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For so many modern, driven women, life is about being more than one thing. We’re multidimensional—and so are our conversations. We carry multiple identities; we can be both mother and artist; both attorney and entrepreneur. Both clinician and CEO. Both humble and proud. Life for women like us is about both. About…all of the above. It’s about the “and”...
Jeni (00:01)
Hello, you are listening to the And She Spoke podcast and we are about to speak.
Sandy (00:08)
Jenny spoke, Sandy spoke. We're talking about something so wooed today outside of our usual topic, but I love it. I love it. I love it.
Jeni (00:17)
Heavy on the woo.
I think, I think life is leaning more and more heavily towards woo for both of us.
Sandy (00:23)
Yeah, we are embracing the woo, that is for sure. Okay, you know what we're talking about today?
Jeni (00:29)
Live it.
Sandy (00:31)
the goddess, the seductress Lilith and I'm fascinated with her. And I was telling Jenny all about her and she said, let's make this a podcast. So you are going to hear us just chit chat about Lilith.
Jeni (00:45)
Yeah, and why we think she's such an interesting historical figure and spiritual figure, kind of where Lilith shows up in each of our astrological charts and why you might want to look into your Lilith placement. Yeah.
Sandy (01:00)
Yeah. So then I have some references for everyone to do that. So it's really easy,
but I just want to say that I first became aware of Lilith in like 1995 when Sarah McLachlan started Lilith Fair. And I remember her being so mad that the promoters and the radio stations wouldn't play back to back female artists. And she got so angry and frustrated with the industry that she started Lilith Fair, which is of course all female artists. And she made
⁓ was a huge success. I think it ran for a couple of years. ⁓ she actually ended up making like 10 million for charity. And I remember, and I tried so hard to find this clip, but I remember Sarah McLaughlin talking about Lilith and how she's like the symbol of, ⁓ women empowerment and independence and autonomy. And I remember thinking that is the coolest thing in the world to create your own music festival based on this.
Jeni (01:32)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Sandy (01:58)
Lilith the goddess or the first female. I remember thinking that was amazing, but I didn't really understand what she meant.
Jeni (02:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, just I also
I also knew of Lilith from the same cultural reference as you and it looks like it ran during the summers of 1997 to 1999 and then was revived again in 2010. I feel like I saw Tracy Chapman at Lilith Fair and the Indigo Girls the first time. Yeah.
Sandy (02:30)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Suzanne Vega and yeah. Yeah, that's incredible.
Jeni (02:31)
Yeah, I was definitely there. Yeah,
I went to the Mountain View and yeah, Shoreline Amphitheater to the California folks listening to the show. I'm like just looking it up. Like I'm having these like memories and I remember listening to the Indigo Girls for the first time in concert and being like, what is this world? And there's just all these happy ladies dancing everywhere, which wasn't like a common thing in the 90s.
Sandy (02:58)
Yeah, yeah. No,
not at all, not at all. And it is weird to think that back to back female artists wouldn't be played in the 90s. Like that is absolutely insane. But ⁓ let me tell you, Jenny, can I tell you about her history of who she is?
Jeni (03:01)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes, I wanna hear it. I've only heard a little bit of this folks and I think I stopped Sandy very quickly into her sharing this with me so that we could just do it on a podcast. So we can all benefit.
Sandy (03:24)
Okay, so
first of all, I want to tell you really weird fact, and I don't know if I believe this, but I think it's interesting. In palmistry, which I know zero about, if you have Xs at the bottom of your hand ⁓ in the center, towards the center, you are a daughter of Lilith. I have them on both. So anyway, for whatever that's worth. But Lilith is really known...
Jeni (03:48)
yeah, I see a little X. have
a tiny little X on my right hand.
Sandy (03:51)
Yeah, they're
small. It's not in like the main lines. It's just at the bottom. Yep. So Lilith is known as the first woman. ⁓ She was even before Eve. apparent. Yeah, no, not necessarily in the Bible. Like she is referenced in. ⁓
Jeni (03:53)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, tiny.
In the Bible, just to be clear, right? Not in the Bible?
Sandy (04:14)
I have this one second. She is referenced in Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Hebrew, Arabic, and Teutonic mythology. Right. So she's really shows up in the Hebrew, um, in the Kabbalic literature a lot. Um, she was kind of erased from the Bible, which I'll tell you in a second, but, um, the story goes, and this is from, uh, Kabbalistic literature that Adam was created by God as we know, and
He, Adam was watching all the animals and they all had partners and he wanted to partner. So he asked God to create a partner for him. So God split him down like this way. like split them in half. So we had a front and a back and God made Adam a new back. And with Adam's original back, he put a new front, which was Lilith. So he therefore created a woman equally out of Adam, right? So it's different than, different than Eve.
And he wanted to dominate her. He wanted her to sort of succumb to him and his wishes. And she said, hell no, I won't. And she flew. So the story is that in all of the literature, Lilith always has wings. So she said, no, Adam, I won't. And she flew away and she lived for a long time near the Red Sea.
And Adam wanted her to come back. And so God sent three angels to talk to her and said, you got to come back to Adam. And she said, no, I won't. Like again, she refused. And I think that that's so for me, that's like so cool that she's like, no, Adam, no, I won't. I won't do what God said. I won't return, return to Adam. but these three angels, ⁓ wanted to bring her back and she said no. And they said to her, if you refuse, you know, this is death.
And she replied, well, how can it be deaf when God himself has ordered me to take, ⁓ charge of all the infants? So part of the story is like that she was in charge of infants, boys up to day eight and up to girls day 20. ⁓ but she said, I'll make you three angels, a deal. If I see the likeness or the names of you three angels on a child or on a household, I will not enter.
Because people were really afraid that Lilith was very much, she would kill children. She was horrible. She was the devil. Like she was a demoness, ⁓ all because she kind of, you know, said no to Adam. going back, so Adam couldn't get her to return. So God made him another woman, which was Eve. And he made it out of part of Adam, not equally split Adam, but like a rib, as we all know from the
the Bible. ⁓ and so now he had Eve, but there's so much in the literature of images of Lilith and Eve together. And like, there's ⁓ a lot of like, you know, the tree of knowledge, Adam and Eve, the tree of knowledge. And in that tree, they show like Lilith cause she's often portrayed as having the bottom half a snake. So she's like wound around the tree of knowledge and she's like holding an apple. So there's some
know, reference that maybe she was the one that gave Eve the apple. ⁓ anyway, I think she's fascinating. She's very much associated with the dark feminine, with snakes, with owls, with wings, fly, you know, flying creatures. It's not always owls and, snakes, but it, but often is in the King James Bible. she was actually, her name was taken out and replaced with screech owl.
Jeni (07:36)
Hmm.
Sandy (08:02)
So I think like she really, even though in a lot of the early literature, she was like, you know, very much a temptress and she was called a night demon. You know, as I said, people would hang these things on their doors to protect their children. Pregnant women would wear little amulets and they have beautiful, ⁓ the book I read is the book of Lilith and they have these beautiful, ⁓
images of what they from like a Syrian culture, they found like little, ⁓ you know, amulets with the three little, whatever the names of those three, ⁓ angels were. And anyway, I just, but I think like later on she started to get, ⁓ sort of revive with the feminist movement for somebody, for women who really have some, you know, feel oppressed by the patriarchy who want independence, who want empowerment, who don't.
Jeni (08:36)
Mm.
Sandy (08:57)
who want to say no, who want to have that own voice, who want that independence. I think it's just the coolest story.
Jeni (09:04)
And what do you, like having studied Lilith and read this book, like what do you think was the source of this mythology? Like what do you think was going on? Do you have a sense of what was going on culturally in ancient times that led people to fear this like flying devil?
Sandy (09:14)
Well,
because it was all written by
men. Like that is one of the theories by later feminists is like all of these stories, anything in like the Hebrew or Persian or Syrian, whatever, it was all male authors. And the fact that she like rejected the man made her, this is my own interpretation. The fact that she said no to Adam made her like,
a seductress and attempt, a temptress, like a evil person, right? You reject man, therefore you are bad. That's, that's how I, how I took it. And I think that's why some of the feminists started to adopt her, um, as theirs, but I don't know that I'm certainly no historian, but that is my, um, the way that I saw it. And I think too, like just, it's so easy to like,
Jeni (10:00)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Sandy (10:09)
You know, Lilith is going to come and kill your children. Like she's evil. Like that was the entire chatter. And there's all, so there's this thing called, I didn't know this, maybe this is common knowledge, ⁓ sorry, Jenny, think it's mid-rath, mid-rath. it's like interpretation. So you can read these, this, these writings literally. ⁓ or you can.
Jeni (10:32)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy (10:36)
You can sort of see like the deeper knowledge and the deeper stories and the deeper learnings, which is called midrath. So a lot of this is, there's so many stories about her, which is the midrath. I'm going to make sure I'm saying that word right. Because I...
Jeni (10:51)
I mean, I'm just like, I'm thinking of in Central America, the harpy eagles, like those giant birds that actually are capable of picking up small children and taking them away and feasting on them or feeding them to their babies. And I'm just wondering if there's like some historical reason that people were afraid of like a flying beast taking their babies in that part of the world. Who knows? Well, I guess we don't, I don't know. I don't believe harpy eagles live there, but.
Sandy (11:14)
Mm-hmm.
Jeni (11:20)
That's like, I'm just wondering like, where's the root of this like very human fear? I mean, owls symbolically, know in like indigenous people culture, in some indigenous people's culture, they are symbolic of like an omen of death. Just owls in general and other cultures, they're lucky. So I just.
Sandy (11:20)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeni (11:44)
That's
so interesting to me. I'm so curious, like what was going on culturally, like across many different ancient cultures, it sounds like that would lead people to fear these like flying creatures that they've now, you know, sort of juxtaposed like this woman.
Sandy (11:51)
Yeah, all through the Middle East, yeah.
Mm-hmm. You know, I
also went down this social media while TikTok rabbit hole with Lilith and people who are talking about her, people who work with her energy. And one lady, she's writing a book about Lilith. So I'm sort of following her because I want to read her book. She revealed something that she's going to talk about in her book that I don't think she meant to on this TikTok, but she basically said it. She said, it's so interesting to me that ⁓
In all the literature, as I said, they, she's always represented with wings. Like that is consistently that Lilith flies and she's like, maybe, maybe she was a archangel or an, an archangel. maybe like, why do all the just, you know, why is Michael an archangel and Lilith not? And so she really thinks like it's been so twisted, you know, an anti female and
Jeni (12:40)
Mm.
Mm.
Sandy (12:54)
you know, a powerful woman that there's something that we're missing. I mean, who knows? I don't know, but I just, I just thought, huh, that's kind of interesting, right? Like anyone who says rejects man says no, stands up for herself is evil, but maybe she's an archangel. I don't know.
Jeni (13:14)
And was there from the book you read, was there any indication that this mythology popped up throughout history between sort of ancient times and modern feminism or was she basically forgotten for all those years?
Sandy (13:31)
No,
this book is really about like thousands of years before Christ. Like she's really going through the stories of before. So a little bit after, but no, there's a gap there. Like I don't know, other than like to me, the revival was Sarah McLachlan. Like I don't, I mean, obviously I don't follow spiritual teachings closely, right?
Jeni (13:36)
Yeah.
Yeah, interesting. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, interesting. Super interesting. Yeah,
like, I wonder where that came, like where that where that lived. Like it lit, it stayed, the mythology very much stayed alive, right? Like it was just dormant people.
Sandy (14:06)
Well, it worked
into astrology, right? And I don't know that that's what I would be really curious about. Like who made so the astrology point is called Black Moon Lilith and it's actually the lunar apogee or the point in the moon's orbit that's farthest from the earth at the point of your birth. ⁓ so you can actually look on your astrology chart and find Black Moon Lilith and like, how did that happen?
Jeni (14:35)
Yeah.
Sandy (14:36)
Like who, did that? And like, there's also a, ⁓ an asteroid named Lilith too. So in your astrology chart, can also look to see the position of this asteroid. And I believe the asteroid is symbolic of like where you suppress shame, if I remember correctly. ⁓ but for the astrology side, like it really, where that is in your chart, it's, it symbolizes like repressed desires.
Jeni (14:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sandy (15:04)
Raw sexuality, independence, and the shadow self. So where you reject societal norms, where you refuse to conform, and where you hide, where your hidden power is, right? Which is like, yeah, yes, I want to know.
Jeni (15:07)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, this is so interesting. The Black Moon Lilith isn't a physical celestial body, but an astrological point representing the empty space in the lunar orbit. And ⁓ in modern astrology, she symbolizes the wild untamed aspects of the self that have been suppressed or exiled, which obviously goes along with them myth. ⁓ It looks like in astrology, it's dating back to like the like the 1920s or 1918.
Sandy (15:32)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Jeni (15:53)
where
that started to come about. this is really interesting, I think, to think about what a revival, like this exiled woman represents the empty space in the orbit of the moon.
Sandy (16:06)
Yeah.
Jeni (16:08)
like this missing piece or this like emptiness that we feel. And it's, don't think it's just particular to women, right? Like men have this astrological placement as well. So that's also, I think, quite telling that there's like this part of ourselves that we repress or suppress that astrology is trying to kind of create space for.
Sandy (16:28)
Yeah. So if anyone wants to look, we're going to talk about where it is in our own charts, but if anyone wants to look this up, ⁓ they can go to astrolibrary.org ⁓ and you can find black moon Lilith through there and it will, you just put your time of birth, your date and your location and it will tell you where your black moon Lilith is. And there is also an interpretation of what that means. So whatever. ⁓
house it's in and so on, will actually give you an interpretation. Anyone else who uses the other natal chart software, you can type it in manually and the code, I don't know if that's right, but H13 represents black-winged lillus. You can type in H13 manually and it will show you the position of that lunar apogee.
Jeni (16:58)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I find this website a little confusing. So for those of you that do use the the Chani app, it's in there too, just FYI, it's in there. If you have the Chani app, it's in the section that says like you, me, it says me in the middle of your app. And then you can like scroll down through your placements and you'll find Black Moon Lilith there too.
Sandy (17:39)
Yeah, if you go to astrolibrary.org slash black hyphen moon hyphen Lilith hyphen calculator, I'll put this in the show notes. It takes you right to the page and you can just pop in your birth information. Anyway, Jenny, where is your black moon Lilith?
Jeni (17:48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Like almost every placement I have, it's in Virgo. I am a Virgo heavy lady. We should just do a whole actually podcast on our own charts, Sandy, because I think that what an interesting thing to talk about without talking about the rest of our charts. But for those of you who love astrology and know astrology, I am Virgo, Sun, Scorpio, rising, Aries, Moon. Those are probably the three most prominent placements in my chart. But then like many, many other placements are in Virgo.
in addition to my son, including Black Moon Lilith. And what about you, Sandy?
Sandy (18:34)
I am in Gemini, which was like, what Gemini? I would nothing in Gemini. I don't know anything about Gemini, but it's really about like having black men, Lilith and Gemini is about an exiled voice or wounded voice. ⁓ silenced, mocked, dismissed for thoughts, questions or tone. my soul demands the right to speak truth, even if it's messy and inconvenient or goes against group think. ⁓
The shadow of it is really feeling misunderstood, self-censoring, ⁓ you know, questioning yourself. this thought, you know, enough? this original enough? Is it valid? Do I sound stupid? Like all of that, which you have witnessed over the years and the power of Gemini, ⁓ black moon, Lilith in Gemini, the power is like a sacred tongue, a liberating voice, ⁓ disrupting healing into, into it.
Jeni (19:19)
Yes.
Thank
Sandy (19:32)
what no one else will name, cutting through fluff, cutting through illusion. ⁓ And it said a natural gift for podcasting and public speaking and nothing that Lilith does. She doesn't do anything small. So it's always big, big scale.
Jeni (19:34)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sandy (19:51)
So what was the, I don't know that did you, do you want to share more about like the Virgo? What does it mean to you? Like how it shows up?
Jeni (19:56)
Yeah, so essentially
it's it's noble to be of service. Virgo is a very like service oriented placement, but be mindful of what purposes you're serving. This is very, very prophetic for me in my life. If the expectations projected onto you are not humane or life affirming, reject them and like really establish your own rules that are liberatory and nourishing to you.
Sandy (20:08)
Mm.
Jeni (20:25)
And when you devote yourself to your own wellbeing, you incite a replenishing rebellion. And so it's really interesting because as a Virgo who, I would say like my service and people pleasing has not been towards individual other people, but collective service, really focused on social movement, social good, and in the case of entrepreneurship, like.
creating something better for a large group of people, our customers, our audience, et cetera, but really at sort of the cost of my own sovereignty and well-being, personal well-being. And at some point that shit was gonna hit the fan. And I think this placement is really, really revealing there. I will also say, I don't know how much to go into this. ⁓
Sandy (21:10)
Mm-hmm.
Jeni (21:19)
Yeah, I'm like, it's a very much a call towards autonomy and refusing external pressures to seek validation from others. And like the real hero's journey is like personal for me, which is really different than how I've lived my life. But this is also very aligned with sort of like my Scorpio rising. And yeah, it was actually like very affirming for me to read this.
Sandy (21:46)
Mm-hmm.
Jeni (21:48)
and to learn more about it. So yeah, I mean, yeah.
Sandy (21:51)
Yeah, me too.
Like I just was like, what? Like that is a hundred percent my struggle for my whole life. And all I want to do is podcast, right? All I want to do is tell stories and use my voice. And so it was really, really affirming. And I think, I think it's worth for everybody to go and anyone who has any interest in astrology at all, like go and look at that because that is where your power is. Right. And
Jeni (21:57)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sandy (22:21)
I don't know, think knowing that makes you very magnetic too as a person. Like once you understand this, like where I don't conform and where I work, the sort of the power side of this, I think it's like you're unstoppable.
Jeni (22:27)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it also kind of goes along with that, that idea that what you're avoiding is probably like, where you really need to focus, like that is, I think a life principle worth adopting is like where you're what you're really avoiding, you need to deal with because there's like, getting through that there's some there's something liberation or whatever on the other side. ⁓ And for me, I think like I've really read you know, this I've really read, like wrestled with the relationship between empathy and power.
Sandy (22:43)
where should go.
Jeni (23:05)
and like humility and power my whole life. And what this Lilith placement has taught me is that like the things that I have put in this like selfish box are really the most helpful things I can be doing. Like it's like really like things like it even talks about my placement talks about your willingness to heed your inner call to adventure may trigger those who whose lives feel confined.
Sandy (23:21)
Hmm.
Jeni (23:35)
but it's actually incredibly liberating for people to see that. And I've always felt like that part of me that loves adventure is the most selfish part of me, if that makes sense. Or even the healing, Virgos are known for nature and wellness and routines. And I've always...
Sandy (23:47)
Mm-hmm.
Jeni (24:02)
Obviously we started a wellness company, but like I've always been like moth to a flame towards anything like healing and focus on like being a healthier, better version of myself. And I've always like felt like that. What a shitty thing to be like how selfish to want to be healthy when the world is suffering and people are starving and the environment is like going to shit and the forest are on fire, right? Like how self indulgent to want to be healthy yourself.
And I think that there is just like, anyway, it's also like growing up and evolving, but this placement is like, actually, like those things, you doing those things that you feel so freaking called to do are the way that you help other people.
Sandy (24:45)
Yeah, I've never once thought that in my life that being healthy or caring of myself is... yeah.
Jeni (24:47)
So that feels really.
Well, we're different, right? Because I've always thought, yeah,
I thought how selfish is that? How selfish? Because I'm relatively healthy, right? So to just focus on the plane with the knobs and dials to fine tune my own health when all of that time, money, energy could be spent to create systemic change and improvement that affects more than just me, that is my mental puzzle. So anyway, I'm sure there's a lot that the like...
Therapist listening could unpack from that. but like that, but astrology is like this really wonderful tool to help you confront parts of yourself that are maybe like not you haven't really thought through or dealt with. and so anyway, I think, I think that's really interesting because like both of us are very much like affirmed by reading these placements, these astrological placements. so, damn, what a gift.
Sandy (25:48)
Yeah, I also think like even just even if you don't look at your astrology, just this ⁓
And maybe this is just me, but like those moments where you're like, I don't want to do that. your, um, you know, your boundaries are being kind of pushed or threatened and this ability to think of a character, a person, a goddess, whatever you want to call her, who has like such tremendous strength and strong boundaries. And I will not conform.
Jeni (26:23)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy (26:23)
For me,
like it's just helpful to kind of tap into that energy to use kind of a overused phrase. Like I'm just going to use some Lilith energy here and say, no, you know, and here's what I'm going to do. Right? Like it, there's this, it's like a tool or an aid to kind of tap into that way of thinking. And it's not just me trying to people please or whatever. It's like, no, I'm going to like, I'm going to call upon her Lilith and I'm going to like use her and her energy and it's going to come through me and I'm going to.
Jeni (26:27)
you
Mm-hmm.
Sandy (26:52)
This is what I'm going to do, right?
Jeni (26:53)
Yeah,
yeah, I think that that is great. And the other thing that that like just my little dipping my toe into Lilith and my own placements astrologically here, my own placement is that I was really thinking through is like Lilith is really about confronting that sort of darkness or empty space or repressed part of you. And I think that in modern society, or at least this is my impression is that we really associate that like
repressed part of you with something that's like taboo. And I'm like, the things that I repress are really not very culturally taboo. And I think it's like, I think that that was very eye opening to me that the part of me that I'm like, I've put in the darkness in my adult life is like, things that are normal for other people. They're not like really
as you said, like I've never felt like that. it's so just because there's something that you're like hiding in the shadows and not dealing with doesn't mean it's like some deep, dark, shameful secret. It just might be the parts of you for whatever reason you've programmed yourself to to like set aside. And I think that that's like, wow, I didn't like really, I thought like repressed, like I felt like repressed parts of you were like, you know, these unspeakable things or like memories of something you
Sandy (28:07)
Yeah.
Jeni (28:14)
Like you couldn't even bare tariff think about and it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't have to be that deep or that taboo. Yeah.
Sandy (28:18)
Yeah, and like Lilith shows you, yeah, that
it's like where your actual power is to bring those repressed, dark thinking or thoughts or beliefs forward and make yourself more powerful in the world. I love it. I love it.
Jeni (28:24)
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, we should do a bigger conversation on astrology. Like, I will just say that that has been a huge source of, like, relief and self-learning for me in the last year, year and a half, like, in a way that, I mean, I was always sort of, like, a little interested. mean, interested, curious. Who doesn't want to learn about that? That's interesting. That's like, it's like learning about the
Sandy (28:56)
Yeah.
Jeni (29:00)
Meyers-Briggs or the Enneagram or whatever, you're like, yes, tell me about myself. Everyone loves that stuff. But to really go deep in astrology, and it's profound. Yeah, shockingly profound and a very helpful tool for self-realization. I'm sure our audience are, most people are fans of astrology, but if you haven't really dug deep into your chart,
Sandy (29:08)
Yeah, it's unbelievably accurate, like scary, scary accurate. Yeah.
Jeni (29:28)
or had a professional reading or like taken an intro astrology course or something and you're curious, like I just highly recommend it.
Sandy (29:36)
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I think we should do Joy and Hustle.
Jeni (29:40)
⁓ all right, well you start.
Sandy (29:42)
I
have, I have a joy that I, I know we last episode or sort of first one back after a long break, we have like this like list of things, but I'm going to say, talk about something that I'm loving. Like I just discovered, last week. ⁓ it's a little app. don't know why I said little, little, it's an app called macro factor. is where I track all my macro nutrients, calories and
Jeni (29:52)
Yeah.
Sandy (30:11)
so on. It is so good. I found it's... ⁓ a thousand, like probably ten...
Jeni (30:12)
And the better than the Lumen app better? good. Good. ⁓
so tell me what's so remarkable because I've tried a lot of these kinds of like eating and health app.
Sandy (30:22)
Yeah, yeah. So I asked my trainer, cause I was like
trying to find something, ⁓ that is easy to use and quick to add. But I also want to know like, what is my resting, ⁓ metabolic rate? And then, you know, for someone who's trying to gain weight or lose weight, you want to be able to adjust the calories accordingly, but not lose, you know, like you gotta still hit all those macros and I'm trying to, you know, I'm working out lifting. want to
Jeni (30:35)
Yeah.
Sandy (30:48)
have the right amount of protein and just to track that. And I just find it so hard. So anyway, this app is so good and it takes you through the beginning, ⁓ asks you like, what are your goals? You know, it asks you for obviously all the details, height, weight, whatever. ⁓ and then it just watches you for a few days and then it can adjust sort of the strategy of what kind of caloric, ⁓ goals you have. But the main thing for me is like the tracking. the food log, so you can hit, ⁓ the little plus sign
but you can like type it in and, or you can scan a barcode or you can, it's mostly us brands. ⁓ but you can also scan the nutritional, like, you know, the list on a package, tells you the macros and the calories and whatever you can scan that, or you can take a picture of your plate of food. It is so freaking accurate. I, I, I just, I didn't even use the picture thing for a while because I'm like, it can't be right. ⁓
Jeni (31:29)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Wow. Wow. ⁓
Sandy (31:45)
I had roasted potatoes on our plate and I used rosemary from my garden and even picked up like the rosemary in it. Like I it's it's a that part is AI. ⁓ my trainer told
Jeni (31:56)
Yeah, this is
like what AI is really good at. That is what a blessing.
Sandy (32:00)
⁓ but
even like the dashboard tells you like as far as calories, fat, protein, carbs on a really good little visual graph, like how far you are away from the goal. ⁓ I, I literally have no improvements on it. Like I just find it really intuitive to use. Also, the other thing is like, eat protein oats every single morning and I have a little thing I make.
Jeni (32:06)
you
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Great.
Sandy (32:26)
And I can like write a recipe and it's called protein morning protein oats, and I can just hit that. I don't enter it each time. So if you have a lunch or a meal that you repeated, you can just like add it once and then just hit one serving of that. Like it's so good. I just, I just can't. then every week it does a review of like, are you under, are you over, are you losing, gaining, maintaining, whatever you want to do? Like it goes to the strategy every week. We'll ask you a couple of questions.
Jeni (32:31)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy (32:54)
and it just keeps you on track. And I think that the owners of this app, they have involved some pretty big fitness influencers, like, you know, like, you know, lifting guys. And, and, my trainer said after those guys joined, it's just gotten so much better because they really, you know, obviously they use it all the time. So yeah, I'm just, it's the best app and it is, you have to pay, but it's not, I don't remember what it is off the top of my head, but it's not unreasonable. was looking at one that was like, like,
Jeni (33:05)
Yeah.
Mm.
Sandy (33:23)
⁓ I think it was like eight or nine dollars a month or a week, I'm sorry. And I'm like, ⁓ my God. And I don't even know if it's going to work. But this thing is I'm going to do the annual plan. It is so good.
Jeni (33:28)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it looks like great like UI UX I'll just say most of these apps that I've played with in this space are like fugly and this looks aesthetically pleasing and as people who like create technology products like that's really important to me. It's 2025 like you can't really get away with an ugly product, but somehow people do this looks like very clean. Yeah. Oh my god. Well, this is yeah, that's a whole
Sandy (33:39)
really.
Yep.
No, it's astrology needs to hear that. All the astrology websites need to hear that. this is,
Jeni (34:02)
conversation. When you were telling me what site to use for my Lilith
Sandy (34:05)
I know, I know.
Jeni (34:06)
placement, I was like, Sandy, that site is so ugly. Yeah, Chani's like, Chani's good. but I mean, that's why she has like, I don't, you know, I don't know, like, a lot about astrology, like, other than my one year of learning so far. But like, I have a sense that part of the reason why she's taken off is because her stuff isn't ugly and everything else is ugly.
Sandy (34:08)
I know they have there's no beauty well other than Chani Chani, but
because it's beautiful. Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeni (34:32)
So just gonna say that out loud. ⁓ Yeah, like I'm just looking at this. This looks like really intuitive and easy. Cool. I gotta go through the whole onboarding for it to tell me the cost. I'm doing it. I'm doing it. All right, I'll wait. Yeah. I'm sure it's reasonable. Yeah, and they all, like all of those are paid apps. Even Lumen, like I don't pay for it even though I have a Lumen.
Sandy (34:38)
Do you have the cost in front of you? Can you see that?
okay. Okay, never, nevermind. For what it is and what it does, it's so reasonable. So reasonable. Yeah.
Jeni (34:59)
because I just don't want to pay for it. it's always like they're sending me, yeah, it's like they're sending me like half, it's hundreds of dollars a year. And I'm like, I don't want to pay for this. Like I resent when I buy hard tech, like that's hardware, and then I have to pay like these exorbitantly expensive maintenance fees to use the app for them. know, I know there's a reason for it. It's the hardware is a loss leader, but that's a separate conversation, but yeah.
Sandy (35:03)
It's expensive,
No, no.
Yep, these membership ones,
Jeni (35:28)
Looks good. Okay, well I'm gonna download that. Thank you, Sandy. That's a great recommendation. ⁓ Where do I start? Well, I spend a lot of time in my journaling habit and my pen habit, and I got a new pen actually yesterday. ⁓ My husband brought it home. He went to pick it up after work. And it's kind of got, I would have thought this was hideous before I started collecting fountain pens, so I'm just gonna say that.
Sandy (35:31)
Yeah, it's good.
Jeni (35:54)
but it's my first of this brand. It's called Benu and it's a stub fountain pen. So it writes, ⁓ it's almost like baby calligraphy the way that it writes, which is really fun. I have another one, like a Lamy pen that does that as well. And I'm just starting to get into that sort of more like artistic, ⁓ artistic work with my writing, but I...
Sandy (36:05)
Mm-hmm.
Jeni (36:23)
I'm really into kind of the psychological effect of handwriting. Like I really think that there is something that goes on with like the practice of using your body in a way to perfect the design of something. Like it's a real art. And I've seen on like social media, on TikTok, I think like people talk about the importance of creativity every day, micro acts of micro creativity. And so for me,
Sandy (36:36)
I love it. Yeah.
Jeni (36:50)
like having something that's like challenging for me to write with. And I'm gonna write stuff down every day. Like this is the pen I'm using today. And it's like, I've never used this pen before. It's a different shape. It writes differently. It has different ink. I also have this like really special black ink with glitter in it that I also got yesterday. Like it is, it's like a micro creative act. So even if I don't make space in my day to like paint a watercolor painting or whatever, right?
you know, like write an essay or a short story or whatever, I still am incorporating these like micro creativity acts. And I love it. Like the joy, like the absurd amount of joy from something that's so useless. I've never really allowed myself to indulge in that until recently. Like every interest I've had has always had to be meaningful.
Sandy (37:27)
Mm-hmm. I love it.
Yeah.
Jeni (37:48)
know, to be leading to something and I just like, wow, you know, I'm gonna write with a beautiful... it's only gonna help me, but I think that that is adding to the greater good. That is such a fucking revelation. Maybe this is like a midlife thing that happens, I don't know. I just like, wow, I'm not helping anyone by buying this pen and that's fucking okay.
Sandy (37:53)
going to write with a beautiful pen. It's not going to help society and I'm okay with that.
Yeah, other
than the creator, the seller, but yeah.
Jeni (38:17)
Yeah, yes,
yes, yes. And this is like an Armenian company. Like this is a small company, not smallish company that came out of Russia and is in Armenia. And I love like learning about that. I love that. I don't even understand why I'm so interested. I love, but like everything, I write every day. Like if you're a person in the world, I encourage you to use a pen or a pencil or a piece of chalk and not do everything on the screen.
Sandy (38:31)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I totally agree. I find myself, like even lists of like to-do lists, I'm like, I'm not, I don't want to pick up my phone and there's a thousand apps, I get it, but I'm just going to have a list and it's going to have like crossed out and it's going to like, you know, be really ugly. But the act on Saturday morning, I sat down and I just did some things. wrote things I had to do. I like loved it and it was with a shitty pen and it was with a shitty piece of paper, but I still...
Jeni (38:59)
Yeah, me too.
Yeah. Yeah.
Sandy (39:16)
got a little joy and I like having it in my pocket as I go to all my places and crossing things off. And I was thinking about that, that I just, I know I just, my joy was an app, but I like want to get away from that a little bit. and just like write things down. So yeah, I agree.
Jeni (39:27)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that there is some sort of balance. Obviously, we have to have like, we run a tech company. Like there's, there's a balance like there's joy in technology too. Like I'm, I've been very like bullish on technology for a very long time. One of my best friends in grad school called me BB. I'm sure I've said this before, but I'll say it again, because I was addicted to my Blackberry. And like, I had a Blackberry before. I mean, I wasn't like,
running the world. Like I had a blackberry when I didn't eat a blackberry and I was addicted to it and I loved it and I the tremendous amount of joy I also am able to get from technology is very very substantial but like it's got to have a counterweight. Like you've got to do stuff with your hands and you've got to give your eyes a break and your brain a break and yeah it's really important. It's very very important.
Sandy (40:20)
Right.
There you go. We're
all gonna run out and buy fountain pens now.
Jeni (40:34)
my god, well, that's a I have a lot of I have a lot of suggestions for someone who would want to do that. I have some beautiful ones too. yeah, I mean, I think like just this is this podcast to me, Sandy, this revival is sort of like a little peek into our lives and our world kind of like post workaholic is ⁓ post burnout post pandemic of like, how do you
How do you operate in the world as like a healthy, sane person who finds joy and meaning and like, what does that look like? We don't have a vision for what that looks like in like a 2025 post pandemic world. Most of us are still flailing from what's transpired and we're living in a world that we necessarily didn't even consent to, right? Like, so where are you like kind of?
To me, it's an act of liberation to write with a pen and a piece of paper. Like no one is looking at that. Like all of the data centers popping up everywhere in the world are not analyzing what the fuck I'm writing with my pen and paper. There's something like liberatory about that. Feels so good.
Sandy (41:37)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure enough.
Yeah. Okay, folks, that's it. Thank you for listening and we'll be back in a couple of weeks with another episode. Thanks, Jenny.
Jeni (42:00)
See ya.