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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Jesse French
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Restorative Man podcast. My name is Jesse French, one of your hosts today, and I'm joined by Chris Bruno. Hello, Chris. Thanks for joining us here today. Yes. Well, as we often do in these conversations, we, you know, just use our lives as some fodder for discussion, conversation.
Chris Bruno
Hey Jesse, good to be here.
Well, especially when it's and I love it when we do this with your life. ⁓ yeah. Because there's so much fodder for conversation in your life.
Jesse French
Really? Tell me why. Yeah!
I want to insert snarky comment here, but you're to your right so
Chris Bruno
Am I wrong? I am not wrong.
Jesse French
Well, and what I'm going to say is only going to support your hypothesis. So. To being. Yeah. No. So very recently. So here's the backstory. Very recently, my wife and I, we needed to drive down to Oklahoma, darn near to Arkansas. I don't know if you realize this people. I didn't realize that, you know, Oklahoma and Arkansas share a border.
Chris Bruno
Yeah.
Jesse French
And so my geography is fairly delinquent. And so you can, you can drive a long ways through the state of Oklahoma and still be in Oklahoma. that was made evident by the fact that we, and when I say we, I should say I, me, I thought it was a good idea. needed to drive down to Oklahoma and then drive back to Colorado. And in my rationale and thinking, thought, Hey, let's be efficient about this. As we look at the fall and busyness and for our family.
Chris Bruno
Oklahoma. So.
Jesse French
Let's be efficient and make this trip in two days. So drive down on a Saturday. It's like 13 hours drive down, spend the night in Oklahoma, do what we need to do. And then drive back from Oklahoma to Colorado on Sunday. And let's do this. And also what could go wrong? What could go wrong? And not just me and my wife, but let's bring our three kids who are 13, 11 and nine along for the ride.
Chris Bruno
What could go wrong?
Jesse French
because road trips are fun and seeing new parts of the country are fun. And this is a good idea. So this is what happened. We executed said plan last weekend and let me say clearly, like our kids did really, really well for 24 out of the 26 hours of the driving. And as you're probably thinking like two hours before we were home,
the metaphorical wheels began to fall off and understandably, right? Like they get so tired of being in the same space. We were also driving a pickup, so we did not have a third row of seats. So we had three in the front, two in the back. so the amount of like, what could go wrong? So I'll let you fill in the blanks of what you think what was happening in terms of like kids not sleeping well, kids being annoyed with their siblings, parents being
not real, real high in the, like, patients department, you know, pulling out the whole like, OK, no more talking for the next like 25 minutes because it's, you know, everything is going poorly. So like that happened and we get home, it's 10 o'clock at night. Everyone just like stumbles into bed. And I had the conversation with my wife. She's like, you know, wisely, she said, you know, I just don't think we set our family up real well for success by choosing to do this in two days. She said, why?
We could have stayed a third day or split up the driving, right? All of which were viable options. And I didn't decide to do that. And so I just thought this idea of like how we set up those around us for success or how we don't could be a viable conversation could have been viable for me to think about eight days ago. Not right now.
Chris Bruno
Yes. Okay. Jesse, like I said, back to point A, your life is full of opportunities for conversation. Yes. Okay.
Jesse French
And here's the thing, as I'm recounting that and just trying to lay out kind of methodically the facts of the situation and the strategy that was laid out, I am sitting here just kind of like a little, not a little, just like cringy of how did you think this was going to go? All of the signs point to there will be challenge and weeping and gnashing of teeth. we chose to do that.
Chris Bruno
well, Jesse, I probably should not be the one having this conversation with you because I am not a fan of road trips.
Jesse French
You are not. Yeah, this is true.
Chris Bruno
So, you know, a couple of podcasts ago, you and I were stuck in the car for five hours and that is the top end of my driving road trip in capacity. And, know, we were having a good time. were friends hanging out. We didn't have whiny children. Well, you were kind of whiny, but otherwise.
Jesse French
my gosh.
Chris Bruno
Yeah, it was anyway. I.
Jesse French
You don't have any sympathy for me is what you're trying to say.
Chris Bruno
There is a level of audacity that you have in this conversation and in this category that I do not have. That's right. I love that about you and want nothing of it. You're welcome. Yeah, dude, 26 hours in two days. And here's the thing that I want to talk about setting our
kids up well and families up well and all that kind of stuff. But 26 hours in two days without an actual destination, right? It's not like you were driving to Disneyland and, you know, and had something. was, were driving to, you're driving to Oklahoma, God bless Oklahoma. There is a place for Oklahoma and all that and all that. So it's not about that, but.
even if you were going to visit grandma's house in Oklahoma or something that you were going to versus we just did 13 hours, we're gonna sleep and we're gonna turn around and come back. Yeah.
Jesse French
Which again, this is helpful information that I like even that place of, wow, there's no destination really. There's no, we've arrived. can catch our breath for a small amount of time. was just there go and turn around. Like even that didn't really penetrate my head and into the thinking of this could be a different heart experience.
Chris Bruno
Okay. So all of that to say there was another value that was driving your decision making. And that was the value of efficiency. That was a value of, you know, recognizing the time limited nature. And I want to honor you. Like you could have just driven down by yourself and come back, but there was something about you that wanted to involve your kids and evolve your family and do something alongside of them that
you you took them with you and maybe that was the value of wanting to include them. Maybe that was the value of, don't have anywhere for the kids to go. So I don't know all of what was happening for you and you did something with your kids that they will never forget.
Jesse French
Thank you. Yes. That's the way that is true. That is a true statement that you just. We all will remember it. Yay for unforgettable memories.
Chris Bruno
Okay. unforgettable memories. Yes. So all that to say, like how, when you are saying you didn't set them up for success, what do you mean?
Jesse French
Yeah, I think what some of the realization was that feels obvious now, but was novel to me at the time was, man, I didn't have the awareness. Like you just said it, the chief value was efficiency and fitting this in an opportune time within the calendar. That was the driving factor. I didn't have the awareness of, okay.
If these are the folks that I want there and that we want to be able to invite into this, what will this scenario ask of them? What will it require of them? And what are they capable of? How are they capable of responding? And right, because for me or adults, right, there's a level of like, well, we can suck it up and, you know, drink some more coffee. You slept terribly in a hotel, like drink some coffee. I'll drink or I'll eat.
some more sugar and just kind of power through. Power through, right? Obviously for kids, that's way, way different. But again, that idea of like, what will this require for the other people there? And is that fair to ask them to respond to that? That thinking and that sort of awareness and processing was, did not enter the equation until after the trip had happened. The- Well, none of that has-
Chris Bruno
Yeah. Which was the equation. So there was efficiency, ultimate efficiency would have been to go alone. So what brought you to the place of bringing everybody with you?
Jesse French
Yeah, I think there, for sure there was a desire to have some family adventure, right? To have some like embark on something new. We were going, part of the other big piece of it was like the purpose of the trip was to go pick up a new horse for our family, which was super exciting. And so that side of it, our kids were excited about and felt like a sweet, yes, come on, be part of this. So that was also part of the mix. And again, from a timing standpoint,
The calendar in my mind was like, this is the time to do it these two days. because, yeah, because of the need to be able to have that fit within the other, other elements of what was going on in life.
Chris Bruno
Right. Okay. So there was a desire inside of you for some family adventure. For sure. Yeah. Okay. Was there adventure?
Jesse French
Yeah, there were some parts of it. There was...
Chris Bruno
What? That's not a challenge. I'm not saying that like a challenge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bring us in. Like what felt adventurous to you?
Jesse French
One of the, so this is getting into more of the details of the trip. One of the places that we stopped was this small town in Oklahoma called Pawhuska, which is the home of a woman named Ree Drummond, who she's known as Pioneer Woman. And so she has this like really successful blog. She cooks, she lives on this big ranch and like, right, we have all three of their cookbooks. We think Ree Drummond is the best. Her food is fantastic. We love her. And so.
A few years ago, she lives outside of Pasca. They open their own mercantile and a restaurant and my wife loves her. love her. so we're like, well, I pasca is on the way. so we're going to go, let's go. So we stopped there. I went to the store, had dinner at her place. That part was really fun. Like the adventure, this discovery of this unique, small, small little town in Oklahoma that has this kind of like very interesting, well done.
kind of resurgence. And so that like, part was super fun. That felt like an adventure, grabbing the horse, getting him loaded, like meeting him. Like that was such a sweet piece to be able to share with them and like, he is. So fun. So yeah. So those parts were, it felt like adventurous.
Chris Bruno
Okay. Well, then my curiosity goes to Jesse, you said 24 hours into the 26, everyone did relatively well and the wheels came off at hour 24. What happened at 24?
Jesse French
How much detail do you want here in this?
Chris Bruno
Well, everyone is all ears.
Jesse French
So at this point, we were two hours from home. Two of my kids were in the back seat and back seat of a pickup, right? And so there's not a ton of room. so the, we'll just say the, the debate over which half, how much space your sibling is occupying and who has trespassed into the other person's space. That debate was in full, full force and they, yeah. So that was happening and.
my intervention into that space was, you know, maybe not the most.
Chris Bruno
Marginal maybe marginal.
Jesse French
Yeah. Yeah. There was some, there's some direct words spoken and yeah, there's that's what I would say. Understandably. They were like, I have reached the limit of like my ability to share this space with my siblings, my, you know, neat, just even endurance of driving in a car for 13 hours to the second straight day. Right. Like the end had been reached.
Chris Bruno
I'm sure we're all many of us are familiar with that end
Jesse French
Sure. Why do you ask? Where is your head going? Well.
Chris Bruno
I just, there's something about, I want to honor the decisions that you made in like wanting to involve them in some adventure, wanting to go to a place that you and your wife love and you know, that whole thing with the pioneer woman, wanting to involve them in the retrieving of the horse and this animal that's now going to be part of your family. They are part of the origin story of the horse. And so I'm wondering,
You're saying the wheels came off and it may have been the case and also the memory of what this is for them, the participation in this, now just the fact that it has a cost doesn't mean that it was too costly. Right? That there's something about they were part of that and they came to the end of themselves and they lost themselves and whatever. And it might not mean that this is a bad experience.
Well, I think a lot of times we jump to the conclusion that because containment has been lost, that all is lost.
Jesse French
Yeah, that's totally the conclusion. Like I came to was this undesirable outcome, right? Of like the wheels falling off indicates the whole, like that had the headline of the trip.
Chris Bruno
Yeah. And, and, and to be fair also 26 hours in two days is a lot to ask of children. It's a lot to ask of. It's a lot to ask of Chris Bruno. So if that had been the story, I would have said, if you had invited me to come along, however much I love you, I would have said no. So there's that. And.
I think when something begins to unravel, we often go to all good or all bad. When in reality, like it still is a good story. Those kids are still part of the story of retrieving the horse and being together and doing those things and all of that. And could it have been better? Sure. Could it have been planned better? Sure. And at the end of the day, it doesn't mean it was all bad.
Jesse French
That's helpful. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts around, cause that's helpful to say, look, it can be very easy to be really binary of like the trip was all good or all bad to sit in more of the middle ground. Yeah. What is some of that reflection look like? How do we kind of invite that engagement of that space and not just move to either one of those poles?
Chris Bruno
Yeah, I mean, I think the conversation that we're having is what was gained and what was lost. And to not even have it be like a tip the scales kind of thing, just allow for there to be, there are some significant gains and there might be some significant losses. But as I hear you recount the story, I'm like, at the end of the day, a meltdown at tower 24, holy cow, they did really well.
Jesse French
They did. They really did. For sure.
Chris Bruno
So they did really well and is it a dumpster fire? Did the wheels come off? The other part, Jesse, is like, you started this by saying, you know, did you set them up well? I think one of the things that we can do as dads in raising our kids in situations like this is, is there a declaration or an invitation?
Jesse French
Say more.
Chris Bruno
So the declaration is, hey kids, this weekend we're driving 13 hours and going to Oklahoma to get the horse and we're driving home. So that is what is happening versus this invitation to say, hey kids, this weekend I need to go to Oklahoma and get the horse. I would love for you guys to come with me to have some adventure and we're gonna go see this and we're gonna do this. We're gonna get the horse, we're gonna come back. And what is gonna be required?
is that there's 13 hours there and 13 hours back, just so you know, kind of what you're signing up for. And your kids are all at an age where they have, they have some ability to make some reflections and have an understanding of what that is. When your kids are two, they don't know what you're talking about. But that invitation actually welcomes their participation in
the journey in a way that a declaration does not.
Jesse French
Yeah. And I, I like that for lot of reasons because it is open-handed, right? There is no force applied in that. And this part of what you discussed did not happen with my kids, but also the clear naming of like, think this is what will be required. Like we're not going to pull any fast ones. We're going to, we're going to, I'm going to give you the, all of the knowledge that I am aware of to let you make your decision and to honestly.
Honestly, name that and let you choose accordingly. Like, I think even that, that framework, that way of engagement, that feels like a movement towards setting them up for success, right? Versus. Yeah. Yeah. Just that, posture.
Chris Bruno
Well, in your words, setting them up for success is, I mean, what is success? Them not melting down? Them not struggling with that? I I don't know what success might be. I think what I'm inviting us to, and even the reflections now, is creating as much clarity as possible for what they can expect so that when it does feel like they've come to the end of their rope, like we're all aware this is really hard.
Jesse French
Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Bruno
So even then that feels successful.
Jesse French
Like the degree to which this feels out of left field or like a total audible. Like, that's decreased. we talked about this going for four days ago that this would probably be true. And here we are.
Chris Bruno
And here we are, which is what I'm trying to say is that is the success. The success is them having said yes to something hard and feeling how hard it is and knowing for themselves what their capacity is and coming out of the trip with a sense of like, ⁓ I mean, they're not actively thinking this as a child, but remember the 13 hours? Yeah, I don't want to do that again because I know what my capacity is. Yeah.
So that's the success in growing them in the process even if they lost themselves at hour 24.
Jesse French
Right. To view it through a paradigm of, this is an opportunity for them to have a greater sense of what their capacity is, to have a greater sense of some of their agencies, right? Of like, I am willing to say yes to this or no, that's not something I'm willing to do. Like to have some greater practice in engaging their bandwidth and agency. That's a win.
Chris Bruno
Yep. That is a win. And you know, a meltdown is nobody wants a meltdown. feels, it doesn't even feel good to have a meltdown when you're at, you know, 24 hours in and all that kind of stuff. So the thing I think is that how do we set our kids up for success is like, first of all, what is the success that we want to set them up for? And then in that, think clarity is the kindest thing that we can offer.
How much can we explain to them, tell them in a way that they will understand? And you know, when my kids were young, it was like, how many more sleeps do we have before Christmas? That was how they could conceive. Not how many days, but how many more sleeps. So whatever language you need to use that's helpful for your kids to understand, that gives them like the encyclopedia of experience to come back to, to have reference points back to. So that when you say, let's go to,
Let's drive to California and it's another, it's another big old, big old drive. They're going to know. And that's the beauty. Now they know what 13 hours feels like. Yeah.
Jesse French
Yeah. I want to go back to one other thing you said, and that was even removing the plus minus paradigm of like, what's the net benefit analysis. And just even to ask the questions, what was gained and what was lost. Chris, those feel like two very simple, but really, really wise questions for us.
Chris Bruno
No, it's just, yeah.
Jesse French
as individuals to be able to have a sense of and to reflect back and to be able to give language to both of those things.
Chris Bruno
Yeah, for us and also the dinner time conversation now. What did we gain over the course of this weekend? Yeah, it was rough. a long time. Right. But what did get and what did we lose? What was hard? And just to have those reflective conversations provides more kind of digestion of the experience, if you will, for the child to know and for you to know. It wasn't a total loss.
Because here's the thing is that they'll likely surprise you with some of the gains that are not even in your mind. Some of the successes that they have that are not even in your mind. And bless you with those.
Jesse French
That's good. Okay.
Chris Bruno
So moral of the story.
Jesse French
Yeah, what is the moral here?
Chris Bruno
Everyone in the world should adopt a Chris Bruno mentality towards road trips and have five hours at the top end of capacity for road trips for all people.
Jesse French
Well, I feel like I'm not in a position right now based upon these last 26 minutes of conversations. Really like argue with you on this. so I'm vulnerable and I don't want to lose this and I, you have the upper hand in this argument right now.
Chris Bruno
I horrible right now, Jesse.
Yeah, well, I mean, at the end of the day, Jesse, I think the thing for us as dads is how do we actually think forward for the experiences that we're creating, providing, asking, invite, you know, whatever it is for our children and our spouse. What is it that they're going to need in order to be well in the midst of that?
Jesse French
Yep. Yes. Yes. To have that.
Chris Bruno
And maybe not answer the question for them, but invite them to answer their own question of that. So if you say yes to this, what are you going to need?
Jesse French
Yeah. And then be willing. It feels like to then process afterwards, right? To be able to say, how was that for things we need? How was that for you? And to include that.
Chris Bruno
If you were to do this again, what would you do differently? What would you do the same?
Jesse French
Yep. Yep. In my head, I think. I wonder if my kids are firmly in the Chris Bruno philosophy of road trips. Maybe you gain some, you gain some adherence.
Chris Bruno
don't know. mean, you guys, you guys drive a lot. You drive from Colorado and Minnesota and you're doing all kinds of road trips all the time. So yeah, maybe your overall capacity as a family is greater than mine. I will say this, Jesse, my philosophy is not a hard and fast one, but it comes from a lot of story. And there are hundreds of stories that I have.
Jesse French
That's true.
Chris Bruno
where I was not given the invitation, I was given the declaration, I was not set up for success, I had no place to go, I was stuck in the back of a car and had no one to engage with or interact with for hours and hours and hours. And so, like, I couldn't read because I would get car sick and any, you know, this was back when I was a kid, this was back in the day when there wasn't a personal music choice.
Right. It was like all that it was, I had to listen to whatever was listening. We were listening to you and had to, you know, just sit there. So it comes from a lot of story. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited to meet your horse. have not met this horse who just got this weekend. Yeah. May he be a wonderful addition to your family.
Jesse French
Makes sense. Yeah, makes sense.
Well. May it be so.
Chris Bruno
May it be so. So, okay. See you next time, Jesse.