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Stories, interviews, history, and more from the Catholic Diocese of Paisley, Scotland. New episodes published monthly.
Welcome listeners to another episode of our podcast where we delve into the rich tapestry of faith and exploration. Today, our journey takes us along the sacred path of pilgrimage. This year's theme for Catholic Education Week was pilgrims of faith, which has inspired us to explore one of the world's most iconic and spiritually significant journeys, the Camino de Santiago, also known as the Way of Saint James. Steeped in history dating back a millennium to the discovery of Saint James' relics in the north of Spain, the Camino has drawn Christians from every corner of the globe in pilgrimage. So joining us today is a very special guest, Stephen Jordan, an esteemed RE and English teacher at Saint Luke's High School, Barhead.
Catherine Deighan:Stephen has embarked on the Camino multiple times alongside fellow pilgrims from the Paisley Diocese. So together, we'll unravel the profound connection that the people of the Paisley Diocese share with the Camino, as well as exploring the modern day relevance of pilgrimages in 2023. And finally, we'll discuss what it's like to spend a day on the Camino de Santiago, both as experienced communal walkers. So without further ado, over to Steven.
Catherine Deighan:So hi, Steven. Welcome to our podcast. Thank you for joining me today. It's a pleasure to have you.
Stephen Jordan:Thanks, Catherine.
Catherine Deighan:So getting on to our questions. My first question is what would
Catherine Deighan:be a connection that people of
Catherine Deighan:the Paisley diocese would have to the Camino de Santiago?
Stephen Jordan:Well, the obvious thing is that we well, but we're not that far from Saint James's interchange, which I didn't always know this by a little bit, a few years back that that's called Saint James Inter Change because it's a place of departure on pilgrimage. You can walk all the way down through the UK and take a boat to join the English camino, which I imagine people in the middle ages would have done. Yeah. In fact, I I think that not that long ago, we were talking about Catholic education. And a lot of the young people came from the schools to the Abbey, which of course is ancient.
Stephen Jordan:Yep. And they traveled from there. They walked down to the well, they had a tour of the Abbey first and then they walked down to Saint Martin's and we had a mass. And I remember Bishop John talking about how there used to be a sign on the monastery. It was a picture for the pilgrims.
Stephen Jordan:I can't remember what it said, but it was something like, you know, say, a Hail Mary, those who pass here for us. So if you go into the Abbey nowadays and ask around, no one will know
Catherine Deighan:I don't know.
Stephen Jordan:What you're talking about. But I'm sure so there is this connection with people leaving from Paisley on pilgrimage to the Camino of Santiago.
Catherine Deighan:Yeah. Which I don't think a lot of people know about No. Actually.
Stephen Jordan:No. I I don't think you do. And it it made so much sense when they talked about Saint James. The Paisley diocese has various kinds of symbols. And if you see the picture of the icon of Our Lady of Paisley, which is only a few years old.
Stephen Jordan:The shape of her skirt is supposed to be like the shell that represents Santiago. I remember when we were doing diocese and youth work, our logo had a shell on it Mhmm. Representing Saint James. So he's one of our patrons.
Catherine Deighan:So, yeah, a lot of really great connections there that maybe a lot people in our diocese wouldn't know about. So it's something that now people know. Hopefully, they'll start to watch out for. Yep. Moving on, I want to to talk about how pilgrims and pilgrimages are relevant to 2023.
Catherine Deighan:I think people have an idea of pilgrims being a thing of the past and not present. So how can we stay with the times? How why why is it important to
Stephen Jordan:Yeah. Continue our process? It's funny because it's more popular now than it has been for centuries to walk in the Camino de Santiago. And I think that's because there's a lot of secular organizations doing it as well. So you walk along it now and well, I I got to a place called San Juan Dortega.
Stephen Jordan:It's a beautiful place in the mountains just outside of Burgos. And you can tell, like, there's there's been so much history there of people walking through the old priesthood who's no longer there. I think both he and another older priest from further down the Camino. They were kind of early instigators. In fact, it was their youth group who painted all the yellow lines, all the yellow
Catherine Deighan:arrows. Amazing.
Stephen Jordan:I know it I met I actually met when I was there, I met a woman. She was just captivated by it all. And I asked her if this was her first time. She said, oh, no. I've done it lots of times.
Stephen Jordan:In fact, my husband was one of the ones who painted those arrows. And so yeah. It's it's clear that in a lot of ways, it's changed the nature of it. It's no longer filled with Catholics, but it's filled with humans. It's filled with people who are on a journey.
Stephen Jordan:And I actually think a pilgrimage is a fantastic metaphor, you know, an English teacher. Come on. It's it's a great metaphor no matter what you're doing in life. If you're walk if you're going through life, if you're going through university or a course, You have ups and downs. You have good times when you can see clearly the path ahead of you and other times when you, you know, are struggling.
Catherine Deighan:Mhmm.
Stephen Jordan:And I think that's a great metaphor for it for life. But for me, personally, I love doing the Camino straight away. It appealed to me and I love doing it for two reasons. 1 is, like, social and one's more spiritual. And when I say social, I don't mean just, you know, it was a great laugh and we're with pals.
Stephen Jordan:Yeah. Although, it was a chance to meet up with a good friend of mine from way back when we were at university together. But there's a sense in which you're following in footsteps of people who have gone before you. So for me, my dad walked the Camino over a couple of years after he retired. And in a very real sense, I was following what he had done.
Stephen Jordan:I remember his stories. And as I come over the Pyrenees mountains into the chapel, it's one of the first places you come to. I was there for night prayer and then they sang the Salve Regina. And suddenly, I'm kind of taken back to these memories of prayers that my dad and mom taught me years earlier. And I think in a very real sense, I'm following in his footsteps.
Stephen Jordan:And I know not everybody has that, but there's also centuries of other people who have done it before us. John Paul the second, I think it might have been the very first World Youth Day, Called all the young people to Santiago, the Compostela. And he was he himself walked some of the the Camino. And yeah. Which is
Catherine Deighan:really incredible to think you're really following in the footsteps of of saints.
Stephen Jordan:Yeah. Yeah. Very literally. I think for us, imagine in Saint James being there. It's one of these kind of Catholic stories that you think we're all told, but we're all kinda wee bit.
Stephen Jordan:Did what? Really? Did he take the the the fairy well, anyway, you well, maybe that. I'm not who am I to say, but John Paul Sainte was definitely there.
Catherine Deighan:He was there.
Stephen Jordan:And he's one of our 20th century saints.
Catherine Deighan:He's brought a lot of young people to it. Lots of people in the diocese, her younger ones Yeah. Followed coming up. Yeah.
Stephen Jordan:I know. It's there's something really powerful about following the footsteps of people. There's a real social element to it. I also think there's a spiritual element to see because I think one of the things that we see in our society just now is a great confusion. And I don't know if this is a relevant analogy, but I remember learning that if a contract is misleading
Catherine Deighan:Uh-huh.
Stephen Jordan:Then the contract is not valid. Okay. But if the contract is even confusing, it's not valid. And see if you look around our society. I mean, things are at best confusing.
Stephen Jordan:Something like the Camino is a chance to just clear through all that, cut across it.
Catherine Deighan:That's very apparent when you're on the Camino. I've walked part of it myself. But it's very apparent the people you meet for whatever reason, whatever walk of life, everyone's looking for that same thing.
Stephen Jordan:Yeah.
Catherine Deighan:Peace and quiet and
Stephen Jordan:Yeah. In in some way to cut across the chaos of their life. Who was it said I read somewhere that just, mercy is entering into someone else's chaos. And I quite like that phrase because the the idea of everybody's got this experience of chaos. Chaos.
Stephen Jordan:And actually, it it's a very spiritual deal. I've been studying some scriptural, some bible things recently. And the very first chapter of the bible talks about the chaos waters and God's spirit of God's hovering over
Catherine Deighan:it.
Stephen Jordan:Yeah. And saying let there be light and just kind of cutting through all of it.
Catherine Deighan:That light was so good.
Stephen Jordan:Yeah. It
Catherine Deighan:really was. Okay. Well, that's great. Really, really interesting points that we touched on there. I think a lot of people haven't walked the Camino, and they know what it is.
Catherine Deighan:But on a more real sense and a more fun sense, as someone who has walked the Camino so many times, tell us the day in the life, what what can you expect? What's it like? Who are you meeting? What are you eating? Tell us tell us, from an expert.
Stephen Jordan:Well, start early. Yeah. I It's
Catherine Deighan:still dark.
Stephen Jordan:I know. Well, I mean, depends when you go. Like, I was there in August this year, and it's hot in the midday, you know. It's hot from 1, 2 o'clock on. It's very, very hot.
Stephen Jordan:And you expect it to cool down, and it doesn't. And so that's the first thing you do. You start as early as you can. I I remember my first place I was staying this year. The women asked me when I was starting, and I said 8 o'clock.
Stephen Jordan:And she kinda looked at me as if, are you sure? So these tend to start, like, 7. If you want a long lie
Catherine Deighan:Forget it.
Stephen Jordan:Yeah. It's you've got stops along the way. You know, there's certain times that you know usually, a a stage in the Camino is about between 24 and 29 kilometers or something.
Catherine Deighan:Yep. And
Stephen Jordan:that is actually I mean, you probably think about that and you think, oh, it's not too bad. But you've got a backpack. You can up and down hill. You you oh, normally, you can see on the map what where the hills are and off you go. So I would tend to aim for the first time I would stop at for breakfast would be as far along the road as I could possibly make it.
Stephen Jordan:So between 5 10 kilometers, you would want to get. And the nice thing is you stop there and you might see some others that you saw the night before. You've met a couple of, you know, couple of stops back. And you might just catch up with him for a while, have a coffee with him, chat. And these might be people like, I've done it with friends, and that's really nice.
Stephen Jordan:You know, you'd meet up with them. You catch up with your friends again. But I've also done it on my own. And that's also nice because you you you start to to make friends and and build relationships. I met an older couple this year who were from Australia, and they must walk thousands of kilometers in a year because they they were telling me where they've been.
Stephen Jordan:You know? So in in a day, you might meet lots of people. But I don't know what you think, but then the second half of the day kind of drags on, and it's hard to you start to feel tired.
Catherine Deighan:We had a lot of singing on our trail because there was an Italian youth group who were walking it behind us. Yeah. And when it hit that kind of midday mark, they would be singing ciao Bella, which actually was great. They were really, really uplifting. That's what I needed on my route.
Stephen Jordan:You need something. I think when when it gets tired and you need something to keep you going, I I had a particular podcast that I liked last night. It only lasted for about an hour, but I knew it would keep me going for
Catherine Deighan:Yeah.
Stephen Jordan:A good chunk of a chunk of time. But it the people like, the groups like that are amazing because you do meet a lot of them. We met a whole it was amazing actually. We met a whole group of young people from Madrid. And I think there were some connected with Opus Dei.
Stephen Jordan:But we one of one of our groups started chatting to one of them, and he was like, oh, I've just finished studying in Saint Andrews. And so he had all this kind of Scottish chat. So he's just gives random chance encounters that are never really random in chance encounters, you know.
Catherine Deighan:Yeah. 100%.
Stephen Jordan:There's a bit of inspiration there. But And
Catherine Deighan:talk about getting in to the town at night and the pilgrims menu. That's something people don't really know.
Stephen Jordan:Yeah. Do you know what? I tend to miss the pilgrims. I don't know why, but I think when there's a few times when you get into the town, you're there. You're it's sort of hopefully, you're there by it depends how you walk, but I would tend to get there for 2 o'clock.
Stephen Jordan:Or if I was taking my time, like, there's one time we passed this beautiful waterfall. And so we spent some time there and
Catherine Deighan:just
Stephen Jordan:just 4 o'clock the time we got to the town. And then along the the way there, most of the people in the town, most of the kind of restaurants in the town offer a Pilgrim's menu, which is like, you know, a little carafe of wine and
Catherine Deighan:Yeah. So for those who don't know, the pilgrims menu as when you arrive in the town, the people who live there throughout the year, that's their main business is the pilgrims passing through. So they offer usually a 3 course meal and a bottle of wine for £10 maybe.
Stephen Jordan:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not too bad.
Catherine Deighan:Pilgrims gather around in kind of squares or plazas and everyone sits together. And it's it's quite nice because a lot of people still have their walking things on. They've not even made it to the Albergue at night where you sleep in the big dorm rooms and that's that was for me the highlight.
Stephen Jordan:Yeah. No. I know what you mean. It was fantastic. It's lovely to see the people then that you've you sort of exchange glances.
Stephen Jordan:It there's sort of a process that first you're sort of you notice people and then you maybe exchange glasses because they've noticed you. Yeah. And then the 3rd day, you'll chat to them. And then by, you know, the 5th day, your best pals is sort of what I mean.
Catherine Deighan:That's a really nice part of it as well. Actually, you feel quite familiar with your group. And then Yeah. Even when you come into Santiago, you're looking around and you're hoping everyone's made it. And they're all as is what they hoped it would be.
Stephen Jordan:Yeah. Yeah. No. It is lovely.
Catherine Deighan:And what's that final moment like when you come into Santiago?
Stephen Jordan:Well, I am not convinced that I've experienced that yet fully. Okay. Because I've done the I've done a 5 day pilgrimage from, Vigo up to Santiago. Yeah. And that was lovely.
Stephen Jordan:But I'm still I in my mind, I'm still on
Catherine Deighan:You're still on the journey.
Stephen Jordan:Which to me is quite good because it it does last, you know, last time.
Catherine Deighan:It does. Yeah.
Stephen Jordan:Having said that, Santiago's cathedral is spectacular. Yeah. And I think when you do walk up the the when you start walking through the archways and you start to come in and then you come around the front and then that main square and it's jam packed full of other people.
Catherine Deighan:I think it has to be one of the most exciting things I've ever done in terms
Catherine Deighan:of walking through those streets, and you're catching glimpses of the cathedral
Catherine Deighan:from certain angles, and you're thinking, is that it? Is that it? You're getting closer and closer.
Catherine Deighan:And then you're just there, and there's hundreds of people
Catherine Deighan:and everyone is out of breath. They've got their shoes off,
Stephen Jordan:Yeah.
Catherine Deighan:Drinking water.
Stephen Jordan:They're trying they're trying to take pictures where they can include the whole massive picture and the person, which is not possible unless you're a really good photographer.
Catherine Deighan:Oh, no. But it is, that's quite an incredible moment, of of the Camino, definitely.
Stephen Jordan:And then the the other thing that is not a daily thing. Well, in fact, it is a daily thing because you've got your passport Mhmm. And you collect stamps.
Catherine Deighan:Yeah. Where is your Compastella?
Stephen Jordan:We don't we didn't we didn't mention that. And and so as you go wherever you go, you you ask them if they've got a stamp. So every every place that you stay, every Albuquerque has got a stamp.
Catherine Deighan:Mhmm.
Stephen Jordan:But there's also these random little churches. Some of them are, like, from 9th century. I remember coming past one called Saint Rocks and texting my sister-in-law
Catherine Deighan:to tell
Stephen Jordan:her I was at Saint Rocks Church.
Catherine Deighan:Perfect.
Stephen Jordan:Because she plays for
Catherine Deighan:Saint Rocks music?
Stephen Jordan:Yeah. Shout out to
Catherine Deighan:St. Roch's.
Stephen Jordan:And then the yeah. That was from the 9th century.
Catherine Deighan:That's really incredible.
Stephen Jordan:Now they didn't have a stamp. It's a wee bit too old. But some of the more modern ones have these wee shrines or little places where you can get a wee stamp there. And so you end up with this kind of, it tells a story of your whole journey, all these different places that you've been, which I don't know who came up with that idea, but what a brilliant idea.
Catherine Deighan:It's brilliant.
Stephen Jordan:It is really, as I look back in mine and, you know, it's a bit like your own passport when you've
Catherine Deighan:Yeah.
Stephen Jordan:Before you hand it in after 10 years. Yeah. And you've got all these places that you've traveled. You can tell stories about them all. Yeah.
Catherine Deighan:So, I mean, it's been great to talk to you today and to just talk a bit more about the Camino de Santiago. Thank you very much for for your time. Any, last words you want to say to the people of the Philistines on the Camino?
Stephen Jordan:Do it.
Catherine Deighan:Do it. Yeah.
Stephen Jordan:I I think there's there's something really powerful about taking steps in the Bible. You know, Jesus that steps onto the water, the story water and Yes. Calms it or, the men on the road, they are the disciples, because since they're the men, but the disciples on the road to Emmaus Yes. When they start walking with Jesus. I I just the idea of just going for a walk and meeting the Lord is one of the things I look forward to the most
Catherine Deighan:Yeah.
Stephen Jordan:In my life.
Catherine Deighan:I think that's a nice way to look at it. So I hope that everyone listening, this has been somewhat of an inspiration. So thank you again for coming in.
Stephen Jordan:Thank you, Kathy.
Catherine Deighan:Buen Camino.
Stephen Jordan:Buen Camino.
Catherine Deighan:Anyone who doesn't know that is what you're gonna be saying to everyone you pass now that you've been inspired
Stephen Jordan:to walk
Catherine Deighan:the Camino. So buen Camino, and thank you again.
Stephen Jordan:Thanks, Catherine.