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In RONderings, Ron talks to his guests about their superpowers, including career advice, diversity, mindset, wellness, and leadership. Ron grew up in New York City, and has been coaching and leading executive searches for the last five years, taking what he has learned from 15 years in corporate, higher education, government, and non-profit contexts. He and his wife are obsessed with reality television, and Ron also moonlights as a men's personal stylist and group fitness instructor. Ron says, "I believe in the power of intuition and deepening one’s self-awareness and impact on others. I believe in the power of connection and transparency. I believe that we must dismantle systems of oppression and racism to recover our fullest humanity. Most of all, I believe our power to change the world starts from changing ourselves first."
What's up? I'm Ron Rapatalo and this is the Ronderings podcast. Around here, I sit down with guests for real, unpolished conversations about the lessons and values that shaped them. And I'll be right there with you, sharing my own take, laughing at myself when I need to, and wondering out loud about this messy thing called life. Glad you pulled up a chair.
Ron Rapatalo:Let's get into it. What if a Lambda three isn't broken? What is this working exactly as it was designed? To stay in Ronderings, I sit down with George Suttles, Harlem born, mini rooted, and now operating inside some of the most powerful funding institutions in the country. George's story starts at St.
Ron Rapatalo:Luke's Hospital on 1 11th At Amsterdam Avenue, raised between Harlem, Dykeman, and Bed Stuy, shaped by a father who coached neighbor kids like their rezone, and mother grounded in faith and service at Convent Avenue Baptist Church. For direct youth work across New York City, his tech policy at the National Urban League, program office trustee whose current role as executive director at the Common Fund Institute, George followed the money. Not for status, for impact. This conversation, we unpack the professionalization of philanthropy, the myth of merit based funding, why nonprofits deserve endowments to, what it really means to move from gatekeeping to gate opening. This one is about power, repair, redesigning the system from the inside out.
Ron Rapatalo:Let's get into it. Ronderings fam, I have a longtime friend, and funny story how I met George is that George was referred to me, and he was one of my personal styling clients
George Suttles:years and years ago.
Ron Rapatalo:So I fitted him with a custom shirt sometime back. I won't call up that photo because that photo's of all the men that I've styled somewhere on my Facebook. But I wanna introduce to you all my friend, George Suttles is on the mic. How are you doing, George?
George Suttles:I'm good. Thank you, brother. Thank you for having me. Wow. That was that was a while back.
George Suttles:Thank you. So we we we really have been doing this a long time, and I just I'm grateful to you for having me. So thank you.
Ron Rapatalo:Absolutely, man. Well, let's get into it, man. What's your story?
George Suttles:My story? Well, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't start by just letting everybody know that I'm a New York City kid, born and raised. Yes. I'm a New York City kid
Ron Rapatalo:born house. Come on now. Absolutely. I should just call this the NYC Ronderings Podcast, man. Absolutely.
Ron Rapatalo:Absolutely. And and I
George Suttles:I wanna be clear. I'm not one of those native purists. That's like, it doesn't matter how long you've lived here, if you weren't born and raised here.
Ron Rapatalo:Oh. We're not pure. Oh, yes.
George Suttles:I'm talking I I I mean I mean, I'm a purist in my own heart and mind. Yeah. You know, I appreciate and celebrate being born and raised here, but I also show love to folks who have lived here and wanna contribute positively to communities here. Absolutely. I'm just like, alright.
George Suttles:Whether you've been here ten years or you were born here, if you if you care about New York City, you care about New York City communities, you care about its people, I'm all I'm all for it.
Ron Rapatalo:So Word to that. Yeah.
George Suttles:Yeah. Yeah. Definitely definitely. I I don't want I don't want any hate in the comments.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm I'm definitely that's just for me.
George Suttles:I take pride in being a New York City native, being a, you know, being a purist, whatever that means, but I'm not no hate, no shade on anyone else who is not from here but has lived here for a long time and has love for the city. That's an important element of it. Another important element is that I really care about family. I'm really close with my family and as I sort of, as I expand my family, you know, and as my family expands, it's something that I'm just really holding, really holding close. And the concept of family has been on the forefront of my mind, not just like the expansion of my own family, but really just kinship and connection, especially given the times that we're in, right?
George Suttles:And so what does it really mean to hold people close, to really appreciate and lean into familial ties, kinship ties, and center each other in community and hold each other close. So I I I I that's something that's like been on my heart and been on my mind, especially as I sort of navigate a new father, you know, fatherhood journey with my wife. Yes.
Ron Rapatalo:That feels for joining the club. Yes. Yes.
George Suttles:Yes. Yes. I it's a very it's a very opening club that I'm excited to excited to be excited to be a part of, but yeah. But definitely. And we've talked about this, family is very much front and center and top of mind for me, and I get that from my upbringing, you know.
George Suttles:Yeah. Born and raised in Harlem, so important to mention that too, not just in New City.
Ron Rapatalo:Was in
George Suttles:Harlem kit, but a Harlem kit.
Ron Rapatalo:You knew my follow-up question was gonna be, like, your New York City, like, born and raised stories. So born and raised in Harlem?
George Suttles:Born and raised. Remember remember Saint Luke's Hospital by Saint John the Divine right up on like 111th in Amsterdam? That's where I was born.
Ron Rapatalo:Oh, man. Okay.
George Suttles:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really funny. It's my my parents' love story is a very New York City one.
George Suttles:Dad grew up in Dykeman and my mom grew up in Brooklyn in Bed Stuy. So the fact that they would Yeah. That was like a that's like a long distance relationship.
Ron Rapatalo:In New York County. Oh my god.
George Suttles:So the fact that they found love and they made it work is, is, feels, feels incredible because I know, New York City folks, you know, or at least, you know, some folks, they definitely, look at proximity when they're thinking about, you know, who they're gonna visit, who they're gonna link up with. And so for my dad to be from Dykeman, it's all the way uptown and my mom to be from Bedside Brooklyn and they still found each other and made it work. It feels like a, like a, like a Herculean task, but, grateful. Shout out to them. Shout out to them.
George Suttles:Yes.
Ron Rapatalo:Tell me a little bit about your parents, right? Because I've seen it through LINE with Ronderings Guests that the things that your parents, that folks' parents did directly aligned with the work and values that one brings on the pod. So I'm curious, talk about what your parents did, values growing up, etcetera. Was there a through line that you'd like to describe or was it something like, you know because that's what I've seen, but might be different here. Curious.
George Suttles:Yeah. No. No. Definitely. Definitely.
George Suttles:I mean, my dad, you know, he's since passed, but he was very, you know, community oriented, community minded. You know, growing up in Harlem in the eighties eighties and nineties. Oh. You know? Unfortunately, there were many other young people in our neighborhood that didn't have fathers.
George Suttles:And so he very much was that, you know, community father figure. Mean, he coached, he coached all the teams, basketball, baseball. And so he really, you know, for as long as my mom and dad were together, he very much was a community anchor and a father figure to many and my mom So as I'd say that combination of, you know, that role modeling that we saw growing up and be like, oh, okay. It really isn't just about our family. It's about how do we think about, you know, about the collective, about the community, about the neighborhood.
George Suttles:And I know this is gonna sound cliche, but in New York City back then, you knew your neighbors And you That's were close with your neighbors. That's it really did feel communal in a way that was incredibly impactful. And my mom, well, I'd say both my parents, but especially my mom tried to make sure we grew up in the church. So we grew up right in Convent Avenue Baptist Church, right on 145th And Convent, and that was another
Ron Rapatalo:yeah.
George Suttles:Yeah, mean, come on.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah, yeah. Sugar sugar You gotta get real specific. Real specific. Yeah. Gotta let people know.
George Suttles:Gotta let people know. Spending my formative years watching my dad give back to community through sports and then my mom give back to community through the church really did foster that sense of responsibility, that sense of community, that sense of abundance and generosity. Like don't get me wrong, we didn't grow up having a lot. But when you are in community and you're carrying a spirit of generosity and a spirit of abundance, you realize you think expansively about what is possible for everyone to you know, as opposed to a scarcity mindset where it's like, well, we're struggling and so we've got to hoard and keep what we have and, you know, and then, you know, wish everybody else luck, but, you know, we've really got to take care of our own. My mom especially was very much like, hey, we don't have much, but our friends and family who live in our neighborhood and who are part of our church community can access whatever we have.
George Suttles:Beautiful. So, you know, in my formative years seeing those examples, was like, oh, okay. You know, before we knew about social justice, before we knew about the nonprofit sector, before we even knew the concept of philanthropy, we knew the concepts of generosity, of abundance, of community, of taking care of your neighbors. And that really, that's the major through line, even, I've even carried that into my professional career. That's probably why I do you know, I'm involved in a lot of the things that I'm involved in now.
George Suttles:You know?
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Tell me about your path to philanthropy because when I was your men's personal stylist, you were in a corporate job. And so I'm very curious about that through line. It's something that I've seen. I've had corporate friends get into philanthropy.
Ron Rapatalo:I've had nonprofit friends. So I'm always curious about the journey into a sector that I've had many people say, Ron, how do you get into philanthropy? I'm like, you know, it's a really tough question to answer because I tell people it's like, it's predicated a lot on who you know, and I think you have to have certain skill sets in order to get into it. And I know you had a, like, a very strong financial background, if I recall correctly, that think informs that somewhat. But tell me Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:If I'm
George Suttles:So that's a good, so I'll quickly take you through, you know, I don't wanna walk through my CV, I think the sequencing going to be informative. Really quick. Like, right out of college worked for a direct service nonprofit, Directions for Our Youth. Actually saw their current ED at an event last night.
Ron Rapatalo:Who was?
George Suttles:Shout out to her. Of course. Okay. And you know, that was direct service, youth development in communities that we both know, that we grew up in and that we care about, right? That's Harlem, that's The Bronx, that's Queens, that's Brooklyn, that's, and that felt important to me because I was like, I'm a young black man from those communities.
George Suttles:I've been incredibly blessed to get academic and like enrichment opportunities myself. That's how I got to college and so let me give back in that way because I know that's a direct pathway to transformative life changing experiences for young people. So did that work for a few years, but like any frontline direct service work, I began to see like the cracks in the system. So no matter how many young people and families I was able to help, there were systemic challenges, systemic pressures that were seemingly insurmountable and outside of our control. And I was like, well, how do we get to those problems?
George Suttles:Right? How do we get to those issues, right? I can help a young person eat and get access to shelter and clothes for a day, maybe for a week, maybe for a couple of weeks, maybe even for a couple of months, but how do we break the cycles of poverty? How do we break the cycles of a lack of access? And so those are systemic issues that I became more and more curious about.
George Suttles:And curious about and furious about, right? Because I was like, woah, those same systemic pressures are not just impacting the young people and families I'm working with, but they're impacting me and my family and I wanna sharpen my analysis around that. So then I took a job at the National Urban League doing tech policy work. So really looking at like, so for example, tech policy work in the civil rights arena would be like bridging the digital divide, making sure that marginalized and underserved black and brown communities got access to reliable internet, reliable wifi, reliable, like back in the day fiber optics infrastructure.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
George Suttles:That then programs and jobs would come to those communities because they had the infrastructure to support them. And that was, that public policy work both at the federal, regional, you know, regional and local level felt really, really important because I was like, oh right, if we can organize and educate people about the impacts of this and we can educate them around, you know, bills that need to be passed and, you know, representatives that really care about these issues and if we can build strategic partnerships that are going to allow us to advance some of this work, then that could be a little bit more powerful than just saying like, oh, we're going to work with a handful of families, we're going to work with a handful of individuals, let's fix the system so that it makes it easier for everyone else to access these resources.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
George Suttles:So did that work? And then at the same time, and this is going to bring it back to philanthropy, in every direct service or policy job I ever had invariably there was the dance for dollars that we had to do. Oh, hey, the funder of x program that you really care about and you know is vital is coming to do a site visit or want to report. And if that report isn't the best report you've ever written or if this site visit doesn't go smooth, then that could, you know, impact program. Yeah.
George Suttles:That could implode the whole program, explode And the whole it always felt icky to me trying to convince somebody that wasn't in the work, that wasn't on the ground about the relative worthiness of the work we were doing. If that makes sense. I always said, I want to peek behind the curtain. It's like Wizard of Oz, right? Want peek behind the curtain.
George Suttles:Who are these people who have access to resources and dollars? You know, and that was even aside from government, like speaking to government officials and city contracting. I was like, alright, that's one beast. But what about these folks who are coming from like corporate or coming from like these private institutions and they're like, you know, make us, convince us that we should give you another $100,000 for this program. Oh, like metrics, metrics, metrics.
George Suttles:Performance and evaluation. What is the impact? How many people have served? And I'm like, it don't matter if we served one person.
Ron Rapatalo:That sounds like a philanthropic cartoon character by the way you just do it.
George Suttles:Was like, I've heard that. And
Ron Rapatalo:it's one
George Suttles:of those things where I'm in it so I can I can I I I I am, it's like I'm in it so I can speak to it like that because I'm just like, I've been a program officer, I've been a foundation and I currently am a foundation trustee, I've been a philanthropic advisor? So I've sort of covered a lot of the bases here when it comes to working in philanthropy. So anyway, long story short, it was those few jobs that then made me really, really curious about philanthropy as a professional path. Yeah. And then when I was going to grad school, getting my MPA at Baruch, I had an opportunity to do an internship at the New York Health Foundation.
George Suttles:And I was like, oh, this is when I'm gonna get that peek behind the curtain and really see and understand what the heck's going on here.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
George Suttles:And it was amazing to me because I and I still hold this tension with philanthropy. If you're in philanthropy or you're adjacent to philanthropy, have a tremendous opportunity to influence where resources get deployed But for it also comes with a certain disconnection because now you're not on the front line and so how do you manage that, right? How do you activate the power of the folks who are on the front line? How do you advocate for them? How do you make sure that certain communities, certain leaders get access to resources who may have been traditionally locked out of traditional institutional philanthropy and that aren't connected to private wealth and private donors?
George Suttles:How do you make sure they get access to those opportunities? But then also how do you make sure that you're not gatekeeping in a way that's harmful?
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
George Suttles:Right? So, so if you're, so for me I always said, well if I'm a keeper of the gate, how do I kick this gate as open, as wide open as possible? Right? How do I make sure that I'm bringing my lived experience and the voices of leaders and people on the ground that I know Yeah. To the forefront?
George Suttles:How do I make sure I'm representing
Ron Rapatalo:Can I
George Suttles:ask you what might seem
Ron Rapatalo:like a like a I I don't know if this is an obvious question or, like, an obnoxious question, but do you think everybody enters philanthropy with that mindset, and does philanthropy beat that out of you? Like, what's your sense of yeah.
George Suttles:I mean I'm beat that out of you. I mean, I mean, I'll I'll over drink.
Ron Rapatalo:No. But, like, you're you're intense about that. What I know about you makes sense. And I think from everything that I followed about you, I'm like, I think I watch you do your best to make sure that gate is open, but I kind of watch many I don't know if that's I'd like to think just like people in education enter with, like, I believe oftentimes doing what's best for kids and the system and the it's sort of like a season of the wire. You enter with best intent.
George Suttles:At the end of the season, it's like, you're part of the
Ron Rapatalo:system now. You're doing as the system tells you
George Suttles:to do. Alright. Listen. That's a good question. And since we're we're we we we've known each other for a long time, I'll keep it real with you.
Ron Rapatalo:Word, man.
George Suttles:And and the and and and I'm gonna this is one perspective.
Ron Rapatalo:Please. A lot
George Suttles:of this is speculatory. All I can do is speak from my experience and sort of what I know about the field. I think like many other sectors in the nonprofit space more broadly, philanthropy was also impacted by its professionalization. If that makes sense, right? Right.
George Suttles:It became, because remember, philanthropy at its essence is spiritual philosophy. You know, think about, you know, in the Christian faith, in the Islamic faith, in the Jewish faith, and all of these other faith traditions, abundance, generosity, tithing, love thy neighbor, taking care of each other, collectivism is at the very, very heart of what philanthropy means. Love of humanity. Absolutely. Love of humankind.
George Suttles:So philanthropy as a concept actually is quite known to a lot of different communities, a lot of different faith traditions, a lot of different, you know, philanthropy esoteric concept that only a few people can wrap their arms around, right? It's just like, hey, treat people nice, give what you can, and be in community with be in loving community with each other, right? So philanthropy at its essence is accessible to all. But once you begin to institutionalize it, professionalize it, then we start to tap into, oh, well, you know, you have to have these credentials and this pedigree in order to participate as a program officer or consultant or etcetera, etcetera. Oh, you need to, you know, know how to do all of these things.
George Suttles:You need this long list of skills and competencies. And I remember I came into philanthropy during a season when it was all about performance and evaluation. Metrics.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
George Suttles:What can you, if you can't count it, know, if you can't measure it, then it's unfundable, right? Like, what do we how do we quantify impact? How do we do social impact calculus so that we can get to a precise, you know, a precise dollar amount that's going to fund? How many dollars per student are you spending? Many dollars per older adult are you spending?
George Suttles:How many? And I was just like, well, you know, coming into that, coming into philanthropy at that season, it definitely made the disconnect and the tension really stark for me. I was just like, well, wait a second, like I'm a poor black kid from Harlem, like some of the things that you deem as immeasurable, immeasurable from like a negative connotation, like we can't measure it so it doesn't count in the impact report. I was like, some of the things that we're not discussing as impactful were the most impactful for a kid like me. Like, and so why don't we talk about, you know, the raising of young black and brown kids and their esteem and their connectedness to community, their connectedness to each other?
George Suttles:Like there are things that we're missing by not measuring that actually are more invaluable than, oh, they increased their reading level by a grade and a half. That's amazing, that's great, but what I don't exclude a bunch of other programs and initiatives that are equally as important because they're doing other things that aren't as measurable and quantifiable but are equally, if not more important. And so how do we hold space for what it means to measure impact? How we measure impact? How we talk about impact?
George Suttles:So when I came into philanthropy at the time it was very much like, no, no, no, this is a science. There's a social impact science that we and rigor that we must apply in order to ascertain who's worthy of funding, who gets access to funding. And to be honest, I found that season and that way of thinking incredibly harmful. Like I was just like, oh well, but then how do we really understand the work that's being done? Why this work?
George Suttles:Why this work now? And the importance of this work if we don't listen to folks who are in the work, are impacted by the work and just trust them and say, okay, if you believe this work is important then it must be. And so how do you honor that, right? How do you honor the experience in a way that would unlock philanthropy to be supportive as opposed to saying, well, oh, you don't fit into the rubric, so we're not gonna be able to support you.
Ron Rapatalo:What you're saying is really triggering, George. I'm not gonna name the organization at work that, but I remember without trying to name the org and this but I'll I'll give the I'll give the statement is to run this program, it's the cost of a Harvard MBA. Right? So there's a there's a monetary value. We we can think about what the monetary value is if I gave you the decade.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? And so this is, you know, in the broader social impact space, right, without naming a sector. And so the question is, why wouldn't those leaders who are being trained for that deserve that kind of, like, dollar value? Why was it then the conversation was we must make this more efficient, cheaper to do it? And then when it was then made cheaper, at least from from afar looking in, the program got watered down over the years.
Ron Rapatalo:Got watered down. I'll You know, just it's it's so Yeah.
George Suttles:It's crazy.
Ron Rapatalo:It's so and it just that stuff drives me nuts. I'm like, well, our communities, they'll deserve that? Really? At all?
George Suttles:Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's so yeah. Mean, listen.
George Suttles:Yeah. I mean, this will be the triggered episode where you and I just remember. I know. It's crazy. But I'll tell you.
George Suttles:So so it's that. I think it's the professionalization of philanthropy that makes it, that allows for this scientific method to creep in, right? I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any type of rigor or hard conversations about if there are limited resources, how do we support? But what I am saying is that who's at the table having those conversations and what are we measuring impact and having conversations about impact will inform where dollars go. And I think we were misinformed for a long, long time.
George Suttles:And some might argue we're still quite misinformed. So I think it's that. I think it's the professionalization of philanthropy that has caused a real problem. Second,
Ron Rapatalo:I
George Suttles:think who we've seen at the helm of institutional philanthropy for a long, long time. So I think there's, you know, a demographic race and gender component that really has played a role in, you know, how philanthropy has been shaped. I mean, back to, you know, the days of Rockefeller, Carnegie and others, right? The Vanderbilts.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
George Suttles:All of it. We saw and we saw and we understood philanthropy being driven by older white men who had, for lack of a better term, like a god complex about philanthropy. They were like, hey, are titans of industry. We know better than you. We're smarter than you.
George Suttles:So, in our philanthropy, we will impose and impress upon communities what we want to see, what we want to build, what we think you deserve and are worthy to have, right? And don't get me wrong, philanthropy has done, as someone who studied, who has a master's in philanthropic studies, who studied this as an academic and an intellectual, philanthropy has done a lot of good. But when you think about who was driving that philanthropy and informing that philanthropy, it wasn't folks who looked like me and you. It wasn't Yeah. It wasn't communities, underserved communities and communities of color.
George Suttles:It was, you know, older white men and then older white men and then, you know, later on older white women that were driving philanthropy. And we just had to hope that they cared about issues we cared about or we had to hope that they saw us as a community in order to get access to that large S. And the fact of the matter is, you know, that's definitely traumatized and done a lot of good but caused a lot of harm in terms of how we engage with institutional philanthropy.
Ron Rapatalo:Mhmm. Well, I'd love to hear, George, how you work in philanthropy today and what we were going back and forth about in terms of, like, what we've seen as the history of philanthropic approach, how you are approaching philanthropy differently based on what you've, like, were learning in your masters and then in some of the first places you worked. Yeah.
George Suttles:Yeah. I I do wanna take a step back though and quickly finish the trajectory because I think So it'll be when you met me, I was working in corporate, but I was a philanthropic adviser on the private wealth management side of the bank at US Trust Bank of America. So I was working with high net and ultra high net worth individuals and their families and I was helping them shape their philanthropic operations and their philanthropic strategy. And really the through line there was follow the money and the people who have access to it and try to shape and influence their decisions so that underserved communities, communities that we both care about could get a seat at the table and access those resources. So best believe anytime I'm around resources or people who have influence over resources, I'm speaking about communities that we both care about.
George Suttles:I'm introducing leaders that might not traditionally have a seat at those tables. I'm pulling up a chair and saying like, hey, if you care about impact and you care about these communities, you need to resource this leader and that leader. And so that's really been, when we talk about gatekeeping, I'm just like, right, well if I'm going to be a gatekeeper then I really do need to broker a diversity of relationships so that more and more people can get access to these dollars. So that's really been my goal, that's been my mandate, and that's really how I practice philanthropy now, right? It's just like generosity, abundance, connectivity with people who actually need access to those resources and are doing amazing work who might not typically get access to those resources.
George Suttles:I think now that's my mandate even as like a foundation trustee. I'm like, all right, let me get on these boards so that I can really influence the broader strategic decisions that need to be made in order to codify that thinking, right? Like I'll lift up a perfect example. Shout out to Ricky Mananzala and the crew at New York Foundation. I mean, we're really doing New York Foundation has traditionally done incredible work but now we're really rolling on all cylinders just in terms of unlocking our grant dollars.
George Suttles:We're spending more. We're actually going into 2026 spending 12% of our corpus. Wow. Unlocking our investment portfolio to look at impact and catalytic investments to support community. And that was in an orientation that New York Foundation had a few years ago.
George Suttles:Mean, that's why I really want to lift up Ricky's leadership because when he came in as president and CEO, I was the treasurer and investment committee chair and So we had already had a we just looked at each other and we said, how do we do this differently? How do we do this differently? How do we up the ante? And you know, so shout out to him. We've really done and continue to do some incredible work.
George Suttles:And that comes from not just the executive leadership and the staff leadership, but the board being the board being on board, right? Saying like yes, this is the mandate, our directive is clear, we need to get money out the door, we need to get more money out the door, we need to get more money out the door more quickly and the other 95, 85% of our assets that are just being invested in the capital markets, they need to be doing good for communities that we care about too. How do we unlock, how do we pull all of those levers? And that's really where my, where I'm at now. How do we pull all the levers, right?
George Suttles:Don't want to just be don't talk to me about that five, six, 7% grant making that you're doing. That's amazing, that's great, but what about every dollar needs to be working for good? And so what are the implications for thinking about that, you know, and what are the implications for not thinking about that and just thinking that spending five, six, 7% is enough?
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. So I have a curiosity. You know, I I see this trend over and over again. I I always like to use the term proximity. I'm sure Brian Stevenson didn't create term, but I often attribute because he talks about it a lot in his work.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? Mhmm. And noticing an easy pattern here. Folks like you, Ricky, shout out to my my homeboy, Robert Simmons the third, the National Grid Foundation, right, who you know, from what the work that I'm seeing he's doing, right, is certainly thinking about philanthropy and implementing it differently, that I would argue if you even had the lived experiences, the three of you and many others that I know who I think do this work well and are trying to really reshape it, it's harder to come in and really try to, like, do things differently. And so from a leadership standpoint, George, right, you're now not only, like, running a foundation, but you're also a foundation trustee and a board of a couple of other places.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? How would you inform, like, kind of the leadership trajectory, training, etcetera, to make sure that folks might have a bit more proximity and therefore empathy to think differently about how to, you know, fund our communities of color that I think more so now than ever are in desperate need of philanthropy support.
George Suttles:Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, think on the institutional side, you know, you sort of hit the nail right on the head, right? It's like bring in people who understand and can build bridges between philanthropic resources and community, right? So whether it's folks who have lived experience or it's folks who are adjacent to that experience but really have a deep empathy a deep sense where the work is being done and where the real leadership is, we need to get more of those people not just into programmatic leadership positions but at the trustee and the board level. That's opposite.
George Suttles:Mean, wow. That's why I join all these boards because I'm just like, oh, right. If I can be an advocate at the board level, right, the staff can do whatever they want. But if the mandate comes from the very, very top, then you know what's gonna happen? You're gonna hire an executive that cares about these things.
George Suttles:Then the executive's going to hire people who care about these things. You'd be surprised. You can shift culture quite quickly from the top down by literally going the board cares about being close to community, we care about you hiring people who are close to community, we care about, you know, getting money out the door, we care about, you know, ethical considerations in philanthropy, we care about trust based philanthropy, You push that down, then guess what? Everyone that becomes everyone's mandate at every level.
Ron Rapatalo:Wow.
George Suttles:We want you to change the nature of the way that you engage with grantees. We want grantees to be centered. Like, if that comes from the top, and I'll tell you, I've heard stories where it's literally the executive and staff like fighting the top, fighting the board to be like, hey, we need to do things differently. And the board being like, just being more conservative, being like, well no, what about this, what about that? And so, experienced that and understanding that, I'm like, Oh, why don't I just I'll tell the play.
George Suttles:Join a board. Get a lay of the land. Right? Begin to, you know, see where you can push, where you can pull, where you can take leadership position. Maybe a committee chair, maybe board chair, what have you.
George Suttles:And then begin to build your own pipeline of folks that you know are like minded and get them on the board with you. Then once you get kind of some critical mass on the board then you could be like, all right, here we go. This is what we're going to do now. We quote unquote democracy is still alive so we've got the votes. So here's what we're going to do.
George Suttles:We're going to begin to shift the board culture which in turn should shift staff culture, should shift programmatic culture, not from a management perspective but just from a broad strategic perspective. Like what do we really care about? What does this group care about? You know, to whom do we serve? And as a board member you can begin to ask those questions.
George Suttles:You can begin to interrogate and explore how the organization is doing its work and hopefully make make some major make some major shifts.
Ron Rapatalo:You're giving me my own leadership here. I think I've served at a number of, like, charter school I serve on two charter school boards now. I've served in nonprofit boards. I've been a part of the NYU Alumni Association board of directors for a while, like twenty seven years. And I think for me, I've certainly had leadership positions in these things.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? Have not yet been board chair because I see the amount of, like, time it takes
George Suttles:to
Ron Rapatalo:It be clear. Is an investment that I think I've been hedging on for a little bit, I think, probably more ready than it's in my mind. But I think the way you described it in order to set broader strategic direction for an org, especially, it just it's having in my mind think around my own leadership assets. Like, what I've always been really good at, I can bring people onto things. That's that's, like, super easy for me.
Ron Rapatalo:Like, I often get asked when I'm sitting on board like, Ron, you know other people? You know all the people. I'm like, I sure do. Fucking I can think of people. That's never the issue.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? But, like, stepping up and then bringing them all together, setting the position of power to then, alright. We're gonna set these things forward. So I'm curious. You're like, how does one join a foundation, Bart?
Ron Rapatalo:Imagine you just can't roll like, you know, you can't just roll like, so that for me is like because to get on that, like, it makes me then think about, like, what's very popular certainly in our spaces is, do you think there would be an appetite or that something exists for the creation of a foundation board training program to get folks who because for me, it's like, if you can't even get at the table, we're having a very fascinating conversation that takes in being, like, a one of one, of which there are a couple like y'all in this space, but, like, that's not enough to really be a game changer. You know what I'm saying?
George Suttles:Yeah. I think that's right. And I think yeah. I think it maybe is, like an organization like, you know, not to put anyone on the spot, maybe it's like a philanthropy New York or a nonprofit New York or some group that says, hey, this is something that we recognize. We need to build like a pipeline to foundation board leadership that's steeped in equity, that's steeped in access, that's steeped in social, economic, racial, or just intersectional justice more broadly.
George Suttles:Like how do we populate boards with those who have lived experience, have proximity, have a perspective that hasn't traditionally been heard in those rooms, right, who have a diversity of experience that might inform and fundamentally change the way we think about grant making, we think about philanthropy, we think about this organization. Like any other nonprofit industry vertical, it really is the same formula. Like have you been in philanthropy for a long time? Do you know how philanthropy traditionally works? Do you have good and new ideas?
George Suttles:And who do you know, right? But what if, to your point, what if we created a pipeline or a program where it was like this isn't going to be about who you know, this isn't whatever it is you don't know, we'll teach you but we really want to lean into what you do know and and and activate your power that already exists and expertise and intelligence that already exists so that when you come on the board, you feel confident enough to lean in Yeah. And really let your voice be heard.
Ron Rapatalo:We may need to talk offline to see how between the folks that you and I know this is something like as I watch this space, I you know, I've been a long time active Edlock member. I've seen these conversations with very well meaning folks in philanthropy talk to Edlock membership. Mean, you see there's tension. Like, it's like, you know you know, oftentimes, it's like, you know, the people that I'm seeing, like, in the space that I'm in are, like, people that really get it. And my opinion are like still trying to like told this line of like, well, I can only tell you so much.
Ron Rapatalo:And then when people push back on them, it's kind of like a well, don't go don't go take, you know, go at them that hard because they're the best of bet. If they're not willing if y'all gonna get it, they're throw staying in, buddy gonna, like, come into these rooms. And so for me, there's this tension of, like, how do we have these honest conversations about folks like you and the insider doing it without, like, trying to cut your head off and say, George, you're not doing enough, but at the same time, like, yo. This is what we're hearing. These are our frustrations so that we can all up end up getting better for our communities.
Ron Rapatalo:Because for me, that's a it's not something that's both on an individual level. I've been into enough, events where I've seen this tension. I'm like, oh, this is boy. Every time Philanthropy is a oh, boy.
George Suttles:Well, let me tell you. What I learned what I learned about there there's a few things that that resonate with me in this conversation that I just wanna uplift and make sure that I cover.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Please.
George Suttles:One, remember, you have to remember a lot of institutional wealth is also connected to, like, family legacy. Right? And so that's the piece that you have to navigate. It's like, oh, right. Like, the family legacy, the the the the familial legacy and how and how the foundation was formed and how it currently exists and moves through the world and engages with the world and grantees, other stakeholders is informed by the family, by the great great great great grandfather of x y z a b c, right?
George Suttles:So so don't forget about the legacies in form who gets access to those trustee opportunities, those those director seats. Right? So there's a family component. Even if it's just there are family members that that comprise a quarter, half, most of the board. Right?
George Suttles:Then that Yeah. That leaves limited seats for folks like me and you who are like, hey, I've got skills, I've got lived experience, I have connectivity, can I get a seat? They're like, well, you're not a family member, you're not a family, you're not an advisor to the family so you can't really get a seat, right? So I just wanna say that like there are a lot of those seats are spoken for and taken just because of the legacy in which those foundations developed. Two, like most nonprofit boards there's this there's this perception that like a small handful of skill sets are needed to do this work well.
George Suttles:Right? And stop me if you've heard this before, it's like we need a lawyer on the board. We need a CPA and a finance accounting person on the board. We need an investment person on the board. We need a subject matter expert on the board, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
George Suttles:So it's really about what skills and competencies do we value as most useful for board members to have? And what we're talking about is well expand that understanding of skills and competencies that are high value and important and you'll get a board that looks totally different, right? And then thirdly, the fact of the matter is, philanthropy, institutionalized philanthropy, philanthropy in the context of private wealth, philanthropy is a part of a comprehensive wealth management strategy. And I need people to understand that because philanthropy, as we understand it, as it has been institutionalized
Ron Rapatalo:That's right.
George Suttles:Was never meant to be transformational, radical, steep injustice, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. You have people who come into the space who try to try to right the ship and make it about that, But its beginnings were came out of the tax code. Came out of wealth hoarding. Came out of a sense of hey, like think about it. Why would you why would the 5% why would 5% be the IRS minimum payout?
George Suttles:Like who had a seat at the table when they were deciding the tax code that drives a lot of philanthropic activity? It wasn't people who looked like me and you. Yep. It wasn't people who were underserved who were trying to claw their way out of poverty. It was folks who were trying to develop philanthropy as a comprehensive, as a part of a comprehensive wealth management strategy.
George Suttles:And then, the charity piece, the social impact piece would be a nice to have, would be a byproduct of that. But it really, they didn't center impact in when they thought about philanthropy as it pertains to the tax code. They centered it being a part of a wealth management strategy. We really have right. To
Ron Rapatalo:you've heard Uplifting
George Suttles:You know what I mean? Like we really have to understand I'll tell you this. If, and this is something that I've been like, I've been having conversations about this and I've been like whispering about it in the mainstream a little bit. Is if philanthropy, and shout out to Darren Issam and my friends at Center for Effective Philanthropy, Alicia, who's an amazing researcher who's looked at this. If philanthropy thinks that endowments are good and important philanthropic tools, why not endow your ecosystem of grantees?
George Suttles:Set them up to have their own endowments so that they can afford more spaciousness, more time for strategy, so that they have an asset that they can leverage for
Ron Rapatalo:Oh shit, you hit the nail Brother, on the
George Suttles:brother, oh endowment, endowment, endowment, then if I'm a nonprofit leader give me one. Like make investments in building the infrastructure so that I can leverage an endowment or a large pool of capital in the way that you do, right? So don't just give me a pile of money, right? Because a lot of people, CP did a research report that said that a lot of nonprofits that received big MacKenzie Scott gifts, the first thing they did was they paid down their debts, they looked at like pay equity work so that they could pay their people, right? Shout out to Rusty Stahl, fund the people.
George Suttles:And then once they took care of the infrastructure and the operational stuff and they refined their revenue model and they hired development folks so that they could really, you know, sort of fill the annual budget, the next thing they did with the rest of the money is that they seeded an endowment or some type of long term asset that they could grow, that they could leverage for strategic opportunities. Or conversely, would allow them to be more resilient when times were tough. Yeah. And so that's my thing. You can whatever call you want.
George Suttles:You can call it an endowment. You can call it a long term operating pool. You can call it a strategic reserve. You can call it a strategic fund. It's an asset that nonprofit leaders can leverage, that they can grow, right, so that they can make investments on their own terms.
George Suttles:And so if institutional philanthropy really does believe, then we need to start making endowment building as a grant making strategy a part of the conversation. Because you have an endowment and you seem pretty happy. Trust me, I'd be happier if I had one. So set me up to be success to successfully manage an endowment, make infrastructure investments, and then at the end of the road, give seed an endowment for me. Yeah.
George Suttles:So that this organization can thrive and flourish just like you're thriving and flourishing philanthropy. Like having an endowment is great. It's awesome. You know? And so we wanna be awesome too.
George Suttles:All we wanna do is participate in the awesomeness. Let us have an endowment. That really would change the game in a significant way because now, you know, now you have an asset. And now you're really like, oh, okay. Like, we can do something special with this.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Are there any philanthropic orgs that are doing endowment building in this space currently moving in that direction to your knowledge? Like,
George Suttles:Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. Was a part I was a part of some work that Bridgespan did a couple of years ago that was looking at Robert Wood Johnson Foundation as a case study for endowment building strategies as a part of their grant making. But it's mainstream concept. That's yeah. Many philanthropies will not do that.
George Suttles:They will not make gifts to endowment. They will not make gifts like big general operating gifts that can then be used to build a reserve. They're just like program. Ron, we're we're still convincing philanthropies to give general operating support.
Ron Rapatalo:I know. Yeah. I did. It's bananas to
George Suttles:that team. Do they folks are giving out endowments or ceding endowments? They're not. But the fact of the matter is it's like what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Right?
George Suttles:So if institutional philanthropy believes that endowments are good, they're, we're constantly trying to protect them, that's usually our excuse, right? Well we can't pay more than x y z percent every year because we have to protect the corpus. We have to protect the endowment.
Ron Rapatalo:Same higher conversation in higher ed. My god.
George Suttles:Right, Well, you think it's so it's so precious, right, and it's so precious and it's so useful and it's it's gonna be, you know, and and and it's and it's such an impact that you're that you're wrapping your arms around it and you're protecting it and that's your excuse, then give us one. I want one too. Yeah, Because if I have exactly an endowment, then imagine what I could do. Imagine the type of community investments I could make. Imagine the types of imagine the imagine how that would open up an organization's imagination around what's possible, right?
George Suttles:Like and there's research that shows that it works and that nonprofit organizations, if you over resource them, they will manage those assets prudently and keep community at the center of all of their financial and investment decisions. And isn't that really what we're talking about? Is that like who's being centered in these investment philanthropic and strategic decisions? One could argue it's not communities. And so if you really want to do that, then relinquish the dollars and let other people play in the endowment space.
Ron Rapatalo:Boy, George. Boy, if that would be I think my heart my mind just blew up because that would be such a game changer because on an anecdotal level, I know of entities that have gotten into having an asset that now they want to start shaping into something that will allow them to have something that they can take a portion of, potentially, the asset to fund other things in their community or for whatever. Right? And so it's just something just for me, like, the simple math of it all is, like, we all kind of do that. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:You have a savings account. You take a percentage. You earn money. It just like, for me, like but you need a pot so that you can keep the corpus active enough. And let's be clear.
Ron Rapatalo:We would be remiss not to talk about the history of being an American the way that wealth was was built. Like, it for me, like, if you don't wanna have that conversation like, well, we made our money, like, clean and legal. I'm like, let's be clear. Like, most
George Suttles:of y'all mean, it's it's a you
Ron Rapatalo:we've gotta have an uncomfortable conversation about how y'all earn your money.
George Suttles:Right. Right. Right. No. You you lift up something incredibly important so that how does how does you know, and there are there are tremendous people, tremendous thought leaders in this space.
George Suttles:I'm you know, Edgar Villanueva comes to mind. Shout out to Edgar Yeah. The homie. Mhmm. He like, it's about repair.
George Suttles:Right? It's about reparative approaches to philanthropy and asset transfer has to be one of them, recognizing that these are these may be ill gotten gains. And so how do you, in the spirit of repair, transfer assets to communities that have been harmed? Who also built this country on their backs, right? Who have contributed way more than they've asked for and they've been harmed.
George Suttles:Like how do we think about that? And giving a organization $100,000 you know, over two years isn't going to repair a thing. But if you provided them with an asset or you seeded an asset then at least that's a step in the right direction. And let me add a nuance here.
Ron Rapatalo:Please.
George Suttles:The nuance I'm gonna add to this repair piece is that not to mention that black and brown nonprofits have been chronically under resourced
Ron Rapatalo:Oh my lord have mercy, yes.
George Suttles:For decades. So you wanna talk about repair, then folks are owed compound interest. Right? Like, you've chronically under resourced me, asked me to do more in proximity to communities that are under duress, that are underserved, and then I get penalized because I don't do more with less. So let's have a conversation about not just asset transfer but then over resourcing these black and brown nonprofit leaders because there's, because we'll never be able to play catch up but we need to anchor our philanthropic practices in this historical context.
George Suttles:Like you've been starving as a black or brown, you know, nonprofit or a nonprofit leader of color. You've been starving our communities, starving our organizations for decades. Yeah. And then we get penalized and closed off from opportunities because we're not serving enough people or we're quote unquote underperforming or we're not doing this. We can't generate the reports that you need to show your board.
George Suttles:It's like, just give me more money. That's it.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. It it comes down that simply. Right? And I mean, it just it's it for me, it just it's the conversation of philanthropy, charity, welfare. It's like we victimize those of us that don't have a lot, that it's somehow our fault ultimately for being in our situations without them looking at the system.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? Then because then when you look at the system and the way the system's been created, then what do we decide to do? And for me, there's often a when the system gets examined, it's like, well, from my experience, like, well, we know about it, but, like, we don't want it to be publicized because then I'm gonna feel embarrassed and shamed on it. I don't wanna be operating from, like, shame and embarrassment on these things because I don't wanna look bad. My ego doesn't want no.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm so let's not let's not talk about it.
George Suttles:Yeah. I mean, it's it's wild. So, I mean, it's just like we have to continue to push, to press institutional philanthropy, private wealth. We have continue to not only lift up leaders, but then hold philanthropy to account. Yes.
George Suttles:And then the other thing I would say is, you know, and we've known this for a long, long time, communities that we care about, nobody's coming to save us. So how do we think about leveraging our own resources? Yes. Building our own generosity infrastructure, whether it's mutual aid, whether it's, you know, thinking about cooperative economic models, you know, employee ownership models Yes. Whether it's thinking about community banking models, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
George Suttles:There's it's got to be we've got to play we've got to run both plays, right? It's got to be like, all right, like insiders have to push for change, outsiders have to continue to advocate for change as well. But we also got to just start building our own things. Yes, Build our own things in the image of our ancestors because we already know what we
Ron Rapatalo:need to do.
George Suttles:We need to focus on community. We need to focus on collectivism. We need to focus on neighbors helping neighbors, neighbors protecting neighbors. And we're seeing that in Minnesota. We're seeing that in other communities.
George Suttles:That's we've lived that in other communities.
Ron Rapatalo:That's right.
George Suttles:And so ain't nobody gonna take care of us but us. And so as much as we wanna move these anchor philanthropic institutions, yeah, that work is important and it's work that's worth doing, but we also got to just start building our own things. Like, okay, what do we want this to look like? Let's build it. You know?
George Suttles:And I've been participating in a little bit of that work too, right? Because it's got to be, it's not a either or proposition. It's a and both.
Ron Rapatalo:Like Yeah.
George Suttles:Let's just, you know, let's just get our money together and, start supporting nonprofits that we know are doing great work that are being overlooked. That's all we can do right now. And then maybe we can get other people to to to join in. But that's what we got. Right?
George Suttles:Like, and let's let's just do that, you know?
Ron Rapatalo:Well, George, we're at the time of the interview of our episode where I ask you the Ronderings question. What lesson or value do you wanna share with the audience?
George Suttles:Man, like, when in doubt, just I would say love and imagination. Radical love and radical imagination are the things that we need to hold on to. Right? Radical love because we are in unprecedented, sounds so cliche, but it is, we are in unprecedented times, we are in crazy times, so radical love is needed, right? And I also would say radical imagination just because we have to imagine a future where we are thriving.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
George Suttles:Where democracy is still alive and well. Where our children are thriving and are safe and are comfortable and are surrounded by a loving community, right? Love that. If we don't imagine those things then we can't aspire to them. And if we don't aspire to them, how do we formulate hope in our souls and in our spirit?
George Suttles:So radical love, radical imagination, let's do that, let's experience that in community with each other. And brother, I'm just grateful for you, I'm grateful for our friendship, I'm grateful for our brotherhood, and I'm grateful to always be able to have these conversations with you, so.
Ron Rapatalo:George, you just orated for the last almost hour, man. I can see how you have roots in the church because if if anyone hasn't told you that, like, you have a a preaching presence, obviously, in this conversation, I'm just like Yeah.
George Suttles:I didn't mean to get on my on my soapbox or my pulpit. It's
Ron Rapatalo:it's inspiring, man. It it it's Hot me out.
George Suttles:So I I had to do it. So
Ron Rapatalo:Well, before we end our time together, how do people find you? What would you like to promote?
George Suttles:Yeah. I I am I'm in the what do they say? I'm in the hood. I ain't hard to find. I'm in Bensley, Brooklyn.
George Suttles:In Harlem. On the can find me on LinkedIn. Please, please, please LinkedIn with me. You can find me at commonfund, commonfund.org. You can find me there.
George Suttles:You can find me New York Foundation, Mertz Gilmore Foundation. And I'm just connected to many, many other nonprofits. If you really wanna find me holler at Ron, he knows, he got all my information. So that's
Ron Rapatalo:It'll where I could see be on the episode.
George Suttles:It'll be on the So please feel free to I always want to support, especially nonprofit leaders, nonprofit leaders of color, black nonprofit leaders. I just I want to make sure that we are resourced and that we are resources to each other. So
Ron Rapatalo:Well, George, I will give the wise words of one of my sports heroes, Deion Sanders, is that on Ronderings, we always come in hot with amazing guests like you, George Suttles. So peace, everybody.
George Suttles:Amazing. Thank you for having me.
Ron Rapatalo:If there's one thing George makes clear, it's this. Transformation wouldn't happen by accident. It require insiders pushing institutions to move faster, spend differently, and rethink sits at the table. The fire communities building our own infrastructure, mutual aid, cooperative models, community banking, employee ownership, is waiting for rescue has never been a strategy. When George talks about foundations spending beyond the standard five payout, he challenges boards to unlock 95 of their assets for doing good.
Ron Rapatalo:He calls out decades of chronic under resourcing of black and brown nonprofits. He's not speaking theoretically. He's speaking as someone sitting inside the rooms where decisions get made. This episode isn't just about philanthropy, about stewardship, about accountability, it's about legacy. This conversation challenge you, share with someone who controls resources, because the future of generosity will be built intentionally.
Ron Rapatalo:The table is only expanding if we expand it. Peace. Thank you for listening to today's Ronderings. I enjoyed hanging out with me and my guests, and I hope you leave with something worth chewing on. If it made you smile, think, or even roll your eyes in a good way, pass it along to someone else.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm Ron Rapatalo and until next time, keep promdering, keep laughing, and keep becoming.