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Follow one church's journey as they depart from modern church growth trends and reinvent themselves by equipping everyday Christians to live out their faith in real life. Find episodes and show notes at www.dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
Danielle (00:18.286)
Hey, welcome in in today's episode, Christmas Confabulation. Oh wow. Yeah, look it up. Shifting from events to environments, strategically using meetings and all the things tell me to look it up. Well, I'm not telling you what it 15 end of year questions. Happy December.
finish your intro.
Okay.
Happy December everybody, it's Christmas month. Everyone's favorite, including every church staff.
Sure is.
Danielle (00:43.31)
Right, what's up with that? I wish I could love it. No, I do love it. I absolutely love it. No, I like it. But I was telling David the other day, was like, Christmas is quicker this year. And he's like, you're an idiot. Not those words, that's I hear. That's what I internally hear. He probably said, no.
You still love Jesus, but you hate Chris. All right.
Derek (01:03.83)
You want a podcast? do Daniel's internal monologue.
No. No.
Like what people actually say and what you hear. That would be a phenomenal. Could we start a series of memes or something around that? Sure. Yeah.
You wouldn't be shocked, but a lot of people would be shocked. But no, he was like, it's not, that's impossible. And I'm like, I understand. It's always the same. get it. But like something happened. And I think it's because like November didn't start until a Sunday or. Yes, the way the Sunday, it's the weeks, it's the weeks. have less date. We have less certain days. Something's going on.
What do you think is going on?
Derek (01:37.966)
Oh, it's the way the Sundays-
Danielle (01:47.48)
Because Derek, okay.
It's got to have to do with the moon. It's a vernal. It's a bit. Did you know we just had a beaver moon?
I
It's gotta be something with the moon.
I can't even say what I want to say.
Derek (02:05.57)
That's the internal dialogue. And like, if we could just unlock that, Danielle, I think there's money to be made. There's dollars to be had.
I don't know how I still find myself sitting here with you. What happened?
Where did my life go wrong?
There you go. It's usually more self-deprecating than that, but yeah.
but this one was me deprecating.
Danielle (02:31.618)
Well, that's my other go to. It goes in this order. You write, Dave, you, Aaron. And then I usually get to the bottom of it.
It's either your fault or my fault.
Derek (02:44.878)
Yeah, are the ones that are not directed toward yourself. Correct. So it's either my fault, like I'm a horrible human being. it goes Dave.
Which is 98 % of the time. Dave, you, and then Aaron. It's gotta be one of the three.
Good to know. I like it. I mean, I knew it, but just to say, just to name it is.
think it's healthy, it's healing. In the spirit of Christmas. Maybe for you. Okay, well that happened. Alright, so back to our Christmas confabulation. It's just a discussion. Alright, so these are gonna be like hot takes. So you just give me your hot takes on these subjects. We did a little bit of this last year, but these are different ones. And we may have done this one. Is Die Hard a Christmas movie?
therapy session.
Derek (03:15.464)
So tell us what that means.
Derek (03:20.398)
Hmm.
Derek (03:31.918)
Of course. No it is.
I disagree. Mainly because I've never seen it. And people are like, it's a Christmas movie. I'm like, get over it. Ugh, all right. It's one of those ones where I'm like, I'm never gonna watch it. I'm never gonna think to watch it.
What?
Derek (03:41.445)
it is, yeah.
Derek (03:47.982)
Danielle, in the name of Bruce Willis and his failing health, like you need to just in his, just to honor him. Like he's an American hero.
In the name of Bruce Willis and his failing health. Yeah, all right. This is the year. This is the year, all right. When is it acceptable to start playing Christmas music? Okay, I love that for you. But whenever you plan anything that has to do with Christmas at the scales, which we do, people are sending me stuff in like September. True.
I mean, he's...
about it.
Derek (04:10.478)
December.
Mm.
Derek (04:21.822)
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I'm a little insulated from all that.
Yeah, but I definitely I have had our Christmas service thing on repeat in my car every once in a while just because
Because we have a special song that we're... Is that what you're talking
Yeah, well the whole I have the whole playlist for the program, but yeah, but yeah, I wish I know I do I think Thanksgiving night if I had my choice, I'll probably start it then. Okay. Yeah, play boobling games and stuff
Yeah, I just feel like in general, I'm probably reacting to in general, feel like our society starts at way too early. So like the decorations, the grocery store, radio station.
Danielle (04:58.958)
I do think COVID messed that up a little bit because people had people I mean we've always been like that but people had a lot of time on their hands and decorating and doing all of them the most. Well okay along these same lines when should Christmas lights come down?
Oh, yeah, right on or around New Year. Yeah, so we usually take it down pretty early, either that week right after Christmas or actually it's kind of like a New Year's Day or January 2nd or like one of those. I mean, it is a little depressing.
On or around New Year?
Danielle (05:29.998)
Are you too depressed?
turns into this like I feel like my house turns into like a concrete box
Shift it a little bit though. So we have a rule at our house. We have a three hour rule. A three hour rule is that you set up whatever you can set up for Christmas in three hours. And anything that doesn't make it in that time frame, you're done.
If that wasn't worth the whole podcast series, I don't know what else.
We started it like five years ago. And right now, Aiden, our daughter, does a lot of our decorating. But like she adopted that rule too. Yeah, cool. we had started it was like, because we got boxes and boxes, you know, we got all the stuff out of storage or whatever. It's like, don't get everything out because you're not going to have time to deal with it. So just get out what you can deal with in three hours and then it goes back in. So like the whole tree decoration, any garland, any stockings. Yeah, it's a three hour.
Danielle (06:19.01)
I love that. Yeah, I'm going do that. OK. Elf on the Shelf. Just what's your take? Horrible.
horrible. It's the creepiest. The only redeeming character quality is the people that do blank on the blank and then do other things where it's like a riddle where you have to figure out who it is. It's like the rock on a dock. Where they showed Dwayne Johnson sitting dangling his feet off a dock. It's cute. You don't do this with Dax, the elf on the shelf.
like funny yeah yes yes yes
Sarah (06:45.92)
Ha
I don't know.
Danielle (06:53.262)
I can barely do Christmas. I did. yeah, my face went all kinds of shapes. No, I just can't handle it. I wouldn't be able to handle it. I would want, the problem is I'd want to just make it so awesome every single day. Cause you know, you like hide it and you put them in situations where all these problems. Wouldn't be able to just be like, it's in your room. It would drive me crazy cause I'd want it to be so good. Most overrated Christmas food or drink?
No one knows how people do it. It's
Derek (06:59.98)
Thanks.
Derek (07:09.398)
Right? Like fishing in the toilet.
causing
Derek (07:17.996)
Yeah, I can see that.
Danielle (07:25.358)
Yeah, I agree.
I'm such a texture person that it's just like, oof, I can't.
Also all the, you might not have been exposed to this yet by the times you were visiting, but like all the Christmas cakes, like the Christmas British, the canned cakes.
yeah, no. right.
I mean basically fruitcake. Fruitcake. guess.
Derek (07:49.674)
Yeah, mean, that would be my second answer.
It's like different realms of that, but they have different fruits over there. They love their plums. It's disgusting.
My mother-in-law makes nut rolls. And it was our first emergency session with my son, who's allergic to nuts. Who went down to her house as a little child for just like a random thing. And it was like the day after she made them and the oils still hanging in the air sent us to the emergency room. nut rolls has a special, a different kind of place in my
man
Derek (08:28.896)
in my rankings. Yes, just because of what I did to my son.
the random memory just popped up one time. I was at Chick-fil-A with Caleb and you and we were sitting there and he goes He literally does that and you're like we have to go. Yeah in the air or whatever. Yeah, we're so scary Okay, last time And I knew about all the stuff but it was like right it didn't even cross well it didn't cross anybody's mind I think I had just come to Erie or something. They were getting free tickets to Okay, two more okay who
Yep. Yep, peanut.
Yeah, really.
Derek (08:58.168)
church or something.
Danielle (09:03.114)
in the family lineup should host Christmas. Let's just help the people.
So I think the people with the least amount of children stress. So like, I don't think you should put that responsibility on the person with the most children stress unless it makes sense for them to not leave their. Yeah, yeah, or they're just like, it's just gonna be easier for us to host it. And even in that case, I think the people who are not there bring the food.
That's a good answer.
Danielle (09:26.741)
infant or
Danielle (09:35.323)
yeah, that's a good, yeah.
So even if they have to stay in their house. I, know, like for us, you know, we're at the place where it's like, we've got all the free time and we've got all the stuff, we've got the space. Sometimes it's a space thing. who has the space? So, but like, I just feel like as soon as somebody else is ready to step up and own it because it makes more sense, I don't know. That's how I
That's great. Last one. Gift cards. Lazy?
Yes. Lazy. Can be. So here's where we find ourselves. So if you're at the place where you and your siblings or whatever are exchanging $50 gift cards to different places, like what are we doing? Here's the other thing. Can we end this on a spiritual note? I've got a spiritual analogy for this that I've used before. So unredeemed gift cards.
boy. I already know it. Go ahead.
Derek (10:34.414)
Unredeemed gift cards are a cottage industry. So $21 billion a year of gift cards go unredeemed or somewhere around there. Listen.
Mm-hmm. Land.
Derek (10:50.83)
The promises of the Lord can go unredeemed in our life. it is like a gift card that hasn't been cashed in.
Save that for your news interview at Christmas. That's beautiful. And I just thought of a new game. Have you seen that where people do like rapid fire? Like you take something out of a bag and you have to do like a preaching lesson. Like one of those, one of those feely ones. Right. Do it. Let's do it. Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you. All right.
Yes.
Derek (11:24.654)
Yeah, well,
Let's move on. All right. So we are working through in our reinventing church segments, 11 shifts every church must make to be effective in our current cultural reality. Dave Rhodes and Shane Stacey from Clarity House set us up every week. They've been so good. They're just so good at synthesizing information. Great. So this week we're talking about shifting from events to environments. And Shane is going to talk to us about that. Let's...
So
Danielle (11:56.558)
Here from Shane.
Clarity House (12:02.616)
What's the best environment for building a discipling culture? Man, I feel like I get asked that question almost every other week from church leaders. And I know they're not looking for a silver bullet, but sometimes I wonder if they're looking for a silver bullet. And so when I answer that question, I like to step outside of church world for a moment into a space that we're all kind of familiar with. We've all lived through in one way or another and that we know has shaped us.
And that environment is high school. I went to a large high school in Ohio, a thousand of students and inside that single high school, there were multiple social environments that gave a greater sense of belonging and shaped me in different kinds of ways. And you probably experienced the same. And some of those were shaping us in positive or negative ways. But each of those different social environments also carried with them an unspoken kind of code.
Now think about it, there was pep rallies, right? And I don't know about you, but for me, with a large school, those pep rallies were designed to amp up school spirit. And we cheered for our beloved Bulldogs. And I'll tell you, especially during basketball season, which we were known for, that gymnasium was absolutely electric. Now, that was gathering of the whole school for those pep rallies. But then we had homeroom. And homeroom only happened about three times a week.
And we would see a mix of friends and acquaintances and those are on the fringe. And we were like anywhere from like, you know, 30 to 40 people in our homeroom class. And then we had a midday, you'd be walking around with what your lunch train, you'd be looking for your lunch table. And hopefully you had a place where your friends were waiting for you. And there was a space for you at the table and you share jokes and stories and everyday life stuff. And if that didn't happen for you, I'm sorry, but, I understand, right? That that that's just part of
the high school experience that it's on its best case, right? And then there was your bros or your BFFs, right? Adam, Charlie, Mike and John, that's who it was for me. And those guys, man, I'm telling you, that's who I spent the most time with both in planned spaces and unplanned spaces. Their lives just rubbed off on me and mine on theirs for good or for bad. And those are the guys that
Clarity House (14:20.052)
over time as we matured that they could challenge me on things and I was more apt to respond to than anyone else. Now, I want you to picture for a moment, you're at one of those pep rallies in high school and you're celebrating and cheering for those bulldogs or whatever your high school mascot was. And suddenly while you're in the middle of that electric kind of moment, you know, I turn over and I kind of tap you on the shoulder and I say, hey man, I think my parents might be getting a divorce and I don't really know what to do about
Now, that would be something big for me, but that space, that environment, it would be out of place, right? Even the lunch table has its limits and that's something to share with those best friends and those people who know you best, are gonna walk alongside you well through that, right? Now here's the point, different spaces, different levels of trust, but also different kinds of shaping and forming that best happens in any one of those different relational spaces. So now let's get back to the church for a moment.
environment that we create as church leaders, whether it be a Sunday worship service or a community gathering or a cycling huddle, it carries with it a different relational space, also some different things that it can deliver well and best and other things that it just is limited in its ability to deliver. And we know that. But sometimes I think we forget that over time. And we create environments or expect I should say environments to do more
then they're really capable of doing. Or sometimes I think our people are sometimes expecting certain spaces or environments to do things that they were never meant or designed to do, that we never meant or designed for those spaces to do. I think about that when I hear someone coming up to a pastor and say, I just wish the worship services were deeper. And by deeper, I went to seminary. I don't think they're meaning just more head knowledge. mean, some of those seminary classes were really, really dense. And I think deeper, they're reading like, want more
life application or like more change, I'm gonna experience more change in my life, I'm be challenged more, which then I'm like, that's great. That's not something we need to change about the worship service. You're looking for the right thing, but you're looking for it in the wrong environment. So let's now get back to that question. What kind then of social environments or what kind of environments actually help build the best discipling culture?
Clarity House (16:43.416)
Well, for that, I do now think it's helpful to lean into some of the work of sociologist Joseph Myers, who described actually four different kinds of what he called social spaces that help people get a sense of deeper belonging. And I think in a discipling context can lead different ones of those spaces can lead to different kinds of formation and reproduction. He named four spaces in particular. One was public space, 100 plus.
And then he said there are social space, which is like 25 to 75 people. And then there's personal space. It's like eight to 15 people. And then there's transparent space, which is like three to six people. And then I love our friends, Alex Absalon and Bobby Harrington in their book, Discipleship that Fits, they added a fifth space, divine space, they call it. It's like me and God. Now, what's interesting when you think about those social spaces that sociologists have unpacked.
When you look at Jesus' ministry and how he created movement, he utilized all of those spaces in his discipling culture that he created. He taught the crowds, that's public space. And then he trained the 72, that's social space. And he discipled the 12, that was personal space. And then he walked deeply with Peter, James and John, that's more intimate space. And then Luke loves a trace that he would get alone in a solitary places alone with the father.
That's divine space. Now, think about those different kinds of spaces, they deliver different things better and again, than other other spaces do and they have different limitations to it. And most churches kind of lean into one or two of those spaces and overuse them and try to get the same kind of outcome that you would get if you were using all those spaces. Here's what I mean. Public space delivers best and that would be like think worship environment kind of thing.
inspiration, building momentum, the proclamation of the word of God, right? It delivers best that kind of effectiveness. But then you have social space, which is like 25 to 70 people. And this is where we're having a lot of fun right now, helping churches kind of rethink this because often churches have neglected now social space and went right to personal space, small groups, or
Clarity House (19:08.536)
they're using their personal or their social space at 25 to 70 for Sunday school classes or ABFs or whatever you call them. And really it's just teaching 2.0 and it's really worship service kind of 2.0 on a smaller scale. But what that social space really can deliver well is a sense of practice and an ability to practice. You can help people develop in specific character and competency traits.
You can give them place to practice and try and get immediate feedback before they take it back out live with them in their everyday life. And we're loving helping people really rethink social space for training space. Now, another space that the sociologist named was that personal space, that, you know, six to 12 or six to 15, whatever it might be. And that's oftentimes what we see as small groups, right? They're great for support and closeness, ability to gently challenge one another.
But then there's that intimate or transparent space, three to six. And this is another space that we're really enjoying helping people and helping churches rethink about in their disciple making pathway. And that's an environment where I think transformation can sometimes go the deepest because there's both vulnerability and accountability. By vulnerability, I don't mean just transparency. Hey, this is what's going on in my life. But it's vulnerability is where I actually can be transparent and allow you to push on that. And accountability, we don't mean spiritual
policing, we would describe accountability as spiritual partnership. It's where we ask the question, how do we help me step into a fuller sense of, and reality of my full kingdom potential in response to what God's saying to me and what he's calling me to? Most churches, as we said, we find use one or two of their spaces and try to use them over and over again, and even repeat those kinds of spaces, public space. So we're doing a big outreach event, or hey, we're doing a
you know, another big worship gathering and they neglect some of the other key spaces that can be significantly helpful in a discipling culture. So with that in mind, back to that question, what's the best environment for making disciples who can multiply? Well, there is no silver bullet. There is no single environment. A discipling culture is built best on an ecosystem of kind of overlapping relational
Clarity House (21:32.928)
environments or relational spaces. And the key here is to ask what kind of development are we after? And when you've named that, then to apply to that or match with that then the appropriate social space that will help you get to that desired outcome.
Danielle (21:58.988)
Okay, that was great from Shane as usual. He's good. He's amazing. Okay, so we're sitting here now with Andrew and Sarah. You guys have both been on before, right? Yes. Just a little context. So, Andrew, we have really kind of separated out our ministry. We would have been doing this maybe with or without Awake the Lake, but this is kind of our reinventing church thing. So we have four ministry areas now, Be, Belong, Build and Bless.
and you're solidly over the together and worship space. Sarah, yeah, we were just on a couple of weeks ago and Sarah's really involved in like the discipleship and writing and curriculum and teaching and preaching and all. you're both preach, guess you're both on the preaching team. Yeah, so we're excited to talk to you guys today. I thought maybe Derek, do you want to start just give us like a little.
be together and
Danielle (22:55.574)
sentence like get us going and then I'll
Yeah, and again, Shane set us up, but like I think, you know, in our own version of events to environments, it's kind of like, you know, I think we've always thought in terms of environments, even in our worship spaces, tried to create a certain experience for people. But I think when we begin to start thinking of it through a disciple making lens, there's another layer of intentionality that I think needs to come on that conversation. And that's what that's what we're having today.
So when you guys hear that phrase, we're moving, shifting from events to environments, what does that shift mean to you? What comes to mind in your areas of ministry?
Yeah, so for me, I think about that, I think about where people's eyes are focused. I mean, just at a base level. think with events, we're looking at the performer, the person up there. So we're on a horizontal plane. Then we're talking about environments, especially in worship, we're talking about a vertical space where our focus is on the Lord. And we're creating an environment where we acknowledge His presence, we gather in His presence and we allow Him
to work and to move in the way that he's gonna guide and direct. Instead of saying we're performance-based, we're trying to create something out of human means, we're actually just gathering and hopefully with our hearts and our minds creating an environment where the Holy Spirit is gonna drive and direct. So that was my kind of, I think that's what I think when I think of those two words.
Danielle (24:28.974)
Yeah.
It's interesting when I think about even some of the conversations that we had and we've continued to have even out of COVID, I think about like when everything went online and then we came back from that. I know one of the conversations we started having here is like what happens in the physical room that can be different.
than what people would get if they watched online. I think it was like a really good clarifying moment to go, hey, there's a certain level of like transcendence.
Yeah, we said like we didn't want to download transcendent experiences or create a download for it.
So people can do certain things in their living room on a screen or whatever, that's fine. But like when we gather in the room, what is it that we want to be true about that experience that can't be true on the other side of a screen?
Sarah (25:27.118)
My brain went to from attendance to belonging. So it's exactly what you're talking about with the horizontal and the vertical like planes of where you're directing your eyes. And I think like when you're attending something, you are one among many, know, observing, being entertained, whatever. But when you're belong to something, you are one of the many, you know, and so that's a whole different thing. And you talk about transcendence, like we can't get that in the living room the same that we can.
worship service, nor can we get the eminence the same. And so I think both of those things, when you start looking away from the number and think about who belongs here and how are we embracing the belonging.
Yeah, it's interesting to think about like what happens in different kinds of rooms and so like big events can create big energy like that and you know We've even used language around here that there's certain things that can happen in a big room that can't happen in a small room and there's certain things that can happen in a small room that can't happen in a big room and it's why this kind of temple courts and house to house thing that you know acts
talks about is I think an important model for the church. But Sarah, to me, like, what kinds of environments are you seeing that actually produce like lasting transformation versus just kind of the big, you know, we're inspired for a moment. So talk a little bit about environments, you know, the kinds of environments that we find ourselves in.
Yeah, I think there's an and to it because we see Jesus move through all those spaces and Shane just reminded us of that and transformation happened in big crowds and it happened, know, like one on one has he, you know, healed a woman and picked her up off the street kind of thing. But I do think that there's a difference between those big public spaces and the social spaces, the private spaces and the intimate spaces in those big public spaces. It seems like inspiration can happen.
Sarah (27:16.172)
And if we do that right and do that well of that like inspiration, sometimes you'll even call it like an aha. We can move them toward the aha and I want more. Like I'm not just satisfied with the inspiring word I heard. I'm not just satisfied with the warming of my heart. Like I moved to take a step to do something different. So I think that that can happen in the big spaces.
But I do think we're gonna see the most transformation happen in the smaller ones. And I love that we're leveraging that like middle size space for training and leveraging the more private space for life group kind of meeting and which is a more over time. I guess those midsize groups that we're using for training, those are short term.
Very training, very action oriented, but the life group space you kind of can settle in and develop those relationships of belonging differently. Yeah, so I think it's possible, but I think we leverage the power of certain spaces toward different ends and hopefully people will move and want more in other spaces.
Yeah.
Danielle (28:27.896)
Do you have an example, an actual story example in that middle space? Can you think of a story to share a transformational that happened in that space that wouldn't have happened in the big room? What would be an example?
Yeah, well, the real like practical hands on nature of a training space where you're giving them space and opportunity to practice. So we're not just teaching you about prayer. We're not just talking about prayer. We're going to do prayer. Like, we're not going to just be inspired by how Jesus prayed. Let's practice praying like Jesus prayed. And just recently, we did a pilot for training around prayer and prayer practices and did it in the classroom.
And it was incredibly moving in the moment. And then two days later, hearing stories of people who are like, I am using that right now. yeah. Changing things, you know? So, yeah, it's a little different than just being inspired in the Sunday service of like, I should pray like that. Now we actually did it together.
Yeah, it's different.
It's funny that like so when I think about that I'm sorry, I'm not gonna interject on every one but it just I just had literally conversation today somebody came in and said hey you said this phrase in a message and I was at you know in a public space the next that afternoon and I had the courage to talk to the person in front of me and
Derek (29:54.222)
actually ended up praying with them because they shared something with me and I was like, can I pray for you right now? it was because of a Sunday inspirational moment. But even when I'm thinking about that, they were inspired to do that Sunday afternoon right after church, it was fresh on the mind, which is great. I would never say a bad word about that. But it's like...
if that happened again next Sunday, are they gonna be inspired again? And it's like without those smaller kind of like, you talked about one time versus ongoing, without those kind of ongoing groups where that person could share that story and then be encouraged about that, held accountable to keep doing that, there's a thing that happens in those more intimate spaces that cannot happen in and good stuff can come out of the big room. But even just thinking about that example of that good thing.
Yeah.
Danielle (30:43.159)
Yes.
Is there an environment then when that person can kind of nurture that thing and go, I'm actually gonna be that person who does that thing on an ongoing basis versus came out of church pumped up, riding high, had my moment, and then, whew, okay, I did it, you know, I did it. Anyway.
Mm-hmm.
Danielle (31:03.796)
Andrew, when it comes to Sundays, so you've been doing some experiments and some things, tweaks. So why don't we talk a little bit about that, what tweaks we made to kind of serve that.
Yeah, that's great. think we've been able to pilot a few things over the last couple of months and then go back and say, this make a difference? Did this land? So a couple of recent examples. I would say we, in the month of September, we kind of stripped our worship back. We said, how can we create really authentic presence in those spaces?
We return to seeing at least one him every Sunday I think there's a beauty in drawing tradition and reminding ourselves that this is not a moment in time thing we're gathering with Yeah, thousands of years, you know of this tradition. We introduced some liturgical readings just some Things that we were Affirming or confirming about who we are who God is To sort of call our congregations to worship one of the one of the biggest things I think
that we've done over the past couple of months is actually reorder our service to sort of put information in one place and then understand that the worship portion of the service, which I would really say maybe hinges on three pillars of praise, proclamation, and prayer are closely grouped together. And I think what that does is it helps create this story of every Sunday morning. Every Sunday morning is different, but every Sunday morning tells a story.
So if we can bind those things together, I think we allow our congregation to be called into worship and then remain in a place where the Holy Spirit can move and work and their hearts can be again challenged in a different way. Information is very important and we have an opportunity when we gather to give our church some necessary information. But if we can rightly place those things, I think we can create a much richer story in those worship spaces.
Andrew (32:59.374)
Yeah, so those are some of the changes that we've made. Little things here and there, closing door. They got little spatial things too, just to eliminate distractions. always in pursuit of, can we create a distraction-free environment? So our goal always is to say how can we minimize some of the challenges, some of the things that come up on Sunday morning, how can we minimize distractions from our atrium, which has been awesome. We've kind of...
Seen so much conversation growth happening in that area, but it gets loud and then you One of the other little tweaks that we've done a few times that I just I really like and I just think it's things that we can think about me challenged about maybe they don't make a huge difference, but I think Little differences make big change over time is opening the blinds. Honestly We have like two big windows and just to have some natural light in the space You know, I think there's something just
So double it. Yeah.
Andrew (33:55.852)
holy mother I don't know it's just you know so again exactly yeah yeah yeah we've eliminated lasers and smoke and made a difference
We're nature instead of fog machines.
Sarah (34:05.708)
We never had these.
Yeah
It wasn't spiritual reasons that we didn't, it was finance.
Just kidding, just kidding, I'm totally kidding. was intentional. It was intentional.
Some of it mean I want to name a couple other things too I mean I think like having people come up and read yeah Yeah, yeah out of the crowd like you know out of the congregation I think having our band come up out of the congregation to to get set up for the final set instead of magically appearing Yeah, you know when we pray
Andrew (34:43.63)
The other big thing is actually prayer, having people down front and kind of calling that out and allowing people to come down front for prayer, I think is really valuable. We've seen a lot of fruit off that. I want to mention too, actually, I forgot about that. Having the people come up and read scripture from the audience was one of the things I was challenged with today, is I was kind of thinking about the topic we were going to talk about. And just this idea of it doesn't, it's not just to have another person up there, it's having an added voice that adds to like sort of this mosaic.
view, this beauty that God is. And it's just a little bit of like, I don't know, anytime we can get a little closer to what I think we're gonna experience in the kingdom, which is all tribes, all people, all races, all voices that you just lifted in praise to God. that's another, it's a little one, but it creates a big result.
We're kind of getting here, but I want to ask just a little bit deeper. If you had like no baggage, no mega church baggage, no grace history baggage, whatever, and you wanted to design a Sunday service from scratch in a disciple making culture, like what would you, what would stay the same? What would look radically different? What would you do?
Yeah, so I think the similar things would be, again, going back to kind of those pillars that, you know, I feel are just really important. And again, being a pastor, you have to alliterate everything. I'm feeling a bit...
Yeah.
Andrew (36:10.181)
So I think gathered in the presence of God, the proclamation, the praise and the prayer are just, they're just foundational things. I don't think that I would change. Now we would change things sort of inside them and we do, we tweak and we play with how those things are actually lived out in the service. But I think those things would remain the same. They would remain the pillars that we build everything else off of.
placed in the presence if you want to get rid of that G that you're working with there.
Thank you. It's big. I'm gonna sleep better tonight. Go ahead. Thank you, Danielle. So one of the things that I think about is how can we, again, change something from an event to an environment? And I think there's even some spatial things that I would do. We have seats that are bolted to the floor and we have sort of style seating. It's not, you know, this, it's, you know, sloped seating or whatever.
was really great.
You
Derek (37:00.846)
Thanks.
So I think removing some of those spatial barriers and allowing people to gather in smaller groups to pray, to commune, to fellowship with one another a little more intentionally. I think I would really look at how much of the sound is coming from the front and kind of realign with we need to have somehow, and again, this is like no baggage, what will we do? Because some of this wouldn't.
We'd have coach into this a lot, but you know, the idea that these conversations and prayers and spontaneous moments that the Spirit speaks into can happen more naturally. I think one of the things, and again, we have a fantastic, beautiful kids ministry at Grace and wonderful people that steward that ministry well, but I do, love corporate gatherings where it's the whole family. And so, you know, being able to share with everybody in moments of worship.
and gathering I think is beautiful. I also think I certainly look at how we celebrate the sacrament of baptism and communion. I would lean towards communion happening every week and I think I would reorient how we structure baptisms to be more celebratory, more sharing what God's doing even outside of those baptism moments. We get to celebrate with people taking this big step. There's so many people in our congregations that have
Walk through the fire that are ready to rededicate their lives of the Lord that have salvation experience. So testimony, storytelling would have a central piece in that service. I think, yeah, it's bringing, and we talk a lot about how we can sort of bring more authenticity all the time. can be a little more, a little less productioning.
Andrew (38:57.518)
That's the vision. It's hard to like pick all the pieces out and put it together. That's just the vision for it though. Is that we're gathering in a living room or around a dining room table rather than we're gathering in a sloped seated, you know. Which I love by the way. But that's the cool thing that we get to think about. So yeah, those are some.
Yeah.
Danielle (39:17.452)
Great. Was it you and I that talked about one time just like not spending money on not spending so much money on like tech and things like that, but like spend money on just like a two in the room so you don't need like maybe it wasn't you. Like cathedral without the negative sides of the cathedral, you know what I
Maybe not, but I love, yeah.
Andrew (39:35.522)
Yeah.
We were just in Europe this past summer and it's like you go into all these cathedrals and all the choir lofts and everything are in the back. They didn't set it or in the side. We sat in the, it's like a long row of seats that the choir and the congregation sit in and then everything kind of happens in the middle so that there's this.
Well, I've been in some old churches too where even the pews are not necessarily pointed at the the lectorate, you know, and and it's really so even in that environment is like we're shifting our focus. I'm not I'm not looking at the preacher. I'm just hearing. I think there's beauty in that. I think the other thing I'll just say real quick is like something that engages all of the senses. I think I think there's just some.
and bells baby bring them back bring them back smells and bells
Yeah.
Danielle (40:25.304)
different but that's good. That could be the shirt for the Ministry team.
The other thing that happens when with that like arrangement like thinking about that we've talked about this before but like There is also something so not only does it The way rooms are set up now
you know, obviously the person up front is kind of the, and there's this vertical lacking, but like the ability to see other people in worship, like there's something so powerful to go, right over there is this person who I know is walking through this horrible thing, and I'm watching them raise their hands in worship and sing at the top of their lungs to God, and there's something about that that encourages my faith. And it's not showy, and it's not like they're just going in, and I know what they're
going through and like, man, just that communal thing gets really lost in some of our modern architecture.
It's really good
Danielle (41:24.782)
Sarah, so you've been shaping these environments like groups, trainings, things like that. Let's just talk a little bit about what's working and what's not in those spaces as you're trying to help people. Thank you. I wrote it. And read it.
Yeah, that's a good question.
Sarah (41:43.116)
I think...
I think some of the things that are working in those smaller environments and from the mid-size, what Shane would call the social space, down through the private and intimate spaces, I think are some principles I know that have come out. You guys have talked about these before. But when you allow people to speak personally, or we use the word autobiographical. So if it's in a training, you start that way. If it's in a life group,
There's like this connection time that is very like speak for yourself, you know, remember a time or, whatever that immediately engages the person who's there of like, I, I have a, I have a voice, I have a place I can speak to this thing. So I think that that's really important. I think the other thing that we're learning is to allow space and time for some sort of confession. So like in trainings, that's the, Hey, what's holding you back from
you'll want to be a friend. So why don't you go be a friend? You know, like those kinds of questions in the life group. It's the, it's the pause. What's God's word saying to us about who he is and who we are and how our lives not, you know, reflecting that and having that time. I don't know. I don't know if it's in the American church thing or what, but confession is like, yeah, we want to, we want to be the victim of life being hard and busy, but to like confession is the acknowledgement that like,
Yeah, you gotta get there.
Sarah (43:14.474)
I'm a sinner in need of a savior, you know, and what that is. So I think space for that has been really good and powerful. We cannot minimize the importance of good questions. Like good questions make all the difference. And I write questions all the time for groups. And as a life group leader, sometimes I'm like, who wrote this?
Yeah.
Danielle (43:33.911)
I know you get in the moment you're like, boy. Yes. That's happened to me several times.
Yeah. that one does not work. Sorry to everybody out there. you don't know. Yeah. And yeah, it can be difficult, but the more you're in spaces where you're having authentic conversations, that's a muscle or a skill to really flex is like how to ask good questions. And Derek has taught on a question ladder with conversations with people. That same principle applies in life groups. don't ask the...
deepest most vulnerable question out of the gate with a bunch of people you don't know. You kind of ease into it. Same thing with scripture. You start with the, hey, what do you see? What do think it felt like to be in that space? Help them observe before you start bringing it a little closer and near to the heart, I guess. That's good. Yeah. And then I think just one more thing. Sermons have next space or next steps. So in those public spaces, we challenge people.
you can shift that in smaller spaces to a challenge for somebody to say, I will. Like they can say it out loud, they can write it down, they can take a concrete step or commit to a concrete something small. And there's a beauty in working that out amongst one another. You know?
Yeah, I think that's really good. I'll just add to that. I think that's one of the things we talk about taking advantage of space is one of the biggest things we lack in a big, large, corporate, communal space is the measure of accountability. And that's where we can challenge, we can inspire. But if I don't have a smaller space on the back end to really live that out with somebody and be held accountable, I think my discipleship suffers. That's why it's so important to engage in all of those.
Derek (45:21.23)
Yeah, I want to say two things about this like from recent experiences and so like one of them is just an encouragement that I could because I do feel like that turn to your neighbor and share that is such a powerful moment because you're having to say it out loud so you can work it out in your head. here's why I struggle with being a friend. Here's what's holding me back from chair time or whatever it is. But then when there's this, hey, turn to your neighbor and share that thing. All of a sudden, I'm breathing that.
thing into the atmosphere and it takes on a new a new power of me calling it something. So one of the encouraging things that happened recently is we had we've been doing like a little bit of a deeper theological almost lecture series at our leadership institute. And I was I had a moment in time this weekend as I watched that room from a couple of years ago when we started this. And again, all these college professors come in do a great job of like
this deep, incredible biblical knowledge, but all of them, because they're teachers, also do the, turn to your neighbor and talk about this thing. And two years ago, when this same professor, Solgy, did it, and I watched our room just be silent and awkward for 45 seconds, and you have them, the one person's like, well, what do you think? And it's like, nobody knows what to do. I leave it. Exactly, exactly. And me too, I'm an introvert, I don't love those, I don't love those, but to see this week and this past Saturday.
Go to the bathroom.
Derek (46:48.77)
he goes, turn to your neighbor and stuff, the room went, rah! And then everybody was talking, dah dah dah And watching our church almost grow in that, in just a little snapshot way, was really amazing. And the other thing I was thinking about is you were talking in this introvert thing, because not everybody loves that. Especially not everybody loves that in big spaces. And because you're violating this social.
Yeah. Yeah.
Long care.
Oh, there's a mower. We have lawn care happening. In November. In November, yeah. That's a win. What a blessing. Hey, fives all High fives all I just want to acknowledge that the worship center is probably not the place to do the turn to your neighbor stuff. I know some places do that and they've leaned into that. Yeah. It depends how big your room is. It does. It does. But I think people walk into a big room like that not expecting.
that level of like intimate interaction. And when we violate that we actually do something. And so the answer is just to not do it. Yeah. The answer is to create spaces where that can happen because there's a lot of great transformation that
Danielle (47:55.406)
The other thing, interestingly, Diane recently did a training for us. Wow. And also it sounds like they're mowing rocks.
Yeah.
And it sounds like they're mowing the back of my chair.
Sorry, I hear that you can't hear it. We're just
They might not.
Sarah (48:10.366)
Cars parked right there. What rocks are...
I know, we're gonna go out.
dings
Diane recently did a training for our staff and I don't know if anybody's ever said this before but we were walking in and getting settled and she said hey hey you guys we're gonna talk to your neighbor so sit next to somebody you feel like you want to talk to today and it was like a joke but I was like yeah you're like right side because when I walked in the room was like tables of eight
So my mind is like, we're gonna have a group discussion, blah, blah, blah. But I realize, no, I'm sitting next to Shay, this is my person for this training. So even just helping people understand what's gonna happen when you walk in the room is huge, I think.
Derek (48:52.524)
That's good.
And I think, really quick, I think that can live in any space. Yeah. For us to be able to be trainers and coaches in those spaces, but to understand the nuances of the space brings that space new life, wherever it is.
I'm
Hmm.
So we have the audience, big audience for this podcast is ministry leaders of churches of all kinds of sizes. If you guys had any advice that you'd want to give other churches that want to move beyond just this event based kind of tractional thing to more of a discipleship thing, but they don't know where to start, what would you, what's some advice you'd have?
Sarah (49:32.056)
think the usual is small groups is like the first, but I think based on what we've learned that I think the first should be that mid-size 25 to 75. So I'm imagining like, know, I guess whatever size your church is, but even like for a small church, grab your elders, grab some staff, equip them be like, hey, here's what we're teaching through next month. I'd love for us to each man a table.
I'm gonna craft some great questions and we're just gonna try this out and invite whoever would like to come sit at tables and have conversation kind of in a guided way like low Sort of low risk, you know, try it out whatever and see what fruit comes from that because if you do it over course I think we've decided that like four weeks would be the bare minimum to run something like that six is probably a better number but
Yeah.
Sarah (50:27.668)
you may find that a table is like, hey, can we keep doing this? Why, yes. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. And we're going to help equip you, take steps to equip them with questions and how to lead a group. That would be the next step. But I don't know that if you have nothing that jumping to small group would be the first step.
And here's how.
Danielle (50:49.998)
love that because it doesn't force you to have to think through infrastructure of leaders and you're piggybacking off of what people are already learning in the sermon and you're just getting some good discussion leaders. That's great.
from there.
Yeah, I don't really have much to add. just think like find the lowest hanging fruit and try something. Like I think a lot of people are, there's this paralysis of like we have to program this really heavily. We have to make sure all of our, you know, T's are crossed, all of our I's are dotted. No, just pick some low hanging fruit and try something. And I would say, the other thing I would just say is like formation, disciples, they take time. They take time. So pray into it, give space. Like if it, you know, it felt rushed.
Schedule an hour and half instead of an hour the next time but don't be afraid to tweak as you move But but but start somewhere try something low-hanging fruit try something
Okay, cool. Thanks, guys. Thank you, guys. We're going to actually keep holding you hostage for a second. We're going to pull you into our next segment. do. yeah. Well, yes, of course, you're comfortable. Yeah, you know, literally.
Derek (51:43.246)
was awesome. conversation.
Derek (51:49.718)
send you back to your cages.
I'm in a cave.
Sarah (51:56.43)
His cage has a window.
Yeah, a roommate. you have lots of roommates here.
We
We have lots of roommates. Too many roommates, not enough ventilation.
Danielle (52:10.21)
Sunlight.
Sounds like a junior high lock-in.
Can I get an amen from the control room? All right, so we always have a segment in this broadcast where we just did it where we talked about what's actually happening at grace and you guys have been doing that this whole time here, but Derek wanted to just kind of talk about Kind of somebody learned this week and just kind of get our hot takes on it. Yeah
Use group never ended.
Derek (52:39.022)
So I have so I'll start bigger and then go smaller that I have Pastors that come to meet with me about a variety of things Stuff that we're doing just relational, you know opening up and so that this week Along with lots of other weeks where I've had a conversations like this I just asked like what would be most helpful for you like after we talk about whatever they want to talk about like is there any other way we could help you and one of the things that came up again that
has come up many times before is the person saying, could we just sit in on one of your meetings? Can we just sit on one of your staff meetings or one of your planning meetings or an implementation meeting, like whatever. So I'll usually parse out what are you looking for, like what kind of meeting would you like to sit in? And I went immediately to Erin afterwards and I just said, there any, there are like these teaching hospitals where it's like they've got, every room has the glass thing where,
All of the inter, everybody that wants to see can kinda, anybody can come in and watch the operating procedure and it's just like, everything's an open book and if anyone wants to sit in. So anyway, we've done that over the years from time to time and I just, asked Erin, I'm like, is there any reason that we wouldn't just say, all of our meetings are just open? Like, whoever wants to come, if we do a decent job telling our team ahead of time, so and so's gonna be in there, whatever, is there any reason? And so we just kinda concluded no.
no mean no there's no reason not know which i don't know
Derek (54:15.662)
So anyway, this idea of open meetings, and then my mind went back to something that I heard six months ago that I haven't done anything with yet when Dave Rhodes challenged me as the lead pastor of like, if you want to develop your staff, the easiest way to do that that doesn't add any time to your schedule is to open your calendar to a certain level of staff person.
that you just say every week at the beginning of the week, here's my calendar, it's wide open, who, does anybody wanna come to any of these things with me? And just open it up and just go, would it be valuable to you? I'm thinking about you guys that are kind of in that circle of staff of like, I'm meeting with this person at this time, I'm meeting, I'm having this like planning session at this time, I'm having, we're thinking about the next sermon series at this time, like whatever, and just go at the beginning of every week, schedule's open.
And so I'm almost thinking of it from a personal scale and from a church wide scale of just going, what if we just thought about our our meetings as open learning sessions where people could come along and there could be a little bit of development and follow up after the end. And so anyway, we've all experienced let's keep it on the church wide scale. We've all experienced kind of those open meetings where maybe other people have sat in with us. What are your guys thoughts on that?
What is good about that? What is a challenge, any, about that? And even again, for people listening, I just hope these ideas just like spark an idea in you of maybe a simple thing that you could do to help others or to benefit other churches or somebody on your staff or team or whatever. But just let's talk about maybe that open meeting concept. Does anything strike you as I talk about that?
Yeah, I think when it has worked well is when we know what this meeting is about. Like this meeting has a clear purpose, you know, there's an agenda. We are a generally pretty relaxed staff. know, nobody's coming in like hyper crazy or anything. There's like a relaxed atmosphere, but everybody's clear about, you know, the direction it's going and it allows space for opening the meeting with just a quick like, hey, welcome so and so here's what we do here.
Sarah (56:35.97)
And you can say that quickly. you can say that quickly because you know, and then you can move in and they, know, welcome to interject or ask a question as the meeting goes on. But I think, again, it happens best in those meetings that we understand why we're there and what we're doing. And so it doesn't feel threatening or awkward to have someone else in there. That's my first thought.
Yeah, and I go to, you know, just the idea that we're all in ministry in the kingdom together and in terms of like what we can provide for somebody that might want to sit in one of our meetings, could be beneficial to them. It's also really good for us. It is huge. Like we have such a we've got such a focus on what we're doing here at Grace, which is good. It's awesome. Great work. Super glad to be a part of it.
these meetings we have, the dynamics we have, all of it is good, but man, we can learn and glean and so much better for inviting people into our space, around our table to learn from them, to be challenged, to be humbled by them in certain areas. So I think again, there's mutual benefit, which I think that's why it's so valuable.
So true.
Derek (57:50.958)
It's like that outside eyes, right?
How often do we get this tunnel vision of like well we got to do it within these parameters and then somebody says something like never thought about that before. So I think it's it's it's sharpening. Yeah, on both ends.
Yeah, and even like it almost it holds up a mirror even before they walk in the door It holds up a mirror to you and your meaning because you're you're like, outside observer Yeah, why are we here? What are we doing? You know those kinds of things and then yeah, like maybe we'll Go off the rails less
Yeah.
Andrew (58:21.484)
Yeah.
I mean.
Hey
I'm not going to name any names or point any fingers, but...
But Danielle's really rough.
Danielle (58:28.206)
In case you're listening, everyone's pointing at Derek.
First take like speed round take on the me opening my schedule and what what what just what pops into your mind of like good bad ugly on that idea
Bad would be, I can go bad all day. I think bad would just be, I think you said it though, you need to decide what is the, what's the group? What's the development group? It can't be everybody.
Right.
Danielle (59:06.542)
But other people could do it for other people. It doesn't have to just... You know, but it could be a cool model.
No, exactly.
I think you'd be surprised at what some people are interested in. I think you'd be like, you are not the one I would have guessed would wanted to be here.
Agreed.
Derek (59:21.77)
See, the fascinating thing about you saying that is when Dave first said it, I'm like, nobody would want to. What? Yeah, I'm serious.
Derek (59:33.422)
You'll be getting your job done.
You should stretch like sharing a sweater.
Yeah, this is one of those moments. Like, I know you're humble and I know you're just one of the pastors here, but like in this moment you're kind of a big deal and people would be interested, yeah.
Okay.
Derek (59:48.866)
That's interesting. mean, yeah, that's.
Yeah, just from a training and development standpoint, I'm thinking about my own experience and you know my my journey into full-time ministry and to be able to learn from somebody that again I look up to and respect and and yeah, that would be a great benefit Yeah, yeah, that'd be cool
And again, just to clarify, because I would think it would be more of like a first come first serve. So it's like not everybody could come to the... One person. Like one person. So like first one to pop in on this, know, can, because I wouldn't want to overwhelm anybody that I was meeting with or anything like that. like, so yeah, more of like a one...
We have have a minute to win at game So we got this. We'll handle this for you.
That's next, the Seagulls podcast.
Sarah (01:00:36.462)
I'm picturing Black Friday. The calendar opens up at 9 a.m. People are lined up overnight, sleeping outside the oven for people.
We're sleeping bags with war paint ready. And then there's like five of us that are like.
Yeah, no, I've been doing this for 30 years, like, give me a break.
No, but I agree with Sarah. think you're like, yeah. Thanks. Back to your corners.
That's cool. Cool. Thanks guys.
Danielle (01:01:09.582)
Okay, so we let them back into their cages. Just finishing it up. Let's talk about tips and tools. You, yeah, just with the new year coming, I feel like this is a really good one. So yeah.
So we're just entering December here and I think people start to think not only about Christmas, but there's the turning of the page, you know, of the calendar. one of the things, one of the practices I've worked into my life for a long time is usually between Christmas and New Year sometime, I take a moment to look back, look ahead a little bit. And I found it to be a really helpful practice. I think it's like, you know, everybody lives their life, not everybody interprets it. And so, you know, we all are aware of the passing of time.
But I think one of things that separates people that are kinda pushing the ball forward a little bit is that they're taking inventory at certain times. Going, what worked, what didn't, what should I do going forward? And so I just think this time of year is just a great time to do that. And so I've used different tools and resources over the years. Last year I created one that I actually shared, and I'm gonna share the same one this year but put a little bit of different texture around it. Because I do think that it, and it's just 15 questions,
of examine and examine. this practice of examine is an actually ancient Christian practice. You know, it came from St. Ignatius of Loyola. And it was just kind of to to to pay attention to the movements of God in your ordinary life. It's normally and we've got tools around this, too. It's normally like a nightly practice that you look back at your day. Yeah.
say where was God moving, where did I join him, did I ignore him, you know, and so it's a confessional and it's just a way to examine your day. So I've kind of reclaimed that Christian tradition and said, let's use that same spirit in an annual way.
Danielle (01:03:06.968)
By the way, before we do the annual thing, sorry not to derail you. No, you're I just read a thing recently, and I guess I knew this, but if you do practices like this, and it was framed around kids, like, I'm sure everybody, like if you ask a kid, like what was the brightest part of your day kind of a thing, if humans go to bed thinking about those things, it literally does something to your neuro pathways, where you start to like, if you wanna work on gratitude.
interest.
That should be the last thing you're thinking about like before you go to bed. So I don't know it does some thing. I'll finally But so anyway
And what's fascinating about that is like, so when I look back, and know, my kids rolled their eyes, but like, kind of doing that naturally as our kids grew up. Like when we were on vacation, every camcorder video of me and the kids on vacation was the highlight of today. And like just having them talk, I want to hear their voices. And have them kind of record it. But that was always the question that we would come to. So that's fascinating.
So yeah, an annual examine essentially into say this year, looking back at 2025, looking ahead at 2026. And I created 15 questions. I think they're all interesting questions. There are ways to kind of trigger the brain in different ways to think about, you know, this year and next year. And so I'll just give a couple examples here, three or four. And there are 15 of these kind of questions that I would encourage people, you know, between now and the end of the year, maybe between Christmas and New Year when things settle down for a minute.
Derek (01:04:35.426)
get a couple hours, get a cup of coffee. That's good. Get a journal and a pen, maybe get your calendar. Yeah. your calendar for the next year. And I think this is a time to make sure that your compass and your calendar, your directional ideas and your actual schedule match. for example, a couple of questions. If 2025 were a book of my life, what would its title and most pivotal chapter title be?
This is where you don't want my internal. That's a good question.
I do so bad Yeah, just like name the year, you know name what the title is What moments from this past year felt like the most vivid life-defining? Snapshots of who I am becoming right? That's a good question. It's great When I think about the people who impacted my year the most who stands out and why so again Just invite you look and this is where it'd be helpful to have your calendar Yeah digital schedule just to go back and go through months and meetings and like who was it that?
oh man, I met with so-and-so this year, that was actually a shift for me, that shifted something in me. I think just being able to mark those moments is really powerful. And then here's just one look ahead one, what areas of my life do I hope to grow in next year and what first steps will I take to nurture that growth? And so again, just a collection of 15 questions that are kinda like that, I'll just give you a taste of them that'll be included with the email list for those of you that are on that.
you that aren't, get on there. There's lots of free stuff like this that we're giving away every week.
Danielle (01:06:05.486)
Yeah, you can find that derekstanford.com forward slash reinventing church. Okay, I mean, that's great. If you like this episode, you can tell us by leaving a rating or review. And again, please share it with someone that you think would benefit from it. We only have one. For the season. Yeah. And again, yeah, you can get those show notes related resources at his website. And yeah, so we'll see you next week.
One more.
Derek (01:06:30.574)
See next week.