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Emily Goodson is a writer, entrepreneur and workplace culture consultant. She joined us at our 2023 Spring Seminar and shared how her disability helped her uncover bias and deficiencies in many aspects of day-to-day life and led to her finding her own voice, sharing important ways you can help design inclusive journeys for all your stakeholders.
Creators & Guests
What is The New CCO?
The New CCO podcast from Page tells stories that explore the evolution of the CCO. From culture change to digital transformation to corporate purpose, we focus on the issues that matter to today's communications leaders.
Page is the world’s premier membership organization for chief communications officers, PR agency CEOs and educators who seek to enrich the profession and improve corporate reputation management.
Eliot: In the last few years, companies - and their CEOs - have been taking strong stands on a number of controversial societal issues. Topics that would have been third rail material have become opportunities to express core values.
It’s not as if doing so has gotten less risky. Brands can suffer many kinds of backlash from stakeholders who hold different views. And more recently, companies have been a bit more reticent to speak out - or at least are doing more to ensure that the issues they speak on are material to the business.
Perhaps no case exemplifies these risks and trade-offs more than the recent - and ongoing - scuffle between Disney and Florida governor - and presidential candidate - Ron DeSantis.
In this episode, we go inside that story, led by three students from Texas Christian University whose case study on it won our annual student case study competition.
I’m Eliot Mizrachi, and this is the New CCO.
Maya Estrada: (01:12)
Um, I'm Maya Estrada. I am a recent graduate of Texas Christian University where I received my bachelor's degree in strategic communications and writing.
Ayisha Dgibo: (01:37)
my name is Aisha Gibo. I just received my Bachelor's of Science in strategic communication from TCU in May.
Brionne Fischer: (01:54)
I'm Brianne Fisher from Plano, Texas. I'm a current graduate student and teaching assistant at Texas Christian University, and I'm getting my Masters of Science in strategic Communication.
Eliot Mizrachi: (02:20)
did you all grow up watching Disney movies?
Brionne Fischer: (02:24)
Yes.
Eliot Mizrachi: (02:25)
You did? Do you have a favorite?
Brionne Fischer: (02:28)
Oh, that's hard. .
Maya Estrada: (02:30)
My favorite is Tangled and Rapunzel's my favorite Princess .
Ayisha Dgibo: (02:34)
It does. I like the Princess and the Frog. That was a good movie.
Brionne Fischer: (02:39)
I like the Little Mermaid, so I'm super excited to see the new movie coming out.
Eliot Mizrachi: (02:44)
Have you been to Disney World or Disneyland?
Maya Estrada: (02:55)
I've been to both, and the last time I went to Disney World was last week, .
Eliot Mizrachi: (03:00)
Oh, wow. So really relevant experience for this conversation.
Maya Estrada: (03:03)
, yes.
Eliot Mizrachi: (03:21)
Um, so tell me, uh, why was it like, how did you arrive at the decision to study this particular case?
Maya Estrada: (03:59)
after looking through things that were relevant and that were happening and that were really important in the communications field, we decided that talking about Disney would be really good because we were all Disney fans and we found that there was a lot to talk about and there was a lot to research, and we just thought that it was very relevant to, um, communications and it was important to see how companies could use this in the future and how they would handle, um, social, um, situations like this, especially with like government bodies involved.
Eliot: I asked the students to lay out the story, which begins with the proposal of a new law in Florida.
Maya Estrada: (07:09)
So the law is called the Parental Rights and Education Act like, uh, Brion said, but specifically they want to prohibit the discussion or instruction of gender identity or sexual orientation in classes through can kindergarten through third grade.
Brionne Fischer: (06:11)
this bill builds on the parents' Bill of Rights, which was signed into Florida law in 2021. Um, and it's part of Governor DeSantis year of the parent, which was focusing on protecting parental rights and education.
Eliot: The law was proposed in January of 2022, was signed into law by DeSantis that March, and took effect in July, meaning it’s now been in place for a year.
At the risk of getting political, there’s some useful context to add here. Ron DeSantis is running for the Republican nomination for president. Though this confrontation with Disney began before he declared his candidacy, he’s focused his campaign on these kinds of so-called “culture war” issues that strike a nerve with his conservative voting base. Many of his supporters feel DeSantis is taking on what they regard as “woke” corporations. And, in Florida, if you’re hunting big game, there’s none bigger than Disney - the state’s largest employer.
I asked Maya what the public reaction has been to the legislation.
Maya Estrada: (08:43)
Many proponents of the bill, especially in Florida, were saying that it would, like, they didn't want the Florida school system to indoctrinate their children with talk of gender identity and sexual orientation. That's one way they were looking at it. Um, but I think people who are against the bill see this as more harmful if a student is starting to question gender identity or sexual orientation or is just maybe curious about that, but maybe at home that isn't really allowed. Now, having that fully disclosed to a parent might be a dangerous situation. It might lead to, um, a really potentially, um, harmful situation to the child now that they can no longer like ask these questions at school and will now have all their information and all their, um, uh, we'll have everything revolving their physical and mental wellbeing and the things that they're wondering at school will now be disclosed to their parent. So I think for many people it's like a good thing cuz they have more control over what their students and what their kids are learning in school. But at the same time, for some students that could be potentially dangerous because now they don't have a safe space to say, I'm thinking these things I like need help, um, and I can't get help at home.
Eliot: There are tricky politics here. The crowd worried about indoctrination believes there’s a liberal agenda to normalize progressive ideas about sexuality and gender. At the other end of the spectrum are those who believe that these kinds of laws, which imply, at the very least, that anything but heterosexuality or binary gender identities are outside of the norm, further entrench biases against those who identify as anything else.
Knowing the politics and the stakes, Disney soon found itself in the midst of the debate.
Brionne Fischer: (10:47)
I think with Disney being in Florida, um, people started to look to big companies to take a stance, um, specifically CEOs. And since Disney is a leader in the entertainment and theme park industry, I think a lot of other companies were also looking at the way that Disney was going to respond to this. Um, because as I said earlier, this was the first time that there was a law like this, so it was kind of new to everyone. And so, um, everyone was just kind of looking at the big guys to make a stance first.
Brionne Fischer: (17:36)
Disney is the largest private employer in the state of Florida, and because of that they have a larger community of L G B T Q employees. Um, and it was the employees that got the attention on Disney and, um, by making their videos go viral and their walkouts at the parks. Um, so Universal employees didn't respond in the same way, which we think might be why they remained under the radar.
Brionne Fischer: (18:12)
another reason that we think could, could just be that Disney has a massive presence in recognition. So when Disney does something, it's noticed around the world and Disney kind of sets the gold standard for many things. So people naturally look to Disney in situations like this instead of the other companies.
Eliot: While its size and stature give it special significance, another relevant point is that Disney prides itself - pun intended - on celebrating diversity and inclusion.
Brionne Fischer: (11:41)
one of their responsibility initiatives is the world of belonging, which, um, celebrates an inclusive and respectful world. So I know that's one of their core values. Um, and so I think people were expecting them to act on those core values.
EM: And as CCOs know all too well, when companies fail to act in accordance with their values, they tend to hear about it - often, and loudly, from employees. I asked Brionne what employees were saying and doing at Disney.
Brionne Fischer: (13:06)
first of all, they wrote a letter to the c e o, um, asking them, asking if Disney would make a public stance. Um, there were also walkouts in both Disney World and Disneyland by the employees. And then there were also several YouTube videos, um, from employees that went viral and on social media. Um, I think on Twitter, the hashtag Disney do better was trending. So, um, there were a lot of different ways that employees were speaking out, um, and I think that's what really pushed Disney to eventually make a response.
EM: Maya picks up the story…
Maya Estrada: (13:53)
at first they sent a letter to employees keeping communications internal and tried to tell the employees were against the bill, but we're not gonna make a public statement, but we just want you all to know that this is where we stand. Um, but this wasn't enough because there was still backlash from employees and from, um, the public and other stakeholders trying to get Disney to publicly, uh, oppose the bill and to publicly make a statement and say, we are against this, we're going with our core values. Um, so then after the internal memo was released, there was still, um, much backlash of people trying to get Disney to talk about it and to, um, take a stance on the bill. However, eventually, once the bill was already passed, Disney then made a public statement opposing the bill saying that they thought that it was better to work on both sides of the aisle behind the scenes to try to get this bill, um, like dismissed or try to not get it passed.
EM: Ayisha pulled up a copy of that statement and started reading…
Ayisha Dgibo: (20:23)
Florida HB 1557, also known as a don't say gay bill should never have passed and should never have been signed into law. Our goal as a company is for the law to be repealed by the legislature or struck down in the courts, and we remain committed to supporting the national and state organizations working to achieve that. We are dedicated to standing up for the rights and safety of LGBTQ plus members of the Disney family, as well as LGBTQ plus ME community and Florida and across the country.
Maya Estrada: (15:01)
but at that point it was kind of after facing all this employee backlash, all the stakeholder backlash and facing backlash from the government, um, having that public statement be so late was a little bit hindering to the public relations efforts that they were trying to do and was definitely too late for employees and stakeholders who expected more, um, from Disney showing their core values and showing, um, so support for this issue.
Brionne Fischer: (15:43)
I think from our timeline, one of the things that stood out was that they had several, you know, opportunities to respond to the stakeholders, um, and to not be silent and they continually chose to be silent. Um, and it wasn't until, um, I believe the day before they spoke out, um, that an article came out about the political contributions that Disney was making. Um, and so I don't know if that has anything to do with, um, their response, but it is interesting that, um, it happened to be the next day that they finally opposed the bill. Um, maybe that was just the last straw or maybe that was the plan, I don't know. But we found that very interesting when putting our timeline together.
Maya Estrada: (22:00)
I think that even though it was like too little, too late, it was better to at least say something than just continue to let the problem get worse. Especially now that the bill had passed and it had come out that there had been support from the company for the politicians that are signing this bill into law. So I think the thinking behind it was, we've had all of this backlash and we have tried our best to work behind the aisle. Whatever steps those were, whatever efforts they made to shut down the bill from behind the scenes, uh, the, those didn't work. So now, uh, the bill has passed. We should just say something. Um, I agree that it's not the, if I was, um, an employee who had been asking the company to please say something, especially because I myself am like part of that community, and I would really love to hear them oppose the bill knowing that they had already sent an internal memo saying that they opposed the bill, but for whatever reason wouldn't say it publicly. I think seeing this would just feel kind of like a let down.
EM: And because words are meaningless without action, Disney also put some money on the table.
Brionne Fischer: (24:24)
they pledged to donate 5 million, um, to various L G B T Q advocacy groups. Um, and I believe one of them, initially they declined the donation because they felt that the, um, the statement was not very sincere. And so it wasn't until Disney continued to take more meaningful action, um, and support the L G B T Q community more that, um, finally the donation was accepted.
EM: It’s at this point that the political battle really heats up. Disney is now on record opposing legislation that the governor and other conservatives support. It’s in exactly the position it sought to avoid by remaining silent in the first place. Then comes the retribution.
Generally speaking, politicians will criticize companies for this or that. In a campaign, that’s especially valuable because it draws attention and presents an image of a fighter willing to take on corporate interests.
It’s much more rare that an elected official will use their powers to exact some kind of consequence or penalty on a company that expresses an opposing point of view. But that’s exactly what DeSantis did.
Many decades ago, the state of Florida struck a deal with Disney. Since it would be operating a massive theme parks and resorts business, a special carve-out was put in place that gives Disney special tax status. They wouldn’t have to pay state taxes as other businesses would. But they would be responsible for providing their own municipal services, like first responders, road maintenance and trash collection.
I don’t know who made out better on that deal, Disney or Florida. But DeSantis moved to rescind that special tax status and, with it, much of the leniency and autonomy that Disney had enjoyed for years. And he didn’t even pretend it was unrelated to the company’s statement.
Maya Estrada: (25:30)
Ron DeSantis had kind of hinted it, um, Disney's special improvement district being dissolved, um, just as like a goal. But then with all of this, uh, tension building for Disney, either supporting or not supporting the bill, it kind of seemed like if you don't act one way, then there will be consequences. So after, um, Disney made a statement, um, governor Ron DeSantis did, um, he didn't dissolve the district, but he did like take over the board that controls the district. Um, sort of, I guess as a way it, a lot of these actions seem like retaliation for Disney speaking out. And I know in an interview he had stated kind of that there would be, um, that Disney never should have gotten involved or shouldn't get involved with this issue, and that there would be consequences if they did.
EM: The legal wrangling will continue, I’m sure. But, in the meanwhile, Disney has taken further action.
Brionne Fischer: (28:53)
following Disney, speaking out against the bill, um, they've made a lot of steps to kind of regain that trust that they lost with the L G BT Q community.
Brionne Fischer: (29:15)
So first of all, they realized that something needed to be changed in the leadership and they made that change very quickly.
EM: What Brionne is referring to here is the resignation of then-CEO Bob Chapek, who took the brunt of the blame for mishandling this issue. He was replaced by former CEO Bob Iger - who, if anything, has only dug into the company’s position, even abandoning a $1 billion development project set for Florida citing the difficulty of the business environment.
Brionne Fischer: (29:44)
and then in May of 2022, Disney began to promote their pride collection that included merchandise created by L G B T Q employees, and then the profits from the items sold were donated to L G BT Q advocacy groups.
Brionne Fischer: (30:00)
lso this year Disney announced, um, gay Days Orlando, which is an annual event held as a celebration for the L G BT Q community. And then in addition, we've seen Disney making a lot of efforts to include L G B T Q representation in its films. Um, I don't know if y'all have heard, but, um, there was one called Light Year, um, in June of 2022, um, which featured Pixar's first same-sex kiss on screen. And then in November of 2022, Disney revealed its new film Strange World, which featured Walt Disney Animation Studio's first openly gay lead character.
EM: Ayisha concludes that there’s one group with which Disney could have done better.
Ayisha Dgibo: (34:38)
employees were essentially the ones that really spearheaded the whole protest movement and things going viral and people getting angry was really the employees. So I think Disney just needed to do better with their employees, not really.
EM: For Maya, the feelings are mixed.
Maya Estrada: (38:44)
in a way I feel like I'm just reminded maybe a little bit of that magic has been taken away because I see like their business, they have to make business moves.
Maya Estrada: (39:07)
but I still, when I went to the parks last week, I had like, you know, the time of my life. Like it's so fun to be immersed in all the things that they have there, but stepping off that and looking around like in Florida, seeing like the real problems, it's very interesting to see like this is something that they have to deal with as a company.
Maya Estrada: (39:38)
I don't have any like, negative feelings towards Disney, but I think I just, um, I'm a little bit more aware that they are a corpora, they are a corporation and um, a lot of this is about making money. So, um, I just think that that is more apparent to me now than it was before we did this case.
Eliot Mizrachi: (39:58)
Uh, how, how much on your mind during your visit to Disney would you say this all was, like, did anything happen during your trip that sort of reminded you of this and made you feel one way or the other?
Maya Estrada: (40:08)
Yes, actually, I mean, it was June when we went, so it's pride month and when we went, you know, there was a lot of pride merchandise and there were, well, I went to Magic Kingdom and there was like a pride, um, mural on one of the walls in Tomorrow Land, and I was immediately brought back to the case and I was thinking about it and thinking like, how genuine are these actions? Because maybe before I had done this case, I'd been like, oh, how great. Like, they're celebrating Pride, pride month. But after doing this case, I just had to think like, how genuine is this? Um, or is this just kind of like a recovery step?
Maya Estrada: (41:15)
but overall when you're at Disney, it's so hard to stay like mad . It's so hard to only focus on the negative things because so much of it is so fun.
EM: So now, after having studied the case and followed developments since, what are the lessons?
Maya Estrada: (43:09)
I think one of the page principles is really applicable here. Um, specifically page principle number six. So realizing that an enterprise's true character is expressed by its people. I think in this case especially, we see the power of employees and the people who make up an organization and I think that, um, the principal also states that every stakeholder plays a part in public relations, whether or not that's like part of their job. And I think this is just a really good example of that because so much of the public relations and the um, like spotlight that Disney got shown on it was because of the employees speaking out on social media and on YouTube. And I think showing what the employees really care about and what Disney, you know, claimed to care about, which made the employees, you know, want to work there.
Maya Estrada: (43:57)
Um, it just shows how important it is that when you have these values and express them and you know that your employees maybe share those values as well.
Brionne Fischer: (41:51)
I think that the case demonstrates what all communicators know that you can't please everyone. So in situations like this where people are very emotionally invested in the issue from totally opposite points of view, um, the best thing that you can do is stand up for what your core values are, otherwise, why have them?