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Welcome to the home of Grand Canyon hiking. The Grand Canyon Hiker Dude Show helps hikers plan, train for, and better understand hikes below the rim, from short day hikes to Rim-to-Rim, Rim-to-River, Phantom Ranch, Bright Angel Trail, South Kaibab Trail, North Kaibab Trail, backpacking trips, heat safety, water planning, shuttle logistics, and more.
Host Brian Speciale shares Grand Canyon stories, trail-tested advice, safety lessons, interviews, and community wisdom from first-timers, seasoned hikers, rangers, Canyon insiders, and everyday people who have learned powerful lessons below the rim.
Whether you are planning Rim-to-Rim, dreaming of Phantom Ranch, preparing for your first Grand Canyon hike, or looking for honest stories of triumph, tragedy, mistakes, and trail-won wisdom, this podcast will help you hike your best hike.
Listeners call the show “an invaluable resource,” “the perfect mix of inspiration, realistic caution, and tips for success,” and “a welcoming place and wealth of information.”
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And I get up and I start powering through. I went like a mile the wrong way and talk about like something that just deflates you. You're hobbling out of the canyon. You're, you know, you're struggling.
Zeens:You're listening to the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude Show. The voice of Grand Canyon Hiking, presented by Hiken. Hiking packs and gear built to help you hike your best hike. Here's your guide, Brian Special.
Brian:Well, I can't get enough of the inspirational stories and the people behind them that we have on this show, and we've got another one this time that I've to admit I never saw coming. A couple of years ago on my almost daily hikes up Black Mountain here in Cave Creek, Arizona, I started seeing a new face show up. And then I saw that new face become a familiar face as Steve Martin became a bonafide Black Mountain regular. At first, now I would pass Steve on the way up the mountain, but it didn't take long before he worked himself into shape to the point that he was no longer catchable. And it wasn't long after that that he was a guy you did not want to see coming up behind you because you knew you would have to work hard if you wanted to stay out in front.
Brian:Yes, there are unspoken egos working on Black Mountain every single day, and probably every mountain in America for that matter. You know, it's always cool to see progressions like that though, and feel someone's confidence grow, whether it be as they progress from rim to river, to rim to rim in the Grand Canyon, or rim to rim to a double crossing, or just on your local mountain or trail. It is inspiring, and you know there is a story behind it. Now as you might imagine, as we got to know Steve, coach Arne and I would inevitably get the canyon on his mind. We never stopped talking about it after all.
Brian:And now, Steve has done some things below the rim and on some other iconic day hikes away from the canyon that I have a hard time wrapping my head around. You are gonna love this one. The motivational and inspirational Steve Martin. And when you have a famous name like that, you know that I'm gonna ask you about it. This was recorded on the Black Mountain Summit on the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude show powered by Hiken.
Steve:You know, the funny thing is I'm actually named after my dad. And so, when I started telling people that, that actually opened their eyes quite a bit because then you're talking about that age range of the actual Steve Martin. So Yeah. We go on vacations down to, like, The Bahamas and places where, you know, people knew the name but didn't really know the face, and my dad would always play it off. And, yeah, I'll give you my autograph and all that type of stuff.
Steve:So, yeah, it's been an interesting name. It's been great and definitely got some attention more back in the day.
Brian:Yeah. So where did all this, this crazy hiking stuff start for you? Because I remember, it's probably been three or four years now, when you first started, I think, coming here to Black Mountain. And I've kinda watched your progression just over the years, and now you are just an absolute beast. When did
Steve:it start for you and and kinda why? Yeah. Look. You know, Black Mountain started for me, I think it was, you know, around February, maybe '24. I started doing it, a little bit more.
Steve:So
Brian:Only two and a half years.
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. Two and a half years, but pretty pretty routine. You know? But it started out as a training thing for me and really, I'm I'm a big hunter.
Steve:Right? And so I got invited to a trip over to New Zealand, which is the Southern Alps, and we wanted to go after Himalayan tar, which is kinda like their mountain goat or sheep. So a lot of people take helicopters up, and we wanted to do it on foot, me and my buddies. So I started training for that, and I found Black Mountain, which is kind of in my backyard, convenient
Brian:Yeah.
Steve:And started doing that. But then it then it evolved. Right? I mean, that's when I first started seeing you guys up here. And then I really just started kinda training for life.
Steve:Right? You start getting into it, and you wanna continue to do these things and these adventures as we get older. And so I just kinda stuck with it.
Brian:You're 47 now, so you would have been, you know, 44, 45 when when you started. Is it something that just kinda came out of nowhere and it was inspired by that, that that hunt?
Steve:Yeah. I mean, look. I've always loved the outdoors, and that's kind of the hunting aspect. Right? People that don't hunt probably don't realize that a lot of it is you're just out in the wild.
Steve:Right? You're just not on a trail.
Brian:You don't think of it as being physical.
Steve:Correct. And it is. It's immensely physical. Right? And so you're carrying a lot more gear, and you're going off trail.
Steve:I mean, you're making your own trail. You're looking at maps, and you're navigating, and, you know, you're always trying to see what's over the next mountain ridge. And so it's that kinda you know, I've always had that that drive for the exploration and the adventure and the outdoors. I just never really got into the actual hiking aspect. I don't know how I missed that.
Steve:Maybe just because I was busy with the other aspects, but this was kind of the first, introduction to it. Was I mean, really, was you and coach Arnie, quite frankly. I mean, coming up here routinely, started seeing you guys and then, you know, talking more and more and you guys talking about the canyon and, you know, bringing that up. And I had, you know, my buddy Andy that I trained with up here. He was actually training, to do an r three.
Brian:Yeah. That's right. At that time.
Steve:Yep. Yep. And so I remember coming down. I was only doing singles up here, which is still, you know, a challenge. Right?
Steve:And he's like he was turning around to go do another. And I'm like, what are you doing? And he's like, oh, I'm training for the r three. I'm gonna do three of these today or whatever it was. Right?
Steve:And I was like
Brian:Kinda mind blowing. Right? Yeah.
Steve:But I was like, okay. I'll do another. Like, it's just one of those things you never thought to do. And, you know, you start surrounding yourself with people that are, you know, better than you and doing more, and it kinda opens your eyes to, I never thought about that. Right?
Brian:And that sounds kinda cool.
Steve:It does. It sounds sounds great. Right? And you're up for a challenge in doing hard things.
Brian:Yeah. And that's one of those things that even with me, with coach Arnie when I met him up here, and he had that shirt on that said, rim to rim to rim. When we started, it was dark. When we finished, it was dark. And it's one of those things that just kinda sounds like, wow.
Brian:That sounds like a long, hard day. It sounds miserable. Now I kinda wanna hear more about it and maybe do it. And it seems like you buy right into to that kind of thinking.
Steve:Absolutely. Yeah. It's kinda crazy. I mean, look. I'd never had a desire to do anything crazy like that.
Steve:Right? I mean, you know, historically, it's like, who wants to hike 45 miles? It's like, no. That doesn't really sound great. Right?
Steve:It's not not at the top of my list. But then you start getting into it and understanding it more and, you know, facing those challenges and challenging yourself is really what it comes down to.
Brian:And you get in better shape. And so you start to see things more things become possible.
Steve:Yes. And so getting in better shape. You're absolutely right. And, look, that's that's kind of a big driver for me. I'm fortunate.
Steve:You know, my mom and and, my stepdad, Larry, he's he's 79 now, and she's 70, and they travel the world. I mean, they they have stayed in great shape and they do stuff nonstop. I mean, he's one of my good, you know, hunting partners. Right? So, you know, we'll go on backpack, you know, trips and on horseback up in Wyoming and, you know, he's 76 at that time and and just doing all this stuff and it's like, I've I've always admired that with him, but I've also seen that he puts in the work.
Steve:And so when they come to visit, he's up doing crunches in the morning and he's doing stretches and, like, it takes work, you know, to stay fit like that.
Brian:It takes mental fortitude.
Steve:It it you're absolutely right. I mean, the mental aspect is tremendous.
Brian:How inspiring. And so you were just totally inspired by that, by Larry.
Steve:Yeah. For sure. For sure. No doubt. It's like, wanna live that life.
Steve:Right? And you see a lot of other people, you know, in their fifties even that just kinda give up on that aspect. Right? And it's like, no. There's a lot of life left to live and a lot to do, and you can do it.
Steve:Right? I mean, even
Brian:if you wanna start now in your fifties, sixties Yeah. Seventies, there's no reason why you couldn't. Like, if you were going in the in the wrong direction and you're trending toward not being a Larry, it's not too late to become a Larry. Right?
Steve:For sure. I mean, look, I was 45 when I started this. I've always been in decent shape, and, you know, I've lifted weights and things, but I wasn't in, like, a great physical fitness shape. Right? And and fit for life, so to speak.
Steve:Right? And I remember you guys even asking me kinda in the beginning. It's like, what are you training for? Because you see somebody up here every day. It's like, what are you training for?
Brian:Yeah. When somebody's doing more than multiples like you were doing.
Steve:It's like, what do you and it's like, my answer is Life, and it really was. Right?
Brian:It's a great answer. And then
Steve:it leads to other things, of course.
Brian:Yeah. As we've seen with you to the, to the nth degree, it's funny because I remember I remember very vividly, honestly, when when you first started coming up here, and I think you'd you'd call me, smoke because you thought I was fast. And now you're up here just kicking my butt all over the place. How much confidence does that give you when you reach a point where you pick a I don't know. You pick someone or something that you didn't think that you would get to and then you surpass it.
Brian:I mean, that's gotta give you incredible confidence and make you think that, I mean, anything's possible.
Steve:Yeah. You're right. It does. I mean, and and that's kind of the the reward to it. Right?
Steve:But you always gotta stay humble too. Right? I mean, and there and there's always people that are better. Oh, always. I mean, and but that's the good thing.
Steve:Right? And you surround yourself with those people and, you know, it drives you to get better. Right? So, I mean, you and Arnie and Eric and all the guys up here that, you know, just kill it. It it helps.
Brian:So how did you in get inspired to do rim to rim to rim? Because my god. And this this speaks to to who Steve is. He'll just go do something. Like, it's one of those things where he's building towards something, and then you see him the next time, he's like, I just went and did it.
Brian:And I think that was like that when you did your first rim to rim to rim. What inspired you to do it? What made you think you could do it? And how much Canyon experience did you have before you did it? Because this was not very long after you really started to get into this stuff and take it seriously.
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. That's that's true. I guess it's kind of the what not to do. Right?
Brian:We like those stories, Stevie.
Steve:But yeah. So, I mean, look, I was training up here, and you guys have been talking about it. And Andy, who I mentioned before, was training for it, and I think he was gonna do it in May. And and, you know, the North Room was still closed at this point. I think it was April maybe.
Steve:And you'd been telling me, you know, hey, just go do a rim to river. You haven't been to the canyon. So I'd never been to the canyon before. I mean, I've been to the, you know, the rim and looked down and brought the kids when they're young and all that, but never been below. Right?
Steve:And so you guys kept talking about it, and people were training for it. And, know, I'd been up here quite a bit. I think at that point, I'd worked myself up to maybe seven seven laps on Black Creek.
Brian:Good lord.
Steve:So, you know, I was I was comfortable with my physical fitness Yeah. That I could do it going down to the river. Right? And so I think it was a last minute thing and, you know, my son had a scouting event or something, so I dropped him off on a Friday night and he wasn't gonna be back for, you know, till Sunday. So I just decided, hey.
Steve:Look. Tomorrow's gonna be a little cooler. Get up early, drive up to the canyon, go do a rim of river, check it out, and kinda come back out. So that was the plan. Had, you know, I've had a lot of experience in the wilderness, and I I stay totally calm in that environment, and I'm good on my own.
Steve:So I went up and got on the bus and, you know, went over. I think I parked at Bright Angel and took the took the bus over to the South Kaibab Trailhead. And on the bus, there was a gentleman that was a little older in great shape, but he was talking about how he just did an r three the night before. And so I'm like, really? And, you know, he was talking about he did it in like fifteen hours or something, and I'm like thinking to myself, well, hey.
Brian:Oh, no.
Steve:That just kind of put it in my head like, you know, well, maybe I just think about going a little further. Now, still hadn't committed in my mind, but I'm that's what kind of planted the seed.
Brian:I'm like It was in the back of your mind. Oh, no.
Steve:Yeah. It started it. Right? And so, you know, anyway, get down there and it's just amazing, the canyon. And you you guys explained it like that and it's so true.
Steve:Just it's it's inspiring and it's it sucks you in, right, once you start going down and you just see it and it's beautiful and you just, you know, I I was doing good. I felt good.
Brian:I got to the What time of year was this?
Steve:This was I think it was the very end of March or
Brian:the Okay. So the weather was still there was no heat to worry about. Nothing like that.
Steve:No. I mean, but but I was aware of the heat. Right? Because that's one of the things you guys talk about a lot and it's true. It's dangerous.
Steve:Right? And so this day in particular was a little cooler and so that was another aspect of it. I got the Phantom and I'm like, hey, you know, it's still cool and, like, let's just keep going a little bit. And I'm like, alright, let's go a little further. Right?
Brian:And then Yeah. One of those things.
Steve:Yeah. One of those. But then, you know, the further I got, the more I had it in my mind. I'm like, okay, you know, let's just do this thing. Oh, no.
Steve:Let's let's just do it. I had enough food, you know, water obviously, feeling good. But it was a commitment too, right? Because the North Rim was closed, so you couldn't bail out anyway, right? Mean, it's like once you're in, you're in.
Brian:So you get to Phantom, and you're still feeling good. So you survive the downhill because the downhill, beats the heck out of me, often. And I don't know if you had poles. You'd never hiked done Canyon Hiking before where it was down first and then up second, but you still were feeling good. So you had gotten yourself sucked in, and you thought, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna keep going and see how far I could go.
Brian:But were you in the back of your mind even at that point as you left Phantom and you started were started to go into the box, were you thinking, like, I'm just gonna go for this, or I'm just gonna see how far I'm gonna make it?
Steve:You know, look. The the the the gentleman on the bus put it in my mind. Right? And so I had it there. It was one of those, I'm gonna see how far I can I'm gonna go a ways and see how I feel.
Steve:Right? And and I was still feeling good, and so I just decided to go for it. And then once you get to that certain point, it's like all or nothing. Right? I mean, I'm either gonna turn around here or I'm gonna keep going, and you make that decision.
Steve:And and I was I was in it at that point. So and and I did I did good. Like, I mean, hey. I you know, the one thing that started happening, that I wasn't prepared for was foot issues. And so, you know, I started getting some hot spots and and blisters and things, and I I took care of them, but not as quick as I should've.
Steve:And I played a little too much of the mental toughness game because a lot of things are mental that you need to push through, but there's some physical aspects that you absolutely need to take care of. Right? And so I I still pushed through that, and I was good. I mean, look. I made it to the North Rim, I think, in nine hours, and that was taking, you know, breaks and lunch and things and whatever.
Steve:And I'm like, okay. This is this is good. If I can make it back in nine, you know, I'm I'm alright. But, you know, as soon as I started down, from the North Rim, I had this crazy pain in, like, my my hip. It was weird.
Steve:Like, I'd never felt it before. And, you know, come to find out after the fact, you know, it's that IT band. And what I think happened was, you know, I had the blister issue that I was powering through, but I think my gate was off just enough that it started impacting that IT band.
Brian:Started compensating.
Steve:Oh, man. And, like, that's something I never felt before. Right? Like, never. Didn't even know existed.
Steve:Right? So I I literally, like, hobbled down and out of that canyon. Right? I mean and it was it was brutal. I mean, I'm not gonna lie.
Steve:It was it was a challenge. Right? I mean
Brian:And what time is this now? This is you're over there nine hours. March, the days aren't crazy long. So was it dark yet?
Steve:Oh, yeah. It was dark. It was getting dark at, the the North Rim, and I ate a sandwich up there.
Brian:So you made it all the way across in daylight? Yeah. And then you were starting down in the dark?
Steve:Yeah. So it was beautiful trip, the whole thing in daylight. Right? Then starting down in the dark. Yeah.
Brian:Yeah. So you knew you were gonna have to hike through the night. Was that something you were prepared for?
Steve:Yeah. So I had battery backups and, you know, I had headlamps and, look, quite frankly, the other mistake I probably had was carrying close to 30 pounds. Right? And that that comes from, you know, that that's the hunter and me and the prepared and have all the stuff. I mean, I wasn't worried about being out there.
Steve:That was, you know, at least of my worries. Right? So but that extra weight and just not really thinking that through, definitely took a toll too.
Brian:And so okay. So you start down the North Rim and it sounds like almost you get the feeling of like, uh-oh, I'm not I'm not feeling right.
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, you know, I'm just hobbling really and
Brian:You had a long way to go.
Steve:A long way to go. Long way to go.
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Steve:But I wasn't panicked. It was like, okay. Well, let's just we're gonna keep rolling. And, you know, I'd stopped to rest and, you know, probably a good thing was it was cold. So, you know, it couldn't stop very long because you're gonna start getting really cold.
Steve:So it kept me moving and and just kind of powered through it. Right? I mean, it was a mental thing. It was a physical kind of limitation, but it just kept moving. And I never had never never panicked at all.
Steve:The only the only part that was a little concerning to me is like, hey, am I gonna make it back in time to pick up my son when he gets back from scouts? Right? Like, this turned into a little longer than than I expected. But other than that, I really wasn't too worried.
Brian:How was it hiking in the in the dark? I would imagine your first time on those trails that I mean, the trails are easy to follow for the most part, but it wouldn't be crazy difficult to take a a wrong turn, in the dark. I mean, was there even anyone else out there since, I mean, the North Rim was was closed? Did you pass anyone and or did you just feel like you're out there by yourself?
Steve:Yeah. It's it's funny, like, you know, I I like, going in past people, you know, every hour or whatever it is. Right? You had people running the trails and all that. And, you know, I think it was around 05:00PM that I passed a ranger that was coming down from the North Rim, and he was kinda questioning me.
Steve:I think probably making sure I was alright and all that and nice guy and, but that's the last person I saw until, like, 6AM the next morning. Yeah. So there is nobody on the trail at all, after that. And so I I wasn't worried about, you know, getting lost, and I'm not worried about the dark. I mean, look, at night by yourself in the wilderness, things can get a little weird, but, again, kind of my background with the hunting and experience out there, that wasn't a wasn't a factor.
Steve:But I will say, you know, look, after twenty hours or whatever it is on the trail and pushing your body and, you you know, your mind, I I got to Phantom and I sat down on a bench, and I remember this distinctly, there was, like, some thorns or or or stickers or something and it hit my back, so I was gonna lay down for a second. And there was another bench directly across from it, so I just jumped up quick and laid on that one. Well, again, it gets cold, so you kind of jump up and I'm like, alright, I'm not a fan. I was like, I'm gonna power through this. Let's go energy.
Brian:So you rested for a few minutes or what?
Steve:Yeah. A few minutes. Not long, you know, probably five, seven minutes, whatever that is. Right? But like, I just get up and I start trucking.
Steve:Well, I come up to the sign that's pointing like forward and says like North Rim.
Brian:Oh, no.
Steve:So since I switched benches, wasn't paying attention, exhausted, and I get up and I start powering through, I went like a mile the wrong way and talk about like something that just deflates you. You're hobbling out of the You're, you know, you're struggling and you think you're doing good and powering through and you're like, oh, that was just a punch.
Brian:Thank God that sign was there. Who knows how far you would have made it?
Steve:Yeah. Honestly. Right? Mean, it it It's being unfamiliar. Oh, yeah.
Steve:Unfamiliar. That mental state, the exhaustion, you know, trying to rush and yeah. For sure.
Brian:So you had to turn around and what what would you think as you walked pat back past those benches again?
Steve:I was just beating myself up. It was ridic you know, it's it's it's just almost embarrassing. It's like, what did you do? But look. That you're just exhausted.
Steve:Right? And, you know, you you that that's where you gotta be careful because the mental state isn't, you know, always there. You're not quite as sharp. Right? And so Yeah.
Brian:Did you ever hallucinate or anything like that?
Steve:No. I didn't get that I didn't get that far. I you know, fortunately, I stayed hydrated, and I had plenty of nutrition. You know, I I used one of the, Garmin watches. Right?
Steve:And I set that to kind of a 500 calorie burn notification, so that's how I kinda kept kept food going. Right? Because you're not hungry usually, so that that helped. And so, you know, all in all, I was doing pretty good.
Brian:So now the sun's coming up?
Steve:Yeah. Sun's coming up, climbing out.
Brian:That's a that's that gives you the breeze life life into you, doesn't it? Especially after being in the dark for so long in March. I mean, so many hours of darkness when that sun comes up, it just feels kinda it kinda rejuvenates you a little bit, doesn't it? Oh, for sure. For sure.
Brian:And were you at Phantom when that started to happen, or were you had you started to cross the bridge or anything like that?
Steve:It it was getting gray at Phantom, the second time at Phantom, I guess, right, when I came back. Right. I came Yeah. Yeah. Third time.
Steve:Right? Coming back, you know, after that little kinda detour. So, yeah, it was getting gray, and then I, once I got across the Bridge, I I ran into, some of the the the cowboys, right, the guys that are running the mules and stuff, but I think it was the trail crew because I I ran into them, you know, the day before they stopped, and and were talking to me, and they're like, man, did you camp at Cottonwood or something? I was like, no, man. I went to they're like, you went to the North Rim.
Steve:What are you doing? So, anyway, it was that was kind of a boost just talking to them, and then, you know, they were actually coming up. They were bringing bringing the train up, and, you know, they would pass me, and then they would stop, and I would pass them. And so we kinda piggybacked the way up, and so that was kinda helpful just talking to them and and getting up out of there. But it was it was a challenge.
Steve:No doubt.
Brian:So what were you thinking at, at that point? Because you'd been out there a long time. You start up Devil's Corkscrew. You did take Bright Angel out. Right?
Steve:No. I didn't.
Brian:Oh, you were taking South Kai back?
Steve:Yeah. So I was gonna I was gonna take Bright Angel, but then I got to a point where I was like, look, that's a little bit longer. Everything else, I was like, I just need to get out of here.
Brian:The rationalizing begins.
Steve:Well, and it was crazy.
Brian:It's true.
Steve:Because the uphill, you know, that that IT band or whatever issue I was having, it it hurt a lot more on the flat than it did uphill. And so I'm like, I'm just gonna keep trucking out. And I did have poles. I'd never hiked with poles before. Never practiced with them either.
Steve:And I didn't use them on the downhill, but on the uphill absolutely, especially with that was huge. Right? And so that helped me, helped me immensely.
Brian:And you didn't even and you didn't know any better. You didn't know that how much more difficult South Kaibab would be than than Bright Angel. And look, I'm like you. If the if it's the nice time of the year, never in the summer, never when there's any heat to worry about because of the exposure and the lack of water. But if it's the nice time of the year and I'm doing an an r three or a rim to rim from the north side, I'm taking South Kaibab out because of what you just said.
Brian:At the end of the day, it's still two and a half miles shorter. Yep. It's more elevation, but it's it's shorter. And with you not even having Bright Angel to compare it to, I mean, that was probably the right, the right call. But, I mean, as soon as you come out of that bridge, the tunnel after Black Bridge, I mean, you're just going straight up that thing.
Steve:Oh, yeah. Yeah. It it it's relentless. Right? I mean, it really is.
Steve:It's like, is this ever gonna end? And, you know, it it's just, like, again, it's that it's that mental piece. It's like one foot in front of the other. You can't think too far ahead. Right?
Steve:It's just you keep moving, keep going, try to pace yourself, and but, yeah, it's it's a long hike out.
Brian:It is. I've always felt I've so many miserable experiences coming up South Kaibab, especially on R Threes where I've never gotten out clean. But you just kinda say to yourself, you know, who cares? No one's gonna feel sorry for me. I've gotten myself into this mess, so I might as well, you know, suck it up and get myself out of this mess.
Steve:Oh, 100%. Yeah. Absolutely. It's like, you know, I there was never a point where I thought even crossed my mind of, you know, asking for help or anything else. It's like, you know, you know, you're right.
Steve:You get get yourself into it. You know what you're doing. You just gotta gotta keep sucking it up and get out of it. Right?
Brian:But having never even ascended South Kaibab, you probably I mean, you didn't have any, like, perspective on how far you had to go. So I've got to imagine that, man, at a certain point, especially maybe after Skeleton point when you still have three miles to go and you're going up those endless steps, those water bars, the mule ruts, it's just gotta feel endless at that point. You're so tired.
Steve:Oh, for sure. And I'll tell you, that was one thing. You know, Black Mountain's a rough trail. Right? And you guys always said it was it's rougher than the canyon and all that, and it and it is.
Steve:But, you know, that that canyon trail, it's it's long and and those like, the mule steps or whatever they are. Right? All the wood steps in there, that's just not made for a human stride. Right? Exactly.
Steve:So it's so off and, like, that gets so old after that long period of time. You know, that that was an another challenge, another piece of it. Right?
Brian:Yeah. You you come around the corner and you look up and you're like, oh, no. There's another long stretch of, you know, nothing but those endless incessant South Kaibaba steps. But you eventually make it. I I imagine I I'm curious what the feeling was as because you get to the end, you get past Duo Points, so you know you're getting close.
Brian:You're inside a mile, and then you get to the the chimney, the last set of switchbacks there before you get to the top of South Kaibab. What was that feeling like?
Steve:It's it's great because you're you know the end is in sight. Right? You're there, but it's not an easy end either. Right? And it's always interesting because, you know, at that point, it's it's it's light out.
Steve:It's it's later morning. Right? And, because it took me forever to get out. And, you know, you got people coming down with full of energy and, like, everything else, and you're literally dragging out. Right?
Steve:And so that that was kind of an interesting piece of it. But, yeah, it's it's it's super rewarding. Look. I mean, it's funny though because you you crawl out of there, and and you're like, I'm never doing that again.
Brian:Never.
Steve:Right? Like, I'm not I just I I barely survived it. And then, you know, a few days later, you start healing up and feeling better, and you're already kinda planning the next one.
Brian:Yeah. Usually for me, it's on the drive home.
Steve:There you go.
Brian:You finish, and it's just like, why would I do that? That was that was pure misery, but there's something about it. I mean, looking back on that rough r three, it it had to do something for you, like, mentally. Right? Like, god, I can I I can do hard things?
Steve:Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure. That's absolutely it. And that was a big part of it.
Steve:Right? You know? Look. Everybody you know, there's different parts of everybody's life. Right?
Steve:And life's gonna kick in the teeth at different times. And, you know, I'd I'd I'd got kicked in the kicked in the teeth a couple times, right, in that past year, just random different things, just part of life. And, you know, it was one of those, I'm gonna start fighting back, and that's part of the training and part of everything else. It's like, you know, I'm gonna get strong. I'm gonna do more.
Steve:I'm gonna challenge myself, and that was an a great challenge. Yes. I probably pushed it a little far, and I could have, you know, probably staged myself into that better doing maybe the rim to river and all that type of stuff. But at the end of the day, you know, I was pretty confident I can do it, and I pushed through it. Right?
Steve:So that was that was a huge, huge success, for me personally.
Brian:Yeah. We find our motivations in personal personal places, but what whatever it takes. Whatever it takes. This is awesome. I I haven't mentioned yet that we are sitting up here at the top of Black Mountain, on the South Side of it, and we've got all this, steep, jagged, black shale all around us, and we've got all these saguaros we're looking down on.
Brian:We're looking down on on Carrefoury, Cave Creek, Phoenix. We can see all the way out there to University Of Phoenix Stadium, Downtown Phoenix. Man, this is just awesome.
Steve:Oh, it's beautiful.
Brian:It's the best. Black is the best. We always talk about Black being a a great training mountain for the Grand Canyon. We'll see coach Arnie coming back up here here in a second. It's his, it's his Saturday at the at the office.
Brian:You've learned a lot, I think, from paying attention to what coach is doing, and you guys have you guys have developed a pretty good, a a pretty neat friendship over the past few months.
Steve:Oh, yeah. Absolutely. He's he's a great guy, man. And, like, you know, I I I'd heard about him, you know, through your podcasts and different things before I actually met him and and got to know him well. And, you know, you guys always said, you know, hey.
Steve:He's a great guy. If you call him, he'll answer, and he does. Right? I mean, he cares about people. And, you know, he's a coach, and he takes it to heart, and he's trying to make everybody better.
Steve:Right? And, you know, you you gotta have the drive, and I think he sees that in people, and he'll he'll take that and steer you in the right direction. So, yeah, it was great kinda you know? And seeing him do the crazy stuff that he does. Right?
Steve:I mean, you know
Brian:You guys are kinda made for each other, if I'm being honest.
Steve:It it's like, you know, in r five, it's like, you did what? Like, how did you do that? Right? And it's just it's just amazing. And then, you know, with him, you know, this this past year, I was gonna get ready to go do the cactus to clouds.
Steve:I wanted to do that because the canyon was closed. And so I wanted to test myself again. I was gonna go do it, you know, solo and all that.
Brian:Well, tell us what cactus to clouds is all about because that's another gnarly hike, not the Grand Canyon, but something that is, on that level.
Steve:Yeah. So that I found that, I think, I think through coach, you know, looking for something else hard to do, and, you know, he told me about that. So that's out in Palm Springs. And so you start out almost at sea level. Maybe it's like 400 feet elevation.
Steve:And so desert. Right? And so heat's a big thing there too and timing and everything else. And that's when you hike up to the top of the San Jacinto Peak. Right?
Steve:And so starting in Palm Springs, and it's it's a long hike up, and you're climbing over 10,000 feet. And it's not up and down, it's straight up. Right? You're just going up and
Brian:That's more than double going up South Kaibab. That's crazy.
Steve:Yeah. It it it is. And it it's it's wild because you start in a desert and then you go up through, you know, you get into the scrub brush stuff and you get up into the tall pines and then you get up above the pines and, you know, kind of the high alpine stuff. And so that's the whole cactus clouds. Right?
Steve:Starting in the cactus, getting up in the clouds. And, so that that was one I was I was getting ready to do. And, one day, I was just like, hey. I'm gonna see how many reps I can do on black just to get ready and make sure I can do the elevation. So, you know, it was a Saturday because coach was up here.
Steve:And so we were chatting and did a few together and all that, and he took off. And I just kept rolling and, I ended up texting him. I'm like, hey, man. I was like, I'm still up here, still going. And he's like, how many did you how many did you do?
Steve:And I was like, well, I'm on eight now. I was thinking about 10, but I might be about done. Oh my gosh. You know? And and, of course, he writes back.
Steve:He's like, oh, you're thinking about 10 because that's what I did. And I was like, oh, man. Now I gotta do 10.
Brian:You were doomed at that point.
Steve:That's it. So I had to turn around and keep going. But, you know, look, is a mental thing.
Brian:Insane. That Just for people to understand, black is has about 1,200 vertical feet of elevation gain and then loss on the way back down. The trail is only about eighty five one hundredths of a mile from the trailhead to the to the top, so it's short, but that shows you how nasty and gnarly and steep that it is. So to do that 10 times back to back, what are you doing?
Steve:I don't know. I don't know. That's one of well, look. It that's that's that's the piece. Look.
Steve:For me, I gotta always break it down into into pieces and chunks. Right? And so it's like, you know, even on the on the second lap, right, you do one, and on the second, I'm just gotta say to myself, hey. Look. You take one step forward, you're more than halfway there.
Steve:Right? And so just every lap kinda breaking it down and just making yourself that one foot in front of the other. But, yeah, you get people like coach and, you know, like, quite frankly, you and, you know, everybody else up here that kinda inspires you to do a little bit more. It's like, alright. I thought eight was was pretty great.
Steve:Right? And then, you know, coach is like, ah, I did 10, and it's like, okay.
Brian:I could
Steve:do two more.
Brian:Yeah. My inspiration only goes so far, Steve. I'm not inspired to do 10. I'm not inspired to do eight. I'm not inspired to do five.
Brian:I'll do a couple, but that's, that's my limit. So you guys, through that, you guys have developed this this cool relationship, as I was mentioning. And you went up and did a cactus to clouds. You had planned to do cactus to clouds to cactus, but, some things came up. So coach put it in your head that he was gonna go do cactus to clouds with you.
Brian:And, again, you guys being, cut from the same cloth in terms of your just wildness, most people go cactus to clouds at 10,000 feet of elevation, then they come back down to, I guess, where the tram is, where the tourists come up from Palm Springs, and they take the tram down. That's what most normal people do. But you and coach decide to do cactus to clouds to cactus, and you decide that you're gonna do it together. And when I hear this, I see nothing but trouble brewing stuff.
Steve:Yeah. So I was gonna do that originally. That was my plan to do the cactus to clouds to cactus, but I forgot the charger to my phone. And so you need to navigate with a phone on that one. So they call it a route, not a trail.
Steve:So it's not marked like a trail. You can find it and all that, but you really need all trails or using something, some sort of GPS. So when I was gonna come back down, it would have been dark. So my phone was dead. I asked a ranger to borrow a charging cable.
Steve:I had a battery backup. I just forgot my cable. And they're like, no. And I asked for a map, and he showed me a map, and he pointed to the tram. And they're like, don't do it.
Brian:So Strongly encouraging.
Steve:Yeah. So I was like, okay. I'm a I'm a take the advice this time. And so I did take the tram down. Anyway, back
Brian:to Did that hurt your soul?
Steve:It it was yeah. Because I mean, look, it's crushing like Yeah. That downhill's a lot and it's hard. Don't get me wrong. But it's like, I did all the uphill.
Steve:I was still feeling good physically.
Brian:And you love downhill.
Steve:I do. Downhill is my thing. I I I do. I like it. To me, that's that's kind of the mental aspect of it.
Steve:Right? And I move pretty quick going downhill and I'm just focused on the next step and, you know, I just get really dialed in when I'm going down. So, yeah, I do love the downhill.
Brian:So Those rangers didn't know that, man. They didn't wanna have a they have to do a rescue, and they've they've seen enough.
Steve:No. For sure. They got a tough job on their hands. No doubt.
Brian:But that led you back to coach.
Steve:Yeah. That's right. So then, you know, I saw coach up here, and I'd I'd been chatting with him before I did it, you know, my initial one. And he's like, hey. You know, I'm gonna do this in a couple weeks.
Steve:He's like, I I really would like you to go do it with me, and I wanna you know? He's like, now you have some unfinished business up there too, so you're leveraging that. Right? And I'm like, okay.
Brian:And it's a couple weeks, you said?
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. A couple weeks later. So, yeah, I was feeling good.
Brian:So it was only a couple weeks after you had done the? Yeah. Yeah. So you were gonna do it that fast. It was gonna be that fast of a turnaround.
Steve:Yeah. Well, I mean, I wasn't planning on it, but then, you know, coach started asking me about it. I'm like, okay. I'll do it. Like, sure.
Brian:That sounds hard. I'm in.
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it. Well, it's the unfinished business piece. Right?
Steve:He got me with that. That was that was clear. I think the last one that he did, he didn't finish as well. So it was kinda both of us going up to, you know, prove to ourselves that we're gonna do it. Right?
Steve:And so, you know, that was fun. We drove out from here and started. I think we hit the trail at at 1AM and Well, see, that's the thing.
Brian:That's the thing. I I have to stop you because I know this story a little bit, and I'm gonna fill in some some blanks here because, you were you were gonna use, you you got a, one of the Canyon Elite packs from us, our hiking packs that you that you were taking on this. So I was over at your house helping you with with that or dropping the pack off or something. And so I knew your plan because it was that day you were leaving that night, and you were telling me that, you know, you'd been up since, what, four or five in the morning. Yep.
Brian:And you guys were gonna drive starting at six or 07:00 that night and get there, and you weren't gonna stay. You were gonna start immediately. And I was like, wait. What? You're gonna start after a full day, a drive to Palm Springs, which is three and a half, four hours from Phoenix, and then you guys are gonna start what people call the most difficult hike in North America without any sleep.
Steve:Yeah. Yep. That was that was kind of the plan. Right? And so, you know, look.
Steve:I I that that was kinda coach's plan more so. Right? Because he's Sounds
Brian:about right.
Steve:He was gonna nap a little in, you know, the afternoon, and I'm not good. Like, my sleep is not that great, and I just knew that wasn't gonna work and kinda busy. So I'm like, hey, look, let's give it a shot. And look, on that one though, timing is big, right? Because you gotta get up out of that desert.
Steve:It was hot.
Brian:This is probably May, right?
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. And so we had to Already too hot. Getting there. Getting there for sure.
Steve:And so, you know, we had to we had to hit the trail early, and so I was all in. I'm like, okay. We're just gonna do this thing. Right?
Brian:So you get out of the car 01:00 in the morning and you start?
Steve:Yep. Yep. That's it. We stopped at a gas station out there, you know, around midnight, whatever, 11:30, and had some coffee and kinda got our packs geared up and everything and went there and and and just hit the trail, man. And it was, it was an awesome hike.
Steve:I mean, it was great to spend that much time with coach and, you know, made a great great team, I think, you know, doing the whole thing, keeping each other going. And, you know, it's funny. Everybody's got their own, kind of methods and things, and and that comes out on those hikes too. Right? Like, especially nutrition.
Steve:I mean, that's a total personal thing, and we're complete opposites on that. Right? Like, he does his ketones and different things, and he's dialed in with it. And, you know, me, it's like, hey. I want my sandwich at the top of the mountain, and, you know, I want my fruit and my things.
Steve:So, but, anyway, yeah, it was a it was a great great hike, and that was a that was a challenge. I mean, it is. Right?
Brian:But you guys ultimately pulled it off. Rim I'm just gonna say rim to rim to rim, but, cactus to clouds to cactus. So you got back and you got your vengeance, so to speak.
Steve:That's it. We did it. I mean, we finished I think, know, it took us a little longer, than we initially anticipated. Not not crazy, but, you know, it was I don't know if it was it was getting dark. It was just getting dark when we got back to the to the car.
Steve:Right? And so, that was an interesting one because when you're coming back down, you could see Palm Springs from quite a ways away, and so it feels like it's close. Right? And and you're like, oh, we're making progress, but it's still a long ways away. And so there's a little mental toughness there as you just kept going down, and it's like, oh my god.
Steve:Are we ever gonna get there? I mean, it's downhill, but it's still it's it it gets brutal.
Brian:So this was eighteen, twenty out? What would it take you guys?
Steve:Yeah. It must have taken us close to eighteen hours, I would think.
Brian:That's big. How did that compare, do you think, to the r three?
Steve:I think they're pretty equal, you know, as far as difficulty goes. They're just a little different. You know? I mean, hitting all that elevation at once going up, is is a challenge, but the r three's got more miles on your feet too. Right?
Steve:And so I think they're just different difficulties, but very similar, doing the full cactus to clouds to cactus in in r three, I would think.
Brian:So in between all this, Steve, you and Arnie successfully complete that. So you did cactus to clouds, you did cactus to clouds to cactus. You said how much how long after?
Steve:Oh, I think that was a couple weeks.
Brian:I think a couple weeks. Yeah. Two weeks, maybe. And where was the r there you you did your second r three somewhere in somewhere around here too.
Steve:Well, yeah. So, like, I wanted to so the the, Northrend was closed with the fire stuff and all that. Right? And so that's why I did the initial cactus to clouds. And then, you know, Arnie wanted to do the cactus to clouds to cactus.
Steve:So it's like, okay. Let's do it. But, you know, I wanted to do another r three because, look, the first one was a challenge, and it didn't go as good as I wanted it to. So I had some you know, I I needed to go redeem myself in my own mind at at the canyon. So, once that opened up, I mean, that was kinda my plan.
Steve:It wasn't, like, the immediate day, but I wanted to be ready to go when that when that opened. And so it wasn't long after that I went and and did that. So, yeah, I mean, I think that was seven, eight days after I did cactus to clouds to cactus. What?
Brian:Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So we're talking okay.
Brian:Let's do the timeline here. Over a three week stretch, you did cactus to clouds. You went back and did cactus to clouds to cactus, and you did rim to rim to rim in the Grand Canyon over about a three week span?
Steve:Yeah. It might have been close to four. I don't know. Had a couple weeks between. But, yeah, I mean, it was Wow.
Steve:And and the cactus to clouds to cactus in the r three were for sure, like, you know, seven, eight days apart. So that was a that that was pushing it. You know? Like
Brian:That's unbelievable. Yeah. That's How did you feel on that last r three?
Steve:I felt great. You still felt great
Brian:even after all the pounding you'd taken on those cactus clouds?
Steve:Yeah. I mean, my my feet were my feet were hurt. I mean, no doubt. Like, you know, I had to stop and tape them up and Too new. But I knew enough to take care of them.
Steve:Right? So, but physically, other than that, I was doing really well.
Brian:Listen, man. I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to say that if you stop and think about this, what you accomplished over those three weeks, four weeks, whatever it is, and let's say over a one month period, I wonder how many times something like that has been accomplished before. That that's an incredible accomplishment, and it speaks so loudly to all the work you've put in and everything you've done and the the I don't wanna say transformation. I don't think it was a transformation for you where you lost a bunch of weight and you were this out of shape dude. You were in decent shape when you started all this, but you still became something that you hadn't been before, and this kind of validates and shows, holy cow, what we are capable of.
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. A lot of work, but look, anybody can do it too. I mean, I'd like you know, the my the first time I did black, man, it was my goal was just to to make it to the top period, right, and stopped a bunch of times.
Steve:And then the next goal was make it to the top without stopping, you know, not a time thing, and you just keep progressing and doing more. And but you're right. It's nice to see the kind of reward of that. Right? And that's that's where I wanna get to and where where fortunately I feel like I am is like, hey.
Steve:Look. It's if somebody says, hey. I wanna go do something that's hard in r three or whatever it is, then I'm like, okay. I can do it. Like, yeah.
Steve:Maybe you need to rest. Maybe you need to train a little, but it it's not out of the question. It's like, okay. Let's let's go do some hard things. Right?
Steve:So you're ready to do
Brian:it at a moment's notice.
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm at that point now, so it's good. It's it's it's a great feeling for sure. And do
Brian:you do you really believe it that anyone can do
Steve:I do. I do. I mean, look, there's physical limitations and there's different things. So, you know, I guess not anyone, but I think a majority of people absolutely could do it. Now, you gotta have the mental toughness to do it.
Steve:The physical aspect, think anybody could do with the exception of, you know, certain limitations. Right? But the mental piece, I don't think everybody has that or that they're not willing to, you know, fight mentally to do it.
Brian:But they have it in them. They have it in them. They do. Right? I think everybody has a why in there somewhere.
Brian:And if you can tap that and then hold yourself accountable, I mean, great things are possible.
Steve:100%. It and and I you nailed it there. It's like you need to absolutely tap your why. Why do you wanna do it? Right?
Steve:You know, do you wanna be like Larry when you get older and be able to travel the world and continue to do things or go on your hunting adventures or, you know, whatever it is. Pick up your grandkids, right, and and enjoy life. What what's your why? And then, you know, once you have that in your head, you'll be driven and and and you could do it. It's one step at a time, one foot in front of the other.
Steve:Right? I mean, it's it's just that slow progress that really builds, quicker than you would think. There's more out there, you know. Like I said, I never thought of the canyon. Never at all thought of hiking the canyon until you guys start talking about it.
Steve:Right? And so there's there's more stuff. It's just what's next.
Brian:That is Steve Martin. Now it is easy to get competitive with certain people, but not so much Steve. He's just the nicest guy and you can tell that he roots for everyone and stays very humble. But now you know there is also a fire burning within. He just knows how to channel it better than than most of us do maybe.
Brian:Now he is such a good guy that he texted me after our interview and said, hey man, I really wanted to talk more about your pack, which I, of course, appreciated. And it is an honor that Steve does use our Hiking Canyon Elite exclusively now. He headed for that entire triple crown of the two Cactus to Clouds efforts and his r three, and reports that the pack has performed flawlessly. And for a guy that loves the downhill as much as Steve does, I know he appreciates how little bounce he feels on the pack as he descends. We do appreciate those comments.
Brian:And if you'd like to try a Canyon Elite, like Steve, or our original rim to rim pack, which coach Arnie and I use, if you wanna try those for yourself, you can find them at hikin.club. That's hikin.club. Alright. Coach Arnie time now, and our exercise physiologist and Canyon coach is sticking with the theme this time.
Coach Arnie:Hey, guys. Coach Arnie here with another Grand Canyon tip of the week. This week is a big favorite of mine, the downhill. Why? Because the canyon is about the downhill.
Coach Arnie:First, let's look at some mechanics. Okay? From the ground up, the feet, strong feet are a must over time. The anterior tibialis as we're working way our way up, saving the calves, preventing foot and knee problems over time. That muscle runs from the ankle to the knee.
Coach Arnie:Super important because it dorsiflex the foot, which absorbs pressure from the foot as we push on our way down, absorbing all that energy coming downhill. Hip flexors as we move our way up. These strong hip flexors which cross the hip joint, they saves the knees. It provides better posture with our pelvis because our pelvis has to be able to be has to move front to back, side to side. It has to be mobile, flexible, and strong.
Coach Arnie:Alright? Now let's talk about the dance. This is putting it all together, which is balance. And balance is related to your strength. So over time, the stronger runners, hikers, individuals will have more durability going downhill.
Coach Arnie:It's just the way it is. The more durable you are, the more impact you can take, and then you will be less apt to get injured. Now let's look at the next thing, which is super important when you're going downhill, is focus and mindset. You've gotta be focused on what you're doing. You can't just be willy nilly.
Coach Arnie:You can't be unfocused. You gotta keep your eyes on the trail. You gotta see things. You gotta look for potholes, uneven terrain. You gotta be aware.
Coach Arnie:Your feet have to be you gotta be ready to move. Gotta have good eyes set. We do a lot of we do a drill called the goat drill, which helps us to multitask. So then we use visual, cognitive, and vestibular for balance. Okay?
Coach Arnie:So what's in it for you? So when I mean you, it's just most people aren't running, you know, crazy downhill like I do. I love it. It it reminds me of before I did cactus of cloud a month or so back. I went with this gentleman who is he is out of control.
Coach Arnie:He's the guy that went with me, and I said, let's go. Just push me. And I set my fastest time ever on Black Mountain just following him. But he was going so fast. I had all I could do was focus on the next step.
Coach Arnie:I couldn't even think about how fast I was going. I just had to focus on the next step and maintain posture. All I told myself is stay balanced. Stay balanced. Posture, posture, posture, mindset, focus.
Coach Arnie:That's all I kept saying, and at the end, it was my fastest time ever. So you gotta stay focused. Okay? So so what's in it for you? Less stress on your body.
Coach Arnie:More energy for the uphill, and that's probably the most important thing. If you take if it takes less energy to go downhill, you're gonna have more energy to go uphill. But a lot of people that I talk to at the canyon, they get wiped out going downhill, and they don't have a lot going uphill. So we wanna flip that. We wanna have more energy for the uphill.
Coach Arnie:And we wanna hike pain free. That's super important, don't you think? And lastly, we wanna finish with a smile on our face. That's what this is all about. So you learn the dance, you get strong, you focus on the downhill, so that you finish with a smile on your face.
Coach Arnie:I love you guys. I hope this helps, and I'll talk to you later.
Brian:Yes. In case you were wondering the guy he was trying to keep up with on that downhill, yes, it was Steve. Coach Arnie, Arnie Foncica junior, his contact information as always is in the show notes. Hey, find us all in our Hike Club Grand Canyon Facebook group if you'd like to continue the conversation. We all hang out there every day and you've got a whole community ready to help with whatever you need.
Brian:So much experience in our Hike Club Grand Canyon Facebook group, so get yourself in there. Alright. That is it for now. My name is Brian Special, encouraging you as always to go hike the canyon. Take that first step.
Brian:Embrace the journey. And when you get there, whether it's for time goals or taking your time, just hike your own hike and savor every step in the magnificent Grand Canyon. We'll see you next time on the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude show powered by Hikin'. Support the brand that supports this show at hikin.club. That's hikin.club.