Good morning, my friend. Dr. Lee Warren here with you back for another episode
of the Spiritual Brain Surgery Podcast.
And we're going to have Tuesdays with Tata today. I'm very excited to share
with you a wonderful conversation I had yesterday with Tata.
We sat in the house, but on the banks of the frozen North Pat River.
It's very cold here right now, and I hope you're staying warm wherever you are.
But this conversation is a hard look at hard things. We talk about suffering.
Tata works us through some scriptures in Romans chapter 4 and Romans chapter 5 about suffering.
And of course, as we always do, our conversation was far and wide ranging.
And I just want to tell you that there's a lot that's been written and a lot
that's been discussed and a lot of people that talk about where God is when
we're suffering and when we're going through hard things.
In fact, a lot of people who become atheists or reject their faith claim that
the reason they do so is that they can't understand how a loving God could allow hard things to occur.
Some people said that if God's really all-powerful and all-knowing,
that he couldn't also be loving if he allowed suffering to happen.
So they use that as an excuse to not believe.
And I think that's a, it's kind of a cop-out. And if you ever want to take a
really hard look at the science and the theology and theodicy,
they call it, behind suffering, I would recommend, really strongly recommend
Lee Strobel's book, Is God Real?
He has an interview in there with Peter Kreeft and several other theologians,
and there's some really deep discussions about suffering.
And I think it would be worthwhile. I also recommend Paul David Tripp's book,
which was called Suffering. So if you want some things to read about this,
if you're going through something hard, Those are two good books that go into the depths of it.
And also, I would recommend my two books, I've Seen the End of You and Hope
is the First Dose, if you want to look at my story of what we've been through
in terms of losing a son and recovering from that and finding our feet and finding
our faith again. Those are four books for you.
I'll put the links in the show notes. But let's get into this conversation with
Tata today. We had a really great talk about hard things, and I think it'll
help you no matter what you're going through. Let's hit it right now.
But life gets hard. Does what we think we believe hold us up or does it crumble
under the weight of doubt?
I'm your host, Dr. Lee Warrant. I'm a brain surgeon, author,
and a person who's seen some stuff and wondered where God is in all this mess.
This is the Spiritual Brain Surgery Podcast where we'll take a hard look at
what we believe, why we believe it, and the neuroscience behind how our minds
and our brains can smash together with faith to help us become healthier,
feel better and be happier so we can find the hope to withstand anything life throws at us.
You've got questions, and we're going to need the hard work to find the answers.
But you can't change your life until you change your mind, and it's going to
take some spiritual brain surgery to get it done. So let's get after it.
Well, friend, we're back, and it is Sunday afternoon. It's five degrees on the
frozen North Platte River, Tata.
Yes, but it was zero when we got up this morning. It was. It was cold.
It's five degrees warmer, but it's still very cold.
We're watching the little finch eat out of the bird feeder, and he's got to be real cold. Yes, yes.
And there's one little bird up in the top of the tree. I don't know what he's
doing up there. I guess he's taking a nap. I don't know.
The river is frozen solid. I don't see any water moving. No, I don't either.
Got to be moving underneath, but boy, it's, uh, it's wintertime, Tata.
It is. If we're sitting on the riverbank on a Sunday afternoon,
it must be Tuesdays with Tata.
Apparently so, yes. Welcome back, friend. This is the over 100th episode of
Tuesdays with Tata. We've got quite a thing going here, Dad.
That is stunning. I can't even comprehend that.
That is what we've sat down and talked so many times. I need to make a greatest
hits episode sometime. And I'll go back and pull those out and see what happens.
We're going to sit and have a conversation this afternoon, as we always do,
friend. We try to just get Tata to take us somewhere into the Word of God and
get his unique perspective on some things.
And for today, Tata, what do you have in store for us?
Well, a verse that I've thought about many times, and I've come to the conclusion
that I really don't understand it.
Romans 5, chapter 5 and verse 3, and probably just read it would be helpful.
Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings because we know that suffering
produces perseverance and perseverance character and character hope.
I understand that process now.
I understand it probably more clear than I've ever understood it in my life,
but I still struggle with parts of it.
But to have a full understanding of it, if you have to go back and look and
see what the Apostle Paul is talking about in its entirety,
and you have to reach back into chapter four where we see that where he has
a discussion about Abraham being justified by faith. Yeah.
Because he believed. And one of the things about Abraham is in chapter four,
verse 18, against all hope, Abraham in hope,
believed and so became the father of many nations just as it had been said to
him that's powerful there is I guess hope.
I actually wrote about that, and hope is the first of that verse.
It says, against all hope, Abraham in hope believed.
So basically, he just never quit believing in hope itself. That's right.
That's amazing. That's right. And he believed what God told him. Yeah.
Even though he was an old man, he believed that he was going to have a child,
and he would be the father of many nations.
That's right. And his lineage would produce a great people, and it did. That's right.
Some of it took place in his own lifetime, and other parts of it did not.
But the other part of that is that the faith that Abraham had,
and the writer was talking about Abraham, but he was talking about us as well.
He's right. Because that righteousness, his faith was committed to him as righteousness.
And so we believe also that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. We believe in God.
And we believe that Jesus was raised from the dead, and we believe that God
raised him from the dead. So we have hope of the resurrection.
We have hope of being reunited with God and Jesus Christ, our brother.
But so all of that, and then so if you look at the first verse of chapter 5,
after all that discussion about Abraham and his faith being counted as righteousness,
and that our faith being counted as righteousness for us as well.
In chapter 5, verse 1, it says, Therefore, why is that therefore, therefore?
Since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our
Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith.
Into the grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.
Not only so, after all of this, after all of this, being justified by our faith
and being counted as righteousness for us.
And we stand in our faith and we stand in the hope that we have,
that we will see Jesus Christ and we will see God again.
And we will just like, and I say that, I don't say that.
Uh, flippantly, because I'm reminded of a story that my wife,
Patty, told about to her class.
She taught third grade children.
And a little family, I think I've told this story before, but a family had a
newborn and a newborn child in the family.
And the little boy, which was a little older, kept wondering,
wanted to go in and spend some time with him himself.
And his mother wouldn't let him do it. And finally, she relented,
but she stood at the door.
And the little boy went to the crib and said, Hurry, tell me what God looks
like before you forget. Oh, wow.
So, you see, somewhere in there, that's not flippant thinking. That's not quite.
Because there is a process there that we have seen him before. Okay.
Children have seen him. Hmm.
And we shouldn't count that as just ordinary.
I don't think we should place a great deal open that. But I think we should consider that.
And that we should not forget that. But the part that gets me sometimes in verse
3, not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings.
And so when you stop and think about suffering and you think about the trauma
that we experience sometimes in our lives, And the first part of it is not,
it's not, it's not, I don't know what it is. It's hard to describe what it is.
But you almost want to fall on your face because you feel so,
you feel helpless for part of it.
But understanding and not forgetting that we have hope in all of that.
And the perseverance that comes through suffering, I've always wondered about that as well.
I feel, you have to define that. What does perseverance look like?
Well, being strong, bully your way through it.
I don't know that that's the exact actual observation of it,
but it's being strong in the face of it. and not willing to give up.
It's hard. It's hard to do.
But because we know that the perseverance, when you feel strong in God,
in the midst of your suffering, that it will build some character. That's right.
It will make you stronger, and it will strengthen your hope.
That's right. And that's a very contrary idea to what the culture and the world
and even so-called experts, some therapists and psychiatrists and neuroscientists
will say, well, your trauma is overwhelming.
Your trauma is too big for you. Your trauma is too much.
It stores up in your body and all these things.
What the truth is, the Bible is telling us and neuroscience,
real neuroscience is telling us too.
You actually are designed in such a way that when you suffer and continue to
move forward, even when you don't want to.
The parts of your brain that are related to things like grit and willpower,
they get stronger when you go through hard things and you keep going.
And so he's really telling us not only a thing that's true as an observation
of how humans flourish, but it's true on a scientific level, too.
Like, not only can you boast in your hope in the glory of God,
but also in the fact that when you suffer, God's going to reward you in that
suffering by helping you be more prepared for future suffering.
That's right. Because you have a choice when you face it. That's right.
You have a choice when you're even in the middle of it. You can sit down and not move.
You can just give up. That's right. Or you can say, I have to persevere,
and that's what happens. That's right.
Through that suffering, we have hope in our suffering that we will have perseverance,
which will build on our character, and that will give us hope.
That's right. So, that strength that comes through that,
one of the things that I can say completely about myself is that I feel different
now than I've ever felt in my life.
I mean, I have peace that I can't describe.
And as I look back at it, and I've talked to other people about it.
Shouldn't even be. I mean, just for context, if the listener that may be new
around here, I mean, Tata's speaking about having come to peace. You're 86, right, Dan?
86, a man who lost his wife, two of his children, and a grandson,
and yet you're at peace in your life.
And how would you say you got to that place in your life where you had peace
in spite of such hard circumstances?
Well, and I think, well, I mentioned, we talked about this once before,
but early on in my life, I had a great deal of knowledge about God, but I didn't know him.
I think I came to know him through all of this.
Now, that's interesting. There's a difference between knowing about someone and knowing someone.
Yes, that's right. That's right. Because then you understand completely what he says.
Well, that's not accurate either, but you understand more fully what he says. That's right.
Have a greater understanding of the promises that he makes, the covenants that he's made.
And looking at it and contrasting it to what happened early on with the Israelites.
And you understand that from one generation to the next generation,
they just forgot. That's right. They forgot.
And if they didn't forget, they really didn't know.
They didn't understand what had happened to their ancestors.
And maybe they didn't even care. But why was it so easy for them to accept other gods?
The worship of the people around them. Because they didn't really know their real father.
They didn't have a heart relationship with them. That's correct.
And so knowing him, and I'm trying to think if I even, like I said,
I had a lot of knowledge about him and about God himself.
And I don't know that that maybe it bordered or touched on belief. I don't know.
I can't address that. But finally it did.
I believe it totally.
There's not one reservation that I have about. Now, do I hear from Satan who
says, that really can't be true?
Yes, I hear from him. But we have an example for that. That's right.
When our Lord was in the wilderness being tempted, he just told Satan to get behind me.
Quoted scripture to him. That's right. And in the vernacular of the street today,
in the vernacular of the young people, they may say, get out of my face.
Yeah. I don't know if they say that anymore.
But that's what they meant. That's right. Get away from me.
So somewhere in there,
and it's hard to describe Lee I can't I can't put my arms around it,
because when I look into it sometimes I see it very clearly and other times
it just goes away it vaporizes but I can distinctly remember.
The moment that it happened, the events happened.
Wow. And I can remember the shock and the unbelief.
You know, it's like, just like I told God himself, I said, not in my house.
And then somewhere you have to admit to yourself that, yes, it can happen in your house.
That's right. And it does happen. And friends, we're talking to you,
and this is very raw and very, I guess it's very powerful to us,
and we pray that it is to you as well, and we know that so many of you are struggling
in hard places right now.
And I want to say to you, just give up. Don't fight it anymore.
Just call out to God. Ask him for help.
That's what I want. Don't give up hope. Give up the fight against God being
there when you need him. That's right.
Against the idea that you have to do it on your own. Against the idea that it's
impossible. That's right. Give up that struggle.
Because I think this little journey that Paul describes in verse 3 and 4,
again, we're in Romans 5 when he says,
suffering we know that suffering produces perseverance perseverance produces
character the character produces hope that sounds like a a journey of sorts it's a journey from,
suffering which could either it could either define you as we've said before
or could refine you in some way it could it could crush you or it could somehow
energize you it could it could doom you or it could in some ways redeem you
that's what he's saying that there's a there's a journey,
it was a pathway towards transformation in our lives.
And if you want to become the kind of person that Tata just described,
from going from somebody who knows a lot of facts about God,
or maybe has a lot of head knowledge about God, to somebody who actually knows God.
Then the journey that Tata had to take, the journey that I had to take,
the journey that Brad and Jill Sullivan had to take, the journey that any bereaved
parent or somebody who's lost a spouse or has lost a child or has gone through
some other massive thing, has to take,
is going to include stops along the way through cities you don't want to visit,
suffering and pain and, as Paul says, then character and perseverance.
You don't want either one of them. You don't want perseverance built out of
suffering, or neither do you want character that's built out of it.
Out of perseverance, that's right.
You don't want it. But what God's saying here is there's no way to be a truly
hopeful person unless your hope is built on the fact that you're standing on
ground of which you are sure.
Once you know that if your legs get sweeped out from under you,
you can plant your feet back on that ground and it will hold you. That's right.
And you can't know that until you go through something hard enough to sweep
your feet out from under you. That's right.
You can think it. That's right. Until you're facedown, you won't know.
That's right. You don't really know what you're capable of. That's right.
And you don't know what ability that you have to hang on.
And we've talked about it before.
I guess, is it Jeremiah that talks about the furnace of suffering?
It's Isaiah. Isaiah. Mm-hmm.
Have you ever thought about that, the furnace of suffering? I've been in it.
It's Isaiah 48, 10. So God says to Isaiah, see, I have refined you,
but not in the way that silver is refined.
I have refined you in the furnace of suffering.
And that's the idea that God's going to say to you, there are some things in
your life. They might be ideas.
Like you said, they might be false knowledge sets that you think you have. It might be behaviors.
It might be relationships. It's just that there's some things in your life that
God says need to be refined out of you. That's right.
And the process of refining is not a pleasant process if you're the silver.
If you're the one that's got to get dropped in the fire and burned until they
can scrape all the difficult stuff off of you or the stuff that doesn't belong
there, the impurities out of you, that's not going to be a fun process.
But then what happens is you come out of it and you're refined and you're pure.
And I noticed something, and I think you probably did too, but Lisa and I have
talked about this many times.
After we lost Mitch, we went through that process of, you know,
grieving and wondering and doubting and cursing God and all those things that you do.
But at some point, we came to realize that things that we had felt to be important
before, many of them felt completely just superficial and ridiculous at the point.
Completely unimportant and of no value. and other things that we had thought
were of little value became critically important.
And some of those things became like the only stuff that matters in your life
now is time with those you love, what you know to be true about God,
those things that are true.
And that's why we're now people who have little taste for superficial relationships. Yes.
Very little taste for spending four hours at a party where everybody chit chats.
We have very little taste for that now. We have a lot of taste for a conversation
like this one that's going to have meat and substance and is going to move the
needle on your beliefs and your heart.
And I think that's a necessary process of that refinement of some of the things
that you spend a lot of time on in your life.
Some of the things that you spill, as Susie Larson says, your time,
treasure, and talent on are not important.
And you don't know they're not important until you suffer and God refines you.
And then that stuff is called away from your life, then you see it very clearly
that this is what I'm here on this planet to do. This is what's important to them.
And that's not to say that there wasn't a point before where we thought we knew,
because we did. We thought we knew.
All right. I can, and we've talked about this too, but I've held people's hands,
many people's hands, that took their last breath. Yep. Oh.
And it's, uh...
And it's different, though, when it's in your house, when that person belongs
to you. It is. It's very different.
And you don't really know where you are in your relationship with God himself until that occurs.
That's right. Then you will know then.
You will know assuredly, or you will doubt completely. That's right.
There's no middle ground. We'll try. And I think that probably that God made us that way.
I think, and if you look at all the people that God had anything to do with,
he built them up and then he locked them down.
We'll try. To see if they would get back up on their own. We'll try.
Or if they would reach out to him for help to get back up. That's right.
Now I do want to say just in case you're if you're in the early stage of one
of these massive things if you're in the early stage of a grieving process that that that.
Knowledge for certain that God is there and will be there for you,
it won't feel that way immediately.
We're not saying that as soon as you enter the trial, you immediately have these
clear eyes and you can see. No.
Because you don't. And the grief process, it's normal and natural for you to
doubt and for you to be scared and for you to say, why God? And all those things, that stuff is normal.
What we're saying is there's going to come a time as this process evolves where
you recognize the only thing you have to hold on to is that trust in God.
That's when you'll see it very clearly because all the promises,
this happened to me, the promises that he made that I'd never really spent two
seconds thinking about, like the Lord will be close to the brokenhearted, Psalm 34, 18.
That turned out to be true. And it turned out to be vital to my being able to
survive having lost my son. Like, God was close when I was brokenhearted.
He showed up in the form of his servants that he sent to ring the doorbell,
and there was Rob Brooks on the porch with food.
Or the neighbors who brought over, you know, toilet paper and water bottles
for three weeks while we were all grieving.
And things like that, that was God showing up and ministering to us when we were brokenhearted.
You know, all the people who got on airplanes and came to Auburn,
Alabama to be there with us, that was God being close to the brokenhearted.
He kept that promise, and I had never given it two seconds worth of thought before.
But when it came true, then you say, okay, God kept that promise,
and you start running this little checklist of promise after promise after promise,
and you won't find one that he doesn't keep.
That's when you know that your feet are on solid ground again.
And the other side of it is that sometimes it takes place without your complete knowledge of it.
Yeah. It just happens because you have a firm foundation anyway.
And if you don't, if you don't have something to hold on to.
There's very little hope for you. That's right.
You have to have, there has to be a firm foundation.
In fact, we used to sing an old song about that. Yeah. The firm foundation. That's right, we did.
And I think that foundation feels like, I'm going to say feels like it's not
firm right at first when you're going through something hard,
but it turns out to be firm.
It turns out that, as Mark Rogap said, Mark Rogap wrote, there's a floor to
your suffering that Jesus paid for with his blood.
There's only so far you can fall if you have put your trust in him.
Because it's like some of those videos you see of the kids in the swimming pool
and they're flailing about. They're trying to learn how to swim.
And they're crying. They're scared. And then their mom or their dad finally
shows them. All you have to do is put your feet down and you can just stand up.
The water's not deep enough for you to be in trouble here. But it feels like you're drowning.
And that's kind of what this process feels like. Yeah. And then God says,
wait, hey, calm down. Put your feet down.
And you can stand up. And the bottom's going to hold. Yeah.
And it's going to be okay. And that's what I think this is getting at.
I think Paul's saying, hey, suffering produces...
Perseverance perseverance meaning you can you
can keep on going because now
you've you've seen that you can go through something hard and it's not actually
going to kill you you can keep on going and then and then
perseverance produces character you become this kind of
person who when you're in that deep that water again you remember to put your
feet down but as it becomes a character trait that you have okay here we go
again this is going to get hard but we're going to stand up in it And then that
gives you hope that whatever comes along next, we're going to be able to do this again.
Yeah, but also think about this, and I know you have, but when we survive that
and we reach out to someone that's going through the same kind of stuff. That's right.
And we hold onto their hand. And maybe that's all they need. That's right.
It becomes a buddy system and we're the ones saying, hey, put your feet down.
It's okay. You're not going to drown.
It's going to be okay. That's right. That's right.
And it is so profound, and I can remember early on when Patty was sick,
and I recounted everything.
I said, God, don't you remember all this stuff that I did for you?
And I said, wait a minute. Of course you do. Yeah.
Why do I need to remind you? That's right. Remind me. Help me.
And maybe that was maybe that's the part of it that escaped me in this whole
process I don't know when you spend a lot of time reaching out to help people,
maybe you forget something or you lose the ability to use the tools that you have,
but then again,
I don't know. I don't know. I said I used, maybe I said the word lose,
and I don't know if that's the correct word or not, but what we do with the
baby, we lose our grasp. That's right.
We can't hold on ourselves.
And that in itself is clearer to me that, you know, I can't do this by myself. That's right.
And what was so hard about that was so much of it I had to do by myself early on.
But I still struggle with that verse. I guess I always will.
But I mean, I understand.
But I don't know that I have a full, full understanding of it.
And I've looked at it in my own soul, in my own life, and I've looked at it
through my own eyes, trying to understand that.
But I haven't given up the hope. I have the hope.
But here again, for me, where I've come to is where I can understand,
like Job said. Job said, I know.
I know my Redeemer lives. That's right. I do too. Yeah.
We don't doubt it anymore. No. Never did.
I don't know if I really never thought it through or really ever saw the need.
But one of the things that I've come to know, I've come to understand,
and I can say it unequivocally, I know. That's right.
And I can't tell you how many times I've read John, the three Gospels,
that he wanted us to know who we were and to know that we were saved. Yeah.
He wanted to know. And I have read that through so many times,
and it just makes me smile.
Yeah. Makes me happy. That's right.
So, the suffering that we have in this life, and I began to understand what
Paul meant that when he said it's just momentary, it's just minuscule.
There's nothing to it compared to the glory that we're looking at,
that we're looking forward to having. That's right.
Is light and momentary suffering. Our light and... Our light and...
And that's why I'm so thankful to be able to read him.
I'm beginning to understand more so. Even the Apostle Peter had difficulty understanding
some of the things that he said. Then Paul said that. Yeah, he said that.
But he had such a profound understanding, and I think it came from knowledge.
I think he was the man that he talked about.
He didn't know whether he was in the body or in the spirit, went to the third
heaven. Yeah, he's definitely talking about himself.
Well, what do you think? What's the take-home message here? So somebody out
there is in that suffering process right now.
There's no doubt somebody listening to this is in the thick of it.
What's the message that you have for that to listen to this? Well, stop.
Stop and be grateful, be thankful. And I'm not saying that you can say right
now, I'm thankful for the suffering.
I don't think we can ever, I don't know if we can ever say that. That's right.
But I can say that you can be thankful for what it's done for you.
It's helped you have a better understanding of where you are and who you are. That's right.
And being one of God's children doesn't prevent us from walking into the fire
or touching the hot stove.
But it happens. That's right. But he's there for us.
And he always will be. That's right. And all he ever, all he really wants is to have us home.
And that's why he said Jesus is his only son. And Jesus did two things.
He came here to become like us.
That's right. So we could become like him. That's right.
So in those terms, don't. And the other part of it is, don't give up. Don't give up. And try.
No, surrender. No, wave the white flag.
And I know, I know some people that, I can't even comprehend how they have survived so much.
What they've been through, yeah. But they did.
Yeah. Well, our hearts are, as we speak, with our brothers and sisters in California,
they're going through great suffering of losing their homes and fires.
And our friend Tommy Walker, who's probably listening to this show,
they live in Los Angeles in the Christian Assembly Church there.
The 30 members of their, 30 families in their church lost their homes in that fire.
And so we feel you, we're with you in your suffering.
But we also know that God is going to be faithful. He's going to be close to
you when you're brokenhearted.
He's going to be close to you as he builds you and refines you in this literal
fire that you're going through. Yeah.
So the thought is two things.
Don't give up and always have hope. That's right.
Always have hope. Well, Tata, before we go today, would you say a word of prayer?
And remember our brothers and sisters there in California as well? Yes.
Oh, Father, we come to you, and we seek your blessing of grace and mercy and peace.
And, Father, we rely on you. We have hope in you. And, Father,
we thank you for being mindful of us.
And, Father, we pray it should be mindful of those people in California that
have lost everything, Father.
It's hard for me to understand how to be without like that.
Lose everything that you have. And, Father, we just ask you to bless them and
give them peace, Father, in the midst of their suffering.
And, Father, help them to rely on you and help us to be mindful of them, Father.
We keep them in our prayers and we keep them in our thoughts and our consideration.
But, Father, we know that only you can do the work.
So, Father, we ask you in Jesus' name that you be mindful of them,
that you bless them, that you keep them safe.
And Father, we ask you to bless us and direct our steps and keep us in your hands.
And we ask all of this in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.
Thank you, Ty Ty. If we're going to be the kind of people who know that we can
land on hope after going through suffering, then when should we start?
Start today. We start today.
Hey, thanks for listening. podcast is brought to you by my brand new book, Hope is the First Dose.
It's a treatment plan for recovering from trauma, tragedy, and other massive things.
It's available everywhere books are sold, and I narrated the audiobooks.
Hey, the theme music for the show is Get Up by my friend Tommy Walker,
available for free at TommyWalkerMinistries.org.
They are supplying worship resources for worshipers all over the world to worship
the Most High God, and if you're interested and learning more,
check out TommyWalkerMinistries.org and go to my website and sign up for the newsletter,
Self-Brain Surgery, every Sunday since 2014, helping people in all 50 states
and 60-plus countries around the world.
I'm Dr. Lee Warrant, and I'll talk to you soon. Remember, you can't change your
life until you change your mind. And the good news is, you can start today.
Thank you.