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Business is an unlikely hero: a force for good working to solve society's most pressing challenges, while boosting bottom line. This is social purpose at work. And it's a dynamic journey. Purpose 360 is a masterclass in unlocking the power of social purpose to ignite business and social impact. Host Carol Cone brings decades of social impact expertise and a 360-degree view of integrating social purpose into an organization into unfiltered conversations that illuminate today's big challenges and bigger ideas.
Carol Cone:
I'm Carol Cone and welcome to Purpose 360, the podcast that unlocks the power of purpose to ignite business and social impact. For over 200 episodes, we've been exploring, what is a responsible company? Well today, joining me is one of the world's most admired and most unorthodox examples of what a responsible company can be. Few organizations have shaped the role of business and society as deeply or as consistently as, you may have guessed it, Patagonia. And few voices have guided that evolution more than my guest today, Vincent Stanley, Patagonia's Director of Philosophy, one of its first employees and co-author along with Patagonia founder Yvon Chouinard, of the Responsible Company and the Future of the Responsible Company.
My conversation is inspired by reading this book. As Vincent writes, "We are guided by care for our people, communities, and the planet." Patagonia never set out to be a responsible company. Instead, it learned again and again by listening, by trialing, by confronting the harm it caused and choosing to do better. In our conversation, we'll explore the evolution, from the early days of Chouinard Equipment to becoming Patagonia, to the company's groundbreaking environmental commitments from the iconic, "Don't Buy This Jacket," the ad that ran in the New York Times on Black Friday that absolutely shook up the outdoor industry and other apparel manufacturers, to Patagonia's extensive activism and their extraordinary storytelling so often led by Vincent in the real voices of its employees, customers, and outdoor ambassadors.
And of course, I cannot finish our conversation without reflecting on the historic 2022 decision by founder Yvon Chouinard and his family to sell the company to the earth, stating that earth is now our only shareholder, created through two trusts that ensured Patagonia's purpose lived on in perpetuity, and an action that has already directed since 2022, over $180 million to environmental causes around the world. Vincent has spent decades helping shape, along with Yvon and their wonderful Patagonia employees and ambassadors, what a responsible company can be in its unending pursuit of improvement and its unwavering commitment to saving our home planet. So prepare for a conversation rich with insight, humility, candor, and hope. Welcome to the show, Vincent.
Vincent Stanley:
Thank you. Thanks very much for having me.
Carol Cone:
It is my absolute honor. Vincent is Patagonia's Director of Philosophy, and we're going to find out what that means. He's one of Patagonia's original employees. And I hope you don't mind to say that you are the nephew of Yvon Chouinard?
Vincent Stanley:
Absolutely, yes. Yeah.
Carol Cone:
And he was your hero, and also your mentor. Can you please share a little bit of background about your early life and how that contributed to being a poet and a philosopher?
Vincent Stanley:
Yeah. Well, I grew up in the Bay Area and I came of age in the late 1960s. I went to an experimental high school in the Santa Cruz Mountains and then helped run it. And I helped run a newsletter on alternative education, was an apprentice for a psychodrama therapist.
Carol Cone:
Oh, that's interesting.
Vincent Stanley:
And also, apprenticed as a film editor. And all of this stuff was possible, then it was a crazy world, so you could do any of this stuff without any kind of credentials or prior experience. But long about the winter of 1973, it was a serious recession. I ended up working at Al Vito's Pitstop Gas and Wash Number 2, detailing cars. Very few hours a week because it was raining. And my grandmother sent me a postcard saying, "I hear you're hard up. Why don't you ask your uncle for a job? I hear he pays his men $3 an hour."
Carol Cone:
Okay.
Vincent Stanley:
So as you mentioned, Yvon was a mythical figure to me as a child because he was so different from the rest of the family. This was the late 1950s, early 1960s. He's a teenager and then in his early 20s making climbing equipment in his parents' backyard, the first quasi grownup I ever saw walked barefoot in the rain. He and his friends would come to our house in San Francisco and sleep in the backyard in their sleeping bags on their way to or from Yosemite. And I think he was my mother's hero also. She respected him for living a simple life because of the number of nights he spent outdoors, and my hero because he was such an unusual person in the family.
And I loved the little blacksmith shop where he made the climbing gear, had a lot of regard for that. So I intended to work there for six months, save some money, get out of the hole. But that was also the year and it was about $300,000 in sales, strictly climbing gear. That was the year Yvon came up with the idea for Patagonia. We came up with the name. Kris Tompkins, who she was later Tompkins, Kris McDivitt then and I fought over what the logo should look like. Then eventually we placed the first orders for the first three products. So that's how I got into it.
And I was not a surfer, so I would actually be the last person left in the office when the waves were higher. I would answer the phones and take the dealer orders. So that's how I got to be sales manager, which I did for about 20 years in a couple of different stints.
Carol Cone:
Wow. So while they were surfing, you were writing because you love to write. And you have a title, Director of Philosophy. So I'm sure all of our listeners are like, what does that entail?
Vincent Stanley:
Well, the background of this is, for about the first 20 years of Patagonia, people think that we were a company with a purpose from the very beginning. And we were in the sense of, most people having a very strong connection to the natural world, spending time outdoors, being a mile from the road and being vulnerable to natural forces or feeling self-reliant. But when we became very successful in the late 1980s, we were growing very quickly, we also kind of lost our direction. And I think there was a point where we could have become a conventional company, probably a good company like others out there in the outdoor industry.
I think Yvon was looking around and saying, "Listen, I'm building a company that may look conventionally successful, but doesn't represent my values. It's not a place I want to come to work to every day." So he started to gather us about 30 at a time, and we'd go off on buses to places like Yosemite or Marin Headlands and sit around outside in a circle and hash out, how is it we want to do business? And we documented it, and we called them philosophies. So eight functional philosophies for design, production, sales, marketing, HR, general management, et cetera. And they became the central part of let my people go surfing. And Yvon taught philosophy classes for a while, for seminar style, 12 to 15 people. But he weaned himself away from that.
And so, when I was coming to the end of my functional responsibilities at Patagonia, I thought, you know what I'd like to do, is to teach the classes again, teach philosophy classes. And do it in the same way, but also cover everybody in the company. And so, that was the origin of that title. So I spent about a third of the time working with employees and about a third of the time with graduate students. I had a gig at Yale for 11 years between monthly seminar between the environmental and business schools, and the divinity school as well. So we get three different perspectives in our group that meets once a month in academic year.
Carol Cone:
Oh, that's lovely. And in the book, which again everyone should read, you state, "Humans are part of nature. And if we had no experience of it in its wild state, we would lose entirely our sense of human scale. We need to engage with the magnificence and mystery of the unknown to know ourselves and our place in the world." That was such a special ethos, which was the blood, the heart and soul of the company. Why that?
Vincent Stanley:
I think it's something that you learn from being in nature, and especially being in wild nature. I think that if we're going to create a way to live and thrive as human community and at the same time, have the rest of nature come along with us and not live on something that's becoming more and more like Mars, we really need to understand ourselves as a part of nature. Even the word environment is problematic because it implies that we're human beings and the environment is what's around us. When in fact we're located, we're a part of something much larger.
Carol Cone:
So towards that end, I want to ask you this question, if nature could talk, what would nature say about its current state?
Vincent Stanley:
Get cracking.
Carol Cone:
I love it. "Get cracking. Come on guys." Okay, I love that. That's great.
Vincent Stanley:
I think the fundamental shift for the company was when we changed from the old mission statement to we're in business to save our home planet. What happened was, the employees really took that to heart. So that's something that seemed so aspirational and so abstract at the time we adopted it because we weren't really doing anything to inspire anybody else.
Carol Cone:
And I'd like to say that when you buy a product, I'm into using every single piece of communication. There's a QR code on the back. I love it. And I have to tell you that the lovely recycled paper bag that the clothing came in, it's great. And there's a QR code there that tells you how to recycle it. But I have to tell you, my cats love playing with it.
Vincent Stanley:
And that's good. A good cat toy is just as important to save the home planet as anything.
Carol Cone:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So I love in the book, it said, "We did not set out to be a responsible company, but time after time, we stumbled into virtue after discovering we were causing harm." So can you talk a little bit about perhaps a couple of those finite pivot points? And I know there are many, but how you started becoming a responsible company?
Vincent Stanley:
We started to give 1% to environmental causes in 1985. And the idea was we were paying an earth tax because we knew that we caused environmental harm in the course of having clothes made in our name, but we didn't know what it was. So I think that one of the key things that set us on journey we've been on since, is the discovery in 1989 that cotton was a harmful fiber. And we opened up a store in Boston, the low VOC paints, the recycled wall board, all that.
Carol Cone:
I know exactly where that store was. Yeah, it was a big deal. Yeah.
Vincent Stanley:
And we had to close it down after three days because the employees were calling in sick. And we called in an environmental engineer. He fixed the problem with the ventilation. And said, "What was the agent that was causing people to have stomach aches?" He said, "Oh, that was formaldehyde off gassing from the cotton clothes stored in the basement." And in terms of stumbling into virtue, that led us to investigate the environmental impacts of the four major fibers we used. And it turned out that cotton was the worst. Half the line came out of an oil well, polyester, nylon, wool has its problems. But at the heart of the problem with cotton is the intensive use of chemicals to grow it.
And it was a very difficult process to take the line completely away from conventional cotton and to go organic in an 18-month period. But we resolved to do that. And it really opened our eyes to the nature of the apparel business. Because when we bought the organic cotton, we had to buy from farmers. And then we broke our connection to the global supply chain. It was a huge educational process for the company that when we finally were able to succeed, it also created a change in the culture of the company because it's just like if you're a runner, you want to improve your time. If you're a surfer, you want to surf a bigger wave.
Carol Cone:
And I love the story that when you took your employees out into the field and to the farm where natural cotton was grown, can you tell a little bit about it? Because you're so into the show and the tell and the experiential, which adds to the deep authenticity of Patagonia.
Vincent Stanley:
Yeah. Well, as we took employees and buses out to the Central Valley, and the employees were beside themselves. We took everybody eventually. But the designers and the production people were beside themselves because they had this huge task of finding an entire new infrastructure to grow organic cotton. And no customer had ever asked for it. So when we took them out on the buses, the first thing they noticed was the smell, is the chemicals that are... you don't even have to open the windows of the bus, it pervades the drive. If you get out of the bus and you put your hand in the soil, there's no life in it. It takes five years for the earthworms to come back. There are no weeds. It's basically dirt without life.
So that was critical. And it's a lesson I'm hearing it more from psychologists that you don't change anyone's mind, but what happens if people experience something, they can change their mind. And I think that's what happened with the influence.
Carol Cone:
No, that's a wonderful story. I'd like to pivot a bit to your role as a storyteller. Because whenever we're working with clients or speaking to colleagues, whatever, they're going, "Find the narrative, tell the story really well." Again, you're an OG. I'm going to say you're the OG storyteller." But everybody wants to know, what makes a great narrative? How do you find it? How do you tell it? What's the secret? What's the Vincent Stanley secret of being a fabulous storyteller?
Vincent Stanley:
I think that we were kind of blessed by coming out of the climbing world because just about the best narrative arc is stories of mountain climbing. You're going up the mountain. You encounter tremendous problems from the weather or challenges with the material you're working with. And then something happens, you either make it or you don't, and then you come back down. And climbers are great storytellers. And Yvon wrote the first catalogs. He's a fantastic storyteller. So it was handed to me on a silver platter to be able to work on the first catalogs. The other thing is, we never tried to persuade people through storytelling to believe something that we didn't believe. It was not a manipulative process.
And that also came about, I think because our earliest customers, we had three degrees of separation at most from friends, friends of friends, friends of friends of friends. I remember sitting in the yard on the concrete in the courtyard expecting ice axes for hairline fractures. And going, "If I fall asleep on the job, someone's going to get hurt. It's going to be someone I know or someone I know."
Carol Cone:
Wow. Really close.
Vincent Stanley:
So when we tell stories to people that we think we know or might come to know, it's very different from going to a focus group and saying, "Okay, what is the story that's going to be most persuasive?" So I think the authenticity was built in, not necessarily from the creativity of the stories, but from holding it pretty closely to the truth.
We did celebrate them, but we kept very close to what that function of that product was. What was its durability? Then later on as you see now, what are its limitations? So I think that combination, we were never afraid of having the writing be very good, but we were also not afraid of having the writing be reasonably true.
Carol Cone:
I love it. Reasonably true because you didn't seem scared for the honesty that perhaps it didn't function to the highest level. I love one of your gear testers who they're running. And it's 17 miles up to the top of the peak and it's beginning to pill. And in their voice, that's the other thing I thought was so powerful, in the voice of a real person. Not somebody in a studio or whatever, saying the truth. So, so, so powerful.
So you're an amazing storyteller. Now, we have to talk about Black Friday and "Don't buy this jacket." And so, at that point, I'm in the field 25 years already. I'm going like, "Hallelujah. Look at this. There's a company that truly believes in something." So I'd love for you to share the story of, how did that come about? Rumor has it, you had to go to the board five or six times, "Oh, my God, you're going to kill our business." Can you talk about that? And what was the response in the marketplace? Because to me, it was, "Go get them." But I bet a lot of people thought you were crazy.
Vincent Stanley:
Yeah. The origin, around 2005, we were following the work of William McDonough and the whole idea of cradle-to-cradle manufacturing. And so, we determined that we would go through a process where we could within five years, take back everything that we'd ever made at the end of its life and recycle it into something of equal value if we could, or recycle it in some way. And the lesson we learned from doing this, it was successful, we will take back anything. But the lesson we learned is, okay, that in the four Rs that recycle, there's a reason it comes last. That you should make a product that can be repaired, otherwise it's going to have a much shorter life.
Especially if you're in the apparel business, you should create platforms to recirculate it because closets are full of clothes that are no longer worn that could be. But the big question is, should the product have been made in the first place? And that's reduce. But reduce was a problem. How do you do that if you're trying to sell things?
So we used the very arresting headline, "Don't Buy This Jacket," which was something Doug Tompkins and Esprit had actually done in a pretty small magazine in the '80s. But we put it in the New York Times on Black Friday.
Carol Cone:
Right. On Black Friday, "Buy lots of stuff today, guys." Yeah.
Vincent Stanley:
Correct. And I think the first line of it was, "Today's Black Friday. It's the day retail goes from red to black." But what we did in the body copy is to take a product that we were very proud of environmentally. It was a jacket, 40% recycled content, which was the highest we could go at that time without sacrificing performance. But it would last 10 or 15 years. And at the end of its life, we could send it to Japan and have it melted down and extruded into new polyester fiber, that was without sacrificing performance.
Carol Cone:
I'm curious, what did other of your peer manufacturers say about that ad? Did they call up Yvon and say, "Hey, great," or, "Wow, you're crazy"?
Vincent Stanley:
No. Nobody said we were crazy. The board thought we might be crazy. They were worried. And there was also another objection, which is interesting. I think there's still one key board member who to this day says that she didn't like that ad because she thought it was hypocritical because we sold products. I didn't feel that way. And Rick Ridgeway, who's the other co-author of the piece, we thought the contrast between the headline and the body copy made the case that we were trying to make.
Carol Cone:
Yes, it certainly made a big impact. So I'd like to now do a pivot to some of the critical elements of your journey and your growth. And in your progress report, you say, "Quality is an environmental issue." So why is this so important for Patagonia? What does it look like? What does quality look like to you when you're really hitting the ball out of the ballpark?
Vincent Stanley:
It's interesting. And Let My People Go Surfing is a chapter on quality. And it doesn't say, "We do this, we do that." It starts with 19 questions. And the first is, does the product perform for its intended use? And the second question, is it durable? Does it last a long time? And then the third question, is it versatile? And versatility is not a universal attribute of our products because you're not going to wear fishing waders in the ski line. But I think for most of the products we make, what people know us for are the products that are versatile, the fleece jackets, the wind jackets, the rain gear.
So those are the essential attributes. And we do an environmental report card for each product that also includes its performance. But turning that around a little bit, we do consider the environmental and the social performance of a product as key to its quality. In our time, you can't say it's a high quality product if the labor that makes it is horribly treated and exploited, and working in bad conditions. And you can't consider it a quality product if the wastewater that comes out of the dye plant, dyes the Pearl River indigo, which is the things that happen. So it's kind of a three-part definition of quality, but we do think for our time that all of that has to be taken into account.
Carol Cone:
It's a core attribute and I love it. I'd love to pivot to how your employees felt about Fair Trade specifically. But also you say in the book, "No responsible company can function well without a lot of different people doing things they love to do in concert with one another. And that a special culture creates meaningful work." And so, I'm curious about the culture writ large in Patagonia, you're not just one location.
Vincent Stanley:
The culture is interesting because I think again, because we came out, we had all these athletes working for us, the climbers and surfers. It was the creation of that first mission statement. It was the putting together those eight functional philosophies. It was the publication of Let My People Go Surfing and the first book, The Responsible Company. But even with all that, with that definition, having those values written out very extensively, I think maybe 20 years ago, you would've found three different subcultures at Patagonia. You would have the go-getters, the the product people who have to stay 10 years ahead of the competition. And look out for their margins, keep their ear close to them, so the communities they're serving. Then there would be the tree huggers, the people who were giving the money away or working to reduce our environmental impact.
Then there would be the bean counters who are the green light shade guarding the treasure from the go-getters and the tree huggers. And no one ever won. So these three different subcultures had to learn to think like the other. And I think the company culture almost advanced. It grew almost by capillary action. And so, I think for the last 10 years or maybe the last 7 years, if I manage the Alpine line, products are climbing. I know that I still have the same requirements. I want to be 10 years ahead of the competition, but I also know if there's anything that's not in a Fair Trade factory, I've got to get it in there.
So there's been an evolution in business that makes it a little easier for us to do the kind of work we do. And an evolution within the company that makes it possible to do all of this work without really a sense of trade-off or compromise, or of integration. So when people say, "How do you balance profit versus purpose?" I say, "Well, the profit emerges from the purpose."
Carol Cone:
Exactly. And I love the way you talk in the book about people being together. And I love the fact that they all own the responsibilities. So you can't say it's his or her job. It's our job.
Vincent Stanley:
Yeah. And I tell you a story I love, the finance. We needed a second warehouse. We always had one warehouse in Reno and we needed something on the East Coast. We outgrew Reno. And so, we've got the finance people driving around Pennsylvania and Tennessee looking for a new location for a 300,000-square-foot warehouse.
And the real estate people are showing them raw farmland and forests. These are not the tree huggers. These are real money folks. And they're sitting in a motel at the end of the day, "We can't do this. We can't put up a tilt-up warehouse on a raw farmland." So they teamed up with an NGO in Pennsylvania to build on top of an abandoned coal mine, 22 levels of coal [inaudible 00:49:06] below. And they never consulted the environmental team for that.
Carol Cone:
Okay, that's good. Is there another situation where it's surprising that you're showing your authenticity besides product development, employee care, fair trade, another area that you say this is really important for us to solve and to move maybe better capitalism forward?
Vincent Stanley:
Well, in a couple of ways. One is, we've been a co-founder of several industry organizations, beginning with Sustainable Apparel Coalition, 1% for the Planet. We've been involved with them. We helped create Dr. Bronner's in and Rodale, the Regenerative Organic certification.
So that work with peers, wool and standards for animal welfare, I think that work has been very important. And also for years, we sponsored activists, we donated to activists, but I think for the last 10 years we've been more of an activist company. That was key in 2017 when we sued the first Trump administration over the rescission of 80% of Bears Ears National Monument.
Carol Cone:
Bears Ears. "Your President Stole This Land," I think that was the ad.
Vincent Stanley:
Yeah. Yeah. That was it. So I think activism and also working in the industry, we didn't create it single-handedly, but we helped create a group called Brands for Public Lands.
Carol Cone:
So as you became an activist company, you launched Patagonia Action Works, which I love. And people say, "Well, what is it?" And I say, "Well, it's a match.com for everyday people who want to do environmental things in their local communities." Can you talk a little bit about a Patagonia Action Works because I think it's brilliant?
Vincent Stanley:
Yeah, thanks. I love Action Works. And what it does is, a person can go online and you can key in a geographic area you're interested in, a particular cause. Is it water quality, habitat, climate? And it will kick out the names of groups that you might want to become engaged in.We'd like to move more in this direction of creating a large community that's also helping to create the conditions in which people can work to save the home planet.
Carol Cone:
I want to talk about September 14, 2022, and that was the day that the ownership of Patagonia changed. And I love that Yvon said, "The only option was the one we created." When I saw that, it like, "Oh, my God, that's incredible." Can you talk about the Patagonia Purpose Trust and the Holdfast Collective and how they work for our listeners? Because again, it's an extraordinary development.
Vincent Stanley:
Yeah, thank you. Yvon had been looking for the last 20 years for the ownership of the company be perpetual in some fashion. And everything we looked at was problematic in terms of, whoever was running the company in 20 years or 30 years, what could they do? Could they undermine the current purpose of the company? So the Patagonia Purpose Trust owns I think very little... It basically has a voting stock. It owns some voting stock. It doesn't own a lot of the company's stock. The Holdfast Collective is essentially the collective of several different NGOs, 501(c)(3) companies that are tax deductible and 501(c)(4)s that are not because they're more activists or more political.
And this is also written in perpetuity. So the company can't be sold. That structure can't be changed. And what it does is, it enables us to give away to large-scale environmental efforts, what ordinarily would've been paid as stockholder dividends. So Patagonia as a company still gives 1% for the planet, and we're still committed to small grassroots organizations, no bigger than the size of a corner church, just a few volunteers, very effective in saving a patch of land or a stretch of water. But the Holdfast Collective enables us to do the kind of work in the vein of what Kris and Doug Tompkins did of large-scale land purchases in order to preserve ecosystems.
Carol Cone:
Yeah. And just for our listeners, you've donated over 180 million through the Holdfast Collective since 2022. So it's a lot of money, after, of course, you help fund the running of Patagonia. So it's brilliant. It's brilliant. And is there one story or two that you'd want to say when that announcement was made, how did the company feel? There's something that's so special.
Vincent Stanley:
Yeah. There were a couple of moments. There's a woman named Cheryl Endo who's worked for Patagonia for years and years. And she tends to keep the trains running on time within the production department. She's really great. As everybody's filing out, she goes up to Ryan, the CEO, and she said, "Well, I'm not taking any of your dust anymore." And he says, "What do you mean?" She said, "I don't work for you anymore. I work for that tree over there."
Carol Cone:
Yeah. Our only shareholder is nature. That's a fabulous story. As we unfortunately have to wind down because I would love hours with you, and maybe I can convince you to do that, there's two other questions which is, for others who are so admiring of Patagonia, what could you say to future leaders, so that they might progress on this journey that you've had, this incredible journey? What would you suggest to them?
Vincent Stanley:
Well, it depends on what they're doing. For entrepreneurs, I do suggest to them that they become a B Corp right away or start getting 1% to the planet right away. To determine, discern is a better word than determine, what the purpose is, what your strengths are, what you're committed to. And to communicate that to all of your stakeholders from the beginning, especially if you have investors. And I think sometimes idealistic entrepreneurs can say, "Okay, I'm going to get up to 5 or $10 million and then I'm going to become a good guy, but I've got to establish this space." And I think that's misleading, that what you really want to do is to bake those values deeply into the company from the beginning.
For graduate students, [inaudible 01:02:10] advise them particularly if they want to do something to change the world or to make the world a better place, is also find work that really satisfies you. Don't sacrifice yourself in order to help save the planet because you'll burn out. So what you want is a lot of people who are working all the time, as they are at Patagonia to make the changes we need.
Carol Cone:
And I love in the book that you have a great chapter on careers. And you list all these new careers that young people who want to work for a company that's doing good for the planet and for society. Great list in here. There's another series of lists here that I want to draw to everyone's attention. There are checklists, and they're a checklist per stakeholder. There's over, I think 150 different actions you can do. So I am thrilled for the time you've given us and Purpose 360, our universe, Vincent Stanley, I always love to give the last word to our guest. So anything you want to add or you want to just exemplify, or just double down on?
Vincent Stanley:
There was a quote that we used twice in the Responsible Company and the sequel, the Future of the Responsible Company that opens the book from the Heisla leader, Gerald Amos. And he says, "The most important right we have is the right to be responsible." And I love that because I think in our culture, we tend to think of responsibility as something you do when you're not having fun.
And what this implies, if it's our most important, it's also the condition of our freedom, it's the satisfaction. And everybody knows that when you're not able to be responsible because you're afraid to for whatever reason or it's not sanctioned at work, there's a deadening of the soul that happens. And there's an enlivening of the soul when you feel that you can live according to your values, and also be emotionally rewarded for it.
Carol Cone:
That's beautiful. Well, a wonderful way of bringing this fantastic and such insightful and heartwarming conversation. So thank you so much for your time.
Vincent Stanley:
Well, thank you so much, Carol.
Carol Cone:
This podcast was brought to you by some amazing people, and I'd love to thank them. Anne Hundertmark and Kristin Kenney at Carol Cone ON PURPOSE. Pete Wright and Andy Nelson, our crack production team at TruStory FM. And you, our listener. Please rate and rank us because we really want to be as high as possible as one of the top business podcasts available, so that we can continue exploring together the importance and the activation of authentic purpose. Thanks so much for listening.
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