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Welcome to "Lessons from the Couch", where we invite you to pull up a seat and join Corina and Mariana—two marriage and family therapists based in Illinois—on a journey through therapy, life, and everything in between. In each episode, we have honest and engaging conversations with therapists and non-therapists alike, exploring their unique experiences in and around therapy. Whether it's the story of a therapist navigating early career challenges or a non-therapist sharing how therapy changed their life, our goal is to show just how accessible and transformative these conversations can be.
We also dive into the diverse career paths and personal journeys within the field of mental health, from seasoned professionals to those just starting out (like Corina and Mariana, who are at opposite timelines of their own therapy careers).
If you're curious about therapy, mental health, or simply enjoy meaningful conversations, "Lessons from the Couch" is for you. Get ready to think, reflect, and discover new perspectives one conversation at a time.
Follow Lessons from the Couch on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts to listen to new episodes.
Co-Hosted by Corina Teofilo Mattson and Mariana Reyes Daza. Show art by Jae Avilez. Music by Brandon Acosta.
If you're interested in therapy services, either in person or via telehealth, and reside in Illinois, visit www.liveoakchicago.com to learn more.
My job is to be steady and love people through their pain and honor those protective mechanisms, appreciate how they have kept them safe because they're pretty genius. They, at some point, were the ways that they survived. I think that not being afraid of big emotions and making people feel like a lot of the things that they bring in, can hold space for. And helping them reframe the shame that they might feel towards some of those behaviors with curiosity and awe and appreciation.
Corina:Hi, my name is Corina Teofilo Mattson.
Mariana:I'm Mariana Reyes Daza, and we are the co hosts for Lessons from the Couch.
Corina:Throughout this podcast, you're going to find us having intimate, deep conversations. We'll be talking to therapists and probably some non therapists, and we're going bring you into the therapy room with us. I want to know, first and foremost, how is mom life for you?
Angelica:Mom life is great. I was just with them right now. It's so funny, like the code switching that has to happen and especially working from home. Exclusively, I'm working from home. So it's like in between my sessions, I'm also then going and tending to them.
Angelica:And also because my hours I'm in The Netherlands. So, my hours I work in the evenings. So, I have to balance that with being a mom. But mom life is great. The two little ones.
Angelica:I have a three and a half year old and almost two year old.
Corina:Oh my gosh.
Angelica:Yeah, it's a very busy time. It's a very intense time. But their little personalities are just coming through as they get a little bit older, and it's sweet. They're now relating to one another more like brother and sister. Before, it was harder because of the age gap.
Angelica:It's sweet to see the hugs and the engagement.
Corina:That's a win. Any time they're hugging each other, that's a win, I think.
Angelica:Yeah, for sure. It doesn't happen that often, but when it does, it's like, Oh, how are your kids? They must be so big.
Corina:My oldest is 16. And she's driving and sort of dabbling and dating. It's a time. But what I would say is that the time you're in was the most exhausting time of my life, like of my entire life. I just say that to say one, I've made it to a less exhausting time.
Corina:Teenagers are hard in a different way, but not that way.
Angelica:Not in the exhaustion, the lack of sleep.
Corina:Yeah. And that as it was happening, it just felt like I would never sleep well again. And I'm here to say hopefully you will sleep well again someday.
Angelica:I hope so. I haven't felt that in like four years, so I'm hoping so. I'm looking to you and you're giving me good news. So I'll just I'll have faith.
Corina:I sleep well generally these days, which is like lovely. I'm excited to introduce you to to each other because you both have the TFI trajectory. I met both of you through the community program at the Family Institute, just at like different eras and times. So I'm happy to introduce you to each other and as we talk today, I'm excited for you two to get to know each other as well.
Angelica:Yeah, I'm excited too. Thanks for bringing me on.
Mariana:Thank you. It's been great to meet so many people that are at different journeys and their therapist selves, so I'm so excited to meet you. To start us off, we'd love for you to introduce yourself to our listeners in whatever way you would like them to know you.
Angelica:My name is Angelica Magana and I am a licensed marriage and family therapist. I am doing this now for over a decade, which is wild. I have kind of moved around quite a bit. I started in Chicago working with you, Corina, well, after graduation at Live Oak. And then I moved to California and did my private practice there and then ended up in New York for some time.
Angelica:And I'm part of a group practice there. And now I'm in The Netherlands where I also have a private practice. So, I've been all around the world doing this work, and it's been incredible to see the diversity of experience, but also, like, the similarities and experiences just being all over. I guess my specialty, I would say, is relational work as a licensed marriage and family therapist. But under that umbrella, it would be relational and developmental trauma, childhood trauma, complex PTSD, and, as you know, the kind of trauma that happens in environments or spaces where people expect care, nurturing, support, love, need those things, but do not, for whatever reason, get that.
Angelica:They get maybe neglect or abandonment or betrayal. And so not the catastrophic kind of one off events that we normally associate with trauma, but the effects of accumulation of ongoing relational injuries. So, I work with individuals in helping them understand the impacts of their relational injuries and trauma and helping them process and work through how it maybe shows up in the current day, because we all know that complex trauma can really alter our perceptions of safety and trust and connection. Therefore, I'd like really create some struggles in forging relationships or creating safety in relationships as there's a lot of deep seated beliefs and pain around people leaving or people not being there or not to be trusted, and the manifestation of that being avoidance, anxiety, or other kind of protective behaviors that kind of prevent people from being able to get the emotional closeness that they really want and need. I also work with relationships with helping couples understand the dynamics between them and the covert ways that these relational injuries can show up in their relating to one another and sometimes inflaming or reinforcing old wounds.
Angelica:And I really try to help couples then create new, more positive interactions, and especially in those difficult moments where there's so much related to the past possibly coming up, and create more meaningful engagement in those precise moments of difficulty so that the rebuilding of the sense of security and the reshaping of the belief and the perception of relationships. So, I really enjoy that kind of work. It's really helping facilitate the attunement between couples. But then also, I see my role as a therapist as giving that attunement to be able to create a secure attachment that maybe they never had a chance to experience previously. So, I believe a lot of the healing really happens in attunement, and that's really my focus.
Angelica:But also, I believe that healing requires kind of integrative approach, which I generally pull from different modalities and I'm trained in different modalities as a way to really be able to customize the therapy to what I think the client needs. Now I'm trained in EMDR and IFS and now getting training in somatic experiencing and really trying to broaden my toolkit to be able to help people because I realize not one size fits all, and it's just so unique, everyone's experience.
Corina:That's so fun to hear. You know, I haven't been connected or at least haven't had a conversation in a while. So it's really fun to hear the journey in the years since we worked together. And I'm so curious if you'd be willing to tell us about how you came into this expertise, the various roles that you've had, the various places you've done therapy, what led you into the kind of trauma work that you do today, and even what led you to decide to take on new areas of training EMDR, AFS, and now somatic experiencing as you move through the work?
Angelica:I wish I had a really complex answer, but I think it started with myself by trying to understand myself and wanting to understand why I did the things that I did despite the harm they caused. And I was really trying for a long time to just change my thinking or I was trying to change my behaviors. And it really wasn't getting to the heart of things. And at a certain point, I knew I was doing something and I knew I was doing the things I was doing but not being able to change them. So, I really had to dig deep and deeper than I'd ever experienced before and find all the places in my body that were carrying some of my own, like, attachment traumas, and I realized that I was just harboring so many emotions that I wasn't allowing myself access to, and I had to really dig in deep and try all these different ways of getting there and not to undermine the work of understanding my thought processes.
Angelica:I think that was necessary, but I also needed a little bit more integration with my body because I think that's how the harmonizing of different parts of the brain with the body and with the emotions is really key. At least this is what I discovered with my own healing, and then I think that I've been able to utilize that with other people to certain degrees of success as well.
Corina:Oh, that really resonates with me. My experience over and over is that the work I do is far more credible when it's done through at least 50% through the lessons of my own experience. The training is helpful, but I think about the things that I said to, for example, parents when I was a newer therapist before I was a parent. And I think, Oh my gosh, what grandiosity I had. Thinking and I can be kind to myself, but really thinking that I was really holding their context and then becoming a parent, having so much more compassion for the challenge of it.
Corina:And then the same thing in terms of addressing the impacts of my own traumas, bringing that into the work with my clients has me so much more patient and so much more compassionate as I become more patient and compassionate with myself.
Angelica:That's right. Oh, my gosh. Yes. And also not to mention, like, sometimes I think taking care of this, what is happening inside, is also what ensures that we're not projecting some of that onto the therapeutic space. And I think it's just so key for the empathy, as you said, the compassion, the broadening of experience.
Angelica:It's just I find it so helpful in my dynamics with my clients. And as you said, I think becoming a parent, had no idea. And I can now really feel into something when someone tells me, Oh, my gosh, my kid is having a tantrum, and, like, I don't know what to do in those moments, and I just get so frustrated. And I've been there. I've been there as a parent where you just kind of lose your cool and you're like, Oh, it really helps to be able to relate in that kind of way, personal way.
Mariana:I'm hearing this part that you both are sharing about the ways in which being a parent has helped you support your clients and understand them better. I'm also curious in what ways being a parent and being a therapist has served as one of those experiences to heal attachment and then to almost re parent yourself as you both are talking about the journey of becoming a parent when you were already a therapist and doing your own work in healing.
Angelica:Oh, gosh. I think that it's been such a process to face my own stuff in my kids. I thought I had done the work. I thought I was like, oh, I'm healed. You know, I'm in a safe relationship and it's great and I'm going to be sailing into the the water, and it'll be totally fine.
Angelica:But actually, kids really, for me personally, have allowed me to access parts of myself that I didn't know were there, and at certain ages, I've noticed that maybe my own triggers around those ages also have risen up. And it's really just been such a beautiful opportunity to get in there and do some deep diving into some of my own relational stuff and take care of it so that I can really ensure I'm hopefully stopping some of that intergenerational trauma. So, it's been very motivating for me personally in my parenting to really look inward. When I feel an intensity with my kids, it's been a practice for me to like, Okay, this is mine. This is mine.
Angelica:I need to own it. And working through it. And so that's been a process for me that has unearthed a lot and has developed certain skills and muscles that have been really important. Especially with the work that I do, I can see just how key it is to be that sense of security and safety for my kids, and I'm wanting to provide that as much as possible because this is the stuff that I'm now helping people work through. And so if I can, like, I'm not going be perfect because no parent is, but I think with some of my knowledge, it allows me to show up with a little bit more patience and try to, you know, work through some of my triggers.
Corina:I can add there. I really relate. There are ways that being a therapist and being a parent, growth in either place contributes to growth in the other place. And still, it's so complicated because sometimes I'll think that I'm really doing it when it comes to parenthood. So for example, I think for a long time in parenthood, and actually as the person running this organization too, for sure, there is a version of kind of performance of regulation is what I'll call it that I had become pretty skillful at.
Corina:And that was maybe an improvement over earlier things. That was definitely an output of trauma, though, for me being the one who was grounded, the one who could sort of carry things forward that I thought was a winning solution for parenting. And this took me some years to like, figure out my oldest would really challenge me about the ways that I spoke and told me that it sounded like I was a therapist. I'll admit I was actually kind of annoyed or dismissive at the time because of the work I do. I thought this is as good as it gets.
Corina:Or, you know, basically, you can only imagine. But thankfully, to some very good friends and two years of interactions, eventually, I was able to understand that formality was a protection from being scared or unsure. And it definitely also showed up with me in work. Since you worked here, Angelica, we've been on this kind of parallel journey that has really required me and has pushed me to lean more into authenticity and vulnerability and being in integrity with whatever is happening in me, which will last for the rest of my life. But my kiddo challenging me in this way, one of my very good friends who was like, Yeah, you do talk weird.
Corina:You do sound like a therapist. And years later, when I was able to be like, Yeah, you were totally right. And I've been challenging myself to pick simpler words when I notice formality to just like pick simpler. And that I've noticed that that has led to less defensiveness from my oldest. My friend was like, I never understood why you were so defended against this possibility.
Corina:And I told her that in retrospect, I realized it was because I was so exhausted in parenthood and in all of the responsibility that it felt too scary to admit that I had no idea how to develop a second language in addition to this clinical professional language. So that's a long story short, but that they both helped me learn and grow both roles.
Angelica:These things that we don't even see about ourselves are just the mirroring that our children provide and the intuition that they have. They can intuit things, I think, within us, something that needs to be excavated. And I really appreciate what you're saying about the protective force that that was. It was trying to mask maybe deeper uncomfortable feelings that you weren't ready to face, and that was being it, being the parent.
Mariana:Yeah, it's a challenge, definitely. Even as a non parent and just like navigating relationships post becoming a therapist, I can see how sometimes my clinical side can come into the ways that I handle conversations and actually lead them into a path that is not as productive as if I were more grounded just in my humanness and myself. And it's that weird duality of what you all are sharing of like, we luckily have spent so much time reading and figuring out how we can support others and regulating whether it be kids or adults that we think that we can show up in conversations that way and it'll be beneficial and in many ways it is. But then at other points I think people in my life remind me, Hey, like, take a step back from that therapist stuff and, like, just be with me. Just be present.
Mariana:And it's interesting the ways that it shows up as both beneficial and at times can be limiting.
Angelica:That's right. Yeah. Sometimes I think that that realness is so appreciated, I think, when people feel it. And there's a safety. And I think, as a therapist, we think we need to provide the safety by being, like, buttoned up and be the safe space by having all the answers and all the language and all the way of speaking.
Angelica:But actually, I think sometimes just showing the raw realness is actually what allows for safety. Because I know that sometimes, I think this has been actually a comment someone has made maybe early on in my career that being so buttoned up actually made it seem like I was one up to them and made them feel like I was making them feel inferior or less than and not getting to that level of, like, We're doing this together. Yes, I'm here as the one that have the title and I have the office, but ultimately, it's a collaborative process. And I always believe that you know more about yourself than I do. I will never presume to know more, and I think that was really important for me, a really important lesson of just, like, let myself show.
Angelica:And it's okay to not be perfect, and it's okay to not have all the answers, And it's okay to even tell them, I don't know what to do with this right now, but I'm here committed to working together to figure out what path to take. That's been a journey.
Corina:Yeah, I totally agree. I look back and find that my mistakes as a parent, as a clinician, and being honest about them and open about them and self loving, but also curious about the impact have been some of the more transformative moments, certainly as a therapist, maybe less transformative as a parent, but certainly vulnerable connecting, I would say.
Angelica:Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Corina:I think that maybe some of the folks most responsive to the podcast have been new therapists. Would you be willing to talk through the different places you've done clinical work along the way and even times that you may have done things other than clinical work? I'm thinking of some parts of your journey, if you don't mind.
Angelica:So, I've been in the field, so to speak. So, I've been in people's houses doing the work there with families, and I've been in the office. I've been doing remote work. I've also I did some volunteer work in Greece around 2016 through 2017. I was working with people in a camp seeking asylum, and they were seeking asylum from war.
Angelica:There were a lot of people from Syria, Iran, Africa, so for various reasons, but mostly to escape war. And so I was working there, and what inspired that work is kind of the same thing I started with my specialty around relational injuries and trauma. And I was realizing that there was just what felt like an absence of care about this crisis that was happening. And there weren't, I felt, there was not much evidence of people helping. And so I wanted to, knowing that systems and society can also cause relational trauma and injury by a lack of responsiveness or neglect, I wanted to help with that part, the relational human part of showing people that there was care, that people wanted to help, that people wanted to show up and try to make their lives as comfortable as possible because it was a terrible thing that they had experienced.
Angelica:And so the neglect of the greater society is something that I wanted to have a part in creating a corrective experience around. You know, I wasn't able to work through some of the larger traumas that they had experienced because it wasn't possible. Also, language barriers and the uncertainty of what their future was going to look like was not something I could actively work through or with. But I could show up and I could show care and I could build houses for temporary housing for them. And I could work with the children in playing chess with them and take them on excursions.
Angelica:And I could just be there when people were crying and upset about losing their home and losing all of their belongings. And I could just care for them. And to me, that was the work that was really important. And I think that also just is part of maybe what has inspired my specialty is also, I think as we talked about attachment traumas, but I think there's also societal, environmental traumas that happen, relational traumas that can happen. From being part of an oppressed group and whether that's race or a disability or sexual orientation.
Angelica:And I think the message being sent around worth in things like lack of inclusivity or racism or discrimination, that can really cause that emotional relational injury to people, the system being the abuser causing harm by neglecting to show up, neglecting to advocate, neglecting to care. So that's kind of what led me into my line of work. Then this was a part of that that I pursued as a result.
Mariana:So that was previous to you pursuing your Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy?
Angelica:That was after. I think I graduated in 2013, and so that was probably five years after.
Mariana:I am curious how you came to even come across that opportunity, because it sounds like a lot of, at least, the people that I've interacted recently graduating, it's a lot of like talking to alumni and eventually like finding what is close to them. And this sounds like a really unique opportunity, unlike what I have heard. So I wonder, how did you find out and come to discover this opportunity in Greece? I actually can't
Angelica:tell you. It feels like one of those events that was just meant to be that was kind of I think I did a little bit of research and I ended up finding an organization that was a Dutch organization, hence me being in The Netherlands now. And I researched it, they were looking for people that had a psychology background, and they were looking for just volunteers to help. Originally, it was with helping the kids with activities and also some help with the adults. I didn't deal with the people coming off the boat.
Angelica:At that time, there were a lot of people crossing over with the boat, but it was mostly trying to establish a little bit normalcy in the campsites because they were pretty atrocious, some of the camp situations. So, they just wanted support around that, understanding the psychological toll that people might be going through. So, that's a long winded way of I think I just Googled a lot and somehow I ended up there and reached out. And it was, yeah, just the the right time.
Corina:I think this is really lovely, painful, beautiful timing for you to be sharing about this because I know a lot of clinicians coming out of school right now. A lot of clinicians, period. But clinicians coming out of school right now confronting the kind of dehumanization that you're describing here in The US as well are asking the question of like, how do I use my strengths in a way that honors my commitment to disrupting systems in the places where I have influence or can have control. And so I'm just glad that you're sharing and reminding people just to zoom out sometimes and say, What else can I do?
Angelica:Right. I think people get overwhelmed with the What can I do? And then don't do anything, get paralyzed in the face of the tragedies and how big they are. Care is just showing care. If it's one person, 20 people, that really helps offset I mean, not totally because it's pretty tragic what is going on.
Angelica:But showing you care, showing you want to help, showing that you are there trying to advocate, I think, does go a long way more than we realize to help offset some of the trauma that comes from feeling let down and neglected and abused by society and just the helpers, seeing the helpers out there is a way to orient towards like, Okay, there are people that we can reach for and towards. And I think that's so important. So, I don't think it has to be something that you don't have to go overseas. You don't have to like not what I did, but I think just showing up and showing your care and showing your action as well.
Mariana:Live Oak Chicago is a primarily queer, trauma informed therapy practice located on the North Side Of Chicago, offering both in person and virtual therapy, consultation and workshops. We are committed to the practice of becoming a model of a community of diversely identified humans working together to transform the emotional, psychological and spiritual well-being of individuals, families, and communities, beginning with ourselves. To access therapy, training, consultation, please visit www.liveoakchicago.com.
Mariana:I'm just thinking about the idea that you were mentioning before around like building safety when working with complex trauma and how it sounds like part of that process was deconstructing professionalism and showing up in different ways. And I'm curious what you've noticed in your work with complex trauma has been most beneficial to building safety over time with clients who may not trust you and don't want to trust you because of their attachment ruptures.
Angelica:It's a process, though, and that requires consistency and just a lot of care and showing up. And there's a lot of challenging that can happen sometimes or pushing away or a lot of grasping and anxiety in those kinds of situations naturally. And I think my job is to be steady and love people through their pain and even make space for some of those protective mechanisms and honor those protective mechanisms, appreciate how they've kept them safe because they're pretty genius. They, at some point, were the ways that they survived and with limited mental faculties or resources around them. And those were kind necessary.
Angelica:So I don't get scared by big emotion. I've had to work on that. I've had to regulate myself and do my own work. But I think that not being afraid of big emotions and making people feel like everything that they bring in or a lot of the things that they bring in I can hold space for. And helping them reframe the shame that they might feel towards some of those behaviors with curiosity and awe and appreciation.
Angelica:I think that is really the starting point to do a lot of really important work is to lessen the grip of shame, is to really honor where these things come from. And so, I really want to help support people in that. And I think that also allows them to trust me more, that they're not seen as broken or terrible or in a kind of all or nothing binary way. And I think sometimes I just have to be patient and I can't force the trust and I just have to keep showing up. And that's where some of my own maybe control mechanisms of, like, It's not working or I need to do more or I need to do less or I need to do this.
Angelica:I really have to work on that and allow, while also, like, checking myself and revising when necessary and asking for feedback about how the work is going. And I think in that dialogue, in that conversation, trust is built. So when we are able to go meta about the process together to see what they would do differently and what they need. I think it's a journey, it's a process, but a lot of checking in.
Mariana:I'm really holding onto that piece about continue showing up and the ways in which I think that is true both for parents and for therapists, and how maybe you both are showing that in those ways, that ultimately what people most need is just for somebody to show up consistently for them.
Corina:Are most of the folks you work with now in The US?
Angelica:A lot of them are. I also have some clients in in Europe as well.
Corina:The thing I'm wondering about, I guess, isn't exclusively attuned to the folks who are in The US, but I'm curious being outside of The US as the things here have continued to evolve. How has it been as you were talking before about interacting with the influences of culture and socialization? How has it been to have a little bit of distance, I'm imagining, and then to be supporting people who are maybe in the weeds more here in The US. I'm just super curious.
Angelica:Well, is the Atlantic there that I can protect me, it feels like, but also emotionally doesn't feel so much separation because it's just there's a lot of horrible things that are happening. And I do feel a bit of survivor's guilt in some way about being outside of The U. S, at least right now. And it is a topic that comes up quite a lot in all of my work in The U. S.
Angelica:And in Europe as well, actually. You know, I can't say that I'm fully immune from it, even here in my sessions. With Europe, I think there's a lot of disbelief and just a lot of stress and a lot of anxiety about what it means for the future. I mean, in Europe, there's a lot of things going on with various governments that are also kind of going down the line of fascism and danger, and so The Netherlands had a bout of that. The Poland.
Angelica:It's happening in The US and it feels like it's giving permission to some other forces of the world for those things to come through. So, yes, I think it's something that collectively we're all feeling. So even if I am a little bit distant, sometimes that can be a relief. I think that emotionally it's still very much present.
Corina:Yeah. I'm curious if it feels like it gives you perspective in a different way that might be challenging or different from here. And I am interested in that, but I hear you saying there's not really a being out of it because it's part of a global move towards fascism that like nobody is safe from, essentially.
Angelica:It's given people even more licensing to show up, I think, this way. I don't know if it has given me perspective. I'm in it, too. And I think that's what I offer my clients is I'm with you, even though I'm over here. I'm there.
Angelica:I'm feeling it as well and feel the effects of it in my own body.
Mariana:Aside from what you're sharing around your work with complex trauma, I'm also hearing something that I think will be interesting for our listeners, which is that you've been traveling and doing this work and continuing to be a therapist in different spaces. What do you think made that possible, and how have you navigated hopping around different cities, different countries, and continuing to do this work?
Angelica:Well, in The US, obviously, you have to get licensed in each state that you want to practice in. So, I think I've had to get really good at taking the exam. So, there's that. Yeah, I've had to take the exam, like, three times now. And they're different exams.
Angelica:And the process is so different. But I think that working in Europe is more of the pronounced difference. It has been a process of figuring out bureaucracy and different, like, procedures and different lay of land is so different here. And I had to get my degree validated. I had to get everything translated, transcribed.
Angelica:So that was a long process. It took probably a year or so to make that all happen. I had to have a lot of patience and a lot of diligence. And the thing about what I can speak to for The Netherlands, it is not the same in that you need to be licensed. So that's kind of a little scary in some ways for some people.
Angelica:But there is a process. There is where, you know, everything had to get validated and recognized by my education, my experience. And I've really had to learn something that is not very comfortable for me is networking and really connect in with people and figure it out because there was no one explaining it to me in The Netherlands. Like, I had to go and build off of other people's knowledge. And there are a lot of expats that have had this process of translating their US degree and license into The Netherlands practice.
Angelica:So I had to just really connect with them and extract as much information I could from them and build a community. And it's been really beautiful to build a community with other expat therapists in The Netherlands and build something together. And we all kind of rely on one another to figure out taxes and different, like, procedures, insurance, things like that, because it's in a different language for the most part. But, yeah, the community aspect of starting something in an unknown place and the reliance on other people has been really important for me. As someone who's wanted to do things just on my own and, like, I can figure it out, I have not been able to do that here.
Angelica:So I guess my experience has taught me community support, reaching out, and not being afraid just because it feels overwhelming in the beginning. Like, any time something is new, it can feel really overwhelming and you're like, How am I going to get all the pieces together? But there is a way and keep going and eventually you find a path.
Mariana:I also think we're very fortunate that our field, especially now that something like this is possible where we're speaking virtually, probably makes it well suited for movement. That ultimately our office, apart from like regulations and those things that are important to their practice, the work we do can travel with us. As long as we've got our laptops and a good setup, that's an advantage. Wifi.
Angelica:And wifi. Exactly. I think there are a few traveling therapists that I've met over the years, which is pretty cool. But also there's some things like I think you have to depending on where you are, that's where you just have to be cautious about some of the rules, regulations around things like taxes and things like that. So I'm not suggesting that people just go out and start traveling.
Angelica:We have to read up on a lot of the rules and regulations, of course.
Corina:Would you mind telling us about the practice that you work at and the work that the practice does?
Angelica:Yeah. So, the group practice is relationship based in New York, and so I work with a lot of relationships, and that is the work that I do there. I've been there since 2017. So, right after I was in Greece, I went to New York. And it's a different environment.
Angelica:Just, it's so fast paced, and there's a lot of stress, high stress people that are working there. And also, just New York is one of the most just the discrepancies or the dualities, different drastic extremes there are from people that have incredible amounts of wealth to very little wealth. And through all of that and one week or one day seeing someone that is on one end of the spectrum and the next day, it's just, it's a lot of code switching that can happen.
Corina:Yeah. I'm finding myself wondering if you find it to be a real advantage to have lived across so many different contexts. So that, for example, when you're interacting with the Chicago or New York context, you have this capacity to say like, it doesn't have to be this way and it isn't this way. Depending upon where you are within that, especially socioeconomic context, you may or may not have as many choices. But has that felt like an asset or a resource of yours?
Angelica:I think even when I was in Greece, what's so interesting is that I'd be talking to women because I would do these excursions with them. And even though there was a lot of trauma, obviously, but the conversations also ended up being about relationships and people that they were interested in or their husbands or different parts of systems. And it's just really interesting to be able to see that that is really universal. Relational problems, relational issues, and desire for relationship is universal, even with people going through unimaginable tragedy. But that is really an anchor for us all, relationships.
Angelica:And so the importance of relationship, that's the zoo line. And to be able to see different iterations of relationship in Europe, I see multicultural couples that, especially in Europe, that have different backgrounds, different cultures, and socioeconomic experiences, and to be able to see the difficulties that that does bring up, but also how much love is present in making these really difficult circumstances work. And it's really solidified the importance of relationships.
Corina:Mariana, what's landing most for you today?
Mariana:I think I'm excited about the possibilities of a life and movement when it comes to the work that we do and seeing the ways that you have really intentionally carved a path to be able to do that. I think I'm somebody that has also had a life and movement, so at times it feels both exciting to be stable and have a place here while also thinking about the future and what that means. So I guess I'm seeing a lot of value in seeing that you've been able to make it work. Then the other piece I'm thinking about is that aspect of how like our shared humanity and our shared experiences with attachment, even if they come in slightly different forms, is something that I guess unfortunately a lot of us share. Relationships are such a fundamental part of being human that they can be both the thing that helps us and affects us the most positively and negatively.
Mariana:And it seems to be that some of what you're sharing is that that is the connecting piece in the work you've done, and also the ways that you show up as a therapist and just building a relationship is what supports your clients and feeling over time safe in doing the work with you, which I think is an important message around pacing and being therapists and trusting that showing up and being present and trying to connect with our clients over our shared humanity can be one of the most important factors for building that space to heal.
Corina:And, Jugka, I'm so grateful for this chance. I feel like I got to be an observer on the early side of your career and not so much on the time since then. And I feel so lucky to have gotten to hear about where you've gone.
Angelica:Oh, thank you. Well, you have been an instrumental part in my journey. You were really there in the beginning where I think that that was such a vulnerable time just coming out of being kind of insulated a little bit in school, and even though we were seeing people then in school. And I just remember you being such a just a light, the confidence that was there. I was able to borrow some from you.
Angelica:I think a lot of your wisdom, a lot of your confidence, and you were a great mentor. And you are still. So I appreciate how instrumental you were in my path. And you're in my work even now, even if it's been some time.
Corina:Thank you. I want to say I think it's funny because you two know Live Oak at these really wildly different moments, and that I really feel strongly that where Live Oak is now lives on the shoulders of the experiences of folks like you who were there during some really hard essential times, but really hard times where we and I was learning some lessons and making lots of mistakes. And so I feel grateful that you're so generous to me. And I also feel grateful for the ways that you've influenced me personally. So I feel a lot of gratitude.
Angelica:How long has this been going on for in this podcast?
Corina:November? Time. I don't that sounds right.
Mariana:I feel like we did our first recording around November. It was kind of one of those things where we decided to do it. And then two weeks later, we just did it. Just jumped right in.
Corina:Love this shared impulsiveness that we both It's great.
Angelica:But that's what I remember about you, Corina. You just like make things happen, like things materialize in like such a short amount of time. That does not surprise me.
Corina:It can be absurd, but thankfully it's a good fit with the two of us.
Mariana:Thank you so much. Thank you for everything you shared, and it was great to meet you. I hope to bump into you in the future. Next time on Lessons From The Couch.
Chris Aguirre:Self or unconditional love is kind of like the sun. So when the skies are clear, you have full access to So you feel the warmth of it, you give the warmth of it, plants flourish, the sky looks blue. And our parts, they could be like clouds whenever we get blended or whenever we get hijacked by them or in Halloween when we get possessed by them, they just kind of block the sun. And it's not that the sun doesn't exist, it's just that we're losing access to it.