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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
And I think it's a good opportunity to segue, into our next episode. Yeah. But before that, I have a YouTube retention play here. I'd like to mention that if you're watching on YouTube, behind me, you'll notice that there is a picture frame that has slowly been falling off falling off the wall and is yet to fall off. But we've made it through the entire episode.
Tyler:If you like to rewind and watch that thing slowly fall off the wall, please do so.
Nick:We are kind of live now. This is what I always wanted to say. We are live. And we're officially live. We are officially live exactly.
Nick:I mean, this is just an experiment. Right. Back again, Tyler. Welcome.
Tyler:Get it again. Welcome. Welcome.
Nick:Thank you. Thank you. It's an episode I'm looking forward to, to be honest, because we are going to that's good to hear. We're going to do a live brainstorm of a design slash business problem, see if we can figure figure it out together. So that's something else compared to our regular episodes and just to see if this is something.
Nick:Mhmm. And I might just hand it over to you right away. Like, what's that, that problem you have in mind?
Tyler:Okay. So I wanna keep it quite high level. I don't wanna, I would love us to kind of let our minds go and kind of collaborate and come up with a solution at the end. So let's start with a very generic problem. From the business perspective, eager to, like any company does, increase revenue, whether it's ARR or MRR.
Tyler:An analyst has identified that they have a one catalyst might be that they have a low adoption problem. So they are launching features, but a small minute percentage of the user base or new users are actually purchasing or getting upsold those features. How might we solve this problem?
Nick:Okay. Well, that's I like that you start with the, you know, business challenge in in mind. Yeah. Can can you tell me a little bit more? Because I, you know, I have questions right away.
Nick:Mhmm. So are you talking about current users that are already on a subscription plan, for example, or new ones? Or
Tyler:Yes. Let's this I wanna go away from b to b. Make this a b to c environment regardless of the industry. And so it's new users signing up. They have the base package, and then there's tiers, obviously.
Tyler:And then there are current users that there are new features that are being launched, but they're only available in the higher tiers.
Nick:Right. So let's say I'm am on tier a, like the basic one, and you guys worked on a new feature that's only available at tier b and up. Mhmm. And you noticed that not enough people are going from a to b even though you feel like there's more value now because we have this shiny new feature in tier b and up.
Tyler:Right. And then I think the assumption that I think we want I want us to think about is that, yes, the features that are on the different tiers were designed for this example perfectly. So they solve the user's problem, and there would no be there would there wouldn't be a buyer's regret for for purchasing the upgrade in this magical perfect world.
Nick:If only. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So that means that the upgrade is quite obvious.
Nick:Like, why not upgrade? It's going to solve your problem. We know that in this magical example. First thing I would always think about is, are they aware of this new feature?
Tyler:It seems no. It seems like there there has been a poor job at building awareness.
Nick:Right. Right. Because you have some of the, let's say, the the more obvious channels that way is, you know, announcing new features or even building in public like, hey. This is coming up, and we're working on it. You know, late leave your feedback in comments or reply to our email.
Nick:You know? So if social media channels, a newsletter for subscribed or our subscribers, basically? Are they in place, do you think?
Tyler:Let's say they are doing the bare minimum. They are Mhmm. They're posting general, like, brand awareness campaigns. So this is what we do, etcetera. Oh, we we may have launched a thing.
Tyler:Go to our go to our website. There's a new landing page that exists. So what they're currently doing is if they launch a feature, maybe they'll update the website with Right. A page or an addition to a page.
Nick:Yeah. Because you're you know, maybe good for a little bit of context is that we are keeping it very neutral here. You know, this is a scenario, but it is based on something like a pattern you've noticed in jobs and previous jobs and projects. Right? Like
Tyler:Yeah. I think there's a gap there's a specific gap in I think what the industry does very well is we have very clear science behind how we should discover and build features. There may be a gap in in in connecting those features to users. Right.
Nick:Right. Now if if someone would come to me with this problem, so let's say a software as a service startup or anything Mhmm. I would always start with a conversation like this, you know, lots of questions back and forth just to to understand the playing field. Then I would take a step back, have a, you know, more of a review, you know, sign up as a user, see everything I I run into. You know?
Nick:And then most things I noticed are based on, you know, design experience. And, usually, the conclusion is that if you look at, like, for example, 10 ways to make people upgrade to a higher plan, you know, to upsell something, some of those 10 obvious choices are well put together. You know, let's say they are green labeled, then you have, like, yellow labeled. Like, they they kind of do newsletters. They kind of use social media, but, you know, not really.
Nick:And then red labeled, it means, like, there there's just no newsletter, for example. That's where I would start. You know? They are the usual suspects, you know, the newsletter and the change logs and batch notes and having a road map on the website, talking to users, that kinda kinda stuff. Even showing something new, you know, perhaps behind the paywall inside of the product.
Nick:Like, hey. This is new. You know, confetti fireworks. Click here to upgrade. I'm not sure for this example how to to check what they all have, but that's something I would would go for.
Nick:Like like, check if the obvious, you know, options are there. Yes or no.
Tyler:Okay. And when you're kind of looking at how would you then approach it? Would it be an iterative approach? Would you have to lay out, like, a plan? Like, here's what we'll start with, and then we go on, or would you roll out the the dream scenario?
Tyler:If we had all the budget in the world, we'd do all of this.
Nick:I well, if only I had all the budget in the world. Yeah. Realistically speaking, I would score the things, you know, red, yellow, green, or one to five. Like, it doesn't really matter that much. Well, let's let's stay with green, yellow, and red, you know, like I mentioned before.
Nick:If I and this is because I I played Mario Kart recently. I would first try and take out all the red labels, see if I can get anything to yellow and up, you know, as a starting point. Like because that's usually easier than getting something from yellow to green, but also with the company coming to you or myself with this problem, that means they are some sort of there's a level of awareness of, hey. We're not doing as well as we should or could, or in a bad scenario, there's only this gut feeling. You know?
Nick:I wish I had more company. I wish I wish I had more money as a company. You know? So assuming that they have some sort of data in place, you know, you can just say like, well, okay. We have this new feature.
Nick:2% of users upgrade. We're not happy because our goal as company is 5%. If you combine that with, well, let's try and get this red label and this red label to yellow, you know, see if we can make make that happen, wait for thirty days or sixty days, and maybe that 2% conversion rate is now two and a half percent. Like, well, that means that we have a measurable, well, return on investment as you, you know, which you often talk about. So that's what I would do.
Nick:You know, combine the existing data where that feeling is based on with a scorecard for current features, improve the easy ones, and then wait and see and adjust.
Tyler:Okay. And then I'm I'm curious. Are there typical, like like, playbooks for some of these upgrades? Like, when you're looking at let's take other different levers that we can that you potentially can pull when something's marked red, for example.
Nick:Well, I think maybe it would help if we we pick one of the more obvious choices as an example and assume that it's it's red labeled.
Tyler:Mhmm.
Nick:For example, I think if you only send out new feature updates as part of a newsletter to your users, I think that's not enough. Like, I think we you should keep the relationship warmer than just, hey. We have something new. Pay up. Exactly.
Nick:For one of my favorite projects slash clients, I'm responsible not only for email sequence design
Tyler:Mhmm.
Nick:In the in the literal visual design sense, you know, the header and the footer and styling, but also handling the responses to the emails, setting up the automations. So, you know, we're really close to the fire there. For example, we also send out, like, hey. You've been subscribed for two months email with the idea being like, hey. Okay.
Nick:We're doing something well because you're still with us. Please tell us, you know, what what that is. And while while we're still talking, you know, is there something you're you feel like that's missing? Something we can do to make it even better? Because I would love to send out this email again to you in ten months when you've been with us for twelve months.
Nick:You know? It's really about that relationship building. And then I like, the automated email, obviously, is automated. But when they reply to me, I reply back personally. You know?
Nick:Handwritten. Like, it's very 2022, it is. Like, there's no AI there. You know? But it's really about building a connection, and then I think it's way easier to say, like, hey.
Nick:By the way, you know, we spoke last month, and we have this new feature, and I think it's going to be great for you because you mentioned such and such and such earlier. So really long rant from my side, that's what I mean. Like, if you only send out, like, hey. We have this new shiny feature, like, that feels very salesy. But if you send out, you know, in a non spammy way enough emails in the meantime, I think people are way more likely to respond well to your new feature announcements.
Nick:That would bring email sequencing from red to yellow, perhaps even to something close to green.
Tyler:Because I think, yeah, I think it's important what you'd mentioned there, like, the split between current and new. So, like, how do you nurture the existing client versus, hey. We have a shiny new thing. I think what you hit there is super important. And that probably ties into, generally, when you're looking at, like, those sequences, you're like you have a set that are for, like, new users, existing users.
Tyler:So it's like this, like, thirty, sixty, ninety days. Like, they're they're probably different sequences for those, I guess, different levels of, like, product experience or, like, you're a customer for that long. So there's different things that we need to serve them as information or emails requesting their feedback because they're at a different stage depending on how long they've they've worked on the product.
Nick:Yeah. That's true. You mentioned new and existing users. Is it even a problem for new users? Because they currently have nothing they are not subscribed, so that whole problem of they do not upgrade is not really relevant for them.
Tyler:Yes. Exact but you're you're still back to the, like, the different tiers. I think it's important. Like, in any company, you have what's called the value ladder. So it's like you have your your first level, whether that's package a, package b, package c, package d.
Tyler:And depending on their needs, they're gonna choose a package that best suits them. Yeah. Those are the those are the same packages that are offered to existing users and new users as well. The interesting, play for new users is getting them to pick the package. Well, ideally, the most expensive package, but the one that's best suited for their needs.
Tyler:And it's probably easier to have them for like, to not say twist their arm, but have them pick a higher tiered package off the gate versus an existing customer who's already picked a package, and they're okay with the status quo.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. True. So it's also about someone's coming in. You know that package b is best for them, but they pick package a mostly because it's cheaper.
Tyler:Mhmm.
Nick:Like, how can we convince them out the gate right away to go for a higher plan? And just to be a little bit annoying, and I apologize for that. Isn't that perhaps also part of the game where people don't really have a relationship with a company yet? Then they just, you know, toe in the water. They they try it out, see if there's good fit, if it's a trustworthy worthy company.
Nick:They start at a, you know, just see if there's something there. And then if they are happy, they can move up to b or c perhaps. And that is maybe even to be expected that it's a bit harder to move people up.
Tyler:Yeah. I think it it depends how you set up those different tiers. I think, generally, yes, if they're they wanna dip their toes in the water, they wanna test your your product if there's no kind of free tier, although go for the lowest package. But generally, you'd wanna set it up. There's different ways to do it depending on, like, the type of product you're offering.
Tyler:But let's say you have a product that's targeting businesses in general, solar printers require the first package, and that's fine for them. But then if they're moving up into a small and then to a medium and a large business, that's how we kinda lay out those different tiers. Generally, your package should facilitate them progressing. So, like, we've solved we've solved the problem with the first tier. You're a celebrator, but now you're starting to hire.
Tyler:We have these other tools that'll help you at this new stage that you've kind of transitioned to Right. And and so on and so on. So it's there's different ways to to kind of curate those packages, but that's one example to kind of get them up that ladder by just serving features that best suits them at their different the life cycle within their business maturity.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, I can see that. Like, if I'm a designer, I'm on my own, I have a let's say, I have a Loom record Loom subscription. I also have, like, Claws, like, a pro subscription. It's all aimed at at one person.
Nick:Let's say I'm going to hire a bunch of designers, and we're going to work together. I would need to upgrade to allow the extra usage. So, you know, with that in mind, let's say I hire people, but I'm not going to upgrade. Like, that's the problem. Right?
Nick:I need more, I'm not going to upgrade. I will run into a usage wall at some point, I guess, you know, because I cannot allow people to use the same account because then, you know, for Claude, for example, it's metered. Like, you have nothing after a while. Like, your usage is your meter is full. So that means not doing anything or upgrading.
Nick:So that's a little bit of of, you know, forcing someone to upgrade, but in a good way. Because I think that makes sense. You know, more people using the platform also probably means more costs for the business. So in that case, being very clear in the UI design of your products or platform is also a way to help people upgrade, not only by announcing, you know, emojis like, hey. We have something new, but also by being very clear in your copy.
Nick:You know? It's being very open about your usage and limitations and perhaps teasing a new feature in a way. Like, you show the button, but it's grayed out with a lock icon inside of it, you know, and then explaining what it does. Yeah. So I think that's a strong second thing in addition to communication, showing it on the platform.
Tyler:Yeah. I think that's it. I think there's many levers you can pull. I think I'd love to talk more about, like, the in app stuff. So I think there's there's stuff in the email that's, like, just you're set you're feeding them emails depending on, like, where they are in the life cycle.
Tyler:There is and then there's in the app. Like, once they're in the app, what can we do to, number one, just educate them to use the product better and then also educate them that there are other features that might help them Yeah. In their in in our example, they're new. They're going from a solopreneur to a small business. How do we communicate that without being annoying?
Tyler:Because that can also be the case.
Nick:True. Yes. So we're already noticing, I think, in in this this, like, first twenty minutes that there are so many different factors that play a part here. It's about pricing and labeling of your tiers, what feature belongs to what tier. Like, maybe that's just wrong because I think you have you have two important pieces.
Nick:You have the features that, and then you have the goals people have. And that well, maybe it's three things, and you also have the price. So let's keep talking about, like, the solopreneur. They usually, you know, in most cases, have a smaller budget than an agency. So you need to have the right features for a solopreneur as a solopreneur's budget, and then the same for agency.
Nick:So maybe the the, you know, the examples you have in mind, maybe the features are positioned well, but maybe the pricing you connect to it is not right for the person where you think they need also those features. Like, maybe it's too expensive, and that might make them consider to just do it on their own. You know? Well, I can do this myself. I'm not going to pay $100 a month more.
Tyler:You know? That might be the case. That's that's true, but that's a that might be a communication or an education problem. So, like, you might be going down. Okay.
Tyler:Maybe they are this tool is priced out for this solopreneur. The other side of that is maybe you're not communicating the value or the ROI over the return on up the on that specific tier.
Nick:Yep. So And and that yeah. That's true. Yeah. Go ahead.
Tyler:Like, is it expensive, or is it just they don't understand the value
Nick:yet? It I think it's mostly that second one where there's a, you know, a lack of understanding. And I I know myself, I'm a very tough person in that regard. Like, I don't I'm I'm not someone to easily pay more for something or pay it all for something. The best example being Zapier.
Nick:Like, I thought it was quite expensive, like like, something like €32 for me, like, or $40 a month. And that's more expensive than your typical subscription, which you I feel like it's usually a bit around $20 month. So I was like, woah. That's that's twice as much. That's expensive.
Nick:And then later on, I flipped it around and was like, well but it does save me about eight hours a month times a €100 or a $100 an hour that I can do more each month. So then that's $800 made versus 40 spent. So that's still $760 more than if I would not give away the silly little $40. You know? So but it took me a a very long time to switch from it costs me x amount of money to it's going to bring me x amount of hours or free time or money.
Tyler:That's interesting. And how did you like, in that example, like, how did you come to that realization? Was it the product that did it, or did you kinda come to your own?
Nick:This is a real example, by the way, you know, just for our listeners. I'm not making that up. I'm I'm a very happy Zapier user, and it's really helping me save a lot of time. But just just to answer your question, I it came to me, I think, just by experience after a while and talking to people and listening, you know, people talking about the growth mindset versus scarcity mindset. You know?
Nick:Like every job, you get better over time, and I think this was just one of the things that just occurred to me. Like, wait a minute. I can save time and spend more time, you know, working that I can, you know, send invoices for. So, no, I I did not get a Zapier email where they told me, like, by the way, here's our return on investment calculator, which is probably a cool, interesting free tool any company can use for their websites. Like, hey.
Nick:If you use this tier, like, one tier higher than you currently have, this is your investment, and this is what you get in return. Like, I think that would be a good conversion tool.
Tyler:I think that's a good example because there's overlap between that specific example and then problem we're currently solving. Yeah. There was a clear you purchased that $40 tool instead of, like, the the generic the the standard 20, and you discovered value on your own. There's probably, like, to that example, maybe a calculator, like, many opportunities to do the same. Like, there's a clear value in what you're offering in that specific tier.
Tyler:Figuring out ways to close the gap between the time of the purchase of, like, the first tier to, like, okay. The second tier is better. It's $40, but it saves me time. Like, how Yeah. How might we best, like, communicate that?
Nick:Yeah. Well, that's true. That's true. Well, I I think the the calculator is one way, but then you also see that it's not fully in your control. Like, sometimes someone just has to become a bit more mature and figure it out and then connect it to their real life.
Nick:Someone else that I listened to or used to listen to quite a bit, they said, well, let's just put more purchase button buttons in the world and see what happens. So maybe it's also a matter of, you know, in a polite way, in a not in a dark pattern way, but in a in a good way, showing or giving users more options to upgrade. Mhmm. One example that I am that I'm currently working on is one of the big levers that we have at one of the projects is inviting your colleagues. And then if you do, you both you know, you and the person you invite both get a big discount, 50% off for first month or first year or whatever.
Nick:That's a win win for everyone, you know, because, like, we have confidence in our product that it's a good fit. So you have an existing user that gets a discount, and you bring in a new customer that also gets a discount. Well, you give away some money, but your lifetime value probably is going to be okay for you because you have more people staying for longer, and they can invite more people and more people, etcetera. I first, you know, the the idealistic dreaming fancy designer that I am, was I like, well, let's just make it part of the onboarding and make it a button somewhere hidden in an overflow menu.
Tyler:Mhmm.
Nick:But then the founder was like, well, no. No. No. I want it to be the invite flow. I want it to be accessible from every job that someone does on the platform.
Nick:You know? For example, hey. You've done this thing. Well done. Congratulations.
Nick:Now tell your coworkers about it because they want to do the same thing probably. And at first, I was like, well, no, because that's a dark pattern and blah blah blah. You know? But but then later on, I realized, like, no. You're actually by showing it more often to users, you're help you're helping them because, you know, it's just easier for a whole team to be on a platform instead of you having to copy paste things out and back and forth.
Nick:And you give them a discount, and you give their colleagues a discount, and you make more money. So it's it's win win win even. So that's the realization I had to have as a designer to be slightly more business focused and slightly less dreamy, perhaps. So, yeah, put more purchase buttons on the Internet is what I want to
Tyler:That's a good one. Because that Yeah. It also touches the idea of, like, what would because at the end the day, we're there's a bunch of digital businesses on the web and a bunch of, like, sign ups, but, like, you don't necessarily know or trust them yet. But what builds more trust than a colleague or a friend inviting you to a platform Mhmm. That he currently uses and loves.
Nick:Yeah. True. And it's True.
Tyler:Yeah. It's this idea that you have internal advocates if you're using the example of someone within a company using a tool. Like, invite your friends so they all can use it and collaborate together. And you have that person who can kind of show them the ropes of, like, how how to use the software.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I think so.
Tyler:Another powerful thing. I think oftentimes what I see people do wrong in product is heavily leverage the help center or, like, the help documentation when I don't think that anyone uses that, really. I think what what users are often looking for is how do other people use the software that I use and do it like, what are their flows look like? I I see that often as feedback from, like, if running user interviews. Like, I just I don't want my help center that shows me, like, this button does this, this feature does this.
Tyler:Like, show me how does someone navigate through the platform, and how can I just, like, quickly watch a video of them doing it?
Nick:Right. So it could be a hybrid solution. It could be a help center, but at the top of the help center article, you have embedded video. Like, don't want to read? See how it works here.
Nick:Click, And then people will watch. Yeah. Yeah. I you know, what you're saying now makes me think about the first useful chatbots that I had as a consumer while on vacation earlier this month because chatbots have been around in customer service for years, and they were super obvious, not really useful, and a bit annoying even, and I always felt very stupid using them. It made me feel like a dumb person, so I always try to quickly get to the real person at the end.
Nick:But now with AI, I had one a very positive experience where, you know, I was in a vacation park, like, with all these little cottages, and then you would just have questions, like how what time can I check-in? What do I have to do for checkout? When does the swimming pool open for the public? You know, that kind of stuff. I would not go to the help center, like you mentioned.
Nick:Too man too much reading. But then I had in the, like, the the companion app of the resort, they had a chatbot called Charlie. I don't know why, but just a random human name, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. It was very useful. Like, they were very smart in just explaining it to me. Like, one sentence answers were very precise to the point that was super helpful. And at some point, they were like, that's silly.
Nick:We have we've told our maintenance crew. Like, there was a, like, there was a broken window in our college. So and then, like, thirty minutes later, someone was at the door. Like, hey. We have the window.
Nick:Can we take a look? Okay. Yeah. Blah blah blah. You know?
Nick:Very useful. Translating it it to your problem or your challenge. I think part of the the chatbots answers could be like, I see that you're on this plan. What you're asking for is such and such. That's part of our second tier plan, and here's how it works.
Nick:You know, take a look, talk to a salesperson, or watch a video, anything you can do to help the person converts. Like, I I feel like that could be a, you know, less conventional way of perhaps getting a few people to upgrade as long as you do it in a very, like, smart and human way. Like, you know, don't make people feel dumb as part of the chatbot. I think it's it's a possibility today with AI and, you know, all the good things that it brings.
Tyler:Yeah. I think so. And I think what we're what we haven't said yet is that there's probably one of the fears you had is, like, to be too salesy, but also striking the right balance with all the different levers. We've talked about emails. We talked about in app stuff, chatbots to not over what like, at the end of the day, like, people need to use the product.
Tyler:But if we're, like, bombarding them with, like, buy this, buy that, then it it's we're turning them off. But it's about, like Yeah. Implementing these solutions in a tactful way to not ruin the credibility of the brand.
Nick:Yep. True. True. Yeah. I mean, that's that's what we have with Adobe.
Nick:Right? Lots of people are complaining about the cancellation fee. Like, in people Adobe is just known for being you know, well, they have the cancellation fee, but and less so about all the cool products that they have. You know? I mean, that's potentially the result of being a bit silly around upgrading and downgrading.
Nick:I am warming up now. I have, you know, what you just mentioned about, well, about tiers and and and selling and not being too doing too much, but also not too little. I think you can also look at analytics of users. So let's say your new feature is about, you know, again, usage, something to do with usage. If you look at, like, who of my people on tier a are on any given week between 80100% of their usage limit.
Nick:And if you send them a message or you show them a model or a pop up like, hey. Our new feature is all about being smarter with your usage limits or even having more usage limits, you know, I think they are far more likely to convert because they are far more likely to experience that problem that this new feature is going to fix. And then the underlying reason being that if you have 1,000 users and you have a new feature that solves a problem, it's probably more relevant for a subset of those 1,000 users, not everyone. You can then by only sending it to the right people within those thousand, you will save yourself an irrelevant email to some people. Yes.
Nick:And when they will get less annoyed because they haven't received the silly email, or you can save that first impression of an upsell email for when they have a new feature coming up that's relevant for them.
Tyler:Yeah. I think that's important because we're talking about is segmentation. So, like, who gets one where? Because it could be I've fallen into the trap sometimes of whether you have, an in app, like, tool to, like, trigger pop ups, tutorials, like like, onboarding flows. As you build out those different flows, it's possible to get into the trap of, like, as soon as someone logs in, they get pop ups every three seconds.
Tyler:But, like, I think it's important to trigger the right pop ups in the specific moment that they need it. Yeah. And to your point, upsell them or or speak about the feature that's or the tier that's better for them because they've they've hit that wall of of usage.
Nick:Yeah. It's how do they say it? I do they call it, like, shoot and pray? Like, just send it to everyone and hope something sticks? Like, I think that's, yeah, I think that's not the right approach, like, what we're just talking about.
Nick:I think the more specific approach that perhaps takes a bit more effort will yield better results in the long run.
Tyler:Yeah. And I think so we talked about, like, those videos there. I think webinars are underutilized as well, like, on the theme of show them how people use it, like, those should be, I think, abused a bit more. So you've launched the feature, for example, and you're trying to get your adoption rate up for new features launched, pairing that with a webinar of, like, here's what it does. This is how we use it, and then speaking to the value and then pushing for the sale that way is I think it's underutilized, but a super powerful tool as well.
Nick:Yeah. I think so. You could perhaps even turn it into an event for subscribers. Like, hey. We're going to announce and explain new features and, you know, register them and join and get a first look and blah blah blah, that kind of stuff.
Nick:Mhmm. Could be interesting. Perhaps more for b two b. I remember you saying, like, it's b time. Also interesting, by the way, that b two c is what people say at least is, by default, more challenging to sell something to than b two b.
Nick:Mhmm. Know, You it's not always the case, but that's that's, I think, the the general agreement. Not useful info right now because I think we're on a good good streak of figuring things out.
Tyler:Yep. I think b two c can do it well. Like, Wealthsimple is a good example of, like, a b two c. So they're like a banking finance app.
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:They have been doing, I guess, Apple like launches and webinars for their new features, which has been quite impressive. Getting people excited about the finance industries, like upgrading to a checking account. As boring as that sounds, they're making it sound, like, through these, like, webinars, like and and they make it a whole event, like, come where it's then it's the new era of of of of finance. Come come join it. And they're getting people excited about, like, something that might be hard in the traditional sense to get someone to to sign up or purchase.
Nick:Yeah. Well, I mean I mean, that's that's isn't that just super smart, like creating the hype and making people feel energized and, you know, it's it's I think that's way better than just just being like, well, yeah, you know, low hanging fruit, quick fix, blah blah blah. Boring. You know? That doesn't really convert.
Nick:Another thing I think works quite well from one of the projects I did, I think earlier this year, not anymore, but earlier this year, we gave discounts to people who are very engaging with emails. Okay. So I mentioned in the beginning the the, hey. You've been with us for two months. What's going well email?
Nick:We have the same one for people who cancel And then with the same rules, like, if they reply to me, I reply back personally. And then the question is, like, what you know, please tell us more about why you left. You know, not in a judging way, like, hey. You left. We are tracking you.
Nick:Tell us before you can go, but just really in a in an open way. You know, we want to improve, and perhaps we can get you back. Like, if they reply, we give them a welcome back discount, you know, without pressure. Hey. If you decide to come back, don't forget to use this code, and they get get 50% off in the, like, the first quarter, like, first three months.
Nick:It's not pushy. Like, they they just have the code, the the discount code, the coupon. The same perhaps you can do for a new feature. Like, if someone's been someone took the time to give feedback on, like, an early version of a new feature or gave feedback or reply to anything at some point. You know, it it might be like, hey.
Nick:Thanks for helping us make the products better as a thank you. You know? Here's a new feature. Try it out for free for thirty days. Let us know what you think.
Tyler:Well, especially if they help you build, like, if they help you the feature. So, like Mhmm. You've done a good job of, like, sending out an email campaign saying, hey. We're thinking of building these three features. We'd love your input.
Tyler:Submit this form or book a session. Yeah. And if they're along the way, give them a discount, and they become advocates for you.
Nick:Yes. Yes. Advocates, user champions, power users, like, any cool name you can can think of. I think that's a good way to really tie people to you and to your products. I think that's underutilized for new features.
Nick:But then, you know, it it again, it it does depend on the type of feature. Like, if you'd only have, like, a small new feature, a little upgrade, that's not really something people like, it's not big enough to do a whole user testing program, I guess. But you can also keep track of how responsive people are to your emails in general. Like, if people have received over the year ten emails and they replied to, let's say, three of them or more, that gives them a special tag, and then you can send out the email with that special offer to people who have that tag in the in your, you know, newsletter tool of choice. And, again, I think that's what I mentioned really in the beginning with, you know, your communication should be long term.
Nick:Like, you shouldn't consider it to be a quick fix. Like, well, let's just send an email once, see what happens. Probably less will happen than if you when you did it well.
Tyler:I I guess as we're talking, we we mentioned email a lot. Yeah. I guess, like, we're putting a lot of stock in it. I feel like I've heard people think may think that email is dead. I guess we're assuming it is not.
Nick:No. I don't think so. I I well and one of the reasons for email, I think, is that the visibility is way better if you do a a if you try to go viral. Like, you don't know when that will happen, and you can follow all the the best practices, but maybe and you I mean, you just don't know. And for email, it's way more predictable.
Tyler:Yep. And I also think it's
Nick:a big benefit.
Tyler:There's a strategy behind, like, touch points. So I got a fear with, like, the the standard now. I think it's, like, seven to 11 touch points with a particular brand leads. It takes up to seven to 11 touch points to convert for a purchase. Yeah.
Tyler:So email might facilitate that as well. I
Nick:think so.
Tyler:Yeah. Sending all updates or just being or even just seeing that you've received an email in your phone, just having that notification with that that logo brand that there's they're on your mind.
Nick:Yes. That being said, I think there aren't many people that will just purchase a new tier based on one email where you say, we have a new feature, period. And they have to be reminded of, oh, yeah. I do have that challenge. What do they have to fix it?
Nick:Well, oh, they have a new feature. Oh, that's interesting. Let me think about it. Then the next day, they get a a case study about a new feature, and then they're more convinced. And then after they get an email, like, or social media post, whatever, like, hey.
Nick:Upgrade. And they're like, oh, yes. Let's try it out. That's something I've been learning recently. Like, I've been probably doing it the way that you are trying to solve now.
Nick:You know? I'm trying to be better and touch points and warming people up to purchasing something is one of the things I've been learning recently. So, yeah, very interesting.
Tyler:Plus, it's also, like, the same for I I don't know if you've been on, like, the sales sides or, like, watch how they work. But when they're doing cold outreach, you've probably noticed it as well as someone's trying to sell you something. It's not they're not just sending one email. It's like four or five or 10 different emails. And of the more emails you send out, the more likely someone will respond.
Tyler:Like, ah, this guy isn't this person's annoying. I might as well see what they're trying to sell me versus Yeah. What you're saying, shooting an email and hoping someone responds on the first try.
Nick:I'm yeah. I am a bit passive aggressive that way because I depending on the level of the emails I get, because I I have someone who's sending our podcast emails, like, every week. Like, the first email was like, hey. I'm a thumbnail designer, YouTube SEO, blah blah blah. I can get you thousands of views.
Nick:I was like, well, this is obvious, like, cold email. I you know, we're both designers. We know what we're doing. I don't need it, but, you I didn't reply to it. I was like, well, whatever.
Nick:But now, like, every three or four days or once a once a week, I get an email where he quotes his original email, and all he says is waiting for your response. Nothing more. And I've had probably 10 or 20 of those emails now. So it's a long list because he keeps quoting the one before. So I I the email I have now, it's just a big wall of text that every line is waiting for your response.
Nick:And then the passive aggressive part for me is like, well, just send your emails. Like, I'm not going to reply back. Just, you know, waste your time and energy and email server cost, like, to just run out. I don't care. And now it ends up in spam anyway, but that's me just being a big, mean Dutch person, I guess.
Tyler:Yeah. Well, there is something that Yeah. There's just something that he's communicating about.
Nick:Yeah. That Yeah. That that that That's true.
Tyler:Like, if he's working this hard to get your business, how hard will he work when he gets your business? Which is also another layer to it.
Nick:Well, that's true. But I I feel like it's all automated because it's literally the same reply, and he sent the same message to another of my email addresses as well.
Tyler:So well, there
Nick:you go. Yeah. That's so I I'm not convinced. What I I am what triggered me what you said earlier about more emails means more likely to sell is I didn't believe that at first, but I'm warming up to the idea that it might be true because, you know, me as a business owner, I'm trying to learn more about sales. When I have a lead, and this applies, I think, to new features as well, I they send someone sent me an email like, hey, Nick.
Nick:I am looking for someone to help me with my platform design. Like, can you help me? Then I reply back, yes. Sure. Here's my calendar booking link.
Nick:Schedule something. And then they do, and then I reply back, cool. Looking forward to it. And then silence, and then I have the meeting, and then, you know, the lead converts or they don't. You know?
Nick:That's very simple. But all these sales gurus, they tell me, well, in that that two or three days between the meeting and the booking of the meeting Yes. You should send them all sorts of emails. Like, hey. Here's a case study.
Nick:Here's here's this and here's how it works, and here are some, you know, FAQs, that that kind of stuff. To me, that feels very spammy. Like, I feel like something's being sold to me. But when all these gurus are saying that it works, and me being super stubborn says it does not work, it's probably a me problem. It's very likely that I'm I'm the ones being I'm wrong here, probably.
Nick:But I have to warm up to the idea that it's okay to be salesy. Like, that's my bias. I have to be more salesy rather than just being trying to be friendly. You know? And that applies here too with new features.
Tyler:Yeah. Because I think the the logic behind that one is so you've booked a call. There there's two benefits. Number one is number one is you're not gonna forget that you have a meeting booked. So it's like, please don't forget, is number one.
Tyler:Like, I'm sending you an email just to keep you, again, on my mind. And then number two, you'd probably the goal is to pepper in sales objections. So typical so they've they've run these sales sessions. They've gone on calls, and there's patterns in which, like like, oh, I don't want a thing, and there's, like, a reason, b reason, c reason. If you Yeah.
Tyler:Pepper in those the answers to those questions leading up to the sales conversation, you're primed and ready to be sold. That's what I've been told.
Nick:That's true. I was very close to purchasing a very expensive, you know, business related thing from the person with the very great sales sequence. But then I felt like the actual meeting was way different. I think he was too casual. He was too laid back.
Nick:I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Know? So it's so I think you're right.
Nick:Like, I was very primed and very convinced, and then I expected perhaps too much during the the meeting. But I'm applying it now for my work. For example, I someone is someone's actually looking for design help, and I sent a message like, hey. I can help. And then they replied to me.
Nick:They they told me, we have a ton of replies, too many to count, but please tell me a bit more about yourself. So instead of, you know, writing a big wall of text, I made a Loom recording and sent it over to them introducing myself, being very friendly and open and then all that kind of stuff and showing a little bit of work already. And now I'm one of the final three, you know, for for the the the project, and I have a meeting with them tomorrow. You know? So it it will before this is going to be released, long behind us, you know, but tomorrow is that meeting.
Nick:And before the meeting, I made a FigJam board with a source of relevant projects that I think is well relevant for them, testimonials, and another Loom recording where I talk them through the everything. You know? And so they have seen it before the meeting because we have thirty minutes, and then they've had you know, you're basically cheating time because they otherwise, you would spend twenty minutes showing them all the work, and then there's no time for questions and and talking. You know? So that's what I'm taking away from the whole, you know, sales experts telling me about sequencing.
Nick:And I feel that's that's you can apply all of that to features as well. You know? So, again, you know, tease that you're working on something. You know? If someone mentions, hey.
Nick:I have this problem. Reply to them like, that's interesting. It's on our road map. Yeah. Have a road map on the website.
Nick:That's also a thing.
Tyler:First principles.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so, yeah, I'm rambling a little bit here, but I I think just being salesy, you know, as a freelance designer as myself, but also features for your projects, they have overlapping things that work and don't work. Yeah.
Nick:They you need to make a a large run up before you jump.
Tyler:Yeah. I think the theme that I'm I'm seeing in this discussion is don't be afraid to sell. Yeah. Ultimately, if you're not gonna sell your product features, like, who like, no one else will. No one's gonna trip over a banana or slip on banana and then put their credit card in and buy your your product.
Tyler:You have to do a bit
Nick:of Yeah.
Tyler:A bit of Yeah.
Nick:They they so yeah. You mean that they they slip over a banana peel and then they fall, like, credit card first into a payment terminal?
Tyler:Exactly.
Nick:And then yeah. I mean, that's that's what people what what's how I started. Like, well, let's just write articles to SEO, and then people will come to me. You know? Well, but that's that's not the only thing.
Nick:So, yeah, just perhaps to summarize, I think communication is important, and having more purchase buttons, not being afraid to do sales, what you said is important. And then overall, perhaps, I think the scorecard system and combining it with data is is very interesting. And, like, it's more like a framework. Figure out the route the baseline, rate the current systems in place, if any, and see if you can tackle the lowest scores to be an average score. Compare the data again, see if you're on the right track, and then do a few iterations, and the results will be, I think, very promising.
Tyler:Yeah. I think that's a solid strategy, and it's not a shoot and spray, as you were mentioning. Very methodical, analytics based. Yeah. Measure, iterate, continue.
Tyler:Yeah. Totally aligned.
Nick:Yeah. Well, that's good good to hear. I I I think this also motivates me to have, like, two extra topics for the show is that framework, I think, is very interesting to talk more about. Like like, how can you because it helps your conversations with stakeholders, like how to convince them to spend time and energy and budget on certain design work over something else, but also the second thing that I now lost my train of thought. But I'll get to it.
Nick:Like, you know, the scorecard stuff, think, is a very good thing to to talk about. I think many designers will feel very much helped by it.
Tyler:Yeah. I think it's good. Maybe you can even build some kind of a lead magnet there or give away the the toolkit and structure our email.
Nick:Yeah. That's true. You could be our sixth email subscriber.
Tyler:Moving them up for becoming Yeah. Super famous. I like it.
Nick:True. True. Yeah. Well, I I hope this brainstorm was helpful for you in because I assume this is all based on a feeling you have from your work.
Tyler:Exactly. And I think it's a good opportunity to segue into our next episode. But before that, I have a YouTube retention play here. I'd like to mention that if you're watching on YouTube, behind me, you'll notice that there is a picture frame that has slowly been falling off falling off the the wall and is yet to fall off. But we've made it through the entire episode.
Tyler:If you like to rewind and watch that thing slowly fall off the wall, please do it sooner now.
Nick:I have to admit, I didn't notice. But what I will do is once you've edited this episode, I will probably make a time lapse out of it.
Tyler:Please
Nick:do. It fall in in, like, five seconds. That's going to be really funny. But that's but that's a shame for people, you know, listening only because they cannot see. But it does make me think, you know, a silly creative person that I am, that on our new website, you know, where we have the frames, I will probably animate one of the frames to really slowly fall down.
Tyler:Oh, please do that. Please do that.
Nick:Yes. Yes. My wish. I will make note of it. And then once it's it's completely down, like, behind the frame, there will be, like, a little sticky note where people can click to watch this episode, and then they will know why the frame is falling.
Nick:I think that's
Tyler:It's a nice Easter egg.
Nick:Easter eggs. I think Easter eggs could be another topic. Like, why not leave the middle of the road that AI is pushing us towards, and why not do something silly on your website or on your products? Because people will talk about it. More on that later.
Tyler:But I think to tease next episode, I think we're
Nick:gonna go, of course, go over I
Tyler:think we're gonna call it the product design portfolio mastermind. Get into the tactics needed to to polish up or strategize around building a solid converting portfolio.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. And the things we're going to talk about will be tough and honest and different compared to all the other generic advice you will see around portfolio optimization. So if you're in this position of, well, I've applied a 100 times, no responses, I get ghosted, don't know what to do with my case studies, all these very relatable, annoying problems that many designers are currently struggling with, this episode will be and forgive me for saying it, but it will be a game changer for you.
Tyler:Love it. I'm gonna leave there.
Nick:The game word. I I don't like the word game changer, but now I had to use it. So there we go.
Tyler:Perfect. It follows your your sales training. Yes. Sell it up.
Nick:Right. I'm rising from the ashes. I'm I'm becoming a salesy person in a good way, I hope.
Tyler:Alright. Till the next episode.
Nick:Till the next episode. See you then.
Tyler:That was a great episode. So if you like this content and wanna hear more, please like and subscribe.
Nick:Yeah. And if you want to see more, please go to designtablepodcast.com, Spotify, Apple Music, all the big players, and more.