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The Intersection Education Podcast focuses on leading teaching and learning to help improve schools. Hosted by Corey Haley.
Lee Smith - Moral Distress in Educational Leaders
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[00:00:00] Corey Haley: Hello and welcome to the Intersection Education Podcast. I'm your host, Corey Haley, and today I have a conversation with Lee Smith
With a few stints back in Canada over the. Lee has been working mostly in and leading schools internationally since 1996 in Australia, Taiwan, Korea, and China.
He has been a literature and humanities teacher, curriculum coordinator, vice-principal and principal. He has been affiliated with Canadian accredited schools abroad, specifically British Columbia offshore schools for 12 years. In his current role as offshore school representative Lee Acts as the liaison between five.
BC Offshore schools in China and the British Columbia Ministry of Education and Childcare. He started his PhD studies at the University of Alberta in 2019 and is now nearing completion on his dissertation. His doctoral studies seeks to understand how 15 principles of Canadian accredited schools abroad make sense of morally distressing situ.
Within the context of their own professional identities. Now, if you like what you're hearing or you think this might help others, please share this episode with your friends and colleagues. You can also listen to our other episodes. Now here's my conversation with Lee Smith.
Hello league. Thank you so much for making some time for us. And, uh, how, how are things, uh, in your neck of the.
[00:01:31] Lee Smith: Yeah. Great. And, uh, thank you so much for, for having me. Um, you know, I've listened to your podcast for a while and, uh, I think that I'm in, uh, I'm probably gonna be, you know, your, your least accomplished, uh, guest.
So, uh, I, I'm, I'm quite grateful that you're having me onto, Talk today. So thanks. Uh,
[00:01:50] Corey Haley: I, I know that that is not the case because uh, that is actually when I have, uh, me speaking into a microphone is when I have my least accomplished guest. So that is, uh, very kind of you to say, Hey, let's get right into it because, um, I think that the topic that we're gonna speak to today is actually very interesting.
Very, um, Very topical and very important for, for a lot of leaders, and that is a moral distress. So why don't we start by just maybe defining moral distress and why you feel or what you have found in your work, um, to be its importance for educators.
[00:02:32] Lee Smith: Sure. Yeah. So, uh, the, the notion of moral distress actually comes from healthcare, litera.
And, um, it was first kind of identified or named. Anyway, the phenomenon was named in, um, 1984 by a, a medical ethicist named Andrew Jamon. And his original definition was, um, moral distress is, and he had kind of three parts to his original definition. Moral distress is the, the psychological distress of being in a situation in which one is constrained from acting.
And then the third part on one on what one knows to be. . So, uh, it, it occurs when a person is injured from following a course of action that's consistent with their own moral judgment because of, uh, external, perhaps institutional constraints, policy constraints or directives or internal constraints. And in the healthcare literature, you know, Long been known now since 1984 that when nurses abilities to act in accordance with their own moral reasoning and judgment are hindered, um, there are these resultant affective reactions, these feelings of frustration, powerlessness, anxiety, uh, sometimes depression, sometimes a movement away from kind of the moral core.
The essence, if you will, uh, of the profession. And, and those feelings, they, they are iterative, uh, they compound over time. So, um, since 1984, the, the original definition has. Uh, has evolved, like I said, and, uh, it's been refined as the scholarship evolves and the scope of its application broadens beyond just nurses.
So in my research I used, um, a definition put forth by Alveda Nathaniel in 2006, but I've modified it to refer to principles instead of nurses. Um, until very recently, moral distress hasn't really been considered in education. Um, and, and I don't think it's well known. Maybe I'll, I'll speak to that in a little bit.
So, um, anyway, I, I've modified Nathaniel's 2006 definition, and so that definition is, uh, moral distress is a pain affecting the mind, the body or relationships that results from a situation in which the principle is aware of a moral problem. Acknowledges moral responsibility makes a moral judgment about the correct action.
Yet as a result of these real or perceived constraints, participates either by act or omission in a manner they perceive to be morally wrong. Um, yeah, so, so that's kind of the, you know, that's, that's the definition that I'm working from. And, um, my, my study, uh, was focused around and, you know, I'm, I'm in the revision process right now, so hopefully this thing will get published in my lifetime.
But, uh, um, my study looked to see how principals of Canadian accredited schools abroad, because that is my background. Um, how they make sense of these experiences. So there have been a few studies where moral distress has been identified, uh, but I think that my study is perhaps the first or the first that I've been able to find anyway.
Of somebody looking to understand how educators, in my case, principals, uh, make sense of moral distress kind of within their professional identity. In, in 2019, the Alberta Teachers Association, the a t a, uh, did commission, um, a study and at that time, uh, that was run by, uh, Dr. Bonnie Stalmack from the U of A.
And one of her grad students, Barb O'Connor, and at that time they, they identified that moral distress is certainly something that, um, you know, it's there and, and that bears out as well in my kind of journey over the last couple years when I've had the opportunity to speak to the British Columbia principals and Vice Principals Association.
To smaller groups from some of the larger school districts on the, on the mainland, the lower mainland in dc uh, one group on the island in bc, um, about moral distress and the importance of recognizing it as, um, you know, as it is in nursing, as, as almost an occupational risk, right?
[00:07:18] Corey Haley: I think. Everyone, when you gave that definition, they think about when, um, they feel constrained either by rules or their perception or whatnot of making the decision that they feel is the right one.
And, um, that's why I think it is really important for educators and I, I really, really like your, your definition and how you've changed that, but I'm interested to know, and, and I think that you've probably found this in your study, uh, in speaking with other principles, uh, but also I know. Some personal examples of of how this gave you insight and how it might help some other teachers and leaders who are in a similar situation.
Do you wanna seek to some of the examples or some of the things that you think help when people have this definition of moral distress?
[00:08:07] Lee Smith: Sure. Yeah. So for me, um, you know, I, I came to understand what moral distress is long after, uh, I feel that I was, uh, affected by it. So my, my own kind of personal route into this, uh, was, uh, I, I was the principal, uh, for a number of years of a, uh, a large British Columbia offshore school in China, uh, near Shanghai and China, and.
So those BC offshore schools are like Alberta's international schools abroad. They, they teach exactly the same curriculum. They have the same compliance and regulatory pieces. Teachers are all inci. We're essentially teaching in a school that functions exactly the same as a school in Vancouver or Victoria or Cologna or whatever would, it just happens to be in an international context.
And, uh, because of that particular international context, um, with, with a, a cultural climate, a politically, uh, let's say ideologically heavy and ideologically directed. Uh, cultural and social climate, um, the principles of those schools. So I found in my role, and the principal I've spoken to since about this, have all found in their roles as well there's balancing required between what the Canadian school, how the Canadian school needs its curriculum to be administered.
But also the realities of living in the context that you're in. So for me, this coalesced around the issue of censorship and, um, uh, there, there are certainly topics of, of conversation and discussion that are in, um, uh, in China when you're teaching a Canadian curriculum and understanding that at a surface level is one thing, but managing it when you consider.
What I believe to be the, the moral, uh, my moral drive, uh, how I'm impelled, uh, you know, I'm obligated to administer that, that curriculum fully and that curriculum is one that, you know, I'll say maybe generally Canadian curricula are those that are infused with these. , um, tenets of, uh, you know, freedom to discover information, freedom to dissent, uh, freedom to speak, um, you know, within the limits that we all know about.
But, uh, this ability to, uh, to to find and work with information is not something that existed, uh, that exists in, in China, in those Canadian accredited schools. It just. It's not how the schools are allowed to run. So I, I was given, you know, I, I was, I was given, um, a choice one day by, uh, some members of China's Public Security Bureau, P s b.
Um, they took me from my office, my school office, and they took me to their office and it was, um, Still quite a nerve wracking day. And uh, but they gave me, um, a choice, which wasn't really a choice at all. And my choice was I could either withdraw the, some elements of the social studies textbook that we were using and at that time, that was a required textbook in a required course for graduation.
Um, or they would. Kind of remove me and, uh, they would withdraw the license for the school to operate. And, you know, so it, it's a choice, but it's not really a choice at all because there were 55, uh, Canadian teachers there and nearly 800 students. And, um, I, I really wanted to stand on this principle, something that I believe strongly in this freedom of expression.
Um, and freedom to discover information , I really wanted to stand on that principle, but because of this constraint, because of these policies, um, it, it wasn't the decision that I felt I had to make and I didn't know the term moral distress then, but I, I did understand that. I felt. Anxious that I felt powerless in my mind as I processed it, uh, for the years until I came to the U of A and learned the term moral distress.
I had it in my head as this kind of. Ethical consternation that I felt it, this, this almost this, this unsettling, um, this, I, I knew that it didn't sit right and I knew that it was affecting me, and I, I knew that it was affecting the relationships I had with, uh, my Chinese counterparts in the school. Um, it was kind of, uh, coloring, you know, my experience and, and.
I still think that I'm processing all of that, uh, talking to other people at the 15 principals of Canadian accredited schools that I spoke to in my study. Uh, you know, part of that is, is learning how these other people make sense of, of this as well. And, um, so all of that to say that I think the big thing that comes out of this is for me, Learning that there's a term for, this was almost a bit of a, like a, a balm almost.
A bit of a, a sal Uh, it almost kind of, yeah. I don't know. It's like it, it made it, yeah. Knowing that this phenomenon existed, kind of took a little bit of the. Uh, the angst or the anxiety of me, I don't know if I consciously thought this was just something that happened to me. It's certainly not what I thought, but mm-hmm.
but it, knowing that this was a thing, uh, helped. And, and when I've spoken to the people in my study, um, they've said, you know, kind of much the same thing. And when I've spoken to groups in. . Um, yeah, it's mostly gr uh, groups of school leaders in BC that I talk to, because that is mostly, I mean, that's the curriculum I know best, and that's, those are the schools I've worked in the most.
Um, but it's, it's the same thing that I hear, like the, ah, it's, um, that's what it is. I mean, that's what I've been contending with. That's the, that's this thing that's affecting me in the way that it is. It's, it's got a name. And so I think that's a, that's a. Important piece that comes out of this for me.
Um, I've joked before that I think that moral distress needs the same kind of PR campaign that, that wellness has. Um, I, it's a term I think that, uh, it's a concept. It's a phenomenon that I believe needs to be in, in the discourse for school leaders. It needs to be part, part of the public discourse as well.
Uh, it's certainly not just about educators. It's certainly not just about healthcare. Um, my dad is a retired police officer and when I was telling him about my research, he certainly identified with what moral distress is, you know, firefighters and, and other occupations, chaplains. Um, yeah, it, it, it's, I, I think a, a ubiquitous phenomenon.
My focus is, is within education. Um, but it's certainly something that I think, yeah, I guess need, needs a good pr. Absolutely.
[00:15:41] Corey Haley: I love how you said that when you understood this concept, when you co came to understand the concept, it helped you to reduce the angst of this, of this experience that you had that would obviously be distressing and obviously be probably anxiety inducing and probably something you thought about, uh, over time.
Right? You can see that it was, um, probably not a situation that everyone is, is presented with every day. Um, so I, I, I think that that is, I like your work, and that is why I agree with you, that it probably does need to be shared a little bit more so that people can make sense of these, uh, difficult situations that they face.
And that's maybe the next one. So I, I think, yeah, let, let's get this out, but I'm interested to know what. What do you think the next steps are for this work? And you've outlined a few there, both your own work with, uh, with your, you know, upcoming PhD dissertation and, and, and, um, defense. But, but maybe even, um, when we think about moral distress, how do you think that we, we make that more public, and how do you think that we share that concept so that people can come to understand it and, and perhaps be a little bit more at ease with these difficult situations
[00:16:53] Lee Smith: that they're presented?
Yeah. Um, I think, uh, I'll answer that. Your main, your, your question there just bef I'll put a little, um, preface in front of it to, um, again, just to underline what I think is, is the ubiquity of this, because when I speak to individual principals about it, when I'm telling them, and I know you're a school principal as well, and so I mean, people just kind of, ah, they see it and they get, because they felt it before, I think, um, maybe hadn't had the language around it as I hadn't.
but once they do, it's almost like this. Ah. And um, in, in that a t a study from 20 19, 1 of the findings that came out of that and, and that was school leaders' experiences in Alberta, and there was a survey statement in there, uh, that said, I feel constrained in my ability to do what I know is the right thing to.
because of factors outside of my control. And of that, um, large group that was surveyed, I think about a thousand school leaders. I can't, I'm sorry, I don't remember that number, but 51% agreed to that. Mm-hmm. . And for all of those who reported that, who reported experiencing or identifying moral distress, 45% of those experienced it several times a week or month.
And 41% claimed that this was experienced several times a year. So overall, 95%, uh, experienced constraints several times. Whether that was just within a year, a month, a week, a day, an hour. and, and relatedly people. Responded very highly to feeling emotionally exhausted, uh, when going to their job, which I think underlines this, this desensitization or, you know, demoralization is, is a slightly different concept.
And I know there's a, uh, cent's book about demoralization and burnout and stress. Those are kind of kindred constructs. They're not quite moral distress. , but I think in many ways they can manifest the same way. So yeah. What to do with all of this knowledge? Um. Well, I think we turned to our, our, uh, uh, you know, moral enterprise cousins in healthcare because they've got essentially a 40 year headstart on us in this.
And, um, I had the, the good fortune a few years ago on Zoom. It was just after the world slam shut to, uh, attend, um, a moral distress health ethics symposium through the, through the U of a. Through the John Ter, um, health center, I think it's called. Um, but those were all healthcare professionals, doctors, nurses, um, I think psychologists, speech therapists.
Uh, it was kind of a wide group. And, um, they shared some, some things that I think. You know, we'd have to modify a little bit and take forward into education. But institutionally they talked about validating this experience of moral ex of moral distress, uh, in healthcare, it's long been identified so people aren't kind of coming to terms with the language of it anymore.
It, it's kind of a, it's a known phenomenon. It, it's, it's been measured, it's been studied. It's been replicated in, in. You know, multiple quantitative studies. Uh, um, so they're, they're already that kind of leap ahead in that they recognize that, that it's a thing. So institutionally they spoke about validating the experience of it.
Creating a sense of solidarity to sustain kind of the, the increasing pressures, like almost like, uh, we're, we're all in, we're all in this together, or we have each other's back in. This kind of some radical honesty, and transparency about the situation is important. Uh, wellness supports and resources, peer support.
So that is people who have, you know, either gone through the same thing or have a, maybe an academic and practical understanding of what this means. Uh, encourage providers to use them. They spoke about using a, uh, or speaking with an ethicist, which is probably something that, uh, we as school leaders or teachers as well.
you know, maybe don't have access to, in the same way that these, uh, clinicians do. But just this notion of, of reaching out into a community of people who understand what it is, what the concept is, and how it feels when others go through it. So they, they also talked about, uh, what, what an individual who's experiencing moral distress might do.
And I mean, these are things that, again, I joked, uh, It's similar to, to wellness. in that self-care becomes, uh, an important aspect. So whatever that means, motivation, sleep, exercise, creating time to engage in activities, journaling, you know, walking time for reflection, time for contemplation to try to find a place to shift, perhaps oneself taking a broader view of the situation that one feels mired in.
Because I, I think that's part of it. When, when people are feeling moral distress, they, they really feel mired or shrouded in it and, uh, stuck maybe in it. Mm-hmm. . So seeking support, uh, as needed from colleagues, from, uh, leaders, from a mentor, virtual peer support group. I don't know. But also sharing these experiences, sharing, you know, at team meetings or, uh, staff meetings or, or however, you know, particular schools are, are divvied up sharing these, the, these experiences of distress or guilt or, you know, the sense of unfairness of it all.
Um, it's, it's not just. It's not just the venting of it, but it's almost, it's, it's almost like releasing a bit of a, releasing a bit of the pressure, uh, kind of, yeah. Taking a little bit out of the pressure cooker a little bit to be able to speak about it. And again, uh, that resonates with the people I spoke to, um, in my study.
Well, I
[00:23:05] Corey Haley: am. Very happy that you have done this work. And I, I, I think that there is a lot of future and I think it's very exciting that we're starting to talk about this. I agree with you that it is very similar to wellness and, and right now we are seeing a lot of school leaders, um, kind of struggling with that wellness piece.
And I think that this might be an important part of the conversation so that we can start to get a handle on, on the job that, that is difficult. Uh, and I. And so I want to thank you so much for taking a little bit of time and speaking to, to me and to everyone listening and wish you the best of luck with it as you finish up your dissertation and, uh, and onwards to, like I said, you're, you're, you're great defense.
[00:23:47] Lee Smith: Well, yeah. Thank you so much, Greg. I appreciate the platform and, uh, Anybody who knows me understands that I, I'll always appreciate the chance to bloviate and to get stuff out into the world. So, um, yeah, I, I appreciate you having me on. I, I do think it's an important thing for school leaders to know, uh, about and, um, Yeah, I, I think, uh, I mean, podcasts like yours help us get these things in, into the, into the public discourse and into the educational discourse, and that's so important.
So again, yeah. Thank you so much. I, I'm really grateful for the opportunity,
[00:24:21] Corey Haley: Kayleigh. Thanks again. I look forward to speaking to you pretty soon. Thanks
[00:24:25] Lee Smith: for listening to this edition of
[00:24:26] Corey Haley: the Intersection Education Podcast. Please make sure that you subscribe to ensure you don't miss out on future.
[00:24:34] Lee Smith: Another great resource is to sign up for our newsletter on the
[00:24:37] Corey Haley: website, intersection education.com.