#135 Recruiting 101 with Peggy Shell, Creative Alignments

In this episode of the Startup CPG Podcast, Daniel Scharff, together with Peggy Shell, the founder of Creative Alignments delve into the challenges faced by startups in traditional recruiting models and the innovative time-based recruiting approach pioneered by Creative Alignments. Peggy shares insights on the drawbacks of percentage-based fee structures, emphasizing the importance of aligning company values, culture, and compensation for sustainable growth.

Uncover the secrets of DIY recruiting for startups, including strategic decision-making points, behavioral-based interview questions, and negotiation strategies. Discover the significance of pay transparency and intentional sourcing to foster diversity in hiring. Peggy guides leaders in creating an inclusive workplace culture, offering tips on fostering belonging, recognition, and empathy.

Whether you're a startup enthusiast or in the natural products industry, this podcast provides actionable strategies for building powerful teams. Tune in now!

Listen in as Peggy shares about:

DIY Recruiting Elements for Startups

Challenges with Traditional Recruiting

Creative Alignments' Model

Factors in Attracting Talent

Creating an Inclusive Workplace and Diversity in Hiring

Negotiation Strategies and Pay Transparency

Behavioral-Based Interview Questions

Transparency in Leadership

Equity in Compensation

Experience vs. Soft Skills in Hiring

References and Backdoor References

Episode Links:

Creative Alignments Website

Peggy’s LinkedIn

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Show Links:

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• Questions or comments about the episode? Email Daniel at [e-mail]
• Episode music by Super Fantastics

Creators & Guests

Host

Daniel Scharff

Founder/CEO, Startup CPG

What is The Startup CPG Podcast?

A podcast from Startup CPG - highlighting stories from founders working towards a better food system and industry insights from experts to give you a better chance at success.

Peggy Shell
For early stage companies, whether your state requires it or not, which only a few do at this point. Colorado, New York, California, there's something called pay transparency. It's really to try to create equitability, gender equitability, as well as racial and ethnic so that what you've made in the past doesn't determine what you get offered in the future. You should get offered what you should get offered regardless of your race, gender.

00:34
Daniel Scharff
Hello, CPG ers. Welcome to the Startup CPG podcast. I'm your host Daniel Sharf. In today's episode, we're talking to Peggy Shell. She's the founder of Creative Alignments, which is our startup CPG partner for recruiting. Peggy is such a pro. She taught me all about how to recruit and hire on your own mistakes to avoid the things you really need to get right, and with a big focus on just being really transparent throughout the whole process. It's a very inspiring model and conversation and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. If you want to reach out to them, you can email [e-mail] or [e-mail] and mention startup CPG for some special perks.

01:14
Daniel Scharff
I really do believe that they're the best partner for early brands because you don't want to pay some crazy 25 30% of a first year salary model that will end up costing you so much money as you grow. They have a much more reasonable hourly model. Enjoy the episode. Welcome to the Startup CPG podcast. Today I am delighted to have Peggy Shell as our guest. Peggy is the founder of Creative Alignments. They're our trusted recruiting partner. They have this unique hourly billing model called time based recruiting and extensive CPG industry experience. They have revolutionized the way that a lot of startups are building their teams for growth. They save an incredible amount on recruiting costs. None of this like 30% of a first year salary type stuff that early brands can't afford.

02:00
Daniel Scharff
So I love talking to Peggy because she has worked with so many brands from the community, mission driven startups to establish brands. Her team has helped companies of all sizes find talent that they need to succeed. I'm really excited to get into this podcast where we're really going to cover a lot of DIY type recruiting elements. Very excited for everybody to learn from her experience. Peggy, welcome to the show.

02:22
Peggy Shell
Thank you. Super glad to be here.

02:24
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, I love this topic. Know as somebody who's been an operator, I've gone out for hires and just like shock of a lifetime where you're like oh, I guess because I tried posting on LinkedIn, I didn't really get what I was looking for, so. Well, are there recruiting agencies out there? Maybe I'll reach out to one. Then they're like, yeah, we can help you. It's going to be 30% of their first year salary, which if you're finding, like, 150k type person, that's going to be the worst check you ever write. Like 50k for a hire. That man, if your network was just a little bit bigger or you got the right timely referral from somebody, or even worse, like, you start with them and then someone's like, oh, I have the perfect person for you.

03:09
Daniel Scharff
And you have to actually put them through that process because you're working with them already. And it's just like, oh, it's so bad. The 50K, right? It reminds me of my first apartment I got in New York. Where? New York. For apartment rentals, you basically have to use a broker. It's not true. In California. And then, yeah, you're writing a similar size check, and you're like, I'm giving.

03:29
Peggy Shell
Your firstborns first year salary, too, and everything else. No, it's actually how I got into recruiting, believe it or not, because I started as an in house HR person, I didn't really have experience. This was just kind of a known entity that hired me to help with their HR operations, really figuring I could learn on the fly. And recruiting was one of the things that I was tasked with. And so I hired an external recruiter, and it was two hires, and it was like $50,000 or something, the checks. And these were okay hires in the end. I know that they were, because I was so green. I know that they were, like, pretty much their first few candidates. They didn't spend a ton of effort, and I literally was, like, blown away.

04:10
Peggy Shell
I mean, I knew, obviously going into it, how much it was going to cost, but I remember telling the founder of this company, like, I am sorry. I will learn recruiting on my own so that you do not have to pay this check again. That was it. From then on, I was like, no, that's not going to be how I do recruiting, both in house and externally.

04:27
Daniel Scharff
That's wild. It is sort of like, if you're going to pay some crazy fee like that, if you're going to hire, like, two people a year, that's basically a full time recruiter salary. You might as well at that. I never understood why people were bringing recruiters in house, but then I saw that number, I'm like.

04:41
Peggy Shell
Well, that. Yeah, exactly. No, I mean, listen, single hire, super crazy important budget is not an issue. I understand why people make that decision once in a while. It's just not repeatable. And that's what creative alignments allows, is for smaller companies that don't have quite the same budget to over and over again use us for their hiring while they're scaling that. You could use an external recruiter for one hire, but don't you want to be able to have that be a repeatable performance and thing you can lean on? So it's been fun.

05:12
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, well, I totally agree. And anyone in the community knows why. This is why I'm so supportive of you guys because I know so many people who have worked with you. And yeah, you can find the hires basically paying a very reasonable hourly rate. You get great people. And it's not just like starter stuff. You can fill your whole exec team, even if you're a big brand, using you guys. Because, yeah, you guys are experts and you have years of experience, but it's not like this process is unknowable, like how it actually works. You don't need my fifty k to make a business actually work. And recruiting, that's such a crazy amount. So kudos for you. And I think it's a big service to the community for you. Building this model that actually makes sense for grants.

05:53
Peggy Shell
Good. And really cost wasn't even necessarily the reason we've stuck with the model. The model provides less of a conflict of interest. It provides alignment. I mean, hence the name. But truly we're aligned with our clients. We're not incentivized by a particular person getting hired or a person getting paid a certain amount. We're like an in house team member for our clients and it's just much more aligned. It just also happens to be that it allows your budget to go further, which is great. Win win.

06:25
Daniel Scharff
Yes. We need that money, other stuff. And like, unexpected random California lawsuit, just the gauntlet. The full gauntlet. So in a second, I want to really get into what diy recruiting looks like also, but just to start you, because I know you've worked with a bunch of people in the community. Do you mind just kind of like giving a tangible example or two of like, here's who it was, here's what we did for them. And really, this is how much money you can actually.

06:51
Peggy Shell
Yes. Well, we started because we're based in Boulder. We started, I mean, there's such a mecca of the natural products industry here in Boulder. And so it started as kind of like a cute set of referrals. And I say cute because I always thought like, oh, not knowing the natural products industry at the time, these were brands I love to eat, but they were small, right. And so we worked with a number of those and then our experience grew and then we got referred to Rxbar and they were about 15 people at the time and we ended up being their main recruiting partner up until they got bought by Kellogg's and they introduced us to Halo Top. We did 90 hires for Halo Top in one year and it just really grew from there. So we have a ton of experience.

07:34
Peggy Shell
Half of our business is in natural products now. The other half is in technology, really focused in climate technology. And so we've worked with some of the fastest growing brands. Like I said, those two included. I know a part of your community is fourth and hard. I'm looking over to my left here because I just pulled up their stats. We did three executive hires for them so we placed their vp of marketing, sales and operations. So all three of their exec team members. And in those three hires we averaged eight and a half percent of the first year salary and we saved them almost $100,000 compared to a 25% contingency recruiter. So I mean, kind of a no brainer, right?

08:12
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. And I know, well, yeah, my friend Max is the CEO there and he was formerly the CFO so I can tell you for sure what to do with that 100k. He's going to make some magic happen with that.

08:26
Peggy Shell
Exactly.

08:26
Daniel Scharff
So that's awesome. Yeah. He's been a huge supporter of yours and actually is the one who introduced us as like, hey, for your community, you should meet these guys. This is a very good model and that's crazy about halo top. So they were hiring like two people a week, right, when they hit that early trajectory where everyone's discovered this.

08:46
Peggy Shell
Yeah. And I think for them we averaged about 4% of the first year salary. It was just really low. It was really fast. The recruiting process, obviously they were a rocket ship, but we've had others. Cauliflower, I think we placed 60 people for over the years as they grew. And Ollipop, were their growth partner until they brought it in house. It often makes sense that at some points a company brings it in house and that tends to be the graduation, if you will.

09:14
Daniel Scharff
I imagine you guys definitely do a lot of executive level searches and heads of marketing and even you need a director of sales. And what about even all the way down to like, hey, I need a sales rep just for Los Angeles. Who's got.

09:28
Peggy Shell
Yeah, and I'll just, you know, look at. So, like, cauliflower is a great example, just to give you a sense. Actually, it's 46 hires. We saved them almost $700,000 over those hires. 9% of the first year salary is the average. And to give you a sense of some of the names, SVP of operations, that's executive. We've got some vps in there, but we have field marketing. Field sales, marketing rep, brand manager, shopper, marketing manager, associate director, marketing, a customer service representative, a trade spend analyst, supply chain manager. Across the board. Across the board. All levels, too. Yeah.

10:05
Daniel Scharff
And I know these savings are if you're paying kind of like a reasonable 25%, but, yeah, it can be up to 30%. Could be even more true. And I think with you guys, it can be like, I don't know, maybe 10% or something if you're kind of doing higher. And then it can go down if.

10:24
Peggy Shell
You'Re just pulled a random one. But. Vp of supply chain for Kali power, 29 hours it took. So that was. I don't even know the salary, but probably 3% of the first year salary or something like that.

10:37
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, we'll try not to give out anyone's salary. We'll tell the bank account amount.

10:46
Peggy Shell
Exactly. Here's their name, their Social Security number.

10:50
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. Tune in next week for just net worth by individual. Okay. So I'd love to just go through what people can actually do, even if they just want to try and do it on their own, because that's probably the first instinct for most people, is like, let me at least give it a shot, because we're scrappy. But first of all, what kind of a people plan should you have if you're like a new brand, you're starting, you're the founder, maybe you raise a little bit of money, or you're just still kind of self funding or whatever, and you're just starting to think about hires and stuff. How do you talk to people about getting ready for that and how to think about it?

11:24
Peggy Shell
Yeah, there is a certain stage where even though we're less expensive, so there is a stage where companies are not yet working with us. But I work with those brands often, and I always say, augment yourself first. So if you're really great at sales and marketing, and that's your zone of genius to use the big leap. I don't know if you've read that book, excellent book, by the way. But to use that concept, figure out where you operate best where you are happiest, where things flow and then augment yourself. So if you're really a visionary and you like to do strategy, most likely you're pretty good at sales and marketing because you can sell that passion. So augment yourself as an integrator or an operator, or somebody who can really focus on the operations or vice versa.

12:02
Peggy Shell
I think an instinct is to hire a salesperson right away, and that's not a bad idea in consumer products. But I think as the founder, you're probably going to be the best salesperson. Unless it's just truly not your deal and you're just like a food scientist or somebody who just is all about the food, then fine.

12:18
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, just a comment on that. I am so sales oriented as a founder, and I love doing sales and I feel like I'm really good at it. I have so much passion for the stuff that I do, and it's always going to be really impactful. I hate finance. I don't care about it all. I don't want to do it. So I would definitely bring someone on for that. And marketing, I don't feel like I understand either. So those kind of things. But yeah, even with PR type outreach, I've kind of made the mistake of bringing on an agency early, like, yeah, great, you're going to get us a bunch of stuff, and then they just still don't get the kind of response that you as the founder would get.

12:51
Daniel Scharff
If you can find the time, which it's another kind of sales, but just you personally reaching out to people with passion. And now, I mean, hey, we've got this podcast. I get pitched for stuff all the time. Yeah, if I get pitched by a PR person, you're not even from our community, they obviously aren't pitching me and not them. And we just kind of brush it aside and I just imagine it means so much more. Unfortunately, as a founder, you can't do everything, obviously. So you do have to start finding people who can embody that same passion. That's right.

13:17
Peggy Shell
Or scale yourself with some automations and digital stuff, which I'm the wrong person to ask about that. And I would say, like finance, you probably can use a fractional resource for a while or bring in somebody part time. Same thing with some of these other really just specific functions. I don't think you need that all in house, but I do think, I know there's this real trend towards fractional everything. And I know some brands have really had great luck with that. I don't think you can underestimate that no matter what your product or service is, we're all in the people business. And the stronger culture you have in your organization that you get to build from the people that you hire that's going to bring so much goodness to everything. They're the ones communicating with your customers.

13:58
Peggy Shell
They're with the ones communicating with your brokers. There's the ones communicating with each other and selling the brand. So I'm a fan of in house. I'm a fan of thinking about culture early as you bring people on, it starts from the second you put a job posting out there to tell you the truth. Right. It comes from how do you present yourself? What are the benefits? And I recognize when you're small, I'm not talking traditional benefits, but are you going to meet somebody where they're at? Are you going to allow flexibility for them to pick up their kid from school? Are you going to recognize that they have doctors appointments, whatever. And building it early in so that it can kind of have a life of its own is really going to help your recruiting plan. I mean, it just will.

14:37
Peggy Shell
First of all, you'll have better retention, but then you'll have people refer people that they worked with before. And so that lowers your recruiting costs. And you can sell that employment brand at some point. You can market it and you can sell it just like you sell your brand to consumers.

14:51
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, that's pretty interesting to hear you talk about that. I mean, one just on the kind of fractional and consultants contractor piece, I definitely make good use of that. And I think for me especially, it was important to do it to be scrappy because you can find great people, you can find offshore people. And using something like upwork that does a great job of managing time also and kind of tracking things for you is great. But I think the dream is really to have the team in house because like you mentioned, the culture is really important and having people be part of the team and just really part of your mission, not just one of the things that they do.

15:28
Daniel Scharff
And I think also eventually it is going to come down to things like your own time management because it is just more time to manage contractors if it's not just something that's so routine. Right. Like you got to explain things more, you got to be spending more time with them and they're less likely to give you that extra juice from their creative brain to come up with some game changing idea because they're up late at night thinking about your business. Like probably not getting. That's a great special sauce from them, right. So yeah, I mean, you got to do what you got to do. I love using offshore people and contractors for stuff, but yeah, I really am excited to, at least for my business, continue bringing on full time people. And it's not as hard as you think.

16:09
Daniel Scharff
I just kind of have gone through the process of setting up full time payroll and all that stuff. You can do it through gusto. I've talked to some people who work at small businesses and they're like, oh, they can't afford health insurance and stuff, but it's actually not that much. I mean, I think they don't know how to do it. But actually if you do it, there are good kind of entry level tiers and stuff that you can, you don't.

16:33
Peggy Shell
Have to cover a huge percentage, but at least you're offering it.

16:36
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, like it's available. People need that, so it's good.

16:39
Peggy Shell
I totally agree. And I think a lot of founders are short sighted because they're cash crunched and they get short sighted and they forget that let's say you want the best, whatever, marketing person, salesperson, supply chain person or whatnot. You're like, wow, we're small, we really can't pay and we can't offer benefits. I'm like, first of all, you're going to get what you pay for a little bit. Not entirely, but you also are going to lose. Let's say you do attract this great person, but you're way underpaid or your benefits aren't as great. They're probably going to leave and you got the cost of replacing them. Not to mention that you maybe didn't get the full value from the best person you can get. So it's a balance.

17:15
Peggy Shell
You can't produce money you don't have, but you also, especially if you're raising money, I always tell people who are raising money, be realistic when you're raising money so that you have enough to go to people's salaries at the market price.

17:29
Daniel Scharff
I had a friend who was working for a startup and gosh, they were like, great, we're going to bring you on full time. And gave her a super terrible offer. It was like low and it did not have health insurance, it did not have equity. And so then she went to negotiate it and they were like, well, you're obviously not as excited about this as we are, so then you're not the right fit. I was like, this is so unbelievable because you're like underpaying this person and giving them no equity upside and you want them to work around the clock. Nobody cares about your dream unless you give them a reason to get that part of that.

18:03
Peggy Shell
I mean, there's three parts, I think, to attracting and exciting people. And there's a lot of parts, but there's three things. One is are you aligned in what the purpose of the company is? Low sugar? Is it health based? Is it whatever, is it sustainable packaging, something that they're excited about from the actual product? Two is, do you provide them purpose internally and a sense of belonging? So do you see them as individuals? Do you honor them? Do they have a voice? Is that uncomfortable in the negotiation process? Like all of that stuff, it comes into play, right? And people want a place where they feel like, oh, I'm me, I get to be me here. And that's really changing. That's very much going to be the norm far more than when were younger. And then the third is the actual package.

18:42
Peggy Shell
What is the employment value proposition? What are the benefits? What's the compensation? What's my professional development opportunity? Da da. Right? That make up this thing that make it worth staying. Awesome.

18:54
Daniel Scharff
And it'll be different for different industries. And you can have flex more one. Like, okay, if you're a reporter and you get a job offer from the New York Times, probably it's a bad salary, but oh my God, it's going to be a lifetime. Yeah, you're going to learn so much and then you're going to go on to do just whatever you want. Maybe you'll win a Pulitzer totally along the way, who knows, right? Totally. Yeah. But most early startups are not going to have that kind of credibility. I can say from my career, okay, I've had jobs where, gosh, I believed in the product so much and that kept me there even if I felt like I was undervalued or underpaid or didn't just get what I was looking for there. I just love the products and it was a good learning experience.

19:33
Daniel Scharff
Right. And then there are other companies where, yeah, it's a good learning experience and I get paid well, even though I really dislike the culture, hopefully. Yeah, you get the trinity of those really cranking and then you're in.

19:47
Peggy Shell
That's right, stay there.

19:48
Daniel Scharff
All right, so back to how we actually go about recruiting people. When do you think you actually need to go out and hire somebody? And let's say imagine a scenario where you're very tight on cash and maybe you're funding it out of a bank account. Maybe you have a couple of hundred k there versus a situation where you've raised a little bit of money, how would you think about knowing exactly when's the time to do it?

20:11
Peggy Shell
Yeah. Different for everybody. And it depends on the role. The role is probably what makes it needed or not. First of all, I think there is a phase and a stage where hiring people who land in your lap through your network as long as they're qualified, not just like your cousin's brother sister because they happen to breathe and read, but qualified enough. Like, okay, that's all right, but your network will run out at some point. So definitely at that point where you feel like, gosh, I'm just not getting the referrals like, the strong referrals in, that's a good time to start to think externally, but even earlier than that is like, it's really niche. You know, that you're going to settle. If you're just going to depend on applicants, you're not good or don't have the time to go source candidates.

20:53
Peggy Shell
And we'll talk about that on how to do it. And you need to make sure that you are picking from the best talent pool and not just settling for the best applicant.

21:03
Daniel Scharff
Let's talk about that a little bit more because that's pretty interesting. Let's say I've been in scenarios where, yeah, I was announcing a role or maybe about to, and someone was like, hey, I have a friend who's looking, are you interested in this person? How do you know if that person is like, you talk to them, maybe you like them. Is that the right person? Or like, gosh, there may be someone who's such a better fit out there. Should I go through all of the effort and process to do it? I might even piss this person off or lose them and do that.

21:28
Peggy Shell
I actually think it's always good to go through the same process, even whether you externally bring in a recruiter or not. So the process may be you actually write a job description and think about what it is that this person is going to be held to, what makes them successful in the first 30, 60, 90 year of their time there you do a job ad. If you're going to go out on your own and market it, think about a job ad different than a job description. Job description is like, what you're going to hold them to. Job ad is marketing. So think about, like, how do you sell it? I think it's good to get clear on the same, let's say, ten questions that are behavioral based.

22:05
Peggy Shell
So behavioral based means tell me about a time when or tell me about examples from or what was an experience you had. That and those then allow you to know what's actually happened in the past. So you can use that to know what might happen in the future, rather than asking a question like, are you organized? And they're like, oh, yeah, I'm organized. Right? Instead you say, tell me about a time where your organizational structure didn't work for you and you had to adjust it. Or tell me about a time when you were so fortunate to have had such a great organizational system. Right. That's behavioral based interviewing. So figure out your set of questions that get at what actually matters for that role. So every role requires something different.

22:46
Peggy Shell
It may be like this person's really introverted, but actually for this role, it's good. It's analyst or it's a supply chain person or something where it's like, well, maybe that wouldn't be, but whereas if you get a really shy, quiet person who you're going to put in a sales role, that may not work depending on yourself. So figure out the skill sets, figure out the experience sets, write those questions, and try to be consistent when you interview everyone. And I would say, don't just hire the one person, like always have some comparative set. It doesn't have to be twelve people, it can be two. And if, you know, your gut tells you, gosh, this person's awesome. You don't have to wait until you have a slate of candidates to compare them to maybe one other. Don't lose them in that process.

23:26
Peggy Shell
And it's a fluid process, in my opinion. I think traditional recruiting firms try to slate candidates. Here's your bunch. And that's just not how people work. You might lose some of the best ones in the process if you wait for that. Is that easier?

23:38
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, it does. Yeah. And I was just thinking maybe you and I can work on like a list of 25 or 30 behavioral questions trying to choose from for their own.

23:47
Peggy Shell
We have a database of that, and there's lots of resources out there. If you type in behavioral based interview question for compassion, behavioral based interview questions for organization, like, you will find things.

23:58
Daniel Scharff
No, I totally agree with you from a negotiation standpoint, also about having multiple options because it's so easy. Like as a founder who's mining your budget, you might say, okay, this person's great. And then you get into the negotiation, it turns out they're asking more, or there are things you didn't understand. And then ideally you have two candidates that you, and then, okay, you can make a decision. Like, I can take this person, but they're asking for 120, or this other person is asking for 160, like, yeah, okay, you need that extra 40k for the next thing you're going to need.

24:27
Peggy Shell
And one other suggestion, especially for early stage company, is whether your state requires it or not, which only a few do at this point. Colorado, New York, California. There's something called pay transparency. It's really to try to create equitability, gender equitability, as well as racial and ethnic, so that what you've made in the past doesn't determine what you get offered in the future. You should get offered what you should get offered regardless of your race, gender, et cetera. So I'm a big fan of it. I've seen it play out in Colorado. It is very hard to implement later. So if you are an early stage company, think about pay transparency from the start, which means you create kind of bands of sorts, even if it feels forced and you don't totally know yet. And when you market the job, say what the range is.

25:13
Peggy Shell
It can be a range. It should be pretty small, that range, not like 60 to 120 depending on experience, but it could be 80 to 100 depending on experience, and have that be a really open conversation early. It's going to help you avoid a lot of headache.

25:29
Daniel Scharff
What's the downside of having a broader range? Because I think that's probably what most people would be like. How am I going to define this? What if they have more experience than I'm expecting? Or what if I can get someone good who's really experienced?

25:39
Peggy Shell
Yeah, well, what you can do in that situation is you could market it as a lower level role and you can always up it for a person to a title that is in the next level. So maybe you market like a marketing associate and you can make it a marketing manager or something. But the disadvantage, well, first of all, in the states that require it, like I mentioned, a broad range isn't even legal. It has to be like just defendable or whatever the word would be. So that if somebody came back and said, I was discriminated against, you can say, well, no, it was the range. But also, everybody's going to want to be on the higher side. I mean, they're just going to negotiate for that. So I think you want to be within a range where you can say, no. Here's why.

26:15
Peggy Shell
You're at 80 instead of 100 or 85 instead of 100. It's a lot harder. Like 60 to 120 is hard to like. If you're going to market that's hard.

26:24
Daniel Scharff
To just putting myself in the shoes of a founder. Negotiations are uncomfortable for sure, and it sucks if also you're going to be managing them and you have to do it because it's not fun. It definitely can sour a relationship. But I think, especially as a founder, if you do have a couple of options anyways, you're going to have a lot more confidence about sticking to the range. And based on their experience.

26:50
Peggy Shell
It actually helps avoid the uncomfortable situations later. I wasn't sure how it was going to play out. Colorado implemented it maybe two years ago, and were nervous because I was like, oh, like, this is just part of the game that we all play, right? Well, you know what? It turns out that it's actually really targeted. The only the people who are comfortable with that range apply. For the most part. Some people hope they can apply and then talk you up to a higher amount. And sometimes that happens, and then, you know, right away in the conversation you say, here's a salary range. Are you comfortable with that in Colorado and in other states, you cannot ask what they've made in the past. And I think that's going to become national at some point.

27:27
Peggy Shell
So you cannot say, what were you being paid at such and such company? It's all about, are you fine with this range?

27:34
Daniel Scharff
And you could say, yeah, are you fine with this range? Or maybe if you're in a state where you don't want to do that and it's not a requirement yet, could you say, like, what's your salary requirement?

27:42
Peggy Shell
Can't say requirement. You could say something around, what are you looking for? Technically, no, we technically cannot say that. Even I think I could be wrong. Maybe in some states you can, but I think it's not wise, though. That's always what I said for 20 years. That's what I asked. I believe now if you say that, somebody's going to come back and say, well, here's what I'm making now you have that information, and now how are you not going to use that? And maybe that's good because you want to pay a little bit less if you can and still make the person happy.

28:15
Peggy Shell
But I just think for the good end of society, long term, I think it's best practice to say, is this going to work for you, that this range is going to be in here and you're probably on the low end of it, given your experience set.

28:27
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, it's pretty interesting. I mean, just to be very pragmatic about it, like, yes, every founder, I don't think they necessarily are like, bad people who want to underpaid people, they don't want to overpay either. But anytime I have a friend who's looking for a job, the first thing I'll tell them is if they ask you what you're making, do not tell them exactly. And defer that conversation to be like, well, maybe once I understand the role and responsibilities better, we can talk about it. Or can you tell me the range for it?

28:56
Peggy Shell
Exactly. Ask the range exactly. Can you tell me what the range is going to be so that I can give you a sense of whether that's going to work for me or not?

29:03
Daniel Scharff
Yeah.

29:03
Peggy Shell
And I just think once we all go to that's going to make things so much easier. Hence why I was saying, if you're an early stage company, just put in place from the start, make it super transparent. Then you'll just avoid that later.

29:13
Daniel Scharff
And if you are open to people at more experience, because probably like you listed, if I'm a marketing director and I see a marketing manager role out there, probably most of the time I'm just moving on and not even applying to it. But do you typically recommend put in a bullet point that's like, hey, do you have more experience or do you want to talk to us? Feel free to.

29:30
Peggy Shell
Yeah, for the right experience that we could be open to moving this into a higher level role. Or say the title. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's wise.

29:37
Daniel Scharff
Okay, great. So let's say now I have the role that I want scoped out. If you're hiring, what is a good way to figure out what that range could be? What are some kind of diy tools that people can use to figure out the right range for position, whether it's remote or in a specific location?

29:54
Peggy Shell
You're talking compensation range. Well, first of all, I mean, truly not even just trying to give you kudos for this, but I imagine on your slack channel it's a great place to get a sense of, does this feel like it's in the right range or not? So I would totally go to startup CPG. There's a lot of tools out there like salary and things like that. Just know that those are job seeker input people. Those are people input data versus employer input data. That makes sense. So sometimes people put in ranges that they hope to make or they want to make, and it's not necessarily 100% accurate. I think it's getting better. There are companies like we work with Cura, HR for our compensation reports. Those reports are employer driven data. So it's accurate.

30:39
Peggy Shell
It's based on an actual census from employers who submit this data. So just know that I think salary and Glassdoor, I think that they can give you good general ranges. I would socialize it. I would ask your friends, I would ask other founders, I would ask people in the industry, I would send a note to somebody, you don't even know who you're like. They probably know because they've been doing this long enough and say, random question, I know you've never met me, but I have this company and this is what I'm trying to do. And do you think this is in the right range? People like to help that.

31:07
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, that's a good point. And I've done that definitely. Especially with sales roles. We'd be like, all right, well, let me ask another salesperson in that kind of a role. Now. Also know that they probably believe whatever their job is, it should better paid, so they might give you something a little more aspirational. But yeah, I like the multiple sources.

31:24
Peggy Shell
Of yeah, and if you're working with us, we work on so many roles and we have so much data in our database of all the hires we've made that we share that information. Like we think you're low doesn't mean you shouldn't go out with that. Just know that it's going to limit your talent pool or we think you're right in range and that's great. And then we'll know better once we start talking to candidates. So stay tuned.

31:42
Daniel Scharff
That kind of so and then, yeah, I think you mentioned the startup CPG slack. We do have the biggest free jobs board in the industry. I love when you guys post actually some of your roles. So that's a pro tip for job seekers out there. You can see tons of cool stuff, including the job openings that creative alignments is working on. I know you guys have gotten some great candidates through there and actually really cool stuff. Even like some people go CEO hunting on our job board as well. And yeah, like you were saying, you can read through a bunch of those postings also and just see what the salaries are totally. That they're talking about.

32:13
Peggy Shell
You can look on Google too, by the way, for states where they have to post. Now that's the other good thing about pay transparency is you can find out salary ranges online.

32:21
Daniel Scharff
I think I've used. Indeed, that's a good one for some diY. You can put in the location, the level, and see some actual higher range stuff.

32:31
Peggy Shell
Yeah.

32:31
Daniel Scharff
Cool. So honestly, one of the biggest challenges that I had when I was trying to do it on my own is like, okay, I would set up the LinkedIn free thing, which I think they made a lot more difficult. Like, you can get like 15 or 20 links like submissions that are all probably not good, and then they close your thing and you're kind of screwed. So I would maybe create a Google form and then try to post that on my own LinkedIn and a couple of different places. And maybe a third of the time I was able to find somebody by doing that. But one of the biggest problems is if I was hiring for operations or sales especially, I was not getting very diverse candidate. And I believe in diversity.

33:07
Daniel Scharff
I really want great diverse people and thought in anything that I'm doing, and I was a little stuck. This is not a diverse pool. And the responsibility, like, really, I need to get out there and make sure that I'm sourcing great candidates for this. So what do you think? What suggestion?

33:21
Peggy Shell
Yeah, no, I really appreciate this conversation. I am actually on the think take for OSC and their Jedi collaborative for this reason, the natural product, and I'm also involved with Project Potluck. But the natural product industry is woefully not diverse. It is. I mean, actually gender wise, it is a quite diverse industry, but beyond that, skin color, ethnicity, LGBTQ, I mean, it is woefully not diverse. That means that you do have to put some intentionality behind the sourcing. If you post a job and that's all you do, you are not going to get a diverse talent pool in the natural products industry right now. That may change as the demographics of our country are changing rapidly, but that's actually only going to change by starting with internship programs and things like that, in my opinion. And that's what we're working on. So intentionality sourcing.

34:11
Peggy Shell
So what does that look like? It does look like LinkedIn putting in something like the terms that you would normally put in supply chain or whatever it might be, operator operations. Put in some of the keywords to get the right person, but then add something like Latin American or whatever, black chamber of Commerce or something where they're a part of some group as well, and just keep changing that up. Like people of color in quotes or LGBTQ in quotes something. And I say in quotes because if you put multiple words together in quotes, then it keeps those words together and it doesn't.

34:45
Daniel Scharff
Are you talking about when you're searching.

34:46
Peggy Shell
For LinkedIn using the search bar in LinkedIn? Put in something that allows you to get people who are involved in communities that tells you that they are probably possibly more part of diverse groups.

34:59
Daniel Scharff
So if you're just a regular founder, you probably don't even know how to search for candidates in the early stages. You're probably just posting on your LinkedIn and your network, which for a lot of people are people who kind of look like you. Whatever that is, it'll get shared in that network. So yeah, often the post is not going to get its fingers creeping into other networks where you really do want to make that post accessible. So yeah, it sounds like intentionality may start with actually like, yeah, you need to get out there and start searching. You do.

35:27
Peggy Shell
That's also, by the way, another place where it makes sense to bring in a recruiter like mean and we can do all the cart work for smaller companies and just do some sourcing of candidates for you. But the intentionality is key. You're not going to get it from sourcing only in my opinion. I mean, sorry, from posting only. You need to then added some creativity. The other thing to do is to go to organizations like Project Potluck. Great group. That's a group that is an organization in the natural product industry for people of color, period. That's what they stand. And I don't know if they have a job board quite yet, but they definitely have like a community. So letting them know when you have jobs available.

36:01
Peggy Shell
Like I said, the Jedi collaborative, seeing if somebody is a part of that, there's others like naturally network has. I forgot what they're calling it right now. I'll come back to that. But there's another group called included also in the natural products industry. So figuring out people who are part of those organizations might lead to more diverse candidates as well. And then just putting the intentionality around networking ahead of time. I mean, part of recruiting is developing networks ahead of time so that you can lean on them when you need them, just like sales. So when you're at expo or when you're at natural or startup CPG events, put some intentionality around the way that you network too, knowing that down the road you may be hiring.

36:43
Peggy Shell
And if diversity is important to you, as it should be for all of us, to tell you the truth, it's going to have stronger organizations and it's going to make the world a better place. So put some effort around how you network there. Create an internship program where you go to the HBCUs and you invite them to be interns at your CPG brand. And by the way, think about your product and is your product going to the diverse consumer that it is going to be really wise for you to target now. And that's going to also help create a talent pool as well. Does that make sense?

37:13
Daniel Scharff
Yes, and that's super interesting. And I had not gotten those tips before, so I'm really glad I asked you about that. And I guess we'll also just on that note. So let's say you fortunately get a really great, diverse candidate and that's awesome. And then hopefully they come aboard and join you. What do you, as a founder, need to make sure that you then do to retain? Yeah, I'm glad diverse employees, but also just general employees in general.

37:39
Peggy Shell
Yeah, no, I'm super glad you asked that. Especially around diversity is maybe before you're doing the hiring at all is make sure you have an inclusive place of belonging that they're going to be joining in the first place. Because that's.

37:49
Daniel Scharff
How do you know if you have that or not? Because maybe you're working remotely and you're like, I don't know, everyone, just do your job. What are you not thinking?

37:57
Peggy Shell
Yeah, no, I love that it starts from the leader. So really the leader has the opportunity to set the tone for the company. And really, again, it comes from building trust. That's the foundation. And making a place where people feel belong, where they feel like I am with people that I can trust. I am in a place where I am seen as an individual. So it's a little soft, it's a little intangible, but I think a leader who puts intention behind that and how they lead. And it's not just about getting the work done. It's not just about numbers and metrics, but it's about the holistic experience for the individual. Creating time to connect. Like in our all team meetings, we do it once every other week. It's only an hour. It's such precious time together and there's so much to cover.

38:45
Peggy Shell
You would think that I would spend the entire hour on business stuff, but instead, every single time I make the first 15 minutes about connecting, we do gratitude circles, we do times where people can talk about what's on their mind, what's fun in their life, what their holidays looked like, et cetera. So create opportunities to connect. Create opportunities for people to feel heard right. So making sure that their voice matters. Like you actually act on the things that they suggest. You ask for their input, make sure that they feel like they're recognized as individuals. Like, we send things for anniversaries and for birthdays and for weddings. And if somebody is sick, then we'll send a soup package, things like that. I personally call each of my team members to just check in and say hi.

39:33
Peggy Shell
In fact, new people, when they start, they think they're getting fired or something. Like, why is she calling me? I'm like, no, I'm just staying at it. How's it going? So those things matter, and those create a sense of belonging.

39:42
Daniel Scharff
It's funny to think about it. I think one thing that I always try to remind myself to do is to just recognize when team members do something important that's great and throw the credit out there like, hey, this person did. That's awesome. Really try to lift them up. And I think, yeah, everybody likes that you want to feel good about your work. It's so important to all of us. And, yeah, I appreciate that also having been an employee as well. And I think my instinct is always just to try to share as much of the credit but take the blame. That was always my approach as a manager is like, if something's wrong, that is my problem. If they made an honest mistake and I didn't see it, that's my problem. But if they did something great, let the whole world know.

40:24
Daniel Scharff
And you know what's funny about that is I will always be that way because that's just who I am. And yeah, I want people to like working with me and have a good experience on the team. I believe it just doesn't take anything away from you to share the credit with your team. Ultimately, I think it should make people be like, oh, they're a good manager. Look what they get out of their tea. Look at these awesome people who want to work with them. But I did have one experience early in my career that was kind of wild because I joined this company and to build out a new division with them. And then I immediately went and filled the team and that was a cool thing for me to be able to do.

41:00
Daniel Scharff
Like, day one, I was like, I got this writing the job descriptions, going out, doing the recruiting plan because we had to build this function at the company and we hired three people, and if they're listening, they'll know what I'm talking about. But one of them, honestly, was just like one of the most talented people I had ever worked with before. And I was able to get, like, he reached out and he was interested to come and join the company, and that was awesome. He just such a remarkable talent. And I was newer to that company and kind of that industry also. And I was senior to him because I was going to be just in a senior role. And so over time.

41:36
Daniel Scharff
Then we had a new boss come in and I'm trying to negotiate my salary also because I don't know why they were just so stingy about giving raises there, which is true a lot of the time, like, get what you're going to get when you come in because it's hard to negotiate for raises over time.

41:50
Peggy Shell
We should talk about.

41:51
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, but then one of the things the manager would say to me is like, well, I don't know why I would pay you that much when we have this guy on our team who makes only this amount and he's like, great, I brought you that guy.

42:03
Peggy Shell
Part of my value, less money value.

42:06
Daniel Scharff
Is bringing people like that. And by the way, you're never going to find somebody else out there like that in the world. I just happened to be somebody that they were excited to work with that attracted them here. But that did bite me in the behind for sure on that one. Although it was not my true calling to stay there for sure.

42:21
Peggy Shell
Yeah, wrong company, wrong leadership. I mean, that's exactly it. So did you feel belonging? Did you feel like recognized, appreciated, all that stuff? No. Right. So I believe, too, if a leader sets the tone like that and really lives their values, they attract people who also do, and then it becomes this goodness internally that spreads back up.

42:41
Daniel Scharff
Also, I think even when you do recognition of people, also, it is really important to be very mindful about it because I also have worked at a company where I think they're like, oh, they were a little tight on cash, and I think the HR team came up with, well, let's just start recognizing people publicly in front of the whole company. And then they would do like one or two people a month, and I'm just sitting there like, well, where is mine? Like, I worked my butt off. I did this stuff that everyone epic and I didn't get recognized at all. Like, well, what's that about?

43:09
Peggy Shell
Right? Just be careful of that.

43:11
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. Hopefully everyone out there is not as petty and needing to be validated as I am.

43:16
Peggy Shell
But most are. Most are. It's really good to know. Yes. Really good to keep in mind.

43:23
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. So you got to get out there if you're going to do that. Make sure you're really.

43:27
Peggy Shell
I'm not a fan. Yeah, I'm not a fan of the employee of the month kind of thing because you end up with that. So I think it's real time, it's fluid, it's in your alt meetings. We have a Kudos slack channel. I mean, that kind of stuff where it's real time, and you just feel that little boost of dopamine more often than not.

43:44
Daniel Scharff
I love it.

43:45
Peggy Shell
Recognition is huge, and just not even.

43:47
Daniel Scharff
With your company, but even with suppliers that you worked with. I had a vendor that I worked with who I just loved so much. I knew the person that I worked with at the vendor had a big meeting with the president of their company, and I just texted them a little video of me talking like, hey, I just want to tell you what an absolute pleasure it is to work with this person. They are friggin genius. They have impacted our business so much and just thank you for having them and letting us work with them. And then she showed it to the president of the company and then he sent back a video also that was like, that's incredible. And, yeah, your business is awesome.

44:19
Daniel Scharff
And I loved hearing about this, and it just means so much to everybody, so it's going to cost you nothing. Yeah.

44:25
Peggy Shell
Just nailed it.

44:26
Daniel Scharff
10 seconds.

44:27
Peggy Shell
Yeah. By the way, I know we're talking about recruiting, but it's all intertwined. And as leaders, remember that stuff, it matters. Little things matter like that it took you very little time. And I know that's for a vendor, but by the way, that helps that the vendor, I mean, all of it is goodness. And we need to, and I think we are going to a place as a human race where we recognize the old school form of authoritative dictatorship. Leadership is just gone. It's done, at least in enlightened communities like ours, and it's not helpful. We need to go to where leaders are people. Leaders recognize that leading with empathy, leading from their heart, being vulnerable themselves. Those things matter to the culture.

45:13
Daniel Scharff
Oh, yeah. If you're hiring people these days, I don't know if you watch mad men or something like way back when, whatever. It's not like, okay, you graduate, you become the president of company. Everyone's just going to do what you say and not question it and whatever. No, it's very different now. People have similar identities wrapped up in work also, and want to work places that mean stuff to them. And I think also, gosh, conversely, I mean, probably I'm not alone in this either, but I can have some slight that is either real or imagined that happens at work. Maybe it's my manager, maybe it's. I don't know who else, and that will fester in my mind, and I'll just like. And I could be making the whole thing up in my mind also.

45:51
Daniel Scharff
And it can really just impact you so much and just completely disassociate you from the company over time.

45:57
Peggy Shell
Right, right. But if you had a boss or a place where, you know, hey, can I just ask you about this situation? Was this. And then the boss gets to say, oh, my God, I can't believe you took it that way. I'm sorry I said that way. No, that was not intended. Or you know what, Daniel? Like, I have been noticing, such as, I should have come to you sooner to talk with you about it, but yeah, I need you to pick it up or whatever. There's transparency. That's actually one of my personal core values and part of also back to the question of compensation. If you're transparent with your organization's finances, it just makes for a much less, like, why did I not get a raise? Or why are they so stingy here? Or whatever. Show it all. Just make it clear.

46:36
Peggy Shell
Where are you at as an organization? What's going to take you to the next level? What's your break even? What's your goal? Et cetera. And I just think, again, too few of leaders are comfortable doing that too.

46:47
Daniel Scharff
I like hearing that from you. And I think that's a theme in kind of how you approach business. All about transparency. I think especially with the model, the way you. Okay, so just a little bit more on the negotiation process. Getting back to like, okay, you have a candidate. You kind of know the range when you are negotiating with them. Do you have any kind of tips for how to do that in a way that hopefully gets a fair outcome but also doesn't ruin the relationship? Like, let's say they're asking for more. They're asking something you can't do and you don't think it should be any tactics that you would recommend.

47:19
Peggy Shell
I've already said this, but early communication around compensation is like, a million times proactively helpful if you can set a clear expectation at the beginning. If somebody comes back totally off from that, then shame on them. You were clear. They came back. Just were they just hoping you were like, and that happens, by the way. We have candidates that we lose, like, in the 11th hour because they're like, well, I asked for this in the negotiation. You're like, wait, but we made it clear it was over here. Right, but make it clear early. If they come back with something reasonable, I say try to meet them. If it's equitable within your organization, I mean, you factor in an extra 1015, $20,000 over a year. And I know that's money. It's real money.

47:59
Peggy Shell
But if it makes a difference to their happiness, and how they're going to show up. And you can even say, hey, I'm really stretching for you here. And here's what the expectations are. I'm going to be really clear and that kind of thing.

48:10
Daniel Scharff
And you mentioned before about having bands. So like, okay, here's what a manager can make at our company. Here's what a director can make at a company. A vp. And at least that also gives you, like, this is factual. This is what we're able to do in that band. And it's kind of weird to do that if you're very small. But at least then it's not like the worst situation to be in is like one person's like, I just want more. You're like, well, I don't want to just give you more. And then it's not based around any kind of metric.

48:32
Peggy Shell
Right, exactly. Setting clear bands, stating early what the comp is, making sure you're in alignment with an actual question, is this going to work for you? And then if they come back with something reasonable, try to meet them so they feel heard, or give them a little bit. They're probably coming in specifically high, so then you could come down below that, right? That's human nature. Or let them know what they can do to get to that place. Or let them know that you're just not going to be there. And here's why. You already figured out what the plan is for the funding, and we're just not going to have an extra $20,000 this year. But if you help us get to the next level, you'll get there. Or adjust it with equity, potentially, if equity is a part of the equation.

49:08
Daniel Scharff
And speaking of equity, do you think that all early CPG founders need to be offering up equity? That it's the right thing to do?

49:17
Peggy Shell
No, I think it depends.

49:18
Daniel Scharff
Maybe not to.

49:19
Peggy Shell
I think it depends on your goal. If your goal is to exit and you want to exit in the next five to ten years or something, or you're really trying to grow quickly and scale. Yes, because then you're aligned. Then you have a team that actually is aligned with your goals. If you're trying to build just a great business, lifestyle business, or maybe someday you'll sell, but that's not necessarily on the table. Now. I actually think equity is confusing, and I think you're better off just paying that market or above and recognizing that over time, you could always add equity into the mix. A lot of people. I mean, how many businesses do you know that have really had huge exits? I mean, there are some, but it's a small percentage of the number of startups and CPT brands out there.

49:56
Peggy Shell
And not to discourage those founders, but the fact of the matter is people and employees are kind of devaluing equity a little more than they used to.

50:05
Daniel Scharff
Okay, so let me ask you another question. Let's say you find someone you like. What do you think about getting references and even backdoor references, which is what a lot of people do, they'll be like, oh, actually, I know someone who.

50:16
Peggy Shell
Was at that company. Yeah, you got to be careful with those for sure, especially if they're currently at that company. That's just morally, you got to respect that. This person's probably looking anonymously or not openly yet. So I think with backdoor references, I'm a bigger fan of asking the person, hey, I know Joe at such and such company where you had worked, I would love to talk to Joe. Would you be okay with that? And then you'll know if they're like, ooh, don't call Joe. Then you're kind of like, wow, there's something there. But then if they're like, yeah, oh my God, I love know, then you kind of have an extra affirmation. My personal opinion about backdoor references, I totally get them. But I think there's a respect and a moral piece of it too, that you can play that by being transparent.

50:58
Daniel Scharff
I like that point that you just made. And honestly, I don't know, it seems so simple and obvious, yet I've never thought about heard anyone suggest that. Like, yeah, ask them, hey, can I check with this person? Is that okay? Like, I'm interested in you as a.

51:10
Peggy Shell
So yeah, I know you only gave me Sally, sue and John, but I happen to know Joe. I'm going to call him if you're good with that. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing anything that was, and they may make up some bullshit, in which case then you're like, you get to decide whether or not that's accurate or not. Oh no, Joe. Oh, didn't know. Know. Whatever. I don't. Yeah, but at least you've stated your intention. You don't even have to ask permission, by the way. You can just state that you're going to, but if they're at that current company, just be respectful of, they may be like, oh, not yet. You can't call them yet. I haven't.

51:41
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, for sure. And I didn't have that in mind, by the way.

51:44
Peggy Shell
References themselves are awesome. I'm a huge fan. I know, a lot of people say, well, they've given those names. Of course those people are going to love them. I always flip a reference on its head, and very first thing I say is, I know that you're a fan of Daniel. You're here representing Daniel. You don't care about me and my company, so you want to make sure this is a great fit for Daniel. So I really want to have an honest conversation to make sure that we have a fit for Daniel. Okay.

52:09
Daniel Scharff
I love that. That's so good, then.

52:11
Peggy Shell
Now you've started from a place of them thinking about, I'm not just trying to get Daniel this job, but I'm trying to really be honest about whether we've got a fit here. So you can ask questions, then get at that.

52:21
Daniel Scharff
That's an incredible framing of it. I love it. Any other interview tips or things that you see people really getting wrong? We talked about the behavioral questions and having a consistent grid. Anything you see people doing where you're like, no, don't do that, don't ask that, or don't do it this way.

52:37
Peggy Shell
Definitely look up your legal questions. First of all, you can find those anywhere. I can share those with the network, but just make sure you're not asking questions. The biggest rule of thumb is ask questions that are relevant to them getting the job done right. So you can't ask where they're from or what their siblings do. They have kids, that kind of stuff. Don't ask that. But beyond the obvious things, a lot of people think, like, would I enjoy having a beer with this person? Okay, maybe that's important, but it may not be right. And then you end up with this homogeneous group instead of a diverse group. So I think, more importantly is what are they going to contribute to the culture versus do they look like me? Am I comfortable with them?

53:14
Peggy Shell
I think trying to take out the social thought that almost everybody I ever talk to is like, well, I would love to hang out with them. Okay, well, by the way, if you're going to be traveling with this person all the time because they're your right hand person or you're in the same group that travels, that actually is important. But if it's like a remote company where you're going to be connecting on Zoom once in a while, it actually doesn't matter. So I think that's important. I think having a mix of who they meet with in the process and having it clear what each person's role is when they talk with them, so that everybody's not asking them the same questions. And not everybody is vetting for culture, but somebody's vetting for the actual hard skills.

53:49
Peggy Shell
Somebody's vetting more for the culture skills, somebody's vetting for the values. I don't know, but having a mix and having. I love one of the last phases of the interview process, being with other team members. And you set it up as this is an opportunity for you to ask questions of what it's like to work here, which is also why you have to have a great culture. You have to trust that the people who are there are actually going to say some great things. If you find yourself hesitant to do that last stage, you know that you've got some things you need to fix. Truly.

54:17
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. I love a couple of things. You said one about also finding culture ads, not people who just fit with your culture, but will add to your culture and help you grow it and evolve it. If someone, maybe it's not the person who's going to manage the team member that you're bringing on, but are going to work with them a lot, they're going to feel a lot better if they're in on that process somehow and get a chance to meet the person or you just otherwise. Yeah, I mean, I definitely would feel that way. Like, oh, I guess, okay, you didn't even ask me. Now I'm just working with this person. I feel like I have value. I could have given you a good perspective.

54:48
Peggy Shell
And to that end, I think especially with companies that were clients of ours, sometimes they want to hand up all of the process. Candidates want to actually hear from the hiring manager directly about things, especially if they're not a fit. Like if they've spent time on it. Hiring managers should call that person, especially in consumer products category, call that person directly and say, hey, I really appreciated your time. We decided to go with somebody else, or we decided your experience wasn't deep enough here, whatever it is. But I appreciated your time. And that person is probably going to refer somebody else to you or they're going to still eat your cereal or whatever your brand is.

55:23
Peggy Shell
But if you leave it to a recruiter or the HR person or you otherwise just send them an email or something, like you didn't honor the time that they spent there and they're probably going to be anti fan of your organization, right.

55:36
Daniel Scharff
And I mean, at least let people know they're just left hanging, they're going to hate you. And people can usually handle the rejection if you give it to them. And with most dignity.

55:46
Peggy Shell
Exactly.

55:47
Daniel Scharff
And graciousness. That's right. Honestly, only a couple of times have I really gotten some nasty. Like, you wouldn't know a good.

55:56
Peggy Shell
And you're like, oh, my God, I'm so glad that I didn't pursue.

55:59
Daniel Scharff
At least they get it out at you instead of just like then going on an Internet rampage. Okay, so that's super helpful. What about a scenario where, okay, you found someone if you're an early founder? Honestly, it's even hard to know exactly what are the things you really need. Like, if you're hiring a salesperson and you're early on, a lot of people are going to seem very impressive to you, and you may not know for a while into working with them. Like, okay, this actually wasn't the right, they did not have actually the skill set that I needed. Maybe because I didn't know that was.

56:29
Peggy Shell
You just said it. Yes, exactly.

56:31
Daniel Scharff
So what do you do? Let's say you're like, three months in and you're like, probably inertia and cognitive dissonance will prevent you from knowing that as a founder with this person who maybe is not working out. But do you think people should be evaluating that after just a few months or after a year? What do you do if that does happen?

56:48
Peggy Shell
Yeah, a few thoughts there. First of all, salespeople are easy to get sold, so it may or may not be the right fit. But if they're a salesperson, they may sell you. So that's where behavioral based interviewing is super important, where you really get it. What have you actually done that's similar? But I think backing it up, like you said, is try to get really clear on what success looks like from this person. What are the results that you want to attain from this person so that you can then vet for that in the interview process and talk to others in the industry to understand what has and hasn't worked for them. So that's one. Like, how much is this digital marketing? How much is this actual hunting? How much do they need a rolodex of contacts or not like that kind of stuff.

57:27
Peggy Shell
But if you get to a place where you mishired, you're like, oh, no. Or maybe mishired. First of all, I do think it takes time. I have had countless employees where I at first was like, and then they turned out to be awesome. So I am not a believer of the big statement. Everyone says, hire slow, fire fast. Maybe I'm just too empathetic. I give people chances. Maybe I give them too much of a chance. But I've had so many times where I'm like, thank God I didn't part ways with that person. I've also had times where my gut told me from the start think I'm mishired and then I hang on too long. So both are true at the same time. In that case, in any of the cases, I think it comes down to expectation, setting and accountability.

58:09
Peggy Shell
So if you're clear on what's expected this person, and you put accountability metrics in place, then it's quantitative more. It's not just a feel thing, especially for finance and sales. And I mean, some roles where it is pretty quantitative whether or not they're doing their job. I think not flexing on that now. You got to be realistic. If you're setting some quota, that is just not realistic for anybody. But if you have examples of where it's worked out perfectly, great.

58:36
Daniel Scharff
So anyway, yeah, I like hearing you say that and just kind of reflecting on all the people I've worked with throughout my career. I do also tend to want to stick with people more if it's an option and just being loyal to people who are loyal to you. And I think I never want to let someone go who is just doing the stuff that I would ask them to do and giving it their all and passionate about our mission. If you have those things, that is the hardest thing to find.

59:00
Peggy Shell
That's right. And by the way, the other thing then is if you're getting somebody who's not, it's just not working. There's probably something that's not working for them, too. So you get to have those honest conversations and say like something's not working. I just feel it. Do you? And what's going on? Is this the wrong role for you? Am I not clear enough? Am I not available enough? Am I too hard? Whatever and see if you can get there together.

59:21
Daniel Scharff
I also find if you perceive something like that, they perceive it too. Put it on the table and talk about it.

59:27
Peggy Shell
You got that right. Yes. I think you just forget that I've been running my own business for 14 years now, and I've been in recruiting for 25. I don't even know. But people forget to be. We're all humans. CEOs are human. The people are working for you. We're all just trying to do our best. So have tough conversations in an empathetic way, and you're probably going to learn a lot and everybody's going to love each other more. Right?

59:54
Daniel Scharff
I like that. It's so funny. Also, when you have an issue. And then if you go to your family or friend or whatever and talk about it, the first thing they're going to be like, well, did you try.

01:00:02
Peggy Shell
Talking to me about it?

01:00:04
Daniel Scharff
Oh, I can't believe I didn't think about that.

01:00:06
Peggy Shell
Totally. Yes. And I'll just give a tip of whenever I have a hard conversation that I have to have with a person or with a client that's unhappy or something, I just step back and, like, take a deep breath and how would I want to be talked with right now if I was on the other side? If I was this person, how would I want Peggy to come talk with me? And then I try to settle into that, and usually then it's much less of a contentious conversation, and it's more of a, how can we find common ground and how can I own my stuff? I actually back to the big leap. I don't know. Again, I don't know if you've listened to it. I'm, like, totally in right now because I just finished it.

01:00:39
Peggy Shell
But he talks about arguments between two people, two countries, two whatever. Anything is about this misconception that it's 100% blame that has to get divided between the two parties. Instead, it's 200%, and each party holds 100% always, no matter what. Even if one is worse than another, the 100%. But if you have a problem with an employee on your team, if you have a crazy conversation with a candidate in the negotiation process, you're probably 100% to blame, and they are, too. Right. So own your stuff of what you can own and change and adjust and recognize, like, what can I be doing differently here? And you're probably going to see some beauty.

01:01:19
Daniel Scharff
Yes. There's no situation in life where I've been blameless.

01:01:22
Peggy Shell
Yeah. Zero situations, truly. I mean, unless the bird at least a little bit. Yeah.

01:01:28
Daniel Scharff
So last question that I really wanted to ask you. I think sometimes founders struggle between, like, hey, I need to go out and get somebody who's done this before and is really experienced, and they're obviously going to be more expensive, versus, hey, I think what we could do is go and get some people who don't have a lot of experience, but they are full of that new to my career kind of energy. They're going to work their butt off. They want, they're ambitious and they'll just crush it. And I can kind of mold them into whatever because they don't have all this stuff. Obviously, there are, like, pros and cons of each of those approaches, but what do you see, having filled a lot of teams.

01:02:01
Peggy Shell
Yeah. Very easy. Two rules of thumb here. One, I'll use the example of creative alignment. So if I am looking for a recruiter, not a senior recruiter, but a recruiter who I know I could teach them recruiting. That's easy enough thing to train on. It's clear enough, it's specific enough. What I cannot teach are the softer skills, the people vetting, the communication, the relationship building, that kind of stuff. I can't teach that really? People have that or they don't to a certain extent. You can give them tips. So I vet for soft skills. I care very little about whether they've done recruiting because I know I can teach that and I know that we've got the process in place to be able to have them slot in pretty quickly and we've seen them successfully get up to speed within a short amount of time.

01:02:44
Peggy Shell
So I think rule number one is think about what you can and cannot teach. There's some things you cannot teach and there's some things you can. Number two is how much does industry actually matter? Industry experience. So if it's about a certain set of buyers that you don't have access to yourself, and this is sales, can you find a way to help this person get in and then the softer skills of how good they are at relationship building and selling matters, or do you need, like you just have tried hard to get in wherever and you need somebody who knows the ins and outs there. So I think industry and. Or have they done this job exactly matters. Sometimes it does.

01:03:22
Peggy Shell
I mean, I think an accountant in the CPG space, I mean, if somebody doesn't know cost accounting or they don't know, there's certain things that are like, they're pretty important. Could you teach that? Could they learn that? Maybe. But it's going to be a hell of a lot easier if they have some of that knowledge that already. So break it down. But it wouldn't let compensation drive the decision necessarily. I think that happens too much. Meaning like I could just get somebody less expensive. If I get somebody less seasoned and I can train them, that's maybe real to your budget. But I would have it be more around the age and stage and experience actually doesn't matter. It's about the soft skill, regardless of that, and whoever has the most of that, if that makes sense. Yeah.

01:04:00
Daniel Scharff
Okay. That's a great answer. Thank you.

01:04:02
Peggy Shell
I would not avoid more experienced people who are making a career shift. They are going to be super energized. So what a lot of our clients want is a lateral move. I want somebody who's done exactly this for this type of company and comes to me and it's like, well, why would they move to you? Maybe you got a little better benefit. Maybe you have a product that matches their purpose more. Okay. They're probably not going to be that exciting. So give people these exciting shifts. Either it's a boost in responsibility or resume building, or it's a lateral shift from a different industry that they're in their pub to be in. Natural products or different category, whatever. Something that you can tell fuels their soul.

01:04:41
Daniel Scharff
Perfect soul fueling. I think that's a good note for us to propel our way to the end of the podcast. So, Peggy, any good way for people to kind of follow along and to reach out to you guys?

01:04:53
Peggy Shell
Yeah, sure. Yeah. So we have a website, creativealignments.com, and you can see we have under expertise. You can see all of the work that we've done in the natural products industry and the metrics and client logos and all that good stuff. You're welcome to reach out to me, [e-mail]. Or Frank Milianti. He's one of my business partners and our managing director of our consumer products practice. So, [e-mail]. Or go to the website and submit a form saying you want to talk with us? And we would love to set up a time.

01:05:24
Daniel Scharff
Okay, cool. If you do that, make sure you mention startup CPNG. Thank you guys so much for being our partners. We are very aligned with you guys.

01:05:32
Peggy Shell
Very aligned.

01:05:33
Daniel Scharff
You guys trying to great for us to partner together and try to give brands a better way to fill their teams and have the impact that they want to. So thank you again for your support of the community and for this very great podcast.

01:05:44
Peggy Shell
Yeah, it was super fun.

01:05:45
Daniel Scharff
I love this. This is great. It's so much fun to talk to you about this. All right, well, I will see you guys all on the slack. Thanks for listening.

01:05:53
Peggy Shell
Thank you, everybody.

01:05:55
Daniel Scharff
All right, everybody, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed the podcast today, it would really help us out if you can leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I am Daniel Sharf. I'm the host and founder of startup CPG. Please feel free to reach out or add me on LinkedIn. If you're a potential sponsor that would like to appear on the podcast, please email [e-mail]. And reminder to all of you out there, we would love to have you join the community. You can sign up at our website, startupcpg.com to learn about our webinars, events and slack channel. If you enjoyed today's music, you can check out my band it's the super fantastics on Spotify music. On behalf of the entire startup CPG team, thank you so much for listening and your support. See you next time you our channel.