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blue-sky (verb)
: to offer ideas that are conceived by unrestrained imagination or optimism.
Hosted by Erin O’Toole, President and Managing Director of ADIT North America. Erin is the former Member of Parliament for Durham and former leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. The Blue Skies political podcast explores issues facing Canada and the world in a format that brings together thought leaders for an informed and engaging conversation.
00:00:00:01 - 00:00:23:09
Intro
We live in an age of political polarization and preference, bubbles of economic change, rising threats, and a rapidly changing world, Canada needs to stay relevant. We need more smart conversations. We need to dive into critical issues and big ideas with passion and unrestrained optimism. I'm Erin O'Toole. Welcome to the Blue Skies podcast.
00:00:23:10 - 00:00:48:15
Erin O'Toole
Welcome to Blue Skies. I'm Erin O'Toole, and I'm so happy to be back. Blue skying issues with you, blue sky in Canada. There's been a bit of a hiatus in the podcast, and it's been nice to actually hear from people both in email and even running into people saying, you haven't done a podcast lately. And so I apologize to the loyal listeners of Blue Skies, because travel and busyness means I haven't done one.
00:00:48:17 - 00:01:19:19
Erin O'Toole
But what a way to come back. We are facing existential challenges as a country, as a world. Our Prime Minister, Mark Carney, mentioned a rupture in the world order in his famous speech from January this year at Davos. So today we're going to talk about prime ministers, plural, not just the current one, but the past one. And we're really, really excited to be joined by someone I consider a great Canadian and a friend.
00:01:19:21 - 00:01:52:05
Erin O'Toole
JDM James Stewart has been a teacher for over 30 years, award winning he was when I first encountered his name, JDM Stewart. It was always the three names before the last name. It was usually because he was a prodigious letter writer to The Globe and Mail. But then he went further in 2018 and wrote a book, Being Prime Minister, that was followed up with last year's The Prime Minister's, which he hastily changed to include Mark Carney.
00:01:52:06 - 00:02:21:03
Erin O'Toole
His award winning teaching and writing has been noticed. He's an accomplished speaker, writer, recipient of the Queen's Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Award. Welcome to Blue Skies, GDM Stewart, great to be with you, Erin. I'm pleased to be the guy who get you back on the air and what a time we're in. You know, as the listeners may know, I was just asked by the Prime Minister to sit on this Canada-U.S. Relations committee.
00:02:21:05 - 00:02:47:05
Erin O'Toole
All parties represented industry sectors because we're facing this this challenge for Canada, the the order we're used to trade with the US, continental security, with the US. A strong NATO seems to be in upheaval. So this is a time where I think more and more Canadians have to start understanding and appreciating their history better. And you do this so well.
00:02:47:09 - 00:03:16:07
Erin O'Toole
So your book last year, which has already sold out its first run, it's now in second printing run for being prime minister. Hold that book up. You've got one nearby, I hope I do hope people available at finer bookstores near you. Yeah. What inspired you to write a book on Canada's prime ministers?
00:03:16:09 - 00:03:36:04
J.D.M. Stewart
Well, I think first of all, the fact that I spent a life teaching kids Canadian history was the number one reason why I wrote this book.
00:03:16:09 - 00:03:36:04
J.D.M. Stewart
And there was also a specific moment that occurred when I was speaking in front of a model United Nations group a few years ago. And these are usually the, you know, the more engaged high school students. And I was speaking to them and I had a picture of Lester B Pearson on my screen and underneath it said Lester B Pearson.
00:03:36:04 - 00:03:54:23
J.D.M. Stewart
And I said to the gathering of high school students, I said, who is this on my screen? And nobody knew who Lester B Pearson was. So I thought, that's a bit of a shame. And I said to the teacher afterward, I said, you know, I'm kind of surprised that nobody knew who Lester B Pearson was, right? A model United Nations thing.
00:03:54:23 - 00:04:15:01
J.D.M. Stewart
And she said, you know, no one really teaches about prime ministers anymore. And I went, well, okay, I really don't want to hear that. And so I thought, I've got to do something about this because I can look after things in my own classroom. But I felt that there was a lack of appreciation of Canadian political history, Prime ministers in particular.
00:04:15:04 - 00:04:38:00
J.D.M. Stewart
There hadn't been a book written about prime ministers for more than 25 years, and it's been a pet interest of mine for most of my adult life. And so I said, I'm going to be the guy who writes a new book about prime ministers and brings a new a new audience to the history of prime ministers. And hopefully I've been successful with with this book because I've tried to include other things as well.
00:04:38:05 - 00:04:59:07
J.D.M. Stewart
And not just it's not just the straight up politics in the book I've added in dimensions that haven't been covered in previous books, for example, Prime ministers and their indigenous policy that hasn't been in any previous works on prime ministers. I've included pieces about prime ministers and environmental policy because we've had a lot of people wouldn't think about it off the top of their head.
00:04:59:07 - 00:05:22:10
J.D.M. Stewart
But from Sir John McDonald, who created the first national park up to Mark Carney, prime ministers have had to deal with the environment. So I've tried to bring a new twist on on things, a new interpretation for 2025, and I'm getting really good feedback on the book, so I'm quite happy with it. That is fascinating. And that, Molly, United Nations story is depressing.
00:05:22:12 - 00:05:45:12
Erin O'Toole
You know, here's our prime minister who is a diplomat, senior diplomat, helped create the the rules based order with the United Nations itself. And that's right. And the kids want a Nobel Prize and what a Nobel Prize they probably thought Pearson was. Isn't that the airport? So yeah. So good for you. Are you you know, probe on that.
00:05:45:13 - 00:06:12:01
Erin O'Toole
If we're not teaching it or haven't been in the last few decades, how have history teachers responded to your work? Are you finding that some of them are incorporating it in to their teaching? You know, obviously there's a high school history component in Ontario at least, and usually schools do a civics in around grade five. I used to speak to to those classes as well.
00:06:12:02 - 00:06:36:17
Erin O'Toole
Are you getting uptake from teachers, and is this a resource that people have been kind of crying out for? I wouldn't say that anyone's been crying out for it. I'd say the biggest response I have got is from the lay public, you know, fully educated people who were looking for a refresher in Canadian history. And this book touches on a lot of the great themes since 1867.
00:06:36:22 - 00:07:12:20
J.D.M. Stewart
Teachers, you know, obviously, some really appreciate it for sure, but there's there's a lot to be done in a history classroom. And I think it's important for everyone to understand that Canadian history isn't just about the the political leaders. There's a lot of a lot of curriculum expectations that you have to touch on. And so I am working with the Ontario History and Social Science Teachers Association to try to get this book visible to teachers, because it would be very a very useful primer for a teacher to have on his or her desk.
00:07:12:20 - 00:07:37:00
J.D.M. Stewart
And I also specifically paid some money out of my own pocket to make a rich and robust index at the back of the book. So I've got a 17 page index, which is very useful for students, very useful for teachers trying to prepare lessons and and go where they need to go in the book, and also very useful for journalists to be able to use this as a resource too.
00:07:37:01 - 00:08:07:06
J.D.M. Stewart
So I'm still working with teachers trying to get that penetrate in there, because over time I would say, you know, like that woman who said to me, we don't really teach prime ministers anymore. There is a bit of, I wouldn't call it a backlash, but I would say there has been a turn of focus away from history, from the top down, if you will, prime ministers and more history to try to be incorporating, I'll call it social history as a as a shorthand.
00:08:07:06 - 00:08:29:17
J.D.M. Stewart
And there's been a resistance to, well, why would I teach about prime ministers when it's just a bunch of dead white guys? Well, my argument to that is, you know, we can't change the past they had those were the prime ministers as they were. And those decisions that they made have had tremendous impact on the life of the country for not just at the political level, but at the level of the average citizen.
00:08:29:17 - 00:08:56:07
J.D.M. Stewart
If you look at tax policy or environmental policy, whatever it is, all those decisions from from leaders have an impact. And and I'll just give you one great quote that I really love from my introduction, which is from Peter C Newman, the great political writer and journalist who said the an hour in the office of the Prime Minister is an hour in the history of the country, and I firmly believe that.
00:08:56:07 - 00:09:33:07
J.D.M. Stewart
And that's why this kind of a book is really important. And, you know, you don't have to teach about every prime minister, but we need to incorporate them in a considerable way as we go through the history of Canada. When you're trying to teach students about our past, well, let's make this slightly less than an our podcast interesting to show that, hey, these dead old white guys are interesting and did some interesting things of the Prime ministers you wrote on, which Prime Minister, in your view, is under appreciated, especially today and and why?
00:09:33:08 - 00:09:58:22
J.D.M. Stewart
Having looked at all of them, do you think they should be known a little better? Yeah, I think my my answer to that is Louis Saint-Laurent. And people who know political history of Canada really well probably would say, oh, he's not underrated. He did so much, but he did do so much, but he's not really well known. And I would say he probably rarely makes an appearance in a grade ten Canadian history class in Ontario.
00:09:58:22 - 00:10:31:14
J.D.M. Stewart
And he sometimes called the forgotten prime minister. And that may be partly because of the smoothness with which he governed during the period from 1948 to 1957. It may also be the fact that his personality was kind of patrician and straightforward. He wasn't a dynamic personality, but he was a lovely gentleman, and he got the nickname Uncle Louis, which some of your listeners may have heard before because of his avuncular style.
00:10:31:14 - 00:11:09:21
J.D.M. Stewart
He loved children, children loved him. He was a pure gentleman, and I think a noble person with a great set of ethics and a way of governing. But he brought in big ticket items. And when we talk about national projects today, the Prime Minister is is looking for a number of them. The Saint Lawrence Seaway was a project that began under him, although it should be noted, and this is in my book, that R.B. Bennett signed a treaty with the United States in the 1930s to start a Saint Lawrence Seaway, but the Senate defeated the treaty.
00:11:09:21 - 00:11:35:09
J.D.M. Stewart
So it never it never happened until Saint Laurent got things going with Harry Truman, I think it was, and Eisenhower. So those are big projects. Also interesting from today's perspective, Erin. And this is why we see why Louis is so important. He increased military spending. I think at one point it was 8% of GDP. So yes, this was in the Cold War era.
00:11:35:09 - 00:12:05:18
J.D.M. Stewart
But he knew that the there had to be some military force behind the soft power that he was trying to make it a play on the world stage. So that's a long answer, but it just shows the importance of Louis Saint-Laurent. But he he doesn't get talked about a lot, doesn't get invoked in a lot of speeches, even by the Liberal Party, strangely enough, because he was one of our more successful prime ministers.
00:12:05:20 - 00:12:42:20
Erin O'Toole
It's interesting you say that because I didn't know which you were going to choose in advance, but I often talk about how critical Saint was, particularly for NATO and early on, the the failing of the United Nations because of the veto structure and the Cold War meant that gave a speech in the United Nations talking about the the challenges of the structure when the Cold War was causing the vetoes and that the Western alliance needed NATO 8%.
00:12:42:22 - 00:13:07:22
Erin O'Toole
You know, some people are scratching their head at the 5% that we're now signed on to by 2033. But if you think about it, at that time, there was no public health care system, there was no Canada pension plan. There was a hodgepodge of some old age pensions and and some veterans benefits. But there wasn't a big administrative and social state of the government at that point.
00:13:07:23 - 00:13:39:20
Erin O'Toole
And defense and borders were probably the primary thing that federal government did talk about. You know, I've often heard this story and you can confirm it, putting you on the spot. Maybe it's in an anecdote, but this famous story about John Turner saving decent Baker from drowning. Yeah, it is that a real story? And are there other sort of funny historical oddities about our Prime Minister that you think Canadians would appreciate?
00:13:39:22 - 00:14:07:11
J.D.M. Stewart
That is a true story. I think it was in I think it was in Bahamas when when John Turner rescued John defend Baker there. And there are there are a lot of great anecdotes about prime ministers. And, you know, I love there's a lot of great golf stories between Jean Chrétien and Bill Clinton. I guess one time they were golfing, it may have been in in Montreal and it was getting dark, but they wouldn't quit.
00:14:07:11 - 00:14:29:21
J.D.M. Stewart
So the security vehicles turned their headlights on so that they could golf the final couple of holes by the lights of the security vehicles. And and then they were I remember they were golfing in December, one time in Washington, I think, and Chrétien was just wearing a sweater and a coat because it was kind of chilly out. But Bill Clinton had three jackets on because he's not used to the cold.
00:14:29:21 - 00:14:54:14
J.D.M. Stewart
And and then he invites him back to the white House afterwards to help decorate the Christmas tree. And there's a great story about Louis Saint Laurent as well that I would love to tell, because it just speaks to the humanity of the man. And I think most of our prime ministers have had a fairly strong dose of humanity, and I think it's an essential skill for managing a cabinet, managing a country and and having empathy.
00:14:54:15 - 00:15:15:08
J.D.M. Stewart
And we even see that with Prime Minister Mark Carney, particularly when he's talking about emotional things like shootings and things like this. He really it really touches him. But Saint Laurent, he was he was the first prime minister, and he's coming out to the elevator at the House of Commons, and the elevator operator is there. And Saint Laurent says to him, you know, it was probably 7 or 8:00 in the evening.
00:15:15:08 - 00:15:33:02
J.D.M. Stewart
He's like, what are you what are you still doing here? He says, well, I go home when you go home, Prime Minister. He says, no, no, no, I can operate this elevator by myself from this day forward. You go home when everyone else goes home at the end of the regular workday. So it just speaks about his, his, his manner of being a human.
00:15:33:02 - 00:16:09:16
J.D.M. Stewart
And I've always liked that anecdote about Louise.
Erin'Toole
No, these are the things that I think personalize our leaders. And I've really not appreciated in recent years where you get a snapshot of of one aspect of a leader's life and very little else, whether we've seen that with, with Sir John and McDonald's or others. And that's probably a perfect time to segue into the meteor part of the podcast, which is how do we properly reconcile our past and our present.
00:16:09:16 - 00:16:45:07
Erin'Toole
And it seems like we are emerging from the post-Covid post sort of identity politics awakening and communities that took down Sir John McDonald. Statues are now, in some cases, reconsidering, you know, whether that's Kingston, whether it's the plinth in Montreal. We still have a statue, a pillar to Nelson in Montreal, but right plinth with Sir John's name is empty.
00:16:45:08 - 00:17:11:22
Erin'Toole
I know, pulled down by a mob. And you know, when I go to Ottawa, which which I've been going a bit recently, there used to be that lovely statue of Sir John MacDonald and Sir Wilfrid Laurier. Or maybe it was George Brown, I think, sitting on the bench in the luggage area of, of the terminal where you got right, and only if you remember that that quietly disappeared.
00:17:11:23 - 00:17:44:05
Erin'Toole
No fan there. How do we reconcile these things? And do you see the pendulum swinging back somewhat where we realized you you can't just say Sir John and MacDonald was about the sad chapter of residential schools when he created the modern country we know today. What are your thoughts on on resurrecting Sir John McDonald? You know, it's it's it's hard for people to put aside their values of today because we all feel them very strongly.
00:17:44:05 - 00:18:19:22
J.D.M. Stewart
But the historians job is to try to look dispassionately at the past and look at those times for the way those times were and not impose our own feelings about things. So we might be very regretful about our treatment of indigenous people for many decades in Canadian history, not just the time of Sir John and McDonald, but a lot of people get really passionate and want to settle scores that they feel really upset about today by taking it out on on figures from the past.
00:18:19:22 - 00:18:53:20
J.D.M. Stewart
And that's not that's not really good history. So to some degree that that shift is happening. We've seen the statue of Sir John and MacDonald be unboxed on Queen's Park in front of the Ontario legislature in Toronto. There they are bringing back statues, including Sir John and MacDonald in Wilmot Township near Kitchener. But on the other hand, I was actually speaking at a council meeting in Prince Edward County this week where they were debating whether they might bring back the Sir John MacDonald statue in Picton.
00:18:53:22 - 00:19:19:00
J.D.M. Stewart
And there was quite a vocal group of activists that came out to that meeting and spoke very passionately, although I would say fairly misinformed. On the issue of Sir John and MacDonald. And the motion to bring back the statue was defeated 8 to 6 in the Prince Edward County Council meeting just this week. So there still is a small but vocal minority that will rise up to to fight this.
00:19:19:00 - 00:19:45:07
J.D.M. Stewart
But I would say it's people just don't want to take the time to understand the complexity of of history. And I've often likened it to a family relationship or somebody that, you know, you can't make a decision about who they are or what their legacy is from just scraping the surface. You've got to really get to know a person in order to really understand who they are.
00:19:45:07 - 00:20:06:00
J.D.M. Stewart
And it's the same in history. You need to spend a lot of time to dig in and find out what a person's historical legacy is. And at the same time, you have to be willing to entertain more than one thought at the same time. So many historical figures have done some great things, but others at the same time have had failures.
00:20:06:01 - 00:20:31:01
J.D.M. Stewart
But we tend to only focus on the failures in in recent historical evaluations. And I think that that is what's been happening with Sir John and MacDonald, because he's not meant to be responsible for all of the tragedies of the relationship between the Canadian government and indigenous peoples. There's a lot of blame to go around for many decades.
00:20:31:01 - 00:20:51:14
J.D.M. Stewart
And and I think that it's very easy just depended on one person. That's the easy way out. It's much more challenging to try to see how how complex this whole issue is. And unfortunately for MacDonald, you know, we live in an age where we don't have a lot of attention span to go and do a deep dive on thing things.
00:20:51:14 - 00:21:10:04
J.D.M. Stewart
And we also like to be able to, you know, everything's a nail. I got a hammer and everything's nail. I'm just going to bang on it. And I think that's unfortunate. And what I tried to do in my book, Aaron was give a very balanced portrait of Sir John and MacDonald, and a lot of people have emailed me out of the blue and said how they've appreciated it.
00:21:10:04 - 00:21:33:21
J.D.M. Stewart
And, you know, Margaret McMillan, the great Canadian historian, said on a on a podcast with The Hub, she said, you know, when we do history as a prosecution, that's not history. When we do history as a defense, that's not history. What we need to do is see history in the round. And by that, I think she means we need to see the full, the full picture and make an evaluation then.
00:21:33:22 - 00:22:13:11
J.D.M. Stewart
And we haven't been doing that, which is unfortunate. I think a lot of the emotion has come out of it. So we're probably capable of having that dialog. But it doesn't seem to always be that people want to participate in those kinds of conversations.
Erin O'Toole
Also, that history in the round, I really, really like and appreciate that. And as you said, distilling our founding prime minister's career down to some terrible comments he made in the House of Commons and some misguided and and hurtful deeply policies, narrows that down to the to the to the prosecution, as you said.
00:22:13:11 - 00:22:40:04
Erin O'Toole
And it misses the humanity of the man and a leader who had vision and also had tragedy and was flawed. I used to say when the cancel culture debate was coming up, and most of the time I felt I did a good job representing it. Sometimes I stepped outside of bounds a few times in relation to Ryerson in particular, but I always tried to have a balanced discussion about it.
00:22:40:04 - 00:23:05:05
Erin O'Toole
So let's let's do a bit of a round on Sir John McDonald. James, the man was flawed, but he also had vision. He had tragedy. What is something that I think you could share with our listeners that that humanize Sir John McDonald at this time were we're just starting to revisit that legacy and, and correct the cancellations of them in some cases.
00:23:05:09 - 00:23:29:09
J.D.M. Stewart
Yeah. And I think a lot of people don't want to see the human side of these folks, because it actually kind of undercuts their argument. If you're trying to portray Sir John and McDonald as an evil menace or a killer, which he was neither of those things. Why would you want to hear about the tragedy of losing his first wife, and why would you want to hear about his?
00:23:29:11 - 00:23:57:13
J.D.M. Stewart
He lost a child in childbirth. And and and his his his daughter was mentally handicapped, but yet he he was an extremely devoted father. He entertained indigenous leaders at his home in Ottawa, at Ernst Cliff and asked one of them, Star Blanket, if he would give an indigenous name to his daughter, which Starr Blanket did do. He gave her the name star from his name Star Blanket.
00:23:57:13 - 00:24:21:18
J.D.M. Stewart
And so McDonald also like people actually loved Sir John McDonald. Of course, we're not saying like universally loved 100%. Obviously there are people who were detractors of his, but he was genuinely liked and respected. He was the kind of guy who would know your name and who would slap you on the back and ask how so-and-so was doing back in your constituency.
00:24:21:18 - 00:24:44:03
J.D.M. Stewart
So and he also recognized, if we're talking about indigenous people, you know, yes, he we we, we don't like residential schools. And he said some things that we wouldn't appreciate in the House of Commons today. But he also said things like, indigenous people are the first people of this country. And one day I hope that they will have a member here in the House of Commons.
00:24:44:03 - 00:25:11:22
J.D.M. Stewart
In fact, there was an 1885 franchise bill that did pass in the House of Commons in which the the right to vote was given to indigenous peoples who lived east of Manitoba, property owning indigenous people. And so this was something that never gets in talked about in public debates. And in Richard Gwynn's biography of Sir John and MacDonald, he makes a strong point for this and says, look, this never gets talked about.
00:25:11:22 - 00:25:38:04
J.D.M. Stewart
It's a little known bit of history. But he tried to give the vote to some indigenous people, and nobody is trying to say that. That means we're erasing all the things of his indigenous policy that we didn't like. We're not saying that. What we're saying is there's a fuller picture here. And and I think the human, the human way is to look at the whole picture of a person's legacy and, and be able to entertain two ideas at the same time.
00:25:38:04 - 00:26:01:03
J.D.M. Stewart
And, you know, MacDonald could have done policies that we we don't like, and we really regret them. And and some of them are cruel. But at the same time, it was a different period in the 1880s. And there's more to MacDonald than just that. Yeah. Well said. And let's before we close on Sir John McDonnell, he helped forge the national vision.
00:26:01:04 - 00:26:51:08
Erin O'Toole
You know, he he superimposed himself on the meeting of the maritime provinces who were talking maritime union and then asked them to think bigger, talked about the railway and the Dominion, and started establishing a national policy so that the natural north south trade with the Americans was restricted so we could build up commerce between between the provinces. Are there is there anything Prime Minister Carney today and parliamentarians today could learn from Sir John McDonald as our first great patriot, at a time where the Canadian identity and our prosperity is being challenged, any of those lessons that we can learn and take in our in our negotiations with the Trump administration,
00:26:51:08 - 00:27:11:14
J.D.M. Stewart
I think it's to be steadfast in your belief. And I think we saw a little bit of that from the Prime Minister. I think it was in the press conference on today's April 24th. So I think it was on April 22nd when he said, oh, you know, what's irritating is, you know, 50% tariffs on lumber, 50% tariffs on steel. So he's pushing back a little bit.
00:27:11:14 - 00:27:46:08
J.D.M. Stewart
And I think all prime ministers always know that it is important to to push back at the right time against the United States. And MacDonald would push back at the right time. But he had a compelling vision for for Canada. And, you know, most all of our prime ministers, some more successful than others, have understood that negotiating in that relationship with the United States is it can be a challenging one, because there is a, I would say, a default mechanism for Canadians to be anti-American for the most part.
00:27:46:08 - 00:28:16:20
J.D.M. Stewart
And there's historical and immigration reasons for that. And so prime ministers don't want to seem to be too cozy with the with the president, and they don't want to see to be sabotaging the Or over or sabotaging the relationship. So my my advice to the Prime Minister would be to, you know, be steadfast and know who sent you to Ottawa and and that there is an important to standing up for, for Canada, for sure.
00:28:16:22 - 00:28:39:21
Erin O'Toole
The first great patriot, the old chieftain, has lessons for us today. Okay. We're going to go now to the Prime Minister that, you know, is my favorite, James. Sir Robert Borden, I think an underappreciated leader, given the tensions, a young country had a World War one. But here for the blue skies nerds out there that listened to all my stuff.
00:28:39:21 - 00:29:06:00
Erin O'Toole
And thank you for doing that. I quoted Sir Sir Robert Borden in my first English response as a member of the government, as the new Minister of Veterans Affairs, because there was a lawsuit called the Equitas lawsuit by veterans that was based in large part on a, quote that Prime Minister Borden said related to the sacred obligation we have to our veterans.
00:29:06:00 - 00:29:28:20
Erin O'Toole
As you know, he visited injured Canadians in hospitals while he was in London for imperial conferences. And then in my final speech in the House of Commons, I quoted Borden as well, which you footnote in your book about. We're squabbling too much on social media and not debating our great national purpose. I still think that's the case in most days, and that is the Commons.
00:29:28:22 - 00:29:51:20
Erin O'Toole
Tell us a little bit about Borden and the country he was leading, the Union government he forged, and what we might be able to learn from his lesson at the time. We we need more unity in this country with, you know, potential secession movements in different parts of the country. How can we learn from Borden in today's context?
00:29:52:00 - 00:30:15:22
J.D.M. Stewart
Well, I love that you said he's your favorite, because there's a moment I quote in the book where Jack Granite Steen and Graham Ralston write in their book called The Canada the Canadian 100 The Top 100 Canadians of the 20th century. And in their little chapter on Robert Borden, they say there's probably not 1 in 1000 Canadians who would recognize Robert Borden today.
00:30:15:22 - 00:30:43:06
J.D.M. Stewart
And and that's unfortunate, because he was a very significant prime minister in Canadian history. And what can be what I've always liked about Borden was he had this profound dedication to a cause, and the cause was not just the First World War, but when he went to visit the soldiers, as you mentioned, he saw the sacrifice that the young men were making.
00:30:43:06 - 00:31:11:23
J.D.M. Stewart
And he said, I'm not going to let your sacrifice go down and be in vain. And so then he returned and decided, like basically winning the war. And Canada's contribution was going to be the cause of his life, and he almost killed himself being prime minister during that extremely stressful time of the Great War. And I think that that sober dedication to the job is something that we can all learn from.
00:31:11:23 - 00:31:46:02
J.D.M. Stewart
And also, Borden was very steadfast in the idea that the British Empire recognized the effort that Canada had put forward during the war, and and he never lost sight of that. And when I was saying earlier that, you know, he almost killed himself doing the job, I guess it was in 1919. It might have been early 1920. He went to see his doctor because he had had a number of days where he was ordered to stay in bed because he was basically having a nervous breakdown.
00:31:46:02 - 00:32:07:08
J.D.M. Stewart
And the doctor said, look, you can either stop being prime minister or you're going to be dead in six months. So he went on. He retired from being prime minister and went on a six month vacation, and then came back 1920, and then Arthur Meehan became prime minister. But, you know, to some that up there's a there's a dedication to the job that Borden brought.
00:32:07:08 - 00:32:32:21
J.D.M. Stewart
And I think there was a sense of duty. And I think that's what you were getting at with your quotation about about the importance of sticking by our soldiers and, and the somber sacrifice. And I remember he also I used to quote one of his speeches when I would give the Remembrance Day address at Bishop's School, where I taught, and there was a line about he would say, you know, these guys are all fighting over there, but you're at home here.
00:32:32:21 - 00:32:54:11
J.D.M. Stewart
And what is your legacy going to be to carry on what they're fighting for? So he was passing the torch to Canadians and saying, you have a responsibility as well, a sacred obligation, like I think you were referring to, to to carry on what these soldiers want us to be as a country. So we all have an obligation to carry on what other people have built for us.
00:32:54:11 - 00:33:32:22
J.D.M. Stewart
And I think we've lost sight of that a little bit as a country. And and when we know our history a little bit more, we've become a little bit more patriotic and proud of what the country has, has achieved. Well said.
Erin O'Toole
And that's a perfect segue from Sir Robert Borden into this issue about our identity, our culture, social cohesion, and how if you don't understand your past and if you don't have any affinity to the country and its roots and its origins, would young people step up to fight for it today?
00:33:32:23 - 00:33:56:10
Erin O'Toole
Would we come together to help the less fortunate if there was calamity? It's this social cohesion that I worry. Social media is kind of breaking up a little bit. Talk about how both in your teaching and I've encountered a few students of yours over the years. In fact, you had a call with with one of them who I think interviewed me.
00:33:56:11 - 00:34:35:10
Erin O'Toole
So you were that teacher going above and beyond. How can history bring us together? And is it time to to to start having more books and lectures and events related to not just the the dead white guys, but a whole range of characters, indigenous leaders, people from our history that we need to appreciate better. Yeah, I think that is always there's always the moment to be talking about Canadian history, because that's how you try to understand who you are as a country.
00:34:35:12 - 00:35:07:20
J.D.M. Stewart
I think the Massey Commission, which was appointed in 1949 by Prime Minister Louis Salamanders, his name coming up again. But he was concerned about about Canadian culture and the incursion of American culture because it was really dominating Canadian culture at the time, as it really does today. But the Massey Commission, when it filed its report in 1951, said that it is imperative that a country know its own stories, its national achievements and and traditions.
00:35:07:20 - 00:35:34:21
J.D.M. Stewart
And that was as true in 1951 as it is today. And I think we need to, you know, when we talk about national projects, a lot of those are really infrastructure based. Okay, that's great. But things like the arts and publishing and books are essential to constructing a national identity. And we were really good at doing that in the 1960s and 70s and into the 80s.
00:35:34:21 - 00:35:58:14
J.D.M. Stewart
And that's faded in recent decades. And I think if we really want to build a bulwark against American cultural imperialism, if you will, and you want to strengthen Canadian identity, you have to tell your own stories. And in a small country like Canada, where the market is a bit smaller, you do need a bit of government support for those artists to flourish.
00:35:58:14 - 00:36:29:13
J.D.M. Stewart
And I would encourage the government to be thinking about the arts and in particular books as as one of our cultural national projects, to to make Canada strong, as the Prime Minister says, and telling the national story is important. And speaking of prime ministers, it was RB Bennett who created what became the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in the early days, radio with CBC.
00:36:29:15 - 00:37:05:21
Erin O'Toole
So CBC is a component. Obviously, without getting too political, Canadian stories and Canadian culture is not just the CBC. So you're saying we need to look at at at books publishing sort of cultural sovereignty? Yes. As part of our, our social cohesion. If we're not telling our own stories, if we're not nurturing the next JDM Stewart, the next performer on stage at Stratford, if we're not capturing these things, we're just a loose collection of people who happen to be living near each other.
00:37:05:21 - 00:37:37:14
Erin O'Toole
And we're not we're not citizens of a shared journey together. Speak about that, because social cohesion, you know, that the tribalism we see on social media, can that be can that be calmed, or at least, you know, reduce somewhat if if students understood their country veteran, understood one another better through not just teaching of history and more, more history, but the writing, the plays, the television productions that tell the stories as well.
00:37:37:16 - 00:38:02:18
J.D.M. Stewart
I think it's really hard because of the the fracturing of those institutions that used to bind us together, CBC being one example, but certainly not the only one National Film Board being an institution. But it's hard because of the fracturing now, and there isn't the same consensus with among among anyone where we're not getting our news from all the same places.
00:38:02:18 - 00:38:22:10
J.D.M. Stewart
Even, you know, a lot of young people aren't really even, you know, reading the newspaper or getting they're getting their news from places like YouTube and such. But I think education is actually one of the important places where we can continue to put a marker down here. And so we should have some sort of education as a provincial responsibility.
00:38:22:10 - 00:38:49:23
J.D.M. Stewart
And so we should somehow, though, be talking about how we can be protecting Canadian culture, promoting it so that giving kids a sense of identity through the curriculum that they experience at school. So when I was a kid in high school, you know, I remember being introduced to Canadian literature and we all read Robertson Davies and we might have read Margaret Lawrence, maybe there was some Mordecai Richler, I don't know.
00:38:50:01 - 00:39:15:19
J.D.M. Stewart
And so I wonder how much Canadian novels are still being taught in, in Canadian high schools. And further to that, you know, there's there's also been a movement when Canadian writers are setting their books outside of Canada. And so it doesn't really feel like it's the Canadian experience when you're reading a book that's not set in, you know, Saint John's, Newfoundland or somewhere in Alberta.
00:39:15:19 - 00:39:53:02
J.D.M. Stewart
So we need to we need to be doing an audit of what's happening in in subjects like in the humanities. I think that's really important. And, and in science, one great example that we could all be capitalizing on is Jeremy Hanson going into space. And that's a great Canadian achievement. And I hope a lot of science teachers were were talking about Jeremy Hanson because, you know, we we have to we're in one of the you we're in a unique position as Canada where as they used to say on the on the CBC series Canada People's History, which, by the way, they won't show anymore because they think it's outdated.
00:39:53:02 - 00:40:16:01
J.D.M. Stewart
That's another story altogether. But they said geography is destiny, and there's no country like Canada where we share a language with the United States. Although let's not forget that we also have a sizable chunk of our population that is French speaking. But we share this language. So the and they're also they also happen to be the biggest manufacturer of cultural products in the world.
00:40:16:01 - 00:40:37:22
J.D.M. Stewart
So we're fighting against that. And we have to have an awakening that is there to remind us that we have our own identity in stories. But if you don't nurture them, they can disappear. And that was that's always been one of the threats to Canada. Ever since radio came in the 1920s. You spoke a bit about American cultural imperialism.
00:40:37:23 - 00:41:06:18
Erin O'Toole
You know, the most voracious and energetic cultural industries in Hollywood and Silicon Valley. And we're here trying to tell our own stories amid that flood of, of of product and information. A few summers ago, my daughter and I both read the book Station 11 by Canadian author Emily Saint John about a pandemic and then a Shakespearean arts group amidst the post-apocalyptic world.
00:41:06:18 - 00:41:32:10
Erin O'Toole
We loved the book because we based in Toronto, and it was amazing to read about streets and areas we knew. But then when we watched the Amazon Prime streaming version of the book, it was Chicago, right? So what can we do to make sure that our our Canadian storytellers, the creative people we create in this great country, tell the stories base from here and help tell the world who Canadians are.
00:41:32:12 - 00:41:56:23
Erin O'Toole
I, like you, think there's a role for government without impinging on freedom of speech, without curtailing creativity, but there's got to be a way that we can support people like yours. So your book is already in its second run because more people bought it than the publisher first anticipated. Tell me, are you seeing a bit of a resurgence in interest in Canadian history?
00:41:56:23 - 00:42:22:23
J.D.M. Stewart
Is there a bit of a, you know, time when we're we're worried about our future and identity that people are looking to the past? I think I think it's still an uphill battle, to be honest. And and that doesn't mean that you give up. I think you still have to fight in order to get Canadian history in the mainstream, or get people buying those books and understanding their history.
00:42:22:23 - 00:42:51:03
J.D.M. Stewart
But it's always, you know, I've been following this kind of story for 30 years. The fight to get Canadian history better understood, taught more in schools and supported from government. And we've made some progress for sure. And but definitely the, the the clashing with the United States right now has forced us at least to have a conversation about where we come from and what is our identity.
00:42:51:04 - 00:43:32:22
J.D.M. Stewart
But I wonder about the staying power of that. You know, people are talking about elbows up, and I haven't seen, like a resurgence of Canadian books on the bestseller lists. Part of that is systemic, because the whole publishing system has been turned upside down, and really only 5% of Canadian books are sold are by Canadians. So we need to I think we just need a little bit of the poke needs to come from the government in terms of reminding us that we actually have these things, and also to enable Canadian writers to be successful financially because it's it's a tough road, road to hoe.
00:43:32:23 - 00:43:58:19
J.D.M. Stewart
They're tough row to hoe. So there's, there's a little I'd say there's a glimmer of hope, but that the battle is still to be fought for quite a while because it's an uphill battle, as it has been for a long time. But we have to stay the course, and that's how I feel about it. Well, unless your your book is a fictional book about a gay hockey romance, heated rivalry, because they're actually all over the bestseller.
00:43:58:20 - 00:44:22:15
Erin O'Toole
My God, it's unbelievable, right? It's just from Halifax. Although shout out to my friend Jennifer Chevalier, who's a producer for CBC, to house her book the Winter, which made the a great historical fiction. New France isn't it like 17th century France? So there are these great stories being told. We just have to cultivate a little bit more. And I love that glimmer of hope.
00:44:22:16 - 00:44:48:20
Erin O'Toole
I'll take a glimmer of hope in this world, James, any day. So what do you have next on the agenda? You know, given you've written the Prime Minister, I'm assuming your next book is the opposition leaders.
00:44:48:20 - 00:45:08:11
J.D.M. Stewart
You know, I've I do have some book ideas and it's I have been trying to decide if I, if I write another book about prime ministers, I might get stamped as only a prime minister writer. And so I was considering a book about a gold medalist from the 1928 Olympics named Ethel Cather Wood, who was known as the most photographed woman at the Olympic Games. And then she kind of disappeared and became a recluse. So there could be a sports book, because it seems that sports books are ones that definitely sell on on the list.
00:45:08:11 - 00:45:29:11
J.D.M. Stewart
So. So we'll see. There's definitely going to be some some writing projects still coming from me, and I'm not going to I won't be turning my back on Canadian history because it's basically been the cause of my, my life. And on the back of my, I have little bookmarks that I give out with my book. And on the back is my favorite quotation from Wilfrid Laurier.
00:45:29:14 - 00:45:55:13
J.D.M. Stewart
And he said, Canada has been the inspiration of my life, and that's kind of how I've lived my life since I was in high school. I just had this awakening of Canadian patriotism and spent the all of my adult life advocating for and and and thinking about and teaching Canadian history. So that will always be in the mix for me as I move into the next phase of my professional career.
00:45:55:15 - 00:46:21:22
Erin O'Toole
Be first Canada, last Canada always I you're a great patriot JDM Stuart the great MK grad Jack Grannis wrote a book, Who Killed Canadian History? I think we should write one on who saved Canadian history. And I think your name is near the top, so thank you for this book. If you loved what we were talking about, check out the Prime Minister's JDM book.
00:46:21:23 - 00:46:52:07
Erin O'Toole
The second run is about to hit bookstores again because the books are in Halifax. We're tracking it. Support history, support this great country. And today, thank you, James for Blue Skies Canada and our Prime Ministers with us.
J.D.M. Stewart
Thank you. Erin, it's been a pleasure. Great conversation about the country and its history and I appreciate the opportunity.
00:46:52:07 - 00:47:08:06
Unknown
Well, in final seat all plant is maybe a book is needed on opposition leaders who win the popular vote but don't become prime minister. And it can be a book called almost. That's right. It happened. It happened a few times. It happens a few times. Well, listen, thank you. And we'll try and pick up more blue skies. Thank you for listening. Let me know your comments. Share this with a friend. I'm Erin O'Toole. Thanks for blue skiing this with us.