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Uncharted Entrepreneurship - hosted by Brent Peterson out of the Minnesota chapter of Entrepreneurs’ Organization – brings you daring stories straight from the trailblazing entrepreneurs who are unmapping business frontiers across every industry. Settle in around our virtual campfire as Brent sits down to pick the brains of startup pioneers, visionary founders, and intrepid CEOs whose origin stories - marked by unexpected twists, lessons, and stumbles along unpaved paths - will inspire your own trek in launching a boundary-pushing venture. Trading war stories, strategies, and even warnings, these audacious guests invite fellow founders and future leaders into their confidential circles in a uniquely transparent, wise, and motivational way. So join us off the beaten business trails to light your entrepreneurial fire!
Brent Peterson (00:02.37)
Welcome to this episode of Uncharted Entrepreneurship sponsored by EO Minnesota. Today I have Matthew Pollard. Matthew is a bestselling author. He does public speaking. Matthew, go ahead, do an introduction. Tell us your day -to -day role and tell us one of your passions in life.
Matthew Pollard (00:22.791)
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm known as the rapid growth guy and predominantly because I've been responsible for five multimillion dollar success stories. My passion in life is actually about helping introverts realize they're not second class citizens. Their path to success is just different to that of an extrovert. know, the path to success is not by trying to copy those extroverts. It's actually a recipe for disaster, but actually to lean into our natural introverted strengths. And I mean, I learned that the hard way. mean, I actually fell into the literal sales and
ended up, I mean, it was my 93rd door before I made my first sale. I learned some pretty important lessons around how to learn how to sell as an introvert that I still carry with me to this day. And I feel like there's a lot of introverts that are potentially listening that think they can't sell, they can't network. And maybe because of that, they haven't started their own business or they've accepted subpar performance for themselves. And, you know, I spend my life making sure that they realize they don't just know, they don't just
survive in an extroverted world. actually have the ability to truly have an edge and beat their extroverted counterparts hands down.
Brent Peterson (01:26.732)
Yeah. So I want to put, I want to put that on hold for one second and we're going to do the free joke project. I'm going to tell you a joke, but I do want to come back to introverted extroverted sales. And I I'm very interested in this. And we had a green room conversation about, I interviewed or extroverted? And maybe I am more introverted. I would agree that I probably am introverted, but let's do this joke really quick. And all you have to do is give me a rating one through five. So here we go. How did the hammerhead shark do on his test?
He nailed it.
Matthew Pollard (01:58.867)
You know what, I like it. I've always been a fan of, I'm gonna call it a dad joke, but I'm gonna give it a 4 .5. I know you wanted, you're probably looking for a 5 .5 or a seven, but I think 4 .5s were as far as I can go for that one.
Brent Peterson (02:11.118)
Yeah, 4 .5 out of 5 is really good. Thank you. All right. Okay, so, okay, I want to jump right in because I'm I was just at a conference this last couple days and we talked about that energy that you get from being at a show, but then wanting to go back and just decompress in your hotel room. And I am definitely that type of person where I don't I can only take so much of it. I and I do very much enjoy meeting people and walk in the floor and
Matthew Pollard (02:13.907)
You're welcome.
Brent Peterson (02:41.654)
and doing all that networking. and you had some really good feedback. So let's start from there.
Matthew Pollard (02:47.911)
Yeah, absolutely. you know, I'm actually going to go back to a conference I spoke at a while back and I actually spoke at, and this is a horrible, it's just a really long name. They're known as the AAISP, but it's the American Association of Inside Sales Professionals. And the thing that I will say is that in that, before I spoke from stage, I just thought it'd be nice to ask who's introverted and who's extroverted. And this was at the leadership retreat afterwards. And this is
You can imagine the best in the business in the sales world, everyone from tech and finance. And some of the answers I got were horrific. There was, I was introverted, but don't worry. I'm not anymore. Like it's a disease they had to recover from. There was, I was extroverted, but, you know, since COVID I've been a lot more introverted. And I, and I just helped me realize that really nobody knows what introversion is. So let's simplify it. Cause I feel like a lot of people.
They project extraversion on anyone that's successful. you know, my, I've got a podcast called the introverts edge, which is literally showcasing what I call secret introverted Titans. People that are amazingly successful in everything from yes tech, but very other types of businesses as well in careers. And nobody would even dream of that we're introverted. So the truth is that introversion is just this it's where you draw your energy.
So I love networking. I love speaking from stage. I don't love the 15 seconds, 20 seconds before I get invited up on stage, but I love speaking from the stage. I love sales. I love a lot of different, what I would call so -called extroverted arenas, because as I said, I believe introverts have a real strength in many of them, if not most of them. However, I'm just tired afterwards. So if you're a person that goes to a networking event, you may enjoy it.
But if you're energized afterwards, i .e. your cup is more full than it was when you went there, then you're likely an extrovert. If, on the other hand, you may be charged up when you leave, but shortly after you leave, as that adrenaline rush leaves, that you actually find yourself energy depleted, then you're definitely an introvert. There's nothing wrong with that, both groups. I mean, some might say extroverts aren't the best listeners, they're not the most empathetic, but they do know that there is coaching that can help with that.
Matthew Pollard (04:58.779)
On the other side, there are lots of burdens that we introverts have. I think the biggest one is not knowing that we can succeed in sales or not believing that because we don't have gift of gab, we can succeed and if not dominate in all of these so -called extroverted arenas.
Brent Peterson (05:14.562)
Yeah, so in your book, you talk about this a little bit and you talk about some different steps in terms of sales. You don't have to go into detail, but give us the high level of that.
Matthew Pollard (05:25.521)
Yeah, you know, I feel that one of the biggest things that people struggle with in sales and networking is they hit people with fire hoses of information and jargon. I think that's one of the biggest hurdles that I see all the time. I often will see that actually a good example this would be Alex Murphy. He was a, I mean, he just graduated out of college and he decided that he was going to...
opened up his own videography business as opposed to go and getting a job with someone else. And he knew there was a lot of stuff that he didn't know how to do, but he thought he would just learn through the, you know, the school of hard knocks. And to his credit, I mean, he actually was able to get a few appointments, which was pretty impressive for a guy that actually had a chronic stutter that was exacerbated when he was uncomfortable. But he really struggled to close deals. And once we sat down, it was very easy to work out what was going wrong. mean,
Of course, the small talk piece he found really challenging and truthfully, I believe in today's post COVID world, small talk actually isn't even appreciated. As a matter of fact, a lot of the times it's the prospect that then interrupts and says, look Brent, the reason why I booked this call was, and now they've taken control of the sale. So it's not even a positive thing. But what would happen is they would finally get into what they were trying to achieve. And Alex would then start to explain all of the options that they had. I said, Alex, is that about when they asked for the
And he's like, yeah, about then. I said, have you ever heard this, you know, confuse the customer, lose the sale saying, said, for you, the devil's in the detail. What I want you to do instead is just really just tell a story. And I wanted him to tell a story of a customer that he worked with that had a similar outcome that we're trying to achieve and how he got them to an amazing result. And I kind of explained the science behind why story works for introvert like me. It's the same reason why I use story when I go, go and speak from stage.
Because what actually happens the moment you start to tell a story, actually activates the reticular activating system of a person's brain. And it actually creates artificial rapport, which science talks about the fact that introverts are really great once we've got that initial rapport creating deep rapport. And funnily enough, it's actually statistically proven to be deeper rapport than an average extrovert can do with their shallow small talk. So not only was that really powerful for him, people remember up to 22 times more information when embedded into a story. So because of that,
Matthew Pollard (07:39.891)
You don't have to worry about somebody's going to remember what you said. I mean, I remember going out and doing door -to -door sales and knowing even if I saw 10 brochures from competitors on their desk, they'd remember more of what I told them than everyone else combined because I used story as the lever to attach that information. But more importantly, it short -circuits the logical brain, speak directly to the emotional brain, which is the part that buys. The logical part of the brain is like, that'll work for me, that won't work for me, I haven't got time for that, me a proposal, or if you're cold calling, hang up the phone or get out. When you tell a story, the moment...
you share a story, it literally short circuits the part, the logical part of your brain and the emotional brain goes story time and it just listens. And more importantly, it assumes all the detail in the story is fact. So if you share a powerful story, and I don't mean a testimonial or a case study, because those are all about you. I mean a story that really shares an implementation and that builds the character in the story that took the risk, the prospect as the hero in that story.
then when you get to the end, they're going to say, well, I want what Alex has or I want when, what Wendy has. So because of that, said, what I wanted Alex to do is create, I believe most businesses are one story away from the rapid growth business they deserve. And I said, let's create one story that really speaks to this outcome. And I want you to write it out. want you to practice it. I want you to drive your wife nuts telling it to her. And I think if you do that, the first thing that will happen as well is you'll actually be able to be more present in the sale. Cause you won't be stuck in your head, trying to work out what to say. Now,
He had some issues with this originally because he didn't want to sound like a robot. We've all seen those telemarketers that call it seven o 'clock at night. They just come across as robotic and inauthentic. But I helped him realize that even Leonardo DiCaprio and some of our favorite actors, they're all reading scripts. They sound authentic because they've practiced it. So I said, just practice it over and over again. it's more like the story of how you met your spouse. The first time you tell it, it may be a little bit kind of hard to explain. But I know the story of how my wife and I met now, the way we tell it. Gosh, it's a
theatrical masterpiece. I say certain things, she says certain things, we say things together. And I wanted it to be the same for him. So even to work writing out the story, he learned the story. And then he started using the story. And this is a guy that between him, he actually convinced his father to invest some money and come and work in the business and his wife to come and work in the business and max out her credit cards to buy equipment. So between them all, they were struggling to make even six figures, not a happy place to be. They're almost a seven figure business within the space of 12 months, right? So
Matthew Pollard (10:04.805)
All it takes, I find, is learning how to structure a sale differently. And one other piece of advice that I will give is when you have a strong story, you don't actually need to do the whole dance show that most people think sales is. As a matter of fact, I always recommend that when you get on a sales call, all you should do these days is not do what other people say. Like, tell me a little bit about your business. My first question is, I'd love to. After checking out my website, what questions do you have?
and you watch the salesperson implode because they haven't done any research. Now, a lot of people won't be as confronting as I am. So they'll start to tell you about their business. You've lost that opportunity. What I do is I will say, I'm so glad we can get on a call together today. Not thanks for your time, because that's what salespeople do. I come in as an equal. The next thing I do is once they respond with yes, me too, is I say, I've had a moment to obviously...
review the brief notes in exchange, the notes you put on the reservation. I've of course checked out your website and your LinkedIn profile, but because a lot of that is static, what I would like to do first is take a quick step back, hear a little bit more about you, what you're struggling with and how I can be the most help to you in the time we have together today. And then here's the key, I stop talking. Now, a lot of people will say, well, surely there's some small talk before that. No, there isn't. I go straight into that because these days people wanna get a meeting done in 30 minutes. They come in informed, they want you to...
show that you're informed and they want to show, they want you to show that you're there for them. And my entire job is to listen to what they say, empathize if they say anything emotional, and then give them one statement or one question afterwards that gives them a paradigm shift and allows me to explain through the story. That is the easiest sales process I can explain.
Brent Peterson (11:44.302)
Yeah, boy now we have a ton of stuff to unpack. I appreciate all that. I want to start so yesterday I saw Erica Dwan, she has a book about digital adapters versus digital nomad or digital people that are there that are just native digital natives versus digital adapters and older people tend to be adapters where younger people are natives and a lot of it is how you communicate and
Matthew Pollard (11:48.029)
You
Brent Peterson (12:13.644)
And I think you hit like in the very beginning you hit on how we do communicate. And some people tend to communicate in too many words that don't mean a lot that just get people fuzzled and muzzled up in what are you telling me? so then, so I would like to kind of explore it from there, but you all, I think the other parts that were very interesting to me is then the story part of that, about that journey and how you're telling the story. And then the no.
Small talk, and I guess I'm gonna say as an older person, I do believe in small talk, but I do also agree as an EO and an EOS person that starting your meeting on time and ending your meeting on time is way more important than the small talk. So if we can break this into three pieces, the first part is how different generations tend to communicate whether they're an introvert or an extrovert.
But then how can we be that or the best way to approach it in terms of not in terms of just getting it done. and then there are people that want to do that small talk kind of how do you sort of, do you just let them go with it? Because you have a 30 minute call. They said they have a hard stop at the end of the hour. And all of sudden they've just spent 15 minutes telling you about their new grandchild.
Matthew Pollard (13:35.027)
Mm
Matthew Pollard (13:39.219)
Yeah, so here's the thing. If you finish the call on, if you get to the end of your time a lot, and a lot of times these days when it comes to a sales call, they'll give you 30 minutes, not an hour. So if they've taken up 15 minutes talking about their grandchild, you've got 15 minutes to find out their needs, explain your product, close the deal, get them scheduled in. Good luck with that. It's not going to go well. So what you've got to understand these days is that also people, yes, they like small talk sometimes.
But most people these days actually don't. And that is definitely changing within the generations. As a matter of fact, I have got, actually my sister I can even speak to, my sister is the general manager of a mortgage loan company in Australia that literally has a way that you can apply for a loan on their website through chat. Now, because they can't ask a lot of the more detailed questions, they have to always get a slightly higher interest rate because that's the only way you can make sure you haven't made any errors, right? So that the bank can make a little bit more.
People do that chat just so they can stop talking. They'd prefer to buy and pay a little bit of a premium and never talk to someone. That is literally the world we live in today. However, here's what I will say. There are emotional buyers and logical buyers. And as long as you handle this conversation exactly like what I'm suggesting, you will be blown away. Firstly, this isn't something I'm guessing that works. This is something that I have tested with both myself and my clients and...
By the way, I've just got listed sales kickoff speaker of the year by Selling Power Magazine. So there are big billion dollar companies that are applying my ideology every day across all of those. This is skyrocketing closure rates. So I'm not guessing this will work. It just feels mentally wrong before you. So let's break down why that's the case. So the first thing I did when we got on the call is I said, you. I'm glad we can get on the call. I'm glad we can get on the call together today. Now they feel like they've had a chance to respond. Then.
I said, now, while I've had a chance to review all of these previous notes, which highlights, I've done my homework, I've done my due diligence. What do we use Smalltalk for? We use Smalltalk as an opportunity to develop trust. Well, I just show they can trust me a lot more than any other sales rep they've had, because I've actually done my homework, which they appreciate, because here's what happens. Now, I see that usually a lot of extroverts will come to the call and they'll wing things.
Matthew Pollard (15:55.411)
And because they wing things, they'll say, tell me a bit about your business. And they haven't done their research. Now, I'm one of those people that says, I'd love to tell you what questions you have and they fall apart. However, the average person says, okay, they've done their research. I'm now annoyed and frustrated. But now let me tell them about who I am, the origin story of why I started my business. It's 15 minutes that the sales rep doesn't want to sit through. I fixed with a minute and a half worth of research. And now we're on the call and they're appreciating it. So appreciation.
of doing due diligence, as sad as it sounds, is so foreign to most people getting on a sales call these days, that they develop so much credibility with the person that they're willing to then forgo small talk because they now feel like they trust you at a higher level. But the other statements are key. But a lot of that aesthetic, so I would like to take a step back, hear a little bit more about you, what you're struggling with. What I just said is tell me what I don't know in order to help you. So you can tell me anything you want. You just had a newborn.
and you struggle with time management, whatever it is. But this is the key and how I can be the most help to you in the time we have together today. And I put special focus on the word you. And what it does is when you hear, I've done all my research, but forget all that, tell me what I don't know. And then tell me how I can be the most help to you. What happens is you get this sigh of relief from the prospect because the prospect feels like they're going to be sitting with this hardcore salesperson.
And I've just taken it from confrontational sales to let me sit beside you and let's do this together. And it gives them this of release in everything because up until that point, they're going through the process of small talk because they're trying to foster trust. They also know you probably haven't done any research and they know you're going to hard close them and they want to know if they can feel comfortable with that. And I just said,
that I've done my research and I've come alongside you, I'm not gonna do the hard close. So all of a sudden you forgive the fact that we haven't done small talk because you're not worried about it at this point. And then I said, tell me what I don't know. So you get the chance to talk. Now the science then says that, now here's where people go wrong. They then explain what their product is. And I see people do this all the time. They're like, okay, great, thanks for sharing all that. So what I'm gonna do is tell you a little bit about my product and if we feel like it's a fit, we can have a further conversation. Horrible. What I do is I listen.
Matthew Pollard (18:08.251)
And by the way, don't listen to just listen. If they say like, then my, you know, my grandfather had a heart attack, empathize, say, I'm so sorry, continue, but do not interrupt unless there's a reason to empathize. But when you listen, when they get to the end, what I want you to do is remember that the science says if you give them exactly what they asked for, they will fight you on price. They will fight you on timeline and they won't be loyal. But if you can ask them a question or make a statement,
that implies that their problem is actually something else. Then you're gonna give them a paradigm shift and that paradigm shifts the science highlights that on top of the fact that they'll buy from you today, likely, they won't fight you on price, they'll also be incredibly loyal. So by giving them this paradigm shift, they're like, wow, I'm sitting with someone super professional. Now think about it in that continuum. I just said, I've done my research, come around and let me sit next to you in this, right? I've come prepared. That's what you want.
from somebody if they're gonna be charging you a higher hourly rate. Like the number of people that do small talk have just said half of this time is valuable, right? So if you wanna charge a higher price, you need to make sure that every single second that you're there with them, they feel like it was worth every dollar. So then when I give them this paradigm shift, they're like, wow, straight to business. And the moment that I told him what was wrong, he pinpointed that it wasn't even my issue, that it was a symptom of a greater cause. And then if you explain to them using logic what's wrong, then,
What will happen is they'll then disagree with you or they'll explain their situations different. But if you tell them a story, that's that logical brain short -circuited. So at that point, you're then speaking to their emotional brain that's just going to accept the moral. And that makes it super easy. And when I finish the story, I deliver a moral and I could go, if I had more time, I go into detail on the framework of the story, but I always deliver a moral because you cannot guarantee they'll take the same moral from you as you want them to take. So don't expect it to be implied, but more importantly,
I can say something like, so Brent, do you see that if you do this preliminary, then you don't need to worry so much about small talk. And then I'll say, does that make sense? My expectation is that you'll say yes. And I can say, great, at this stage, I can do one of three things. I can direct you to some great free content to continue down the path of rapid growth yourself. I can talk to you about my online program, or I can talk to you about what working with me on a short -term engagement looks like. Do you have a preference? What I just did is transition into a sale. And.
Matthew Pollard (20:30.491)
I am, they just said yes right before it. So they're far more likely to say, no, Matt, sell to me. Now, here's what's interesting. You're gonna get a couple of different types of buyers. You're going to get an emotional buyer that will just say, I'm sold. I've seen in the story, I need to work with you. I want what Alex has. I'm gonna get to the outcome. The logical buyer is instead going to say, talk to me about the free content. Why? Because now there are two types of people that will ask, the ones with no money and the logical buyer.
So I then spend about five to seven minutes logically giving them a whole bunch of free content, free items usually, maybe a template, an audio and an article to read that I then spend five to seven minutes explaining the value to them. And then I say at the end of that, and I will send all that through to you at the end of today's call. And the reason I do that is I get this, thank you so much. And I say, no problem. At this stage, I can leave it at that, or I can talk to you about my online program. Now, the reason I do that is because
The free people, the ones that have no money are either logical buyers or they're people that don't have any money. And I want the people that don't have any money to go away and stop filling up my pipeline with fake promises. The people that were logical buyers will say, no, actually tell me about your online program. Or you know what? I actually prefer to hear more about your one -on -one. Now, when I get to the end, what's really interesting is when you go through and there's a whole bunch of steps to then take them through the package in a way that stimulates purchasing behavior. And then.
get to the end and then take their payment. And then you say at the very end of the phone call, I'm so glad we get a chance to work together. I'm so looking forward to working with you. Is there any last questions you have for me at all? And the ones that want small talk that realize they just bought something without any small talk will cancel tomorrow unless you forget this step. But those people will then say, yeah, Matt, you said you were from North Carolina. Like, when did you move there? And then they'll introduce small talk into the end of the dialogue.
But what they're saying at that point is I have time, I hope you do too. I need to know a bit more about you so I don't wake up tomorrow and say, I just spent a lot of money with somebody I don't even know.
Brent Peterson (22:34.446)
Yeah. Okay. I have to say that I'm very much enjoying this conversation and I'm thinking through my head. Sometimes I am the logical buyer, but a lot of times I'm the emotional buyer if I'm sitting on the other side of the table. And the other thing that often leads me or makes me think about in these conversations, especially the hard sell conversations is sitting through a 90 minute meeting for a time share. And what a horrible format to buy or sell anything.
but okay, so I do want to, let's, let's, let's spend a couple more minutes unpacking a little bit of what you just said. And then I do kind of want to lean into entrepreneurs rally and entrepreneurs organization. so, I, I like what you said about kind of letting the customer, letting your, your, your client or your potential client lead into the small talk at the end. so when we got on in our green room, we had 10 minutes of small talk.
Do you let them go on? Like I guess in this case, would I be the buyer or the seller in this, in the inner interview? If we turn the table and this is a sales meeting, right? I know this is an interview, but we did do some small talk in the beginning and we did go, we did kind of go on. Do you just let me go on?
Matthew Pollard (23:53.969)
Yeah. So at the end of the day, when you're selling something, you have to be in charge. You have to manage the plan. When, when you're doing a podcast interview, it's a totally different situation, right? They know the first thing is people have different, some people want to get straight into the episode. Other people want to develop a little bit of a relationship. So there comes across a lot more rapport in the dialogue itself. And I think that's very helpful and useful. The truth is that I, I mean, I always feel, and this is something I feel like introverts are great at.
They, you do planning and preparation before, right? I never go into a sale without doing my research. That's why, and then I find the average introvert is like me, but they don't expressly say that upfront. So they don't get any benefit from saying, because they said it. when I, before I came onto this podcast interview, I checked out your show. I looked at the average length and I said, we had a, we've got an hour scheduled and everything I saw had 25 to 35 minute interviews. So I knew we had about a 25 minute buffer.
in there. in my head, I was like, you can report with me for about 20, 25 minutes before we get into the show. And then we're good to go. So if I didn't know that, then I would have got on and maybe I was anxious about getting into the content because I want to provide as much value or because I want to promote myself or whatever somebody's got in their head. The other thing is, and this is actually more about networking than it is about sales is, one of the things I, I have a presentation.
called the death of the elevator pitch. Cause I can't stand when I say I can't stand, I can't stand the way most people network. It's so transactional, right? They, they go in with that elevator pitch. You know, I do this for this group of people, even if, and it's like walking around and going, do you want to buy from me? No, what about you? What about you? What about you? I hate it. And the thing is though, I find a lot of people though, because they don't want to be like that. They do what I call aimless networking. What does it you do? Well, my day jobs this. one wants to talk to someone like that. If you don't have a structured conversation,
You just walk out with a whole bunch of business cards you've had very loose conversations with that you never call and they never call you. It is pointless. That's why most people think that networking doesn't work. It does work. just doing it wrong. And there is literally, I, you know, I don't believe that anybody cares about what it is that you do until they can see that you care. So I literally transformed networking from, do this to this, for this group of people, even if, to I love to see this, I hate to see this and I'm on a mission to do this. And more importantly, I help you introduce.
Matthew Pollard (26:10.961)
what it is you do, not by your functional skill. Because if I said I'm a sales trainer, people look at me like I'm one step above a scam artist. And if I say I'm in marketing, they're like, I need marketing. How much do you cost? Now we're talking about price. I just met them, right? None of that is positive. So I introduced what I call a unified message. But this comes back to what networking is actually about. And it's funny, every time I do this from stage, I will point somebody out and I'll ask them and they'll say, it's about getting new customers. And I'm like, is it?
Because for me, networking is about two other more important relationships. They're your ticket out of the hamster wheel, right? Because you have to go to networking events forever if all you're trying to do is get prospects. But if you go to networking rooms or go on podcast interviews with this mindset of I'm looking for momentum partners and champions, it will transform the way you network. See, a momentum partner is somebody that believes in your work and therefore is willing to open doors for you and share that work with other people.
It means I don't have to go networking because if Brent is my momentum partner, he's going to open doors for me. So I don't have to go networking. They're going to come as warm introductions. Now, I would never work with a momentum partner that I didn't feel strongly about what it is that they do so I can do the same for them. Not in this world of checks and balances because that's stressful for everyone. I want them to believe in me and when it makes sense, they'll do an introduction. When it makes sense for me, I'll do an introduction. And usually, as long as we're of the same level or whatever,
you know, as long as you're not worried about it balancing exactly, it doesn't matter. I've got momentum partners that have got nowhere near the level of my brand. other people that are huge brands. As a matter of fact, one of my momentum partners, I can guarantee about over a million dollars of business has come from the doors that they've opened for me. Now, then there's the marketplace of champions. The marketplace of champions are the people that endorse your work and give it credibility, and as such, allow you to put your prices up. So you've got momentum partners opening doors and champions giving it credibility.
That's the ticket to out of their hands to wheel higher prices and far more profit. So, I mean, if you think about the people that have endorsed my work, like if you think about networking, Ivan Meisner, the founder of BNI, the world's largest networking group has endorsed my work. Professors at Princeton and Harvard University have endorsed my work, right? Some of the biggest brands like the founder of billion dollar brand, Ugg Boots, has endorsed my work, right? So because of that, these people's credibility, I leverage in my books and on my work and that pushes my prices up.
Matthew Pollard (28:32.432)
So when I'm sitting on a podcast like this and I'm having a dialogue with someone like you, Brent, what I'm really thinking is, is this person a potential champion or are they a potential momentum partner? The last thing I could possibly care about is putting them in the prospect box, in which case I handle the conversation very differently. Now, does that mean rapport is required? No, it's actually more important that you can see that I'm passionate about making something different in the world that's greater than myself. Again, you care more about that. I care to help others.
then you care to hear about what it is that I do to try and help myself.
Brent Peterson (29:07.064)
Yeah, that's good. In American English, we have something about, tell us how you really feel. And I can tell that you're very passionate. We have a few minutes, so I do want to shift into the EO field. at the very end, let's talk about the rally a little bit. But I feel like if you're an entrepreneur's organization or you're in a group where you can't sell to your other members, right? So, I mean, there's networking groups and there are peer groups. EO is a peer group where you're not allowed to really sell.
you can sort of practice this story by, number one, you explain what you do. But the other thing that I do, is I ask them, how do they, what do they think about this product that I'd like to do? Or there's a new idea that I have and I'd explain it to them. And I find myself often in my explanation saying, don't worry, I'm not trying to sell you, but here's what I do. And how does this sound? Like, I feel like that's a good way.
to practice and especially in a group that we're in, we can't be selling or we shouldn't be selling to other people. give us, how do you sit on that and how do you feel about being in groups where you're not allowed to sell but sometimes in the storytelling, people wanna buy?
Matthew Pollard (30:26.567)
Yeah. Well, so firstly, I love groups where you're not allowed to sell. And when I say, and we all know with EO, you're not allowed to sell, but that doesn't mean people can't say, hey, I would love to utilize your services for this. And the truth is, think the best sales are, again, the best partnerships in EO are momentum partners, because they open doors for you. But by opening doors, you also have to understand the products and services that a person offers. And if it makes sense, why would you not use a trusted source?
The thing that I will say about EO and I have to admit, I only really discovered EO not long ago and I am furious and furious is probably a weak word compared to what I actually am that I didn't discover it sooner. And the, because for me, yes, I mean, it sounds great to say I've been responsible for five multimillion dollar success stories, but no one ever tells you how lonely that is. And when I had a whole bunch of problems when I was, when I was younger, I mean,
that before I had a multi -million dollar business, I worked at McDonald's for 200 and something dollars a week, right? Next thing I knew, I had wage bills that were more than what my father used to earn in a year. Like I just, I was terrified and I would try and talk about my problems and nobody would come, like no one would come with the answer. They would try and tell me how lucky I was to have these issues. And I was like, well, I don't feel lucky. I'm terrified, right? So for me, when I discovered EO, what I realized is two things. One is that,
It's an amazing to share a problem and know that somebody's not going to come to you with a pay me this money and I'll solve the problem for you. But, also not a here's what I think will work because EO has that. Here's what I can share things that worked for me in my business when I had this problem, not because I've been part of other groups that literally will say, here's what I think you should do. And I'm like, are you a six figure speaker at all? And they're like, no, no, I only I've got two gigs last year. How is that helpful? Right. So.
Right? Because the problems that you have, need to know you're talking like the light. And so I love the fact that people come pre -quarantined is the best way I can explain it. Right? I know I can trust them because of that. The other thing that I love about EO is that, you know, those people that are in EO, really they're as committed to your success as you are in a lot of ways, because they feel like you are the same for them. So for me, the thing, what I really liked about EO and what I was
Matthew Pollard (32:45.277)
what I discovered. And funnily enough, what's interesting is, and I actually do a lot to drive. As a matter of fact, I work with the regional to help bring more exposure to EO. For that reason, I do a lot of membership drives where, you know, my content always scores, you know, amazing. Well, I just got a perfect score from EO South Florida, but I do, I help with member drives because I'm trying to, you know, I mean, if I'm frustrated that nobody did what I am now doing when I was in Melbourne, Australia and lost and needing support.
And so for me, that's what I think about with EO is that in my belief, every entrepreneur needs somebody that they can trust to ask their opinion that has no skin in the game. That being said, when somebody does an experience share and you hear that they have experience and they also do this, it would be a miss of me to say, can you do that for me? But it's nice when I have to ask and somebody else isn't. And that's one of the things I love about Story because when you educate people on all the things they should do,
that in a lot of ways feels imposing. But when you share a story of someone that you worked with that you got them to that outcome or something that you did and you talk about the stress and the anxiety that was around it and the way you got through it, again, my logical mind is diffused, which is also the part of the brain that telling me all the reasons it's not going to work for me, which in my case might be me in my own way. And I can let my guard down at EO and actually get free advice.
But then sometimes I wanna say, well, that's nice free advice, but can you just do it for me? Because time's money. And that's the thing that I love about EO. It's your choice because they're not allowed to say, and I'll do it for you.
Brent Peterson (34:21.774)
Yeah, that's great feedback. we have the EO Rally that you're going to speak at next year. And I would like to say it's coming up, but it's not, it may have 2025. Yeah. So yeah, we might meet again and you'll be, you can do some pitch ones for me. so, you know, give us the, give us kind of what you talk about at these events and really why should somebody come to a rally like this?
Matthew Pollard (34:30.554)
It's a while away, yeah.
Matthew Pollard (34:46.737)
Yeah, well, so firstly, I actually think for those people that don't have that camaraderie and they don't know what EO is, it's a wonderful way to actually get to experience EO. mean, EO is a nonprofit, right? So it's just there to support small businesses really and entrepreneurs. And so I feel like it's a wonderful place to come and meet like -minded individuals because I can tell you, I speak at a lot of events and I'm...
I always say I'm honored to speak at most of, at most of the events I go to. I'm excited to go and speak in the EO event because it's just a different group of learners that they really are invested in their own success. So I would suggest don't come unless you're one of those people that's willing to roll up their sleeves and actually humble yourself by assuming that you don't have all the answers. But if you are one of those kinds of people, then you absolutely should, should come to this event because you know, one of the things that I also find is if you're, if you're just a good speaker.
EO members will eat you alive. If you just, the thing you've got to understand is these, you know, EO generally, and you know, there are EO -A members that have all made over 250, which is still serious. But the EO members, most of the EO members are all million plus business owners, which let's be honest, that doesn't mean profit, but they're still putting a lot of chips on the table and taking a lot of risk and making a lot of key decisions on a daily basis. They all have different challenges and they can all add value to each other.
It's very different to the average event where you end up sitting next to a whole bunch of people that have started their business or aspire to start their business or think they've got an amazing business because they're almost earning enough now to quit their $30 ,000 full -time job. Right. It's just a different group of individuals. Why you should come to the rally specifically though, is the thing I really like about this is it is all about rolling up your sleeves. The reason I agreed to do it is because the speakers that are coming are really
they're giving about an hour of content each, but it all has to be practical and applicable and applied while you're right there in the room. you know, the science, sorry, there's a lot of data to support around EO members when they come out of their current EO chapter and actually go and experience more of a event that brings everybody together. Cause a lot of EO groups are great. A lot of them are very different. So when you go to a national event like this, you get to mix and rub shoulders with a lot of other.
Matthew Pollard (37:03.097)
EO clicks, but also if you don't have a click of your own and you're kind of your business owner, like I was, where loneliness, think is the number one plague in entrepreneurship, then it's a wonderful place to come and break, break that divide. But the content I'm going to be covering is, and I know we spent a lot of time talking about sales in this one. I'm actually going to say in that the moment that I get on stage, if you start with sales, you've already lost because the truth is if you're going to a networking room and introducing yourself by your functional skill, then there you're already a commodity.
Right. They're already like, I don't need that. do need that. How much do you cost? And the thing that I have found, I mean, there's a reason I call myself the rapid growth guy, but the reason I do that is you in your brain, you can't put that in a box and disqualify it. And I'm going to be talking about how to create what I call the unified message, how to articulate the value of what you do in a way that's all about what you love to see, what you hate to see, not the features and function of what you do. And then how to.
in a lot of ways, side skip the hamster wheel of finding interested people, trying to set yourself apart, trying to make the sale, realistically that leaves you fighting on price. So what I find is that when people say that they have a sales problem, this is the paradigm shift that I give people when I say, well, I understand you think you're problem sales, but let me ask you, if you were to meet someone in a networking room and somebody asked you after maybe 20 minutes of, my gosh, I can't believe, Brent, I've been talking about myself for 20 minutes, what is it you do?
What is it you say? And you always hear an elevator pitch or, I don't use an elevator pitch. I just start asking them questions. that's great. Cause everybody loves to be interrogated the moment they meet you. Or they introduce their functional skill and, or they say, I run a, I do a few things. Okay. Well then you, you're saying you're not really interested in any of them. These are all horrible things. But what's interesting is it's not an event on networking. The goal is to help you understand how you implement these strategies.
to create rapid growth, especially in the face of uncertain economies by fixing these elements. Because here's the key, if you can't articulate the value of what you provide when somebody's politely listening to you in a face -to -face networking event for three to four minutes, have no chance in the fractions of a second that you get online. And that's why I always say, if you can't be the clearest in the networking room, you have to be the loudest. And it's the same when it comes to online. Like you see all these people taking photos of their dog or their donut just for something to say. It's like, look at me, I'm still here. They're being the loudest.
Matthew Pollard (39:21.021)
What I have found is when you have the right message and it's clear, you don't have to be the loudest and you can use technology, psychology and strategy to get your ideal clients to chase you from all over the world. And that comes down to being clearly articulate about what you're passionate about, what you love to see, what you hate to see, your own unified message and the stories that you share around the value that you provide in a way that is selfless, that comes across like you're educating and inspiring, but truthfully, it embeds you as the only logical choice. And that's what I'm gonna be covering at the event.
Brent Peterson (39:50.062)
That's good. My forum group just met and the founder of Lloyd's Ribs spoke to us. One thing he said, he asked everybody what they did and I explained what I did. Then he came back and said, the thing that he learned, and he's in his 80s, but in 50 some years of business is your message has to be instantly intuitive.
Meaning that when you say something, somebody has to understand what you do within 30 seconds. And I, I'm sometimes not great at explaining what I do, or I'm technical in my background. So I say, I say things too technically and it really made me go back and take a pause to think about what is it that I tell people that I do because it is more fun to tell for me. If you're at a developer's conference, you tell somebody in a technical way, I do this and this blah, blah, blah, blah. And you go on for five minutes about.
Linux and all your backgrounds and blah, blah. So I think the point that you're making is, is get across what you're doing in an authentic way. And in a way that doesn't lead to a whole bunch of doubts in people's heads.
Matthew Pollard (41:01.523)
Absolutely. mean, I can give you a very quick example. mean, I worked because you mentioned technology. So I worked with an MSP and MSPs really struggle with expressing what they do and they're in a very commoditized market these days. So everything's, you know, cost per computer or, you know, cost per hour. And so what we realized is we looked at all the cross -section of all the people that he worked with. What he really added value in to was companies that were trying to grow through acquisition.
And what we found is specifically in organizations like manufacturer or accounting, that's really big organizations that grow through acquisition, buying books and business, buying other firms to add the product set to their current product set and cross sell. What happens is you get a CEO that has a growth through acquisition mindset. They buy a firm or a business. And the next thing you know, they then tell their CTO because they've kept everything close to their chest for a really long period of time.
And now they're like, by the way, we need to do this. And like, well, I've just spent the last six months building a moat around our business so we can't get hacked. And you want me to now create a super highway between us and these other businesses. And everything falls apart. They also realize there's licensing issues. They realize there's a whole bunch of challenges in getting all the technology to communicate. They're using different systems for CRM and they frustrate customers. They lose customers. They've got staff that leave. They've got all this stress.
and they have disconnection issues and problems all over the place. So the CEO loses stakeholder support of growth through acquisition from all the stakeholders that are like, well, this is actually a lot more expensive than you promised us. So what we did is we rebranded this CTO into the acquisition lifeguard. And we then built this story around the fact that they need to bring the CTO in sooner, but the reason they don't is because they don't speak business, they speak tech.
So there needs to be a way of translating that information and also understanding the three steps of things that need to be done before the acquisition is made. That exploded their business. Other people, focused just, know, MSPs in another, in something like the trades. And, you know, a lot of times before the, before the tender, systems go down and that outage isn't a, it cost us a few hours. It's we didn't get the tender off. So we built a brand around the downtime assassin. And we then started.
Matthew Pollard (43:13.779)
creating all this structure around, love to see this, I hate to see this, it was far more authentic. So what I find is that a lot of people, when they are trying to articulate the value of what they provide, they try to explain what they do. They forget that there's a person on the other side that has a unique challenge. And usually that comes down to people's greatest fear. Well, if I talk individually to that person, I'm not gonna be talking individually to that person, right? The concept of niching and specialization is terrifying.
to the average person. But the truth is most people that are listening probably get all their clients from repeat business or referrals. They don't care if you put on your website you're now a dentist, right? They're not checking your website as much as you think. And if you were to put on the website you're a dentist, they're probably going to call you and say, hey, can you still handle my computers? They're not gonna care because they already know, and trust you. And what's funny is when I said I help introverted service -based business owners, which is my specialty.
I've been able to work with more product -based companies and extroverts since then, because the specialty is not working exclusively with, and because these introverts see me as the only logical choice, I end up speaking on stages where extroverts see me speak and they're like, you know what, I can never sell my business unless I build a sales system, so it's not about me, so can I hire you too? okay, right, the thing you've got to realize is having a message that speaks to a single person, not even a group, is powerful, and then knowing how to communicate who you are that doesn't put you in a box,
Speaking about your genuine care and then conveying stories, that is the key to rapid growth. What I find is most people just focus on their functional skill and then they go to associations, groups, organizations to learn how to all do things the same. And learning how to do things the same may be great for best practice in your technology business or your accounting business, but not for marketing and sales. So you need to go outside. So...
If you're used to working out conferences, going to conferences to learn to get better at your functional skill, I can tell you, you're probably already amazing at that. And the next event you should go to gets you outside the functional skill. And that's why I was suggesting the Entrepreneurship Rally, which I think is entrepreneursrally .org. Is that right, Brent, that they can go through to come to be the right best fit for them.
Brent Peterson (45:18.86)
That's correct. Yep. Entrepreneurs rally. Correct. Entrepreneursrally .org. Correct. So as I close out, I give everybody a chance to do a shameless plug about anything. Like Matthew, what would you like to plug today?
Matthew Pollard (45:25.597)
Perfect.
Matthew Pollard (45:34.833)
You know what? mean, I know that we talked about sales and we also talked about unified messaging a little today. So why don't we do this? mean, firstly, my publisher hates me when I say this. Like if you want to learn how to sell or if you're an introvert to believe that you can sell, you don't need to buy my book for that. Like go to the introvertsedge .com and you can download the first chapter. And if you do nothing more than grab what you currently say and put it into that seven step process that I outline, you'll firstly realize there's some things that don't fit. Throw that out. You shouldn't be saying that to customers.
Then you'll realize there's some things out of order, which is why you're getting asked about price way too soon. And then you'll realize there's some gaping holes, usually storytelling and asking great questions. If you just do that, you'll double your sales in the next 60 days. And again, you can get that at the introvert'sedge .com. If you want to create a unified message though, your version of the acquisition lifeguard, the downtime assassin, the rapid growth guy, in which case, which is what defines me. I have a template that you can get at matthewpollard .com forward slash growth. Now I would highly recommend.
Don't do it on your own. It's a great opportunity to do it with someone at the Entrepreneurs Rally, but I would also say that just get somebody else to listen to this podcast so they understand what it is. Not somebody from your industry or you'll both get stuck in your functional skill. Get somebody else outside your industry to listen to this. And then download this five -step template and it will help you work out what your specialization should be and to create your unified message that will really excite and inspire people to want to.
I did this at the National Freelance Conference a couple of years ago. And I can say at the end of the session, said, look, do me a favor, put your hand up if you now believe you've got a message that will excite and inspire people to want to know more. And you've identified a niche group of people that will pay you what you're worth. like 97 % of the room put their hands up, which sounds great. Until I said, look, just do me a favor, keep your hand up if this is the most time you spent actively working on your marketing since you started your business. And it was like 85 % of the room kept their hand up. The whole session was 90 minutes long. People love churning through content.
I call it busy procrastination. If you don't actually take action on this episode, then you may as well have gone and taken your kids to the circus, because you may as well have an enjoyable time. Like if you've listened to this episode, go to matthiopollard .com forward slash growth, download the template and actually go and work with somebody else to go through those steps and make it worthwhile. And then bring it to the entrepreneur rally and we'll work on it. You can come and ask me if you got it right.
Brent Peterson (47:50.242)
That's awesome. We are running out of time quickly. I do need to schedule your root canal for the next week. So when you can get in, I forgot to tell you that I'm also a dentist now. I haven't been trained or anything, but I'm willing to give you a root canal. So we could do that next week. Otherwise, people can find you online, MatthewPillar .com. I'll put all these in the show notes. You've got so many ways of connecting with you. I appreciate it.
Matthew Pollard (47:58.703)
thank you.
Matthew Pollard (48:14.663)
Yeah, absolutely.
Matthew Pollard (48:18.707)
Absolutely. And look, people can connect with me on LinkedIn as well. And they've got this cool, really new feature. Most people don't know this, but you can actually send audio notes with LinkedIn now. And if it's the best sales tool on the planet for a customer that's ghosted you, because if you can, you know, if you're already connected with them, which you should never go to a sale without connecting with them on LinkedIn, just saying, looking forward to our chat tomorrow. But then if they've ghosted you, you can send them an audio message and lead with empathy, not, Hey, why didn't you buy from me? Like, it's so unusual for me not to hear back from you. Is everything okay? Because people will have to respond with firstly,
Yes, everything's okay. Secondly, they'll respond because they want to know how you did that. And then thirdly, they'll actually tell you what's going on with the deal. But what I do a lot of the time is I say, you know, I had a rig speed of a sixth grader in lead high school. So reading challenges have always been an issue for me. So if you have a question, I always say, connect with me on LinkedIn. Once I've accepted the connection and don't follow me, press the connection request. Sometimes you have to click a few buttons to do that. Once I've accepted that connection, you can send me an audio note.
And if you send me an audio note with a question on, you know, going through that template, you're struggling or here's my barrier towards sales. will always send you back an audio note with an answer or something to break you out of that funk or the barrier that you have. And I'm always honored to support there. So that's a great place to, to have a dialogue with me if you need to.
Brent Peterson (49:31.724)
That's Last thing. The great thing about EO is you do leave with actionable things to do. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to record my story, not a sales pitch, but the story of how I tell people what I do or how maybe why they should buy, or I don't know. I'll think that through, but then I'm going to have you give me a, a little, a little, a critique of it. That'll be my action item.
Matthew Pollard (49:33.597)
Thanks
Matthew Pollard (49:56.999)
Yeah, sounds great. There you go. Well, I'm glad. And yes, that is one of the things I love about EOS. I know that I don't have to hope that people will apply the content because at the end of the day, this introvert, you know, speaking from stage is only something I do because I really want to have a huge impact. And I have to say now I love it, but I didn't when I started. so when I, the most important thing for me is that people take
something from it and actually apply it into what they do, which is why I love people asking me questions because it means they're actually taking action as opposed to just getting back to busy procrastination or getting better at their functional skills. So yes, I would welcome you sending through your story and again, same deal with everyone else. If you come up with a cool unified message or you have a barrier, feel free to ask a question because taking action is the only reason you should have lasted this long in this episode.
Brent Peterson (50:42.07)
Matthew Pollard has been such a great conversation. Thank you.
Matthew Pollard (50:45.491)
It's been my pleasure, thanks for having me on.