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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matt Brown. The podcast where pastor and author Matt Brown debriefs your questions about Christianity and current issues shaping our culture. Thank you for listening, and enjoy the show.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, hey, everybody. Welcome to the debrief, and I am super excited to have my buddy Nate Westwick here joining us for the first time.
Nate Westwick:First time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Long time listener, first time guest.
Nate Westwick:First time caller.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Okay. So we're gonna do like what when we talk about our wives, how we met. Yes. So we're not married, for the record.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Never even I mean, we are married, but not to each We're
Nate Westwick:not married
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:to each other. Never even been on a date True. With each other. How did we meet? I'm curious what your story is.
Nate Westwick:Yeah. What is my story? So we first started attending Sandals in the VCC days.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow. Okay. Yeah. Wow. So that'd been like 1999, February.
Nate Westwick:Let's call it February. Okay. Because I had married my wife in 1999. I think we started attending sandals in February. So that would have been a while ago.
Nate Westwick:When we actually met? It's a good question. I don't know. Sometime after February.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I have a memory of us sitting sitting on a sidewalk talking. I don't know if that's real, or I dreamt it, or it's a vision from the Lord. But yeah. And then Could
Nate Westwick:be in the future after this we can sit
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:on this sidewalk talking about Church Hurt. You you were a part of another church Yep. And and that went south. Yep. And man, I just remember praying for you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, man, I'm so sorry. Yeah. You know, church hurt's a real thing.
Nate Westwick:That was a pivotal that conversation was pivotal. I've told you about that. Yeah. But that was, you know, through you, the Holy Spirit saved me from a really dark path. Yeah.
Nate Westwick:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Oh, man. And anybody out there who's been hurt by church, just know that the church is full of people, and we serve a perfect Lord, but we serve him with broken people, and it's really easy to lose your faith in the church very, very easily if your attention is not on Jesus, and it's on his people. It's why there's so many passages to love his people, because they're not super easy. So tell us a little bit about yourself, family background, business.
Nate Westwick:Yeah. So I turned 50 this year Okay. Which is super exciting. So it's a big year for our family. My wife turns 45.
Nate Westwick:Wow. We celebrate our twenty fifth anniversary, and then turn 50. So lots of multiples of five, which my wife and I are both math majors, and so we like multiples of five. It's a very, you know, attractive thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I hated people like you in college.
Nate Westwick:It's okay. You know, I've been hated a lot. Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh my gosh.
Nate Westwick:Thick skin. So, yeah, I got three boys. My oldest is a freshman at CBU studying civil engineering. Mhmm. Having the time of his life.
Nate Westwick:He's in Southern Utah skiing right now, which is awesome. And my middle is a 17 year old junior at REV, Redlands East Valley High School.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right
Nate Westwick:on. And youngest is a freshman. Just made the golf team. So that's exciting.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I love it.
Nate Westwick:So we get to do father son bonding on the golf course. It's for the relationship. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now you have an awesome business. Tell us about that.
Nate Westwick:Yeah. So I started Wild Goose Coffee Roasters back in 02/2008. I used to be a high school math teacher at my alma mater, Yucaipa High School. Okay. And started the business, did five years of overlap, growing the business while staying in the classroom.
Nate Westwick:That was one year too many. And, you know, growing a business is not for the faint of heart, but it's been super cool. So business has been around for just over fifteen years now, if I did the math right. And, yeah, man, we roast really great coffee. We donate 10 pounds of food to local food banks for every pound of coffee that's sold, and that's become my full time gig.
Nate Westwick:It's great.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. One of my favorite Christmas presents was for pastor Andrew Bogenreich, and he bought me Yeah. One bag of coffee. Do you call it a bag? What do you call it?
Nate Westwick:Yeah. It was a coffee subscription that
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you Coffee subscription every month. He didn't give me that gift again. I just all pray for pastor Andrew.
Nate Westwick:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. It was my I I I just remember looking forward to it every month. So I love your guys' coffee. I love it. I think it's great coffee.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I love you for two reasons. I love your entrepreneurial spirit, and I love your drive. Mhmm. And there's very very few people that I meet that I feel like can match that intensity with me, and you've matched that. And I appreciate that about So how long would you say you've been at Sandals?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because you were at Sandals in the beginning, you took a hiatus to help another church plant, I think. Yep. And then you came back.
Nate Westwick:So I'm horrible with chronology, but I wanna say around seven years Mhmm. In the first go around. And then God called us to start help start a church. I was not the head pastor, but I helped it get off the ground. That was another seven ish years, and then a little season of wandering, trying to figure out, you know, faith in God and things like that.
Nate Westwick:Mhmm. And I believe I've been back to Sandals for ten years Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think.
Nate Westwick:Yeah. Something like that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, I'm glad you're back.
Nate Westwick:Me too.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So let's talk about your book. I'm gonna put this up here, Clearing the Path. And so this is not my book everybody. I think it's important that as Christians, we support you don't have to hold up
Nate Westwick:my book.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think I think it's important that we support Christian writing, Christian films. I just was on the phone with a Christian director, and he literally is like, Matt, I need to raise $2,000,000 today to get this film off the ground. And if you're a Christian out there, it's so important that you support God's causes. So many Christians want to change America through the law. Dude, change America through your generosity.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Support Christian books, support Christian speakers, your church, a podcast, a movie. You know, Christians mock. This is one of the things that drives me crazy. They mock things that other Christians do. I was telling you guys before the show, I just got my first bad review on my book, and it was a I don't if it was a zero or a one.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's a one. And it said, not worth the price. So it's just like, and for whoever, you know, you're entitled to your opinion, thank you for your honesty, but it's just like, oh my gosh, somebody puts six months, nine months worth of effort, pours their heart and soul out, and there's somebody like, we just attack Christians. Yeah. You know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We have no no problem spending, you know, $6 for a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but you're a Christian trying to do good things. And by the way, Wild Goose is named after the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Yeah. So it's one
Nate Westwick:of Great the story.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. One of the names of Holy Spirit because you don't know what he's gonna do. But as Christians, we just kind of mock, put down, make fun of Christians that are trying to do things. And so I just want to encourage you to get this book. I actually wrote the forward for this book, because I love it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And one of the things I said, Nate, in the forward is when I gave my life to Christ, I was ready to die for him, but I did not realize how hard it would be to live for him.
Nate Westwick:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that was a huge huge issue for me. And so much of the Christian life is how do I get through the mundane? Mhmm. Like for those of you, people that get married, it's easy to fall in love and get married, it's hard to do the day to day. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so how do I follow Jesus day to day? But your book, Clearing the Connecting with God in a Cluttered World is so fantastic, and you are such a gifted writer. Thank you. I love it. I love this book.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Get this, but tell us about Clearing the Path. Why did you write it, and then who is it for?
Nate Westwick:Yeah. So I think there's there's an interesting discrepancy when you look at people who interacted with Jesus in the flesh and how their lives were drastically transformed compared with the average Christian for today. Mhmm. The average Christian has a set of beliefs that they might have, you know, maybe some things they do, some routines, some dos, some don'ts. Very rarely do you see lives legitimately transformed.
Nate Westwick:And so clearing the path is an effort to kind of demystify the spiritual life a little bit, because I think a lot of people think that to be a serious Christian, you have to be a pastor or a minister or a priest or something, and that that's just for a very small percentage, say 10% of the population of Christians, if that. So what do you do with the other 95%? Right? Is it just a set of beliefs? Is it, you know, or can we make it more than that?
Nate Westwick:And so clearing the path is a way to usher in the personal experience of Jesus into our lives. And so, you know, we talk a lot about holiness. A lot of people agree, like, holiness sounds great, but how do we get there?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Nate Westwick:Right? And if we live a holy life, we can enjoy communion with Jesus that does transform us. And if we're transformed, you were talking about Christians, you know, supporting other businesses and things like that, right, like Christian causes, I think one of the biggest things we can do as Christians is to be transformed ourselves because out of that space, we can then transform our relationships Yeah. Our workplaces, our our communities, and, you know, and our world. And so clearing the path is an effort to demystify that process, help people pursue holiness in a way that's practical, easy to follow, like we're having a conversation instead of super intellectual and and heady and difficult to understand.
Nate Westwick:So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so for those of you guys who attend Sandals Church, and you're part of a community group, Nate helps me each week write the community group questions, and you've been doing that for Couple years? Couple years. Yeah. And so you're actually being blessed by his writing each and every week, his thought process.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So he sits with me in the studio. I mean, I send you guys kind of, you know, five or six questions that are my thoughts, and you guys make them better, and so I'm very, very thankful for that. Because oftentimes, when I get to the end of my message, you know, creatively, I'm just kind of done. Sure. And so I don't have all the time, the the amount of time that I would like to spend on the questions, you know, because I think questions are important.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And, you know, Jesus answers three questions and asks 300 in the gospels. I think that tells us something. Questions are important. And so like you said, Christianity is a set of beliefs, so it's it's like, here's here's my statements of faith. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Rather than what are what are the what are healthy questions of faith? And so I think what you help us do as a church is you help us probe and ask deep questions to move us along. I loved the questions last week. I loved the new format that you guys are doing, let's get started, keep going, going deeper. I think that's fantastic, because we're all we're all in different places.
Nate Westwick:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, for some people this this is their first community group, they've never been. Other people, they're a long time Christian. But you just help shape our church spiritually, and so if you want to be more shaped by Nathan, get his book. And one of my good friends said, and I'm a little hurt by this, but it's the best book they've ever read. So I know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm not gonna tell you who it is because
Nate Westwick:I kinda wanna know now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I've unfriended them.
Nate Westwick:As you should. As you should. I do wanna say too, I think a lot of people focus their spiritual journey on knowing things. Mhmm. And even the small group questions are are not aimed at knowledge as much as they are relationships.
Nate Westwick:I think it's through relationships that we're transformed.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Nate Westwick:And so it's that relationship with Jesus, with others. Mhmm. Knowledge can be imparted, but knowledge will only take us so far. Like I studied a lot of, you know, math, physics, engineering in in college, but that didn't transform me as a human being. Right.
Nate Westwick:It's the relationships with other believers that has transformed me to be a better husband, father, worker, etcetera. And so
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think we,
Nate Westwick:you know, the aim of the small group questions, the aim of your book, my book is personal engagement with Jesus, because that's where true transformation happens.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Amen. And let me say this again why small group is so important. I know so many people are freaked out. COVID has changed us culturally.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I would say we were already an isolated culture. Mhmm. We're even more isolated now. In The UK, they have now branded loneliness as a it's a crisis of culture. Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because church was one of the ways that you connected, and as people pull away from church, now we're not having families, we're separated from our kids, we're not as close as we used to, and anything on a screen is not a relationship. Like I'm glad you guys are watching, I'm glad you're listening. A podcast is not a pastor. A pastor is a pastor. And you know, people all the time ask me questions, we've got some great questions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I say, campus do you go to? Mhmm. Process this with your pastor. Somebody that knows you, is processing this with you. Maybe it's a minister, somebody who works in soul care at Sandals Church, somebody that can really sit with you and go on go with you on this journey, because a lot of people think it's like, what's just the right answer?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's like, hold on.
Nate Westwick:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Let's ask some better questions. And that is the process of soul care counseling. You know, I had my therapist on the show a couple weeks ago. Yep. And let me tell you, that was weird.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Know, sitting down with somebody, you know, where you're like, wow, you know everything. So it was a great great process.
Nate Westwick:Even you talk about questions, you look at the questions Jesus asked. You know, it's it's a different question for different people for different situations, and it's because he knows them. Mhmm. And so I think our soul's deepest longing is to be seen, known, and loved. And Jesus is the only one who actually can do that.
Nate Westwick:Mhmm. And he uses us to ask people questions like that. Right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Nate Westwick:But every situation calls for something different, and I think that's the beauty of a relationship with Jesus is that he knows you well. He knows me well, and can ask those penetrating questions that actually lead me into more of myself. Mhmm. And that's a beautiful thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I was listening to a podcast today by N. T. Wright, and he was talking about how the American church has only had one half of the justification conversation. And so for those of you who don't know what justification is, is this idea that because of what Jesus did for me on the cross, I'm justified.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I grew up in Calvary Chapel in my faith early on, and Greg Laurie would say this, it's just as if I never sinned. So that's the way that it's explained in the Western church, and he just said justification comes to us first in Galatians. And it's not a judicial problem, it's a relational problem. Do I have to be Jewish to be Jesus? And so you know, what he what he talked about was justification is this idea that because you're in Christ and I'm in Christ, we can share a meal together, we can eat together, we can pray together, and I don't have to be Jewish to worship God with you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's this idea that Christianity is around the table. Yeah. From the very very beginning, it was a with others religion, and the blood on the cross not only makes me right with God, but it makes me right with others. Yep. And so the church is to be the model of multicultural, multiethnic, multiple languages.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We are to do it better than everyone else, because we have Jesus that brings us together. And so get in a small group today, I can't I can't encourage you. You know, there's just so many people, I was talking to a guy, and you know, he he says he listens to this debrief. Don't know if he does or not. So if, you know, you hear this, be convicted, but I don't want you to feel bad.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But we're just having a conversation, and he literally just rattled off, oh yeah, I was born again two years ago. Jesus changed my life. And I'm like, oh. He goes, I go to your church, and I said, oh, what campus do you go to? And he's like, I haven't been in two years.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And that's not even a problem for him in his religion. Mhmm. That he can be that disconnected. And on TikTok everywhere, I'm watching these guys that are like, you don't need to go to church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You you know, tell me the place where it says you have to go to church on Sunday, and and what I would say is, okay, there's a limited verses where I could point to that, but it's because they were doing life together Monday through Sunday.
Nate Westwick:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They were a they were a family. Well, and
Nate Westwick:I would even say like Yeah. If you haven't been to church Yeah. Set foot in a church Yeah. And see how you feel afterwards. Yeah.
Nate Westwick:I mean, it's almost impossible to walk into a church without feeling uplifted, and that's not coincidental. Yeah. It's because the Holy Spirit is there. We need to engage with the Holy Spirit on a regular basis.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm glad you said that. You know, I got to sit in church with my wife and kids when John Bevere preached, and I was just weeping through worship. Yeah. And part of that was because I didn't I wasn't worried about preaching. Like, I'm like
Nate Westwick:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, you know, do I have to pee? Am I gonna burp? You know, like, you know, am I ready? Is the crowd full? Is it not full?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, these are all the things fleshly that I worry about because I'm a human being, and I was just able to sit in worship, and I just wept. It was just it was beautiful for me to be in church. And so
Nate Westwick:Well, the church family is so powerful. Even just this past, you know, recently, I was gonna give a specific time But recently, was with some family, and and it was a really great time, but there was also something missing. Mhmm. And as I was processing that with my wife, was like, man, I just I can't wait to go to church and just be around my church family. Because it's a, you know, church is a place where we can love and receive love Mhmm.
Nate Westwick:Where we can be in community, and there's something special when the Holy Spirit engages with other people. And yeah, man, was like water to my soul. It was great.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And you know, there's just a lot of judgment out there socially against the church. And again, people take one wound, one experience, and they make that true for 3,400,000,000 Christians on
Nate Westwick:And the truth is we do get wounded by the church. Yes. Oh, yeah. So but how do we recover? Yeah.
Nate Westwick:Right? Are we gonna let that take us out, or are we going to find people who can usher us through those stages and say, you know, Jesus hasn't abandoned you. You may feel abandoned, but he didn't abandon you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Well, mean you got wounded, and it was real.
Nate Westwick:It was real.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But God used the pastor Mhmm. Of a church that you didn't go to, and we sat down, we talked to begin redirecting you on your path. And so not to push my book, but in my book I I actually was on TV this
Nate Westwick:week. I wanna push your book, because your book is excellent. Oh, thank you. It really is.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thank you. Yeah. I was on a TV show Monday morning, time change. Let me just tell you, I don't know who booked that, but so it was an East Coast Oof. An East Coast show.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So literally our crew is setting up the cameras. Dark outside on Monday morning, 6AM, which is really 5AM.
Nate Westwick:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I know we got construction people in our church. I love you. God bless you. I cannot do that. Don't You're
Nate Westwick:a more man than I am. You know? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They went to the tomb early in the morning, and he was not there. So that's why I I worship God later. But you know, the the host was reading the chapter on emotional healing. Mhmm. And what I said in that chapter was, look, people Satan uses people's hands in words to wound you, but the Lord borrows other hands
Nate Westwick:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And other words to heal you. So good. And so what I love in that story is did you did you finish the book yet? You're much faster. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. Yeah. So I used the story of the woman who bled for twelve years. And Jesus does this incredible thing. So she touches her robe, she's healed, miracle, right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's what we all want. Yep. And he publicly embarrasses her and calls her out by name. And so why does he do that? It's not to embarrass her, it's to set her free.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yep. Because what she needs to do is tell her story. Mhmm. And so, right, so people have shamed her, mocked her, isolated her, probably had no family. If she had a husband, he had long left her.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so Jesus says, you know, tell your story, what happened? And he calls her out, and so part of our emotional path and healing is being called out and saying, and I'm so grateful that you reached out to me. We were able to talk, and that helped get you on the right path Yeah. Because you were a true believer that got wounded. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And
Nate Westwick:Well, I think with the lady with the bleeding too, you know, I've gotta believe that she touched the fringe of his garment because she didn't feel worthy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes.
Nate Westwick:And for Jesus to turn and and just look her in the eyes Yeah. Is like, hey, I see you. Yeah. You actually matter. You have dignity.
Nate Westwick:You have worth. Yes. And that's so important. Yeah. So important.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's God. Yeah. So if you're not attending a church and you're listening to this podcast, first of all, thank you, but get to church.
Nate Westwick:Get to church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Even if it's not Sandals Church, get to a church, a great church. There are tons of great churches, and get in a church, get in a great Bible believing community, and I love you guys. All right. Let's jump into the first question. Samaya, actually I think it's Samaya from Riverside, California.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know this gal. Does God still discipline or punish us? This is a great question. You want me to go first or you?
Nate Westwick:I can take a stab. I, you know, I'm a parent of three teenage boys.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Nate Westwick:I hate to discipline my kids. Mhmm. If I'm angry, and I'll tie this into God in a second, if I'm angry, I'm a I'm a bad disciplinarian. Okay. But if I allow natural consequences to pay to play out Yeah.
Nate Westwick:That's actually more loving than swooping in and trying to rescue. Mhmm. And so, you know, God puts those parenting instincts in us because he is the ultimate parent. And so I would say, you know, does God punish us? To me, that's a question about the heart of God.
Nate Westwick:Mhmm. You know, is God for you, or is he against you? Because if we believe God is against us, we have a false view of God. Mhmm. But if we believe God is for us, it doesn't mean he's gonna protect us from any discomfort, but it does mean that in his for us state, he's gonna allow us to experience natural consequences of decisions we've made, good or bad, so that we can ultimately draw closer to him.
Nate Westwick:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Man, that's a fantastic answer. Samaya, so I I would parse the word discipline from punish. So I would separate those words. So does God discipline us? Yes, every day.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So the book of Hebrews says God disciplines those he loves. Mhmm. And the number one issue in every social study on this is revealing, we're not raising good kids in America because we don't know how to discipline. Yes. Our school systems, education is a disaster because we're not disciplining kids.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We're making excuses for behavior, and we're not allowing them to experience consequence. Yeah. And so and so, you know, and so it affects kids long term because they don't know how to deal with consequence, disappointment, they don't develop grit. Resilient. So because God loves us, right, he allows us to do that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So then the word punish. Is God punitive? Occasionally. For example, this is really hard for a lot of Christians. David sins, he has an affair with Bathsheba, and then he tries to cover up the sin.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This is an egregious sin. He murders Bathsheba's husband, who by the way is loyal to him. Yep. And he kills him, and so the Lord takes the life of his child. And so when people read that so here here's the question I think, Samaya Samaya, sorry, is is the Lord going to punish me like he did David?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So my question would be, Samaya, are you the king of Israel? So here's what is throughout scripture. The greater the leadership, the greater the responsibility. David was handpicked by God. He was a shepherd, you know, and God gave him the lottery numbers, right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Here you go, here's the numbers, and so there was some accountability there. And so God, yes, God did punish David for his sins. He actually let David, in some occasions, choose his punishment. Mhmm. But David had to be held accountable for the fact that he was the king of Israel.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Also, the people of God in the Old Testament are chosen, and they enter into a free will agreement with God where God says, if you don't remain faithful, I'm gonna hand you over to the natural consequences, and allow other nations that I've protected you from really to feast upon you. And so I would say, Samaya Samaya, sorry. I get her name wrong every time. Samaya, yes, there are natural consequences to life, and and we all experience that. So now let's move forward.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know
Nate Westwick:our sin. Yeah. About significance. Because I think a lot of people, especially young people, want a life of significance. Yes.
Nate Westwick:And we have to be careful what we ask for. Yes. Right? Because to the higher level that we rise, more is gonna be asked of us. Mhmm.
Nate Westwick:God's gonna hold us to a higher standard. You know you know that firsthand as a pastor. And so, you know, not that we should strive for insignificant so that we can get by scot free, but I think you're absolutely right. God does punish certain people Yeah. For, you know, their responsibilities.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's one of the things when I interact with the wealthy in our church. I worry for them. Mhmm. Because they've been given so much. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And not if you're a wealthy person listening, I'm not saying this is you, but most of the wealthy people I interact with are not generous. The most generous people in our church are people like me and you, everyday people that love God, love our life, and you know, we pay our bills, and we we do the best that we can. And so, you know, James says, in the book of James, those who are in leadership will get a stricter judgment. Mhmm. And so I will be held more accountable than the average person.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, and I think that's important for all of us, because we've all been disappointed by leaders Yeah. Who are, you know, making millions of dollars, fleecing the church. You know, whenever, you know, the church sets my salary, the board goes into a room, I'm not present, but I'm always thinking about, you know, the single mom in our church Yeah. That's trusting God and writing checks, and I'm more blessed than that financially. But I always in the back of my mind remember that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That you know, part of the way I make my living is off the generosity and faithfulness of the people of God, and I never ever want to forget that. Yeah. And I know, you know, I feel like with government oftentimes, and this isn't a you know, I'm not going after anybody that works in government, but I don't feel as an American citizen that my hard earned dollars are carefully spent. Mhmm. I feel like oftentimes they're wasted, and those are hard dollars for me to come up with, and so I want, as a church, for us to be very, very careful with how we spend God's money.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's really easy to just be like, well, it's a big church, so there's lots of money, so we can do what we want. Okay. So I know our sins are forgiven when we repent, but does he still let things happen to maybe teach us a bigger lesson? I would say absolutely, and that's just the natural consequence. So the Bible doesn't teach karma, but it does teach sowing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. So what you sow, and and I know everybody's like, okay, so knitting? No. Farming.
Nate Westwick:For our Indiana listeners.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. For India for our Indiana listeners. What you plant in the ground, that's what's coming up. Mhmm. And so the more sin you plant, the more sin is going to sprout.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now it may not come today, it may not come tomorrow, but eventually, if I plant corn in the ground, corn is gonna come up. And so we gotta be careful, you know, that, you know, we don't we're not Buddhists, and we don't believe in karma because we believe in grace, and so grace intervenes karma. So karma, a Buddhist doesn't have grace. Like you just you're just caught in this cycle of life
Nate Westwick:Yeah, what you're doing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Until you get it right. You're trapped on a Ferris wheel, basically until you eventually hit nirvana where it's just like, okay, you've gotten good enough to where you get to cease to exist. That's their heaven. Yeah. And I know Buddhists try to shape it around our personal heaven, but it's just not.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's just literally like, you get to be done now. But for us Christians, man, when I sow sin, God can forgive me of my issues with him, but I have to face the consequences of life. Like for example, I was talking with a young man in our church who accidentally, his statement not mine, killed somebody. And you know, we were talking in the room, and he just wanted to know would God forgive him? And I said, of course, but that doesn't mean you don't have to deal with the law, because you've taken someone's life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And his parents didn't appreciate that, they didn't like that, but that's the truth.
Nate Westwick:That is the truth.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When we, and so many young people today, you know, don't understand, you know, consequences. We watch movies and TVs, and and and so like everybody lives, and there isn't really, you know, consequences of playing video games, but when somebody dies because you're fooling around, there's a consequence. And ultimately what I told him is, you know, you're probably gonna be incarcerated. And and his parents didn't like that, because what they wanted was God to, you know, make it all go away, and I don't know that that would have been beneficial. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think he needed to, you know, face the consequence for his sin, which ultimately led to the the loss of someone's life. And and so Well,
Nate Westwick:when you talk about reaping what you sow, and I think, you know, it can be really easy in Christianity to what Dulles Willard calls the gospel of sin management. Yeah. So you're you're talking about planting corn. Yeah. You know, say you're planting corn and you're hoping peaches grow.
Nate Westwick:Yeah. You know, we're gonna trim off all the corn and you're dealing with everything external, but what we really have to do is to get into the heart level. Mhmm. What is it that I'm focusing my attentions on? What is it that I'm, you know, what sow what seeds am I sowing in my heart?
Nate Westwick:Right. Because out of that place, everything else is gonna flow. And so, you know, I think we get it wrong as Christians when we try to manage our behavior, and and with and that's where that pursuit of holiness comes in. Right? Like, do we transform ourselves from the inside out so that we have more good fruit being sown rather than, you know, yeah, and nobody's perfect, and we're all gonna have stuff we need to trim off and things like that.
Nate Westwick:But I think that's where that transformation piece comes. And so, you know, to your sowing corn. Yeah. You know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so Samaya, you know, there are consequences that you're going to have to live out for the choices that you've made, and we all experience this. Mhmm. But, you know, the beauty of Romans eight twenty eight is that God can use all things for good to for those who love him and are called according to his purpose. And so
Nate Westwick:And I think people miss that Yeah. Because they think, okay, I did the thing. It's gonna be good instantly. Mhmm. And that's not the human experience.
Nate Westwick:That's just not true.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And I think
Nate Westwick:it does ultimately end up in good if we allow him to.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I grow, I hate this, but I grow far more through suffering and failure than I do through success.
Nate Westwick:Wanna say amen, but I don't wanna say amen. I know. It's so true.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Amy, Crestline.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Once you've confessed sin, how do you move forward from the guilt? Wow. This is a great question. It's a great question. You wanna go or me?
Nate Westwick:Sure. I think I I would I would if if Amy were sitting here, I'd ask her, are we talking guilt or are we talking shame? Mhmm. Because those two things need to be differentiated. So if a lot of times I think we can feel guilt, and that can be a healthy thing because it can pursue it can push us toward God.
Nate Westwick:But if we confess and God has forgiven us, but we're still feeling that shame, which is normal if you've done something wrong, you know, you one would feel shame. But, know, as you've pointed out, shame is like, there's something wrong with me. Yeah. What kind of a person would do the thing? Right?
Nate Westwick:If I'm holding on to that, there's something that I'm not free from. You know? And so in James, confess your sins to one another so that you may be healed. Mhmm. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
Nate Westwick:That that's where the community piece comes in. You know, that's where if I if I tell you about the thing I've done Mhmm. And you still receive me and you don't shun me
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Nate Westwick:Now I'm free. Right? At least that's the first step toward freedom. And so, you know, depending on where you said it was Amy? Mhmm.
Nate Westwick:Depending on where Amy's coming from, I think the guilt can be a powerful motivator. I don't wanna do that again. I feel bad for the way I treated my wife. I wanna, you know, treat her with honor and respect. That can be a powerful motivator.
Nate Westwick:But if it's shame, I'm a horrible person because I, that needs to be brought to Jesus, and it needs to be brought to somebody else. And, know, through someone else confessing
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, Amy, I wanna encourage you to get the book Everyday A Miracle. I believe I think it's chapter nine. Can you guys tell me which chapter's on spiritual healing? I think it's chapter nine on spiritual healing, but I talk specifically about my journey with guilt, and my journey with shame, and the enemy had really embedded himself in the gospel was for everybody but me.
Nate Westwick:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Everybody else can receive forgiveness but me. And here's how Satan worked his way in my mind and in my heart was, well, Matt, you knew better. See that shame? Yep. And so I could never be set free because I wouldn't preach the gospel to myself.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And in the chapter I sit down with Doctor. Kraft, and he he just had me preach the gospel to myself. Mhmm.
Nate Westwick:So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I did, and I'm telling you, it was a powerful moment where I was free from that. And it's okay to regret decisions lifelong. I mean, I don't think you should be like, oh yeah, I get that, you know, whatever. You know, I don't take pride in my sins. I take joy in the fact that I've I've been forgiven, and I've grown from them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then there's one other piece in in being set free, and you mentioned it, you know, James five sixteen, confess your sins one to another. So listen to these words, Amy, so that you may be whole and healed. And a couple of weeks ago we had just a moment of church wide confession. Mhmm. And one of our female ministers said that, you know, there were so many people that came forward for prayer, and so she just ran up, and she just said, a woman confessed and said, I was gonna take this to my grave.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I feel so badly that she was carrying that, and she was able to look somebody in the face. And if you're listening, and that was you, I she didn't tell me what you confessed. That's not my business, you know. She didn't share with me what it was, but she shared how meaningful it was to be able to look somebody in the face Yeah. And have that be released.
Nate Westwick:And if you haven't done that, that's where healing is found. I mean, really try it this week. You know, we talked about try going to church. Find someone who's safe. Yeah.
Nate Westwick:That's that's key. And and just share. Mhmm. And be amazed at what can happen. Like you'll feel lighter.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And you gotta be careful. There was a guy in our church, you know, I I've I've known him since he was a teenager, and he's in his mid thirties now, and you know, I mean he was a wreck early on. Struggling with drug addiction, depression, you know, suicidal thoughts, and he just said, hey, I want to share my story with people at work. And I said, woah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I said, woah.
Nate Westwick:Gotta be safe people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. I said, I love you, and I will never use anything that you share against you. I want you to be careful.
Nate Westwick:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So there is a power, there's power in sharing our testimony, but people, you know, people can use that against us competitively, and so you I I would say this, it's important to share, you know, something with someone, but you don't share everything with everyone. Right. And I'm I don't know about you, you're probably not, I'm an overshare.
Nate Westwick:Yeah. I
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:overshare. I'm always like, oh, that was a little awkward.
Nate Westwick:My wife looks at me like, really?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh yeah, no. I so everybody pray for me. I overshare. I give too many details, I talk too much. That's my sin issue.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Some of you, you don't tell anybody anything, and that's your issue. And so we all have to kind of understand where we're coming from. So, but what I would say is the way that you move on from guilt is I would start journaling. You're a great writer, and I would just say, Lord, I'm struggling with this. I went back, I I found my journal from 2007 to 02/2009.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:My wife's like, I didn't know you journaled this. I did it at work. Yeah. And it was interesting as I was struggling with some of the same things that I struggle with now, and then some things I've been set free from. Yep.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I rejoiced then, I was like, wow, you know, thank you Jesus. And so I was able to get over some of those things. It's the power of journaling. So I would say maybe Christian counseling, small group soul care, and really be intentional about working through that. And know we all make mistakes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:All of us make mistakes, and it's not about perfection, it's about direction. But you know, what I would say is
Nate Westwick:But you have to forgive yourself I think that's one of the hardest things is like, okay, Jesus forgives me, but in in, you know, in in areas where I've struggled in this, there's there's some dark side of me that wants to hold on to not forgiving myself because it's like that self flagellation. Right? Yeah. Okay. Well, I deserve this and so I'm just gonna hang on to this to my grave or to whatever Yeah.
Nate Westwick:Because I deserve it. Mhmm. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about the gospel is Jesus says Yeah. You do deserve it, but you don't have to carry that. Amen.
Nate Westwick:And watch how free you can walk if you don't have to carry that. Yeah. But but we struggle with that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And for our non math majors, flagellation is self punishment. See, this is what happens when we talk with smart people. They use big words.
Nate Westwick:That's fair.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know. You know? I'm more like Trump. Bigly. Hugely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I love how he describes stuff.
Nate Westwick:That's too good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Okay. Sammy from Instagram. Thank you, Sammy. How can I continue to support and encourage my partner's spiritual journey even if they no longer believe in God?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow. Sammy, praying for you. Love you. Thank you for listening. Great question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You wanna This is a tough one.
Nate Westwick:It's a yeah. This is not a softball question. I love it though. You know, support's an interesting word. To me, how can we live a life that's inviting?
Nate Westwick:So so I have somebody very close to me who has used to lead worship in the high school youth group, has completely walked away from the faith, has has said he he no longer believes in God, and it breaks my heart. And so I pray for this person all the time. And one of the things I found myself praying recently, because this this has been going on for twenty plus years, and it seems like there's no progress. And so I found myself lately praying, God, how should I pray for this person? Right.
Nate Westwick:Because it's really easy to to pray our will, and I think we should. But when we don't see movement, I think it's a worthwhile question to ask God how he would want me to pray for that person. And so, you know, what I got was pray that he sees my value. Pray pray that he sees his value. And okay.
Nate Westwick:And that fits. It fits so well because you know? And so I don't know. You know, we're going through a series on miracles, and I don't know what God's gonna do. Mhmm.
Nate Westwick:And, you know, the the tricky part about free will is God God's not going to force this person to turn back to him. This person has free will to choose or to not But I think God can continue to invite and to continue to to, you know, knock on the door. And so as I've prayed for this person to see his value before God Yeah. I'm hoping, you know, I'm hoping that God, you know, can and will do a miracle, and I don't know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, amen. Sammy, here's what I would say is, I would just tell your husband how much you love him, how much he means to you, and how much you care about him, and then I would just share how important God is to you in a nonjudgmental, noncritical way, and then I would just ask, how can I support you on your spiritual journey as you've chosen not to believe in God? Because you're the closest person to me on earth, and yet at the most intimate level we disagree.
Nate Westwick:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's a real problem for us. So what would support look like for you? And then hopefully, if he loves you, he might ask this question, well, what does support look like for you as a person who holds these values and cares about these things? And a great book I would encourage you to read is, gosh, we're just throwing books out, but it's A Grief Observed by Sheldon Van Ochten. Did I get that name right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sheldon Van Ochten. They'll put it in the notes. And it's a Severe Mercy, fantastic book. And his wife I'm sorry. Severe Mercy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Severe Mercy by Sheldon von Ochten. So his wife becomes a Christian, and he's bitter. Mhmm. Because, I got it right, because he just thinks God is ridiculous.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so ultimately, here's the beauty, Sammy, is it didn't drive a wedge in their relationship, it actually brought them together. That doesn't always happen. I'm not saying that's not gonna be your story. But again, I just I would just say, can I you be a great wife, a loving wife, a supportive wife, and it's easy to be critical?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's hard to be supportive. So I will be praying for you.
Nate Westwick:And I would say too, there's a reason this person walked away from God. And this probably goes back to church or Christian hypocrisy, whatever the thing would be. And I think it's a very worthwhile prayer to also say, God, how can I show this person your love? How can I model that well? And that can take on all kinds of different forms, but I think that the more that you know, if if someone close to you is struggling with their faith, the more that you and I can be as the best examples of Jesus in their life as as possible.
Nate Westwick:And to admit, hey. We're we're messed up, or here's our journey, and here's where we screwed up or whatever. I think that that those types of authentic authentic excuse me. Those types of authentic moments can really, you know, hopefully pave the way for that person to reenter and and reengage with God. But ultimately, it's out of our control, which is which is hard.
Nate Westwick:Yeah. It's really hard.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Alright. Anne from Redlands. Reading through Exodus, what was the point of God hardening Pharaoh's heart so many times? I'm not understanding why God would ask Moses and Aaron to free his people, but then make it difficult by hardening Pharaoh's heart. So Anne, there's a series, what did we say it was?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was January '20
Nate Westwick:I think it was '23.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it was called? Was Sorry. Old Rules for New Life. Okay, there we go. Sorry, Old Rules for New Life, I should know that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was my sermon series. But I specifically unpacked this, and it's hard sometimes in English, and I don't know what translation you're reading, but you know, the Hebrew is a little bit different than our English language. And so if you look through it carefully, a great English translation will say, and Pharaoh hardened his heart. And you'll see that multiple times, where Pharaoh is choosing to harden his heart, and then there's a shift. And then it says, and God hardened his heart.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And there's a specific number of times where Pharaoh freely chooses to harden his heart, and then ultimately God seals the deal, sears his heart, and cements it. And so, you know, theologians call this judicial hardening. And so unfortunately, you know, in our traditions, you know, we like to believe that no matter where you are, no matter what you've done, you know, God can speak, and you're going to respond. But what happens as God speaks, and we reject God, our heart gets harder. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we become more jaded and more angry. And then eventually, you know, I don't want to say it's impossible, because all things are possible with God, but it becomes extremely unlikely that a person will ever repent because they've hardened their heart. And so we see this, you know, throughout scripture. And you know, the word is sclerosis in Greek, and it's where we get our our actual word for heart disease. I mean, it's it's the same word in Greek that's described in the New Testament.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I can't remember the word in Hebrew right now, but it's, right, disheartening. And so when I have a friend of mine that's at the heart doctor today, and right, they're looking for damage. You can't undo that damage. So, but what we can pray for is an intervention. And so what I would just say is, you know, there was hope for Pharaoh, but ultimately, I mean, what do you do when he just sees miracle after miracle after miracle, and it's clear the Hebrew god is a different god?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And many people don't realize this. When the people of Israel fled, it wasn't just Jews that fled. So, you know, Egypt was a multi multicultural, multiethnic, multi religious society. It was like New York City. People saw God move, and so they fled.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that's why the law and all of the things come down, the covenant that God, you know, gives them, and then when, you know, Moses goes up on the mountain, you know, Aaron's left with a lot of pagans, and they're far more Egyptian than they are Jewish, and they start partying and worshiping a cow. Mhmm. You know? And so God has to help them learn what it means to really follow him. And so so Anne, I don't agree with the with with how the English makes you think.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What I would say is, I think it's pretty clear that multiple times, God, you know, Moses goes before Pharaoh, and Moses or Pharaoh chooses to harden his heart.
Nate Westwick:Yeah. So And and I'm so glad you asked that question because I have a a good friend of mine who is agnostic, and this is one of the main reasons that he points that out. I I love that answer. It's an excellent answer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so, you know, there there there are there are groups of Christians called Calvinists, you know, who are fatalists, and so they believe that ultimately everything has been predetermined. I don't see that in the text. There there's there is difficulty understanding free will, and and what has God determined, because clearly we have some free will, and clearly God has determined some things, you know, and what has God determined? Whatever he chooses to determine, because he's sovereign.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But ultimately, I believe that human beings are responsible for their sin. Pharaoh is responsible for his sin because he had a choice, and it was a real choice. It wasn't a fake choice, it was a real choice. And he chose himself over the one true God. And ultimately, you know, I think that's why people will not go to heaven.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Not because God artificially hardened their hearts, but because they, through their own free will, rejected God, and over time the heart just becomes so hard that they they don't hear God. It's why the New Testament says, today when you hear God's voice, do not harden your hearts. That's an actual verse in scripture, and we have to be very, very careful because when the Holy Spirit's speaking, we wanna respond.
Nate Westwick:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We wanna respond in that moment because it's important.
Nate Westwick:Well, how many people see miracles like Pharaoh did and choose to believe something else instead of, you know, saying, well, maybe maybe there is something interesting going on. Right? That's a hardening of the heart
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:when we choose otherwise. No, man. So I mean, I I saw a miracle where I literally was talking with this guy who was dying of COVID, and we prayed together, not a believer. He went home like a day or two later from the hospital, totally healed. And I was talking with him, I like, so how does this encourage your faith?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And he goes, some people get lucky, some people don't. And I'm just my jaw Yeah. Drops. I'm like, that's not your attitude when you called me on the phone to pray with you.
Nate Westwick:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You weren't like, hey, it's math. Right. You asked the God of heaven to intervene. He did, and now you're just like, well, because ultimately, what's Pharaoh Pharaoh, if Pharaoh submits to God, he has to admit to all his people. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's not God, and we like worship. Mhmm. It's right? I mean, you know, it'd be pretty nice to be like, oh, you know, Matt Brown's God, right? And ultimately self worship is the greatest form of idolatry, which we all struggle with.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So great question. All right. Chantel from Fontana. Is it possible for both partners who are trying to break out of their toxic is it possible for both partners who are trying to break out of their toxic habits? Is it possible?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Can both mature if both are willing to work on themselves and walk with God? I would say absolutely, of course. It's going to be really, really hard to change the whole relationship if just one person changes. But we had the Millers, do you know the Millers?
Nate Westwick:Yep.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Man, if you guys are not involved in marriage ministry at Sandals Church, get involved. It is Miller time, it is time, these guys are great. But I love what Tammy said, you know, you can improve 50% of your marriage.
Nate Westwick:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You, and everybody who's listening who's frustrated with your marriage, and you're focused on your spouse, think about it. You can make today your marriage 50% better if you change. Mhmm. But what we often do is we say, let's do it together. And ultimately what marriage is, it's a daily practice of dying to self, and saying, okay, how can I improve this?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what I would say is if you're in a toxic relationship, I think it's harder to change because the old norms are just so powerful. It's truly hard to create new habits. So what I would do is I'd get in counseling, and I would just say, hey, let's do this, not guilt, not to throw mud at each other, but just to say, how do we change this? What are the habits that we've gotten into? What's our family history?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:How were we raised? You know, what's the brokenness that we inherited? One of the things I love that the Millers say is your problems with your marriage started before you ever got married.
Nate Westwick:Yeah. Yeah. What messages about yourself have you adopted along your path that you're bringing into that relationship that your spouse didn't deserve? Yes. Right?
Nate Westwick:And I would a 100% echo counseling is huge. But I'm hopeful. Right? If they're both pursuing God, and they're both pursuing God together, and they're seeking counseling together, I think some amazing things could be happening.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And it's gonna be hard. Mhmm. It's work. Yep.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, it's work. You know, Tammy and I, my wife turned 50 this year, so seven months ago, she said, hey, can I come to the gym with you? And I was like, okay, we gotta have some boundaries. Because you know, leading your spouse is is a difficult thing. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, I lead thousands of people. Leading my wife is way harder. It's hard one. Yeah. And so I just was like, look, okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so you know, it was really, really hard, and she was really, really frustrated, really sore, had a bad attitude, we had to have a couple of pep talks about that, and then all of a sudden, you know, it's her fiftieth birthday, and my son gets up to speak about her, and he's all, my mom's fiftieth year is the year she got jacked. So she's looking great, but it was a seven month process. And so any real change is hard change.
Nate Westwick:Yep.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know? If you're trying to quit your addiction to porn, like those feelings aren't going to go away, you have to rewire your brain, and that takes time. Takes time to eat better. Mhmm. Sleep better.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, the bad habits you've created, you didn't create those in a day. They're not fixed in a day. They're fixed over time. What we can ask the Holy Spirit to do is give us strength, continually inviting him. And the beauty of spiritual strength is we're both saying, okay, God, we need help.
Nate Westwick:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So help us here. So I would just say, I I absolutely agree with Nate. Yes. Yes. I mean, yes, you can change.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I see it all the time. I've seen I've seen God heal. I've seen God grow. But just know, it's it's going to be work. It's gonna be a challenge.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Tammy and I got in a fight over the feelings chart one time Mhmm. In the car, and she's like, we suck at the feelings chart. Yeah. That's why there's a chart.
Nate Westwick:Yeah. And you're getting better.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Right?
Nate Westwick:I mean, that's that's the whole thing. Yeah. Do you see it as a journey? Because and I would just say to this couple, like, don't give up. Yeah.
Nate Westwick:You know, it is gonna be, you know, a ton of hard work. Yeah. And and that's something that in our society we don't value as much anymore. And I think relational work is the most difficult. I can think of many a counseling session that I've just been exhausted afterwards, but it's worth it.
Nate Westwick:Yeah. You know, so keep fighting. Yeah. In a good way. Keep fighting for your marriage.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Alright. Paige from La Mirada. I live in an ungodly world. Yes, you do, Paige.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't know how La Mirada is, but that's pretty much everywhere. Live in California, so. Yeah. I live in an ungodly world with ungodly family members in an ungodly household. Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. Praying for you, Paige. How can I stop overthinking so much, and just get free and stay free? You know, they've done a lot of research on, you know, whatever you're focusing on has you, and so what I would just do is make a list every day of the good things that are happening. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because it's so easy to be overwhelmed by the negative, and so our brains are wired to focus on whatever they're thinking about. And so, when you you wake up in the morning, just say, okay, know, what does the Bible say? This is the day the Lord has made, listen to the command, let us rejoice and And be glad in so that's a choice. The Lord made the day, I'm going to rejoice in it. It's never going to go the way that I planned.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. You know, people are not magically going to turn into angels. You know? You know, it's so funny. You know, we have an election year this year, and people just think elections transform things, and I just always, yeah, but we're pulling from the same swimming pool.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. The same septic tank.
Nate Westwick:Well, we're putting our hope in the wrong things, if
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:that's So the what we gotta do is just say, okay, Lord. You know, Philippians says set your mind on things above. So what is God doing? What's happening in my life?
Nate Westwick:So Yeah. And I would just say, like, there's a couple things, but like, how how much control not control. How much power are you giving these external circumstances over your life? Because, yes, we live in an ungodly world. And I find the more time I look at the news Mhmm.
Nate Westwick:The more grumpy I get about the ungodliness of our world. Doesn't mean that we live in a rabbit hole and and never, you know, pop out to see what's going on. But I've noticed for me, I have to limit my news intake so that I can focus more on God because at the end of the day, God is sovereign. Yes. And yes, we're an ungodly world.
Nate Westwick:Yeah. Why are we surprised about this? For the ungodly household, you know, how old is Paige? Is she, you know Yeah. 13 and stuck with ungodly parents, or is she, you know, 26 and able to move out?
Nate Westwick:Because at some point in time, if things get so ungodly and so toxic, you know, maybe a change of scenery would be a good idea.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Page boundaries are an important thing. So one of the things I always point to in the last chapter in the Bible, Revelation 22, the city of heaven in Jerusalem has a wall around it. Yeah. And so like even God has healthy boundaries.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then it says why? Who is he keeping out? He's keeping out the dogs, the sorcerers, and the immoral practitioners. God is saying, look, even in this new earth, I'm going to protect you with a healthy boundary. And so many Christians have a hard time with that, because we want to love, we want to believe, you know, you've got to love the gorilla, just don't live in a cage with it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Because it's going to hurt you and harm you, and the thing you may need to do is to get out of that cage. And so I would say get in counseling, get in a small group, talk with people. Talk with people who know your story, because the negative part of counseling is the counselor only knows what you share. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's easy to dupe your counselor. And I'm not putting down counseling, but they can only interpret the information that they're giving. They might have some intuition, but you know, they might be missing some key details, because we all share things in a way that make us look better than and we we tend to share things making the people who've hurt us worse than they actually are. And so I'm not saying that's true in your case, Paige, but
Nate Westwick:I'd also say too,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:like Yeah.
Nate Westwick:The verse from Proverbs, you know, guard your heart above all else Yes. Because it is the wellspring of life. And and I just wonder, you know, you were talking about what do we focus on? And if I'm focusing on all the negative Yeah. That's gonna affect my heart.
Nate Westwick:Yeah. And if I'm focused so so what I would ask Paige, can you be an active participant in guarding your own heart?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Nate Westwick:And it doesn't mean that you isolate. It doesn't mean that you only surround yourself with people in your bubble, but it does mean that you do be intentional about protecting what's on the inside.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Amen. Alright. Thank you Nathan for being on the show. Is your book available on audiobook yet?
Nate Westwick:It will be on audiobook in about two weeks, we we predict.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. Yeah. How are you liking that process?
Nate Westwick:It's hard.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. I yeah. I I really struggled with it. Yeah. And so
Nate Westwick:It's way easier to talk than to read out loud.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow. And I'm dyslexic, so I just slaughter sentences that I wrote, which is really helpful. Right. You know, it's not like I'm trying to get in the the mind of an author. I am the author.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So make sure that
Nate Westwick:you But it is on Amazon.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Get this book on Amazon. Nathan Westwick. I never call you Nathan. Do you want
Nate Westwick:me call
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you Nathan? I call you
Nate Westwick:Nathan. I like Nate. Nate. Okay. Yeah.
Nate Westwick:But Nathan is my professional name.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Matthew is my professional name. Yes. Westwick, Clearing the Path. Get it today, and I'm gonna be praying for you guys.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So let me just say before we close, thanks for checking out this episode. You can always submit your own questions to the podcast, and let me just say this, the podcast is only as good as the questions that you guys
Nate Westwick:great questions today.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thank you for everybody to send those in. So send them in anytime. You can go to move.sc/ask, or you can go to the Sandals Church app. I mean, our app is fantastic. I hear this all the time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sandals Church is the best app of any church. Mhmm. So download the app, get that. My sermon notes on the weekends are on the app. There are all kinds of great things on the app that we just plans.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Bible reading plans, incredible stuff, this podcast. You can submit a question. So I will see you guys next time. Thanks for joining us, thanks, Nathan.
Nate Westwick:Thank you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, guys. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. My book Everyday A Miracle comes out March 5. Please preorder today. It is a book about a journey towards trusting God who heals inside and out.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thanks for watching the episode.