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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
[00:00:00] Stephanie: The craziest part about that for me was there was a moment where I trusted you enough to share a shadow part of me that only comes out when I'm really mad. And I wasn't mad at you, but I was like, "Here's what the part of me that would burn things down would [00:00:15] do." I shared this rageful part of me, and you were like, "Oh, that's so sweet and cuddly."
And I was like, "What?" Like, I just showed you the darkest part of me, and you're saying it's cute and warm and fuzzy? Like...
[00:00:29] Soad: That's [00:00:30] amazing because it gave me a you. Like, I got to actually see you, and that to me was like, "Aw, Stef, this is you. Like, I'm here for this." I loved it.
[00:00:42] Announcer: You must be some kind of therapist[00:00:45]
[00:00:48] Stephanie: Today I'm here with my friend Soad Tabrizi. She is a therapist, the founder of conservativecounselors.com. She has appeared twice before on this [00:01:00] podcast. I'll include links to the previous episodes in the show notes. She has a Substack. She is one opinionated and feisty lady, and I'm just excited to connect on a personal level today because Soad has a, a [00:01:15] way of bringing out a different side of me that, uh, we have agreed my viewers or my listeners should see more of.
[00:01:26] Soad: don't be all business I
[00:01:26] Stephanie: don't, I, I don't know what's gonna happen [00:01:30] when we put the two of us together.
[00:01:31] Soad: Neither do I. Neither do I, actually. This is gonna be fun.
[00:01:35] Stephanie: And the thing is, your whole public persona is so like, "This is me. These are my opinions. Take it or leave it." Like, very unapologetic.
Um, and me, I'm, [00:01:45] I'm a little bit more, like I dip my toes in those waters, but then I get back to like, my safe zone. Yeah.
[00:01:50] Soad: Yeah. So
[00:01:51] Stephanie: I'm a little nervous for what's gonna happen today.
[00:01:53] Soad: I'm excited for your audience to kind of see a different side of you, 'cause like I told you, meeting with you and [00:02:00] sitting with you is such a different experience than seeing you online.
So, and I, and I feel like everyone needs to kind of have a little, little taste of that part of you. So
[00:02:09] Stephanie: cool. So for, uh, for listeners' context, I recently went on a California road trip with my family, [00:02:15] and managed to coordinate some meetups along the way. The point of the trip was not business, it was personal.
Uh, but I did want to meet some friends along the way, and so Soad graciously drove up from Orange County to meet me in LA [00:02:30] when I was visiting family there. Had a wonderful time. Got vulnerable, ended up crying in her car. Um, praying together, saying, "I love you," all that shit. Um,
[00:02:40] Soad: I love it.
[00:02:41] Stephanie: And, uh, so we had, we had a very personal heart-to-heart.
We felt what it was [00:02:45] like to be in one another's presence. And, uh, so having connected on that level as friends, um, I think we had actually scheduled this interview before that, because I had put out the call to a bunch of previous guests to come [00:03:00] on back and have a part two or a part three. Um, but I think we'd sort of agreed like, "Oh yeah, there's just like a side of me that my audience doesn't get to see much of," and that I'm honestly quite ambivalent about showing people, because, [00:03:15] um, I think we deserve to have a private life, and there are certain parts of my life I do wanna keep private.
And I've also had the experience of people not always treating me well when I share p- certain parts of myself that really aren't just anybody's business. But [00:03:30] I think that something about the way that you carry that balance of professional and personal, um, is inspiring for me, and, and I wanna see if you can help me bridge some of those gaps.
[00:03:42] Soad: Oh, I'm, I'm honored to help you do that. [00:03:45] And, and just as a side note, when I... I want your audience to know, when I went to go meet Stephanie, I, I honestly didn't know what to expect except that I was excited to get to know her better. And- [00:04:00] It did not disappoint. Getting to know her, um, loving on her, being loved on, seeing her in such a different light, um, understanding her story and where she's coming from, which is really what I would like [00:04:15] us to talk about, um, really just gave me a tot- a, a bigger and broader picture of you versus just the person that I see on X or the, the professional relationship I have with you from the podcast.
Like, it just was like, "Aw, [00:04:30] Stephanie, you're my friend." It's like, I actually really like you. Like-
[00:04:34] Stephanie: The craziest part about that for me was, uh, there was a moment where I trusted you enough to share, like, a shadow part of me that only [00:04:45] comes out when I'm really mad. And I wasn't mad at you, but I was like, I was like, "Here's what the part of me that would burn things down would do."
Like, like, I shared this, like, rageful part of me, and you were like, "Oh, that's so sweet and cuddly." And I was like, "What?" [00:05:00] Like, I just showed you the darkest part of me, and you're saying it's cute and warm and fuzzy? Like...
[00:05:08] Soad: I have problems. That's amazing. Because it gave me a you. Like, I got to actually see you, [00:05:15] and that to me was like, aw, Steph, this is you.
Like, I, I'm here for this. I loved it. I loved it.
[00:05:22] Stephanie: Well, I've, I've been thinking a lot about just a lot of things recently, and I found myself in my [00:05:30] Um, my recent article criticizing Therapy First, which you read, um, Lisa Duval left a, a comment, and I responded to her, and then I, I saw a reflection for myself in my response because what I found myself saying is that the [00:05:45] people I've connected with the best have this energy about them where they don't necessarily have to say this, but their vibe gives off a sense of, "Man, this life shit is really hard.
It's really crazy being human, isn't it? This is tough," [00:06:00] right? And there's like a warmth in that. Um, and the people who I feel put off by are... And, and maybe this is just my experience of them, maybe other people experiencing them differently, right? But [00:06:15] there's more of like a coldness where I get the sense that they're trying to convince people that they've got this life shit mastered.
And I'm like, I'm like, "None of us have this mastered. We're all gonna die. Um, we're [00:06:30] all vulnerable to the same sins. Like, like, who do you think you're kidding?" Um, and as I was commenting that, 'cause I was thinking about like the warmth that I get from you and some of my other friends, and I was like, I was like, "Oh, is that what people think I [00:06:45] do?"
Like, do people think when I'm like, when I'm being poised or detached or intellectualizing or, you know, what I call like taking the high road, when I'm doing that, do people think that I'm doing that, "Oh, yes, I have life mastered"? 'Cause like that's not... Like, [00:07:00] I feel like I'm very messy actually, and I feel like I retreat to that space of like these are the, these are the pieces of solid ground that I can stand on when I'm, when I am speaking about an area where I have mastery.
I [00:07:15] don't feel like I give across the vibe that I think I've mastered life. I feel like I'm a very messy person, and that it's obvious to everyone that like life is really fucking hard. But I'm like, "Oh, is that how I come across? Do [00:07:30] people think that I'm acting like I'm on my high horse? Oh, yes, I've mastered life."
[00:07:33] Soad: No, I didn't think that- That's a piece of cake ... at all about you. I didn't think you had mastered life. I just... It was more Will you forgive me when I say it? 'Cause it was more [00:07:45] that I was like, is there something actually, like, wrong? Like, actually scientific- is she maybe autistic or Asperger's? Like, is there a disconnect because there was no emotion.
Like, you, you are [00:08:00] feisty on your ex when you, like, um, get mad at someone for saying something stupid or dumb or whatever, as I do as well. You, y- you can see that immediate response that you give, but it's still very intellectualized. And so that's why I was always like, "But where's, like, [00:08:15] the actual fuck you?
Where's the, where's that without, like, the proper words? Like, where's that emotion from?" And then when I sat with you and met with you, I was like, "Oh, no, she has that. She is 100%." I just, I want others [00:08:30] to see this part of her 'cause I think people need it. Like, there's, there's a... And it's such a gift. Like, when I, literally, Stephanie, when I sat with you, I was like, I, I feel bad that people who are your audience don't know this part [00:08:45] of you.
Now, it's not for everyone because you're not supposed to give all of you to everybody. I get that. There are certain things that you keep to yourself. But the personality that you have, that's what it was. It wasn't that it, you were sharing all these intimate stories with me. It was a personality [00:09:00] that I saw that I was like, oh, somehow this needs to come across.
This needs to be shown on, on the screen in some way because you do have so much personality and so much depth and so much emotion, so much feistiness, so much character. Like, it's really all [00:09:15] is there, and I was... I loved it. I loved all of it. Like, it was, it was, I was blessed. I felt very, very blessed.
[00:09:22] Stephanie: Hmm.
[00:09:22] Soad: So yeah.
[00:09:23] Stephanie: Maybe it just takes a certain degree of ego strength to, um, [00:09:30] have that, uh, that fuck you energy, right, that you describe. I love how much you curse for a Christian, by the way, and for a therapist. I'm like, I'm like, is this, is she allowed to do this?
[00:09:44] Soad: Um- No, [00:09:45] it's still a sin. I still do it.
[00:09:46] Stephanie: Okay. Um, yeah.
I mean, it's, you know, I, I do have, like, morals, and I, I, I believe in, you know, turning the other cheek and stuff like that. [00:10:00] And also, like- What was I saying about ego strength? Um, I have been just, like, so hurt in my life by people's cruelty. Um, and one game that people have [00:10:15] tried to play with me a lot is the whole, let me get her to do something that I can use to make her look bad, and then point and say how bad she is because of that situation I provoked her into.
I have been in that situation so many times [00:10:30] that I feel, like, very resistant to it. And so being pulled into an argument, especially, like, in the places you're talking about with social media, right? Acts like, who, who deserves that from me, right? To... And [00:10:45] then especially, like, considering that my foray into public life a few years ago, back in, well, it's been five years now, right?
And I wrote about that. In my reflections on Therapy First, I wrote a lot of reflection that I needed to process of what the last five years have been. [00:11:00] And remember, I came on the scene, nobody knew who I was, and within months I was being mass reported to my licensing board. I was, like, being threatened in so many ways.
And so that'll do things to a [00:11:15] person. Like, I'm just now, five years later, in that article on Therapy First, processing so much of what the last five years have been. I'm stronger now. I have more ego strength, more maturity. I have a much stronger network. I have a stronger [00:11:30] body of work. I have people who will back me up.
I've earned trust and respect in ways that make it feel a lot safer to say, "Fuck you." Or whatever my more, um, eloquent version of that might be in a [00:11:45] certain situation. I feel like I can say that now. Um, but I think with, um, some of my, I don't wanna call it, like, martyr pattern, but some of my, like, issues from [00:12:00] bullying, because you have to remember, I was scapegoated.
Scapegoating is the word I'm looking for, not martyr. Scapegoat, right? Like, I was scapegoated from a early, early age. It's such a deeply ingrained pattern in me. So when I feel cornered, when I feel attacked, [00:12:15] it's like there's a porousness that's taken me years to fill in. Like, you have to have a solidity in you to say, "Fuck you," right?
Like, there's a porousness where I have felt like I owe the world an explanation as [00:12:30] to, like, every mark on my soul. And, and then, you know, you discover, like, oh, people's intentions are malicious. They don't deserve to, you know, like... And I don't have to be perfect in order to deserve to defend myself. So it's just [00:12:45] taken me a while, I think, to get to the point of, um, being willing to engage on that level.
[00:12:52] Soad: Yeah. And if, if I can say to your audience, if you want to start seeing more of who [00:13:00] Stephanie is, definitely read that Therapy First article, 'cause that really, I mean, you wrote that so well, so well. It painted such a great picture of how you got to where you are, and then, of course, then your frustrations with Therapy First, which I share in, [00:13:15] um, 100%.
But then there was also the article, um, about your friendships. I know it's behind a paywall, but it's worth it. Uh, people pay to read it, um, because again, it, it was [00:13:30] another glimpse of who you are, and I was just like, "Okay, this I- we're starting to see the Stephanie." Like, this is the Stephanie I met. And the other thing is, is I, I don't think people really truly understand what you went through as a kid.
[00:13:45] And, and it explains a lot of maybe who you're showing on X. Um- And so I, I'd like, if we could, kind of pull some of, whatever you're comfortable with in sharing. Like for instance, [00:14:00] I- we're, we're from California, so we know all of California and we know... And actually, we have a very interesting, um, similarity in our past.
Like, we both also live in the Bay Area, and we, and then we both came down south. So I just think that people [00:14:15] don't, who aren't from California don't understand what Compton is. And- ... and, and that's, that's kinda, that's where you grew up. And I think people need to understand that because when you tell me Compton, I'm like, "What?"
Like immediately 'cause I [00:14:30] know what it is, I'm just like, "Oh my God, you did?" A- and, and a lot of it is because you're white, and it's like, what? You're a white girl in Compton. How, what was that like? So if you can just explain to your audience what Compton is [00:14:45] and what that's like for a white girl to grow up there.
[00:14:48] Stephanie: Yeah. So, um, I gr- I would say like Compton is not exactly where I grew up, but it's pretty close culturally and geographically. Like, I was closer to Inglewood, if that- Okay ... [00:15:00] rings a bell. Um-
[00:15:01] Soad: No
[00:15:01] Stephanie: difference to me ... it's a much different, much different place today. Much different. Like, I walk around, 'cause my mom still lives in the same place, and I walk around the neighborhood and I'm like, "Oh, I wouldn't have minded growing up here."
Like, there's people [00:15:15] of all skin colors hanging out together in the common areas. It feels safe. It feels integrated, and like, I, I don't know, almost a little posh there now. Wow. I would- There's like a Whole Foods. There's a Whole Foods like five minutes from where I grew up, and when I grew up, [00:15:30] the idea of a Whole Foods being five minutes away was not conceivable.
Um, so I mean, here's the thing. Like, one reason I hesitate to share this part of my past is 'cause my mom's not gonna like it. [00:15:45] Um, the thing is, I can never make her completely happy, and she did stop listening to my podcast a while ago, I think. So like the thing is, I, I feel [00:16:00] sensitive heading into this territory because there is this fake monolith called the parents, okay?
And in the world of, uh, gender [00:16:15] critical social media- Uh, there is this sort of status hierarchy. Some people fall prey to, um, idealizing ROGD parents as if they're all the [00:16:30] same and as if they're all, like, just the best people who have been horribly victimized. And the reality is they're as human as any group.
They're diverse. They are, like, you know that idea we're all just doing our best? [00:16:45] No, some of us are actually doing our best, and not everyone, not everyone is doing their best. So when we talk about parents of any kind, that's not a monolith. Three-quarters of people on the planet will be parents at some point in their life [00:17:00] And ROGD parents, I work with them.
I have wonderful relationships with my clients. And some anon who's gonna read some, like, two-sentence tweet of mine and decide that I'm somehow a threat to their community because I said something critical about someone's [00:17:15] parenting once upon a time, they have no idea what kind of relationship I have with my many, many clients who feel like I am a godsend for them.
And I don't mean to put myself on a high horse when I say I am confident in the quality of relationships I have with my individual clients, with [00:17:30] the ROGD repair community. I have many, many ROGD parents who feel like I've helped them. But I'm not gonna help them by treating them as a special untouchable victim class.
We don't, we don't help anybody by assigning these special untouchable victim classes that you can [00:17:45] only talk about in the most glowing terms. And so that exists as part of the internet subculture, and I have to be really careful with it because I truly have a lot of value to offer the ROGD [00:18:00] parent community.
And I can say that knowing that there are a lot of areas that I don't have value to offer. I'm not gonna be good on your trivia team. I don't know shit about history. Um, I, I'm not gonna be able to do your taxes. There are a lot of things I'm not good [00:18:15] at. I can't, I couldn't wear a pair of high heels if my life depended on it.
There are so many things- Same ... I'm not good at, okay? But I know that I do have a lot of value to offer the ROGD parent community because of the relationships I've built through [00:18:30] my coaching work and my course. And so I feel careful when we discuss the topic of parenting, because I don't want for anybody who could actually benefit from the tools in my course to feel turned off by something that they took out of context.
And because of [00:18:45] that, I'm hesitant to acknowledge how bad the deficits in my own parenting were. Because I start, if I start talking about how badly neglected I was, first of all, it's gonna piss off my mom. And second of all, there are [00:19:00] gonna be people who interpret that in a malicious way. They're gonna be like, "Oh, she has a chip on her shoulder about her own parenting, and so she hates us parents."
No, I don't hate you parents. I am here for the ROGD parent community, and I don't have to treat you as an [00:19:15] untouchable victim class in order to acknowledge what you're really struggling with, and that there's so much diversity in that community, and so many different ways of being a family, and so many different ways people get it right and get it wrong.
So that's part of my hesitation to say I was really [00:19:30] badly neglected as a kid. But the reality is, like, I am in a chapter of life where I have to do some of that reflection. Why? 'Cause my mom is old and frail, and I'm really trying to forgive her before she passes, and that's really, really hard for [00:19:45] me because she makes it hard to forgive her 'cause she has a hard time staying in a place of remorse.
She has a hard time staying in a place of empathy. She can, like- Give like little bits of, "Oh yeah, I screwed up, but, [00:20:00] but, but now, now let's go back to..." I don't know. So those are all my difficulties heading into this territory. However, as I started to do some autobiographical writing recently, I came across [00:20:15] these, you know, moments of childhood that I needed support that wasn't there, and I thought about the moms I know who would never have let that happen to their daughter.
Um, you know, down to [00:20:30] like how badly she screwed up the act of getting me my first bra and the implications that had for my entire middle school experience. Oh
[00:20:38] Soad: God, that must have been hard. Like
[00:20:40] Stephanie: nutritional deficiencies. Like I'm dealing my entire adult life with chronic health [00:20:45] problems partly because I had a really, really poor foundation in my childhood.
I did not get proper nourishment for my, like all my developmental years. I was nutritionally neglected because I was a willful child [00:21:00] and my mom didn't know how to parent. So the story was, you know, "You were just so strong-willed. What was I supposed to do? I just gave in." And, and I don't accept that. I teach parents how to work with willful children.
I teach them how to [00:21:15] set boundaries and give choices, including when you have a kid as hard to parent as I was or worse. There is always something you can do, and it's always your responsibility to make sure that kid ends up well-nourished. And if you just give in on that or any other disciplinary issue, it's like [00:21:30] what do you expect is gonna happen when they become an adult?
What do you expect I'm supposed to do as an adult in midlife dealing with all these chronic health issues when I know that my foundation of physical health was not laid [00:21:45] properly? I had severe nutrient deficiencies for my entire life growing up, and I was blamed for those deficiencies because I was a willful child.
So it's my fault. Okay, so it's my fault [00:22:00] that I was a picky eater. So because I was tough to parent at seven because I didn't like the taste of certain foods and I was insistent on being vegetarian as a young child, that means that for the whole [00:22:15] rest of my life I should have to deal with what's downstream of childhood malnutrition?
Um,
[00:22:21] Soad: this is- How old, how old were you when you decided to become a vegetarian?
[00:22:28] Stephanie: I was six or seven. [00:22:30]
[00:22:30] Soad: And what made you decide to do that? Uh, you just woke up one
[00:22:32] Stephanie: day? Uh, it was my friend's dad told me he was vegetarian and told me what that means, and that it was about protecting animals because meat came from animals.
And I was like, "Oh, well, I like animals, so I'm not gonna eat animals." [00:22:45] And at that age, I was also, like, making up a new name for myself every week. I was like, "My name is Crystal Rainbow," or, "My name is Star Flower." Like, I was, like, going through my little, like, princess, [00:23:00] um, n- name phase. And so my mom thought that my vegetarian phase was gonna be just like that.
And, uh, then, like, weeks turned into years, and I was just living on, like, [00:23:15] bread, rice, pasta, cheese pizza, like microwavable
[00:23:19] Soad: pasta basically. And at no point did your mom look at you and go, "This is, this is not okay. We gotta stop this"?
[00:23:24] Stephanie: She did not know how to set limits. She would get frustrated. She would give up.
I remember her [00:23:30] being angry with me. I remember her, um, being depressed, anxious, upset. I remember her frequently being frustrated with me, but I don't remember her expressing that frustration in a way that my child [00:23:45] brain could understand. And this is where I help people every day get into their kids' heads.
Through the power of language, this incredible tool that God gave us to transmit information from one brain into another, through the power of language [00:24:00] and observation, I help parents understand what their kids' behavior is communicating and how they can scaffold development, how they can explain things in a way that kids will understand.
But I don't remember things being explained to me in the way [00:24:15] that I could underst- I, like, I'm sure I was a handful as a child. I'm sure I was out of control, and I was behaving in ways that needed to be corrected. But I did not have a parent who knew how to correct my behavior. I did not kn- have a parent who knew how to meet wh- meet me where I [00:24:30] was and explain why it was wrong and how to get that need met a different way.
I just remember a parent getting frustrated, giving up, and feeling like, "I'm bad. I'm wrong." There's something just fundamentally wrong with me. But my [00:24:45] needs were not met, and the nutrition is just kind of the physical baseline of that. Like, my emotional needs were not met. My need for safety was not met.
[00:24:54] Soad: Why, why not safety? Why was that not met? And how
[00:24:57] Stephanie: was that met? So like you said, I grew up, you know, [00:25:00] pretty close to Compton and Inglewood and those neighborhoods, and I was born in the mid-'80s. Sorry,
[00:25:04] Soad: Stephanie, just real quick. Mm-hmm. So if we can explain what is Compton? Like, a lot of people who aren't in California, they don't understand.
[00:25:10] Stephanie: Oh, I mean, like, we're talking, like, gang territory, right? So these are, [00:25:15] these are, like, like, where a lot of your, like, '90s gangster rap comes from. Um, so and, and I did grow up, like, within, like, a cute little, um, like a, a relatively safer [00:25:30] condo complex within that neighborhood, so it was kind of an interesting mix.
Um, but you know, I was a minority as a white kid, and, um The, uh, I was seven when the [00:25:45] 1992 Rodney King beating riots happened, and that was my neighborhood. So I saw the looting, the burning. There was, like, ash falling into our yard from all the fires. I saw a gas station explode. I saw, like, the world burning down.
It felt very [00:26:00] apocalyptic as a child. Um, I mean, our schools were closed down, all of that, and there was so much racial tension after that. And so when I talk about being scapegoated, I mean, not only was I scapegoated by my mother, frankly, for her emotional problems [00:26:15] stemming from her own family issues, I was also scapegoated by my peers for being white.
So there was this narrative amongst the kids, like, the... I mean, these are all just children, right? I forgive them. They were children. They were hearing these things from [00:26:30] their parents. Their parents had a lot of anti-white hatred. Their parents might not have been thinking about, what are the implications of sending this message for how my kid's gonna treat other kids on the playground?
But the reality was that these kids were [00:26:45] hearing that so many problems were white people's faults, and they took that to mean that it was my fault. This little girl on the playground who just wanted to be friends and play, it was my fault, right? So I was taunted. I was beaten. I was [00:27:00] threatened. I was tied up with ropes.
I was hit in the head with a basketball and knocked unconscious. Like, I had lotion poured over my head. You name it, it happened to me. I was called cracker. Um, I was called white girl. I was objectified [00:27:15] in ways that, you know, the, the culture nowadays has a really hard time acknowledging that this happens to white people.
And I did internalize it and, like, go the woke social justice route, and I kind of, like, you know, I... Until I questioned, [00:27:30] and I'm like, "What if, what if the whole narrative here is off? Like, how many other kids did this happen to?" So I was, I was scapegoated for things that happened long before me. Now, I've, I've since come to [00:27:45] understand that our narratives about slavery and racial injustice in the United States are way wrong.
Like, that- Our culture, our American culture did a lot to [00:28:00] end the practice of slavery that was unprecedented, that slavery existed in every culture, right? We're the ones who put an end to it. Um, but, you know, even before you get to the point of, like, questioning that, just the [00:28:15] reality of even if you accept the mainstream narrative at face value, the idea that that should be put on the shoulders of just a little girl who just wants to be friends and wants to play.
Um, I'm not gonna say [00:28:30] that I didn't have any friends or that d- there wasn't good things in my life as a child, because my mom did provide some things for me, and there were good children who were my friends and who looked out for me, children of all [00:28:45] races, Black, white, Hispanic, Jewish, Asian. Like, I'm not gonna say that there wasn't anything positive about my childhood, but I was not safe, and I was not fed.
I was not nourished. I was not [00:29:00] taught basic manners. If I went over to a friend's house for dinner, I didn't know how to sit at the table. Like, I didn't know table manners. I didn't... I wasn't taught please and thank you. Again, I had a parent getting frustrated with me for not knowing the right thing to do, but [00:29:15] I was not taught any of these things.
And then I would be in these other environments, and I would, like, just feel like there was something wrong with me 'cause I'm getting bad reactions, but again, it was not taught, it was not explained, it was [00:29:30] not scaffolded. And then I, you know, as an adult, I know you're not the biggest fan of Jordan Peterson, um, but, like, you know, one of his principles in 12 Rules for Living is don't let your children do anything that makes you dislike them And so [00:29:45] I, I did kind of relate to the archetype of the orphan or the, the kid, the kid raised by wolves.
[00:29:54] Soad: Right. No kidding.
[00:29:56] Stephanie: But, but, like, it took me a long time even to, like, see the [00:30:00] necessity of learning all the things I missed. Every now and then I would, like, be in a friend's home who had a more stable environment, who had, like, two parents and a sibling and sit-down meals, and I would be like, "Oh, this is what I'm missing?
Oh, this is how..." Like, [00:30:15] you know? Or, like, one of my friend's moms would, like, have, like, a, a maternal instinct toward me, and my mom- What
[00:30:22] Soad: was that like? What was that like to, like, have a mom do that for you? Were you-
[00:30:25] Stephanie: So I had a boyfriend when I was 12. Um, [00:30:30] his mom, bless her heart, um, took pity on me and, like, convinced me, 'cause we were both vegetarian, she convinced me I needed to at least eat beans as a protein source.
So she got me eating Taco Bell, which I thought of as health food. Um, I [00:30:45]
[00:30:45] Soad: love it.
[00:30:47] Stephanie: And, um, I remember her, like, telling me that I needed sunglasses because I had light eyes, 'cause I, I have blue eyes and I grew up in LA where it was very [00:31:00] sunny, and, you know, blue eyes are extremely sensitive to light. And I, it, it was one of those, like, physical needs that, like, when people don't recognize your physical needs as a child, you don't necessarily know them.
You're just going around, like, suffering and then acting like a person who's [00:31:15] suffering, right? So, like, I, I think I was hot a lot of the time. I was probably being blinded by the light. But I remember her being like, "Oh, you have blue eyes. You need sunglasses." Like, these, just these little things that would happen where it would occur to me that, [00:31:30] like, someone could see my needs in a way that wasn't being recognized.
And so as an adult, I've had so many moments looking back on from childhood of like, oh, if someone had been paying attention to me, they would've noticed this, or they would've noticed that. Like, like, [00:31:45] um, I've talked about, like, my love of boogie boarding. Like, I grew up in LA. I could've been boogie boarding the whole time.
Right? You know? If someone had just noticed how well I responded to the water, how good that was for me to be in the ocean. [00:32:00]
[00:32:00] Soad: How comfortable are you talking about your dad?
[00:32:04] Stephanie: Oh. Oh, he's an asshole. I don't give a fuck. Like, I, I'm much more comfortable talking about him than my
[00:32:11] Soad: mom. There's Stephanie.
[00:32:13] Stephanie: Yeah.
[00:32:13] Soad: There she is. Cut.
[00:32:14] Stephanie: [00:32:15] So, okay, here's the uncomfortable thing I'm gonna say. We do not know where to draw the line between Asperger's or level one autism and narcissistic personality disorder.
[00:32:26] Soad: Ah, describe
[00:32:27] Stephanie: that. And to the extent... I'm, I'm saying in some [00:32:30] people we know where to draw the line, but in some people we do not, and I would say he has both.
[00:32:35] Soad: Interesting. Interesting. Wow. Was he around?
[00:32:43] Stephanie: He made a little bit [00:32:45] of an effort to be around. Um, so I had to piece together that I was the product of an affair. That was not explained to me clearly. Um, I had to, like, put the pieces together and be [00:33:00] like, "Oh, wait a minute, my father was married to another woman.
Oh, okay." And how- "That's called an affair." How old were you? Oh, I don't remember when I pieced that together.
[00:33:09] Soad: Oh, God.
[00:33:10] Stephanie: Uh, but like ... So, um, and I don't [00:33:15] know, like, how much, like, my existence had to do with the ending of that marriage. That was his second marriage, and then there was a third marriage. Um, but, uh, my mom never wanted to be with him.
It was this, like, off-and-on thing 'cause he was pursuing [00:33:30] her, and she wanted a baby. And she was getting... She was 43. She was like, "It's now or never, so I guess it's gonna be this guy," right? And [00:33:45] Yeah. So he did make an effort, but within his very, very, very narrow abil- like, this is, like, talk about rigid and inflexible.
Like, this is someone whose life was bridge, backgammon, and chess, [00:34:00] and music theory. And, like, he ate the same foods every day. He had, uh, these walls that he lived within, and that had no room for anything that a [00:34:15] child needs. There was no playfulness whatsoever. One of the most important, I've since learned as a student of life and psychology and families, that one of the most important things a, a father can do is play with his children.
I didn't have any [00:34:30] experience of that. In listening back to this conversation, I realized I needed to add a little note here, because I had started answering Soad's question about my father, and then we moved on to other things. The answer [00:34:45] I originally gave her in the interview was incomplete. So I talked about how my father made somewhat of an effort, but it was constrained by his autism and self-centeredness.
The complete version of that story is that he made somewhat of an [00:35:00] effort for a few years. Um, he did move to the same neighborhood as me and try to have a relationship that way. But from a pretty early age, he did [00:35:15] disappear. So he stayed in the neighborhood, but stopped making an effort, and The reason he stopped was because I told him that my mother hated him.[00:35:30]
I was absorbing so much of my mother's anger and hostility toward him, and when I told him, I meant it like a secret that a kid confides in adult, like, "Please help. Please fix it." [00:35:45] I said, "Did you know my mother H-A-T-E-S you?" Uh, so that was my little plea for help to him. But with his rigidity and self-centeredness and inability to see from [00:36:00] other perspectives, he didn't recognize that as a child's plea for help.
He took that as rejection from both of us, and he gave up and stopped trying. And what that meant for the rest of my childhood after that point, which might have happened when I [00:36:15] was, I don't know, seven or eight, um, was that he still lived in the same neighborhood, and we would see him around occasionally on walks, and my mom would just act scared of him.
Uh, [00:36:30] there was just a fearful energy as if he was a monster, and then he would occasionally leave presents on our doorstep for Christmas or something like that. Um, so the communication did fall away, and he was completely absent [00:36:45] throughout my teen years. I resumed contact with him when I was 19 and returned to LA from Hawaii, which I get to later in the story.
Um, so there was a little while when I was 19, 20 that I tried to have somewhat of a relationship with [00:37:00] him and got some of my questions answered. Now, back to my conversation with Soad. The reality, since this is my time to share my truth, um, is that I did [00:37:15] not have playfulness or humor in the home, and I felt punished for my attempts at being playful and humorous.
And, you know, this is, this is where we get into the territory again that [00:37:30] makes my mom really upset to talk about. But I have said that, um, you know, my father is an autistic narcissist, and my mother I think of as being somewhat on the spectrum as [00:37:45] well, having some of those traits. There's definitely something different when it comes to theory of mind.
Um, and like looking back on my attempts at [00:38:00] developing my sense of humor as a child, some of it was, um, yeah, I'm not gonna say that it was entirely inoffensive. Um, maybe there, there were elements of my attempts at joking [00:38:15] that were mocking, but I was trying to make the most of a bad situation. I was growing up an only child of a depressed, anxious single mom.
Um, I had a lot of [00:38:30] unmet needs, including for safety and nutrition and really, like, bottom of the pyramids type stuff, as well as for emotional support, um, and understanding of my experience and needs as a child. And so [00:38:45] I think my attempts at, like, lightening the situation by inserting humor, uh, ideally would have been a little bit more supported and scaffolded, and we definitely use a lot more humor, uh, in our home with our kids.
[00:38:58] Soad: You basically are [00:39:00] saying that there was no guidance or example from an adult on how to react healthily and [00:39:15] normally, whatever that could be, just normally, to any given circumstance or situation. You had no, like, no one in front of you provided that like, "Oh, this is how you react to this. This is how, this, this [00:39:30] makes sense when this happens."
Like, none of that was present. Even in your environment it seems, except for the certain few parents that had healthier relationships with their children, but you just really were put in a place to figure it all out [00:39:45] completely on your own, what's, quote-unquote, "normal."
[00:39:47] Stephanie: Yeah, and I did a bad job at first.
Like, I think if I'd been able to spend a lot more time with my friends' families, that probably would have helped. Um, as it was, I was pretty anxious in my [00:40:00] friends' homes because there was always a sense of like, I don't know table manners. I you know, I'd been allowed to be such a picky eater that I, like, didn't know how to, like, graciously accept a normal meal.
Like, there are just, like, such really basic things [00:40:15] missing, and I think my mom lacked the ability to discipline and guide a child, plus lacked a sense of, um, social, what's socially proper. I, I-- And, and here's where she would push back, because my mom really [00:40:30] values the idea that she's very normal, and I think that's something she worked for.
But I think in the way that somewhat autistic people do kind of like study their environment to try to memorize what you're supposed to do, like, I think she kinda [00:40:45] did that in kind of this, like, rigid, clunky way, and then carried that forth from her upbringing from a different time and place. So here I was, you know...
I mean, she, she was growing up in the Midwest in the '40s and '50s, right? I was growing up in LA in the [00:41:00] '80s and '90s. And, you know, she was growing up in a mostly white Catholic environment. I was growing up in a mostly Black environment. Like, it just very different. There's something I needed to say about [00:41:15] growing up with my mom that didn't make it into this conversation with Soad, so I'm interjecting it here.
With Soad, I talked about how my mom wasn't able to teach me the things I needed to know that were relevant [00:41:30] to social situations in the world that I grew up in. What I left out is that she was very passionate about her special interests, and so when I talk about her [00:41:45] autistic traits, that's part of what I mean.
Uh, my mother had very special passion for musicology, music history, specifically everything about classical music, and it [00:42:00] was quite obviously very disappointing for her that I didn't share her passion. So growing up, she would lecture me in great detail about Rachmaninoff and Bach and Beethoven and Mozart.
And, [00:42:15] uh, I would tune out, and then she would get frustrated and upset with me for tuning out, for not being interested in what she had to share. So this was a part of the picture that I felt like I needed to add for anyone [00:42:30] who's trying to get a full sense of what was happening, because it was the combination of her not being aware of what was happening in the world that I was growing up in and what I was interested in and what my concerns were, combined with being [00:42:45] really kind of stuck in her own world and needing me as a child to be a sounding board for her particular interests.
And so when I say that she got frustrated with me for not [00:43:00] interacting properly in social situations, this is part of what made it so confusing, because one of the things that she was regularly frustrated with me about was that I wasn't interested in hearing all about music history. And that was a frustration [00:43:15] particular to her and what she wanted out of her relationship with me.
Her frustration with me in that situation did not have anything useful to teach me about what other people might be looking for in their interactions with me [00:43:30] And frankly, it was inappropriate, and again, showed a theory of mind deficit to expect a child to be interested in ancient music history. The social flexibility and nuance and [00:43:45] skill to kind of be aware as things evolve and read the room and...
That was missing, right? So I think part of where my relationship with her really broke down, and where it's still broken, [00:44:00] is that, uh, I, I started to learn the hard way that she didn't have anything valuable to teach me about things I really needed to know about. She wasn't there to guide me when it came to, like I said, [00:44:15] shopping for a first bra, and I can tell that story.
It's the most embarrassing thing that ever happened to me.
[00:44:19] Soad: Tell me. Oh my God, I would love to hear it.
[00:44:20] Stephanie: Um, so, so like this, this is an example of like why girls need mothers. Um, so [00:44:30] basically, uh, part, part of the context here is I was always the youngest in my class. My mom pushed to get me in early, so the cutoff was you had to be five by December of first grade, I [00:44:45] think.
Or wait, no. Six by December of first grade, five by December of kindergarten. I think that was the cutoff. My birthday was in January. So she pushed to have me admitted early, which meant I was always the youngest in the class. Now, that has some advantages if you're a gifted [00:45:00] kid, being a little like ahead, and I was gifted, but there are also disadvantages that we now know come with being the youngest in a class.
The youngest most likely to be diagnosed with ADHD and behavioral issues because they're immature relative to their peers. Um, they're also, you know, the [00:45:15] smallest, the most likely to get bullied, and I was bullied. And I, I didn't get diagnosed with ADHD until my 30s, but um, and that's a whole other can of worms.
But I had behavioral problems. And um, and the peer stuff, again, it's like how much [00:45:30] was a lack of socialization? How much was, um You know, the racial stuff that was not my fault that I was being scapegoated for, right? Like, but in any case, I was the youngest, and so that meant I was 10 when I started middle school.
And, you know, [00:45:45] middle school, that was a big change in environment for me from going to school with mostly Black kids across the street to then taking this bus with the Black kids from my neighborhood who had their culture and their values and their things that they were judging each other for, right?
Taste in hip-hop [00:46:00] and R&B, for example, right? Like, that was the culture on the bus, and I was getting made fun of for not fitting in on the bus. And then I'd get to the white kids' school, and I'd get made fun of for not fitting in with the white kids, 'cause they were the rich white kids and I was a poor white kid.
And [00:46:15] they, you know, their parents were movie directors, and they had the money for the fancy clothes and the gourmet food. And I was just this, like, poor little kid who didn't know
[00:46:25] Soad: anything. Wow.
[00:46:26] Stephanie: By the way, you know who was nicest to me?
[00:46:29] Soad: Who?
[00:46:29] Stephanie: The [00:46:30] Persians. The Persians.
[00:46:31] Soad: Hey. You're welcome. Yay. We did something right.
Good job. Okay, go.
[00:46:38] Stephanie: Shout out to Vanessa. Vanessa- Hey ... my Persian friend, was very nice. Aw,
[00:46:42] Soad: that's awesome.
[00:46:42] Stephanie: Um, yeah, she welcomed me into her little Persian [00:46:45] clique, but then, like, some of her other Persian friends came, and they were a little too fancy, and I was- Ugh ... like, not, not quite fancy enough for them. I
[00:46:51] Soad: know the type.
I know the
[00:46:52] Stephanie: type. Um. Um, anyway, uh, so middle school, I mean, that, that was a challenge. Like, I get [00:47:00] there and, like, there are these tall, pretty, fashionable girls walking around. They literally declare themselves the Fashion Police. That's their name.
[00:47:09] Soad: Stop.
[00:47:09] Stephanie: And they, they, like, basically ticket my outfit.
[00:47:12] Soad: Stop it.[00:47:15]
What do we do in that case?
[00:47:16] Stephanie: They're like, "We're the fashion police, and your shirt and your shoes do not match."
[00:47:21] Soad: Um- Oh my God, I love it.
[00:47:22] Stephanie: Yeah. Um, so that was middle school, right? And so here I am, right, the runt of the litter, the [00:47:30] youngest in the class, and, um, also malnourished, which has to do with the form that my body eventually takes.
Um, 'cause I think I was meant to be taller and thinner and more well-proportioned, honestly. But I- like, I've read about what poor childhood [00:47:45] nutrition does during puberty to, like, the shape that your body takes. Um, and so basically I remember getting made fun of in the locker room for not having a proper bra.
And so-
[00:47:59] Soad: So what, what [00:48:00] was the improper bra that you had? What was-
[00:48:02] Stephanie: Probably, like, nothing- Ah ... 'cause I was, like, 10 or 11. Like-
[00:48:05] Soad: So you had the, the bullet sticking out. You poor thing. Oh, no.
[00:48:10] Stephanie: So, um- Um ... so in my mind this is all [00:48:15] connected, like, sequentially. I have no idea how it actually played out. This, these events could've been a year apart, but what I remember is I remember being made fun of for not having a bra in the locker room.
I remember asking my mom to go bra shopping, and [00:48:30] then I remember somehow walking away from that with a bra that did not fit me at all, that was, like, totally the wrong size, and it was padded, and it was loose. Oh, God. So it [00:48:45] looked... I know, right? It looked like I sprouted breasts overnight- ... uh, but that I stuffed my bra though, because it was loose.
The texture on, like, you know? [00:49:00]
[00:49:00] Soad: Yes, I do.
[00:49:01] Stephanie: You know exactly what I'm saying. Every woman does. All the women in the audience-
[00:49:04] Announcer: Yes ...
[00:49:05] Stephanie: all the women are cringing for me Okay, so I was recently processing, I was, I was doing some autobiographical writing, and I started telling this [00:49:15] story, and I realized I'd never told my husband.
I've been with him six years, and I'm like, "I need to tell my husband this story of the most embarrassing thing that ever happened to me." And, and it's, like, only in reflecting on it that I'm like, of course my relationship with my mother was broken from that point [00:49:30] onward, if it wasn't already broken before.
She let that happen to me.
[00:49:33] Soad: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:49:34] Stephanie: It was her job-
[00:49:37] Soad: Yes ...
[00:49:37] Stephanie: to say, "Honey, that is not the right size and shape for you."
[00:49:40] Soad: Right. "
[00:49:41] Stephanie: That does not fit you. It looks ridiculous. [00:49:45] You will get made fun of if you wear that." Right. "We are not, I am not buying you that with my own money." Now, if you... Okay, here's, here's what a parent of a willful child needs to learn to do, by the way.
If the kid pushes back on a situation like that, you say, "Honey, I'm telling you [00:50:00] what's gonna happen if you wear that to school. Now, if you wanna learn the hard way, go ahead and buy it with your own money and see what happens." That's what you need to do if your kid's gonna try to make an idiotic decision, like wearing a bra that's gonna get her made fun of.
But my mom didn't have the [00:50:15] social awareness or the parenting skills to do that, so she let me walk away with this thing that then I went to school and they called me Stephanie. It's okay, you can [00:50:30] go ahead and laugh. Oh, by the way, for our audience, I once told her another story of one of the most mean things anyone ever said to me, but it was funny, and she cracked up too.
I forgive you. I love you[00:50:45]
That's middle school for you.
[00:50:48] Soad: That's the best name I've heard all year.
[00:50:50] Stephanie: Wow.
[00:50:50] Soad: Oh my God.
[00:50:52] Stephanie: And so this is the sort of stuff that I don't wanna hand people to be like, "Here, hurt me with this." But the thing is I'm finally strong enough that I'm like, "You can't hurt [00:51:00] me."
[00:51:00] Soad: Good.
[00:51:01] Stephanie: Right? And like, I- Like, I, I was a poor little middle school girl that didn't have proper mothering around her first bra.
That's what happened.
[00:51:09] Soad: So it's, it, what bothers me so much is [00:51:15] That you, you have gone through social media life and were careful to not share parts of you because there are bullies out there on social media [00:51:30] that would remind you of what it was like to be a child and live life again as, uh, as you did. And that, that bothers me.
And then it, and then it really does bother me more that it's like, okay, well she did [00:51:45] have such a tough childhood that that's even a thing for her. I'm so happy
[00:51:51] Stephanie: that you're finally at this place now where you're like, "Fuck it. I'm not, I'm not going to hide behind this anymore."
[00:51:56] Soad: Like this, if you're gonna make fun of me [00:52:00] as an adult online because of the hell that I went through as a child, screw you.
Like scr- like c- I'm gonna say fuck you that you're, you're even gonna consider doing that. And [00:52:15] normally I, I mean, with my clients I, I do this thing where it's like, okay, what percentage of what you just interpreted is actually reality? Like, what percentage of that is reality? And in actuality, I would really think that, [00:52:30] yeah, I would say 60 to 70% of people online are that way.
And for whatever reason, they're jerks, they're assholes, they've had bad childhoods, upbringings, and all that stuff. But what's scarier, and I think that you would agree, is that a some of them [00:52:45] are in our profession. Like, some of these people who do this attacking actually do what we do. That's what's disgusting to me.
Like they... Or some of them are moms. Some of them are, uh, actual parents of [00:53:00] children that will come attack you for something that you would share that's so vulnerable. That sickens me that I, I don't know how to solve this because it's something that does need to go away. It's something that, that people need to get a grip and grow up and be more [00:53:15] mature.
Because these stories that you share, although tragic, horrible, as you can see, I, I enjoy listening to them with you. Like, I laugh at some of these things because now we can, we can look back and laugh 'cause you've gone through, through some [00:53:30] of the healing that you need to go through. But that's what connected me to you, to kinda go, "God, this girl is human."
Like, there's a lot that she's been through that brought her to this place and I love hearing about it. Like, I wanna hear more, and that's what [00:53:45] I do. Like I- Girl, we've
[00:53:46] Stephanie: barely scratched the surface.
[00:53:47] Soad: Right? Like, I couldn't even imagine what high school was like
[00:53:53] Stephanie: I didn't complete high school
[00:53:56] Soad: Crazy. Okay, wait.
[00:53:59] Stephanie: Tell me about that. So I was, [00:54:00] I was this punching bag, right? Like, I was relentlessly mocked. I did have some friends, like I said. You know, I had my Persian friends. I had friends all over. Like, and, and my role to this day is I, I'm an, I'm a cross-pollinator at [00:54:15] the edge of several social ecosystems. That's where I do best, you know?
Um, not... I don't, I don't trust groups. But yeah, I mean, I had it rough, right? Not protected, and then, you know, if we're looking at where my relationship with my mother [00:54:30] really broke down, 'cause I'm not gonna say that she wasn't affectionate. Like, she loved me as a kid, right? And she, like, tried to provide for my needs, but she was just so clueless about so many things and, like, I ended up quite neglected.
And, you know, the, the bra story's just one of those things. [00:54:45] Like, like, do not, do not bring a, a girl into this world if you are not prepared to help her with these, like, rites of passage in middle school where she's gonna need support and guidance and confidence and, like... [00:55:00] And looking back on that moment, I just thought about, like...
I- I'll do this autobiographical work where I'll go back to a moment in time and like, okay, how would I advise someone to raise that child in that moment? What did that child need, that child who was me, right? And, like, it's so easy [00:55:15] for me now because I help parents craft scripts all day long, right? It's so easy for me to craft a script where I'm like, "Honey, we are not buying you that bra."
And again, what's the contingency plan if the kid's like, "No, I insist"? Okay, use your own money, learn the [00:55:30] hard way, and when you get made fun of, come back to me and we're gonna do this whole thing over again and we're gonna get you a bra that fits. And you know, even in the scenario where I wear the stupid bra to school and I do get made fun of, it didn't have to go on for two years like it did.[00:55:45]
It didn't have to go on like that. If I'd had a responsive, attentive parent who was paying attention to what was going on. The thing is, one of the things you have to do when you're raising a middle schooler is teach them how, how to talk back to mean kids, and unfortunately, [00:56:00] it's gonna have to sound like a middle schooler talking to a middle schooler.
It's not gonna sound like gentle parenting. It's not gonna sound adult, right? And so I actually, when I was doing this autobiographical work, I, like, scripted several comeback [00:56:15] lines for little Stephanie to use that a with-it parent would've given her. So, like, one of the kids who made fun of me was Matt. P- one of the kids who call me Stephanie, right?
And in my mind I was like, finally my, like, Stephanie the parent was [00:56:30] coaching Stephanie the child how to talk back to Matt, and it was things like, "How do you know so much about bras, Matt? You must spend a lot of time in your mom's closet."
[00:56:37] Soad: Ooh, I like it. And that's something totally a middle schooler would say.
[00:56:42] Stephanie: Yeah, and most parents don't wanna teach their middle [00:56:45] schooler to talk like a middle schooler, but if you want them to survive the gauntlet, you're gonna have to meet them at that level, right? It's, and it's about, it's about power. It's about showing kids that you can't be pushed around, that they're going to pay for it.
Like, if they, if they [00:57:00] mess with you, they're gonna be sorry, right? Like, you know? And that's what I, I didn't have.
[00:57:06] Soad: Right.
[00:57:06] Stephanie: Because again, because I didn't have playfulness, I didn't have humor, I didn't have anything to build my confidence at home, and I didn't have, um [00:57:15] An understanding of power dynamics. So I was just, like, beaten down by all of these things until I found my own spunk and was like, "Enough is enough," and I became a punk kid.
[00:57:29] Soad: Ooh.
[00:57:29] Stephanie: And [00:57:30] that had its strengths and weaknesses, and this is part of why I feel like I understand the ROGD girls so much, because I understand that desire to hide behind what I call the masc mask, the mask of masculinity, that tough shell. Like, I totally would've been one of these girls, 'cause I got [00:57:45] so tough.
Um, I wore the spiky collar. I shopped at Hot Topic, and that was just the beginning- Wow ... of it, 'cause then I got into real underground stuff and super anti-capitalist, and now I wasn't buying anything, right? Wow. I was dumpster diving and, you know. And [00:58:00] so-
[00:58:00] Soad: Crazy ...
[00:58:01] Stephanie: the thing is, I'd had so, um... And I, I was into really radical ideology.
Um, and I'd had, again, like, nutritional deficiencies for years, and then I went vegan for political reasons.
[00:58:14] Soad: Oh, wow.
[00:58:14] Stephanie: [00:58:15] And I'd had so little safety in my life that, and I was so dissociated from my body, that I understand why I ran away when, um, conflict at home came to a head when I was 16. Um, because I didn't have a [00:58:30] sense of be- being any more safe at home than I did on the streets.
[00:58:34] Soad: Oh my God.
[00:58:36] Stephanie: So I ran away, and, like, from 16 to 18, I was, like, in and out, back and forth. Um, I would come home, and then I'd leave again. [00:58:45] I... And, and my mom was doing the same thing in that situation, um, that she had been in all these other situations, which was being worried sick, being clearly in despair over how I was turning out as a child, [00:59:00] but not knowing how to influence the situation meaningfully.
[00:59:04] Soad: Some- okay, so something that I notice with a lot of parents who are ROGD parents is that many of [00:59:15] them have said, "I don't know what happened. Like, I don't... My kid went to school and, and came back, and this happened. Like, I don't even... Where did this come from?" And- It's just a matter of asking your kid, "How's your day going?
How, how was your [00:59:30] day today? What are you learning in school? What classes do you..." Simple things like that just to be engaged with your child and their day-to-day. I get it. We get busy. We, we have so many other things to do. They come home, they gotta get homework, you gotta cook dinner, whatever. [00:59:45] I understand the busyness of it.
I say this to say it's so important for you to just engage with your child with the simplest of task of going, "What are you learning in school? What's going on for you over there?" Had your mom just said out [01:00:00] loud what she possibly was thinking, like, "Oh, that bra looks funny," possibly just said out loud like, "Oh, that bra looks funny," that ended up...
So just that comment might have made you look at it and go, "Oh, you're right." And then she s- and, and then maybe said, "Well, [01:00:15] are you comfortable?" Ask, engage. Engage with this daughter of yours. Engage with her. "Do you want a new thing? Do you... How's it going at school? What's happening there? How's life? What are you learning in class?"
Like, there is just some ki- some reason [01:00:30] parents do not feel like those simple questions matter, and they truly do. They make such a difference if you just ask.
[01:00:38] Stephanie: Let me play devil's advocate and speak in, in their defense. Um, uh, this is something I, [01:00:45] I teach them as well, is that, uh, children do not necessarily have the skills to recognize and communicate what they're feeling.
Um, and, and those questions, uh, like I'm sure [01:01:00] there are parents listening to this who are like, "Oh, I definitely ask my kid those questions, and it's nothing. Fine." You know? And, and so we do have to get clever about how we ask questions or how we maybe don't necessarily ask questions but bring up certain topics in a way that's gonna make them wanna [01:01:15] comment.
You know, like, and, and, uh, you know, I work with my clients on those strategies for the kids who aren't talking. Um, but one of the problems is that, um, when kids are born, they have no language skills, and you're supposed to [01:01:30] read how they're feeling and interpret their cries. And, and then as they grow up, they have more and more language skills, but it's so easy to overestimate the, that skill.
And, and the thing is, again, language is this [01:01:45] incredible gift for transmitting information from one head into another. But kids will very easily make the mistake way past the age that you think they will of assuming that you know whatever they know. Now, that's a very, very young childlike state of consciousness, to assume that [01:02:00] you know what I know.
But the last vestiges of it are definitely still there in middle school and high school, so it doesn't occur to them To tell you what you need to know. Like, and, and [01:02:15] I've seen this, like, with our middle schoolers. Like, I remember one day, like, our middle schooler getting really frustrated with me for not knowing something that happened in his day that he did not tell me.
And-
[01:02:26] Soad: I love it.
[01:02:27] Stephanie: And, like, I- the moment passed, and it was [01:02:30] a while ago, I can't remember what it was, but, like, you know, there i- there is that really irrational nature to middle schooler behavior. And so, yeah, like, the work is on your shoulders to make a lot of guesses and, like, [01:02:45] and I do teach techniques for bringing that stuff out.
But yeah, I mean, yeah, it's, it's... That, that bra looks funny. If it looks funny to me, and I'm your mom who loves you, how's it gonna look [01:03:00] to those brutal savages called middle schoolers?
[01:03:04] Soad: Yes. Yes. Like, I can see why you say that your mom probably had a little touch of autism. It's like there, there was no connection there for her to kind of connect the dots [01:03:15] between, like, oh, if this is happening, then this must be happening as well.
Like, there, that she just didn't quite do that for you.
[01:03:23] Stephanie: And interpreting behavior.
[01:03:25] Soad: Yes. So okay, that's a good question, actually, that you, that we [01:03:30] brought up here When a parent sees some kind of behavior that maybe is l- that makes them kind of go, "Huh, that's new," should they say something? Should they do some- Like, what, what would be the step to [01:03:45] take when that happens?
'Cause I think parents tend to ignore it and act like it didn't happen. Um, at least that's what I see is, like, they'll be like, "Oh, okay, that was weird. I'm just gonna ignore it." And maybe in some cases we do, we could ignore it, but in, in s- other [01:04:00] cases, what, what do you think should happen next since you work a lot with
[01:04:05] Stephanie: that with this?
Well, it's so interesting because it's like on the one hand, just naming the behavior as an observation can be a really powerful tool, but the other thing about kids that age is they're [01:04:15] extremely sensitive to embarrassment and scrutiny. So you might not think that you're trying to humiliate or scrutinize them, but just noticing their behavior, they can react as if you are.
And so that creates a, a, a tension, and [01:04:30] one way that I sometimes like to resolve that tension is to find the most neutral, non-judgmental way of describing the behavior, and then to pair it with your best guess. And, and [01:04:45] not because you think your best guess is correct, but because it shows kids the gap that if they don't use their words to fill in the blanks for you, you will fill in the blanks incorrectly.
So sometimes we can even do [01:05:00] this with a guess that we think is probably incorrect. Like, "I notice you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and if you don't wanna talk about it, that's okay, but I'm gonna have to assume that it means blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And then some part of them fights that. They're like, "Well, that's not what it means."
[01:05:14] Soad: Right.
[01:05:14] Stephanie: [01:05:15] And it's like, "Okay, well, if that's not what it means, can you help me understand what it does mean?"
[01:05:20] Soad: Yes.
[01:05:20] Stephanie: Right? So you're kind of giving them the choice of, like, either you can fill me in on what's going on here, or I'm gonna have to assume it means this and [01:05:30] act accordingly, and they don't like that.
So that'll make them try a little bit harder to
[01:05:35] Soad: Right. Oh, I like that, Stephanie. To... Yeah. That's good. That's smart. Okay. '
[01:05:40] Stephanie: Cause it's so much easier at that age to know what you don't want than what you do want, so sometimes if you [01:05:45] just give them something to reject, what they reject is a starting point.
Right. And then if you're flexible and adaptive, you can go with them, then re- then pushing against you is okay.
[01:05:54] Soad: Yeah. Did your mom ever ask you how your day was?
[01:05:59] Stephanie: Oh, I'm sure she [01:06:00] did.
[01:06:00] Soad: Okay. Okay.
[01:06:00] Stephanie: I'm sure she... I mean, there's very little I remember, honestly, but I, I'm just saying, like You know, and maybe I was fine, nothing.
Mm-hmm. You know?
[01:06:11] Soad: Mm-hmm.
[01:06:11] Stephanie: Like maybe- Right ... I was like that.
[01:06:13] Soad: Did you ever come home and tell her, "I just [01:06:15] got beat up. I just got bullied"?
[01:06:17] Stephanie: Oh, I'm sure I did. Like, I remember one of the, um, one of the worst in middle school, uh, on the bus home a girl poured a bottle of lotion on my head from the seat [01:06:30] behind me, and I was so wrecked that day.
Like, it was right before I got home, and it was a long bus ride home, too. Jesus. So, like, I just... I don't remember if my mom was home yet or if she got home [01:06:45] shortly thereafter, but that, you know, things like if they would push me hard enough, I would definitely, like go crying to my mom for comfort. But here's, here's the other thing, and this is, we're gonna get into some really uncomfortable territory obviously in this conversation, um, because [01:07:00] I did threaten suicide as a teenager, and this is something that comes up a lot in the families that I coach.
I teach them how to handle suicide threats. Um, for me, uh, this, this is part of, you know, how teenagers communicate. It's very black and [01:07:15] white. You know, su- a suicide threat over a particular issue is a way of saying, "I find the distress associated with this issue so overwhelming that I need you to know that it's, like all or [01:07:30] nothing for me."
And so for me, what that was, um, was if we don't move, if we don't leave this neighborhood. That's what I was threatening suicide over, and so she dragged me to therapy over that, and it turned out years later we both discovered [01:07:45] neither of us liked the therapist. Um, so it's like why were we seeing that therapist- Right
if neither of us liked her? Um, but my mom being, again, stuck in that concrete way of thinking, the response was, "Well, I can't do that. I don't have the money to move." [01:08:00] And there was a response to where this was coming from for me, which is, okay, the message though your kid is sending you is that there's a situation associated with this neighborhood that is so [01:08:15] intolerable, right?
And so that was a point where I was making friends with kids who lived in apartments that were smaller than our condo, but in a nicer neighborhood. And I was seeing that that was a way to live too, right? And I was saying, "I'm willing to give [01:08:30] up this condo and this, you know, the things I like about living here in order to live in a place where I'm not an ethnic minority whose safety is in question over that."
Right. Right?
[01:08:41] Announcer: Right.
[01:08:41] Stephanie: I wanted a shot at some kind of [01:08:45] normalcy. Like, I knew I was gonna be a s- you know, have a single mom, be an only child, you know, be on a teacher's salary, not have the money for the nice clothes and the gourmet food. But, like, the idea of, like, maybe I could [01:09:00] find other people a little bit more close to our socioeconomic status, but where there was safety and where there was, um, more inclusion, more belonging.
[01:09:12] Soad: Mm-hmm.
[01:09:12] Stephanie: You know? Right.
[01:09:14] Soad: Did you ever attempt? [01:09:15]
[01:09:16] Stephanie: No.
[01:09:18] Soad: Okay. Thank God
[01:09:20] Stephanie: But I did, um, I did end up in the ER from alcohol poisoning- On purpose? ... which was interpreted, it was interpreted as a [01:09:30] suicide attempt, and it wasn't. It was- Okay ... it was, I was binge drinking. I was, I was a wild, I was binge drinking with bad people, too.
Bad, bad people. And, um, they started passing [01:09:45] pills around, and I was like- Oh, shit ... "I'll take a random pill."
[01:09:48] Soad: Right. Right.
[01:09:49] Stephanie: Well, that random pill was Xanax, and I had- Oh my God ... like 40 ounces of malt liquor in my system.
[01:09:59] Soad: Oh, you poor... [01:10:00] How old were you?
[01:10:01] Stephanie: 14.
[01:10:02] Soad: Jesus. Mm-hmm. Stephanie.
[01:10:04] Stephanie: I know. It's crazy. I have a 14-year-old now, and I'm like, "Oh, that's a 14-year-old?
That's little bitty kid."
[01:10:11] Soad: Right?
[01:10:12] Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [01:10:15] I should probably interject for clarification here at this point as well. So I only briefly describe with Soad the incident where I was binge drinking at 14 and wound up in the emergency room. Um, I [01:10:30] did almost die. Uh, my blood pressure was low enough that I would have died if I hadn't gotten medical intervention.
This was 1999, before most people had cell phones, but, uh, fortunately, this [01:10:45] event happened in a place where I was able to be seen in a public place, and there was a doctor hanging out in a coffee shop who knew that she needed to call 911 and who had a cell phone. Um, so thank God for her. Um, I basically [01:11:00] narrowly escaped being gang raped, because I was hanging out with people who had no business giving a 14-year-old alcohol and pills, and they clearly had malicious intentions.
But thankfully, my best friend and her boyfriend were there, and then they got me to a [01:11:15] bathroom in a coffee shop where the doctor saw me, who called 911. I was in the hospital for two days. Um, I woke up briefly in the ambulance, and my only thoughts were My mom's gonna kill me, and I'm gonna [01:11:30] miss the concert tonight.
Um, 'cause I was going to a punk show that night. It was, like, the last day of ninth grade, and I was celebrating by getting really drunk. So yeah, I was in the hospital for two days, like, threw up charcoal, went through detox. Obviously, my mom [01:11:45] was worried sick. I do apologize that the way that I told this story did not emphasize, like, the terror of what that was like for her as a parent.
Um, and that did change my relationship with alcohol, um, 'cause I'd been [01:12:00] really into binge drinking prior to that at ages 13 and 14 as a punk kid. Um, after that, I never quite enjoyed alcohol the same way, went through a little bit of a straight edge phase. But it did set me up for another [01:12:15] type of trouble, because I was very grounded that summer, um, and I didn't have much to do, and this was the early days of the internet.
And so that is how I ended up [01:12:30] in contact with another person who had no business talking to a 14-year-old girl. He was the cool guy I looked up to who taught at the guitar place where I took lessons from another guy, and it honestly [01:12:45] should've been such a red flag for my mom that there was this weirdness around why he wasn't allowed to teach me guitar in the first place.
Like, when we first went to that place about guitar lessons, I thought he was so cool. He was Mr. Punk Rock Guy. He was [01:13:00] friends with my favorite bands, and I wanted to study from him, but for some reason, he wasn't allowed to work with me. That should've been a red flag. It took me years to realize that he was probably a known pedophile He [01:13:15] was 31.
I was 14. It was bad news. I snuck out with him that summer. Very bad news. So later in the conversation with Soad when we end, I say, "Yeah, I didn't exactly get into my troubles with men, but that's the sort of thing that happens [01:13:30] to a fatherless girl." So I got into some trouble with him that summer, and while I'm putting all my cards on the table, that's what we know happened.
Um, and this [01:13:45] was kind of the beginning of internet grooming. It was because of late '90s AOL that this fricking pedophile was able to connect with a vulnerable young girl who looked up to [01:14:00] him and who he knew did not have a protective father figure in the home. That happened the summer after I OD'd and almost died.
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[01:14:48] Soad: It, it's wild to think that you withheld so much of this about yourself because you, you're so afraid that people are gonna use this against you.
[01:14:58] Stephanie: Well, that's not the only [01:15:00] reason. Okay. It's also 'cause, like, I don't wanna be defined by it, too. Right. Like, I think, I think what I have to offer intellectually, um, that's not about me is more interesting than the stuff that is about [01:15:15] me autobiographically, if that makes sense.
[01:15:17] Soad: It does, and it's interesting because for me, it gives what you have to offer intellectually more meat, because I do know so much more
[01:15:26] Stephanie: about you.
And I do. Like, I self-reference it as needed. In my coaching [01:15:30] work- Yeah ... like, I will occasionally tell families a story that I think is relevant, or, like, in my program for parents, I have a, "Why me? Why am I doing this work?" video pretty early on, and I share a little bit of autobiographical [01:15:45] information about, like, I would've been one of these kids, and, you know, here's what it looked like in the '90s.
Um, and, and a lot of parents, like, leave supportive comments on that. They're like, "Oh, I, like, thank you for doing this, and I can see how much you have in common with my kid, and [01:16:00] I can see why, like, you're, because of y- your past, you're well cut out to be doing this work." But again, it's that fine line where y- like, the moment I start saying, "Yeah, I was really poorly parented.
I was neglected. My father was an asshole, and my mom, she tried, God [01:16:15] bless her, but she really did not see me and did not see what I needed, and, like, I got really hurt as a result," like, you know, you start heading into that territory, and there's always someone who's, um, going to [01:16:30] use that to say that... Well, they're, they're going to interpret my advice for parents through a cynical lens, right?
They're gonna think I'm, like, anti-parent, because that's what I get accused of whenever I have anything critical to say in [01:16:45] public. Now, in private, people pay me dearly for my honest feedback, and it's accurate and it's beneficial, and then they tell me that I saved their family. You know?
[01:16:54] Soad: Yeah, of course. Of course.
[01:16:56] Stephanie: But it's in public, the people who aren't invested, the people who [01:17:00] are doom scrolling social media looking for someone to judge, looking for something to pile on, not looking for genuine help and solutions, not asking what is this person's credentials and who are they talking about when they say this critical thing or, you know.
It's those people, they're not, they're [01:17:15] not the people that I'm ultimately here for.
[01:17:17] Soad: Right. Right.
[01:17:18] Stephanie: I'm here for the people who are sincere and hardworking and they're, they're drawn to my work and they do their research on it because they are really looking for, like, what do I need to do to get my kid out of that?
And, [01:17:30] you know, when I have those relationships with my clients built on trust, then there's, I think, room for who I am as a person. And so every now and then I, I will share something. But it's also, like, my life was such a mess. Like, I was- [01:17:45] I don't know too many people who had the kind of adolescence I had, and I think it's because, A, it wasn't a lot of us who were hitchhiking around the country at 17, and B, the kids who were, like, they're dead or in jail now.
[01:18:00] They're not... They don't have a master's degree and a, a meaningful vocation.
[01:18:04] Soad: Your life sounds like it was so chaotic and out of control. When do you feel like you kind of gained control over yourself
[01:18:13] Announcer: and your life?
[01:18:14] Stephanie: So I [01:18:15] was so burnt out approaching the age of 18. I felt so old. I felt like I'd seen so much.
I mean, I'd been arrested at demonstrations, and run from tear gas canisters, and woken up in freezing cold abandoned [01:18:30] buildings, and I'd seen so much of life. Like, I'd woken up next to hypodermic needles in an abandoned field. I had gotten caught between two moving trains. I had, like, seen so much of [01:18:45] life by the time I turned 18 that, um, when I crossed paths with this young man who was obviously struggling with addiction, um, but who had spent some time in Hawaii, and he told me all about it, and it sounded very romantic, I was like, "I'm going [01:19:00] there."
And so I had something like $3,500, which was a ton of money to me back then. Um, and the reason I had that money was not because I'd worked a job. I thought that I was gonna overthrow capitalism [01:19:15] before I ever worked a job. Um, but it was because I... So all this anti-capitalist nonsense, by the way, that the kids are into these days, they're such softies.
I'm like, when I was an anti-capitalist, um, I, I lived [01:19:30] a life of, of squalor and discomfort, okay? Like, that's how I lived according-
[01:19:34] Soad: Yeah. I didn't have an i- right. I didn't have my iPhone with my laptop- Yeah ... in front of me. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
[01:19:39] Stephanie: But, um, so, uh, let's see. What? The reason I had that money [01:19:45] was because I'd been wrongfully arrested at a demonstration, and some of my peers' parents filed a class action lawsuit 'cause there was a bunch of minors who got swept up, and we hadn't actually broken any laws.
Um, and- [01:20:00] Oh, wow ... so there was a class action lawsuit, and I walked away with $3,500, and that was like... I was like, "This is my life savings now."
[01:20:07] Announcer: I love it.
[01:20:10] Soad: So cute. Oh. So you took that and went to Hawaii?
[01:20:14] Stephanie: I [01:20:15] took that and went to Hawaii on a one-way ticket, and I was like, "I'm gonna live on the beach and drink coconuts," and I did.
[01:20:25] Soad: Wow.
[01:20:25] Stephanie: Like, I lived on the beach and drank coconuts. I, I work traded [01:20:30] on farms. Wow. Um, and you know, the thing is, like, with all of that chaos and darkness that I was involved in, there were, like, morals and ideals that were trying to come out of me, however, like, grandiose and unhinged [01:20:45] they, the form that they took at that age, right?
And so much of my parent coaching work is based on that. It's like there is something trying to emerge in this young person, something unique to their soul, their values that, like, it takes this grandiose and unhinged form when they're 16, [01:21:00] 17, 18, but there's something trying to emerge there. And so I had values that were developing somehow, and, like, and some of those...
Like, I was very misanthropic because I thought humans were a scourge upon the earth. I thought we were a cancer, right? And I thought, [01:21:15] like, humans bad, nature good. I'm gonna just go live with nature, right? So I did. Um, it was a lot harder to be self-sufficient and sustainable than I thought. Like, I... You can't just, like, start a permaculture farm from [01:21:30] nothing-
[01:21:30] Soad: Right
[01:21:30] Stephanie: with n- no knowledge and no resources. But, like, I met the people doing that. I met the people living on the land, and I, you know, did a little work trade. And I was still malnourished, so I didn't have a lot of energy, because it took me a long time to realize h- [01:21:45] that I needed protein, right? So, like, in Hawaii, I was just, like, I was eating lots of fruit, drinking lots of coconuts, but, like, I started eating a little bit of fresh caught fish.
Like, every now and then if someone would, like, catch a fish and share it, I'd be like, "That seems ethical [01:22:00] enough. I'll eat it." Um, but, like, and, like, a little bit of eggs here and there. But, like, I still... Like, I did not get enough protein from age six to 26. Wow. Like, until I started eating meat in my late 20s.
But in Hawaii, [01:22:15] I, I healed a lot because I was just one with nature, you know? I was, I was so close to the earth. I was just being held and washed clean by Mother Nature. I was swimming in the ocean every day. I was drinking lots of coconuts. I was getting lots of [01:22:30] sunshine. I was, um... And I got in touch with my innocence there, like, my, my innocent love of nature.
I was just so close to the wildlife. And, um, that was, that was how I started to put myself back [01:22:45] together. But unfortunately, I was vulnerable to getting sucked into cults, and so I got sucked into cults. 'Cause I was, like... I think, um, in that environment without, um, any [01:23:00] intellectual work to do, I became very curious about spirituality and God and, um, mystical things.
And so I became interested in Ayurveda and yoga and Hindu philosophy, and that led me to [01:23:15] this Hindu spiritual teacher living the life of a so-called sadhu, which was basically like a renunciate just living with a loincloth on the beach, smoking chillum out of a conch shell, um, chanting to [01:23:30] Kali and Shiva.
Jesus. And, and those are the people I started hanging out with.
[01:23:33] Soad: Wow.
[01:23:34] Stephanie: Yeah, so then... And I kind of brainwashed myself, 'cause I was really interested in this, like, esoteric philosophy of transformation. And I realized that I had all this [01:23:45] trauma, although I didn't call it trauma. But I, like, I knew where I'd come from, and I just wanted to feel so far away from it as possible.
Wow. I just wanted to, like, be, like, bathed in the natural and spiritual energy of the island and of the chanting and [01:24:00] all of that. And so I would go into these, like, ritual ceremonies smoking chillum, which is a traditional, like, Hindu mixture of tobacco and cannabis, in this traditional way where we'd do in, like, a ritual ceremony- [01:24:15] Um, and, and I would actually, like, go into my mind and try to erase my memories.
Oh my gosh. I brainwashed... Yeah, I was trying to get rid of my trauma by, in these ceremonies.
[01:24:26] Soad: Oh my
[01:24:27] Stephanie: God. So I, when, by the time I came back, like, [01:24:30] I did not have a lot of memory intact. Yeah. Yeah, so I was, like, following this spiritual teacher and just going wherever my little crew went and staying on whatever farm they were staying on, and just only [01:24:45] interested in learning about God through this Hindu framework and through this esoteric spiritual practice.
Um, but there were some dark sides to that, and one day I saw it. I saw, um, [01:25:00] the demonic energy that they were channeling and how he was using these ceremonies to control people. And then I had to walk away from my little community, and then I had nothing. I, I had no money. I had no friends. I had no [01:25:15] possessions.
Um, I mean, it, it was possible back then in the early 2000s in Hawaii to just, like, live with very few possessions, you know? Couple sarongs, like... And, um, I had nothing, and I was just like, [01:25:30] "Well, like, I can't, I can't be this anymore 'cause there's something not right here." And so then I was really at God's mercy, and some, like, random people kinda took me in while I [01:25:45] was figuring out what I was gonna do.
And- Really? ... eventually, yeah. And eventually I was like, "I think I have to go home now."
[01:25:54] Soad: Wow.
[01:25:55] Stephanie: So I went home- And home being back
[01:25:56] Soad: to mom's? ...
[01:25:56] Stephanie: LA, back to LA, and that was a rough transition. Wow. 'Cause [01:26:00] I was, by then I'd been living in such, like, harmony with the Earth for a year and a half, just ocean breeze, planting seeds.
Like I, I was, you know, eating fresh herbs that I grew [01:26:15] myself, and like, and then I was, like, in LA, and I was so lost. And by that point, all I d- I wanted to be a saint. Like, I, I had the idea of, like, being just a spiritual saint with my li- that's what I [01:26:30] was gonna do, okay?
[01:26:30] Soad: Right,
[01:26:31] Stephanie: right. And, and I didn't know how to do that.
Um, and, uh, and so then I ended up joining the Hare Krishnas.
So I went from one Hindu cult to another. I went from [01:26:45] my, like, little spiritual crew in Hawaii to this other charismatic teacher who'd been a, a disciple of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the Indian guy who came from India in the '60s [01:27:00] to bring the Hare Krishna- Oh ... it's called Krishna consciousness, to the West.
So I, like, I mean, I was interested in learning Sanskrit and, like, ragas and, and all that kind of stuff, and studying the Srimad-Bhagavatam and the Bhagavad Gita. And [01:27:15] so I found this group of people in LA and this, like, this is, this, it just gets crazier. Like, my story d- like, uh, part of the
[01:27:23] Soad: re- I mean, do, okay.
Do you see why people, people who are list- do you see why I deeded this episode out? Well,
[01:27:28] Stephanie: it's also- [01:27:30]
[01:27:30] Soad: Because
[01:27:30] Stephanie: there's so much richness ... the reason, the reason I don't tell my story is also 'cause it's so crazy that people will not believe me. Like, it's, I'm like, "Oh yeah, I was a Hare Krishna. I was a vegan. I was an anarchist.
I was a dumpster diver, hitchhiker, like, work trader on organic farms. I was, [01:27:45] I..." Like, like, people are like- I love it ... "You can't have been all of those things." And I'm like, "I was."
[01:27:51] Soad: And I lived in Compton, got beat up by Black people. Yes. Which was, yeah, just, you know, my life. No big deal.
[01:27:56] Stephanie: Like, I've done it all, you know?
Wow. And, um, so yeah, [01:28:00] I mean, I, I joined the Hare Krishnas, and I had this little, like, ragtag crew of, like- That's great ... this, like, older man with all of these adult children who, like, some of them were my age, and, and he'd had, like, five different wives. His life was a mess. Oh, [01:28:15] my- And he had this, like, art restoration business that I helped him with.
It was, like, this, like, ashram, this, like, makeshift ashram in a Hollywood warehouse. And we would get up at 4:00 in the morning and do this, like, elaborate ceremony. And I loved the music. I still love the [01:28:30] music. That's crazy. And I love the, like, sensory nature of the rituals, and I love just, like, sitting around, having these, like, abstract theoretical conversations about God for, like, hours every morning, and then cooking these big [01:28:45] elaborate meals that you're offering to the deities on the altar.
[01:28:48] Soad: Wow.
[01:28:49] Stephanie: Um, but again, whenever you get into something like that, you're looking at potentially someone who's using that to control vulnerable young people and captivate their [01:29:00] attention. And so again, like, things came to a head, and I was like, "This man is trying to control me." And so I got out of there. Crazy enough, he ended up marrying a friend of mine a few years later, and there was, like, a 40-year age gap, so that [01:29:15] was crazy.
[01:29:15] Soad: Oh, that's-
[01:29:16] Stephanie: Yeah ...
[01:29:16] Soad: yuck. That's just
[01:29:17] Stephanie: ugly.
[01:29:17] Soad: Yeah, yeah. Okay, gross.
[01:29:19] Stephanie: Um, so- Wow ... after all of that, after all of that, um, 'cause I was 18 and 19 in Hawaii, and then I was 19 and 20 back in LA with the Hare [01:29:30] Krishnas, and then I... Like, the whole time I was just praying, like, "God," like, "tell me what to do with my life. I know I have a purpose."
And, um, again, malnourished, so my brain wasn't working properly. Then, uh, God sends strange [01:29:45] messengers sometimes. So, um, my father's third wife, um, was a very... She was very unhappy in their marriage, and she was, I believe, Romanian. Um, and I think he was her ticket out of the [01:30:00] country. Um, and, like, I barely knew her, but then she came into my life for a brief window of time And like parented me in the way, like in a way that was totally opposite from anything my mother was [01:30:15] ever willing to do.
Mm-hmm. And it's that sort of like hard-ass position that I sometimes teach softies to take. Yeah. Of like, "Young lady, this is what we're doing."
[01:30:22] Soad: Right.
[01:30:22] Stephanie: And so this woman comes into my life who barely knows me, and I remember her and her like Romanian or Bulgarian or Ukrainian, I'm sorry, I [01:30:30] can't remember. But her Eastern European accent-
[01:30:32] Soad: Uh-huh
[01:30:32] Stephanie: lecturing me like, "Young lady, you have a good head on your shoulders and we need to get you into college." And I was like, "College? Like what?"
[01:30:40] Soad: Wow.
[01:30:42] Stephanie: And, um, yeah, [01:30:45] she, she intervened. Amazing. And I think I was... Like, at that point I was like, "What do you mean college?" Like, that's so mainstream, and like I've been on this such a different path and, [01:31:00] um, but also there was a fear that I couldn't do it, a fear that I couldn't like assimilate into normal society.
And, um I needed someone to [01:31:15] walk me through the practical steps, and that's what she did. And, um, convinced me to just do a couple years at community college, and I did that, and right [01:31:30] away was back to being a straight-A student. Like, I'd been a straight-A student, and then I'd been a really bad student, and then I was a dropout.
Yeah. And I was, like, o- off the face of the planet for four years, and then I came back and I was like, "Oh, I know how to be a straight-A student. Okay."
[01:31:40] Soad: Right.
[01:31:41] Stephanie: Um, and pretty quickly one of my teachers [01:31:45] recognized that I had good tutoring potential and hired me for a tutoring job at the career center for, um...
They had, like, a program that had some funding for tutoring for certain type of students. And so I, like, got a job, and then [01:32:00] made a friend who invited me to share her apartment. And this is another story that I sometimes share every now and then when I share a little biographical detail. It's the story of that friend, because she was cuckoo.
Um, and I witnessed her have a breakdown, have [01:32:15] a, um, a manic episode. Um, and she was... During that episode she was, um, she had psychotic delusions. She thought I was a witch casting spells on her.
[01:32:25] Soad: Oh.
[01:32:25] Stephanie: Um, and she kicked me out of my home, and it was a whole thing. That was the [01:32:30] one who later married my former spiritual teacher.
Um-
[01:32:32] Soad: Wow, okay.
[01:32:33] Stephanie: Yeah. So she had bipolar I disorder and borderline personality disorder, and she actually told me that about herself but I didn't know what it meant. And she told me it with an air of like, "Oh, I don't really believe that these..." But, like, [01:32:45] the history was there, the signs were there. Like, I saw her have a manic episode and go crazy.
[01:32:49] Soad: Wow.
[01:32:50] Stephanie: Um, that's the clinical term for it- Right ... for everyone who's gonna judge me for everything I say. Um-
[01:32:55] Soad: Let 'em.
[01:32:56] Stephanie: But look, she kicked me out of my apartment, okay?
[01:32:59] Soad: Yeah.
[01:32:59] Stephanie: But [01:33:00] I kinda got on my feet. I was like... And that was me, like, figuring out how to be, like, a normie. Like, and I, I was not good at it, but I was like, "I have to, like, make it work in society."
Now mind you, the whole time I was this, like, vegan anarchist teenager kid, I really thought [01:33:15] the world was ending any minute now. Like, I thought that capitalism was, like, just about to be overthrown, and that society was gonna collapse because we were poisoning the environment and it was all about to fall apart.
And like- This is amazing. Wow. And
[01:33:28] Soad: then
[01:33:29] Stephanie: in [01:33:30] Hawaii I was trying to, like, learn how to live off grid. So the idea that like, oh, like, all this infrastructure is still here, it's not going anywhere, it was, it was weird. I was like, "I guess I have to, like, make this work somehow." I did, um, volunteer with [01:33:45] this, like, sustainability nonprofit on campus, and, like, volunteered with the yoga club.
And so I, like, started, like, getting involved in, like, things that were, like, a bridge between my values and the normal world. Um- And the whole time I [01:34:00] was still just like, "What's my purpose?" Like, I don't wanna do anything that harms the planet. I don't wanna do anything that harms people. Um, not a big fan of, like, how society is structured, so, like, what am I doing here?
And if I can't, like, go off grid and [01:34:15] create this, like, you know, perfect utopia, what am I supposed to do with my life? Um, and, uh Eventually I, I mean, time passed and I just, like, [01:34:30] figured out how to, like, kind of pretend to be a little bit more normal than I was. 'Cause I really felt like so different from my peers with everything I'd been through at that point, but, um-
[01:34:38] Soad: No kidding.
Such a rich life in comparison to the people that you were probably around.
[01:34:42] Stephanie: I eventually transferred to UC Santa Cruz and I, [01:34:45] as a transfer student, I got into both Santa Cruz and Berkeley, borrowed my mom's car, took a road trip, saw both... I, I got to Santa Cruz and I'm like, "I don't even wanna go on to Berkeley.
I need to be in this environment." Yeah. I love the peacefulness. Yeah. I love just, I felt so at home there. Still [01:35:00] love it there. And so I did two years at Santa Cruz. And I chose environmental studies as my major because, again, I was like, "How do I, like, do good and not harm," right? Yeah. And so I thought something in the environmental field, at least I would, like, be on [01:35:15] that track.
Um, studying environmental issues was hard for me because, you know, I was learning about ecological collapse and extinction of species and climate change and all this kind of stuff, and it w- it felt like just, [01:35:30] again, this, like, massive burden on my shoulders, which was kind of the feeling of my whole life, just like, "Oh, the world is such a crazy, terrible place."
Um, and so I didn't really... Like, I had a hard time choosing a direction within the environmental field. [01:35:45] Um, and then when I graduated, I, um, I didn't wanna leave Santa Cruz, which meant my job prospects were limited. So instead of working in the environmental field, I was just, like, [01:36:00] working odd jobs. I was, like, working the front desk at my friend's neurofeedback center and, like, trimming weed.
Because back then weed in California was illegal, and you could get $15 an hour for just sitting around trimming it. Um,
[01:36:12] Soad: Seriously, yeah.
[01:36:14] Stephanie: True. [01:36:15] And, um, and, and then I was just... But, but, but in Santa Cruz I had a wonderful social life. I finally felt at home because here I was this total weirdo with a very [01:36:30] spiritual side, and I was accepted.
I found my kind of people there in the dance community, in the kirtan. So the thing I really loved from the Hindu rituals I s- I kept doing, the music part.
[01:36:42] Soad: Yes.
[01:36:42] Stephanie: And that became a big part of my life. So, so throughout my [01:36:45] 20s I was known and loved for being a kirtan musician. I, I played harmo- harmonium. I played mridanga drum, which is a clay drum.
Ooh. I led chants. I, like, I knew a lot of, like, Sanskrit worship songs, basically. Um, I eventually had to let that [01:37:00] go, like, many years later because the cosmology fell apart and I was like, th- um, this isn't m- it's my, it's not my religion, it's not my culture. All I know is, like, I feel a sense of oneness when I do this, and I was sort of sad to let it go, but it was, it was a big part of my life throughout my 20s.
And it was something that gave me my, [01:37:15] um- a direction and a, a place in society, like, because I had friends who valued that, so.
[01:37:21] Soad: Right.
[01:37:22] Stephanie: You know, a lot of my friends were like, they loved that I was the female drummer. Um- That's cute ... and they, they loved that I, I, like, led these songs and [01:37:30] stuff. Yeah. And so it gave me my purpose within, it gave me a, a sense of value in my friend group.
I also got really into doing astrology readings for my friends then. And so how this incorporates into what I do with parents now is I call this the party trick. So [01:37:45] when we talk about young adult identity and confidence and competence, um, part of how especially quirky young adults, um, or ones who didn't fit in, you know, like part of how they find that is through [01:38:00] having some kind of role that's like when I'm in a group, I can do this for the group, and that gives value.
So for me, my party trick was I was the musician. I did astrology readings. I- that was the value that I contributed, and it made me popular amongst my, [01:38:15] my Santa Cruz friends. Right. And so it, that was really when I felt at home and accepted and loved and kind of like integrated into normal society in a way, but still my weird self, you know?
Um, so that was my time in Santa Cruz and I was really [01:38:30] sad to leave it, but I eventually, um, you know, I was praying for direction there, and a friend mentioned this counseling grad program at CIIS in San Francisco, California Institute of Integral Studies, and that was, uh, [01:38:45] just a light bulb for me. I was like, "That's what I wanna do."
And I think it stemmed from the experience I had of feeling connected to people through astrology, which I know people are gonna judge me for that, but it gave me, astrology gave me a scaffolding, a language for [01:39:00] talking about psychological stuff.
[01:39:03] Soad: Right.
[01:39:04] Stephanie: Right? Right. It's about relationships, dynamics, and energies, and feelings, and the inner world, and that stuff that we struggle to put language to.
And I found that when I was in [01:39:15] that role of telling people about themselves, I mean, who doesn't love to be told about themselves, right? Right. And, like, I was like, "Oh, I could do this." Like, I, I, it gave me energy, uh, to have people, like, be curious what I saw in them, [01:39:30] and that was, that was really kind of my happy place.
And so then counseling came up and I was like, "Oh, that's what I wanna do." I, similar to you, where, like, you joined the program not knowing what does an MFT do- Mm-hmm. Right ... and, like, how do [01:39:45] you... Like, it, it was just on a whim of like that's what I wanna do. I, I wanted to just continue down that path, and so I enrolled in their distance program.
But then when I went through a breakup, uh, with my boyfriend at the time in Santa [01:40:00] Cruz and I needed a new place to live, an opportunity came up to move to a house in Berkeley. And I still question if it was the right choice because I felt so much more at home in Santa Cruz than I ever did- Um ... in the four years that I lived in Berkeley.
Berkeley's just, the Bay Area is [01:40:15] just really intense big city energy. But-
[01:40:17] Soad: Yeah ...
[01:40:18] Stephanie: I moved there. I continued my graduate program there. Um, worked there, got my first full-time job out of grad school there, eventually moved to Oregon from [01:40:30] there, and that, that is the story of how I spent my 20s.
[01:40:33] Soad: Wow. That's a rich life.
That's a lot. I mean, and I thought, like, I've done some stuff, but ma- no. No. [01:40:45] Nothing in comparison. Like, that's a rich life. Cuckoo. Yeah. I, it- it's a lot of experience at a very young age. Oh, Jesus, a lot. You lived a lot of [01:41:00] lifetimes there. And it's, again, I, I keep saying this, I'm happy you're sharing it. I think a lot of people will be blessed by you sharing it, because it does color you in different colors that [01:41:15] we don't see online, that I, uh, that again, I feel like people are chipped when they don't, when they don't get to see all of Stephanie or feel all of Stephanie.
That's a disservice in my eyes. Like, I think it's, it's, it gives [01:41:30] you so much color to talk about everything that... 'Cause like I said, when you shared it with me, I was like, "Wait, what?" "You did, you did what? You went through what?" And even when you describe it, you describe it in a way that's so [01:41:45] different than how you describe the intellectual stuff that you talk about.
Like, it's so different. Um, it's very human, and I love hearing that, and I, I'm glad you're sharing it. One more thing that I wanna ask you, though. You brought this up in the [01:42:00] beginning about forgiving your mom. I, I have a, a different viewpoint about forgiveness than most do. Um, so I'm gonna ask you what, what is, what does forgiveness look like?
Like, do [01:42:15] you... Does someone apologize and you forgive them, or is forgiveness for you something that you can do on your own solo without their apology? What does the forgiveness look like for you?
[01:42:26] Stephanie: Before I answer that, can I share one more thought [01:42:30] that came for me when I was hearing your reflection, which is that one thing that makes it...
I mean, there, there are a lot of challenges I face with integrating all the different parts of who I've been, where I've been. Um, one of them is that [01:42:45] I was raised, in my elementary school years especially, around Black culture, but I wasn't allowed to participate in it. So it was a really weird mixture because I was...
You know, kids are very [01:43:00] porous at that age, very subject to peer influence, and they pick up the mannerisms of their peers. But, like, like, there's a little part of me, a little inner voice sometimes that I absorbed from that environment that's like, "Ooh, no he didn't." You know? But [01:43:15] I wasn't allowed to react as a white girl in the mannerisms of my peers.
So that, like, little bit of, like, ghetto sass that I have, like, that part is so censored. And I got really, like, mixed messages from my [01:43:30] peers because I was into the music of my peers. And, like, on the bus to and from middle school, all the kids would be singing along to the hip-hop and R&B on the radio, and I knew the words to the songs, too.
I was listening to the same stuff. [01:43:45] And then I remember one day I, like, started singing along softly. I don't know if it was, like, TLC or whatever, but, like, I was, like, singing along, and one of the kids next to me was like, "What? You sing-- You have a good voice. You should sing." Like, this Black girl was cheering me on, but I [01:44:00] never knew how the peers were gonna respond because there was so much of, like, damned if I do, damned if I don't.
I'm gonna be made fun of for acting white. I'm also gonna be made fun of for acting Black. And meanwhile, I'm just a, a kid trying to figure out who I am in relation to other people, [01:44:15] right? So I think that's just one more piece of, like, how these pieces ended up so disjointed. The question of forgiveness, I think it's like I do believe that forgiveness is [01:44:30] an inside job, that it's between us and God.
Um, I think given the ongoing nature of my relationship with my mom, that poses additional [01:44:45] challenges because she's so defensive. I think that she feels like she has apologized to me for some of her mistakes as a parent [01:45:00] But some of the mistakes are so baked into the blind spots that she still has.
There's a real difficulty in her in connecting the dots between what's presently hard for me in [01:45:15] my life, what's presently hard for me in getting along with her, um, what makes it hard for me to communicate with her. Like, connecting the dots between all of that and the ways that [01:45:30] she could have done better.
There's, there's kind of a lack of, like, carrying through the remorse to its natural conclusion and application. And I think this is part of why [01:45:45] I'm able to teach the things that I do about apologizing and how to do it well, and how to really draw the lines around, like, what we are truly sorry for, where we truly acknowledge we could do better, and what we're not sorry for.
That's something [01:46:00] I help people get clear on all the time, because it's so easy for parents to get lost in this. They get bullied and beaten down by their trans-identified kids. They end up apologizing for things they're not sorry for, but they never apologize for the things that they really can apologize [01:46:15] for.
And so I help people find the clarity and the differences between those things all the time. And the thing is, like, my mom just has this inability to, like, really come to terms with, um [01:46:30] what was missing because it's still missing. Um, I mean, like, in my life, no, like, I have a wonderful husband, and like, uh, I've created, like, a good life for myself.
But [01:46:45] it's, the difficulty with perspective-taking is still there, and so it still plays out with the issues that we're facing in her old age. Like, for example, when I was planning my wedding, she was [01:47:00] going through medical crises, and I was really worried that she was going to die before my wedding or around the time of my wedding, and that was cau- that was causing me so much stress.
And it was not an unrealistic concern [01:47:15] given the nature of the medical problems she was having. And I asked her, I had to beg her if she could please help me with my wedding by agreeing to spend some time in a facility where [01:47:30] I knew she would be safe and taken care of because I was really worried about her being home alone in her state.
[01:47:36] Soad: Right.
[01:47:37] Stephanie: And that was such a power struggle. It was so hard for her [01:47:45] to agree to that, and so hard for her to take my perspective and say, "You know, you want your wedding to be a special time, not a [01:48:00] stressful time. You want it to be full of positive memories, and worrying about losing your mom is, is more than you can handle when you're dealing with the stress of planning a wedding."
I, like, it, like, it, that inability to take my perspective combined with the [01:48:15] defensiveness that she feels still about the idea that I see her as just a weak, fragile old lady. Like, it's, it's not possible for me to talk about the reality of her medical condition because [01:48:30] physically she is a weak, fragile old lady.
That's just a fact. And she has such a fragile ego that I can't acknowledge that without her [01:48:45] feeling personally offended by the idea that all I see in her is a weak, fragile old lady. That's just what I think she is, right? So, like, we cannot talk about the reality of old age. There are so many [01:49:00] ways that I'm walking on eggshells.
There are questions I'm not asking her about putting her affairs in order, about things like that, right? Because I can't, I can't have a conversation where I can [01:49:15] count on her to see it from my point of view. My point of view is, like, what it's like for me as the daughter of an aging mom who's worried and who...
Like, she just can't do that. Right, right. And so [01:49:30] that's what's so difficult about forgiveness, is like, like, there's not a recognition of how these particular personality traits have made my life hard, right? 'Cause if I'm constantly [01:49:45] tiptoeing, trying not to offend her, meanwhile I'm carrying the burden on my shoulders without any support from her of like, I am the daughter of a frail, aging mom, and that, like, that's hard for me.
Do you see the problem there?
[01:49:58] Soad: I obviously [01:50:00] don't know what's to come, but I can hear what you're hoping for is some sort of recognition of your mom, from your mom, that
[01:50:13] Stephanie: Stephanie, my daughter, I am [01:50:15] sorry. I could have done better.
[01:50:17] Soad: Like that, that is obvious as to what you're hoping to get from her one day, and I pray that you get that from her one day.
And genuine, not, not a, [01:50:30] "I'm sorry, Stephanie, but..." It's like no, we don't, we don't want the but, because then you're actually not sorry. Um, so I pray that you get the I'm sorry [01:50:45] so that it's so much easier for you to then say than I forgive you. Um, 'cause it does sound like that peace will give you more peace once that's there, once that forgiveness puzzle [01:51:00] is, is complete.
It does seem like for you it's like you can almost breathe. Now, it, that's not to say that you haven't done an incredible job picking up all these pieces and becoming the incredible [01:51:15] human that you have become today. No, you have. You have obviously done so well for yourself. Um, so much so that I, again, I reiterate again, so much so that I was like, no, people need to know that this other side that they don't know of.
[01:51:30] Like, you've done such a great job despite everything that's happened to you. However, as a daughter, I know that there is something that's so important to us to have Mom look at us in the eye and go, "I [01:51:45] failed you, and that harmed you, and I am so sorry for that." Um, every daughter needs that. It goes without saying.
I think anyone who is a daughter understands that. Um, [01:52:00] I pray you get that. I really, really do. And I, I, I love you for doing this and sharing this, this side of you with everyone. I mean, I love you separately just 'cause you're Stephanie and I adore [01:52:15] you, but just for doing this, thank you.
[01:52:18] Stephanie: Thank you. We, we definitely covered a lot of my life story today.
Um, I omitted a lot of details about [01:52:30] men, bad men in my life. Um, and, you know, it's another area of deficit when it comes to protection and guidance, um, and part of why it took me so long to [01:52:45] find my husband, um, who is a godsend and who regularly says, he's like, "I was sent here to love you." He said that to me today.
I'm like-
[01:52:55] Soad: That's
[01:52:56] Stephanie: sweet ... "Okay, thank you." Thank, thank God. He is a sweetheart.
[01:52:58] Soad: He's
[01:52:58] Stephanie: a
[01:52:58] Soad: love bug, for sure. [01:53:00]
[01:53:01] Stephanie: Um- For sure Yeah, I don't, I'm ... I don't know what to say to, like, I didn't, I didn't know how much of my story was gonna [01:53:15] come out today. I will say, like, with my mom, it's, it is a difficulty connecting the dots.
It's a difficulty seeing how, like, what's showing up in the present is connected to, you know, like, it's just these [01:53:30] other things. And, and I think, like, if I could have one thing from her in the present, I mean, yeah, an apology would be nice. An apology that's, like you say, heartfelt, not combined with a but, and like, and, and where, like, there's [01:53:45] like, where it clicks- Yep
where, like, she's able to see from my perspective, she's able to connect the dots. But it's also, like, whatever I'm doing in the present, I would love for that to be seen with more grace.
[01:53:57] Soad: Right.
[01:53:57] Stephanie: Right? Like, like, if [01:54:00] I make an attempt at humor in an awkward situation, like, it's a choice to take offense to that, which is usually often the choice that she makes, right, is to be offended, rather than to see, like, "Stephanie's had a hard life, and [01:54:15] actually, like, humor is a pretty good coping mechanism for, like..."
And, and there's times when my trying to put something in a playful way is actually, like, the best way I could put it, and the alternatives are definitely not better, you know? Like, to be seen with [01:54:30] more grace, um, would, uh, you know, with more, like, "Oh, I can see why she does that. Oh, she's doing that be-" you know, like, that is what feels [01:54:45] missing in that relationship.
And so I think a lot of who I am and what I am and what I value, what I emphasize, what I teach is, um, it really comes from deficits, right? It's, like, [01:55:00] I feel like I did not have a good foundation when it comes to emotional intelligence, when it comes to perspective-taking, theory of mind, communication skills, [01:55:15] all of that kind of stuff.
And, um, you know, when you talk about, like, seeing me as having that touch of autism, I- you've heard me respond to that in a number of ways. One, I'm like, "Well, I have one and a half autistic parents," right? Right. And, [01:55:30] like, I have, um, you know, you've seen my, my little, like, my chart with the, the dots where I... I, and I, I need to link this, my, my X thread where I'm like, when it comes to diagnostic overexpansion, [01:55:45] there comes a point where anybody can be counted if you're looking for certain things, right?
Like, I definitely have a lot in common with level one autism when it comes to sensory sensitivity, IQ, obsessiveness, things like that. I [01:56:00] also have these traits that really don't fit with that picture at all. But there's also, like, just a lag in my response time, I think sometimes, like, because of that, like, when you're raised without emotional attunement, when you're raised without, like, so [01:56:15] much of what takes place non-verbally in how people connect and read each other, like, there's even just, like, a, a little lag in my brain still, or an ability to go to that, like, detached place.
And sometimes when I go to that detached place, it's a coping [01:56:30] mechanism. Sometimes it's because I've had so much fucking shit projected onto me in this life, like an unreal amount of shit projected. Right. So I know how to just go to the person behind the projection screen [01:56:45] and try to not take it personally, try to detach and sometimes analyze the materials.
I mean, that's part of what we do as a therapist, right? Analyzing transference. Um, so I think... A- and, you know, and the other thing is, like, [01:57:00] to the extent that I do come across as poised, it's also because- I was a hot mess for so much of my life, and I was [01:57:15] judged for that. I was not treated with compassion and concern nearly as often as I needed.
I'm not gonna say I didn't cross paths with kind and good people, because I definitely did. And I remember even the smallest acts of kindness, like even a [01:57:30] single phrase that someone said to me once when I was young that I really needed. Like, I remember those moments. But they were few and far between, and I feel like I faced a lot more judgment and scrutiny and harshness from the world in response to the ways that [01:57:45] I was messy, even though my messiness was, like, because I was fricking raised by wolves.
Right. Like, I had unmet needs, and so I think some of my, like, issues around, [01:58:00] um, people making victimization their entire identity is, like, I might be judging them for that partly because if I had allowed that to hap- I mean, first of all, it never worked for me. I was not able to successfully communicate my victimhood [01:58:15] to other people in a way that got a caring response.
It did not work for me. I was judged. I was excluded on that basis. But also, if I had made it my identity, I wouldn't have survived.
[01:58:27] Soad: Well- [01:58:30] I'm glad you did.
[01:58:31] Stephanie: Thank you.
[01:58:32] Soad: I am. I'm glad you did. And thank you for doing this. Thank you. I think it'll help a lot of people to just see you. That's all. I think people just need to see you, and I'm glad that they are.
[01:58:43] Stephanie: Well, thank you so much. [01:58:45] So I, this has been very helpful for me. I'm a little nervous to present this to the world. I will just remind you, assholes get blocked, and people who behave like they might possibly be assholes also get blocked just for good [01:59:00] measure. So I just warn people about that. But, um-
[01:59:04] Soad: And, and for the assholes out there that, that are even thinking about doing it, think twice.
Like, w- what are you gonna get out of it? What's, what's, what's your goal? What are you [01:59:15] gonna accomplish? For what? So just think twice. Don't do it.
[01:59:18] Stephanie: I think it's, it's helpful for me at this chapter of life to be able to review all this stuff, 'cause like I said, I'm in my early 40s, and I feel like I, I gotta look at my [01:59:30] foundation 'cause my health is falling apart.
Like, and I know why. Um, and I've, I, I wanna make it at least 40 more years. So it's really helpful for me to have this time with you, Soad, so that I can reflect, do the reflection that I need to be doing [01:59:45] in this chapter of my life to figure out, like, h- how am I gonna use this time now to build the foundation for the next 40 years?
[01:59:52] Soad: Well, like I told you in our personal time, I'm excited to see where God takes you. Very excited. [02:00:00] And I'm, I'm blessed that I get to be a part of it in some way, so.
[02:00:03] Stephanie: Thank you so much, Soad, for being my friend and for interviewing me on my podcast and pulling my story out of me. I know we didn't, like, exactly announce at the beginning that, like, [02:00:15] what we're doing is a reverse interview, but, um, but hopefully that's, like, abundantly clear.
That when Helen Joyce reverse interviewed me, people were like, "Why is Stephanie doing all the talking?" It's like- Oh my
[02:00:26] Soad: God ... 'cause
[02:00:26] Stephanie: that was the plan.
[02:00:27] Soad: Yes, this is the plan. I literally asked [02:00:30] her if I could ask, ask the questions. So this was the plan, everyone. Chill out. She's doing all the talking today. Uh, r- and she deserves that.
You deserve that space
[02:00:40] Stephanie: Thank you so much for being my friend- Mm-hmm ... and for, for pulling out my story in such a [02:00:45] compassionate way.
[02:00:45] Soad: You're
[02:00:45] Announcer: welcome. I love you.
[02:00:47] Stephanie: Love you, too. Where can people find you?
[02:00:51] Soad: Soadtabrizi.com. It's the easiest place, and all my social media, the handle is easy. It's always Soad Tabrizi, @
[02:00:58] Stephanie: soadtabrizi.
And can you [02:01:00] plug
[02:01:03] Soad: Conservative Counselors? Oh, yes. Um, conservativecounselors.com is a directory that basically, um, is the arch nemesis to psychologytoday.com. So if you're looking for a therapist that isn't going [02:01:15] to indoctrinate you with all the leftist ideology, uh, but you're, like, afraid to find one someplace, um, go to conservativecounselors.com.
The- everyone on there is conservative. That doesn't mean they're going to push their agenda on you or their values on you. It just means that it's a [02:01:30] safe place for you to go so that no one's going to force you to take on anything that's unrealistic, delusional, so forth and so on. So conservativecounselors.com.
[02:01:41] Stephanie: Thank you for the work that you're doing, Soad. Thank you. [02:01:45] Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, [02:02:00] please remember, podcasts are not therapy, and I'm not your therapist.
Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of [02:02:15] the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below.[02:02:30]
Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today. In the words of Max Ehrmann, "With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [02:02:45] [02:03:00] [02:03:15] world."