Build Your SaaS

What do you worry about when you own a software company?

Show Notes

This week, Jon and Justin discuss:
  • What makes a good podcast for product people?
  • New American Dream: building, owning, selling a SaaS (Tyler Tringas)
  • What do you worry about when you own your own software company?
  • How would we handle an economic downturn?
  • Why do software founders not sleep well at night?

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Creators & Guests

Host
Jon Buda
Co-founder of Transistor.fm
Host
Justin Jackson
Co-founder of Transistor.fm
Editor
Chris Enns
Owner of Lemon Productions

What is Build Your SaaS?

Interested in building your own SaaS company? Follow the journey of Transistor.fm as they bootstrap a podcast hosting startup.

Jon:

Hey, everyone. Welcome to Build Your SaaS. This is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 2020. I'm John Buddha, a software engineer.

Justin:

And I'm Justin Jackson. I do product and marketing. Follow along as we build transistor.fm. How's it going, John? Pretty good.

Justin:

Good, man.

Jon:

The sun is shining.

Justin:

Oh, that's good.

Jon:

Unlike last week.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. See? Now that changes everything, doesn't it?

Jon:

Does. It really does. It's kind of amazing.

Justin:

Yeah. That's, a good reminder. Sometimes you do just have to wait a little bit. There's

Jon:

there's light at

Justin:

the end of the tunnel.

Jon:

There is

Justin:

In this case literally. Literally. Literal light. I was thinking about kind of 2 things. One was I had this phone call with Heaton Shaw.

Justin:

He's kind of this well known, fellow in the bootstrapping community And in the startup community. He's been in San Francisco for a while. And we're talking about what makes a good podcast for product people, like what do people want to hear. And one of the things I landed on is that, at least for this moment in time, vulnerability beats professionalism. Meaning, you can have a really slick, well produced podcast.

Justin:

But there's something about the openness and rawness and vulnerability about what people are really going through in their attempt to get to this new American dream that Tyler Tringus talked about, which is building, owning and possibly selling a SaaS. This whole thing is interesting to me, partly because like, that's what the show is about.

Jon:

Right.

Justin:

And also just because we see a lot of podcasts. And it made us made me think about, you know, this show here. What, how how are you feeling right now? Like, how would you describe your feeling today at this moment in time?

Jon:

At this moment? I don't know if I can answer that right now.

Justin:

Mhmm. I I

Jon:

haven't thought about it. Yeah. A little scatterbrained. That's maybe not a feeling. Suppose there's just, there's just generally a low level of anxiety around what might happen, which I guess is anxiety.

Jon:

Right? It's like you're worrying about things that might happen, which is sort of pointless.

Justin:

Can you tell me more about that? Like, what what kind of things you worry about?

Jon:

Just the business, like, the business or what's going on in the country or the world and how that might affect things in the future. Mhmm. Like

Justin:

And how that might specifically affect the business?

Jon:

Yeah. Well, the business or just, like, how would we handle certain events of, like, I don't know, some sort of economic downturn? What would happen? Or Mhmm. I don't know.

Jon:

I feel like there's I feel like there's something coming that's not gonna be good, and I don't know what it is.

Justin:

Yeah. And so you have the And I'm not and I'm not and

Jon:

I'm not worried about, like, the coronavirus. Like, I just I don't think that's necessarily that one is super worrisome, but, like, just, I don't know, the general direction of the United States and some other countries.

Helen:

Mhmm. Did do you think did you

Justin:

have that same kind of anxiety when you were working for a company? Like, did you worry about that stuff?

Jon:

Not necessarily. No. Because I because I wasn't necessarily in control of what was gonna happen.

Justin:

Yeah. Even that's interesting because, you know, rationally, the risk is the same. Mhmm. You know, like, if there's a downturn in the economy, that could mean that people are buying less board games, which could mean, you know, your job would be at risk. But you're saying now that you are an owner, there's this kind of baseline anxiety of what will happen.

Jon:

Yeah. Which kinda sucks because it sort of removes you from enjoying the moment. Mhmm. And there's still a lot. There's obviously a ton of stuff we have to be, you know, proud of and, like, happy about.

Jon:

Mhmm.

Justin:

And it

Jon:

it's it's some I think it's sometimes easy to get out of that mindset of, like, this is actually going really well. We should be happy with it and proud of it.

Justin:

Mhmm.

Jon:

It certainly could could all crash down, like, everything ends at some point.

Justin:

Mhmm.

Jon:

But is it worth worrying about it or just sort of focusing on Yeah. Kinda what's going on now.

Justin:

I think this is something that doesn't get talked about enough. The there is, like, the fact that we're such emotional people, like humans are emotional people. And you don't often know what it'll be like when you get there.

Jon:

Mhmm.

Justin:

And so you're working towards this thing, this new American dream of building your own SaaS company. A lot of us are building this for very good reasons, some of some of which are kind of structural. Like, I guess that's the flip side of that coin is that some people build these businesses because, you know, the middle class is shrinking because real, what do you call that? Real wage? Real wages haven't increased since the seventies.

Justin:

Like, adjusted for inflation, their average person is making the same as someone did in the seventies, but everything else has gotten more expensive. The fact that, you know, there's so the average commute has gotten longer. That was, like, one of the big ones for me is

Helen:

I was, like, I just gotta get out of this car.

Jon:

Yeah. The wage the wage stuff is concerning, and that's why when our current president's like, the economy's great. Everything's going great. It's just total bullshit. Mhmm.

Jon:

Because, yeah, the stock market is great. People have jobs, but the jobs suck. Yeah. The stock market going up doesn't really affect most people. It just makes rich people richer, essentially.

Jon:

Yeah. So, like, that's that's the stuff that is concerning. I feel like something's being propped up artificially and it's just gonna just plummet at some point. Mhmm.

Justin:

There's also this trend we've talked about quite a bit, I think, is that how a lot of founders report having bad sleeps. Mhmm. And when I asked them, when did you start having bad sleeps? Like, was this something you had when you were an employee? And they say no.

Jon:

Yeah.

Justin:

And it's like this it's both things. Sometimes it's kind of low level anxiety that's always going. It's not always like you're you're capped up because you're worry you're worrying. Although that happens for sure. But for me, it's often your brain is just kind of always dedicating some cycles even in the background to thinking about problems.

Justin:

And sometimes the answer, like, your brain finishes processing at 11:30 PM when you're supposed to be sleeping, and then all of a sudden your whole system wakes up. Right?

Jon:

Yeah. I I mean, I I don't really have problems falling asleep. I don't think I sit there and worry about stuff. Like, I I used to in college.

Justin:

Mhmm.

Jon:

Early college. I would just sit there and, like, worry about just really random stuff. Mhmm. That's not the problem. I think I sometimes wake up early sometimes.

Jon:

I would I would have a out of a deep sleep maybe.

Justin:

And and what causes that, do you think?

Jon:

I have no idea.

Justin:

How early we talking about? Like, 3 in the morning?

Jon:

No. Usually, it's, like, 4 between 4 and 5. Before the sun is up, and I just get I'm just, like, up, and I'll just, like, get up and make some coffee and, I don't know, do some work. Maybe just read. I don't know.

Jon:

I can't go to I can't go back to sleep, so I'm just up. But does throw your whole day off because that's not enough sleep to really be that, that effective. Yeah. I, I had dinner the other night with a friend of mine who I used to work with work for kind of, and he's a he's a founder of a company, And he's been at it for 10 years in the same industry in the co working space. He runs, deskpass.com.

Justin:

Is this someone you work with at your office or no?

Jon:

No. It's not. It's, no. Someone else. Okay.

Jon:

I used to work work at, this design company he ran or still is a part of, but he he has this other company that, it's going it's been going really well as of, you know, like, couple years ago and stuff. It's sort of he found found the market, and we were just kinda talking about business and how things are going and how we're feeling. And he he, you know, is a, you know, a number of other founders in Chicago. He was talking to somebody, I forget which company it was, but he's, like, they had sort of grown a bunch. They got funding, and I think they were they were talking.

Jon:

He's like, you know, you kind of expect it to, as you reach a certain level, afford to get easier. And he's like, it just gets harder. Like, it doesn't like, the bigger you get, the harder it gets. It doesn't get any easier. Mhmm.

Jon:

Which, like, kinda makes me, you know, really wanna stay small. Mhmm.

Justin:

You know, the anxiety I have about that is that I have this I have this feeling of, like, okay. Well, maybe we can, like we can operate in a way that sidesteps that whole thing where, you know, when Jason Fried says, it doesn't get easier, it gets harder. And when people say, well, you when Jason Cohen says, well, you have to grow and that means things get more complicated. I always have this hope that you and I can sometimes, like, just, like, sneak our way around that and continue to have this moment that we're in right now. Part of me feels like it it must be possible.

Justin:

Because I do know some founders that are way more zen than others.

Jon:

Uh-huh.

Justin:

Although, there's always something. So it it's but it it's a scale. It's not binary. Right? And for sure, I look at, you know, other people's companies and what's going on inside.

Justin:

And I'm like, okay, I don't want to have anything to do with that. And what we seem to have is much more calm. But there is this anxiety of like, well, maybe we just can't avoid the inevitable reckoning.

Jon:

Right. Yeah. It's yeah. It's tough. It's tricky.

Jon:

It's like yeah. It's calm right now, but then you start thinking about competition. You're like, are we not moving fast enough? Like, I and I know we've talked about trying to ignore competition in the past, and Mhmm.

Justin:

I

Jon:

still think that's mostly a good idea, but but it's, like, sometimes you can get the mindset of, like, oh, man. We're falling behind. Like Yeah. We're we're too small. We need to hire people to help out or whatever.

Jon:

And then

Justin:

Yeah. And, I mean, it I get like, Jason Fried often says don't worry about your competition. But that does get a lot easier in their case when because Bezos took money off the table, like, helped them take money off the table. I can see that really leading to a sense of calm. Because then if someone comes along and says, hey.

Justin:

I'm thinking about going with you or going with your competitor. I mean, there's part of me and to be honest, like, when we were growing fast, when people were, like, hey, I'm considering you or the the the competitor. I was, like, well, you know, if you're I'm I'm not going to, like, bend over backwards to convince you. Like, here's kind of the facts. Here's what it's like, you know, here's why I think we're better.

Justin:

But I'm not going to beg you to come and be a transistor customer. Again, like, we're still growing, but growth has definitely slowed, compared to what it used to be. And the now I have this feeling of, oh, exactly what you said. Like, oh, well, maybe we should just care more. Because, you know, it's easy.

Justin:

You know, if, if launching a product, you kind of like, there's a certain amount of oxygen in the room. And it felt like we just found this pocket of oxygen. And we just like we were just sucking up all this oxygen. It was like, wow, there's so much oxygen here. And And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, wait.

Justin:

The oxygen's kind of where to go? And and part of that is because there's new competitors that are sucking up the oxygen. Part of that's because podcasting still isn't growing that much. Right, year over year. And so there's only so many new podcasts that get created every year.

Justin:

Most of the new podcasts that were created last year were created on Anchor. And and so if we discount those and look at, like, the pie that remains where we're competing with Libsyn and these other folks, well, you know, that that pie is reasonably large. It's large enough that there's a bunch of players in there making a pretty good living. But it's you yeah. You you start to wrestle with, okay, like, what what is it now?

Justin:

And, you know, I think a cynical person would say, well, you're in a commodity market or or whatever. And that could be true. It still feels like no, I think there's some competitive advantages, you know, customer support, competitive advantages with branding, competitive advantages with the product and feature set we build. And it still feels worth it for us to think about what's gonna be kind of the next feature we build that's going to help us set ourselves apart. There's a flip side to that too, which is I mean, for example, we launched private podcasting, and it wasn't soon after that a lot of competitors launched private podcasting as well in the same kind of way.

Jon:

I haven't really seen what they're doing. I mean, there's certainly improvements that we wanna make with that feature. There are improvements that are, like, going to require a lot of time and research, and I think we need to weigh whether or not it's worth it. Like, I yeah. I it's gonna be tough.

Jon:

I don't think we really have landed on what the next thing we're gonna do is.

Justin:

Yeah. I I mean, here's another thought that I think might resonate with Jim who's listening right now. I don't know who Jim is. If you're Jim, say hi on Twitter. Like, is there is there a gym that's just like, what?

Justin:

What fuck? What? That's me. That's me. Another thought for bootstrappers is one of the advantages of launching in a market that has this momentum, meaning it's either growing fast or you have an unnatural advantage in the market where you can accrue, you can, you know, acquire a bunch of customers, or, there's just a lot of untapped demand.

Justin:

Is that for us, we grew quite quickly to the point we're at now. And now we have this base of revenue. We have been profitable every single month. Right? And there isn't this pressure.

Justin:

We have margin. And a lot of business is is kind of a a war of attrition. Right. Meaning, if there might be some real hotshot competitors that are around right now. But if they can't pay their bills every month, how long are they going to last?

Justin:

Yeah.

Jon:

I mean, there's a there's a lot of freedom with and flexibility with what we have going as far as profitability. Mhmm. And yeah. I don't know. Maybe we need to rethink how we're using that.

Justin:

Yeah. I mean, I think one advantage we do have is that is the fact that our burn rate is so low. But on the other hand, there is there's a tension between those ideas too, because we could be investing it in other things. Right? Like, there's this idea of, like, sure, we can keep that money as profit.

Justin:

But maybe and this is this is why it really is like running a business really is like surfing. Like, so you and I paddled out. We happened to get up on a board on a pretty good wave. And now we're riding that wave, but we have so many decisions. Right?

Justin:

We have a decision of, like, okay. Is this how long is this wave gonna last? Do we kind of do we get off this wave and paddle out and try to find another one? And there's, like, all sorts of ways that can work out. You know, Basecamp just announced Basecamp 4, but they also which is kind of a new wave.

Justin:

Right? Like, we could rebuild transistor. We could start working on transistor V2. Basecamp also announced hey.com, which you talk about that in a sec, which is a brand new product. That's like How much how much

Jon:

do they pay for that? I know.

Justin:

I saw I'm curious. I saw Jason talking about it. Like, he was talking about, like, they just acquired this thing. So

Jon:

yeah. Or do you buy do you buy a better surfboard? I like in terms of let's maybe upgrade our infrastructure and pay more money to Amazon.

Justin:

Yeah. Or do we hire a surfing coach that helps us? Right? And and and honestly, most of it is just us making decisions, riding the wave. Are we going to are we going to, you know, lean into this wave and go this way?

Justin:

Are we gonna, you know, change directions? Are we going like, a lot of the decisions that you're making when you're surfing or snowboarding or any of these things are like this.

Jon:

Yeah. I was gonna I was gonna ask, do you do you surf?

Justin:

I don't surf. I but but but the but the I like the metaphor because I think it's it's understandable. And I could I could I could use snowboarding as well. Like, if you're going down a black diamond run, you have all of these decisions you're making. Do I carve here?

Justin:

Do I carve here? Do I dip into this section? Do I go through the trees? And some of those are related to your skill level and the equipment you're on and your experience. But at the end of the day, you still have to make this decision.

Justin:

Right? If the path cuts left and right, which way do I go?

Jon:

Yeah. You have to make a decision. Yeah. So You could end up stuck in a tree well. You could Yeah.

Jon:

You could And

Justin:

and you could be I mean, you can be the most experienced snowboarder ever. My buddy Nate here in Vernon, super experienced snowboarder, has been around forever, works at one of the local shops. And he got caught in an avalanche last year. And it was a total freak avalanche. Like, we haven't had one at Silver Star ever.

Justin:

I think there's 40 years of data. No avalanches ever. And we had 2 in one day. And he got caught in 1. And so there's other variables too that we just can't worry about.

Justin:

But anyway, I think it's probably it's interesting. There's always kind of two sides to the coin. On one side, I feel kind of, okay and calm because I feel like, you know what? We're making good revenue. We're we have time.

Justin:

And sometimes the best plan of action is just to wait. Right? It's just to, like, wait. And I guess in the snowboarding sense, it might be like, oh, that part looks sketchy. And you just, like, stop and wait and see what other people go down there, and how it works out for them.

Justin:

Right? Like, sometimes sometimes waiting is the answer. And Yeah. Just kind of holding out, and we have that flexibility. On the other side, I think you don't wanna be so comfortable.

Justin:

You know, you're not you're not you're just like, we'll be fine no matter what. You know? Just Yeah.

Jon:

I mean, we we could make the decision right now to essentially stop working on this and just let it run and hire some customer support people and just be like, we're not gonna add anything new. It's good. And you know you know what? That would probably work for a while. Like but it would it would eventually just deteriorate, I think.

Justin:

I'm actually, if I'm sure about one thing, I'm it feels like I'm sure about that because you can definitely tell when customer the the the founders kind of check out for a while. I was listening to Sahel on a podcast. He's the founder of Gumroad. And I remember because I was a user of Gumroad. And for a while, it was like, you couldn't get a hold of anyone there.

Justin:

There was no new feature updates. Things were breaking and, like, we're sometimes offline for a while. And I was like, what is going on? And it turns out, like, you know, they weren't able to raise more money, and he was having all sorts of personal struggles, you know, with that situation, and had kind of checked out for a bit. And I noticed.

Justin:

And now he's back, and I've noticed that he's back. You know what I mean? Like, there's a there's a a noticeable difference.

Jon:

Right.

Justin:

So I it feels like I'm I'm fairly certain about that. And I also know I have some founder friends that, you know, kind of took that approach. Like, no, I'm just gonna build this thing, and then it's just gonna run, and I'm gonna go surfing.

Jon:

Yeah. I'm gonna go I'm gonna go move to Bali and Yeah. For whatever.

Justin:

And, you know, it was working great for them for 3, 5 years. And then eventually, a competitor came in that was hungrier than they were, and just kind of cleaned up because, you know, so much of this is kind of being active and really caring about the customer.

Jon:

Yeah. I mean, we had a we had a customer a couple weeks ago that switched to another platform. And one of the reasons he did it was because he said they add features every week and they talk about it even if they're small. And I'm like, we do that, but we just don't talk about it. And I maybe it's just the the impression that it's constantly being improved.

Jon:

Yeah. That is it's attractive to some people.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Like, woah. It feels like stuff's happening here.

Jon:

And I can I can relate to that? So, you know, I mean, that's obviously something we can do better is, like, kind of have release notes every week or a mailing list or something about what we've added and what we've done.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. To give folks a sense of this is yeah. And, actually, I've had the same thought as people talk about dropping out of, social media, which has been, Derek, Derek Reimer was talking about this on art of product and on startups for the rest of us. And on one hand, I totally get it.

Justin:

Like, you're not as active on social media. Right?

Jon:

No. I I mostly glance at it once in a while. Mhmm. I'm like it really it's only even that it's only Twitter. I don't even know the last time I tweeted something.

Jon:

Yeah. Facebook. I've Facebook. I've had my finger over the delete account button so many times and I just haven't done it yet. I just take don't I don't use it.

Jon:

Yeah. So why why have

Justin:

Yeah. I know. Yeah. They're just kinda holding me hostage too. It's like, why don't I

Jon:

but it's like But, like, what am I even worried about losing? I know. There's I already keep in contact with people that I wanna keep in

Justin:

contact with. Yeah. Yeah. But what there is an argument that if you're building a company, and I guess it also depends on kind of what your natural advantages are in a market and what the market responds to. In our case, I think me being quite active ends up playing in our favor, because it's the same thing.

Justin:

What is top of mind? And we can all think of, like, folks we we used to hear from all the time. And then one day you're like, oh, what happened to that person? Because they just haven't been vocal. And, again, it doesn't matter with every product in every market.

Justin:

Like Ruben Gammes is mostly like, most people don't know who he is. He's on Twitter, but he doesn't have, like, a huge following there. And he's built a great business, off of just kinda optimizing search. On the other hand, there's a few people I used to remember, like, I remember, oh, they were so active and just being top of mind, being present, being visible, being in the conversation, there's an advantage to that. And you can also go overboard.

Justin:

Like, some people might say, DHH has gone overboard. Like, it's just too much. I've heard a few people say they've muted him lately. Maybe before we go, John, did you see this thing that Basecamp just announced?

Jon:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hey hey.com, which is email email related.

Justin:

Yeah. You you know, right when you just said it, I realized there's a problem with that domain. Yeah. Can you guess what it is?

Jon:

A dot hey. Hey. People are gonna misspell it.

Justin:

I think people are gonna misspell it. Because it it's not it's not audible. Like, hey.com. That's, that's one thing about it. Because it could be hay.com.

Jon:

Could be.

Justin:

Anyway, it's maybe it'll be less of a problem than than we think.

Jon:

Yeah. I mean, we had we we had talked to Jason, and we knew they were building something. Mhmm. Sort of.

Justin:

Yeah. He told us, like, off the record that they were building something in email. Yeah.

Jon:

And But they also they also announced that they're rebuilding base camp again, base camp 4, which is interesting. Surprising to me. I guess more than more than even what hey.com is gonna be. Mhmm. It's kind of interesting.

Jon:

I'm more interested in really why they decided to do that because, you know, they were 37 signals before and they rebranded to base camp with the express goal of just developing one thing. Mhmm. Obviously, you know, they can do whatever they want.

Justin:

But Yeah. I think what Jason said was he's like, well, we changed our mind.

Jon:

Yeah. I mean, that's that seems like a response you would Yeah. Right? Like

Justin:

Totally.

Jon:

Yeah. Sort of what you know, behind the scenes, what their thought process was when they really decided to to pursue it. Yeah. And then on the technical end of things, I think the last our last episode, we sort of talked about some of the changes they've been making to to Rails itself and how they've been talking about this new, like, paradigm they've come up with for developing apps. Yeah.

Jon:

And kind of maybe I'm interested to see how that plays out with with both these new Yeah. Either new version of Basecamp or hate.com and what that means. And I'm assuming they'll talk about he'll talk about it more at RailsConf in in May.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Alan, I think it's Tochary on Twitter said he was listening to our podcast, and he said you called it. Because David said they've extracted a lot of hay into rails, both action mailbox and action text. And then, he's like, but the backlog of extractions remains thick Mhmm.

Justin:

Including a new paradigm for the front end I'll be talking about at RailsConf.

Jon:

Yeah. I'm I've kind of I don't really know. I have guesses of what that is, but,

Justin:

Yeah.

Jon:

Back to the actual new thing. Mhmm. Like, do you I, for 1, don't really have any major gripes of a email right now. I don't know. I mean, interested to see what it solved.

Jon:

There's all these email apps that have come out and gone, maybe gotten purchased and closed down where it's like, they're trying to fix something where it's like, you can snooze emails, you can prioritize emails, you can Mhmm. All this stuff. And I just personally, none of it really resonated. I don't really care about any of that. But

Justin:

I think so the timing, I think, is probably good in a few areas. One is we have Superhuman, which has been quite successful in getting people to pay like $30 a month for email. And Uh-huh. A lot of my developer friends use it because the keyboard shortcuts are really powerful, and it's very opinionated. And basically, their philosophy of doing email appeals to these folks and they're willing to pay a lot of money for it.

Justin:

Because that there are a group of people who are already used to using something other than Gmail and used to paying for it, there's there's something there for sure that I I could see being, compelling. The other thing is this growing backlash against Google. We have so much of our stuff in Gmail. And there are more and more folks who are like, I don't want Google to have all my stuff. This is like every 3 months, this topic comes up on Marco Arment's podcast with, ATP with Casey Less and, John Sarakisa.

Justin:

You You know, they talk about, okay, what are the alternatives? Because I don't wanna use Icloud. Icloud sucks. And I I don't wanna use Gmail because I I don't wanna support that company.

Jon:

Mhmm.

Justin:

And so there may be and the other thing is that email as a market is massive. And Gmail's pretty old and crusty now in in terms of a brand. It's been around for a long time.

Jon:

Right.

Justin:

And so it feels, you know, often in these big established spaces, sometimes when the when the the kind of the big gorilla is old and crusty, there's a opportunity to kind of wedge yourself in there and say, okay. But if you're looking for an alternative, that isn't Zoho, that isn't Icloud, that, you know, there's these other options. But what if you actually had something that completely rethought email from the ground up? I think there is something compelling about that of people being like, yeah, I just want like, there's gotta be a better way to do this. And so yeah.

Justin:

I and they've already like, we're we were laughing at David's tweet where he's, like, just a fair warnings to the likes of Intercom, HubSpot, and Mailchimp, Superhuman, and anyone else who either spies on email recipients for aggregate or individual gain, you're on notice. We will absolutely name and shame every service that includes tracking pixels in HEY.

Jon:

Yeah.

Justin:

It's like, okay. Wow. But I mean, in some ways, that messaging is is hitting a nerve that is present right now. Right? Like, maybe 10 years ago, people wouldn't have cared.

Justin:

But now, after all of these things, I think folks are like, yeah, you know what? Like, no, I don't want any more tracking in my life.

Jon:

Mhmm.

Justin:

So yeah. It'll be interesting to see what happens. And I mean, one thing for people to remember too, because I think often folks are like, ah, you know, they're gonna win just because they're 37 signals and they have this big audience. 37 signals has lots of failed products in their history, like stuff that didn't work out. And so this is not a a for sure at all despite their following and all that stuff.

Jon:

You'll see. I'm interested. Maybe we can get some early access. I don't know. It sounds like though that people are gonna get a hey.com email address.

Jon:

Yeah. So which will be which will be interesting because

Justin:

I yeah. I know we're going a little bit long here. But one thing I was thinking about with that is I think there are some people who are kinda tired of their email address. And I'll give you an example. I started this company way back in, like, early 2000 called Bizbox bizbox.ca.

Justin:

And I've just had it forever. And it's just kinda hung over my head forever. Right? I just have this email address that a lot of people use to contact me. And I'm kind of tired of it.

Justin:

I don't know what the word for this is. But there's this feeling of, like, you've been dragging this thing along for a long time. And it's like, maybe it's time to just kill that thing and move on with my life, you know. And I wonder if there's also an opportunity there to capitalize on, like, you know what? I'm gonna get a new email address.

Justin:

I'm just I'm clean start 2020. I'm tired of holding on to this old part of my past that I don't really care about anymore. Right?

Jon:

That's a this could be a big gamble for them because people are gonna depend on that email address. And then

Justin:

Yeah. You can't really shut it down. Do. I mean, it's probably not it's probably not incredibly difficult to forward. Like, they could say we're shutting it down, but we're keeping the forwards active or whatever.

Jon:

Yeah. That's true. Yeah.

Justin:

I I'm totally curious about it too. Okay, folks. I think that's it for this week. One thing I I'd love to know is reach out to us and let us know what conferences you're going to this year. Are you going to rails comp?

Justin:

John and I are thinking about whether we should go. If there's a bunch of people that we know that are going and that wanna hang out, maybe we'll maybe we'll go. So, yeah, just reach out on Twitter. Build your SaaS is our Twitter address. John, we have all these lovely people who support us on Patreon.

Justin:

Let people know who they are.

Jon:

Alright. Yeah. Thanks to everyone. We have Mason Hensley, Borges Borges Solar.

Justin:

Oh, yeah. We didn't hear back from

Jon:

is it Boria or Solar? Boria or yeah. Bora Borja Solar?

Justin:

I don't know. I mean, reach out to us.

Jon:

Yeah. We have Ward Sandler, Eric Lima, James Sours, Travis Fisher, Matt Buckley, Russell Brown, Evandro Sassy, Prady Yumna Shembecker, Noah Praill, Robert Simblissio, Colin Gray, Josh Smith, Ivan Kerkovic, Brian Ray, Shane Smith, Austin Loveless, Simon Bennett, Michael Sittber, Paul Jarvis, and Jack Ellis, my brother, Dan

Justin:

My brother. Yeah. I think I think we need to get the whole Buddha clan on here. I I I think I think Dan's been holding you know, he's he's been carrying the the torch too long. I think I I Yeah.

Justin:

We need to get, you know, mom and dad and some uncle. Let's get some uncle Buddhas in here.

Jon:

Yeah. Some uncle Buddhas.

Justin:

Sure. That's a call out if they're listening.

Jon:

Yeah. Which they probably are. Darby Frey, Samori Augusto, Dave Young, Brad from Canada, Sammy Schubert, Mike Walker, Adam Devander, Dave Junta.

Justin:

Junta.

Jon:

And Kyle Fox at get rewardful dot com. Thanks, everyone. We will see you next week.