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If your marriage is divided, your parenting will be undermined.
Did you think parenting was suppose to work straight out of the box? We did, too. But soon, we figured out we were missing critical, but simple, tools to make our marriage, parenting, and family work. "Batteries Not Included" equips you to build a strong and resilient family culture so we grow the relationships we dream of with the people matter.
If you're rolling your eyes at your
partner, you're gonna divorce them.
Hey, it's this Skrobots and you're
listening to batteries, not included
strong and resilient family culture.
Doesn't just magically happen, but
it requires hard work, intentional
leadership and constant culture building
episode two, September 22nd, 2022.
Uh, we back y'all we're back.
Welcome back to the show.
Thanks for being with us today.
We are continuing our conversation
from last week, but in a different
direction as last week, we were talking
a lot about how it requires us to set
expectations and boundaries for our kids.
If we want our kids to step into freedom.
But the issue is if we don't have a
foundation in our lives in our marriage.
Then all that work of trying to
fix our kids is gonna be for not.
So what brought us to that place?
Rachel?
Have we always had the perfect
shining, glorious marriage.
We, I mean, I don't, I don't know if we
have we ever had a disagreement or fight?
No, no, we're perfect.
We almost named it.
The perfect parenting podcast lies.
Lies, lies, lies.
No, I always say, um, it took five years
for me to really love our marriage.
And so the answer to your question is no,
we have worked super hard to be in the
place that we are in our marriage today.
As Lucas said, last episode, we are
about to celebrate 11 years of marriage.
November 1st cannot believe it.
But the first five years were really hard.
First five years for our
marriage was really hard.
We had to learn a lot and a lot
of that was, you know, year three.
Um, we were just thrown into.
Counseling because we were in a
pretty rough spot in our marriage and
realized we had a lot of unresolved
issues, probably that we not probably
things we brought in from our own
childhood, our own upbringing, our
own wounds, that then were projected
upon each other within the marriage.
And, um, When we started working on
our marriage and those things started
to get exposed and we were like, okay,
there's some cracks in our foundation.
Yes.
You know, a lot of times people
will say, Oh, you know, the
honeymoon phase is amazing the
first year and a half is amazing.
I disagree.
It was, it was the hardest
time for me because I was, you
know, coming into our marriage.
My parents had just divorced
right before we got married.
Gosh, um, basically everything
that I knew about family.
I imploded or exploded both maybe.
Um, and I had a lot of hurt
and a lot of wounds coming in.
And I think again, with the whole
theme of batteries, not included, I
thought so much of this would just
come naturally while I love this man.
And he loves me and
we've chosen each other.
So you know what, all those
things will fall into place.
It's gonna work.
Month after month realizing that is not
true, but I have no idea how to fix it.
And I have no idea how to turn
towards him and fight against these
issues that are continually arising
as opposed to fighting against him,
because that's what feels right.
Like things don't feel right.
On the inside.
So we all wanna blame
something or someone.
And so my punching bag, my person
to blame was you and wow.
That was really bad for our marriage.
And, and then of course, as our kids
are starting to go from sweet little
infant ages to, you know, having their
own thoughts and opinions and their
individuality and you know, all of
that is so normal, but just trying
to bring order to our family that's.
You know, prove to be very, almost
impossible because what's broken and
what's not in unity is, is the marriage
you and I, and it was like, you know,
that, I remember bringing this up with
our counselor and, and her being like,
well, that's kind of like secondary.
We can talk about the parenting stuff
and kind of getting that underway.
But first and foremost, we gotta fix
you and Lucas, you two have to see
each other as being on, on a team.
And, um, She was right.
and so that kind of began our
journey of like, okay, how is it?
You and me linking arms against
problems, not me against you.
Yeah, I remember it was, I think
it was actually, it wasn't three
years and it was four or five years.
And I think we be, I mean, we hit
walls all the way through, but
once we started into counseling,
I think it was five years.
Yeah, it was right before it was right.
Oh, that's true.
You're right.
It was almost before a fifth year Ann.
But one thing that you said it's you had
a hard time, probably both of us did.
How, how do we turn towards each
other and link arms with one another,
rather than fight against each other.
Mm-hmm and that there was a, you know,
as we went about trying to set boundaries,
as we try to set healthy expectations
for our kids, we, we probably didn't
even have language that's, that's what
we're supposed to do with a two year.
I remember when in those years
there was a lot of division between
us of how do we set boundaries?
I remember, I remember one time.
I mean, our oldest was
probably probably two.
We were in, we were in BIE and
we're trying to figure out like he
is just constantly melting down and
we're trying to figure out, do we.
Give spankings, do we
discipline we're reading online?
Like what?
Trying to figure out what to do,
how to do this we're new parents.
We have no idea.
And I remember reading a, an article
that was saying that timeouts are just
as psychologically damaging as discipline
or whatever, and we just felt so stuck.
And then later on, as we kind
of went down a road of no, we're
gonna, we're gonna discipl.
We're gonna set healthy boundaries.
I remember there was a lot of
tension even between us where our
kids became triangulated between us.
So triangulated.
It means instead of us being connected and
having, and being on the same page, it was
the, the kid gets pulled in in some ways,
begin to mediate between our relationship.
if there's problems, if there's
division and cracks between us and
our marriage, the kids will either
insert themselves in to try to bring
a level of unity to the parents.
Mm-hmm or we begin to weaponize
our kids and we pull them in.
And that kid becomes a wedge
between our marriage because
there's distrust in the marriage.
And so I remember there were times
where like, man, like this behavior.
Totally unacceptable.
We need to discipline.
And you were like, no
way, we're not doing that.
And, and so then you're
just at an impasse, right?
And if your kid, if your kid is smart,
they're gonna divide and conquer.
They're gonna say, well, I can
turn this to my favor and I
can get away with what I want.
Yeah.
They're incredibly smart.
Just as we will continue to say,
they can feel what's going on.
They can feel that mom and
dad are on the same page.
They can feel.
when there are cracks in the
foundation of your house, um, which
your house is just your marriage,
you know, or your family unit.
Um, and so they play on.
And it's not because they're doing
it maliciously it's because they
don't know it's them trying to cope.
It's them trying to figure
out what's what's okay.
What's not okay.
Okay.
Going back to the boundary
thing, like what is okay.
What isn't okay.
Sometimes, you know, I can go to dad for
this, and sometimes I go to mom for this
and it's like, that is what we fought to
avoid and to, you know, push out because
that is by definition, a house divided.
Yeah.
You know, it's little, those
little things that we allow in of.
Oh, well, mom always says yes and dad
says no, or I can go to mom for this.
Or mom did say no, so I'm gonna go to dad.
It's like those little
things we have to catch them.
And usually that happens because
there is a disconnect and
unhealth between mom and dad.
And that was what was going on between
you and I, um, because you know,
really just very, um, I guess, just
to say it clearly, like, we didn't
know how to have healthy conflict.
We didn't know how to deal with any
sort of stressors in a healthy way.
Mm-hmm um, and I didn't know how
to enter into that and have that
connection with you of like, oh,
this conflict that we're having can
lead to connection and intimacy, but.
Conflict is I have to rise up and get
really big and, or just really get,
really get really small and shut down.
Mm-hmm because I don't know how to
engage in this conflict with you.
I didn't see that done super healthily.
And so I didn't know how to do it.
And you, again, you think.
It's just gonna happen because I
love this person and oh my goodness.
It's like, but now it's
not, it's not true.
Um, and we learned that pretty quick,
right out the gate, you know, it
wasn't this for a year and a half.
It was, you know, right away.
And we did have so much love for
one another, but we were like,
we have a lot, we need to work
on, we need to fight for this.
Um, and so yeah, going into about,
you know, right before our five
year anniversary is when we really
went after it through counsel.
And started learning really unhealthy
cycles that we had in our communications
and, um, how unhealthy it was.
And if we didn't intervene yeah.
And, and really break these cycles, then
it was, it was proven to lead to divorce.
What was, and we're gonna get to those,
those cycles, cuz there's four different
cycles that mm-hmm that people can be.
but you've kind of touched it on it a
couple times, this imbalance within our
relationship, what was it specifically
that you really felt back then?
And sometimes it's so kind of
like pops up in our conflict.
This feeling that you have, can you share,
will you be okay if you share totally.
Yeah.
What it, that you feel were
feeling or that cycle that we have?
Uh, yeah, my, I think my biggest
thing was like, I had this power
imbalance of thinking you anything.
Well, I don't know.
I just had this power imbalance where I
felt like a child and I looked at you.
It's not it's it sounds weird.
But I looked at you as
like a, a parental figure.
Yeah.
And so then like, yeah, there was this.
I'm inferior.
You're superior and I'm lagging behind
always trying to catch up to you, but
then it was really unhealthy the way that
I just, you know, when you would try to
talk about things, I would take it as
like a personal attack and think, well,
like, stop treating me like a child.
I can, you know, do you know X, Y,
and Z, you don't have to mm-hmm but
it, and then you were stuck because
you're like, well, I'm not doing that.
I'm just trying to.
Chat, but talk about these really
unhealthy things or, you know,
this problem that's coming up and I
couldn't see past like this child,
father parental relationship.
Um, that was a, that was a huge thing
because then I, it was like, I wanted
to lean on that, cuz I wanted to
like you to take care of everything.
Because I felt powerless in my life
to really like execute ideas that
I had or things I wanted to do.
And so it was like, I wanted that.
So I guess that goes back to,
I mean, probably codependent.
Yeah.
We're to, we were totally
in a codependent 100%.
And so then I wanted that.
It was like, oh, he'll take care of it.
But then it was like, oh,
I can't do anything if you
know, it's, it's always Lucas.
So then it would like come back around
and be to your disadvantage, cuz then I'd
be like, well you do everything for me.
And I can't do anything for myself.
yeah, we were in this yeah.
This cycle.
Yeah.
Where.
And like when you're, when we were
in the cycle, I didn't, I didn't
think that we were in a codependent
relationship, but we were, and you
know, I remember there are days where
if I was busy, you were like, well,
what, what am I supposed to do today?
Yeah.
And I was like, I, I don't know,
do whatever you want, babe.
But, and then as you said, I am I'm
as you know, husband, I'm trying.
Trying to love my wife, like, okay,
how do, how do you love your wife?
Okay, well, you love
her through serving her.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna serve her well,
and the more take things off my plate is
how I feel like you would phrase it a lot.
I was, would always be trying
to take things off your plate.
And the more that we got into
our unhealthy rhythm and cycle
of this codependent relationship,
the more volatile things were.
I was like, man, I, I just
need to step up as a husband.
I need to love her.
And I need to take more off her plate
and that resulted in you feeling more and
more powerless in me having more and more
power you feeling like child and feeling
me as the adult, because you weren't
empowered to do things because I was
always trying to serve and love thinking
that this was going to solve the problem.
And I think that was one massive thing.
Yeah.
Specifically for us at least.
And so then it's a cycle and
you just run this cycle on.
Until you break that cycle and they're
like, oh, you know, here's another way
I can actually get outta this cycle.
And I'm powerful to
see the change in this.
And I remember, I remember like, as
you were talking, I just remember
sitting with our counselor and we were
talking about this and she said, Lucas,
you need to do less for your wife.
I was like, um, excuse me.
I don't, because it's opposite
to what we're told, you
know, it's like serve your.
I feel like you say this a lot.
And so maybe you can talk on it,
but it's like, you know, serve
your wife and I, don't not do
things for her, but yeah, yeah.
Serve her.
And it's a class it's, it's classical
in at least in the Christian world.
When you know here
husbands love your wives.
What does that mean?
Well, you need to, you need to surf her.
You.
Wash the dishes you need to take
care of the kids you need to.
I mean, that's all great.
It's all great.
It's all good.
And I still, you know, still, you
still do that, but when we are in this
codependent relationship and I would
be doing that, I'd be taking more and
more offer plate thinking that I'm
helping, but really I was hurting you.
I was hurting our relationship because
I wasn't treating you as a, as an
interdependent, as an individual
who was, was strong and able to.
And I didn't believe that about myself.
That was something that through
counseling, you know, oftentimes when
you go through counseling in marriage,
it is a lot of individual personal
work that ends up coming up because
we get to talk about our upbringing.
We get to talk about, you know,
family dynamics and, you know,
different relationships that you are
in that really do, uh, form mm-hmm
you into the person that you are.
And so I didn't know
how to be an individual.
I didn't know how to think for myself.
I didn't know how to.
Step out in the things
that I wanted to do.
And so, yeah, then that goes back to,
you know, you would go and do your thing
and I'd be like, what am I gonna do?
I did.
I, I literally thought like, oh, you
get in marriage and you, I don't know.
I just think all these
things just fell into place.
I thought, you know, you're
gonna figure it out and.
Or, you know, I was like, well,
you just have kids right away.
And so then that's what I need to do.
And that will fix this, you know,
imbalance or this like powerless feeling.
And no, it just, it just perpetuates
because you don't go to the root
of what's going on, then it's
just gonna keep producing fruit
and that fruit is unhealthy.
And so I, I had to learn how to be
powerful in my own life and be like, I
can do these things, which sounds so.
Elementary, but that was true.
I had to go back to allow some
wounds and healing in my own heart
to be like, okay, I'm an individual.
So I, I actually, I can
do things by myself.
we mentioned the word triangulation, but
when you said, you know, I guess like
what, what do you do when you get married?
Oh, you have kids it's like that.
Having kids it's trying, it's really
trying to triangulate that kid.
Into your own, it's into the marriage,
but it's really into yourself
because you're trying to fill that
void of searching for purpose and
individuality and identity with the kid.
And then if you don't address these things
early, these cycles grow and grow and
grow and grow until your empty nesters.
And you realize that, man, I've just
given 25 years to raising kids in
search of trying to find myself.
and I have empty home and I
realize, I don't know who I am or
how to interact with my spouse.
I remember again, I remember sitting
with our counselor and her saying
what we're talking about here.
You guys are not even five years in.
She's like, I will sit with
people who are in their fifties.
They're empty nesters.
They've been married and in these cycles
for 20 to 30 years, gosh, and their kids
are gone and they're looking at each
other from across the dining room table.
And.
Who are you?
How do I, how do I talk to you?
Because they've just gotten
comfortable in those cycles or
they learned to live with it.
And she's like, it's a lot harder to
break those cycles 20 to 25 years in.
I mean, you can do it if you're
determined, but you know, what you're
doing now is going to save you a
lot of heartache, you know, down
the line and I can attest to it.
You know, the last six years have
been my favorite years of our marriage
and have been the most beautiful.
Just the most like peaceful years, because
we really did the hard work of working on
what we thought was gonna be like, okay.
Working on marriage.
But really we had, it was like a
lot of individual work and personal
work that then allowed us to be in
the marriage and be our, our best, I
don't know, quote unquote, best selves
in who we were originally designed
to be in our marriage because we
did the hard, hard work ourselves.
And we, I don't know why
we don't think that that.
I didn't think that that was what
would be the solve, you know?
Yeah.
We, we buck up against, you
know, therapy or counseling.
It's just so bad, but really
it's, it was it's it's so needed.
We need these.
Well, I think if with, with
counseling, there, there are good
counselors and there's bad counselors.
There's some counseling that is
counterproductive in some ways, if.
Like one of the things that we
really learned in our counseling
was not just, what are you feeling?
Which that was, you know, a big thing
for you of identifying your feelings.
But if you, if you stop at what am I
feeling and my feelings, my feelings,
my feelings, is this making me happy?
What do I feel?
You you'll lead?
You'll lead down bad road, but if you
bring it back to, okay, is there evidence.
Of why I feel this way is what
I is, what I feel true or am, am
I seeing things in a skewed way?
Am I, am I only seeing
half of the picture?
And so we had a, we had a really
incredible therapist, but I think,
uh, having some therapy is better
than no therapy and, and statistics
show that I believe it's, you're
40% less likely to get divorce.
if you go to premarital counseling with
a trained therapist before marriage.
So if you, before marriage, if you
actually go to real therapist, you're
gonna be 40% less likely to get a divorce.
So we highly recommend it.
Oh yeah.
But I think today, Rachel,
you sent me this clip by Dr.
Jordan Peterson, and it's gonna kind
of segue us into the next segment.
It's uh, it's one of our favorite,
favorite topics to talk about.
And so, um, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna roll this.
Clip's a, here's a good
predictor of whether or not
you're going to get divorced.
You go into the therapist's
office and you talk the two of
you talk and you roll your eyes.
that'll predict if you roll, if
you're rolling your eyes at your
partner, you're gonna divorce them.
Why it's a disgusted response, right?
It's something like I'm
lifting you up with my eyes and
throwing you into the garbage.
Hmm.
It's something like that.
But eye rolling is a great predictor
of the probability of divorce.
So, so it's something to keep in mind
with regards to your relationships.
Like if you're starting to develop some
contempt or some disgust, you bloody
well better get on that right away,
because that's a bad road to go down.
And so well, so.
Well, so then you have to do whatever
you have to do not to go down.
I love that part.
There's just no other answer.
And so, well, you gotta do whatever you
have to do to not go down that road.
And it is so true.
You fight to the death to get
that out of your marriage because
I promise you, Ugh, contempt.
Oh yeah.
Oh my gosh.
That's so I just, I, I, man, I think about
five first five years, there was a ton of.
Mm, well, for me well,
I, I probably had it too.
I probably had it.
I just probably hit it
behind your back maybe.
Yeah.
I just am very, uh, obvious about
how I feel about things on my face.
So I know I did that.
I had no idea, but it was yeah.
Lifting.
Your spouse up with your eyes and throwing
them back down it's oh, but we have to,
we have to make it that big of a deal and
be, be as far away from it as possible,
or else we'll allow those things in.
And then we wonder why we are so
disconnected from our spouse, but
we've allowed all these little, you
know, what we would call little foxes
to come and spoil the vineyard yeah.
Of your marriage.
And we don't catch them, you
know, which we are so urged to do.
Is catch those little foxes that try
to come in and spoil the vineyard.
Well, that is, you know, little moments
of eye rolling or talking negatively
about your spouse behind their back and
your annoyances and getting defensive.
Mm.
So we should probably just
go into this next part.
Yeah.
So you, you said the, uh, the talking
behind the back and we've, since we've
mentioned it multiple times, triangulating
your girlfriend or another person of
the opposite sex into your relationship.
You're now talking about the
hardness of your marriage with,
you know, in an UN uncovering way.
Yeah, because there is,
there is health too.
Okay.
I'm sitting with a girlfriend
I'm really struggling.
And will you pray with me like that?
I would be strengthened in my
marriage and encourage that.
You're you're whoever you're sitting
across from it's coming from a
place of I'm fighting for your
marriage and I'm fighting for you.
Yes.
Yes.
So yes, like there it is not,
oh, don't ever talk about it.
It's like, who are you sharing?
You're not going like, are you
going to someone because you want
them to validate you and oh yeah.
He is awful complaining and complain
with you and grumble, or are you going
to them because you really are desperate
for help and you want them to speak
the truth to you and speak the word of
God over you and pray with you and keep
you accountable, um, call you higher.
And those are the questions you
need to ask yourself because I,
I I've heard both where like,
well, what am I supposed to do?
Not tell people when I'm struggling?
No.
But it's difference.
There's a difference if you're going to
someone and you're just complaining and
you're ripping your spouse, a new one
with your friend and your friend's like,
oh yeah, your spouse is a total idiot.
You know?
Let me help you rip him a new one
or for any, or then she joins in
and talks about her spouse or yeah.
You know, why, why her marriage is awful?
Oh, it's not gonna produce
anything, any good fruit.
It's just gonna cause you
to complain and grumble.
And it's going to only further inflame
the problems of your marriage rather
than having someone call, call us higher.
And that's what's needed,
especially when it comes to these
four behaviors and we learned.
Many moons ago, these four
behaviors that will absolutely
absolutely destroy your marriage.
And we already started touched on
the first one, which is contempt.
I'm gonna read the actual definition.
This is from Gottman, John Gottman.
We learned a lot from his
teaching and his Institute, and
here's his definition, contemp.
Is when communication is in this
state, we truly mean it to treat
others with disrespect, to mock them
with sarcasm, ridicule them, call them
names, mimic or use body language such
as rolling or scoffing, the target
eye rolling eye rolling or scoffing.
Thank you, babe.
The target of contempt is to make, is
made to feel despised and worthless.
So if I'm acting contemptuous,
I am using sarcasm.
I'm treating you with disrespect.
I'm ridiculing you, I'm using
making jokes at your expense.
I'm calling you names.
I'm mocking your body
language and oh gosh.
Oh my gosh.
It makes me feel so gross.
You know, copy.
Like when, you know, when you're,
you're in that argument with, with
your spouse and we've done it and.
They say something and you just like,
kind of like, repeat it back to them in
like this mocking tone that is contempt.
The eye rolling.
Ugh.
That is contempt.
And, and this is the greatest
predictor of divorce and this, right?
This is it.
This is, we do talk about marriage
on the show and we will talk about
marriage on this show because it's about.
Is the foundation of family.
If you don't have a healthy marriage,
how are you gonna have a healthy family?
Um, however, this is not a marriage
counseling show or not marriage therapist.
However,
if you don't address this,
your marriage will be broken.
And if you break your marriage,
you're gonna break your family.
If your marriage is broken.
It is going to hurt and affect your kids.
You're going to have a, a, we you're gonna
have an unhealthy culture in your family.
You you'll still have a strong culture.
It just won't be the culture
that you want to have.
So contempt is the, the absolute
first and most dangerous behavior.
The second behavior, babe,
do you wanna cover this one?
What criticism criticism is
you don't have to necessarily.
Well, I'm just gonna read it just easier.
Criticizing your partner is
different than offering a
critique or voicing a complaint.
The latter two are about specific issues.
Whereas the former is an ad Hom.
a Hoon yeah.
Attack at Hom attack, which
is what ad hominin the former.
Um, it's just like.
Attacking them and calling the name,
attacking their, their character.
Yes.
Instead of like a critique, Hey, when
you do this, made me feel like this.
Like, is there a way we can fix that?
That's critique like, Hey, you
were talking a little rough with
the kids, like what's going on.
Yes.
That's different than so,
like you're an absolute idiot.
You do this all the time.
Why do you do this?
This is, I always am dealing
with, with this, with you.
So tired of it.
What is wrong with you?
Totally it's instead of addressing
something that's specific,
it's addressing something that.
Broad.
And so if I don't like something you
agree with, instead of talking about that,
I'm just labeling you in a general way.
Yeah.
It's an attack on your partner at
the core of their character and
you're dis uh, dismantling their
whole being when you criticize.
Whoa.
So criticism.
Yeah.
Can you give us an example, criticism?
I mean, I think criticism would be.
I mean, maybe, maybe there's
other example, better examples,
but saying you always do this.
Mm-hmm like I come home and
I went out, like you said, I
could go out with the girls.
I come home and you always
leave the kitchen a mess.
You never have the kids
ready for bed when I'm ready.
I, I always have the kids ready for bed.
And the kitchen's always do that would
be what that would be me coming to you
and being like, you always do this, like
it's like attacking you of like, why?
Like, what is wrong
with you that you can't.
This is so important to me.
Like I wanna come home.
I don't wanna feel stressed.
Like, do you don't you love me to know
enough that like, this matters to me.
And so then it's like using really strong
words and attacking your character.
Like this is a character flaw on you, as
opposed to coming home, being able to be
again, why so important to do individual
work so you can be regulated and.
Okay.
Now's not the time to address this.
Okay.
We're we're getting ready
for bed, brushing our teeth.
Hey babe.
I talked to you for a minute.
Like I was so excited to come home
and I, I guess I kinda expected the
kitchen was gonna be straightened up.
I didn't wanna have to do that.
Like, do you think maybe next
time I go out with the girls,
like that's something you can do.
It just really is important to me
and it makes me feel super loved.
So instead of a, a.
Addressing the actual issue you are
you're attacking the person is criticism.
So instead of addressing the issue,
like you said, Hey, you know, come
to them softly and saying, Hey,
with a soft startup, Hey, I know
you, you were playing, sorry, babe.
You know, we were
playing baseball outside.
And like, we got, you know, time got
away from us, you know, that soft startup
of saying, Hey, I know you're doing.
But this would really mean a lot to me,
that, to be the, the correct response,
but criticism is just like, well, you
never, you just don't care about me.
Like you're just horrible and lazy.
Yeah.
Criticism.
Yeah.
Attacking their, their character.
The third one is defense.
I, this is my go to my go to toxic
weapon of defense and it it's true.
It never works.
And it only hurts.
Uh, but defense is exactly what it is.
So when Rachel will, when I don't get the
boys down in time, the kitchen's a mess.
She comes home.
She's like, babe, please.
Next time.
Can you get the kitchen clean?
And the kids in bed in time.
I'm like, but babe, I'm I
got you coffee this morning.
Don't you remember?
I got you coffee.
And then, uh, I, I helped cut
the carrots at dinner and babe,
I, I, I got don't you remember?
I got the oil changed in your car, babe.
I'm working so hard and it's moving,
it's distracting away from the
actual issue at hand, the actual
conflict at hand, and it's moving
it to well, don't you remember?
I did all these other stuff.
I did all these other things and
I do it because I I'm feeling.
I'm feeling it's usually
a response to criticism.
Yes.
It's normally a response that I
have, or even a criticism critique.
If even if the person, you know, it can
happen sometimes even if I am, oh yeah.
All, all the time coming, you
know, Hey, when this happened,
like, could you do it differently?
And then, you know, it's usually like a,
a response to get the partner to back off.
Yes, like back off it's it's true.
I did all these other
things, woman . Yeah.
Like can't can't you just be happy
and they're like, I, I am, I am
happy about all these other things.
There's just this,
there's just this thing.
And so defense, if, if we are
constantly going to defense,
then it is going to ultimately.
Destroy our marriage.
It destroys the, the integrity of the
relationship because then a person,
the, the other party can never feel
like they can bring, like, you can
never feel like you can bring something
to me if I'm always being defensive.
Mm-hmm because what I communicate
back to you is, oh, well,
you just don't appreciate me.
Well, you just don't, you you're just
not grateful and thankful for what I do.
so then the person feels power to, that's
not what I'm sayings, not what I'm saying.
Oh my goodness.
That is awful.
That he feels that way.
So I might better just
not bring these things up.
It's a form.
It's really a form of manipulation
because if I, if I start throwing
out defense all over the place, and
then I mix in some criticism, like
I did this, this, this, this, this,
but you, you never do X, Y, and Z.
You're now in like full
blown manipulation.
And, uh, that is going to
probably sooner rather than
later, come out totally sideways.
Cuz that person is gonna feel
completely plowed over number four,
the fourth and deadly deadly sin of
marriage, stonewalling, sorry for that
strong ass, but it is pretty strong.
Um, and usually it is a response to
contempt or like, you know, usually.
Stonewalling occurs when the listener
withdraws from the interaction shuts
down and simply stops responding to
their partner rather than confronting
the issues with their partner.
People who Stonewall can make evasive,
maneuvers, such as turning out, turning
away, tuning out, sorry, turning
away, acting busy or engaging in
obsessive or distracting behaviors.
Um, yeah, so that was me.
Stone was me.
I had no idea, you know, going back to.
First five, first, four and
a half years of marriage.
I didn't know how to deal with conflict.
And so whenever you would try to bring
something to me, or you would try
to talk about something, you know, I
would eventually pretty quickly shut
down and just completely turn off
and turn away from as a way to one.
I have no idea how to engage in
this and then also to punish you
because , I, I didn't know how
to engage in this conversation.
I don't know how to go there.
um, it was like, I was feeling
psychologically flooded.
Mm-hmm usually that's a response
you feel flooded and you, and then
I didn't know how to identify what
emotions I was feeling and, or
communicate them in a healthy way.
Um, and, and nor at that time,
did I realize that 20 minute
breaks in the midst of heated
conversations were incredibly healthy?
Yes.
And actually saves us and, and still
does save us a ton of heartache
when we learned to just do.
That changed a lot as well.
Um, so yeah, stonewalling.
Yeah.
Stone stone stonewalling
is the silent treatment.
It's the silent treatment.
I'm gonna give you the silent treatment,
whether that's, I'm gonna withdraw
and get Baine work, or I'm just
literally not going to look at you.
Not going to speak to you.
You're gonna talk, talk, talk, and
I'm just gonna be totally silent.
Completely shut.
Yeah.
You become a Stonewall.
Yeah.
And how is that effective?
How is that helpful?
I mean, where is that
gonna get you nowhere?
You know, it's being able to
be, self-aware enough to say,
look, I'm feeling flooded.
I need a break.
And you're really good at this.
Where, where, you know, we're trying
to talk through something you're
like, I, I, I'm not gonna respond
in the way that I want to right now.
And so I need a break.
I, and then letting.
Your husband or wife?
No, I'll be back.
I'll be back in 20 minutes.
Yes.
We'll talk about this.
And it is always, we've calmed down.
And then obviously in those times we've
been, we've trained ourselves to do
the, you know, is there any truth in
the way that I'm thinking right now,
you do, you know this, if you look at it
as like a triangle, you have a thought
that leads to a feeling that leads
to an action and they happen so fast.
It happens fast thought, feeling
action, thought, feeling action.
And that could be my husband.
Doesn't love me.
Well then how does it make you
feel makes you feel rejected,
makes you feel super sad, which
then, you know, what's your action.
I mean, sometimes we often have
actual physical reaction, which is
you could, you know, maybe cross your
arms and kind of like turn your back
a little bit towards your husband, but
those things are happening so fast.
And so.
It's re it's deconstructing that and
saying, okay, what's that thought?
Okay.
What is there, is there any truth to that?
And what is the truth in place of that?
And then you can do it in a positive way.
What's my thought that leads to the
feeling that leads to the action.
No, my husband does love me.
He's committed to me.
That makes me feel safe.
That makes me feel secure.
Yeah.
Okay.
That makes me feel a little less like, oh,
my shoulders are dropping a little bit.
I feel like I'm opening up a bit.
And then that goes in the cycle and I had
to do that, especially in the beginning
as I was like, what am I feeling?
I don't know.
Um, and so, and then when you come back in
the 20 minutes, it's, you're, you're way
less defensive and big and yes, yes, man.
That was hard work.
Those 20 minute timeouts are, especially
when you're getting in your cycle of
your argument and your disagreement.
It taking those 20 minutes away, putting
some music on, taking deep breaths,
thinking about something else it's so
helpful to then be able to come together
and actually resolve the conflict without
just further, having your cycle get
bigger and bigger, and you're getting
more upset and you just becoming more
and more reactionary to one another.
So let's hit some of these.
We already, already kind of
hit some of the antidotes.
Like what is the.
Of these spirits of, or these actions.
And we, the first one, we're
gonna go back to contempt.
The antidote to contempt is
building a culture of appreciation
and respect and gratitude.
And if you have incredible amount
of contempt in your relationship,
it's gonna take some time.
Rebuild that and change
that into gratitude.
One of the ways to do that is when you're
feeling those emotions of contempt and
discussed, taking a, like actively saying,
no, wait, okay, what am I thankful for?
What am I thankful for on my spouse?
And then relearning who your spouse is,
learning, who they are understanding
their world so that you're not
filled with contempt about them.
Well, and I would say.
Often is way easier to do in
your mundane every day, as
opposed to when you're flooded.
Yeah.
Yes, of course.
It's like, that's, it's a lot easier
said than done in that moment.
Think about the things that you
really love about your spouse.
when you're kind of mad at them, but a
lot of, you know, I think it's, their
motto is like doing small things often
and appreciating those small things
because often we think it's like this
big trip or this big gift or this big
gesture, that's gonna fix things in
our marriage or in this broken relat.
But it is appreciating the small
things like, wow, thank you so much
for cleaning up after dinner tonight.
Not because it should be his job, but
it's, I'm so appreciative of that.
That really helped me out.
I'm so thankful for that, but doing those
small things and, and actually vocalizing
that appreciation and that gratitude
to your husband, not just in your head.
Yes.
But to them.
Yes.
So that when you are in that, that place,
when you're frustrated and you guys are
missing each other, and you're taking that
break, it's easier to go there of like.
I love my husband.
Mm.
This is just like, Ugh.
This is like, we're both tired.
This has just gotten a little bit.
Yeah.
You know, blown outta proportion.
It's easier to go to the things that
you love about them, because you've
been practicing it during the week and
you've been vocalizing to each other.
We try to do this.
I feel like we do it fairly well
where we learned in totally to not
just think, well, he is just his job.
He should know to do that, but
actually express gratitude.
In the mundane, everything.
Thank you so much for picking up,
you know, arrow from practice today.
That really helped me out.
Yeah.
Thanks for making my
side of the bed, babe.
well, it's, it's building up those, those
thought patterns and, and those muscles,
cuz if you're, if you're constantly in
a thought pattern of complaining and
grumbling and contempt against your
partner, well then of course, when
you're in argument, it's gonna be that.
But if.
, if you are guarding your thoughts and
making sure that you're not grumbling or
complaining, but you're using gratitude
concerning your partner behind their
backs when you're not around with them.
And, and you're not letting those
small things come out of your mouth
when you're annoyed, but they're
not in front of you, that will, that
will help building that muscle up.
So when you're in the moment you
have your training to fall back on.
It's like they, they.
In, in moments of crisis, you
don't rise to the occasion.
You fall to your level of training mm-hmm.
And so it's like, wow, whether it's
in sports or the military or your
family or marriage, or you're training
your kids in the moment of crisis,
none of us rise to the occasion and
perform exceedingly well, we are all
going to fall down to the base level.
Of our habits and our training, which is
goodness, why when the healthy times and
the good times, it's so critical that
we are using gratitude and thankfulness.
Okay.
Back to, to criticism.
We already, you already
hit this really well, babe.
Um, the antidote to
criticism is soft startups.
And instead of saying, you do this and
you do that say, I feel a certain way.
Hey, babe.
The kitchen is a mess and
the kids aren't in bed.
I feel like you don't really appreciate
me and that sort of mm-hmm, putting
it on yourself of like how I feel
when something's not happening.
Yeah.
It's being intentional to use a
lot of eye statements, not you do
this and you are this and you're
always, you know, blah, blah, blah.
It's I feel this way.
It may not be based in truth,
but it makes me feel as though.
You don't care about mm-hmm me.
You don't care about what matters to me
when you, well, there's a use statement.
So avoiding you as much as possible
when you did this, then I felt
this way and that's helpful for me.
It's helpful for me, because
then I say, oh, that's how,
that's how I made you feel.
I didn't wanna make you feel that way.
I'm so sorry that I did make you feel
that way, but that signals to me like,
okay, this is not something I want.
Produce in my relationship.
I don't want you to feel that way.
I don't think about you that way.
I'm going to be able to take ownership
and alter and say, okay, I'm gonna
move in this other direction now
because I can see how you feel.
Uh, what is the antidote
to defensiveness, babe?
Yeah.
So the antidote to defensiveness would
just essentially be taking responsibility
for what you can take responsibility.
So, you know, it's when there
can be a truth to everything.
So even if you're a partner, which
it's a lot harder, trust me, it's a lot
harder to do this when you're in it.
But when you come to me about
something, instead of being
defensive of, I always do this.
And what about this time?
And what about the things that
I did for you this morning?
And, uh, well, you do the same thing.
Mm.
I can actually take responsibility,
like, yeah, you're right.
I, I don't like.
Late.
I don't like when I kind of get
flustered and then I kind of talk to
my, to the kids in a frustrated way.
Mm you're.
Right.
There was some truth that I
can, I can do better next time.
Thank you for pointing that out in
me, because, and again, that's why
it's so important to have these
moments of gratitude and thankfulness
throughout the week and appreciation.
And then I think it's important
to highlight the, you.
We need five positive interactions
for every one negative interaction.
And so then we're filling each
other's emotional bank account.
So to speak, if you look at it in that
sense, so that when these, this does
come out, I'm not feeling like, wow,
you're, you're just ripping me apart.
But no, you, you are so good at telling me
all the things that you love about me and
the things that you appreciate about me.
It's easier for my brain to go to.
Oh, you're right.
You wouldn't have brought this up if.
If you didn't love me and care about
me, because I know you do, you, you
voiced that to me in all the small ways.
And so just finding that, that
truth to whatever the, the person
is bringing to you, um, and taking
ownership and seeing where can I
do better in this you're right.
Okay.
And being, and really being humble
and, and shooting down pride
and, um, knowing like it's okay.
We can have blind spots
and that's hard for me.
It's hard.
It can feel such, you
know, it can feel so much.
, I don't know why we can translate in
our minds that it's a personal attack.
Like you're telling me I am flawed
as a person when really it's like
that, that just disables you from
ever, just being able to see the
truth in it, because totally you're.
So I'm, you know, I did all these
things and I'm, you know, doing all
this stuff for you and this family and
we are, we are all flawed as people.
Yeah.
We all, we are.
I, I love that you brought up the
five to one, uh, that for, in order
to have a, a healthy, emotional bank
account with one another, you have
to have five positive interactions to
counteract every negative interaction.
So that means you have a ne negative
interaction and it takes $5 out
of that emotional bank account.
And you have to do five
positive actions to fill it up.
The, the problem, the
problem, however, then become.
Is that we can't control
those negative interactions.
We're bound to have negative interactions.
We can, we can work to build tools in our
tool belt in the way that we engage with
one another, like, uh, attacking these 4,
4, 4 horsemen, they're called these four
things that destroy the relationship.
But if we just are completely
swallowing ourselves, Then we're
just swallowing ourselves and
it's just gonna explode out later.
But what we can control is
the positive interactions.
We can be intentional throughout the day,
fill up our partner's bank account through
saying thank you through touching them on
their back and saying, I really appreciate
when you do X, Y, and Z, you know, these
positive interactions we can control.
And if we.
Work hard to increase our positive
interactions, rather than just
worrying about trying to minimize
those negative interactions.
We're gonna do much better.
The last, the last one of the
antidote, again, you already
touched on, which is the antidote to
Stonewall walling is self soothing.
Um, and you already hit it on it.
So great, babe.
I don't think we even need to
go over it again, which is.
You're in that place and
you're totally shut down.
It's take that time out, identify
what you're feeling, identify if there
is truth to what you are feeling so
that you can come back and engage.
And some, sometimes it was
I'm going on a quick run.
I'm gonna like go do something that's
totally unrelated to this, you know, like
not even think about what is going on.
It's like, um, to actually just.
I guess I get, it goes back to self
soothing to just like, get your brain
back to a normal elevated, not elevated,
um, manner, place of homeostasis or,
well, that run is, you know, doing quick
20 minute exercise is great because it
pumps all of sudden your endorphins,
dopamine levels through your head.
Mm-hmm, it just totally resets you.
And I think it's going away from
no, we have to solve this right now.
I cannot tell you how many, I
mean, and this is a normal thought.
If we are committed to each other,
we are in this until we are done.
I don't care if the sun rises
and we didn't get any sleep.
We're talking about this because if we
are in this marriage, then we then, and
we are committed, then we have to do it.
But that is actually so destructive.
It's actually more mature and
more wholesome if you guys can.
And we've learned this,
it's still hard sometimes.
Cuz when you're in it, you feel
you have to fight off those.
Like he's, he doesn't care.
He's rejecting me right now.
He.
you know, thinking about himself when
really it's like the, a form, a huge
form of sacrifice and love, because
you're like, I love you so much that I'm
willing to walk away for a few minutes.
Yeah.
So that we can actually have
a constructive and effective
conflict and an effective
communication, um, with one another.
Yeah.
And so, um, if we can take those breaks,
whatever that looks like, take a drive.
I don't know.
It, it will benefit.
Well, it's, it comes from the,
that verse, which says, don't
let the sun on your anger.
And then we translate that to,
well, we have to resolve every
conflict before the sun rises.
Even if it's 2:00 AM,
3:00 AM, doesn't matter.
We need to resolve this conflict,
but really what it, you know, with
that passages, you know, referring
to as like, don't let it just go
unresolved if you, if you avoid it
and you're essentially then Stonewall.
That conflict and just remaining angry.
And you're waking up the next morning
and you're still stonewalling the person.
Well, that's not taking a,
a 20 minute break that you
can come back and resolve it.
That's just, mm-hmm, exhibiting
toxic behavior and that's
not going to solve anything.
So bringing this all back yeah.
To where we started the
show, which was talking about
dovetailing from the previous.
Of setting healthy expectations
and boundaries for your kids,
cuz that's really what is
gonna set them into freedom.
Then the next thought that we were
had is like, man, if, if your house
is divided, if you are divided in
your marriage, well, forget about it.
Like no matter what you do, you are
going to then that toxic, that toxicity
within your marriage, from these
healthy, unhealthy patterns that we.
That is going to trickle down to our
kids and the culture that is created
between husband and wife, that is going
to be the culture that is created between
siblings and the, the culture that's
created between parents and children.
And so if we don't get our house right,
if we don't get this relationship
right where we are on a team, it
doesn't mean that we're always perfect.
And we never have conflicts, cuz
we're always gonna have conflict.
Both.
We're not able to deal with.
In a healthy manner, then we're not going
to have a family culture that we want.
We're gonna have a family culture.
It's just not gonna be a healthy one.
Yeah.
And I think it's, you know, it's
not having a healthy marriage
is not the absence of conflict.
It's not the absence
of having hard things.
It is having those hard things come
up and those conflicts ensue and.
Actually walking through that with
humility and love, which love is patient
and kind, it's not, self-seeking,
it's not seeking it's own way.
It's not, it's not rude.
Um, and so it's taking these tools
and actually being intentional
mm-hmm , you know, it's so.
You can have healthy conflict.
It's not the absence of it.
It's not, oh yeah.
We don't fight.
Well, that's a little bit
more alarming than . Yeah.
At least I find I'm
like, oh, oh my goodness.
okay.
Yeah.
So I think it it's exactly like you said,
it is, it goes hand in hand is why we
wanted to touch on and we will continue
to touch on it is all intertwined.
Is the health when you and
I started to get healthy.
And again, just that visual of we're.
Looking at each other with fist
rays, like you did this, you did
that, you know, like all those four
things present with defensiveness
and stonewalling and critique and
discussed or contempt, um, towards
one another in the midst of conflict.
It's okay.
There's this issue and reminding
each other we're on a team, like
link, I just see it, like we're
linking arms facing that problem.
Yes.
Yeah.
With in, in your, you know, whether it's
in your marriage or financially, or,
you know, Extended family or job your,
and then of course your children and the
way that you're raising your children,
you're gonna face that a lot differently.
You're gonna be able to walk through
that a lot differently than if you are
just yeah, of course divided between
your husband and you're not on a team.
And so it's so important.
It's so important to go after it
and it's worth like, if you really
think of it, like you've committed
this person for the rest of your
life, why would you not give time to.
Therapy and counseling, like
it doesn't come naturally.
There is nothing about this journey
in marriage and in parenting that
just happens like, yes, we were
created with a desire to love and
to grow and to be the best that
we can be to the people around us.
But if we don't work for it and
we don't intentionally pursue and
fight for it, it won't happen.
And that will essentially
create the culture of your life.
And for your family in your marriage.
Life just happens to me.
You have to go after it.
So like, this is what,
this is what we've got.
This is it.
And this family unit
will change the world.
My kids will change the world and
if I want them to, it requires a
heck of a lot of intentionality.
And you can only be present
in an aware and intentional if
you are your most healthy self.
And that often is being willing to do
the hard therapy sessions and counseling.
It's not a shameful thing.
We need help in our lives.
We need the, that council and wisdom.
And, um, I'm so thankful we did that.
And that's our biggest thing is
I'll say I have many moms come
to me and we talk and chat.
And I, and I feel like that's
one of the biggest things I
highlight is like before anything.
You have to know, like you and your
husband have to be in unity over this.
Yeah.
You guys have to decide no, at all
costs, we're fighting for this and we're
going after it, even in, even in hard
seasons, even when, you know, often Lucas.
And I will say if something is happening
in the household that isn't normal,
we'll often say, oh, where were we lazy?
Oh, so lazy.
And my parents get so lazy.
Where are we lazy?
And we were busy doing something else.
So we didn't feel like
stopping and addressing.
And it's just like going back to taking
responsibility as individuals and saying,
okay, where did we, you know, where do we
need to repent to our kids, to each other?
And then just like have redo his,
his mercies are new every morning.
And so, um, yeah, it's just, it's
going after it and fighting for that.
But if we're not healthy, then we
can't expect it to go smoothly.
Um, and so it's.
It's worth it.
It's worth everything it's worth it.
You'd always, you'd always, uh, use the
phrase unnatural hard work, and it really
is unnatural hard work, but what, how
can people naturally find you and find
us on the, the interwebs of the world?
Well, for now, where can
they find us for now?
You can find us on Instagram.
I'm at Rachel scroll robot and my
husband at Lucas grobo oh, yes.
We hope to do, we will do a social media
page where for this, you on the website,
social something for sure somewhere.
But right now, if you have any
questions, you can find us on Instagram.
Also, if you wanna get more out of the
show and this, I, I truly believe this.
If you wanna get more out of the
show, share this with your friends,
don't share this with people who you
think are having a hard time, but
they don't see eye to eye with you.
And so you're being passive aggressive
of, Hey, you should listen to this.
If you have a person like that in
your life, just sit down with them
and talk to them face to face.
That's going to improve your relationship,
but share this with people who think
like you, who are you're already on
the same page with, and begin to build
a, a language within your community, a
shared meaning within your community.
So that you guys can build a strong
and healthy culture together.
That's all for today's episode.
I'm Lucas and I'm Rachel.
We'll see you next time.