3. Engagement: Moving Beyond Compliance Mindset

What is Learner Agency?

Discussions around the importance of Learner Agency in the educational process.

Beth Strike (00:07):
Hello and welcome everyone to this Central Rivers, AEA Learning on Demand Podcast. I'm Beth Strike and I'm the director of creative services and communications. I'm here today to talk with Jen Sigrist director of education services and a leading expert on future ready practices in the state, if not the nation really. Welcome, Jen.

Jen Sigrist (00:28):
Thanks, Beth. Great to be here.

Beth Strike (00:30):
Today we're going to talk about learner engagement and going beyond compliance. We're really going to talk about a student mindset. So Jen, let's talk here a minute. I mean, don't we want kids to be compliant?

Jen Sigrist (00:42):
Oh, sure. There are always times where compliance is important. I mean, when we think about an emergency and calling 911, you don't want someone to be debating that, it's absolutely a, "You, call 911." "Oh, I need to do that." And same with some orders in the military, I suppose it would be very similar. There are some things that you don't debate and a compliant behavior can be important, so that's certainly what we want in crisis and emergency situations and for safety. But when we're thinking about learning and... that's really what I'm excited to get to today with you, Beth, is this idea of having a compliance mindset, just not fitting with a learning environment.

Beth Strike (01:30):
Okay. So say more about that. When I think about when I was a student, I really just wanted to... it was almost like I wanted to perform. I wanted to meet whatever requirements the teacher would put in front of me, and so it wasn't so much about the learning. It was about meeting targets or performing for adults, or... I mean, of course I wasn't always like that. My teachers would beg to differ. But tell me how this is different, really.

Jen Sigrist (01:54):
Well, when we respond to someone and, in that compliant mindset where I'm only doing something, because you say, we do that because we want to give them what they want. And then we hear things like, "Well, will this be on the test?" Or, "How many points is it worth?" We're trying to figure out when we're just following directions, what we get out of it. It's a, "Do this." What will be the outcome? So again, back to that emergency situation, "You, call 911. Yes, we need help." These are just very black and white kinds of responses and a compliant thinking. But when we think about this learning experience that we're trying to create for kids where they're having this ownership of their learning, a compliance mindset isn't going to get us the results that we want. To really have kids be engaged in learning, they have to be more autonomous in their thinking, more... moving past compliance into that commitment, connection and intrinsic motivation to the learning process. That's where engagement really happens for them.

Beth Strike (03:05):
Okay, so that's really important because otherwise they're not... I mean, they sort of lose out on the passion for learning and it doesn't lead to more inquisitive thinking and all of that. And the curiosity isn't there, if they're really just meeting compliance targets, if you will.

Jen Sigrist (03:22):
And I'm going to forget it, I'm likely memorizing it. If I'm doing it for compliance, I'm likely memorizing it, checking the box. And then as soon as that box is checked, it's out the other end, we forget it.

Beth Strike (03:34):
We've all had classes like that, I'm sure. So how do we do this? How can we engage kids? And, and how can we help them to shift their mindset?

Jen Sigrist (03:43):
There're some practices that we can use as teachers to really help students move their mindset to a more... making connections and really being more intrinsic about their engagement. First, I would say, as educators, if we can really make clear the intended outcomes, where we're going to end up in this learning journey, our intentions, that's a huge step in helping kids move beyond compliance. And that may not be evident right up front. But if you think about it, if I can tell you, or I can hook you as a student into this learning, like, "Here's where we're going. This is why." Then I can process that as a learner and be like, "Okay, now I know what I need to make connections to. Now I know what I need to listen for." Where if I'm just saying, "We're going to go here and then we're going to go here."
And I'm taking you to all the stops along the way, and you don't know where our end outcome is, you're just fall following along. You're riding in the car, you're getting out at the convenience store when your parents tell you to. You don't understand where you're going in the journey. So one of the very first things... and we've said this in other series in this podcast about student agency, that one of the first things we can do is really make clear to the students what the learning outcomes are for the unit, the lesson.

Beth Strike (05:03):
And do you think this is a hard shift for kids to make?

Jen Sigrist (05:06):
I do think it takes practice, yes. Because it's easier... if we're just checking something off and moving on, that's easier when you ask me to really grapple with something that takes more thinking. But if it's something that I'm interested in and I see the connections, not only am I going to do that, I'm going to remember it better, I'm going to be more engaged in it. And the more engaged I am in learning, the more we're going to see that better outcome for students.

Beth Strike (05:35):
So learning would look a lot different if that's how we approached it, for sure. So, providing opportunities for kids to explore, for them to make connections. If you were thinking about some advice for a teacher to start this, really making this shift in the classroom, and I know we're going to get into that into a future podcast. So today is a little bit more about the student's mindset, but we also have to really think about shifting the mindset of the teacher as well, which we'll get into. So what other advice would you give to teachers for doing this?

Jen Sigrist (06:08):
Beth, you kind of hit on it right there. Providing opportunities to explore. So often as an educator, we want to pack every day full of all the things I'm going to have kids do. And so shifting that a little as a teacher to provide opportunities for kids to explore topics, it could be anything as a starting point. It might be, "Okay, we're about to delve into this chapter in the textbook." This is reality. We have textbooks in lots of situations. Giving them a chance to explore it first, to see what catches their eyes. Maybe it's the pictures, but maybe it's something that you weren't planning on going in depth with, but they really latched onto it for whatever reason. That exploration can help with classroom discussions later on, can provide some richness in their work that if you were giving them all of the information they might not have had, so that opportunity explore could look like that.
That, just time for the textbook all the way to, "Hey, here's a database. I trust this database." The AEA provides lots of those resources where, it can be trusted. Explore anything related to this topic. If this is where we're going in that learning journey... that first recommendation I had about making that learning outcome clear, "I'm going to give you 20 minutes, go explore. What connections can you make? What can you find? And just share. Just share that excitement." "I found something about this." How often have we done that as an adult, where we're on one place and we click and then we click again and again-

Beth Strike (07:42):
That's the best. Don't they call that flow? When you're in the midst of something and you lose track of time and it just... your curiosity just takes you away.

Jen Sigrist (07:49):
"Where did I even start?" Absolutely. Well, building that into your classroom, that can be a great way to really enrich your conversations, get kids excited about something and make connections with your intended learning outcome that they might not have made otherwise. The other piece that I would add is maybe moving to that inquiry-based approach. So often we think kids just understand how to ask questions. And one of the first things to do in an query based-approach is really teach students how to ask thoughtful questions. Those ones are like, "Why? What?" No, not those. Going deeper than that, and really expanding on their questioning skills. We just kind of assume that they have it, but that's a learned skill. That's a learned skill to be able to be... as I'm exploring, what do I wonder about and what question would I want to answer by exploring this more?
So, if I looked back at those three recommendations, you're making it clear where you're going to go, you're giving them time to do some exploration along the way, not just at the beginning, but even throughout the learning experience. And then you're teaching them to ask good questions. Well, those are all engaging. I mean, I'm feeling engaged just even thinking about that. If I can ask good questions and have this opportunity to explore the answers, knowing that I still have the support of the teacher to get there, I'm going to be more engaged. And my mindset is shifting from, "I'm doing it because you told me so," to, "I'm doing it because I'm interested in it. I'm making connections. And I'm feeling that flow," that you just talked about earlier, Beth.

Beth Strike (09:30):
It sounds so freeing. And it also sounds, I have to tell you, like a lot less work for the teacher in a sense. Once you've got your targets very clear, the student is doing the heavy lifting, they're doing the exploring and the learning and the teacher is there more as a guide versus providing all the content and keeping the focus very narrow, so...

Jen Sigrist (09:50):
Right. Freeing that teacher up to not feel like they have to have all the answers. I mean, honestly with the internet, there's no way for them to compete with the amount of information. But what is a teacher? A great connector. Someone you can trust for next step, someone that can say, "Hey, that doesn't look like a reliable source. Let's dig into that more." They don't have to be the know-it-all that we felt like we had to be before we had such information at our fingertips.

Beth Strike (10:18):
I love it. Anything else you want to add?

Jen Sigrist (10:20):
Well, I think there's some language, Beth, that I would recommend for teachers to consider. Maybe getting rid of a few things from their speech or using this a far less often. If we stopped using things like, "You'll need to know this for the test." When students ask, "Why do I need...?" "Oh, it'll be on the test." That generates a compliance kind of response from a student's thoughts. So removing that language to something that might be more like, "Well, what would you want to do with this next? How could we use this? Why would we want to know how these people responded to this? What could we do with that information? How does it apply to today?"
And this is one I'm guilty as a parent, "Because I said so." Totally language that works for compliance thinking. So if you're telling them to do the dishes that might work, but if you want them to learn and really be engaged in this deeper process, using more phrases, like, "Well, what did you find interesting? Or, "How did you connect to that situation?" Those would help just broaden the thinking and mindset of the student to move beyond, "Because you told me to" compliant thinking to deeper, really more engaged opportunities for learning.

Beth Strike (11:40):
Love it. This has been great, Jen. Thank you.

Jen Sigrist (11:42):
Thanks Beth.

Beth Strike (11:44):
All right. I know we're definitely going to focus a little bit more in our next podcast on how do you build this into your instruction? So we'll take a deeper dive into that and ownership of learning. But for now, this has been another Learning on Demand Podcast.