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Hosted by Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq. and Megan Hunter, MBA, It’s All Your Fault! High Conflict People explores the five types of people who can ruin your life—people with high conflict personalities and how they weave themselves into our lives in romance, at work, next door, at school, places of worship, and just about everywhere, causing chaos, exhaustion, and dread for everyone else.
They are the most difficult of difficult people — some would say they’re toxic. Without them, tv shows, movies, and the news would be boring, but who wants to live that way in your own life!
Have you ever wanted to know what drives them to act this way?
In the It’s All Your Fault podcast, we’ll take you behind the scenes to understand what’s happening in the brain and illuminates why we pick HCPs as life partners, why we hire them, and how we can handle interactions and relationships with them. We break down everything you ever wanted to know about people with the 5 high conflict personality types: narcissistic, borderline, histrionic, antisocial/sociopath, and paranoid.
And we’ll give you tips on how to spot them and how to deal with them.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to It's All Your Fault, unru Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those involving someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Hi everybody. We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California, where we focus on training, consulting, coaching, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
In today's episode, we're going to continue our discussion with our special guest, Amanda Smith from Hope for BPD. It is Mental Health Awareness Month and most importantly, or equally importantly, borderline Personality Disorder Awareness month. So in the last episode, we talked with Amanda about a lot of things regarding BPD, but primarily focused on the person who suffers with this disorder themselves. We spoke a little bit about families in that episode, but we're going to continue and focus more on families in this episode. But first, a couple of notes send your high conflict related questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast, where you'll also find all the show notes and links.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
All right, we're back with Amanda Smith. We're going to keep talking about BPD. We're going to switch our focus now a little bit to the family members of those with BPD and how important it is for families to develop an understanding which takes time. They've probably had the experience of maybe some not so happy times with this person and just not understanding. So I think the understanding comes over quite a long period of time and then learning how to do things differently and sometimes in a completely opposite manner of how we're used to interacting with others. Now you've written the wonderful Wellness planner for families, BPD, wellness Planner for Families, and I know it was important for you to write that so families have some support and information at the same time, so you want to tell us a little bit more about that?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I think that family support and education is crucial to the long-term success of individuals with a diagnosis of BPD. So I see a pretty big difference. Again, when I think about all of my clients, my clients who have a lot of family support, families are educated, families who have realistic expectations, family members who are again, recognizing that they're doing the best that they can, and so is the person in treatment. When people have that family support, when they've got someone on their side, I think it makes a huge difference. I think it's harder for my clients when they have burned a lot of bridges or relationships have just become really difficult or really painful and there aren't people around to learn how to validate or help that person. I think recovery becomes a lot more challenging for those individuals. So I'm in favor of family support, family education, families getting the tools that they need in order to make a difference.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
One question that's come up from our listeners is when there's multiple members of a family surrounding someone with BPD and they're dividing and splitting amongst each other and they're not getting on the same page even though they've committed to be on the same page and suddenly now this person's the bad guy and we're not talking to them anymore. Do you see that a lot? And if so, how can families avoid that?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I do see it unfortunately, and I think it's an obstacle. I think it's a really big obstacle for family members, and I think it's an obstacle when we think about healing and recovery for the person who is hurting. I know that everyone can't be on the same page at any given moment that that's probably not realistic. But if family members can begin to have a conversation where they can find a common ground and at least come up with a way to solve problems and support the individual, of course misunderstandings or disagreements are going to come up. But if we can find a way to at least eliminate some of those misunderstandings or disagreements, I think that makes a really big difference for people. And I want to recognize it's hard to do because again, not everyone's going to be on the same page or they're not going to have, they haven't read the same books or listened to the same podcasts or consulted with people who have an idea about how to solve a particular problem.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So how does your book help family members?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I believe in the power of education. So I think that reading a book really can make a huge difference. Another part of the wellness planner for family members is this focus on self-care. So self-care isn't just for the person going through treatment. Family members help themselves, and I believe also help the person with the diagnosis when they prioritize self-care. So I try to remind family members that they are role models for the person they love who's really hurting. So when my clients see family members who are prioritizing their physical health, their emotional health, their spiritual health, maybe their financial health, that makes a difference. It may not always be comfortable. It may not always be something the person with BPD embraces. However, I still think that it's important for family members to think about how they're taking care of themselves, living with someone. Being in a relationship with someone with BPD is stressful. It's confusing sometimes. There's lots of fear. People don't know what to do or say. That's why self, self-care is so important for family members. So education, and again, excellent self-care
Speaker 1 (07:20):
And excellent is absolutely key. So I know that many listeners have asked about their fear. You mentioned fear, and their fear holds them hostage from getting either the education and care they need or the education about their loved one, and so they're in fear of their loved one harming themselves, whether it's self-harm in form, maybe of cutting or something or suicide. We just have to say it out loud. It is part of this. So I guess there's probably not a magic wand for families to know how to deal with this, but what could you say to someone?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I think it's important, again, for family members to have a lot of good support and support from people who are nonjudgmental, people who are going to listen, people who aren't just going to jump in and give advice. One of the DBT skills is called COPE ahead, and the idea behind it is pretty simple. We know that if something has been problematic in the past, it may be problematic in the future. And when we think about people who are harming themselves or potentially harming other people, I think about how important it is to have a plan in place so we can think about physical safety. How do we want to prioritize physical safety, safety in the environment, relational safety? How do we want to prioritize that? What do we want to remember? What do we want to do if the person is threatening to harm themselves or the person's threatening to harm someone else?
Speaker 2 (09:10):
We can have a checklist. We can create a checklist of the things that we want to remember to do the things that we want to remember to say the things that we want to potentially watch out for when we're thinking about red flags and we're thinking about is this a moment where we want to call 9 1 1 or we want to get the therapist on the phone or we want to call in someone else to do an assessment? I think that having those plans and being ready, even if we never use those plans, is really important for family members. And you're right, it's hard to know what to do or say in the moment, especially when emotions are running really high. But if we can have that blueprint ready, if we can have that checklist ready of the things that we want to remember to do when things are breaking down or when there's a crisis or there's a particular event, then that can be something that really helps, again, not only family members, but also the individual who's really suffering.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Well, let's take a short break and we'll come right back.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Let me move to a different topic about this, which is self-help support groups, because you're talking about family and group and all being really important and potentially really good. I read an article recently and it got me thinking that with the internet today and social media, that people with mental health diagnoses are finding each other and to some extent forming a group that sees the rest of the world as the enemy and us as the insiders and us as victims. In a sense, there's a reinforcement of being a victim of your diagnosis rather than getting support to change. And I think you said early on change is one of the big goals, and I'm wondering your thoughts about that, if you hear about that or if this is a big problem or a little problem or not really a problem.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I definitely know that it exists. I think it is problematic. I think it's especially problematic when we think about TikTok and we think about this contagion that often with video. So someone talking about their symptoms or talking about their experience all by itself can be very positive. And you're right, it can be a way for people to feel connected, for people to feel understood, for people to share education, education. All of those things are really positive, and I would want to encourage those things. And then you're correct, there are sometimes people reinforcing the very behaviors. We want people to be thinking about the things that we want people to change about themselves or in their relationships. And you're right, when we think about these online virtual relationships, some of those behaviors are actually being reinforced or sometimes messages are being shared that, well, we really don't want people, especially vulnerable people who are already hurting, exposed to those messages.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
When I think about my clients who are sometimes very fixated on blaming parents or blaming partners or spouses, I want to know where in the world is that message coming from? And then we start the conversation about how, yeah, it can be really nice to vent occasionally, but we don't want to stay in this place where we just keep blaming and blaming and blaming and talking about other people. But that's not a part of recovery. It's not a part of healing. It's not a part of wellness, emotional wellness, staying connected to that message that someone else is to blame for my unhappiness, or people with a diagnosis of BPD don't really get better. They just manage their symptoms and then the person stays really discouraged. I hate it when that happens, and I don't like that message. I don't think that it helps people. So yes, what you're describing is absolutely something that is a reality for a lot of people trying to understand themselves, but also understand other people in their lives.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Thank you for that answer. I really like that. And yeah, I think if people understand that they can get bad messages and where to get good messages, that's the key. Like a therapy group and a good trained therapist.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Well, we've had an amazing conversation, Amanda, so many words of wisdom and valuable nuggets for people, because frankly, not a lot of people really have the depth or understanding a lot of depth or understanding about BPD. So it's so helpful when you give in this way to take some time and share your expertise and experience and wisdom with us. Now, I'm not going to let you go until we talk about something that is across social media. It's in tv, movies, in conversations, and it's to do with gaslighting. You and I had a conversation a year or so ago about this, and you said we should talk about that sometimes. So I'm really curious to hear what you think about this whole concept of gaslighting and how it's taken off. It's like a fuse that's been lit in a little bit of a there. So what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Oh, I think that the term is something that is really problematic for a lot of different reasons. I started hearing this term, this word from my clients and the way they were using the term gaslighting. I just remember thinking, I dunno that the person is using it in the way that is accurate, that is truthful. So we talk a lot in DBT about how we can't really know what someone else's intentions are. So when someone says something or does something that hurts our feelings or there's some kind of misunderstanding that is not gaslighting, that is not people intentionally trying to hurt other people by doing something or saying something. But it seems like my clients a lot of the time have used the term gaslighting in that way. And of course, that's not what it's, so I think it's important to recognize that being invalidated honestly is a part of life.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
I'll even say that it's probably a pretty normal part of life, especially for people who are emotionally sensitive. But that doesn't mean that people are intentionally trying to hurt or confused or mislead the person who is saying, oh, this person's gaslighting me, or that's their intention one, again, we can't necessarily know that. And two, when it comes up in my office, my clients will often say, mom and dad are trying to do that, or A dear friend is trying to do that. And then I think, no, that person's probably, again, this person loves you. They're not trying to create harm, they're not trying to hurt you in this moment, but boy, is it an emotionally charged term that again, people seem to really gravitate toward. And again, for the most part, I don't think that it's accurate. It's something that's
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Happening in most relationships most of the time. Well, excellent. Thank you for clearing that up for us, and we finally got to have the conversation about it. So thank you so much, Amanda for joining us on this episode. I know it's going to be very helpful to our listeners and for years to come. And we'll put your link to your website, hope for BPD in the show notes and links and links to the books, both of your books as well, and some links to other resources here in BPD Awareness Month and Mental Health Awareness. So all of that will be in there.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
This is going to do it for our Bring It to Life series for now. Anyway, we'll have another bring it to Life series later. But next we're going to start a new series called Our World of Adult Bullies, starting with a couple of concerning trends involving young women that we've been observing women in their twenties and thirties, mainly one of these being an increase in bullying on social media and just even bullying in person. So we have some recent examples in the news that we can talk about. So we hope you'll listen in. Please send your questions to podcast@iconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. We'd love it if you tell your friends and colleagues about us, and we'd be very grateful if you'd leave us a review. Until next time, keep learning and practicing your skills, be kind to yourself and to others while we all try, keep the conflict.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
It's
Speaker 1 (19:39):
All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True Story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.