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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Welcome to the System Speak podcast, a podcast about dissociative identity disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Okay. So it turns out I have just made the mistake of asking my children if they put away their laundry. My apologies for being, quote, the worst mother on the planet, end quote. Oh my goodness. It was not even a nagging moment.
Speaker 2:I was super calm. They had had playtime after school. It was already a, like, chill time. Everything should have been an okay time for a simple okay question, not even in demand. I left them.
Speaker 2:There was no nagging. So I was just checking so we could move on with the evening. Not my laundry, not bathroom laundry, not bedding, nothing like that. I do that. Their laundry, their own clothes that have been at the bottom of the stairs, just checking to see if it got put away.
Speaker 2:It was just a question, guys. I'm sorry. I'm having a mom moment, and I hate it because it is so triggering to try to help them learn skills for adulthood because they're teenagers now, you know, literally driving one to driver's ed later this afternoon. I am triggered and have big feelings when I am in the position of making sure that we are functioning as a family and also not being intrusive or naggy or shiny happy or any of the terrible things that happened to me. They are not responsible for the world.
Speaker 2:They get lots of playtime. But I am currently the worst mother on the entire planet. Do you know how many mothers are on this planet? I did not say that. I did not ask that.
Speaker 2:I did not take the bait or engage because it is okay for them to have their feelings too. But now while they are hanging up their clothes, I have excused myself to put my feelings here in the space of my car because I am the mom, the worst mom, by the way, and so it is not my job to dump my feelings on the children. Everybody who's been waiting ten years to see me angry, this is it. I'm angry. I'm frustrated.
Speaker 2:I'm so overwhelmed, and it's so yucky. I want them to feel safe and comfortable all the time. Here's the problem. That's not real life. Here's the problem.
Speaker 2:Hey. It's me. I'm the problem. It's me. Okay.
Speaker 2:The worst mom on the planet. I know they don't mean it. I know I'm gonna get sweet notes written on paper and decorated in crayon even if they are teenagers, and that they will be slid under the door in the middle of the night when they should be in bed. Oh my goodness. I can't even see, here's what it's actually about.
Speaker 2:It's not even about any of that. And I'm not even gonna say names because I'm not here to diss my children. I'm really not. Everything that just happened was entirely developmentally appropriate, and I am aware of that, and I stayed chill until I got to the car and started saying all this. But here's the thing.
Speaker 2:Here's the thing. I am in a season of my life of not pretending anymore, of not fawning anymore. My job in life is not to make other people comfortable. That just, like, blows all the niceness out the window. I don't wanna be unkind.
Speaker 2:I'm not trying to be cruel. And the only laundry that needs to be done are two pairs of pants and two shirts and a jacket that's been on the floor for three weeks. It's just normal Right? Except I'm not picking it up. I'm not being passive.
Speaker 2:Like, it's not a passive aggressive where they have to guess what their consequences are and what it was they did wrong and solve the puzzle if I'm not gonna tell them, and they're gonna be in trouble for what I haven't told them until they figure it out. It's not that kind of thing. I could be a better mom. I mean, when you're the worst mom on the planet, like, it's a low bar. So it it gets easier to do a better job at being a mom when you start out low key.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness. I can't even. I can't even. So here's what's what's classic. Here's where fawning comes up.
Speaker 2:Okay. Oh, so many things to talk about. So many things to unpack in this moment, and I have to talk about this because I can't write it all down and send to my therapist, or I will have to, like, talk about it. And I can't do that until I have words. So I have to find my words first, and then I can talk about it in therapy.
Speaker 2:I'm working on it. So layer one, the trigger itself. Escalated emotions, that's a trigger. Hateful mean words, even if they're not real, that's a trigger. Big feelings that are entirely valid, also a trigger even though I think we already mentioned that.
Speaker 2:So, apparently, there's a pattern. And not wanting to cause them more trauma in their lives or trauma like I went through. So then it gets tricky because untrauma does not mean free for all. Untrauma does not mean no accountability. And so, like, how do you do those things gently, consciously, intentionally?
Speaker 2:All the things we've been saying for years except nobody cares. Oh, if there's anything that will teach you about unfawning, it is being a parent to me as I don't care. Except when I say that, it scares me because even just feeling that or having that thought because, like, I don't want them to feel like I felt. Right? And I do care.
Speaker 2:I think they care. I think it is development and independence. And if they don't care about the same things, that's okay. You know what? Legit, I did not point out the jacket every week.
Speaker 2:I every day. I did point it out every week as part of the, let's just pick up so we can keep functioning as a family, and we don't have any more spoons, so maybe we should start the dishwasher. Just a suggestion. Not not a commandment. Not gonna be all shiny happy about it, but if you want some spoons, we're gonna have to wash some spoons because I, myself, am out of spoons.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness. See? I'm laughing. I'm not crying. That's progress.
Speaker 2:I feel like that that's progress. This is not a depression moment. This is another it's true. I'm the worst mother in the world. I'm not.
Speaker 2:I know because I've had several. Oh my goodness. Okay. So the next layer is that I don't wanna traumatize them. Right?
Speaker 2:So they have have big feelings. I can co regulate with them. But because they're teenagers, the new cool thing all five teenagers. Right? And even the little one.
Speaker 2:So all my kids now, the very cool new thing is they have finally learned how to roll their eyes and how to, like, slam doors and stuff. And this even is progress because there is no violence happening. No one hit me. No one hurt me. No one even called me names other than the worst mother in the world, which I can take with a grain of salt and some pepper.
Speaker 2:So we are making progress. Right? They are making progress. I'm making progress. I can give them space.
Speaker 2:I can give them room, but, man, I gotta check my feelings. But here's the thing, even if they're not hitting me, which I appreciate, no one is hitting me, that's fantastic, I still am super triggered by the slamming of doors. Can we just talk about that for a hot minute for the raising of voices even though nothing is actually wrong? So all teasing aside about what a bad mom I am because I said pick up your jacket or did you hang up your laundry? Whatever.
Speaker 2:And I can work on being a better mom. All of that aside, this is, like, a legit actual issue is the triggers of violence around me. Like, these things are why I still need therapy. So okay. So there's that layer.
Speaker 2:The next layer is because my relationship with my children, as much as I can, like, to the degree that they are still in therapy and have attachment issues, to the degree that I am still in therapy and have no attachment issues whatsoever, like, the acuity level in our home, I can't even. So so aside from all of our stuff, there's also just the fact that healthy relationships with children should be safe and nurturing, and also not the same as friendship. I do not mean this in a shiny, happy, authority kind of way. I mean this in the appropriate boundaries and dynamics that my children are not responsible for my feelings. That's why I'm in the car saying all of these things out loud so that I don't say them to them because I'm gonna see them again before I can get to my therapist two days from now.
Speaker 2:So it's gotta come out of my mouth so it's not in there waiting to come out of my mouth. So it is a hard thing because I'm like, oh, I love you so much. I'm so glad we're good friends and we're so close. It's not true, and I cannot say that. I don't say that, but it's an it's an example of not daydreaming.
Speaker 2:When things are going well, things can be going well without it defining me. I am no more defined by their good behavior than I am defined by their bad behavior. I am no more the best mom in the whole world than I am the worst mom in the whole world. Does that make sense? So I cannot daydream.
Speaker 2:Oh, everything is lovely and good and shiny happy because it's not. I don't even have any spoons, and there's clothes on the floor. What is happening? So there are several things about this. One example is I work really, really hard to not be OCD about my environment, but that's because literally my mother was a hoarder.
Speaker 2:I've never talked about this. I need to talk about this sometime, and I know that that was because of her own traumas and issues. And for her, no joke, for her, objects were safe and part of her life in a way people never were. So for her, like, stuff was her friends. And I'm not saying that lightly or mocking.
Speaker 2:I need it, and I can understand that. I've actually have helped some people with OCD in a hoarding kind of way, like, even talking about that authentically. But for me, that's why it's a trigger. But none of that is my kids' problems. Right?
Speaker 2:So I have worked really hard all week not to say anything about the clothes left on the stairs or the jacket on the floor by the table for three weeks. I worked so hard, you guys, so hard. I did not say anything. It was, like, not a fawning thing with them. It's a safety thing.
Speaker 2:They don't need my stuff passed down to them. If the jacket bothers them on the floor, they'll pick it up eventually. If they need it, they'll pick it up and put it on. Right? It's not like it's lost.
Speaker 2:It's right there where everybody can see it. We're all gonna step over it every day. It's right there. So I can let that go and work hard at letting that go because it doesn't actually matter. What matters is our relationship.
Speaker 2:And so I worked really hard all of these weeks to try and choose our relationship, and then I said the wrong thing, and I pointed it out. Was it just as long as I could hold it in, maybe? Was it a moment of weakness as part of being the worst mom on the planet? Definitely. Was it necessary?
Speaker 2:I don't know. At some point at some point, we gotta pick up the jacket and clean the floor. Like, I am that naggy mom, not in a shiny happy way. Maybe sometimes, oh, I don't wanna be, so it's really a struggle. And also and also, I'm trying so hard to relax, and I have come so far in relaxing and not saying the things.
Speaker 2:But you guys, I still say the things. I just need everyone else to forgive me for a moment in all the shiny happy ways and just let moms hear me out. Like, I wanna hate on my children. I mean, it is hard to be overwhelmed by other people's stuff and that not be a trigger of my childhood being overwhelmed by other people's stuff while I had nothing. So at some point, we're just gonna have to vacuum the rug, and that means picking up the jacket.
Speaker 2:Like, I don't I I don't know. At some point, you gotta just take out the trash. I can take my turn at that. I don't mind. And, also, it's not my jacket, and I'm not fawning.
Speaker 2:And I'm not gonna pick it up, but it really needs to be picked up. So at some point, I have to say something. So what does that look like, parenting independent people who are almost done needing any kind of structure or guidance, and yet still need encouragement and reassurance? And how do you do that so it looks like that? I don't have any idea.
Speaker 2:So okay. So So another layer of all of this is that it means letting go of daydreaming. It is a shiny happy daydream that your children always are going to like you. It is a shiny happy daydream that you're always going to like your children. I don't oh, that sounds so heartbreaking.
Speaker 2:I don't mean it in a terrible, awful way. I mean it in a natural way. You guys, this is why preschoolers like kindergarten, they start losing their teeth and get cute again. It's so that you still love them after they have been three nagers. I'm just saying.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying. So how do you hold space for these natural ruptures that are only developmental? I don't hate my children. They don't really hate me. Well, they might, but I don't think so.
Speaker 2:But these natural, just developmental ruptures that are actually good and right and healthy. My children are learning to set boundaries. My children are learning to pace themselves. My children are learning to be responsible for their own things. My children are learning to make decisions in their life.
Speaker 2:Do they wanna hang up the clothes? Do they wanna fold them in the drawer? Do they, like, I it's really okay. I let them decide for themselves, even while they're still learning that the task has to be completed. And can I tell you, every single one of my children has something going on from trauma before, from disabilities, that makes completing any task difficult?
Speaker 2:So part of it's not even anything new. Part of it is that they have bigger bodies, and so our problems are bigger and louder even when everything is still okay. Does that make sense? So it is not daydreaming when we have to say, we really have to pick up the clothes off the floor. Like, it's a safety hazard.
Speaker 2:It's a health hazard. Like, you do you. You can put them where you want, but they need to be put away. So it would be daydreaming if I did not set boundaries, and they thought they could just do things any way they want without any boundaries at all. That's not healthy either.
Speaker 2:So it's like this learning to hold a balance beam. Hold a balance beam, I don't think works in English. I could do it in sign language. Like, to balance the balance beam or the scales or something, where there is not the rigidity or cruelty of shiny happy, but there's also not the neglect of no boundaries at all or no structure at all. And where do you find not just what is the thing, but what is right for them?
Speaker 2:And for each child, that's different. So part of what's intense and difficult is that it's different for everybody. And you guys, we should have had the same thing. We should have been I'm just gonna say it. Okay.
Speaker 2:New layer. I wish you could see the checklist in my head. I'm, like, numbering it, and we're on, like, number seven. It's not on paper. This is just how my head organizes.
Speaker 2:Let's just say the thing. I'm gonna say it explicitly, not in a cussing way, not in a overly detailed trauma way. But if you don't wanna have any trauma references at all, like, skip the podcast thirty seconds. Because let's just lay it out there. Here's the thing.
Speaker 2:Next layer of triggers or the next big thing for therapy, if I ever would have talked to my parents the way they talk to me, I would have been knocked into next week. Can we just talk about that for a minute? No. Because that would require undissociating. That would require actually talking about things in therapy.
Speaker 2:So we're gonna talk about that? No. No. We are not. But, oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness. How do we balance that? And when they do that, I think, in my head and hold space for this is developmentally appropriate. They're accomplishing the task. It's okay for them to have their feelings, and do all of that for them while my body thinks, oh, someone raised their voice and we're in danger.
Speaker 2:You guys, I'm not actually in danger. Everything is okay, and I am the parent, so it is my job to regulate my body. It is my job to regulate my voice. It is my job to regulate my heart rate. It is my job to regulate my breathing.
Speaker 2:I have to do all the things so that I can co regulate with them. You can have big feelings and you are still safe. You cannot like the rules and still find a way to accomplish the task. You can disagree with me and still be loved. You can say terrible things, and I still care about you.
Speaker 2:I cannot like what you say, and I will still hug you when you say sorry, when I say sorry. When we say sorry together, not to each other in a shiny happy way, but in a trauma is awful. Life is hard. Nobody nobody wants to do their laundry. Well, I can think of, like, three of you who right now are like, I like to do my laundry and my laundry is done.
Speaker 2:Well, the rest of us, we hate laundry. Okay? So I feel you, kids. I'm right there with you. And, also, you have enough clothes, and you're clean, and you have what you need to function well in life and to be safe and healthy and happy.
Speaker 2:So even though you're all growing so fast, you need new clothes, like, every three months. You've got what you need. We're okay. So part of daydreaming is just being healthy. Right?
Speaker 2:And I had to notice this and sit with this because I've already been working on this with my relationships. It is daydreaming to believe I could go back to Oklahoma, Everything could be idyllic, and everything could return as it was. It can't. There were things that were too much for me, too much for other kids. Like, every one of the eight of us needed something that was not being met the way things were going.
Speaker 2:And every one of the eight of us is healthier and better and happier the way things are. So I can't just be like, oh, the kid just said I'm the worst mom in the world, so that means I should move back to Oklahoma. Y'all, I would have done that two years ago. That's where my mind would have gone two years ago. So I'm making progress because I know it is not that binary.
Speaker 2:Right? So that's part of not daydreaming. The other part of not daydreaming that I have I know I've alluded to it. I've not talked about it explicitly. You all have been amazingly kind and welcoming to Jules on the podcast, And I am grateful for your sweet messages and your kind words.
Speaker 2:She is grateful. We're excited about our projects in the next year, like teaching the class together and all the things. Right? And there's so much I love about her and love about our relationship and how close we are. But you all, it is daydreaming to think that I can just run away with her or that, like, I cannot do that.
Speaker 2:It's not healthy for her. It is not healthy for me. It is not healthy for my children. So those of you who think my life is even more exciting than it is, don't be getting any ideas. Like, let me just say it explicitly.
Speaker 2:I have not moved in with her. She has not moved in with me. It is not like that. It is not going to be like that. It cannot be like that.
Speaker 2:I don't need to give you all the details of that because it's not your business. None you. I have learned part of unfawning is saying none you. None you may be one of the best phrases ever in American English. None in your business.
Speaker 2:None you. Oh, hearing people, Americans. So okay. So I I cannot daydream. What is not is the point.
Speaker 2:Right? So I have choices to learn what I need to learn that I missed out in adolescence. In adolescence, I did not learn what dating is. I did not learn before I got married what consent was, what arranged marriages or chosen marriages are. Like, I need to do all of the work to learn these things.
Speaker 2:I have shared on the podcast my coming out story, but also choose to maintain my faith for a variety of reasons in ways that are meaningful and powerful to me. And so what does that look like for me is what that means to me. And I know that we talk about lots of these pieces on the podcast, but really it's none you. I was just trying to use it in a sentence. No.
Speaker 2:But here's the thing. Right? On the podcast, we talk about the trauma pieces. But when I start only daydreaming, like, maybe that's what they're talking about with maladaptive daydreaming. I fell in the hole of it.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Sometimes it's for people thinking they can hang out with their systems more than they can participate in real life. I'm not saying our systems are bad, but I'm saying we also have to interact with the external world to be healthy and whole and, like, grow and deepen in the same way that we also have to have good relationships with ourselves, so there's that balance beam again. Right? So I have to learn how to meet my needs in a way that is not reenactment of neglect or ignoring my needs, but also is not a selfish only my needs matter kind of way, but also is not a I shouldn't have needs because trauma, and so I shouldn't be needy, or in the same way can't not let other people tend to me as well.
Speaker 2:Like, there are so many layers and nuances of all these things that we're learning, but I have to do this work and this sorting and say all the things about all the things or I'm not real, and I want more than anything to be real. So even as a person of faith, I cannot have a real and deepened and developed faith if I do not acknowledge my the traumas related to my sexuality. I cannot be a healthy, whole faith developed person if I do not also acknowledge the traumas I've experienced in the context of religion, which is not to me the same at all as faith. So I talk about all these layers because, you guys, it is part of waking up. I can make all these jokes that I want about not talking in therapy, except really, I'm doing it.
Speaker 2:I'm doing it at my pace. I'm doing it like I share here. I write. I talk to her. I show up.
Speaker 2:I keep coming back. You guys, it was hard to find a new therapist, but I'm in therapy and it's helping. And so that means I have to use that. And if I want to get better, things cannot stay the same. So that means not daydreaming, not that it's not okay to have dreams or goals.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying that. But if I want to be healthy, and if I want to exist and know that I exist, if I want to take up space in my own life, I have to see my life accurately. And that means sometimes I'm too easy on my kids, and then sometimes I'm too hard on them to overcompensate, and I'm still learning to balance that out. And then sometimes because of that, then I'm too easy on them again. And that is part of disorganized attachment, so I have to stay in therapy.
Speaker 2:We stay in family therapy and keep talking about it and practicing and we're all growing up together, which is what even other healthy parents do. If I want to take up space in my life, I have to know who I am and what I choose and what I want to do or not do, whether that is for my work and how high risk it is or not, how much I get paid or not, if that is for my education, what kind of therapist I am or not, whether I want to teach or not, who I have sex with or not, who are my friends and who are my dates and who am I in a relationship with? Like, all these things, I cannot do those things. I cannot take up space in my life if I do not see me accurately. So part of what is happening is that very slowly, very slowly, the more I stop daydreaming and see my life accurately, even when it's hard, the more existence euphoria, if I could say those words, I experience because I'm seeing me accurately.
Speaker 2:The rest of the time, it's like being in a pinball machine because I don't know what the hell is going on in my own life or why I'm doing what or what I did yesterday, or what I'm supposed to do tomorrow. I cannot live a life that I don't know is happening. I can't live a life that I'm not awake enough to participate in. I can't live a life where my needs are not being met or I don't let anyone else meet my needs. I cannot live a life where I do not choose myself.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, some days are hard and some days are messy. And I'm going to stop talking here, and I'm gonna go back into the house, and I'm going to be super calm. And I'm going to say, Would you like to talk? Do you want a hug? Do you want to go for a walk together?
Speaker 2:Or do you want more space? I'm going to say, How can I help you? I'm going to say, Do you want me to check your clothes hung up? Do you want someone else to check that they got hung up? Do you want to take a picture on your phone and show me?
Speaker 2:What can we do in your language, in your power, to show that the task is done and also get credit for that development and also prioritize our relationship? Because I'm a mom, I'm required to make sure the space you're living in is safe. But also because I'm your mom, our relationship is most important to me. So how can I help make sure you're in a safe space and, also, we can do it your way? What is your idea?
Speaker 2:Let me know. You guys, no one ever said anything like that to me. No one ever loved me enough to say I love and adore you, and also here are my boundaries, and they're not changing. So stop daydreaming. No one ever said to me, I love you so much, and who we are together is amazing.
Speaker 2:So let's go slow, really slow, and just let it be. No one has ever said to me, I want you in my life, but here's what works for me and what doesn't work for me. So rather than not sharing a life, what pieces can we share? And what does that look like for you, and what does it look like for me? No one has ever said to me, I know we are far away, but I'm so glad we're connected.
Speaker 2:You guys, that's my life now. That's saying it accurately. One of the things to stop daydreaming that I have to do is to stop saying I don't have friends because you guys are amazing. Because I have incredible friends who have loved me deeply and loved me well and still show up for me, who give me space and pacing the same as I'm trying to teach my kids. But they're giving it to me so that I experience it too, and nobody's running away.
Speaker 2:And some of us, even in the community, when we've needed to take some space, some of us big, big space, We get what we need, and we take care of it, and we come back together. Because that's what healing does, and that's what healthy relationships do when we repair those things. But we cannot repair what we don't see accurately. And so I'm learning. I'm learning to see my life accurately.
Speaker 2:I'm doing a great job with a great therapist showing up, but we're putting out fires instead of talking about the hard stuff. And you guys have gotta dive in. My life depends on it. The lives of my children depend on it. I've come a long way in knowing what I think and feel and need and want.
Speaker 2:And now it's time to learn the nuances of how to do those things, not shiny happy, but also not avoidant. What is the balance in there? You guys, it is part of daydreaming to recognize I'm not a great driver. You guys both Julie's agree. It's not my skill set, and that's not derogatory.
Speaker 2:That's awareness. And you know what? It makes sense I'm not a good driver. I don't mean that mean. I just mean I have other skill sets to offer the world.
Speaker 2:Driving is not necessarily one of them. But you know what? No one taught me. I didn't have a parent get in the car and teach me how to drive. So, yeah, not the best driver.
Speaker 2:That's great. The whole world knows it because of the podcast. That's fine. I'm trying not to die out here in the real world, you guys. But, also, it's deprivation.
Speaker 2:That's seeing it accurately is not being mean to myself or derogatory to myself or shaming to myself. It is seeing the deprivation. I never learned how to drive. I had to teach myself how to drive. There was no parent who said, hey.
Speaker 2:This is the developmental task. So it's time to drive. Let's go practice. No one did that for me. You guys, it's not just the trauma.
Speaker 2:It's not just the relational stuff. It's also the deprivation. All of it together. We have to see it accurately if we want to heal. And all teasing aside and all venting aside, The best thing about teenagers is that they're over it really quickly.
Speaker 2:By the time I go back inside, everything's gonna be okay. We'll be able to have a conversation probably for hours. You can ask Jules. She's she's like, I need a pillow for these benches. Hey.
Speaker 2:We're gonna just keep sitting at the table and talking for hours because it's what we do. No one talked to me. And children have voices. Teenagers have voices, and they need to be heard. Your voice matters.
Speaker 2:You need to be heard. And that's part of what people do for me too. That's what you're doing for me right now, letting me be heard. And because of that, we're healing not just ourselves, but generations. And that's powerful.
Speaker 2:So I'm gonna go back in there all calm like, you know, breathing. I'll give hugs if they want them. We'll talk if they want to. We'll go on a walk if they want to. And then I'm gonna feed them a good dinner that is healthier than they would like and also will be yummy enough.
Speaker 2:And then I'm gonna take them to the driver's ed thing because they're becoming people, really healthy people, people with voices, people who can say no in ways it took me decades to learn. They're blowing me away. They're amazing. And maybe maybe I'm not such a bad mom. Not the best, but not the worst.
Speaker 2:And maybe that's good enough. Maybe. You guys, I'm starting to believe it.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. Your support really helps us feel less alone while we sort through all of this and learn together. Maybe it will help you in some ways too. You can connect with us on Patreon by going to our website at www.systemspeak.org. If there's anything we've learned, it's that connection brings healing.
Speaker 1:We look forward to connecting with you.