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We welcome midwives from all walks of life to our down-to-earth, educational, and informative podcast, where we bring thoughtful focus and relevant insights to the modern midwife on midwifery education (advocacy, business, clinical, and self-care), professional themes, and current issues.
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Our mission is simple, straightforward, and from the heart: to provide globally accessible resources at every stage of your journey. So, wherever you are in your midwifery journey, we welcome you home to the Midwifery Wisdom Collective Podcast. We can’t wait to share the exciting new content we have in store for you, both here and through our Midwifery Wisdom Foundation, which aligns with our vision and advocacy in midwifery education. We are because of YOU!
Welcome back to the Midwifery Wisdom Podcast. We took a little break in September, but we're still rolling strong in the 5th season. And this week's episode is, really awesome. It's it's hard to describe what it is to sit at the feet of an advocate who's been in the work, and supporting and protecting midwifery for more than 40 years. And it is my honor to introduce Suzanne Armes.
Augustine:I first met Suzanne in Philadelphia in 2003 or 4. She actually interviewed me for a documentary she was producing at the time I don't think it ever went to, print, but we got to talk in this hotel room And I had a squirmy nursing baby And I was talking to her about my births and my work as a midwife And she was talking to me about her advocacy work and the state of affairs And it's such a joy to introduce her to you all Many know her name She's been literally, tirelessly working to foster change from the traditional maternity care system, which at the time when she gave birth required you to lay on your back and be strapped down. She has been this feminist with these strong beliefs. And she has led many people and many advocates on their work knowing that it's a physical, emotional, spiritual impact of birth. She's very well known for her books and her speaking engagements.
Augustine:She was last year's midwifery wisdom award winner. And I am just so overjoyed to share this interview with you and also to share the news that she is this year's online keynote speaker. So without further ado, let's drop in and listen to this beautiful interview.
Suzanne:Hi, you. Back to you. How long have you been in India?
Augustine:I've been in India for 4 years.
Suzanne:What took you to India?
Augustine:I was actually stuck in Australia during the pandemic, and I really didn't wanna be there anymore. And, my company does headhunting for various positions in midwifery, and I got a request for a clinical director. And so I put my own name in the hat in order to get out of Australia on a valid visa during COVID. Wow. And I had never imagined going there.
Augustine:I had never thought I would visit India. It was not a part of my focus, and now it's my only focus.
Suzanne:You're happy to be here.
Augustine:I love it. It's my home now.
Suzanne:Wow. Mhmm. I wonder what it would show in your astrocartography map. It would probably show that this is the place I
Augustine:wondered that too. Well, I've I've actually studied astrocartography, and the with my Venus line is apparently Turin, Italy. And I I went there last summer thinking, oh, maybe this is where I'm supposed to be. And it was such a no. I had to leave before the end of my plans.
Augustine:So, like, I should not live on my Venus line. I know that.
Suzanne:Yeah. Well, that's true. Venus line and your work line are totally different.
Augustine:I'm just so happy to connect with you. I just I'm so overjoyed and so grateful. My friend, you are leading us into such the area I wanted to talk about, which is, this this work this work is endless, and yet our bodies do not last forever. And I I've always taken such guidance from you over the years. You've been such an inspiration, you know, writing and, producing.
Augustine:It and I just I wonder if you have any guidance for those of us who are deep in it.
Suzanne:Well, I I think the main thing is, as I look back over my career as a loner, a lone wolf, I would say, connect yourself to an organization if you possibly can, because you won't be so lonely. And also you'll have, people who can give you a lot of feedback. And then have some kind of spiritual practice so that you stay in touch with the fact that what you are doing this lifetime is just a small part of what the universe and the great mystery is all about, and that you are really important and yet not important. So it it helps your ego stay in check, and it's a really good reminder. And I've I've begun a practice since I've stopped meditating for the last year.
Suzanne:I haven't meditated, but I I've been doing spiritual readings every morning. And, it's I do that before I look at my email because it's really easy for me to get plugged into the day. So that that would be my guidance. And to have a couple of close friends who you can bounce ideas off of, who are willing to give you their honest feedback, that would really help.
Augustine:That's so great. I love that. Yeah. A lot of us ended up or started out alone Yeah. Because this was such lonely work for so long.
Augustine:But it's different now. Don't you think?
Suzanne:Mhmm. In good and bad ways. I mean, when I look at some of the younger midwives coming up, they didn't have the passion and zeal that the midwives in the early seventies had and the urgent need to read everything they could about obstetrical problems, to talk with veterinarians as well as any speak to them to get whatever wisdom they could. A lot of the women coming up don't have that, which is really sad. Maybe that's true always of the first generation of a group of people.
Suzanne:But, I would say it's a loss because that generation of midwives who were even my age in their, in their eighties or late seventies, they became wives and they, they learned all about homeopathy. They learned all about, natural medicines. They, they were just unquenchable in their thirst. And I think we need that as midwives have grown in numbers and as to midwifery has become easier and there's been more training for the midwives. I'd I'd say it's really important for anyone who wants to be a midwife to find older senior midwives, to listen deeply to them, to take the role of complications in birth seriously, even though most of them are caused by socioeconomic or psychological reasons, women can still die in birth and so can their babies.
Suzanne:And it's, it's a craft, it's a perfection, it's a calling, and it requires a great deal of humility along with a sense of seriousness. I I have met a few very appealing, very attractive young midwives who've gotten very full of themselves and went beyond their scope of practice and didn't realize when they needed to call for help or what they really shouldn't have attempted to handle and did, and then had babies die and almost lost a mother. And I've met some of these people who I would say have personality disorders. They have a sense of their own, of being invulnerable. And so when they get thrown out of a community, or doing bad things, or not getting feedback from physicians or whatever, they go to another community, 3 states over, and they start all over, and they tell you lies.
Suzanne:Oh, I've been to 5000 births. Now this is a woman who's 30 years old. There's no way she could have been to 5000 births. So, I would say that's a very small subset, but it is really important to recognize that any profession that is at the edge of a society, which is what midwifery is, is going to attract some people who are, who have personality disorders. And, it's really important that we be honest with ourselves and each other, and that midwives create groups of people who will assess their records, who will meet regularly.
Suzanne:The midwives of Santa Cruz, I'm thinking of right now, the younger midwives have dropped all of the senior midwives from their group. They no longer invite them to case studies. It's like, what? What are you doing? Is these are the repositories of all the knowledge of 50 years of midwifery at home.
Suzanne:So, yeah. Manna, the midwives of North America died, and it really didn't die. It was killed. It was killed by some very self soothing midwives who, felt that they could take it over for their own purposes, and I I won't even tell you who they are. I'm just I'm so appalled because matter was
Augustine:Yeah. I think there were a lot of a lot of layers there. I think it did lose its way maybe, but I also think that it was losing its way for a whole decade. You know? I, I did an interview with some of the last leaders of Mana, And I think they feel like they were handed a a a dying organization and so on and so forth.
Augustine:So I I think it's been a a long time coming. And I think a lot of people did feel like like the grandmother of midwifery died. You know?
Suzanne:I think I think there's a need for a new birthing a new organization. That is Yeah.
Augustine:Well, Suzanne, you know, I've been trying to do that actually for, about a decade. And the Midwifery Wisdom Collective, this that host this podcast and conferences and workshops and online education and all the things. You know, I I have not been successful, I think. And, I mean, in some ways I have, but I can't find anyone who wants to carry the weight, carry the mantle, keep it going, which And so I understand what happened to Mana.
Suzanne:Takes a lot of energy, takes a lot of people, it takes a dedication, and it takes some good people around you.
Augustine:Yeah. I have extraordinary team members, but the best team members that I've worked with are not midwives.
Suzanne:That may be true.
Augustine:Right. Because midwives are so busy midwifing.
Suzanne:Yeah. It it's true because, midwives so often, like, midwives and partnerships never see each other.
Augustine:Yeah. It's uncommon. I mean, if they're doing it well, otherwise, you know yeah.
Suzanne:So, you know, I would say that it's really important to bring non midwives in. Mid midwifery advocates, doulas, earth educators who are radical. They need to be part of the midwife movement too because the midwife care is something that is just now beginning to be even talked about. You know, in in the world of business, the term, the verb to midwife became bandied about 15 years ago, and you'd see men in suits talking about midwifing an idea. And they really had no idea what midwifery was, but they'd heard that it was about not controlling, but nurturing and supporting and teasing out the very best.
Suzanne:Well, it's it's gained a real foothold, but the midwife model of care has gained no foothold in hospitals. And it needs to be the model around the world. Whether it's practiced by a nurse practitioner or an obstetrician or a general practitioner, it it the midwife model of care is a very clear biologically appropriate model and needs to be the model that everything else is referenced to. And an example of that is the, NICUs, the intensive care nursery for babies. The idea of separating an intensively needy baby, young, too small, born too soon, ill from its mother is insane.
Suzanne:Now I have seen places in the world where mothers and premature babies, even tiny, tiny ones are nursed together. And the baby is right there on the mother's body with all of the leads and oxygen and everything else hooked up to the baby as the baby is on the mother's body, and the nurses or midwives who are caring for this mother baby unit, because they are one biological system, is within a few feet of these mothers and babies. And, everything done for the baby is done either on the mother's body or within a few feet where she can have her hand on the baby. So this can be done, but that's the midwife model of care. No separation.
Augustine:Agreed. I I literally couldn't agree anymore. I when listening to you, I'm having flashbacks of you being interviewed in that film giving birth. I think you produce.
Suzanne:Right? Yep.
Augustine:I'm having flash bags of your words in that film, you know? I taught childbirth classes for 20 years, and that was a regular staple. And so I've heard you say that so many times that I'm having flashbacks to that great film.
Suzanne:Like crying in the wilderness, you know? And,
Augustine:Well, I this is this is what I wanna focus on. It's like you wrote your first book in 1973. Yeah. And then you continued this advocacy work for, you know, half a century almost. Yeah.
Augustine:And yet
Suzanne:the reason is as I went along, I began to learn more and more about the subject, more and more about what was going on with women in birth, more and more about what happened to me, more and more about my early trauma, not just in birth, but sexual abuse from my father for years, more and more about the consciousness of babies and about the mother baby system as one whole system. I became part of the Association For Free and Perinatal Psychology Movement, APA. And, actually it was started as a result of me bringing Tom Verney to who wrote one of the first books about consciousness of babies to Palo Alto, California, and then sitting around afterwards, actually in my hot tub and talking about what he was doing. And I turned to him and I said, you need to start an organization. And that I'm really good at telling other people what they should do.
Suzanne:So it started it started the North American version of what was going on in Europe as the Association For Pre and Perinatal Psychology and Health, it is what it became known as. And I have seen that organization almost die and then come alive again with a whole generation of young women who are eagerly taking it on and who were having weekly free Zoom calls and podcasts and teach ins from a lot of the luminaries who were in their seventies eighties now. And I'm so excited. In the beginning, APA had was called Pana first, but it had 5 or 600 people come from all over the world. And then the conferences got down to about 70 or 80 people, and and I was so afraid it was going to die.
Suzanne:Cause it was so important because it was talking about the mother baby system. And it was talking about, the consciousness of babies and life in the womb and conception and things that the midwifery movement knew about innately, but didn't necessarily talk about at conferences. And, to see that organization come alive again, it's very exciting for me. The the the big challenge is that the more we understand about the awareness and consciousness and sensitivity of babies, the more the anti feminist, anti abortion movement that calls themselves the right to life, can take that information and use it as a reason why women shouldn't be allowed to terminate a pregnancy, which is appalling. And of course, midwifery has always, along with being herbalists, mid, midwives have always been the ones who cared for the women who needed an abortion, who were having a miscarriage, or for the families who were experiencing a death.
Suzanne:The midwives were the center of traditional communities. So the place for midwifery is right in the center of society, and the place for the mother baby unit, I believe, should be at the center of all political and economic and social decisions that a country makes. For example, I do not feel that any consumer product or product that is going to get to consumers like, oh, weed killer, should be allowed to be on the market until it has been proven safe for the developing brain of a child. Now doesn't that make sense?
Augustine:Whew. Wouldn't that be a revolution? You can almost imagine the the rippling effect across society if that was the center.
Suzanne:Along with that, that any company that wants to create a product that goes out into the world has to do it in such a way that almost all of its ingredients are reusable or recyclable or non toxic. And I remember reading when Switzerland the nation of Switzerland required consumer products that when the people who had purchased them were done with them or when the product was no longer any good, it would be returned to the factory that made it. And they had to figure out what to do with it. Now so what happened as a result, instead of a carpet having a 110 toxic chemicals in it, they got it down to, like, 5 because it was in their economic interest since they had the carpet bath to figure out how to dispose of it safely. So these are the kinds of things that the midwifery model of care, the midwife model of care really brings forth.
Suzanne:It's, it's, it's a vision of being in alignment with nature, of reciprocity with nature. And I don't know how many of your viewers have read the book Braiding Sweetgrass, But that's a perfect example of an indigenous tribal member woman, who's also a western biologist, weaving together the indigenous wisdom of her people about the plant world with modern biology. And, I mean, it's it's sold millions all over the world. It's been translated into many languages. And she's the one who's brought forth the term, It's an indigenous term reciprocity rather than sustainability because reciprocity means that you give to nature before you take from nature.
Suzanne:And that's true with how we need to approach birth, with how we need to approach, a conception, with how we need to approach a pregnant, a childbearing woman, a new couple with their baby. Their needs should be at the center of all society. And that's a far cry from where we are.
Augustine:It's such a far cry, and at the same time, it's very close too. I, I have the great pleasure of now being, the the director of a new hospital that's based on the midwifery model of care. And this experience of in staff meetings and board meetings and in meeting with consulting obstetricians and anesthesiologists ringing the bell for this mother baby dyad, in every interaction. No. When we move the mother from the cesarean bed to the bed, the baby goes with her.
Augustine:You know, when she goes from recovery back to her room, the baby goes with her. There's never a time when mother, baby, or father are ever separated, even if baby needs intervention, even if mother needs intervention. And it's such a paradigm shift. And yet, once it's understood, it's like such a, duh. You know,
Suzanne:it's like such a, oh, yes, it's weird. And all kinds of things change. We we start cross training nurses, so that nurse Exactly. Maternity care for the mother, and nurses who were doing ICU care for the baby are now the same nurse doing both.
Augustine:Exactly. Which is middle free. It's middle free. It's just high-tech middle free, You know? But, yes, it it's such a it's such a profound a profoundly obvious discovery.
Augustine:Right? And, and and bringing it to some of these very traditionally trained providers has been such an experience to see the and the light bulb, and also the fear. And then the questions that come out and, like for instance, it is very traditional for a cesarean born baby to not only go to an isolate or a warmer, but then to be across the hospital in a different room. Right? This this NICU reality.
Augustine:And in India, all babies go to the NICU no matter how they're born. And this is for a period of 3 to 4 hours because this is still happening here, and sometimes longer. And so explaining that in this because I've gotten to be at the very beginning, I've been, I actually drew out the floor plan of the hospital and figuring out what goes everywhere. And so I I did not draw or build a NICU. We have NICU capacity.
Augustine:We have, high-tech, you know, there's oxygen on the wall in every room and we have, you know, warmers and isolates and, pulse oximeters and NICU nurses and, like, we have the team. We have the equipment. It's just never in one place. It's wherever the mom is. And trying to explain this to the new staff has been such a fascinating experience and and the arc.
Augustine:And it it goes so fast for some people. Like, it's like, you know, one patient care, and they're like, oh, I got it. This is actually easier. Why would we walk from one end of the hospital to the other? Why would we get a mother out of the bed and put her in a wheelchair and wheel her to another space after a cesarean?
Augustine:Of course, we bring the baby to her. Like, you know, it's just like moment in the it that's so obvious that once you get it, you almost are embarrassed that it's been happening another way. You know? Exactly. I and it's been profound to see this on this micro level.
Augustine:And I keep imagining, like, how can it become, you know, mainstream?
Suzanne:Well, you know, the breastfeeding movement, which attempted to get hospital certified as baby friendly, was a step in the right direction because, of course, all babies need to be breastfed. And if they can't be fed at the mother's breast, they can be fed by the mother's breast on the mother's breast with a tube with breast milk, connecting from her breast and going into the baby's mouth. It can be another mother's breast milk. The country of England actually sent out a letter, their public health department to all pediatricians in ICUs saying that breast milk was so critically important for at risk newborns, that anybody, any physician who did not make sure that baby got breast milk was practicing malpractice and should have a license taken away. That was the country of England.
Suzanne:But, of course, they have they have public health, that is controlled centrally. And so if they make a bad decision, like the decision to phase out direct entry midwifery schools in the 6th in the seventies, they they reversed that now and brought them back in. Okay. So that's a bad example of what can happen when things are centralized. But it also means when things are centralized and they say every baby needs to be breastfed, you know, then bam, that goes into action.
Suzanne:And I can remember watching in tiny, tiny newborns in an Ethiopian hospital being gauze wrapped because that's all they had. Gauze wrapped naked to their mother's naked body. And the mothers were all circulating, standing, talking to each other, sitting down in one room with their babies on their bodies with heaters from the corners of the room, at the ceiling, throwing heat down to the mothers and babies. And that was an example of the midwife model of care. And I can remember the young pediatrician in the same Ethiopian Addis Ababa hospital coming in to check how breastfeeding was going with the new mom.
Suzanne:He knelt at her bedside to be equal to her, his eyes equal height, and it was so tender. It was so wonderful seeing what he did. That's the midwife model of care. It's it's it's respect. It's honoring deep, honoring of the process and of the vulnerability, the innate, not just resilience, but vulnerability of childbearing women and babies, such that a woman's psyche is like a, a sieve, a strainer.
Suzanne:Everything you say to her goes right in. And if you, if you say things that are disparaging, like a woman crying out in labor, who's 18 years old and the nursing to her, well, you should have thought about this when you got pregnant. She will never forget those words. So we are dealing with the psyche. We are dealing with the physiology of the female body.
Suzanne:We're dealing with the environment. We're we're dealing with so much, and we're bringing to it a very old paradigm, which is patriarchy that has been in domination for more than 8000 years. And it's not just controlled by men. It's the belief that everything that is masculine, is better. And, and that's got to change.
Suzanne:And, it is changing, but it's very difficult because women are socialized in this system. I was socialized in this system. When I went to college, I did not have one professor who wasn't a woman. That was 1961 to 65. Every one of my professors were men.
Augustine:Wow.
Suzanne:Yeah. And until I think it was about the 1970s, 95% of all obstetricians were male. And, you know, the way they talked to you was from a position of superiority. You know? Which of us is the is the doctor?
Suzanne:Which of us went to 4 years of medical school is what I was
Augustine:Well, that's still happening. I mean, I feel like the the the the it's not just patronizing. It's infantilizing. That's still happening in a really large way. And now with the new understanding or specific understanding of the effects of obstetric violence, I think, finally, there's a little more attention on it, but it's still there.
Augustine:And, like, that's the segue to this work because you've been doing this for half a century. You've been deeply involved in the with remodeled care and advocating for the mother baby dyad, and you didn't become a midwife. Correct? So what kept you going? Why do you still care so much?
Augustine:Because I don't even think you make money at this. You just, like, love everyone and tell everyone all this stuff you've learned, but, like, what has kept you going?
Augustine:We all grapple with this question. In fact, what does keep us going? I've been grappling with this question a lot recently. It's no surprise if you're a regular podcast listener that we took an unscheduled break and that the conference switched from in person to online and that we've been struggling. And when I say we, I really I really mean me.
Augustine:It's been hard to keep going And carrying the weight of the calls with poor outcomes and the real persecution against the midwifery model of care and certainly the big public cases, but also the private ones, the ones where a midwife got yelled at or locked out of her patient's care or her patient was lied to about her or, even the infighting between midwives. I'm preaching to the choir. I'm sure if you're listening to this podcast, you know the struggles that midwives are facing right now. And so that's why I wanna give you a personal invitation. We have built a beautiful online conference against all odds, and we have some really incredible, passionate, beautiful speakers coming your way.
Augustine:So this is just an invitation to take a moment out of your day. Come check out the lineup at midwiferywisdomed. Com and come join us. The regular ticket gives you access to 30 days of the content. You can watch it live or listen to it recorded.
Augustine:And many of those sessions do have CEUs. The VIP ticket allows you to jump on and ask questions and join me for some of our wisdom panels. And Suzanne Armes is just one of many amazing speakers we have confirmed. People that will lift us up and make the burden a little lighter, will support us and cheer for us and teach us. So I hope you'll join me November, starting November 4th, and it's all the details are
Suzanne:on
Augustine:libofreewisdom.com. And a big thank you to everyone for your patience as we found our way. Now let's listen to Suzanne's answer
Suzanne:paid profession called social agent of change or agent of social change. So there's no money in it. But what kept me going was a combination of discovering more and more about what this period of time had meant in my life, what my birth from my mother had been like, what my mother's birth from her deaf Ukrainian 4 foot 10 grandmother who was locked in a labor room at 1913 because there weren't enough nurses on the floor because they were mostly at the war carrying for troops and who spent the entire labor terrified and had 2 births in rapid succession in great fear. And after that, as a Catholic woman, aborted herself with every, every possible means, including coat hangers. So I knew, you know, I found out all of this, and then I learned more about my own birth in the trauma, traumatic way in which I was born and my mother's legs were held together because the doctor refused to come to the hospital because it was his night off.
Suzanne:And he had told my mother, Eleanor, do not have this baby on a Tuesday. That's my poker night. And, of course, I, being an Aries child, chose to start labor on a Tuesday night. And the poor labor nurse, labor and delivery nurse, she was under the constraint of not being allowed to let me be born until the doctor was in the room, or she would lose her job. And that's another part of patriarchy.
Suzanne:In the hospitals, you had you had domineering nurses controlling the nurseries. Nobody could visit even the big the doctors couldn't visit the nursery, but then you had these domineering male obstetricians who were telling nurses that they would be fired if they allowed the baby to be born before the mother before the doctor arrived. So my mother's legs were held back by the nurse when every contraction during second stage as my head is being pushed out by the uterus, which, of course, at that point is the strongest muscle in the body, and the baby is moving itself to try and be born. Her legs were held together and her hand pushed my head back with every contraction. Now that happened so many times in the decades from, let's say, 1915 when birth was brought into the hospital in the US to 1945 when I was born, 44, that many of those babies ended up with severe brain damage and were in mental institutions, but it was not challenged, until the seventies, you know, until men have handcuffing partners labor bed in order not to be thrown out of the labor room.
Augustine:Wow.
Suzanne:That was amazing. That was very creative. Of course, the what the staff would do is then take her out of the bed, move her to another bed, and he'd be handcuffed back in the labor room. But it it made a difference. People's activism has made a difference.
Suzanne:And the activism now has to be about how much damage we're doing to families, and the mother baby unit, and the ACE study, the, reverse childhood events. Even though it has not gone back to birth, it still starts at, like, 1 year. Adverse child experiences, childhood experiences, which document that what is done to children that is either neglect or abuse or that they see around them has lifelong implications. So we have trauma informed education. We have trauma informed nursing care we have, but it hasn't gone into the labor and delivery unit.
Suzanne:And we haven't had to birth and pregnancy where an awful lot of trauma occurs. And that baby in the womb is receiving all of the mother's emotions, including the toxicity of chronic fear and, abuse that she's experiencing or neglect or loneliness. So, this is coming to the fore, which is really wonderful, the understanding of trauma. And then you've got Gabor Mate.
Augustine:Mhmm. We love Gabor Mate, don't we?
Suzanne:He is in That's a gem. And as a physician, hooking what happened in World War 2 and Nazi occupation Mhmm. Poland, 2 lifelong trauma and the trauma of boys and men and the vulnerability of boys and the light goes on, and people are beginning to understand that we are dealing with cultural trauma. We are dealing with not just familial, but intergenerational. We are dealing with the results of Native Americans and indigenous peoples all over the world being colonized and and tortured and denied their ability as children to speak their own language and sing native songs and do rituals.
Suzanne:We're now learning what that really has done. Now, the piece that hasn't happened yet, although the evidence is there from people like Alice Miller, the psychiatrist from, Switzerland or Austria who wrote for your own good and shall not be aware and and went into, just studying the childhood of dictators and people like Hitler. What hasn't really come to the fore is that people like Donald Trump, Putin, Kim Jong, Yung, I mean, all of these dictator people around the world were once babies, and they are suffering from still today, severe early trauma, severe maternal attachment disorder. If you look at what Trump's father was like, and the fact that his mother was completely non existent in caretaking for him, and you look at Putin and you look at Netanyahu, whose father was absolutely paranoid, and he raised a paranoid son, paranoid about Palestinians. We're talking about mostly men, not all men, but there are some women too, because they've been raised the same way, who are suffering from early, early attachment disorders.
Suzanne:And that usually occurs around birth and in the 1st year of life, but it can happen in the womb. It can happen when a baby is getting constant toxic hormones, as it is growing in the womb and it starts preconception. So we're beginning to understand that what happens to fathers and the sperm that the fathers are carrying in the weeks before they can see a baby can be incredibly important because it can alter the genetic makeup of that baby, not the actual genes, but how they rest themselves. It's not
Augustine:the genetics. Yeah.
Suzanne:It's not just the, the ovaries and the eggs. It's now the sperm that in the weeks prior to conception, our genetic makeup can be altered such that certain genes are turned on and express themselves and certain genes are turned off. So you can have something like schizophrenia that passes down through generations, but only shows up in a grandmother and then a great niece and then skips 2 generations, depending on what the environment was when the egg and the sperm were getting ready to meet up or in utero or at birth or in the 1st months afterwards. So science is showing us why we need the midwife model of care.
Augustine:Isn't that It's it's so brilliant, and I just can't even imagine what's gonna happen over the next 50 years of this, trying to implement this model?
Suzanne:This is why I stay in it. It's because it's been a constant evolution of growth for me, understanding trauma, my trauma, my family's trauma, my Ukrainian and Irish grandmother's traumas, and the beginning to learn the science of epigenetics and the science of brain development. And it's like, is there anything more important? I don't think so because this is the foundation upon which society grows. The foundation that is how that child's brain and psyche are hardwired.
Suzanne:And we're now understanding that, the human heart is made up of at least 60% neural cells, brain cells. That what the indigenous people have acted out and spoken of for eons. When asked if they're thinking, they they smack their heart. They understand the heart thinks. So we're we're beginning to pull together modern science and ancient indigenous wisdom, which is by and large intuitive, feminine, wisdom.
Suzanne:I mean, is that not cool? What else could I be doing?
Augustine:You are so cool, Suzanne. I'm so sad that we missed you in Denver. Really grateful and, wanted to honor you. If people don't know, you received our 2nd annual midwifery wisdom award, which is, given to someone who is not a midwife themselves, but has advocated tirelessly for the midwifery model of care. And I can't think of anyone more, apt for that description.
Augustine:So a big thank you again for that.
Suzanne:I told you were assistant or associate, but I'd be happy to speak at this next, online conference if you want since I was unable
Augustine:be extraordinary. We would we would we welcome you with open arms. Thank you so much. What is your current project? What are you working on right now?
Suzanne:Cool. Well, I finished a very long 9 part series that I didn't intend to have be long on abortion. And this was just before Roe v Wade. I didn't realize abortion was also my issue. Although, I'd had an early abortion, although my mother had had an abortion, although all the women in my fam I mean, you know, I it just fired me up.
Suzanne:And so I finished that, and I'm now back working on a 100 page piece on birth that I put aside about 4 years ago. Sometimes I put things on the back burner because I don't know what to do with them. And I you know, it's is it a book? Is it just go out on button down, which is the, forum that I put things out on instead of subs substack because they offer a lot more personal support to someone who's not very computer savvy. Anyway, so I'm working on this.
Suzanne:And and I also have a vision I am starting, and it's twofold. 1st is the is is a model. It's for Boulder County, the County where I live in Boulder, which is north of Denver, Colorado, and to start a sacred circle. I've done sacred circles around the world at different conferences, but this is to start a sacred circle of people who ought to be interested in midwifery and birth and this whole period of time. And that just doesn't include midwives and birth educators and doulas and breastfeeding advocates.
Suzanne:But it, it, it, it will include social workers, therapists, trauma therapists, and people who are working in schools with teenagers, especially boys who are self harming Because so much of what's going on with self harm has to do with the primal period and how the brain was wired. And, that feeling of helplessness that so many babies come into the world already getting in the world. It doesn't matter what I do. I won't get my needs met. And that's why among 10 to 15 year olds, the new research shows that suicide is the highest cause of death.
Suzanne:So I wanna have them hear from midwives and but it will be, a nurturing group of deep listening and support for our own personal growth and our own personal work, not a dialogue. And then every month or so, I or have someone else come and do a Zoom call and other people can be on the calls. The the sacred service will be for women only, but the people who can be on the calls are men too. It's just that women behave differently when they're men in a group. So that's a model I wanna start.
Suzanne:I've been hosting facilitating a call for the Alliance for transforming the lives of children for almost 10 years. And it is a rich call and it people from Australia and New Zealand and South Africa and the US and, and it's made so much difference in their personal lives and their work lives. So my real big vision is that in a few years, once I get enough support to make this happen, I will host create a residential training retreat on some gorgeous lake in Northern Italy, just my favorite place, for 15 to 20 women, maybe 1 or 2 infants in arms who are nursing, who are not yet crawling, who can really be cared for by the group. And 5 teachers present and 5 teachers on zoom. And I've already selected the teachers and, it will be 6 days 7 nights of deep connection to each other.
Suzanne:And there will be about 20 to 60 other people, men, as well as women coming on the call, say 4 to 6 hours a day at times that are conducive to whatever time zone they're in and be participants at that in that way. And they'll pay much less to do that. And these people will form the cadre of a community of agents of change around the world when they go back into their own communities and have regular calls and support for what each other is doing, because this kind of work being a social activist, really doesn't you can't do it alone. And it it's so lonely, and it's so distressing. And at this training, there will be part of one day just to be doing grief work on the fact that we are grieving.
Suzanne:Those of us who are trying to make a difference, we are grieving how hard it is and how painful it is and how long we've been doing it and nothing is does seem seems to be happening, although things are changing. So that's gonna happen in the unusual piece about it because money is a big deal for people is that I'm going to require that those who want to be part of this, because they will be selected from their invitations that applications. Those who want to be part of this have to create a group of 4 or more people who are supporting them financially to go to the training.
Augustine:Wow. What a brilliant idea.
Suzanne:Because they yeah. They're doing the work of going, and they need people around them who honor them to pay their way, and then they will be beholden to those people when they go home to share what they learn. And that's the beginning of their outreach community. Doesn't that sound cool? Brilliant.
Suzanne:Totally brilliant. So often I've been at conferences where there's just maybe half the room is is conference junkies. They love conferences. They do nothing with what they learn. But they have the money to go to conferences, and so they go Yeah.
Suzanne:I don't want these activists, would be activists, retired midwives, whatever. I don't want them to pay. They're paying with their time and their energy and their commitment. Right. I want them to have done the hard work of asking for help so that they
Augustine:So many layers. The layers of support, folks at the wheel into the community, the retraining, how we interact. This is brilliant, Suzanne.
Suzanne:Well, that's that's what You see, I'm not meant to be a midwife. I'm not meant to sit at a labor for 38:6 hours. I am meant to be a visionary and to connect people, and I've met all these amazing people around the world, midwives and others, and I want their wisdom out there in the world. And I think that's where I do my best, my best work. And my biggest challenge is I have to deal with, bipolar emotional swings that I've been dealing with all my adult life may work with naturally and with lots of therapy and yoga and exercise and swimming and it's but I can never count on how I'm gonna feel at a particular time.
Suzanne:So I have to make sure I have enough support doing this and not just making it happen, but actually there with an assistant to help me. So that as my friend Robin Grill said, in Australia, Suzanne, you just need to be free of all responsibility except walking into the room and teaching, which I've never done. When I put on events, it's always been me doing it by, you know, hanging on by my fingernails and pulling
Augustine:I support this paradigm shift a 100%. I do. 100%. And and and in a lot of ways, I would say that trickles into midwifery too because I want you know, I teach big business classes about running a good free practice. And I say, you know, actually, you get paid the big bucks to be a midwife, not an administrator, not a bookkeeper, not a biller.
Augustine:And actually, you need layers of support to help you do all of these things. So I'm in complete agreement. I think this is true. Right? Well done
Suzanne:you. Midwives need the same kind of protection and support the childbearing women and men need.
Augustine:Yes. So at memory free wisdom, we midwife to midwife. So I love this, synchronicity and this flow. I've had such an amazing time talking to you. Where can people follow you on social media or online website?
Augustine:Where should we send them?
Suzanne:Well, first of all, I have a beautiful website with lots of information, although I haven't put the information piece on it yet. And it's called birthing the future.org, birthing the future. And we have posters and bookmarks, and I have a lot of films. I'm going to be putting 12 of them, and I'm gonna be putting them up on YouTube on a channel because we've done them on Vimeo Vimeo and it requires they're very cheap, like $6 to be able to see it as often as you want. Nobody can figure out the directions.
Suzanne:They are used to just pressing one button and then they get to see it, and they have to do a couple of things. So the Vimeo thing didn't work. So I have to find somebody who understands technology. It can transfer these 12 educational films, including giving birth to a channel on YouTube.
Augustine:Can I offer offer my team? I have an entire web and audio visual team. Can I offer those services to you? Can you what, hon?
Suzanne:Can I offer those services to you?
Augustine:Yeah. I would absolutely love it because I
Suzanne:and I can even raise money to pay you for doing it.
Augustine:I paid them already. I have an audio visual web team, and they do all of that technical work. Really? And they're yeah. They're here in India.
Augustine:So I can make that happen for you, friend. Okay.
Suzanne:So the answer is yes. Yes. Yes. I'd be honored. I'd be thrilled to meet you.
Suzanne:Same.
Augustine:More people accessing your wisdom is what it's all about. Suzanne, thank you so much. And and you can
Suzanne:I am overjoyed? People can write me. And I
Augustine:Oh, yes. Tell us how.
Suzanne:I do
Augustine:Through the website?
Suzanne:No. Probably suzanne birthing@gmail.
Augustine:Alright. We'll put that up in the show notes as well. Thank you.
Suzanne:And people can also use me to in terms of 1 on 1 support or counseling. I offer a sliding scale, 60 to $90 an hour, and I do it by phone or Zoom, and I love talking with people. So if if I can be of service to individuals or to say a group of midwives in a particular town, I I I'm honored. I'm not doing a lot of traveling right now because I'm 80 and, much as I love to travel, it's harder on me. So but I do.
Suzanne:I do travel and it's just I love Zoom calls because they I can
Augustine:Yeah.
Suzanne:I can create an intimate space even if it's just through an electronic visual.
Augustine:One of the brilliant, situations of the pandemic is we learned how to zoom it together. Well, Suzanne, thank you so much again. This, podcast will be published shortly, and I can't wait to share it with you so you can share it with your community. Thank you. Thank you.
Augustine:Thank you. Please take good care of yourself.
Suzanne:Thank you for all the work you're doing and for talking with me after having not just a birth last night, but an emergency to deal with just a few minutes ago.
Augustine:Bless you. My true honor. Thank you. Thank you. Ciao.
Augustine:Bye,
Suzanne:Chen. Ciao, Bella.