on Rails.Co-host 🎙️ bootstrappedweb.comSaaS MVPs as a service 👉 onemonth.appRails UI components 👉 instrumental.devFounder 👉 clarityflow.com

What is Jam Sessions?

Where people get together and jam!

Ryan:

Alright. Cool. So welcome to Jam Sessions. This is the 2nd episode. Today, I'm joined with Brian Casel, who, runs Clarity Flow, and he is also now dipping a toe into the consulting agency world, spinning up instrumental dev.

Ryan:

And, today, we're just gonna jam on what you're working on. You know, I think, you know, it seems like over the year over the last year or so, it seems like you've been kind of thrashing around trying to figure out, like, what the next move is and exploring a lot of different projects and products and stuff. And I feel like I've been doing some similar stuff and Yeah. Be good just to kinda, like, compare notes. You know?

Brian:

For sure, man. Yeah. I've been, I I think I just found your stuff about, like, sometime in the last year. Like, you're, you know, you're one of the few people doing, like, a solo podcast, talking products, talking about what what you're working on.

Ryan:

Oh, yeah. And I totally didn't even bring up Ripple. The fact that you launched Ripple, it's in, like, a private podcasting, apps too. So I'm so we'll get into podcasting as well.

Brian:

For sure. For sure. That was like a little thing. I don't really know where that's going if if it's going anywhere. But, but it was a fun project to hack on.

Brian:

I'm I'm still using it from time to time to post, like, private podcast.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Brian:

But, but, yeah, it's been it it has been a a year of, like, thrashing and and and just trying a lot of stuff and then getting back into the consulting game, which I I did, like, over 10 years ago and then didn't for for probably 10 years and back at it. But now doing it, doing software product service Yeah. Which is sort of new to me. But

Ryan:

Yeah. That's cool. I mean and, also, it seems like you're kind of really clear with, like, the the the product that you're delivering. It's not like you're just gonna go in and pull tickets off the board or do, like, a random marketing site or go in and clean up some maybe some messy infrastructure stuff. You're really focused on kind of, like, greenfield MVPs of, like, new product initiatives.

Ryan:

So, hopefully, you're not you know, I feel like with, with my consulting stuff, a lot of times, I kinda feel like Jan like a janitor a little bit. You know? I kinda have to, like, go in and clean up a lot of stuff, but I feel like with what you're carving out with, like, instrumental dev, that's a little more greenfield than than that, which is cool.

Brian:

Yeah. I mean, it it is, a, because that's what I like to do is is, like, spinning up new products, but also I I feel like that's what I'm, like, most qualified to do. And I I'm I'm probably not as qualified as as you to do to do, like, to, like, go into, like, a a large established organization and and be, like, anything close to, like, a senior level developer. I mean, because I've never done that. I I've done Yeah.

Brian:

Professional design work and front end work and project management and and and like, I I I went independent, like, pretty early on in my career.

Ryan:

Mhmm. Yeah. Was that back in o eight?

Brian:

Yeah. O eight. So before that, I had worked 3 years at an agency, but just doing front end and design and, like, web like marketing websites. And then I didn't even learn full stack app development until 2018. You know?

Brian:

Like 10 years later. During during the early part, it was just all front end design work and and just bootstrapping businesses and product type services and stuff. And then when I learned, like, full stack with with Rails and and just got into, like, building my own stuff. It was always building my own stuff. I had never worked at a company as a software developer.

Brian:

And I I'm not talking about, like, front end, but, like, full stack.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Brian:

And, and I I I still have it. So so that's why I constantly feel like sort of like an imposter. Like, the imposter syndrome is is really like like through the roof when it comes to, like, even like, this is why I'm psyched for this kind of podcast because I I don't go on, like, more technical shows very often. I would like to do more of it, but I don't a lot of times I'm just like, the way the big organizations build stuff and operate, and developer workflows and stuff like that, like, I just haven't really been exposed to that as as much as most developers have. You know?

Brian:

I've I've always been building my own stuff, like, here in my own home office. You know?

Ryan:

Yeah. But I mean, at the same time, you're also kinda doing a little bit of everything. So I feel like that's where, like, what maybe, like, a senior engineer or senior developer would be focused on and, like, in, like, the CIs and stuff, you're they don't have the the broader scope of, like, the product vision and, like, what maybe actually connects or, resonates with with the potential user. You know? So I think Yeah.

Ryan:

Even though you might say you have imposter syndrome, it's only of a small sliver of, like, the whole product vision or really, like, what it takes to bring take something from idea and then create that MVP and and make it a reality. You know?

Brian:

Yeah. For sure. I think, I I also do think that, like, my lack of experience is is also what has helped move really quickly through stuff. Like Yeah. Totally.

Brian:

And and, like, even just in the way that I learned how to build stuff, I I always went about learning as, like, what do I have to learn in order to be able to build and ship a product and give it to customers? And that's really all I care about. You know? And sometimes it's it's, like, frustrating because I don't have the CS degree and the and the years of corporate development experience to know all the workflows and and and all all the ins and outs of, like, scaling a a large application. But Yeah.

Brian:

I've I've just never had had the need to do that. So I I just learned, like, what's the most efficient way. And and I think that's resulted in, like, being able to build and design stuff fast. And then even working I I have a small team that I work with. And the way that I manage them is super efficient.

Brian:

You know? And we we move pretty quickly. That's Yeah.

Ryan:

I mean, I think we could

Brian:

Like, that's what I always try to optimize for when I build. You know? Like, I I don't want to add too much complexity or over optimization because that's going to slow us down. And the most important thing is shipping. It's not the like, yeah, performance and speed and, like, security.

Brian:

Those are important, of course. But, like, at the end of the day, at this level, it's about shipping.

Ryan:

That's that's what the guidelines were. Yeah. Especially early on because, really, what you're trying to do is learn. Right? Like, you need to put something in front of someone and say, like, are they willing to pay for this?

Ryan:

Are they gonna use it? Do they find it helpful? Like, you know Yep. And you can sit there and over engineer and try to work on performance and and do a lot of, like, pre optimization stuff and launch it and to crickets. And so I think focusing on just getting something out, moving fast.

Ryan:

And, I mean, I guess, actually, maybe let's let's step back a little bit. I mean, you're kind of you're juggling a lot of different stuff. You have Clarity Flow, obviously. And then you did say that you, you know, you started getting into full stack. And I correct me if I'm wrong, but, Sunrise KPI, was that the first kind of, like, full stack rails product thing that you had worked on?

Brian:

Yes. That was the first one that I actually shipped. So I I think I spent the year of 2018, like, learning. Mhmm. And, you know, went through a bunch of courses.

Brian:

I worked with a couple of coaches, and and and I did not have AI back then to

Ryan:

Yeah. Totally. Like, speed

Brian:

me along. And, yeah. I did a bunch of, like, practice stuff and learning. And then by the end of that year around December, I spent about a month building, Sunrise KPI. And that was, like, the first thing that that was actually, like, shippable.

Brian:

And had some customers. Eventually, that became, like, just a small project that didn't really go anywhere, and I ended up selling it off to someone and then almost rebuilding it again.

Ryan:

Yeah. I was gonna say, I think you kinda were almost gonna reboot it. Right? But maybe, like, a little bit, broader vision.

Brian:

I thought I was gonna do that this year. It's I I still I still love the idea of it. I I just don't know if or when.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Brian:

But right now, I'm just, like, back in the mode of, like, I've got a long list of product ideas. I don't know which ones are gonna come at with at what point. But right now, it's, I'm kinda focused on instrumental dev.

Ryan:

Yeah. I mean, that's kinda where I'm at too. It's, like, obviously, the client stuff, the consulting stuff comes first because that's what it's at least bringing in money on my side. And then Yeah. What what is your

Brian:

what is your sort of portfolio right now? Because I know you were working on, like, the audio, audio, like, notes app

Ryan:

thing. Yeah.

Brian:

And then you're you're doing some consulting work?

Ryan:

Yeah. I mean, my primary thing is I have a I have kinda, like, 2, 2 main, like, consulting gigs that I do. One's like a retainer, and another one is, you know, log up as many hours as I can during the week and submit, you know, submit it twice a month or whatever. So So that keeps me pretty busy. Obviously, having the the retainer work is the priority and then the hour stuff as I fit in.

Ryan:

And then from there, yeah, I guess I've been kind of I feel like I've been thrashing around trying to figure out, like, what my the next product I wanna work on is. The audio thing, which is called transmits, kinda started out. It's like it's it's a little bit of like a a chicken and egg. So I started building, like, what I'm calling field like, a field recorder as, like, the first almost, like, client of the API. And then but the grander vision, it's almost just like an all audio API similar to, like imagine just like Vimeo for audio being able to, like, easily upload something, get embeds, have, like, one off landing pages that you could send to someone.

Ryan:

Because the whole workflow and it kinda spawns out of, like, the workflow with voice memos where I can record a voice memo on the Apple's app, but then I have to or, like, you know, like, the Apple voice memo or whatever. I know exactly what

Brian:

you're talking about.

Ryan:

But the way I wanna share it is, like, what? I have to, like, send it to Dropbox? But, like, I Yeah. Can't use Dropbox anymore because it doesn't sync with my machine. But, you know, it's just like

Brian:

That I know exactly the workflow you're talking about, and it's such a pain. It's it's so amazing to me that Apple's voice voice memos is so hard. It's it's easy to record and then Yeah. It's a

Ryan:

great recording experience. Share the live. Yeah.

Brian:

I mean, that's liter like, in Clarity Flow, which is a a messaging tool async messaging tool. And and our customers who are mostly coaches, they they really often use it on mobile or or, like, sending in and so, like, it's crazy how, like, recording video, just through the browser is easy enough. Totally. But, like, but recording an audio and then and then uploading it and that and sending that is is just annoying. And and we ended up building our mobile app for Clarityflow, like, mainly to solve that one problem, just the audio method.

Brian:

Because the video piece was fine. Yeah. You know, because, like, before that, for the first, like, year or 2 years of Clarity Flow, I had to, like I gave people, like, a whole step by step. I'm like, alright. Use the voice memos app, then save the thing to your file storage and and

Ryan:

Or air drop it to your cell for whatever. Like come down to, like, to to

Brian:

get the file and then, like, copy it over here. Like, oh my god.

Ryan:

Yeah. So I mean, just that workflow. And I think, and then adding some niceties around it, like,

Brian:

having the whole transcription thing where, like, regardless of the audio format,

Ryan:

it puts it towards, like, regardless of the audio format, it puts it towards, like, optimized for delivery via the web, or you can grab the raw source or whatever. So that's kinda one of the things I was working on. But since then, I've also just been kinda like, it got to a point, and I was like I guess I was more focused on building the field recorder and having it be this, like, local first, almost like offline progressive web app. And, so I wasn't focusing so much on the API at that point. But at this point, I almost wanna almost have those as, like, 2 separate projects, like this, like, field recorder and then, like, transmits as, like, this service and then pair them up at some point, but not have one be limited or beholden to the other, if that makes sense.

Brian:

I don't know. Why do you see it that way? What like, is there, like, a separate use case for each?

Ryan:

I think there is. And I think when it comes to the local first stuff, like, if you wanted just like, imagine basic voice memos as is if you just wanted to have it in your pocket and just quickly record something, have, local transcriptions of your audio, and then being able to, like, quickly search through, like, audio notes could be a cool offline only. You don't really need the syncing service. And then I think it gives you superpowers when you can then have that be, like, a first party client for transmits, which is like this, audio API, where then you can start easily share and upload it. So I must think that it it that's where I started to get the chicken and the egg.

Ryan:

It's like, well, do I build this, like, full featured offline only recording thing and without the the, like, online syncing sharing stuff, or do I build the API?

Brian:

So so if I understand it correctly, like, transmits would be, like, the platform that users can quickly Share. Upload and share and get a shareable link.

Ryan:

Correct. And the field recorder would be like a

Brian:

is for that, like, local, like, you know, easy quick recording.

Ryan:

Yeah. With the option of

Brian:

recorder part

Ryan:

offline stuff.

Brian:

That that part feels like, too basic to like, it just the the platform risk. Right? Like, I I feel like with like, Apple's voice memos are just gonna get better, and they have Apple Intelligence, right, which is probably gonna be able to trans transcribe it if it doesn't already. Totally. So I'd be, like unless you already have it built, like, I wouldn't wanna, like, spend a lot of time, like or invest a lot in that being the product if within the next year of of Apple updates, like, that could become obsolete.

Ryan:

Yeah. So I do actually have the, like, the the progressive web app, like, a a a rough kind of demo of it working. The thing I was working in was actually the local transcription. So it's like using WebAssembly to pull down, OpenAI's whisper model and then allowing it to, like, run locally within the browser. So I almost have that part done.

Ryan:

And then, really, at that point, that almost could just be released as, like, its own thing without even the idea of transmits. And then if I and as I build transmits, that's gonna be basically the my first example client of using and consuming the API. So that's kinda that's kinda where that is, but that also just feel like

Brian:

I I do like the local personal, like, use case for, like, replacing voice memos. Because I I do use voice just the the Apple voice memos a lot. Yeah. Either just journals or recording, like, a song on the guitar or something like that. And, and, yeah, it's just like I I can't, like, search any of it or go back.

Brian:

It's just a a long list of stuff that I never go back to.

Ryan:

If I Random addresses?

Brian:

Yeah. Like yeah. Random addresses is, like, where I was when I recorded. Right? Yeah.

Brian:

Like, just the other day, I was I've I've been trying to migrate from using, day 1 app for, like, journaling over to, Obsidian. And, and I like Obsidian for, like, markdown text writing. And then they have this, like, audio recording feature that you can enable. I tried that the other day, and and it sucks. Like Oh.

Brian:

It doesn't it doesn't work. It's it's hard to, like you don't even know if you're recording or or if it's paused. I did a whole recording and the thing got lost. Like

Ryan:

Yeah. Yeah. That's the tricky stuff with some of that some of that media stuff where yeah. You don't know. I mean, I I I guess you actually do you all use use Riverside for, Bootstrap Web?

Brian:

Yeah. Yeah. It was funny when when you're talking about the transcriptions. So, yeah, we we record in Riverside just so Jordan and I can, like, sort of see each other, and and it's really good for for recording a two way podcast. And then I export out from Riverside, and then I upload it to our podcast host, which is Castos.

Brian:

And, it's it's funny how, like, it gets transcribed twice now.

Ryan:

Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Brian:

It's like Riverside automatically transcribes it, and then I upload it to Castos, and then Castos automatically transcribes it. So it's like I think that's also the kind of thing that's just gonna be, like, like, everything is gonna be transcribed everywhere. You know?

Ryan:

Exactly. Yeah. I don't even think transcribe is the real killer feature. I do think, and I don't know if any of these other apps. I actually use trans, Transistor for my podcast, and they also have, audio transcription as well.

Ryan:

But the one thing I would like it to have have, and I'm just not sure if it's doing it behind the scenes is the way that I was thinking with the local stuff is if there's common words that you're constantly reediting because it just never picks it up, That's something that I can actually bake in and have also, like, in those, like, local prompt kinda dictionary thing where then it's like a second layer on top of the transcription. So I could use OpenAI Whisper, but I would love it if if some of these transcription models would take those editing and save that just for me and then reapply it, like, after the fact. You know? I I think that could be something that could be interesting.

Brian:

Wait. So if there's, like, a keyword that you say, like, it's pretty much that point.

Ryan:

They say they transcriptions, and also I I'm probably also partly to blame. I could mumble my name, or I could be a mumber when I'm saying stuff.

Brian:

Always gets, like, I don't I don't spell it like the word castle. It's it's c a s e

Ryan:

l. Right? But it's gonna be descriptions

Brian:

would yeah.

Ryan:

Exactly. So, you know, I've done this with some of the other stuff. I mean, I work on director. One of my clients is, we do basically, like, virtual PT. So, we use human pose estimation models to basically use your camera, and then we can track the body joints and then track roms and all this other stuff.

Ryan:

Well, what we ended up even doing is writing some, like, machine, learning models to like, when you turn a specific way, instead of us, like, trying to, like, understand the position of your nose and the context to your shoulder and all this other stuff, we actually wrote machine learning models that we could then run that data through. So, essentially, doing something similar for transcription. So it'd be getting smarter for the you for the each individual person who's using it, because it's gonna be unique to every single person. You know, like Yeah. Someone might also have a word that's castle.

Ryan:

Then they don't want it Yeah. Yeah. Spelled like your last name.

Brian:

It's almost like like training your own model.

Ryan:

Yeah. Your own local models.

Brian:

Editing your own stuff. Right?

Ryan:

And I think that's where some of this AI stuff is gonna go, is more more local and and streamlining it and being a little more personalized. But again, again, it's like beyond the scope of what I'm trying to chew off right now, but that's where my head starts going down the road. But yeah. So I mean, yeah, I'm working on transmits, and, that's kind of a slow burner. And then I also have, like, a few other little, like, almost not really, like, toy apps, but just kinda like stuff to scratch my own itch.

Ryan:

I actually building I'm building something around, Blue Sky right now that I'm almost have done, but I'm trying to work through some of the What

Brian:

are you building?

Ryan:

The infrastructure stuff. So I'm not gonna actually show you, but it's a, and actually, I didn't realize, so I I started working on it last week or the week before, and I didn't realize where MUBs was gonna be going with his blue sky directory. I don't know if you've if you've checked that out.

Brian:

Saw that. Yeah. That's like a directory of lift of the starter pack. Right?

Ryan:

Well, I think he I think originally he was trying to have it be, like, an all inclusive where, like, if there's different apps or labelers or whatever, you know, feeds and different things like that. But he seems like he's leaning into the starter packs just because that seems like that's the hotness. But I'm basically building packs

Brian:

do see. I I think starter packs are super smart and they're also, like, there does need to be more tooling around them.

Ryan:

And that that's kinda what I'm working on. So right now he has a directory. I mean, I kinda feel bad, but I probably will end up also creating a directory of the starter packs. But I think the one, twist that I plan on putting on it is when you're exploring so from a starter I'm having more of the experience on this app itself to where essentially you can search for starter packs. You can then see a full list of everyone who's in that starter pack.

Ryan:

You can click into their profile and then see starter packs that they created as well as starter packs that they're in. And I think there could be a SaaS I

Brian:

I like that.

Ryan:

Play where you get notified of when someone adds you to a starter pack. So that way, you're aware of it. And there also could be a potential messaging where I can either request to be added to or removed from, but without that having to be in, like, the public channels because it always feels a little bit cringey. Like, yeah, add me to a pack. But Totally.

Ryan:

Maybe a little bit more etiquette around that. I love that. Idea. Yeah. And, like, just being able to be removed.

Ryan:

So actually, I was able to secure, starter packs dot net and starter packs dot org. Just gonna lean into the name. But actually, I think it's kinda interesting because I I love the concept of starter packs, obviously, within the within the context of Blue Sky, but I think there's probably also a lot of

Brian:

about that. I mean, I the the pattern, like, the use case pattern of, like, starter packs as a thing and people replying and asking to be included. I mean, I've done that, and and it is cringey. You know?

Ryan:

Yeah. Totally.

Brian:

But, like, it does it does work, and it's it's also just a really good way to to set, like To discover that. Like, like, yeah, I whatever. It's, like, cringey and markety and everything, but it's but everyone wants to gain more followers. Right? But I also really care about, like, I only want the right follower.

Brian:

I don't want just random. I don't wanna just grow my following count. I want people who are actually I only wanna be included on starter packs that are about the things that I'm about. Like Yeah. You know, products.

Ryan:

Is that That where people are actually gonna engage and and, you know, it's not just about increasing a follower number, but, you know, being with kinda like people like us do things like this. You wanna be, like, in those zones, right, and affiliated with those people and and all that kind of

Brian:

stuff. To find a good way to, I know that, like, these startups are are starting to pop up, but, like, I don't even remember the URLs of most of them and, like, how to find starter packs, a, that I'm on or starter packs that I should recommend to other people.

Ryan:

Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, I that can even could be, like, this next phase that I end up doing. I think it's super easy to show both starter packs that you've created as well as starter packs that you're in, and even get notified. You you could potentially like, this is where I'm I'm trying to figure out if there's, like, a a small little subscription play where, you know, you pay $5, and then you get some basic stats of or notifications when you're added to a pack and, and maybe some light stats over the top of it.

Ryan:

As far as, like, who's following you for what packs, especially if they're following from starter packs, I'll actually I could actually, like, slice and dice, like, where you're coming from.

Brian:

It would be really interesting to me to see, like,

Ryan:

which pack is, like, the most performant. You know?

Brian:

Which one is bringing the most followers? Because then I know, like, who are the types of people that are following me and what are they into? And that Totally. Like, what I should what I should be posting about. Yeah.

Brian:

But the other thing is I I started one starter pack, called podcasters, which is, like, people who are who host podcast. Right? And, and I it's it's also annoying to, like, add people to a starter pack. I don't know if you've done that, but, like, it's Yeah.

Ryan:

I have. It's not like

Brian:

a one click thing. I have to, like, so people will request to be included in my starter pack.

Ryan:

Then you go go find them like, look them up for the via their handle. Yeah.

Brian:

I gotta, like, find exactly how their handle is spelled, and then I gotta go through, like, 3 other screens just to do the ad process. And they're like, wait. What what was it spelled again? And, like, it's it's annoying. You know?

Ryan:

So, I mean, I think there that even could be another play too where essentially I have to look and see if there's a endpoint for creating a starter pack on a on a actor profile or whatever. But, that also might be, like, a nice utility to add to this whole starter pack thing. And then even beyond that, the concept of starter packs to

Brian:

follow someone. They've got the really nice, like, if I don't follow you, I could just click the plus on you and follow you. Totally. The same should be like add you to starter pack.

Ryan:

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan:

But I even think it could even extend beyond Blue Sky. Like, if imagine I could also see whether someone had a YouTube and is, like, posting videos, and I can now I could, like, potentially, like, subscribe to their YouTube as well or who knows? Like, I don't know if I'm gonna put Twitter on there

Brian:

or whatever. But It's so hard to, I would. I mean, I I use them both.

Ryan:

Yeah. Why not? Yeah. It's true.

Brian:

The, it's so hard to think about, like, ideas that are, like, this could be a social network. You know? This this sounds more like a layer on top of all of the network.

Ryan:

Yeah. I think this is like a social social network utility kind of thing. But,

Brian:

the other thing is cross posting. I mean, I I've used buffer for this in the past. I haven't used it recently, but, that's definitely becoming a thing now. So, like, most not all, but, like, most of the tweets or whatever that I put out, like, I'm gonna post them to Blue Sky, Twitter, and Red. Yeah.

Brian:

And I just manually do it to all 3. And

Ryan:

Yeah. And especially if you do any at references, it means you have to go back and, like, take whatever the first one you wrote and then, like, re Yeah. Remap them to the proper handles or whatever.

Brian:

Or I need to

Ryan:

do it.

Brian:

I could do a link on blue sky, but not a link on x and,

Ryan:

like, Yeah. Yeah. Thread it. Although I do think, it seems like blue sky maybe just rolled out threads, which is kinda cool that you can do now. Not to say that I mean, the linking thing is irrelevant.

Ryan:

But if you wanted to really have a a a lengthy thread thing, you can do it now all in one go, I think, which is cool.

Brian:

Yeah. For sure.

Ryan:

But, yeah, I guess to, actually, what's your what's your cutoff? Just just just to

Brian:

I'm pretty open. I don't have anything else other than just projects to get back to, but I don't have any calls or anything.

Ryan:

Okay. No. I just I just wanted to make sure that we weren't we wanna get to some other stuff. But, but, yeah, I actually, you know, I'm always curious about Clarity Flow, and, like, the the life there. You know, obviously, you've you're doing you still have Clarity Flow going and what?

Ryan:

You have one developer kind of, like, working on it full time ish?

Brian:

One one full time developer. She's in India. And, one part time customer success person.

Ryan:

1st mobile success. Yeah. That's cool.

Brian:

So I work on it like I like to think of it like 20% of my time, but the but there are some weeks where it's, like, 5% of my time and other weeks where it's, like, 50% of my time. For the most part, it's, I'm I'll I'll put in, like, a sprint of my work to set up the a new feature. Like, start designing and architecting and directing a new feature. And then I hand it over to her to build out for, like, 6 weeks. And then

Ryan:

Yeah. So that's your head and width, basically.

Brian:

Yeah. Like, that's that's, like, like, yeah. Like, I'll spend, like, a like, one full week going heavy on it, and then I'm, like, really off of it and just kinda answering questions as they come up. Mhmm. And then near the end, which actually happened today, Like, today, we're we're on the final stages of launching a big new feature.

Brian:

We're we're launching forms in, very flow. Like, a custom forms builder. And so she's basically finished all all of it, and I'm spending probably 2 or 3 days testing it all out and putting a lot of, like, the final design polish in front end and just tightening everything up. And so there's probably 2 days of my work sending it back over to her and getting it ready for, like, our deployment process, which will happen next week, which is a few days where we'll deploy it to staging and test it, play it to production quietly and test it and get it out. But, yeah.

Brian:

I mean, that's you know, it's like most days, I might have a a question or 2 in my inbox from my developer or the support person that I that I answer. So that might be half an hour of my time during the day, and the rest of the the day, I'm I'm on my other stuff, except for these, like, one week every 6 weeks where I'm where I go hard on it.

Ryan:

Yeah. No. It's cool to have that as, I guess that's kinda where I'm trying to get to is, like, have you you know, obviously, it would be great to have a breakout success and just have something I could pour all my time into and just every every ounce of effort I pour into it is, like, 10 times the effort, you know, like, returns coming back on it. But, yeah, that could be tricky. I mean, obvious and Weird.

Brian:

It it is in a weird state. Like, I I would say, like, I like this balance that I have right now, but it's not the ideal. Yeah. It's like, I mean, the ideal would be that, like, this product is just so profitable that, like, there's really no reason why I should be doing anything else. But that's just not not the reality.

Brian:

It's also not nothing. Like, it's it's not something that's, like, like, low enough to to say, like, I should just kill it.

Ryan:

Totally.

Brian:

And it's it it because it's something. And we and we have a a customer base and it and it is growing, but it's growing super slowly just like most bootstrap staff is due. It's not enough to pay my my full time salary. It doesn't It also doesn't make financial sense to, like, let

Ryan:

go

Brian:

of the developer and the support person and do everything a 100% myself. Because that's also not sustainable. It just wouldn't be able to really operate if I'm if I'm building everything and I'm fixing every single bug and I'm responding to every customer's email. And and we do a lot of, like, heavy customer onboarding. Like, she like, my my customer support person, she does calls and, like, hours of communicating with clients that, like, I this thing would not work if if I were the one doing all that.

Brian:

Yeah. Because I was doing that for the 1st few years. And then, so it's it's much better, I think, set up with them in place. So that I can just sort of direct the product at an arms length. You know?

Brian:

Yeah. And, and it it's, you know, it's something it's it's still it it's still just slowly growing and, I still like it as a product. I use it all the time still. Like, in my consulting work, I I use Clarity Flow with my clients every day.

Ryan:

That's actually one of the things I was thinking about when you started talking about, instrumental dev, which will I'm sure we'll get into a little bit more detail of, like, what you have going on there. And you started, exploring some of the course stuff because I know that you're kind of like I think you're ping ponging between either doing more of, like, some of the dev tooling and UI stuff or whether you're gonna get into, like, more of the course stuff. I was curious whether you're actually gonna use Clarity Flow as, like, a dogfooding way of, like, being able to almost, like, connect with a, you know, like, a student or course population and and and utilize some of the tools there or not.

Brian:

I might use Clarityflow for some of that, but I'm not really gonna get into I I did decide that, like, instrumental dev is not gonna be, like, a course platform. It's it's really gonna mainly be the UI components for Ruby on Rails.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Brian:

And I'm I'm pretty active on on building that right now. And it's it's coming it's coming along pretty fast now because I'm actually using it in my in my project in my my client project. I'm I'm actually using the components system that I'm building at the same time. So, but, yeah, it's gonna be, basically, you some some form of, I think, an annual membership, or at least an annual license to get access to all of the components. And then the components themselves are gonna be like a big I think a big part of this product is gonna be the documentation.

Brian:

I guess you might think of that as sort of like a it's not really a course though. It's like every component is gonna have its own

Ryan:

page with

Brian:

a video walk through plus, like, text instructions and different configuration. Just like an API doc documentation. But, like Yeah. Like, part API docs, part here's how you can use this component.

Ryan:

Examples or applications or context around how you would apply it. Yeah.

Brian:

Yeah. And I'm building it, like, as a as a tool that you would install like, a a gem that you would install into a rails app that gives you all these commands to to to, like, generate and insert these components into your project. They'll give you some instructions on that. So, yeah, that that's where and and then I do think that there's gonna be a services. Like, I'm already doing my consulting service one one month app, and I think these are gonna sort of merge into the same umbrella under instrumental.dev.

Brian:

So, like, if if I the way that I'm thinking about it right now is the base level product is, like, just getting access to the components. Mhmm. Then there's, like, a maybe a middle level product, which is sort of like a coaching service, and that might be async using Clarity Flow. So you might want my input on your product and maybe coaching you on how to implement some things and maybe answering more more personal direct, like like, coaching and support.

Ryan:

I mean, it could also cut almost go back to, like, where you're even originally taking ZipMessage where it was almost kind of more of, like, async support. Right? So, like, people could be using your components and stuff, and they could post up, like, a video, and then you could asynchly reply, you know, back to back to it basically using that same kind

Brian:

of flow. Some element of that. Like, there there probably be just a a general, like, customer's forum for for that for just general chatter. But if you do want, like, direct support from me

Ryan:

And you're paying for that tier or whatever.

Brian:

Then then you could, like, like, kind of pay for, like, a, like, a pro support package. And then, and then, like, the highest end would be, like, hire me and my team to, like, actually build your application with our Yeah. Component. Yeah. And that's that's the service that I offer now to client.

Brian:

So that's how I see it eventually all kinda coming together. But I'm really actually treating it like, I'm building this thing for me and my team first. You know? Because I just hired 2 developers to work with me on the consulting projects. And it has to get to a point where where I'm able to do that thing where I can, like, just start a project and just give them a a couple instructions and just say, like, alright.

Brian:

Use this, this, and this component, and you're you're good to go. And and the developers are more like back end rails developers. They're they don't like, I designed all the front end UI. So that's what takes me a lot a long time in when I do Clarity Flow is, like, I'm brought in to like, I'm required to make things look nice Yeah. And tighten everything up.

Ryan:

You're the product manager, the the designer, and and then also going in

Brian:

designer person. Yeah. Like, it's like, if if it doesn't look right or the UX is wrong, like, that's on me. I can't just tell my developer to, you know so the components hopefully are a way to, like, lock in the UX and the UI and make it as easy as, like, a a command that they can run. Just insert it and then tweak some may maybe tweak a few options, tweak some talent styles, what whatever it might be.

Ryan:

Yeah. Yeah. And and, I think you were talking about this earlier, but it is one of those cases where it's, like, almost like move slow to go fast. You know? It's, like, when you're building these kind of the bricks and and laying the foundations, it takes a long time.

Ryan:

But then as soon as you do have those in and and it's more than just copy and pasting, but to your point, it's a gem. And it's and it's scaffolding or, like, a CLI that you can kind of, like, quickly just, like, get stuff up and running.

Brian:

Those will hopefully be picked and done. Ask you I was gonna ask you about your consulting work. Like, how do you balance, like, the the 2 retainers plus product work? Right? Like, because, like, that's the thing about, like, up up until now, like, earlier this year, I was doing these consulting projects, but it's mostly just me.

Brian:

And I balanced it, like, okay. About 3 days a week, I'll just sit here and do those consulting projects myself. And then, like, 1 or 2 days a week, I can hack on some product. And and but now I'm trying to set it up so that, like, I'm not even required to to deliver the whole project myself. Mhmm.

Brian:

So that's why but right now it's slower, like, figure out the systems to take in a new a new MVP project from a client. And I scope it out, but I can pretty quickly, like, hand it off to my developer. Maybe one person to, like, lead it and and write up all the issues, and then and then my developer can knock them out. Yeah.

Ryan:

Yeah. That's not

Brian:

actually that flow. That that's really because that that's taking a long time right now to, like, what is the actual process that that doesn't require me to spend a whole week scoping out of?

Ryan:

And, I mean, actually, you're kind of almost pulling from your old playbook. You're kind of not to say this is a productized service, but you are productizing it to a certain degree or at least process Yeah. Pro like, having a like, creating a process. And that's the one thing that I, I mean, my partner, she she always asks me or tell tells me is, like, you need to figure out how to, like, hire some people to do some of this stuff and take the work take some of the work on my plate. But I'm so I guess, I get a little bit conflicted with that one.

Ryan:

I do realize, like, the amount of time it takes and effort to get people put up to get get them up to speed and really build a good fluid process. And, I guess sometimes I just don't feel like I'm up for that work. And then another thing too is I guess, like, almost like in a weird, not to say, like, sadistic way, but, if I keep feeling the heat of the con consulting work pushing me to actually do my own products and get out from underneath it. Maybe that's more of like a fire under my ass to to Mhmm. To build that margin.

Ryan:

Because I mean, there definitely is a world where, like, if you get really if you get this process down and you end up potentially hiring 4 or 5, you know, developers, maybe a designer and, like, a product manager, you could actually have your own agency. But, I guess I'm more in, like, the Yeah. My mindset's more in, like, the product studio kind of space where, like, I would love to get to a point to where, you know, maybe I have 3 or 4 little products and also, like, enough space and margin to kinda be I'm just a tinkerer. I like I love tinkering on stuff. And so I wanna, like, have, like, almost just like that mad scientist, like, workshop, computer workshop lab where

Brian:

I can going for as well. Like, product studio is is also the the word that I think describes what I'm going for in general. The consulting stuff, I I don't wanna, like I don't because, like, people can look at that in a few different ways. You can look at it like, okay. I'm, like, I'm really investing into it to to grow into a big agency, and that's the big business that I'm focused on.

Brian:

Or people look at consulting like, oh, it's just something that you do, like, temporarily from time to time to to pay some bills, and then you can turn it off, on, and turn it off. But I I think that there is something in in between them. And I I don't like it being so temporary because it's it is really painful to, like, turn it back on. Totally. Because To to get the

Ryan:

leads and doing the marketing and, like, keeping the

Brian:

The drum. It's like

Ryan:

the drum. You

Brian:

just when you when you need it is, like, really hard.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Brian:

So you sort of have to keep the business going to to get that natural, like, word-of-mouth referral stuff happening. Right?

Ryan:

And you gotta figure out how to and I guess what you're almost working on right now is, like, at at that point, also, how do I auto scale? You know, how do I have a process so dialed in to where, like, we can flex and contract and, you know, expand and contract, like, fluidly and figure that out. Now granted, a lot of that is also find finding the right people or finding the right talent pool to be able to pull from, at a time, you know, when you need them, but that's tricky.

Brian:

Do have, so, like, I I I come from a experience with audience ops. I don't know how how much you know about that side of things. It it's a little bit different this time around, but I'm trying to do something similar where, like, when I started audience ops, which was a blog writing product type service, literally on day 1 when I started that business, it was like, I'm not gonna do this business if I am ever writing articles myself. Like, that's just a non nonstarter. So, like, I hired writers from day 1, and then pretty quickly hired project managers to talk to the clients, and some other people, and, like, editors and stuff like that.

Brian:

But, like, ultimately, that it was sort of hard to figure out all the processes, but it it became, like, pretty easy to build out that service and the process and the and the defining the roles and then fully removing myself to a point where, like, clients can sign up and never talk to me. And and I don't even need to give any input on on anything that's going on because I've got great managers and great writers doing it. But this is a little bit different because I am I am very still much, like, still very much involved with the client. Yeah. And I still wanna be.

Brian:

I still like the I like, the the work of understanding the the product idea, who it's for, architecting a really good solution, like, figuring out the road map, even, you know, architecting the features, how how they should be built, designed in them. I like that stuff. But I'm trying to figure out how to and and I and I've also I also have a pretty good handle on, like, hiring just a back end rails developer, and I've got a a good team that I can scale there. Like, I work with a staffing agency in India who who can easily scale up and down as as I need to. So that's been pretty good.

Brian:

But, like, they need tickets ready to build.

Ryan:

Yeah. Yeah. I keep the ticket the ticket pipeline Yeah. Primed.

Brian:

So so that's what's that's, like, the big bottleneck. It's, like, me writing up these detailed tickets. And even before that, like, creating wireframes and mock ups in in Figma. Like, I do all that, and I haven't yet figured out how to, like, hire not someone to, like, fully even replace me from that. I still wanna be involved in it.

Brian:

Mhmm. But I wanna spend, like, one day on it instead of, like, 10 days on it. Yeah. So, like, if I can, like, just do the the high level direction, then somebody else sort of puts it all together, then maybe I take a look and give some give some notes, then we finalize it, and then we hand it off to the devs, like, that would be beautiful.

Ryan:

Yeah. And I think you'll get there. It's just, again, it's just a matter of time. And, actually, I think the earlier that you pull yourself out of that flow, the less you'll be able to really optimize on it. And, also, like, you know, you always hear about, like, packaging up the sawdust.

Ryan:

Well, you actually need to be there creating the sawdust to then understand, like, where the value is and, like, what am I putting on the floor that actually could be the value that I need to, you know, whether it's making the Figma component, you know, library that you can just slap these, wireframes together with or, you know,

Brian:

Figma is another thing. I don't know how much you work in Figma. I like, I, I went deep on it last week. And I've been using Figma, like, for years, but, like,

Ryan:

so rough. Like, I don't

Brian:

use components. I don't use auto layout or any of that. Like, I just learned, like, how to how to use all that stuff. And, like and even even, like, I I created a whole template project with, like, my wireframes, how I like them, all components, all auto layout. It's great.

Brian:

But, like, even still, like, I duplicated it to, like, 2 2 client projects. I'm like, man, I'm still doing a ton of clicking and typing in little labels for things. Like, it's it's just clicking and duplicating templates and instances of components. Like, this has to be automated. Like, does Figma have an API that I can, like, program the designing of of wireframes and

Ryan:

Well, I mean, it might I mean, maybe you start digging into that v zero, buy or sell or whatever. You're you're gonna just AI generate, some of the stuff and tweak it.

Brian:

Some of that too. Yeah. Like, there there's AI, like, it it it's it's not there yet for for design stuff. Like, it's Yeah. It's there for coding and using cursor and stuff like that.

Brian:

For design work, it is not it it's not really use at least I'm not aware of the the new stuff. But, like,

Ryan:

it's Yeah. There is a pipeline actually, I think, where you can, both feed React components into Figma or also, like, generate React components out, which I know, obviously, v zero is just using Shad cn and and all React stuff. So there might be some sort of weird way to where you can figure out some sort of flow to kind of regen some of that stuff and maybe also feed it the component. You know, ideally you'd wanna feed it your components that you would have and just like,

Brian:

Yeah. That's the thing. It's, like, all the

Ryan:

automated stuff that you pages, and Yeah. I want a standard header footer across all of, you know, like, in I was just doing

Brian:

it this morning. And and, like, yeah, like, all that automated stuff is, like, taking a Figma file and and converting it out to code. And

Ryan:

But you wanna generate more Figma.

Brian:

I want the the only use for Figma in my whole process is, like, before we start coding. And mostly and when it's just me, I don't even I don't even use Figma. I just go straight into designing.

Ryan:

Yeah. Design in the browser. That's my that's my mode.

Brian:

Exactly. That like, that's how I do stuff. But but then when there's, like, a client and a team involved, I sort of need, like, a visual thing that we can all, you know, get get on board with.

Ryan:

Totally. Yeah. I mean, I've worked with, different teams, and they've used Figma to different capacities. You know, some of them are very they have their, design system, like, you know, core elements, you know, like the natives where it's just, like, the colors and the spacings and stuff. And then they have those then fanned out to individual components with auto layout and and also, like, the ability to, like, dynamically scale spacing within those based off of, like, other units and files.

Ryan:

And, I mean, that's

Brian:

It's crazy. Like It's

Ryan:

a crazy system. Go with it. Yeah. And, A lot of

Brian:

times I look at those systems. I'm like, what's the point? Just build it. Just build the final web.

Ryan:

I mean, at that point, every you know, people say, you should designers learn how to code. It's like they're almost coding. They're just happen to be doing it in, like, a very WYSIWYG way, but it's code one way or the other. Yeah. It's just like, how can you extract all that effort out of it and not have to do it twice?

Brian:

Yeah. Totally. But, like, getting back to, like, the product studio thing, the what I would really love to get to, and I feel like we're not far off, is, like, having a flow of these MVP consulting projects and and a flow of customers buying the component and maybe some something for that middle plan. And so that's like a solid, like, cash flow business in itself.

Ryan:

Right? Mhmm.

Brian:

And then and if I have the right team members in place and I've removed myself enough from those processes, then I can spend most of my time spinning up little product ideas using the component. Maybe doing videos showing how how I'm using the components How

Ryan:

you're applying the components, expanding that component library, and maybe also some of the tooling around it. I mean, that's where I think you gotta be using this stuff if you actually wanna kinda, like, evolve it.

Brian:

Yeah. And, like, even just building out these processes. Like, I'm just in the past 3 weeks, I'm thinking about, like, 3, I think, pretty solid product ideas for, like, tools that I would wanna be using in my consulting pipeline flow. Like, you know, like a proposals tool and, like, an invoicing tool and a and, like, maybe maybe something around the wireframing tool. Like, like, these are processes that we could use internally, or these are, like, products or tools that we could use to to to improve our flow.

Brian:

Because right now, I'm I'm sort of, like, hacking together different things that, like, between, like, Notion and, like, harvest invoices, different things, like, it's not pretty. And then, but, like, these these could be potential products, like, small simple SaaS products that are pretty easy to to spin up using component. You know? So, like, if nothing else, it's like tools for ourself and, and, like, content for for videos. And then we happen to ship it as a real prop.

Brian:

Like, if I can

Ryan:

Yeah. Yeah. Not fully to

Brian:

the point where it's like

Ryan:

Not always isolated and just personal use, but open it up for public consumption and figure out yeah. I mean Yeah. I think that is the dream. Yeah. I know.

Ryan:

All this stuff just takes so much time. You know? Yep. And then yeah. Yeah.

Ryan:

It's so tricky. But

Brian:

So, like, what's your what's your next thing? What what's your, like, like, I guess, maybe, like, before we wrap up here, like, what's your main thing that you're trying to get get done, I I guess, here between now and the end of the year?

Ryan:

So yeah. So, I mean, I think starter packs is gonna be, the the one that I get out first because I just think I like that. Try to try to jump on the hype wave, and not even say that it's hype wave. I actually just generally think blue sky is a like, I just feel better there for whatever reason, even if people just it's because people are saying that you feel better there, but there is something different. And when I go back to Twitter, it's night and day between, like, the ads and the recommendations and other stuff that I'm just randomly seeing in there.

Ryan:

And I guess I've never been, like, much of a blocker, or a muter or whatever on, like, either platforms. And I just never felt like I had to until recently. And but at the same time now that I'm looking at Blue Sky, I'm like, man, I should have been doing I should have been blocking more stuff. Yeah. Because maybe I was just kind of like a frog in the pot, like, with the hot you know, with, like, the water getting warmer.

Ryan:

I was just, like, boiling myself at some point, and I didn't realize it or something. You know?

Brian:

Totally. I, I I was just I just posted a a tweet today about this, but, like, I don't even know what it's called on blue sky. I just call them tweets. Yeah.

Ryan:

I think that Skeets? Is that what people are something like that?

Brian:

I I I don't think I can get on board with that. Yeah. But the, but the, I I do think that it's sort of overblown on both sides. Right? Like, that, like, x is, like, super right wing, this and that.

Brian:

And, like, blue sky is super left wing. Like, there might be some of that in some places or some feeds, but, like, I just follow people that I'm interested in. And if they're annoying, then I'll just unfollow them. And Yeah. Like, that's it's it's not that bad on on either side.

Brian:

You know?

Ryan:

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian:

But I like your direction on, like, the product because, like, I that is I'm using Blue Sky a lot, and I'm definitely already feeling sort of, like, the pain point that you were talking about around, like, lists and discovery and connect and finding the right connections between people, I feel like there's something pretty useful there.

Ryan:

Yeah. I mean, I think and it's a pretty it's a pretty light app. I mean, I have all the UI done at this point. I even I also have, like, the OAuth to be able to add accounts. It's more about just, like, playing around with you know, I know people can have multiple accounts.

Ryan:

So I'm like, do I allow for multiple account switching in this app or just launch with just the one? You know? I actually actually, this was, like, a different idea. Maybe I maybe I should or should not say it on the pause because I'm not sure how quick I'll be able to get to it. But the fact that people can have, custom handles, that's almost like a whole other aggregation space where essentially, a like, I I've seen some other companies doing it where, they'll use, like, subdomains.

Ryan:

So it'll be, like, at, I think the guy the guys from Honeybadger, like Josh or Joshua, like, at josh.honeybadger.com. It'd almost be cool to even get, like, auto groupings of everyone who's, like, at a root domain level to where you could then see, like, everyone within, like, a company or or, like, a group or an organization and, like, a fit almost have, like, affiliations based on your handle, and be able to explore that

Brian:

way too. I this this would probably be more of like a a feature for Blue Sky itself or or Twitter. But the thing that I always wanted is, some sort of, like, group feature. Like, I wish I could and this is where it gets to, like, the annoying, like like, or not or trying not to annoy people with with certain subject matter. Right?

Brian:

So, like, it I I always wanted this. If if I could if people could, like, subscribe to or follow me, but all but choose to follow my tweets about politics, or choose to follow my tweets about products, or not. Right? Like, if you wanna follow my stuff about bootstrapping and product

Ryan:

Like sub sub feeds almost, like, per user.

Brian:

Wanna hear my political opinions, then, like, uncheck that box. And then and then when I put out a tweet

Ryan:

You tag it.

Brian:

I could say, like, show show this to everyone or show this only to people who subscribe to my political tweet or whatever it is. You know? Mhmm. I I don't

Ryan:

know what that is. But Twitter had that, but it was on the opposite side where it was, like, you know, you had those, kinda community feeds. Like, there was, like, build in public and some other things where you could send tweets in there, then you could choose to have them also sent on your main timeline. Like, you could almost do, like, a isolated tweet, but that was that was a little bit on the opposite side where you would be specifically tweeting to a specific group as opposed to, like, tweeting to your main and then having it almost like auto filtered based off of, like, what someone is, subscribing to you for. Whether they want all of it or whether they only want a subset of product or politics or sports or whatever.

Brian:

Yeah. For sure. I don't know. Just just build another social network. It'll

Ryan:

be fine. Yeah. No big deal. But yeah. So yeah.

Ryan:

I mean, I I wanna get that out. And, ideally, you know, it it's always you start end of year, you start reflecting on the years or year past and, like, what your plans are for the future. And I guess I haven't done that deep that really big deep dive of, like, what do I want 2025 to be? You know? Like, is it the year of what?

Ryan:

And is there some stuff that I can put out ahead of time that will, you know, be be the kindling for whatever that year might be? I'm not sure yet. How about yourself? I mean, instrumental dev, is is that the is that the the horse you're racing on?

Brian:

Yeah. For sure. I feel like I made some pretty good progress on the components library itself, like, using that internally. But the thing that I I really need to get going on is, like, instrumental dev, the website, and the ability to, like, see the docs and have an account log in, like, buy the stuff.

Ryan:

Mhmm. I haven't reported out anything yet. Foresee the, like, what are the SKUs, do you think? Is it just access to the site and then you'll be able to get access to, like, the gym or and the documentation? Or is are you kinda playing around with that right now?

Brian:

I haven't, fully figured it out yet. I am building instrumental dev as a as a rails app itself. Yeah. My thought right now is so the components currently live as a as a gem in in a private get GitHub repo. I I think I'm gonna have some sort of, like, authorization token that you that you buy access to.

Brian:

Mhmm. And, I think it'll be, like, an annual license. And we'll somehow check, like, authenticate.

Ryan:

Token. Yeah. Token validity, like, as you're using the gem, and you'll retain access and use of that.

Brian:

Yeah. I mean, I guess, like, theoretically, you can, like, download it today and use it. And and if you don't renew your your thing next year, you'll still have it in your project to use. You just won't be able to get, like, the latest stuff, but you'll you'll also lose access to, like, the there'll be, like, a a membership component. So, like, being able to log in and, like, there will be, like, a member's chat group may maybe losing access to, like, the docs.

Brian:

Like, I I I do think that there's gonna be an SEO play too. So, like, every component is gonna have a page, and some portion of it is gonna be publicly viewable. And probably other other parts of it are gonna be hidden to, like, just members.

Ryan:

Gotcha.

Brian:

I haven't really figured out all the details on that yet, though.

Ryan:

Yeah. It's so tricky to figure out, like, what to hide and what to really put out there. Because to your point, from, like, a promatic like, programmatic SEO standpoint or whatever, you wanna have as many pages and, like, keywords leading to that. So to artificially

Brian:

Most of them are gonna have videos too. Like, I I wanna do, like, a video overview or, like, how you could use this component, but not like and then it's also a question of, like, what do you actually like, do I show how to build this component? Because you could just build it. Mhmm.

Ryan:

Or or

Brian:

you can Yeah.

Ryan:

How to use it? Yeah. How to use it in, like, a context. Yeah.

Brian:

Yeah. But that's yeah. That'll be the next thing, and then I I wanna get that going. I I wanna get my I have my consulting stuff going. I'm trying to get the processes worked out.

Brian:

My real goal for 2025, I think, is gonna be to work less. I I would love to, I was just saying this to to my my wife the other day, like, if I I I think my goal for 25 is gonna be to to work 4 day week.

Ryan:

Nice.

Brian:

And that that might be like because I have to, like, have, like, a forcing function in my life to say, like, you're not supposed to work Friday. You know? Because if I just work because currently, I just work every day. You know? Some sometimes more than 5 days a week.

Brian:

And, yeah, I I need to get my systems and team in place and products, you know, at a at a certain place where, like, next year, I could be totally fine just working 4 days a week. Try to get some more space

Ryan:

there. Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, yeah, to

Brian:

your theory again.

Ryan:

And to go back to, you know, how I balance the client stuff and the person you know, and the personal project stuff, it's I basically as soon as I drop the kids off at school and race home, maybe I'll go for a quick run, you know, just to kinda clear the head and get the body, like, ready. And I just try to jam through as much client stuff as I can until about 3 or 4. And then, you know, within, like, that next, like, hour or 2 that I have tried to get a little bit of headway into the client stuff or to the personal stuff. And then, nights and week ending it like crazy just, just to to make it happen. But yeah.

Ryan:

So there really is no good balance to it. It's you know, I'm in I'm in multiple Slacks, and I'm getting pinged from, like, multiple sides and stuff.

Brian:

Yeah. Rough.

Ryan:

But, you know, it's just kind of

Brian:

the I mean, the the

Ryan:

the necessary evil for now.

Brian:

Clients. I I do I don't love, like, feeling like I have deadlines, and I do have deadlines. Like

Ryan:

Yeah.

Brian:

We agreed to a project, and I have to deliver something every week on them. But I don't, I very specifically don't say, like, I'm gonna work these days or these hours. You know? So it's just like, you're gonna hear from me once a week.

Ryan:

Yeah. You'll get

Brian:

reports. Day. Yeah.

Ryan:

You'll get weekly check ins, and I'll send you over stuff to preview or whatever. I mean, I I actually am probably. It is pretty good to where it is pretty autonomous. You know, it's like we have tickets on the board. We move stuff through.

Ryan:

We're communicating in Slack, and it's not very, you know, it's not like I have to be in a seat between x hour you know, hours, but there probably is, like, a slight expectation that I would be getting back, you know, within, like, a certain amount of time. So that's definitely tricky to balance. But, yeah, I love the idea of, you know, just trying to to peel back and get more hours in.

Brian:

Yeah, man.

Ryan:

Kinda I

Brian:

just feel like I, like, I I would love to have a day, a week that's not a weekend to just say, like, I'm not supposed to work today. I could just I could do whatever I want today, whether that's sleep late or work out more or whatever it is.

Ryan:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's You

Brian:

have it.

Ryan:

And that's why we that's why we try to do these, like, personal independent things is to have that freedom. Right? I mean, the freedom's really where it's at. I mean, obviously, if if you get the the financial reward, that's icing on the cake. But really, I feel like freedom first and then, Yeah.

Brian:

Like, what are we even doing this for?

Ryan:

You know? Yeah. Exactly. Well, cool, man.

Brian:

I don't

Ryan:

think there's one other thing I wanted to ask you about, but maybe we'll get maybe we'll get to another one. But Actually, yeah, I didn't tell you. We got 83 people on here right now. Yeah. Actually, if there's shit.

Brian:

I don't know.

Ryan:

If there's any questions

Brian:

Is there, like, a live chat that I could see or no?

Ryan:

It look so far, only one person from, Twitch has said something.

Brian:

Oh, right on. Alright. Well, that's cool to know. I I had no I I thought nobody was watching this.

Ryan:

No. Yeah. We have we have, 83 people on. So if they, if they, want to ask a quick question while I have Brian on the line, feel free to bring it in. I think that's kind of the cool thing about trying to do these live shows is, like, the serendipity of maybe being able to feel the question or 2.

Ryan:

Yeah. We we try to

Brian:

we we don't do it live on Bootstrap web, but we we do usually tweet and ask for for questions, like and we always do it, like, 10 minutes before we record.

Ryan:

Of course. Yeah. To see,

Brian:

you know, somebody somebody tweets something.

Ryan:

In the sea of tweets. Yeah. Exactly. But yeah. This is cool.

Brian:

I I do wanna do more live stuff and also just more podcasting like this. Like, getting more in the weeds on technical product decisions. I I love the idea for for jam sessions. It's a great name. Like, it's a, yeah, at, like, more of this.

Brian:

I I we do a bit of it on Bootstrap web, but it's more like business focused, and it's always good to talk to another product person. So

Ryan:

Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, jam sessions actually evolved from it was a meetup that I was hosting at my buddy's co working space. And originally, it was one of those things where, you know, just get 10 people around table. There's a projector there if you wanna if you wanna, you know, plug in and throw something up and just, like, let people check it out.

Ryan:

But it was, originally, it was supposed to be weekly, but we kind of slowed the pace on that. I mean, it was almost kinda like masterminds, but not a, not like us not like a dedicated group. And also it was interesting because it it was open to anyone could just join. Nice. But it was first come, 1st served.

Ryan:

So there was there was people from you know, there was artists and technologists and, a guy who was trying to start a a whiskey brand and and all these different things, but

Brian:

super cool.

Ryan:

It was really fun.

Brian:

Hear it. Like, it would be a really cool thing for, like I definitely live in person, but also, like, a remote thing where it's like yeah. Like, do it live and and invite other people on to just present, like, more of like a like a build in public, like, present what you're currently working on.

Ryan:

Get feedback from the panel or the group and maybe even get Panel external live chat feedback.

Brian:

Yeah. Like and but it doesn't have to be confined to, like, a single tweet with, like, a 60 second video. You could actually get the floor for, like, 20 minutes or 30 minutes, like, present your thing and then field questions and and really share it. You know?

Ryan:

Like Yeah. I mean, we had the process was basically everyone went around the room and introduced themselves real quick and kinda just express, like, what they wanted to get out of the the evening. And then we went around, and depending on how many people were there, they basically had, like, 10 minutes or so or and then we did basically, like, another final wrap up. But, obviously, those things ended up going over. And we had Mhmm.

Ryan:

Pizza and beer and, like, you know, it That's cool. It it became like a real social hangout thing. But, but, yeah, I mean, trying to rekindle a little bit of that flavor with this, this kinda live show podcast thing. It's actually I wanted to say, like, thanks for making ripple because that was one of the the sparking moments for, even, like, rekindling the idea of jam sessions. And granted, obviously, this one is not one of the private additions because we're we're live streaming, and this one's going on the live feed.

Ryan:

But I am gonna include it on the ripple,

Brian:

on

Ryan:

that that ripple feed as well. And I think that's just a really cool, project that, obviously, we didn't get a chance to dig into too much right now. But if anyone's listening, I've well, so people are obviously listening, but and they'll have hear this podcast later. I guess maybe you just wanna give people a quick little overview of, like, what Ripple is and

Brian:

Maybe, like, a quick update on it. So, like, yeah. Yeah. It's at ripple.fm, and it is I still I what I liked about it originally, the idea and I built it over the summer this past summer, took about a month on it. It was like it's a it's a podcasting social network, and it's still sort of amazing to me that, like, podcast in general are not more network.

Brian:

Right? Like, if you listen to my podcast, you should be able to easily not only commute first of all, like, listeners of my podcast are not connected to each other unless they come into the ripple. But listeners of my podcast are very similar to other podcasts, and they should be able to network with those. And that was the original idea. And it's also like a private podcasting thing.

Brian:

So so I have a private you have you have a private feed. I have a private feed. Couple other people do. And you can start one up. And and the nice thing about these is that it's it's more like semi private.

Brian:

Right? Like, anyone can subscribe to my private podcast, but I do require an email. Yeah.

Ryan:

I know. And everyone gets their own unique feed URL.

Brian:

Gets their own unique feed. So, theoretically, I'm not doing it right now, but I could, like, charge for access, and and turn on and off. So I think that's probably where I'm gonna go with it if if I go anywhere with Ripple. Like, right now, it's sort of, like, you know, couple hundred people use it, and it's not and it's all free. Nothing's nothing's paid.

Brian:

But I think in the future, at some point, I might sort of, like, refocus the thing around the private podcasting side. I still think that public podcast should be more network than they are. Mhmm. Yeah. But that's it.

Brian:

I I thought there might be some, like, viral traction that would happen, and that just didn't really take off. But the,

Ryan:

I feel like it was kinda I feel like it had a moment. It had, like, a hot moment when people were really commenting and and were active in the in the things.

Brian:

We get some comments from Bootstrap Web

Ryan:

Yeah.

Brian:

Listeners. But, like, the, I like the private piece because, like, I might really just focus it on, like, this is a this is a way to have a private podcast feed with your friends, your organization, or your audience. It's already set up now where you can, like, add those emails to your ConvertKit list.

Ryan:

Oh, right.

Brian:

But then, like, adding the ability to, to, like, charge for for access and just make it, like, a private like like, solely a a private podcasting tool.

Ryan:

I

Brian:

think Mhmm. Because it's it's mostly there. I just need to sort of, like, refocus the the marketing around it. But I don't know I don't know even when I'm even gonna get around to to doing all that. But Yeah.

Ryan:

I know.

Brian:

One of those one of those things that it was fun to build, and it's it's still up and running. And it helped me move move along in my in my components library as I was building it.

Ryan:

Totally.

Brian:

It was also a good opportunity to to really learn all the hot wire stuff in in Rails. And, like, that was the project that, like, I was able to really go deep and, like, get a solid handle on on on all those patterns because Clarity Flow started, like, before all that came around. So Yeah.

Ryan:

Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Actually, when, when you did the pivot from, Clarity Flow to or from Zip Messers to Clarity Flow, I was I was curious. Did you lose a lot of like, was there a lot of churn when you kinda made it more coaching focused, or did some people stick around?

Ryan:

Not to anything else you don't have to answer because if you don't want to.

Brian:

Yeah. No. There there has been churn, but it wasn't sudden. It was like, because the the focus on coaching started before we even changed the name. Yeah.

Brian:

Probably started, like, 6 months before. And then, and then when we did the the name change, MRR actually went up because at the same time, we we raised prices.

Ryan:

Raised prices. Yeah.

Brian:

But old people were grandfathered in. They still are. And, yeah, there there has been a slow churn of legacy customers, but they're replaced with new customers. And all the new customers are paying, a higher price than the old than the old customers. So we are we are losing, but they're we're replacing them with higher revenue customers.

Brian:

So, ultimately, what that has looked like in the in the last year, is, like, if you segment the MRR graph, which I do, between legacy and and new customers, it it's sort of like a big x

Ryan:

to your customers. Kinda tape like, tapers off, like, the ones that are going down are then made up by

Brian:

goes down and new new goes up, but new is worth more. So it it it equates to, like, a slowly growing Yeah. Total MRR. Yeah. Totally.

Brian:

We've had some unlocks in in the last couple of months on on on, like, SEO, and and we killed our our free trial recently. And now we just people, purchase on day 1, and that that's been a really interesting experiment, which is sort of working. We're about to launch a big forms feature. So, like, the

Ryan:

And you also had another

Brian:

big happening, but, like, it it's still, like like, it's it's growing slowly and then and then a bump and then more slowly and then another bump. And

Ryan:

Yeah. And you had another big feature released recently. Right? Or was it the

Brian:

appointments.

Ryan:

Payments? Appointments. That's right. That's right. Cool.

Ryan:

Appointments.

Brian:

Payments about a year ago, and then, appointments was, like, 2 months ago. It was, like Gotcha. Basically account like, calendar booking built in.

Ryan:

Yeah. So kind of like a Calendly or SavvyCal ish kind of thing.

Brian:

Yeah. I wouldn't normally advocate, like, building all these different tools into one product, but, like, coaches want they want all this stuff in there. They they like, if you're a coach, you're booking appointments with clients. You're selling coaching packages. You're sending forms because you're sending like quizzes and assessments.

Brian:

Mhmm. Onboarding forms and and and they're running courses through us. We have a courses feature. And, Yeah. Trying to try and just power your whole coaching.

Ryan:

I mean, what's wild is actually when you start saying that kind of stuff, especially with the forums, I almost think that, like, if you were to take like the engine and then maybe have it be, I mean, the actually clarity flow name is pretty great, but for like user testing, you know, imagine being able to, send, like, a request out like, a video request out to someone, say, like, go check out this website, run through it, record yourself, and then, like, send, like, a follow-up, like, NPS or who knows? You know?

Brian:

Like What you just described, that actually was the original idea for ZipMessage.

Ryan:

Oh, that was ZipMessage? Okay. I mean, I I use ZipMessage. Maybe I was thinking of of it more from, like, a support standpoint as opposed to, like, user testing, but I guess it could be

Brian:

Yeah.

Ryan:

Used for We

Brian:

did have a few a few users who wanted to use it for user testing. But, yeah, actually, my my original thought for the product was more like a support thing where where I could send any user a link to, like, if you're in a customer support context and I need to see what happened, you can I can send you a link to go record your screen and send it back to me? The problem with that, and and you can do the same thing for, like, sales or for, like, asking for responses from from anyone. The problem is that if you don't have a strong relationship, the incentive for the other person to actually, like, click the thing and, like, record video into some into some strange new tool, like, that is hard. And that that's what it like, that's why we sort of pivoted very early on into, like, async conversations, But then we pivoted to clients because or to coaches and their clients because, like because they have a paid relationship.

Brian:

You know? Clients are paying for access to the coach. And because of that, they're much more willing to actually respond and engage in using the tool. And then once they do, it's like, this is a really efficient way to to have an async conversation.

Ryan:

Yeah. Although, I do think, obviously, Loom was probably, like, the big player in the space. But also, from a customer support standpoint. I don't imagine many general, like, brow like, Internet people are really using Loom. You know, I think that's more probably focused towards, like, the product team and that a browser based your browser based alternative seemed like the probably the least, the most accessible least idea.

Ryan:

Least a lot of barriers.

Brian:

You know? Telling because before that, I was telling customers. I was like, hey. Go sign up for this tool. It's called Loom, and you gotta install it, and then you and then you do it, and then you send me a link.

Brian:

And, you know, so like that people who are unfamiliar with that whole thing is, like, I mean, yeah, Loom has gotten much more widespread since then, but,

Ryan:

but I would say

Brian:

your average even your average like, one, like, one way one way, you know. Yeah. And and I think the thing that that resonated early with ZipMessage was that you could have, like, a threaded reply. I mean, that's why, like, yeah, we sell it to coaches, but, like, I still use it with my clients all the time. Like, I literally I have entire client engagements where we don't have any Zoom calls.

Brian:

It's just clarity flow. Like, sending them updates, async with video, and, or or text. Easy. Same thing with my team. I don't do team calls really.

Brian:

It's just all async.

Ryan:

That's cool.

Brian:

The only calls I do are podcasts these days.

Ryan:

No. I mean yeah. I think it's interesting. I mean, there probably is, like, a weird, like, horizontal play where you could basically take what you the underlying engine of Clarityflow and potentially, like, spin up multiple, like, targeted things at different people and and and figure out a way of, like, extracting out that core engine of at least, like, the the video and, and I guess really all the pieces, really. I mean, forms.

Brian:

Yeah. I've I've thought about that too. I've I've lost a lot of

Ryan:

scheduling when it comes to, like, webinars and stuff. You know? But, but that then you get into the whole live thing, which might not,

Brian:

Yeah. No. I mean, the one thing that is still on the, longer term road map as, like, a big maybe, a big question mark is, will we release some sort of white label version of Clarityflow?

Ryan:

Mhmm.

Brian:

Because I get a lot of requests for it, and we've had a lot of customers try to use Clarityflow in a in a white labeled not white labeled, like, reselling it, but, like, clients who are they're they're a coach, and they have a coaching business. And we already give them some branding abilities. Like, you can do custom domains and custom, like, custom colors and stuff like that.

Ryan:

But you also have a mobile app too. Right?

Brian:

And we have a mobile app, and that's not branded. Or it's just Clarityflow branded. Yeah. But then, like, the ability to, like, a lot of customers wanna, like, embed Clarityflow in their preexisting membership site or or custom built application or something like that. And, yeah, we have Iframes and stuff, but it's it's hard to and we don't have, like, single sign on stuff.

Brian:

So so there might be, like, a single sign on, like, deep integration version of it in the future, which we would charge a lot more for. Yeah. If you really wanna go that route. But, Yeah.

Ryan:

I was gonna say, I think, That's

Brian:

like a big maybe. You know?

Ryan:

I know of other companies that have similar kind of white labeling stuff, and I think out of the gate, it's a $60,000 upfront. And then you're also paying a a pretty, you know, high, like, either, like, per seat premium. Really?

Brian:

And and that's the kind of thing that, like, I push off, like and I have mostly have said no as, like, because we we have customers who try to use it in that capacity, and then they they try to, like, push it to its limits in terms of integrations. And then they ultimately realize, like, it's still just an iframe in my site, and it's still too hacky. And then they'll churn. But but these are, like, these are larger companies that are that would would be willing to, like, pay for a deeper integration. So if if we made that so that's something that's, like, maybe we'll get there.

Brian:

It it Yeah. But it could be a big distraction. So I'm not really sure if that's right or not.

Ryan:

Yeah. I mean, it's tricky to to weigh those that that kinda, like, opportunity cost. Right? Because you could build it. And obviously you, you have, you have the knowledge of like, people have attempted to do this and they weren't able to.

Ryan:

And so they did it and ultimately ended up churning, but at the same time, you don't really know whether they would have stayed or found some other issue to churn on. You know? So then you're like kind of taking that risk for like that big build and it's like,

Brian:

it is a big build. It's not like, so yeah. And and for, like it's not like, the majority of our customers. It's only, like, a small segment of them. So Yeah.

Brian:

You know? Like, right right now, we're shipping forms because, like, tons of people ask for the ability to have custom forms. So we know that, like, we can we can really make our customers happy with this one.

Ryan:

Yeah. Deliver on that. Actually, regarding, sorry. Just one question. One month app.

Ryan:

I know you started with, like, an introductory rate of what? Like, $10 or something.

Brian:

Right? Yeah. I technically, that's still the rate. But it's, it the thing and it's gonna be raising in January.

Ryan:

I was just saying you got you got to.

Brian:

Yeah. But the I I part of the misconception, I think, is most projects aren't 1 month. You know?

Ryan:

Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's like a short short time retainer kind of thing or something, or I guess it depends on what you negotiate out with the

Brian:

We're still building an MVP. I do give them a proposal, and I I see my job as, like, let me understand your your product vision or goal for for the problem that you're trying to solve. And I'm gonna give you a proposal for, like, alright. Here's the 4 week version of that. And here and that might be 50 or 60% of what you wanna build.

Brian:

And then here's the 6 week and the 8 week and the 12 week version of of of what you want. And I'm gonna make my best recommendation. Like, look. We can actually ship something that's, like, pretty valuable in 4 weeks. It's not gonna be everything.

Brian:

But all but then, ultimately, like, that's why, like, most projects end up signing on for, like, usually, like, a 2 month project to really Yeah. Like, build out. And then, some of them go go to, like, 3 months. Yeah. But but I I do think that especially using components, keeping things simple and straightforward.

Brian:

We actually can build, like, a pretty solid it it's actually an MVP in 4 weeks.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Brian:

But but the typical thing is, like, we'll we'll keep building after that.

Ryan:

Are you, are you billing for that initial, like, discovery projection of the the different, Right

Brian:

now, no. And that's another thing that I might introduce.

Ryan:

I think you totally could. I think you could do, like, a discovery, whether it's a a few days or a week or something and bill out, like, 2 to $5, you know, to and then basically give them show them the document that they'll say, here's the blueprint. I I'm showing you the Cadillac, you know, the, like

Brian:

Yeah. Well, part of the

Ryan:

Toyota and then the the Kia or whatever. But,

Brian:

I've been thinking a lot about doing that because I have had a few leads who who really had a hard time grasping the concept of, like, oh, it's not like whatever I want packed into 1 month. You know?

Ryan:

Yeah. You're just gonna build me a $100,000 app in 1 month for $10? Come on.

Brian:

Yeah. But it but, but at the same time, I've had plenty of other clients who totally understand what it is that I'm offering, and they and and they easily sign on for, like, 3 months. You know?

Ryan:

Yeah.

Brian:

And so so, like, for that and and in most of those cases, they have done this before. They have some other SaaS product that they've built, sold, or and they they understand that this is actually a pretty good deal even for, like, a 3 month project.

Ryan:

Yeah. Totally.

Brian:

So, like, and, like, for them, like, I wouldn't have really needed a discovery phase. But I think that that's gonna be something that I introduced pretty soon because it's like, it's also like a package,

Ryan:

I think. You know? It's another You can read people out.

Brian:

Yeah.

Ryan:

Like, if people want more of an explanation of what you what you plan on delivering.

Brian:

Yeah. Like like, anytime the proposal process goes beyond a couple days of, like Yeah. Because there have been a few where I where I do the proposal, like, three versions of it after some negotiations. And that's that's where it feels like, alright. I spent way too much time before we even had a product green light.

Brian:

You know?

Ryan:

Totally. So But, yeah, I think there's a But I I know a lot.

Brian:

Yeah. First proposal looks great. Let's go. You know? Yeah.

Brian:

Yeah. It's been, that's been a learning thing for sure.

Ryan:

That was cool. I mean, I I think yeah. To your point about not trying to burn too much time, because I feel like that proposal off it, you know, process I I've worked at agencies before, and I've been involved in putting together these, you know, the you get an RFP, a request for proposal and they could have 2 or 3 people jamming on that thing for like a week trying to put together. Now, granted, they're trying to land potentially like a quarter million to, you know, like, to $500,000. It could be, like, these bigger projects.

Ryan:

And Yeah. You have to weigh that out. But but I

Brian:

think Right now, I I keep it pretty simple. I try to keep it pretty simple, and I have, like, a I just use Notion for the proposal. But I I also think that that needs to be and I know that there are some pretty good proposal tools out there. But, yeah. Like, there needs to be something probably more visual with, like, basic wireframes, without me spending a lot of time reading.

Ryan:

Yeah. Totally. Or at least just to get the point across. It doesn't have to be the the exact thing for, you know, for that deliverable. But here's an expectation of what you will get in, like, the 1st week or whatever, and then build that expectation of, like, how the the whole engagement will progress.

Ryan:

You know?

Brian:

Yeah. But I I do expect that, like, at some point very soon, probably around January, the the main rate is gonna increase, but I'm also gonna introduce the the option for, like, just hire hire me for 1 week.

Ryan:

And Yeah. Like the discovery one.

Brian:

Yeah. And, like, the discovery can be valuable in itself just to just to nail down the road map and some user flows for your idea and, like, get an actual look at, like, what can we ship in a month or 2 months? And whether you work with me or someone else, it's still valuable.

Ryan:

Yeah. Because actually, some of the

Brian:

also oh, like or or you could, like, take my road map and use our component. Build it yourself.

Ryan:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I feel like some of the most valuable stuff that comes out of that is really almost like getting the the roles reversed and having the questions pushed back on them to then have them kind of answer someone like, well, yeah.

Ryan:

What do I want? What am I really trying to achieve with this, you know, in that great place?

Brian:

I I keep turning on this. I'm like, you know, I'm like, maybe there's, like, an AI product that helps them refine their MVP idea and asks all the right questions and then spits back a nicely formatted, like, overview for me to hop into a proposal. Like

Ryan:

Oh, totally. I mean, I think there definitely is that choose your own adventure AI, ask all the right questions. I mean, maybe maybe you run this through Jordan's Rosie, and you do it through

Brian:

That's right.

Ryan:

Through a phone call, and then get the output and and plug that into your Figma and Notion and then autogenerate the proposal, and and you'll be good to go. Yeah. I mean,

Brian:

we we don't need these damn humans anymore. Just automate it.

Ryan:

I mean, I'm all for AI. I but at the same time, I feel like I'm almost leaning more into the human analog. And then I'm just hopefully be leaning on these systems to automate more of the the burdening tasks that come out of it. So that way we keep connections high, but don't get bogged down with all the the rigmarole.

Brian:

That's right, man.

Ryan:

Well, I gotta I gotta get back to that line. I actually tried to ship some of the some of the stuff today. Awesome. Well, it's been great talking with you, Brian. You can find Brian, I guess, where where should people find you online?

Brian:

Blue Sky and x. I'm still on both.

Ryan:

And you're you're, @briancasel.com on blue sky?

Brian:

briancasel.com. Yeah. You search for that. It's it's all all my stuff is, like, linked up on and I and I cohost, Bootstrap web.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Brian:

The other podcast.

Ryan:

Alright. It's been awesome to have you, Brian. Hopefully, this is good. We'll maybe we can do another one in the future and

Brian:

Yeah. I would love to. Gotcha. Yeah. Ryan, thanks for having me on.

Brian:

This is this is super fun.

Ryan:

Awesome, man. Well, you have a great one. Right. Later.