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Marketing in Progress is a spinoff of Work in Progress that digs into what’s moving the needle in B2B. We feature marketing leaders, sales leaders, and agency owners sharing real stories, smart ideas, and no-filter perspectives—so you walk away with practical guidance to help you do your job better.
[00:00:00] Kate Bullis: The most successful CMOs I know have been great at developing their own
brand, not just representing the brands that they work for, but have a brand within their
community. That brand takes you places.
[00:00:16] Gayle Kalvert: Welcome to Marketing In Progress. I'm Gayle Kalvert. This show is for B2B
marketing leaders who are under real pressure to deliver results without a clear roadmap.
Each episode is built to give you practical insight you can use right away. We focus on what
actually matters, how success is measured, and the decisions and trade-offs necessary for success.
If you're trying to cut through the noise. Do better work and build credibility inside your
organization. You are in the right place.
Let's get into it.
[00:00:50] Gayle Kalvert: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Marketing in Progress. I'm your host,
Gayle Kalvert. Today I'm joined by Kate Bullis, Global Marketing Practice Leader and Managing
Director at ZRG Partners. With more than 20 years of executive search experience focused on
go-to-market and growth leadership, Kate has partnered with everyone from venture-backed
startups to Fortune 500 companies, placing top talent across marketing, sales, and business
development.
From CEOs to CMOs and chief revenue officers, Kate has helped shape the leadership teams
driving growth at some of today's most dynamic companies. In this episode, we discuss what
boards, CEOs, and recruiters prioritize when hiring a CMO, the biggest mistakes even experienced
marketing leaders make during the hiring process, and how to position yourself for a CMO role.
Welcome, Kate. I'm so excited to have you here.
[00:01:45] Kate Bullis: Thank you. Great to be here.
SHARE YOUR GENIUS 1
[00:01:47] Gayle Kalvert: Well, I'm, I'm super, super excited to have you here, Kate, because you are
the first person to join Marketing in Progress and talk about the hiring of a CMO.
Ooh. On this show, we often have marketing leaders who actually ... You know, either they are
CMOs or they're in marketing leadership roles, and we're talking about the ins and outs of the role
and what that looks like. But today, I would love to just start at the top. you've been doing this for a
long time.
What would you say right now is what boards and CEOs are really looking for in a CMO?
it varies industry to industry. given that more often than not, I am in those, SaaS and enterprise
technology conversations.
[00:02:36] Kate Bullis: I will say that if there is a word that describes what CEOs and boards are
looking for in CMOs right now, it's transformation. And it's probably a word that nobody wants to
hear because they're exhausted by it but, it is the truth. Transformation when it comes to SaaS
itself, of course. transformation in the delivery of the product, but the, the AI-ing of every
business, is well underway, and that includes AI as part of the product itself, AI as it applies to how
each function in a company is using it, day to day.
And for marketers specifically, of course, how AI is being used in the craft day to day, how it's
being applied to all go-to-market. so, transformation is everywhere you look. CEOs are asking me
to bring them not just your playbook SaaS CMO, but quite the opposite. And this is the difference in
the market in less than two years.
only two years ago, the ask was for a world-class, enterprise SaaS CMO for a SaaS business. but
those days are over. playbooks are totally in the garbage. and it's all about, demonstrate your
curiosity, demonstrate your ability to be, not just transformative, but innovative.
How are you using, marketing in your org chart? How are you using it and deploying it in the craft,
in the technology you use? and how are you helping the C-suite side to side, team one? How are
you using your past as a CMO to help your peers in the transformation as well? you know, change
is in your department.
Transformation is a company-wide effort.
[00:04:36] Gayle Kalvert: This is really good, and that's exactly where I wanted to go next is how do
you demonstrate-
that you are a candidate who has experience driving transformation with positive results given
that it is so early in our AI-
SHARE YOUR GENIUS 2
[00:04:52] Kate Bullis: Yeah ...
[00:04:52] Gayle Kalvert: journey, right? I mean, every function needs to be transforming right now
given how quickly everything in business and the way we do business is changing.
[00:05:03] Kate Bullis: I know where you're going.
[00:05:04] Gayle Kalvert: You know where I'm going? How are they showing- Mm-hmm ...
demonstrable results in transformation when just two years ago we were all just playing around
with ChatGPT, right? Right.
[00:05:13] Kate Bullis: will make sure I'm being clear here. I am not suggesting that every
individual seeking a CMO role needs to demonstrate their transformational performance as it
relates to AI.
I agree. It's too soon to be able to say, I've got a year of transformation thanks to AI under my belt.
Now, I will say that's already happening. There are CMOs who can say that, That's not the trend yet.
we need another year before that's true.
[00:05:42] Gayle Kalvert: You have candidates who are on that end of the maturity spectrum and
are, you know, creating apps and transforming processes with AI, but the majority of the bell
curve is-
[00:05:50] Kate Bullis: Yeah
[00:05:50] Gayle Kalvert: probably in the middle, right?
[00:05:52] Kate Bullis: Yeah. and I would say that, the examples that you want to point to, If you're
in the beginning of your AI journey and hopefully you're beyond experimentation, you're in the
process of using it, in the process of, actually moving toward not just, oh, we deployed agents, but
we're actually changing our workflows thanks to it When I say come to the scene with
transformational stories, I'm more thinking about, you know, show us how you moved the needle
on a new customer segment or you moved the needle on new go-to-market partners.
And- and I don't just mean add, I mean really change. strategy for example, we were very digital,
maybe we need to be more events-driven than we were two years ago when everybody was just
doing digital. sharing ways that you have really made a difference to the bottom line, and with
your peers, so that you can show the needle moving on revenue thanks to something that wasn't
just more of the same.
SHARE YOUR GENIUS 3
You deployed technology. You, made data more available and used it in the way that you were
going to market. you expanded in terms of personas. you went into new markets, globally. Really
demonstrate something significant.
really understanding B2B marketing And then of course deploying AI everywhere you can for
efficiencies and productivity, you know, as well as knowledge and power.
that's the name of the game.
[00:07:27] Gayle Kalvert: are there any pitfalls or red flags that you would advise a candidate maybe
to not bring to the forefront?
are there any themes or anything you're seeing from candidates these days that you would say,
"You know what? That's something you don't really need to emphasize anymore,
"
are there topics, for example, that used to be important that aren't anymore?
[00:07:47] Kate Bullis: I think all great CMOs or those that are preparing to be, know what the hot
buttons always are. they're going to come up in a conversation. more often than not the, the, the
CMO conversation is this big, but in an interview it can quickly go to this based on what that CEO
really cares about as top priority right now.
So for example, you might have a fabulous background in product marketing, positioning, maybe
even category creation, which I consider to be, you know, the ultimate in messaging and
positioning. those things might be all on the table, but if the CEO wants to talk about demand gen-
it's there and it's wonderful and you'll use it.
But you want to talk about the demand gen because- Mm-hmm ... that's what the CEO wants to talk
about.
[00:08:39] Gayle Kalvert: There are so many functional areas we really need to know about as a
marketer.
You know, you mentioned product marketing, brand, demand gen, right? One of the things that
you and I have spoken about is that every candidate, I would argue, for a position, not just
marketing, but in the CMO role as well, needs to know what their superpowers are, right? You've
said that to me. It's like-
[00:09:04] Kate Bullis: Yeah
SHARE YOUR GENIUS 4
[00:09:04] Gayle Kalvert: nobody can do it all. You might know about- a lot of different areas within
marketing, but it is very difficult to know them all. So can you talk about how somebody is a
successful candidate The pitfall or the red flag might be,
"I'm really great at everything.
"
[00:09:22] Kate Bullis: the market, swings in tech very often. There can be a real swing. Couple
years ago there was a definite swing in product marketing as a superpower. more recently I'm
seeing the swing to demand gen, as the desirable superpower.
and I think that, that tells you a lot about a market. but, many marketers that I talk to know what
their spikes are. They'll say,
"Well, I grew up in demand gen,
" and then obviously it, expanded. and
so spine and my superpower personally is demand gen, versus product marketing versus brand-
Mm-hmm
so More often than not I find that CMOs know that. What I find that they don't necessarily, bring to
the table is a real understanding of all the other things that they know well that they don't
necessarily put together with, an opportunity. and so what I mean by that are things like what
about the, audiences that you've served?
The audiences you've marketed to, I mean. maybe it's line of business. Maybe it's a technical buyer.
it is line of business, do you have a strong spike? Because maybe you were in vertical SaaS and,
nobody knows supply chain executives better than you do. Nobody knows CFOs and how to
market to them better than you do.
what about moment in time? You know, putting together the experiences that you have had, for
example, with companies that have asked you to move upmarket into enterprise, or maybe you're
a PLG marketer. You really know that motion. Um, m- moment in time also about the company's
moment. is the company currently, a lot of trouble and the marketing team, really has to look at,
maybe the investments it's made, data is old, or, maybe you're really good at getting down into the
weeds and fixing versus I'm the one that you bring in when you're going international.
Mm-hmm. So all of those other... Look at your career as if you're standing above it.
And find the threads, even if they weren't deliberate. Even if you didn't deliberately build your
career in that direction, find those threads and then play to those strengths when you're talking to
a company. Ask yourself,
"Is this the right opportunity for me to even investigate and spend time
against
if my strengths won't be, really required?" You wanna go where you're dangerous. and so finding all
the things that you can be dangerous under, that's what I mean, not just, you know, what are your
functional areas of expertise. There are moments, there are customers, and there are, superpowers
in terms of the change that's on the table.
SHARE YOUR GENIUS 5
[00:12:12] Gayle Kalvert: So I think as a candidate, they can do a lot of research about the
organization, even the CEO, and themselves ahead of even having a conversation with somebody
like you, right?
my role is not just to be a walking position description and,hand an executive, uh, candidate, a
couple of paragraphs about a company and say,
"Are you interested? Let me introduce you.
" my
role if I'm doing my job well on the candidate's behalf is to be very specific about what the real
challenge on the table is.
[00:12:49] Kate Bullis: I'm going to approach you with some assumptions that you are likely to be a
candidate, but I will assess whether that assumption is correct based on the real drill down that
not just of the candidate, but of the role, of the opportunity. If I don't really have a great
understanding of what's really going on in this company-
I can't begin to equip you with the answer as to whether or not this is even worth your time.
[00:13:21] Andrea Race: Right.
[00:13:21] Kate Bullis: So this is a two-way street. You're absolutely right. AI can be very helpful to
an executive perhaps in, a person's, self-awareness and understanding. but there should be an
expectation on the part of the executive recruiter if there is one in the situation that they really
understand the situation and they can honestly tell an executive whether they're a good fit.
[00:13:46] Speaker: Are you a marketing leader in B2B Tech? Do you wanna hear what your peers
are actually doing? What's working, what they're ditching, and how they're navigating the pressure
we're all under.
Well, you're in luck. We just launched the Marketing and Progress community. It's a space for
sharing ideas, learning from your peers, and having fun along the way. Visit Creo
collective.io/marketing and progress to learn more and join us.
[00:14:14] Gayle Kalvert: So how do you find the candidates?
[00:14:16] Kate Bullis: easily half if not more of the executives we wind up, actually placing are
executives that we know from our, network. but that means that almost half
And so finding those executives happens in a lot of ways, and one of them is, yeah, sure, we're on
LinkedIn every day just like just about everybody else. Mm-hmm. a lot of executives who have
fallen off of LinkedIn, by the way. they're starting to get a little tired of it. but LinkedIn is definitely
a way that we stay connected.
SHARE YOUR GENIUS 6
I will say that even when we identify someone through LinkedIn or through just our ... You know,
we've got a lot of different research tools that we use. we've got whole teams that, tap into these
research tools-
... AI among them, of course.
but it isn't necessarily, the answer was directly from the network or it's a lot of recommendations. I
do have to say marketers do themselves a great service by being very networked with their peers.
just staying relevant to the sales executives you might work with or product or CEOs that you have
great relationships with is not enough.
Being networked with your peers in the marketing community is a major, major help, because
marketers talk to each other and about each other. tap into those communities personally-
[00:15:44] Andrea Race: Mm ...
[00:15:44] Kate Bullis: to ask, who are the up-and-comers? Who are the ones I need to know? and I
just got to know s- this person.
Anybody else know him?
[00:15:53] Gayle Kalvert: Mm-hmm. So can you define networked to me? I think this is an area
where I know I'm always looking for advice and guidance. we're all really busy, right?you know, of
course you want to have a great reputation and work well with others.
What would you recommend, literally 101, to be, you know, as you say, networked in the industry?
[00:16:14] Kate Bullis: I don't mean spend three hours a week, carve it out and make sure you're
talking to CMO peers. You know, I mean more, you know, get involved in these great communities
that are available, especially the B2B CMO communities.
6sense has a great, you know, weekly coffee talk. every Friday, 8:00 AM, one hour. CMO Huddles is
another one that I really like. these are just communities. They have events both in person and
webinars. it's so easy to just kind of create a little tribe and that tribe can get really big really fast.
the most successful CMOs I know have been great at developing their own brand, not just
representing the brands that they work for, but-have a brand within their community. That brand
takes you places.
[00:17:09] Gayle Kalvert: is there anything, Kate, that you think I should ask about that you want to
make sure we cover?
SHARE YOUR GENIUS 7
[00:17:13] Kate Bullis: There is one question that I often get that I would like to just, bring up
because we were talking for a second about brand and your own brand.
if you are trying to decide what the difference is between your value proposition and your brand,
because I think that your value proposition has to do with those superpowers we were talking
about earlier. But brand has to do with the way you show up into every room, no matter what
company you're in, no matter what role you play.
if you're trying to figure out what that brand is, a great exercise is to call on five people that have
worked with you, and simply ask them,
" If someone called you tomorrow and said,
'Tell me
about...
' these are professional connections now.
Tell me about Gayle. What story would you tell about me?"
If you were acting as a reference tomorrow, what words would you use to describe me? What
experiences working with me immediately come to mind as the things that made me valuable to
you?" that has nothing to do,potentially with your resume. Mm-hmm. It has everything to do with
the way that person perceived not only the value you brought to them, but the way you delivered
the value.
You're gonna hear words like how and, you're gonna hear words like why instead of what.
[00:18:40] Andrea Race: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:40] Kate Bullis: and I think that Words that come to mind or stories that come to mind. You
will suddenly be incredibly educated about the way you come into a room. And it's not just an
education, it's a gift because you are now speaking in the words of someone else.
And so you don't have to feel like you're acting bold or, arrogant. You are simply speaking in the
words of someone who knows you well and knows what your value is.
[00:19:14] Gayle Kalvert: Better than saying,
"I am this, this, and this,
" but,
"I've been told.
"
[00:19:18] Kate Bullis: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:18] Gayle Kalvert: It's like having your customer speak on behalf of your solution rather
than-
[00:19:22] Kate Bullis: No, better marketing team than your customer, right? that kind of advocate.
So,
SHARE YOUR GENIUS 8
you're gonna learn that that's the story you would tell someone about me? I didn't even know you
thought that was such a big deal. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you didn't know that that changed everything
for our team when you did that? it's just invaluable. that exercise is one I really recommend.
it's very empowering.
[00:19:46] Gayle Kalvert: If somebody's a little shy to do that, can they do this by email or
something, or do you really want people to push to have real, live conversations with people and
get that feedback?
[00:19:54] Kate Bullis: It's okay to ask over email.
just there's something very powerful about the conversation
[00:20:00] Gayle Kalvert: it. No, I can tell just how excited and lit up you get, like, thinking about
what people must hear from these conversations. I've done this exercise for something different,
and I can attest to the fact that you're, like, blown away.
it's a really great, a great exercise.
Kate, thank you so much. It was
[00:20:16] Kate Bullis: wonderful to be here. And we'll see you soon. And thank you, Gayle.
[00:20:19] Gayle Kalvert: If this episode was helpful, please follow marketing and progress and tap
like it helps other marketing leaders find the show. And if you know someone who's navigating
similar challenges, feel free to share this episode with them. Thanks for listening. We'll see you
next time.