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Hosted by Toby Cryns and Kurt von Ahnen, the Agency Action Podcast (Part of the WP Minute Podcast Network) dives into the real-world ups and downs of running a WordPress agency. Each week, Toby and Kurt share open, honest conversations about the challenges and victories that come with building client relationships, pricing projects, finding the right tools, and growing a sustainable business.
Whether you’re just launching your agency or refining your systems, you’ll get practical insights from two agency owners who live it every day—along with stories that remind you you’re not alone in this wild WordPress world of global teams, AI disruption, and constant change.
Follow the show and explore more at TheWPMinute.com/podcasts
Kurt von Ahnen (00:00)
Hey folks, welcome to another episode of the Agency Action Show. I'm here with my co-host, Toby Cryns I'm Kurt Von Ahnen, and ⁓ I think today we're gonna start by talking about how disgusted we are with self-promotion on LinkedIn.
Toby Cryns (00:12)
Yeah, and also like, am I are we missing the train? Because I don't do disgusting self-promotion and I generally like hate disgust I hate reading it. But at the same time, the people that disgustingly self-promote are the people I know about. And so if I'm gonna hire someone, I'm gonna hire someone I know. So the question is is ⁓ whether or not you're disgusted by self-promotion or maybe like just relentless AI slop being poured on you at LinkedIn.
Should we be doing that, even if we're disgusted by it?
Kurt von Ahnen (00:43)
There is so much good in LinkedIn, and there's so many positive things in being connected to LinkedIn, but I have to agree with you. The negative is a real deterrent. Like, so I feel like some of that and I think you and I are talking about the same thing. I think. I don't know, maybe you need to read me an example, but I think we're talking about the same thing. Like, to me, there's a difference between like, so I'll say, hey, I want to welcome our newest
Customer to Manana No Mas. Here's a link to their site, right? And that's just like a boom. Hey, we did something. Here it is. Right. But there's a difference between that and a like a three-paragraph. Look how awesome I am. I did this. I wrote this book. I'm in this podcast. I'm doing this. This customer loves me. This is what they said about this. And it's like, my goodness. Like, stop. You're patting yourself on the back so hard you're gonna break your elbow. to me, there's a difference between.
participating in the feed and like abusing people in the feed.
Toby Cryns (01:38)
Right, but the question is should you be abusing people in the feed? Why not?
Kurt von Ahnen (01:41)
No. It's the
same as it's the same as ⁓ I use the direct messaging in LinkedIn almost like text messaging. Hey, you want to break the ice? You want to jump on a quick call? You want to this? You want that? You don't want to? That's fine too. Have a great day. Like boom, boom, boom. And I constantly get these three and four paragraph emails in my in mail, like ⁓ would you like to, you know, hey, we've been, we've been studying your profile for a while and we really like the cut of your jib.
And we'd like to get you twelve to fifteen validated clients a week. Like, stop, stop, stop sending me that crap. That's like from Hustlers University. Stop sending me that crap.
Toby Cryns (02:18)
I think though, like we have like a a rich history in probably every mass media society ever of just pummeling people with just garbage. Turn on the TV, whether it's 1962 or nine 2026, you just get pummeled with garbage. And LinkedIn is no exception. You go there and it's just a different garbage pile. and so like you're you love the Foreman Grill.
Kurt von Ahnen (02:40)
Do you own a Foreman grill? That's
an example of being bubbled with garbage.
Toby Cryns (02:45)
Yeah. Yes,
exactly. you mean you mean a grill that has a slight angle?
Kurt von Ahnen (02:51)
A grill
that has a slight angle.
Toby Cryns (02:53)
but I like what I was hearing from you is like, I would never do that and I'm saying this is a rich American tradition. Like what's wrong with this? And I don't know that anything's wrong with it. I'm that's kinda the question. Maybe we should be doing it. Join the you know, the the storm
Kurt von Ahnen (03:08)
So so this is like the hardest thing. This really is hard. So it's like ⁓ I'm on five podcasts a week, right? So so somebody could come up to me and go, my god, I don't know how you do that. Like, aren't you so tired of like just putting yourself out there and pushing yourself on everybody like that? And I think, no, I'm doing value-added content. Like I I'm hearing from people, they like the show, right? so on one hand, I think I'm paying it forward. On the other hand,
People think I'm abusing the podcast networks by like overexposing myself or spamming people through podcasts, which I I know is a little bit of a stretch. But ⁓ I I guess it's all in perspective, right? It's like it's like where do you like when someone says, ⁓ that guy makes too much money. Well, what's too much money? Too much money is usually twenty to fifty thousand dollars more than you're making.
Like if someone came up to you and said, my gosh, you run that agency, you guys make way too much money. You'd be like, No, I know agencies that make more. It's it's always a graduated scale. So the perspective is based on on your your participation. And that that makes it really hard to draw the line.
Toby Cryns (04:12)
And I think like part of this, you know, AI's changing the whole paradigm of tech. And and I go like, what would happen? And this is part of like, should I be in there just pummeling people with garbage just to get my name out there? And the question is really like, what would happen if my main source of leads disappeared tomorrow and I have I have to go get leads? Like the all of a sudden this method doesn't seem so gross 'cause I'm like, I need to pay the mortgage.
Kurt von Ahnen (04:38)
This drives me back to that social experiment when when the pandemic broke out. was it how to become a millionaire, how to become a billionaire, some it was some stupid show that I was addicted to, by the way. Grant Cardone was on it and a couple of other millionaire types. They they took people and they said, You can't tell people your real name, you can't use your mailing list, you can't.
⁓ you can't leverage your existing contacts. We're gonna drop you in some small town somewhere. And your goal within 90 days is to build a n a million dollar valuated business in 90 days. And it was interesting because I saw people on that show do things I would never consider doing. Like, you know, pride cometh before the fall, right? Like they did things that I think I'm too prideful to do.
But they like really leveraged other people in ways that I thought seemed semi-abusive. But then when you look at the outcome, they created million dollar businesses and people along the way got rewarded. You know, at the end of the show, everybody, you know, either they got the business given to them or split up or whatever, right? so it is interesting. What would you do if all of your leads disappeared tomorrow? There are people out there that no matter how the chips fall.
no matter how negative it gets, no matter how the world seems stacked against them, they always seem to find a way, a motivation to find something, to to push something to generate revenue in some way.
Toby Cryns (06:03)
And I think like the the moral here is that they're the moral the moral is that the moral paradigm shifts when you're when you need the money. It like the that show kind of points that out. Like what seems like beyond the pale today might be palatable if if I need the sale, you know, and that that's there's like some
fear I have because you don't want to go too far. Like you you you can't picture yourself today I couldn't picture myself posting slop to Link in LinkedIn, but if my leads dried up, maybe I would do that. And then you go, how far? And this is more just like, you know, something for us to bring to whatever group over beers, but like it's like, how far would I be willing to go out it you know, if it became that desperate? There was a a guy an interview with a guy who
was formerly homeless and he was talking about being homeless. He's like, You'd think you would never eat tr never eat trash. You'd think never in your life would you go to a trash can, take out tr you know, some beans and eat them. And he's like, I'm telling you, from experience, you would. You would be happy to have those leftover beans at the bottom of the trash can.
Kurt von Ahnen (06:57)
Yeah.
Well, it's really freaky because there and so there's people that do that by choice in certain urban areas. Like they they they've been on TV shows and stuff. You know, I you know, we we we go out and we surf dumpsters for food and it's like, holy crud. And you think I would never do that. Again, that's like that pride cometh before the fall. What else would like so what's what's worse, right? Stealing your next meal or taking leftovers out of the trash. So morality says that stealing would be worse, right?
But then you're like, eating trash? I don't know. obviously we've gone way off the rails here with our conversation. but where like where does the line get drawn?
Toby Cryns (07:41)
I actually think
Kurt von Ahnen (07:43)
Getting business, building revenue, or really alienating other people with your spammy behavior.
Toby Cryns (07:49)
So LinkedIn today is a marketing platform. Can we agree on that? TV is a marketing platform, radio is a marketing platform, billboards are marketing platforms. I think this is historically speaking, in the United States anyway, as long as the FCC allows you to say it, it's fair game, according to you know, on TV and billboards and whatever. And I think LinkedIn's similar. Like at some point, the the the
LinkedIn staff might push back so you've gone too far. You know, like
Kurt von Ahnen (08:17)
Yeah.
Toby Cryns (08:18)
But I actually
Kurt von Ahnen (08:18)
It it is
unique. So there was a point in time in LinkedIn where if you put like an external link in your post, your post didn't get promoted. Like nobody would ever see it, right? And that's what started that whole put the link in the first comment trend, right? So have your post then put the link in the first comment. And then I think LinkedIn kind of picked up on that too. So the whole idea was LinkedIn didn't want to promote content that was going to direct people to leave the platform. I mean, they want people to stay on the platform as much as possible.
So then that started that whole like internal newsletter kind of trend that's in in LinkedIn with you make all your content as possible to stay in the platform. Go live in the platform. Like that that all and and there's it makes sense. But now here's one that confuses me. They just put out a message last week that said, no longer can you just go live in LinkedIn after the 20th, which is tomorrow.
⁓ you're gonna have to only be able to go live through scheduled lives. You're not gonna be able to, you have to schedule them in advance. You can't be like a spontaneous live anymore. Which I found very unique because in that I wonder if that's really gonna cut down on live presentations in LinkedIn or if they're trying to get rid of the slop.
Toby Cryns (09:20)
Please.
Right, well well I mean yeah. ⁓ yeah, I can see reasons for it. ⁓ let's keep going on this idea though. Like let's say you you you were at a point where your business dried up and you're like, I can't find any leads. I'm gonna have to shut down the business. What would you do if you could never build another website?
Kurt von Ahnen (09:45)
I said it flippantly, but now I have myself second second guessing why I'm not just doing this. mountain biking's become more and more popular. I would probably become a mountain bike coach. It's it's like, hey, let's get kids on bikes, let's get you on bikes, let's go enjoy, you know, let's go to the lake, let's ride a trail together, let's do and I know that that sounds crazy, but I used to live in Colorado and there were people that made like six figures hosting rich people to take them hunting.
You know, and I didn't understand it because I'm not a hunter, but like I knew people that did it. And they were like, yeah, people fly in from all over the world and we take out camping and we we bring them food and we do this, we do that, and then they pay us like, you know, twenty thousand dollars for the week. And I was like, That's crazy. And I think to myself, imagine if someone gave me two thousand dollars so I could give them a tour of the twenty-two mile trail at Lake Wilson. I'd be like, Man, I'm doing what I love.
I'm teaching someone else how to do something and I'm making money. That would be amazing.
Toby Cryns (10:39)
I think that's how I got into WordPress agency world. Like I really enjoy the work, you know. And it's not to say like after 20 years, I'm like, there are other things I enjoy now and differently, but I actually still enjoy the work. And one thing that I am finding enjoyment in my craft is embracing AI and like trying to figure out how to hammer it into WordPress because it still is not.
integrated with WordPress really at all, even though like WordPress core kind of has integrations. The integrations are like, have it create a new post for you. And I'm like, I can already create a post. I I need it to do something interesting. Like I needed to create a plugin that connects like specific to my site. I have Gravity Forms here and I have, you know, Cloudflare there. I needed to do some stuff and wire it up specific to me. And right now it can't really do that. And I'm I'm reading up on like how to
Figure that I'm figuring out that problem. Like, here's another example. If you go to any of the AI tools and say, design me a new web page for my marketing agency, it'll design something awesome that you could publish in five minutes with your with you know with our skill set. But the problem is you can't take that design and go to WordPress and say, just build me this. Like it just doesn't work that way. And there's hacks and workarounds. ⁓ but that's kind of what's
Kurt von Ahnen (11:58)
You're you're gonna make me say something
crazy.
Toby Cryns (12:01)
What what's that?
Kurt von Ahnen (12:02)
Have you seen any of Kevin Geary's videos with how he's integrated AI into Etch? It's literally like he goes to a website, screenshots it, and tells Etch, or tells AI in etch, make me this page and build the BEM classes and the this and the that and whatever, and boof, it magically happens. I am not proficient in etch yet. In fact, etch changed a lot since the last time I had used it.
Toby Cryns (12:07)
Mm mm.
Kurt von Ahnen (12:26)
And I tried to use it last week and learned very quickly that I feel like I have to start all over again.
Toby Cryns (12:31)
Well that's cool. That's promising.
Kurt von Ahnen (12:33)
But I thought the same thing when I came up on WordPress 7.0 and I went to connectors. And I said connectors. That's and it I thought that was I thought the whole thing was interesting. Like you and I are like AI, AI, like everybody's AI, AI, AI. And then when WordPress 7.0 came out, it said now you can connect to AI. And I was like, how the hell do you do that? Like, where's it at? It was like hidden in settings. You had to go to connectors and
And when you got to connectors, it said connect. And then it was like then you have to buy this extra package and Claude to connect Claude for an extra ten bucks. And so I was like, whatever, let's do it. And then you connect and you go, Well, now what? And to your point, I was like, Well, this isn't interesting at all.
Toby Cryns (13:07)
Right.
It's like, well, do you want me to create a new post for you? Do you want me to activate a plugin for you? I'm like, no, I think I'll just click the button. Thanks. Like it's easier, it's easier to it's easier to click the button than to tell you to click the button. Like
Kurt von Ahnen (13:17)
Yeah, I I ca I kinda know how that part works.
Yeah, I
kind of know how that part works. there's another person that's really killing in the AI space with WordPress, and that is ⁓ Spencer Foreman. I don't know if you've seen well, you've seen him on obviously the WP Tonic Roundtable show, but he does WP Launchify, where his Fernando agent does all kinds of crazy stuff with WordPress. I mean, they his big thing is WordPress is the box and then he surrounds the box with, you know, all the stuff.
And he's been leveraging AI like crazy for like two years. but here's something that's interesting. I find that people that do that, they they get very successful in that space. So let's let's they're gonna kill me. They're both gonna kill me, right? let's say that Spencer and Kevin are both in that space, they're gonna think they're totally opposite people. But I'm gonna tell you: like when you listen to both of them talk, they're so focused.
on the success of their individual projects and what they're doing, it's it's they're it's at a different level, right? It's almost like it's hard to listen to them. You know? And that's I think people that are truly successful in the space have to become like so maniacally focused on what they're working towards to the point that they annoy everybody else, but they find that path.
Toby Cryns (14:31)
Well yeah, 'cause they're they're building the tool.
They're the they're building tools, right? And you and I are using tools. It's a different conversation. And I think like in many ways, like I want their knowledge, but they need my knowledge and your knowledge 'cause they don't you know, we're the ones who are on the ground talking to people about what they actually need and they're kind of building things, hoping that what they're building is what people actually need.
Kurt von Ahnen (14:35)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Correct.
Yeah, I could kind of see it in that way. It's ⁓ their work with AI, I think, is pretty extraordinary, right? And so w when I see what they're doing, there's a part of me, you know, I'm I've been very reticent with AI. Like I use it all the time, but I'm very, very cautious of it. And ⁓ when I see what they're doing, I go, Okay, that's pretty cool. That is pretty cool. I'm still not in a hundred percent, but it's cool to see it it's cool to see it work. my level of AI use is like I go to Claude and I'm
Because I got really behind on a personal project. And I'm one of those people, right? If I'm not producing at a certain rate, I start to beat myself up internally. And I thought, you know what? I'm just gonna leverage AI to help me with this. And I told AI, told Claude, I this is my topic. This is my subject outline. And I need you to build me a Lifter LMS formatted JSON file that will become a course. And it said, do you want placeholders put in place for the videos? And I was like, Yeah.
Like, what? Yeah, I want all of it. And it it it did it. It made the whole course for me.
Toby Cryns (15:52)
I love how your AI is a young Russell Crowe.
Kurt von Ahnen (15:55)
Young Russell Crowe.
Toby Cryns (15:56)
It's like the some Australian man.
Kurt von Ahnen (15:58)
I don't know where these I don't know where that comes from.
Toby Cryns (16:00)
⁓ I think it's time. Like so I've been playing with with AI in WordPress. Not I haven't used etched, I haven't used any of the tools you're talking about, but just like trying to figure out it on my own. And we took we built over the last year and a half, we built a custom plugin for a school that does a ton of custom stuff, workflows specific to their use case. And I don't know, I bet you we invested
Let's say 30 or 40 hours building this plugin. It's a WordPress plugin. It's fully it does everything the WordPress way. They asked for a feature just last week, and I was like, let me see what AI can do. This is in my head. And so I took that plugin and I just wired it up to AI. And I like had to take some steps to do that. But once it did that, I was like, okay, now solve this or add this specific feature. And all that, wiring it up, doing it, took about let's say four hours.
Of my time. And now it has this new feature that might have taken me an hour to build if I had done it on my own. But now we have it all wired up, and I'm like, and he has a list of 10 things he needs done. And I'm like, now I think I can just tell AI to do these 10 things. And so I think for me, I'm there. Like, I'm like, okay, team, we need to embrace AI and in our workflows with WordPress, even though the tooling isn't perfect and not ideal. But it's, I think it's time.
Kurt von Ahnen (17:18)
I think where a lot of people get lost in the conversation that that you I'm I'm so I'm not arguing with you. Please don't come after me. But using your own example, right? 30 to 40 hours. Well, if your agency time is $200 an hour, you know, you spend $8,000, right? And so think about a plug-in, right? How much does it cost me to buy buy a plugin? $100, $200, $500. Lift our LMS, Infinity Bundle, $1,500, right?
⁓ eight thousand dollars is not cheap. And I think that that's plus, you know, the expense of the AI tool and all that stuff, right? Whatever your subscription was, whatever your AI credits were, and all that stuff. So let's let's say maybe it's nine thousand dollars. Let's just, you know, shoot for the moon, right? I think a lot of people struggle with hey, I don't even know what the hell I'm doing, right? So let's start there. I don't even know what the hell I'm doing.
I really don't know what the outcome's gonna be, but I'm gonna spend nine grand on this and see and see what happens, right? kudos to you because you did it and it worked. And it gave you a foundational piece that you can build off of, right? But I think a lot of people struggle with that, that initial commitment, that initial bucks that's the boat I'm in. The boat I'm in right now is like, okay, I'm familiar with some AI tools and I'm familiar with some things I can do for productivity, but I haven't really leveraged
Like I haven't built myself something that automates a process for my agency yet. Because I'm like, I really don't, I don't have 30 or 40 hours to slap into something. but then I look at the benefits. Lifter LMS, and I don't want to give away too much secret sauce, but Chris at Lifter LMS, not a developer, not a coder, not you know, not even though he's like an implementer. He's he's more like me than a developer, right? they've been leveraging some AI tools and now.
They have a developer team, but now Chris can get an idea as the owner of Lifter LMS. He can he can get an idea and he goes to this AI tool that they built and he kind of plays with it a little bit and then he passes it over to the developers and he goes, This is kind of something I'd like to look at. What do you guys think? But it's because they've in they did the investment up front, they built the tool, you know, they got Chris up to speed, and it's ⁓ and he loves AI anyway. Like he's he loves AI as much as he loves crypto, I think, because he's one of those crypto bros. And
It just seems to work. And so here I am on the outside of that looking in. I'm outside looking in and I'm going, the they didn't know what the real outcome was gonna be, but they made the investment and it gave them a foundational piece that they're able to build off of. And you just described the same thing. But how did you how did you make that commitment, Toby, to go, hey, it might take us thirty or forty hours, but let's see what happens.
Toby Cryns (19:45)
Well, first of all, I'll go back to my premise. It sounded fun. And I think like that's important. As you you know, if you wanna love your work as much as is possible, and I'm not saying we should all love our work, but ideally we would not hate our work and w it it but in a worst case my goal is to show up to work and go, it's okay. Like and I think this AI tooling is
Helping me enjoy my work. So I'll start there. and so the challenge sounded fun. And what I'm not sure about moving forward, and I I read someone's post on LinkedIn today where they were like, it's this like age-old question: like, the reality is, is like stuff is gonna be cheaper to build. Like that plugin that cost us 30 or 40 hours, maybe it's a 10-hour build today if we were to start fresh and do it vibe coding and all that.
And you know, this brings back all other conversations we've had is like, what does that mean in terms of how you should bill and what it should cost? Do the costs change? Do they not change? You know, I don't know. And it kind of there's a lot of context to unwrap there, but that's a lot of what goes into it for me is like like let's say a client's paying for it, because I still think like even if someone's paying me to vibe code this app or this plugin, it's still potentially a week of work.
for someone, for me or another expert to like really polish it up. And maybe it's less than a week and depends on the thing, but like that's all that's p costly, you know, that that's and i if you want me to exist as a company, even if it was just me, you need to pay for that, you know.
Kurt von Ahnen (21:12)
Well, and that's where I I get lost, right? And and just just being blunt, right? Because I have a contractor model. So let's say I give this to my contractor and and again, unknown result, you know, unknown starting point, right? I'm diving in blind, but I want to build this thing and I kind of know what it's gonna be, right? Boom. And he goes, Well, look, Kurt, it could take 30, 40 hours. I you know, I don't know. And I go, Okay, you know, and I go, Great, let's do it. if I was doing that for a customer.
So let's say I'm in like $8,000, right? I gotta sell it for 10 or 12, right? What would that customer have been able to purchase for $10 $12,000, right? Probably something that would do the job. And that's that's my struggle. That's kind of my struggle point. My other struggle point is what you described as being fun. I look at as anxiety. So if I if I vibe code something.
Eight, 10 hours, I vibe code something and it's kind of like this big base thing. And then the customer says, I wish it did X, Y, and Z. In my mind, like you were like, Well, I just took it to AI and I you know, how would we make this do X, Y, and Z? That all makes total sense. But in my mind, I'm thinking to myself, my God, I got this giant chunk of a base thing that I made. And I gotta figure out what segment of that chunk is gonna be the change. Like now I've got to reverse engineer this thing and try to remember or figure out.
Where where the thing is that tweaks this tool. And that's where I'm like, I could just I could just buy an extension to a plug-in. Boom.
Toby Cryns (22:33)
Yeah.
Well, there are that's one great thing about WordPress too, is that there is a fantastic plug-in ecosystem that can pretty much do anything you want, you know, at a high level.
Kurt von Ahnen (22:45)
Yeah.
Toby Cryns (22:46)
And I can in general I lean into that. Like I still would say just install WordPress and use their plugins, especially if you're gonna do something that requires you to use Stripe or sensitive data. Use the existing ecosystem because they've solved a lot of the security-related things. ⁓ and I think like my embrace of AI is more.
Kurt von Ahnen (23:01)
Yeah, yeah.
Toby Cryns (23:05)
You know, in terms of WordPress specifically, it's there's definite productivity gains that I can already see. I'm not saying I'm feeling them yet, but they're there.
And that's kind of the the case I outlined there. ⁓ I you know here's an example. I have a plugin I use to organize my own audio files. I write a lot of music, I record it, I put it on a website. And this plugin, you know, I've built it over a decade or more, and it's sitting in GitHub, and every year I do a little bit. And yesterday I was like, I was using ⁓ an awesome WordPress plugin I'll promote here. It's called Facet WP, and I've used it many times and
it's fantastic. But it's tricky and complex and you know it adds a lot of weight to a site, let's say. and I went to chat GPT or yeah, to my to Claude Code. I was like, okay, here's my plugin. And it took me again, took me an hour to set up the environment and like tell teet to teach Claude how to access the plugin correctly. But once I did that, now there's a document that explains the Claude each time.
Once I did that, then I was like, I don't want to use facet WP anymore. So do it with plain JavaScript, but do the same thing. And it did it. It literally like extracted all the functionality. It didn't do the didn't use any of well, I don't know actually, but it probably didn't use any of facet WP's code, honestly. Like that's my guess, is that it did not reuse any code. It it just said, okay, there's a
Kurt von Ahnen (24:09)
Yeah.
Toby Cryns (24:25)
select two box like it you know it went and got that library and and it looks different now but it functions the same. I have no I didn't go back and review all the code. I kind of see the structure. I kind of get how it structured it. But I'm like, yeah, I'm I'm confident enough in this result that like I don't need to review this code. It's not doing anything sensitive. It's a personal site.
I don't know. When I think of embracing AI, that's where I'm at. Like I I'm inching my way in. There's some real interesting gains potentially as an agency owner that I see.
Kurt von Ahnen (24:57)
So I I wanna do this. and I'm looking at our time and and I think we've got enough time to cover this. We're talking about AI, right? How to commit, how to leverage, how to do, how to implement. At the end of the day, you you and your team need tools to make this crap happen, right? Like like so so this is like so I'm a big proponent of magi. I use magi, I get access to all these different AI channels, right? So nana banana, blah blah blah so cause I need a sample.
bunch of them. I'm not an expert in any one of them. So I'm like, give me a platform where I can sample all of them and try different different tools for different things. But I'm friends with developers that are like, well, I have VS code, I've got a cursor, I've got claude claude code, some kind of claw thing. Like it just goes on and on. Who's in your so in your opinion, in your opinion, who's responsible to have the tools?
Toby Cryns (25:46)
I think plumbers bring their own tools, electricians bring their own tools, as you know, mechanics bring their own tools. If you're a professional, you bring your tools. Whatever tools that you're gonna be using, you're a professional, bring your tools. Or or are you not a professional? Are you an entry-level person who's like, what tools do I need? Give me your tools, you know. You provide, you know, you could you could be that's what an entry-level person does. They go, I need tools. What tools do I need?
Kurt von Ahnen (26:04)
Yeah.
Toby Cryns (26:12)
Are you gonna buy them for me? You know?
Kurt von Ahnen (26:14)
I think that is incredibly insightful because there there are entry level people, right? There aren't like there's people fresh out of college that are like, crap, I've never had a job before, right? hey, what does this look like? And so and let's just use round numbers, right? Because I no matter where someone's listening to this in the world, it's it's gonna sound different or hokey, right? But let's say entry level's $20 an hour, but at $20 an hour
You know, you're giving them ⁓ you know, you're sharing your subscription, you're giving them their own account to something, you're you're you know, you're you're supplying them with some assets to produce and do some work. But if someone's coming to me and they want thirty-five, forty dollars an hour, right? I expect that I'm gonna be able to give them tasks and they're gonna be able to give me completed product. Like boom. And and let's be clear, in the space here in the States, I mean, I've I've subcontracted people that get $110, $120, $130 an hour, right? But
But those people, if I'm gonna hire them, I don't have to supply anything. I say, here's the task, here's what I need executed, and I get something finished. But if it's if I'm looking to save budget or to give someone a boost, like I have that apprentice program. So I'm looking to give a lot of people a boost through that. And people that graduate our apprentice program, they actually get free software for a year. They've they we've got we've lined up
some premium plugins where we say, hey, you get the first year for free to go launch your own agency without having to capitalize it. Right. So so when it comes to the tool thing, even in that position, I'm like, if you graduate the apprentice program, you're getting these tools. They're your tools and then you'll take them to your next tasks. Right. And then when that year's up, it's expected that they're going to subscribe and, you know, float that expense themselves.
Toby Cryns (27:50)
I think like professionals need professional tools, whatever that means to you. And and you listener, I mean. And so I I fix guitars. This is an example. I have some nice tools and some crappy Amazon tools for that. And
The reality is that like the professional grade tools work way better, last way longer. They're, you know, if I were doing more than three guitars a year, I would probably upgrade all the tools. And it kind of bothers me, whether you're talking to Fiverr or elsewhere, when people prof people purporting to be professionals show up without the tools.
Kurt von Ahnen (28:27)
Or weird low shelf tools. You know what I mean? Like, so again, not the AI expert everyone expects me to be. when I'm shopping in Magi for what tool I want to use, it says right on the side what the credit cost is gonna be, right? So is this gonna bill at a one point one? Is this gonna bill at a two point one? Is this gonna bill at a at a point five, right? And so it tells me the value of each of those tools that I'm using.
Toby Cryns (28:29)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Kurt von Ahnen (28:50)
And there are some people that will say, yeah, I'm an AI expert, but they're not subscribed to any legit mainstream AI tool. They're like on, you know, Pixar or something like that. They've got some lifetime deal they bought on some extraneous third party AI thing. And it's like and they give you you can tell when you get the content, because you get the content and you're like, What the heck is this? And they'll it's like, I have edited for you. No, you haven't.
Toby Cryns (29:07)
huh.
Yeah.
Kurt von Ahnen (29:16)
This is horrible.
Toby Cryns (29:17)
All right. ⁓ let's wrap up. We're about at time here. I wanted to promote something that ⁓ our our ⁓ boss, Matt. Our boss, you know, I heard ⁓ yeah, anyway. Our boss Matt Medeiros, who owns the agency action brand, I guess, who we report to regularly and who demands virtually nothing out of us.
Kurt von Ahnen (29:25)
Hey boss.
I was I was
g I was gonna say we gotta clock in, we gotta clock out. My cubicle's a mess.
Toby Cryns (29:39)
Yeah.
⁓ he created this awesome fun game. It's called agencyactionpodcast.com. You go there and you have to guess who said it. Did I say it or did Kurt say it? Did Kurt say it or did Toby say it? And then it's like kind of a neat little tool where you can kind of learn a bit and it's kind of like a highlight reel of our podcast. So really cool. Wanted to promote that. Also, if if you're out there in the world and you have an idea of something we can talk about, please leave a comment in whatever podcast.
place you're listening or wherever you find us. Speaking of which, Kurt, where can we find ya?
Kurt von Ahnen (30:11)
LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn. The good thing we opened up the show talking about the the crime of LinkedIn. I'm the only Kurt von Ahnen On in there. I'm easy to find. my my agency name is also Manana No Mas. And you can find me on all the social channels by that name.
Toby Cryns (30:24)
Great. And I'm Toby Cryns You can find me on LinkedIn as well. Last name is C-R-Y-N-S. It's true, there's not a Toby. You never found a Toby you didn't like. So I'm also at themightymo.com. We do WordPress design, development, SEO. Thanks everybody. We'll see you next time. Thanks for joining the agency action.