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The Sum of All Wisdom is built on a simple idea: music IS the sum of all wisdom.
More than a podcast, The Sum of All Wisdom is a community and resource platform dedicated to exploring music as a way of knowing. Music is humanity's oldest way of knowing and one of our best technologies for making meaning, and through long-form conversations with musicians, producers, writers, and cultural thinkers—along with performances, essays, and educational resources—we investigate the creative life and what it teaches us about memory, identity, creativity, community, and the human condition.
Whether you're a musician, artist, scholar, or simply someone who loves music and believes it matters, The Sum of All Wisdom is an invitation to listen more deeply: to great music, to the people who make it, and to the wisdom gained through a life devoted to music and musical worlds.
Because music is more than entertainment. It is one of humanity's most ancient ways of understanding the universe and our place in it.
Scott Catey (00:00)
Thought we'd might start with just a sort of who are you? The basics. Where'd you come from? How'd you get into drums? What it was I think it was early for you, and you were playing in nightclubs by the time you were seventeen. So there's a there's a feels like a very I don't know what the word is. Like you got right on it as a young guy.
Butch Norton (00:21)
I did. I'm
sixty eight, born in nineteen fifty eight. so obviously I was banging on suitcases, pots, and pans at five years old. And then like everybody of my generation, my age, who was banging on things, on Sunday night, Ed Sullivan, the Beatles, Ringo.
That was it. I've been playing since I was five years old, much to the sh not chagrin, but just amazement at where did this come from? How no one in my family played a musical instrument. my mom was creative artistically, but
Up until probably I'm sixty eight, so probably up until sixty seven and a half, they finally have accepted that I am a drummer percussionist and that this thing's gonna work out, I guess.
Scott Catey (01:26)
And there's no looking back.
Butch Norton (01:28)
No, well, there is a lot of looking back. There's a ton of looking back all the time. yeah, no. I yeah, so I started, you know, back when in grade school they still had orchestras and band and choir. I went to public school in the I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area in the sixties and seventies, amazing time. And
Third grade I started I got in the the orchestra at school where you were given the Mel Bay books, how to you know do a roll And my teacher, Mr. Eichhorn was Ju Julius Julius Eichhorn yeah, who drove a he drove a citron. And
the most amazing car in the world. And he he he was a clarinet player, right? So he had to tr try it, you know, in those days, whoever was the the the guy at school that did run the music program had to play every instrument, you know, and th show you how to how to do it. So I started third grade, got in the and and did that, went there was a choir, I joined that. I was in my parents took me
Scott Catey (02:37)
Yeah, right.
Butch Norton (02:50)
Or it didn't take me. They dropped me off at Episcopal Church when I was a kid because that's what you did while my mom went shopping. My dad was tanning himself. And so I got in the choir at church and had some of that. And high school had a great band teacher, John Rando, at Burlingham High School. I did all the theater choir, in amongst me playing lots of sports until I
hyper extended my right knee in my junior year and said I'm gonna be a drummer not a football player so so yeah very much so because I'm a big guy and they wanted me to be on the in the D on the defense and yeah I said no I'm gonna play drums and my coach just flipped out he just what? Okay. and then
Scott Catey (03:22)
Happy accident, right?
Butch Norton (03:43)
Yeah, started playing professionally at about fifteen, got in the union, local what's of San Francisco, local six? I can't remember now. and started playing v grad nights and proms and things with this eight piece hornband I was in in the Bay Area, played all the top forty rock. Was a great way to
Cut your teeth and we worked a lot and then turned 18 and started playing bars and clubs six nights a week, four and a half hours a night, nine to one thirty, doing that, which is no that world is gone now. Yeah. but it was great learning then and then that event there's something I hit twenty one and I said there's something more than just drum set.
Scott Catey (04:28)
Mm, it sure is.
Butch Norton (04:40)
There's I d I know there's other stuff and I had been hearing about it. I'd I'd seen percu I'd I had dabbled in a couple of things, but then I found this place, California Institute of the Arts, here in LA, out in Valencia, Walt Disney School. there was one other degree granting institution of its kind that was strictly for the arts. I think that's Interlochen er
Something like that, but CalArts was the one on the West Coast and got down here, got accepted and studied five years with John Bergamo, my mentor, and didn't play drum set for five years, went deep into percussion. And then met my wife. w we're 43 years together. We met at school and
Here I am, professional touring recording musician in LA with a bunch of stuff that finally started happening around ninety eighty nine, what when the professional career of what I was trying to achieve started to happen.
Scott Catey (05:47)
Mm-hmm. And that was right off the bat. you're touring, you're touring with
Butch Norton (05:52)
I I was working with a duo Lowen and Navarro, Dan Navarro, Eric Lowen. They had just written in nineteen eighty seven a song called We Belong for this little artist known as Pat Benatar. And
then they parlayed that into a a duo career on triple A radio at the time, singer-songwriter stuff, 89 to about 94. and so I auditioned and got the gig with them and got that was my first time. Five of us got in a record company van and went to their markets in Chicago, DC. and that was the beginning of
Wow, okay. Loved it and it was intense.
It was a great it great time. And that was that was the beginning. And then from that, I left Lowen in Navarro and was playing with a bass player, David Sutton, in a in another band, and he met this guy. He was rehearsing with this guy, E, who had a solo record, an another triple A. At the end of the AAA
Scott Catey (06:56)
Mm.
Butch Norton (07:02)
Time, it's 93. And I auditioned and got that gig for the E's last solo record, Broken Toy Shop. And we were getting ready to go on the road, and the record company dropped 25 acts. E was one of them, and they said, Have a nice summer. And we went home in depression, never got to tour that record, but then out of that came E locked in his basement.
And came up with the Beautiful Freak record. He put all on ADATs and he sent that to me and said, What do you think about this? And that's when the Eels he and I started the Eels.
Scott Catey (07:41)
So his demos coming out of his basement that he sent to you, it was him and the guitar and just the melodies or and what how did how did you guys put that together?
Butch Norton (07:47)
No. No, he was
he was he was fully producing these tracks. the the the record was all pretty much done when he sent it to me. And those adats that we put into Pro Tools and mixed with Mike Simpson from the Dust Brothers, a lot of it.
And we recut maybe three or four of the songs on that first record, but he he had had those tracks done.
Scott Catey (08:23)
Pretty interesting. And then so that was the first record for the Eels. The second record that came out, Electroshock Blues. Great record. That's of the Eels catalog, I think that's my favorite. Hospital Food knocks me out every time.
Butch Norton (08:24)
Yeah.
L Electroshock Blues.
We the the drum track and it the conversation you if you if you listen to it really quickly is me recording that drum track with three mics in E's basement in Echo Park during the Beautiful Freak years. So that he held on to that track until we got to Electroshock Blues and yeah.
Scott Catey (09:07)
That's a I mean, that that's a really productive of I mean, in terms of production of creating this record, that's a really interesting sort of set of dynamics, right? This the the you guys interacting together like that.
Butch Norton (09:19)
Well yes. Yes. Ver very much so. He's a he's a persnickety guy and everything is scrutinized and goes goes through his vision. That's what that was all about.
Scott Catey (09:26)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
How do you as a
What's my question here? I w I wanna what do you think of yourself as, Butch? Are you a support for the for artists like E and Lucinda Williams and others? Are you a a band member? Are you a sideman? How do you how do you characterize yourself in these circumstances?
Butch Norton (10:00)
Very good question. I I everything I do is to be of service with with what what and who I bring I am and what I bring. what you know what what do you need, what what do you need from me? what can I what can I do to
make this project, this music, this situation, the best that it can be, utilizing my ideas and my abilities. that's it's funny you asked that question because Tommy, the bass player in the Eels, who we fired after the Beautiful Freak record, his thing was we're a band. We're a band. And it's like, well no, the this is E's
Baby. We joined because of our abilities and and personalities and talents here. And yes, we we are technically a band, but we didn't grow up as a band. He never could understand that. And he he was always frustrated that we wouldn't as time right after the as things started going, Tommy and I E pushed us into the background.
and only did the interviews. He was the and I was fine with that. That this is his and Tommy just could not, you know, why is he getting the attention? Why and it's like, dude, like that's not what this is. with Lucinda, with you know who whoever. you know, I there was a time where after this second Lucinda record I did
Actually actually after the first Little Honey, we were in the studio at The Village here in LA working for about a t a month and a half on this record, Little Honey. And Lucinda notoriously would not show up until six, seven, eight o'clock at night. And we would be there in the afternoons ready to work. And so we would start
Playing the band the musicians, Doug, David and myself,
we would improvise and and jam. And the Lucinda's husband manager heard what came in early one day and heard us doing these instrumentals. He said, You guys should make your own record. So when we had time during the day, we made our own record. We called the band Buick Six.
And we became Lucinda's opening band, Lucinda Williams and Buick Six. And she allowed us to we opened for her for about three years and we did about three records. It was amazing. So there was this band inside. So we got to play, do 30 minutes every night opening for her, so we'd be all warmed up and then we would be her, you know, do her show. Yeah. It was very awesome.
Scott Catey (13:10)
band, yeah. That's pretty awesome.
It's gotta be unique in the sort of annals of rock and roll for that sort of thing to happen.
Butch Norton (13:19)
Yeah, I'm sure it has I'm I'm sure it it has happened. I don't know if there's an entity it's it was it was a great idea and we made our own C Ds and her fans bought lots of those C Ds. It was it was a nice little extra side cash on the road during those times.
Scott Catey (13:44)
How so musically is the vibe similar to her work or what were you guys up to with Buick Six?
Butch Norton (13:50)
No,
no, it was instrumental. yeah, it was all instrumental. you can you can find Buick Six records on the Spotify and all that. much more kind of groove oriented, not as not so much not song oriented, which was nice, a nice
for us to open instrumentally and do these kind of rock funk soulish type of instrumental songs and then Lu comes up with the Americana singer songwriter, you know, that she's that's her thing.
Scott Catey (14:32)
Good marriage though, right? Between your vibe and
Butch Norton (14:34)
it was great.
Yeah, it was great. And then and then that ran its course and now it's just Lucinda Williams and her band and the guys in the band and all that.
Scott Catey (14:45)
And it's still you guys.
Butch Norton (14:47)
Not me. I left two years ago. Yeah, I had my we were we were on tour, my left hip was bone on bone. I was in excruciating pain. Thankfully it was my left hip, my hi-hat hip. So it I could it was it was doable, and we were
Scott Catey (14:50)
No, did you, I see.
Butch Norton (15:13)
In Europe in January, February, we were in the UK at the coldest time of the year, grayest. I'm in pain. We're at Abbey Road Studios recording in Studio Two. Lucinda sings the Beatles for three days, and then we went on tour. and and I said after the tour, I need to take a break, I gotta get my hip fixed, and it was the right time. I 17 straight years recording and touring with her since 2007.
up to 2024. So got the hip done, took care of dad, went on an adult vacation with Mrs. Butch, which we hadn't done in twelve years. so and then I it was just, yeah. the they they got a great replacement, Brady Blade, that the machine was moving well on and we both said, yeah, great, I'm gonna move on. So that's what we did.
Scott Catey (16:08)
I wanna know about the hip, Butch. What how are you doing with that?
Butch Norton (16:11)
fantastic. yeah.
Scott Catey (16:14)
Replacement.
Butch Norton (16:15)
Yes, replacement. yeah. W with the an anterior went in the front, which is the latest thing. I was I checked out a number of surgeons, found a great surgeon that was right for me, had worked with other musicians and knew about my my drumming. and I was
Six weeks after the surgery, I was playing again. Pain free. I don't know. I I talked to so many guys and gals who had bone on bone, and they said, yeah, I've had it for about three years. And I'm like, I I had it for a month and a half. And I was like, How could you go three years with that pain? No. No.
Scott Catey (17:08)
D did it come from Drummond? You said it was your hi hat leg. Is it because of
Butch Norton (17:12)
Yeah.
No. I mean my genetics also. My mom my mom had both her hips and knees replaced. I'm knocking on wood, that's I just w have one hip, let's just stay with that. Yeah, but I I I you know, I do Pilates, I walk, I s we just
Scott Catey (17:31)
Yeah, right.
Butch Norton (17:38)
put a po in ground pool here at the house so I'm swimming every day. I I I go the extra mile at my stage of my I wanna k I wanna keep going until I die on the the drum set, okay? That's how it's gonna happen.
Scott Catey (17:54)
Yeah.
I like that. The swimming is so good for all every muscle group, right? So let me circle back on a little bit on your I guess your upbringing. You s in s in San Francisco you studied with some pretty well known percussionists of the era, right?
Butch Norton (18:12)
Anthony Cerone and Charles Dowd, and and a number of their proteges at that time. And there was a guy by the name of Scott Morris, who was an amazing drum set player, played with Benny Goodman. yeah.
Scott Catey (18:30)
Remarkable. How did you get hooked up with these guys?
Butch Norton (18:31)
Mm-hmm.
searched them out. Hey, I want to study. was Scott Mor it started with Scott Morris and and his a friend of his, Jim Spelman. in the Bay Area at the time, San Jose State University was had a a great reputation for percussion.
And Anthony Cerone was on the was the head professor. He was the tympanist in the San Francisco Symphony. and so I met him via a summer program at Notre Dame High School. They would have an arts a music camp two weeks, and one summer I went and Anthony Cerone was head of the percussion.
Charles Dowd, who wrote this very well known book called The Funky Primer for drum set players in the 70s. All of us studied out of that book, along with the the Ted Reed, syncopation and all the basic books. But for drum set, that he that was the funky primer was at that time the the Bible. And I was way into David Garibaldi, Tower of Power, and in the Bay Area, all the funk and soul.
So I was I was playing a lot of that. so the summer I go to the music camp and I study with I take private lessons with Anthony and with Charles Dowd. and and Anthony Cerone wrote this book called Portraits in Rhythm, a snare drum etude book.
Scott Catey (20:20)
It's a great title.
Snare drum etudes. You just don't think of snare drums as an atude instrument, right?
Butch Norton (20:22)
Yes.
yeah, well, in Percussion World, this was the Bible for snare drum etudes. it came out, I think it in the mid-sixties is when it first came out. And it was you if you were going to do snare drum, you learned this book. I went through a couple of the first etudes with Jim Spellman, who had studied with Cerone when he was younger. so I went
Th the so this the the funny part of the story, not funny really, but kind of funny. I my first lesson with Anthony Cerone he says I I go, I bring the portraits in rhythm and he goes, great, you've been studying my book. I said, of course, yes, I've been playing. And he goes, Great, let's start with etude Number One. So we open the book, put etude number one, one, two, three, I think it's it. He stops me after two bars.
And goes, No. No. We spent a week and a half on two bars. Two two bars that I never was able to get. Yeah. And Anthony saw he said, you're a rock drummer. I said, Yeah, I yeah, a rock drummer. I've I've played an orchestra, you know, in school, and I did in high school, and and he goes, Yeah, okay. So, you know, he he
He got it. And then and then he said, Well let's try some mallet stuff. There's just two two mallets, let's go over to the Marimba. And I could do some scales and we did some beginning very simple Bach which I which I no, which no, not really. Not so much. But then at the same time I now I'm while I'm doing this this summer, I'm working
at night with my my pop my pop rock band in in the bars. So so I was not I was not a good student. I was not and I went and and I soaked as much as I could in, but I also took this class on cymbals on the piatti from this eighty-five year old San Francisco Symphony legend, Joe Sinai
Scott Catey (22:28)
Mm-hmm.
Butch Norton (22:51)
And his class was at eight thirty in the morning. yeah, work until two thirty and you know, then going to Denny's and at three thirty and yeah, doing that and doing other extracurricular things at that time. I I I I caught a couple classes, I got some techniques, and then at the end of the two weeks there's a concert.
Scott Catey (22:54)
It's hard to get to after playing in the clubs.
Butch Norton (23:18)
Right? It's the culmination of the two weeks. And they said, Butch, you're gonna play the cymbals for this famous Tchaikovsky piece. And I'm like, Okay, great, sure. And this the piece is is is a it's a master class in cymbal piatti The you have suspended cymbals, you have two or three different sizes of of the piatti of the crash cymbals and it's super technical.
And so I we do the concert and at the end of the performance, I'm outside my mom is there and and Anthony Cerone comes up and I go, mom, this is Anthony Cerone. And and Anthony goes, hey, your son, you know, I I I see a bright future for him in in playing, you know, drum set and doing rock music. And my mom goes, thank you, you know, Butch had a great time here. All of a sudden, from across the room
Joe Sinai comes running in screaming, you can never play cymbals again. You murdered that. You should never touch cymbals. Never, ever. Don't you ever come near cymbals, don't ever see me. And Anthony Cerone stops Joe and says, Joe, Joe, Joe, whoa. Little Italian guy. He goes, Yeah, yeah, Butch, Butch, Butch kind of mangled that piece, but it wasn't it wasn't horrible. He goes, No!
That was horrible. and my mom's standing there and and Anthony goes, Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe, let's let's take a deep breath here. This is Butch's mom. And you know, Butch is is going to follow a different path. You know, he's a drum step player, plays rock and pop, and he's gonna take a different Joe goes, he walked away disgusted. That and that was my end of my summer camp that year.
Scott Catey (25:11)
Your classical training, as it were.
Butch Norton (25:15)
Yes. but then two years later I went and auditioned at California Institute the Arts and I asked Anthony Cerone if he would write a recommendation letter and he said of course and he wrote a very very simple, very nice, you know, very nice letter that helped get me to CalArts where where I in the youth orchestra I was the tympanist.
And Cesare Pascarella was the conductor and I it was great. I learned a lot. I really I really worked on that on the timpani.
Scott Catey (25:55)
What was the audition like
for CalArts, Butch? What did they have you do?
Butch Norton (25:59)
Well, CalArts is a degree granting institute that was Walt Disney's dream to put together. He took the LA Conservatory and the Chouinard Art Institute and combined them and moved them out to Valencia in 1970, built this Beautiful campus with that's just theater, animation, dance, music, visual arts,
Scott Catey (26:04)
Mm.
Butch Norton (26:24)
Critical studies, which is writing, is all the arts, and that's all you did. Yeah, and you got pass, high pass, or fail for classes. And it was about working with other artists. It was magical time. I was in the percussion program, and like I said, I stopped playing kit for about five years. I went deep into percussion, improvisation, Indian music. I studied tablas for about two years, African music, Balinese, Javanese.
And I mo worked mostly with movement, with dancers, a lot, which I still do to this day. and that's how I met my wife. We wrote some pieces together. She's a classical pianist composer at the time. and yeah, which which all of that improvisation with movement and dance is has you know shaped my crazy percussion world. And John Bergamo.
with the new music John Cage and the Harry Partch and the found sound. he really exploded my mind about, you know, everything is any sound is can be utilized as a as a as a a source, an instrument and how do you tame it? How do you put it somewhere? How do you make it work? And that's been a a lifelong journey for me.
Scott Catey (27:27)
Yeah, yeah.
I think this trajectory of Partch and Cage and Bergamo and you, right? I talked to Jeff Tripoli recently, you know, who's he talks about you as his mentor. And part of the c the the interesting part of that conversation and and what I'm hearing from you, Butch, not the only interesting part, but one of the interesting parts is this legacy of learning and the transmission of ideas across generations. I think that's really, I don't know. It it just strikes me as
Something really unique to musicians to pass along that kind of thing and to to think outside of those boxes like Partch did and Cage did and you do. And then passing that along to someone like Jeff who has grown, it seems to me, really a lot in the years that he's known you. I think that strikes me as a really compelling piece of what it is that this is all about.
Butch Norton (28:42)
It is. Well, it is what it is all about and what you're doing and you know introducing me to to people that are not aware of this. and and you know this this this is what was passed on to me. So now I'm passing it on and Jeff will pass it on. you know, whatever endeavor you're in, you should be doing that.
That's how I've always viewed, you know.
Scott Catey (29:12)
Right. Yeah. Working with
others, right? This thing you s the you were trained to do at CalArts, working with other artists. That's and that's what you did with with E and and the the guys at Eels. And that's what you did with Lucinda and and the rest of them. This is sort of a a consistent through line that I hear from you. It's like working with others is really important, right? So what does that entail? Listening for one thing, right?
Butch Norton (29:32)
Yes.
Lots of listening, lots of shutting up, lots of deciphering, lots of yeah, communicating and throwing throwing things back and forth and and taking your ego out of things and you know experimenting, failing, and then d when that happens.
Something magical it always happens. Something magically pops up that you're like, I gonna use that. Okay.
Scott Catey (30:11)
Yeah. Didn't plan on it. Didn't see that coming. But god damn it, that worked. Yeah. You know, failure, f it's funny that you say that. This is somehow turned into a theme for several of my episodes, right? It's like I told a guy recently, it's like I don't wanna fail, but fuck, I learn a lot when I do. And it happens more than I'd like to admit, probably, but I you know, that's okay.
Butch Norton (30:14)
Yep, right. Yeah.
It it's it is okay. I mean talking you're talking to anybody, they're all everybody's got the failures and it's it's how you come out of that and and and how you handle it in the moment and and don't and don't go off and shut shut down. That's the thing. Don't no no
Scott Catey (30:43)
That's right.
Mm.
The ego part, right?
You gotta keep the ego out of it.
Butch Norton (30:59)
Yeah, and and just you know, and and be re understand that shut up, you're not the only one that's had this fucking problem, okay? Everybody's got these come on. Geez, look look at the world. Let's go, people.
Scott Catey (31:13)
Yeah, exactly.
I want to hear you talk more about this fascinates me, Butch. I gotta tell you, reading the the the bio content and some of the other things that are on your website, your work with with body movement. It it I mean, it I can see there's a natural relationship between rhythm and movement, obviously, right? And the way that we breathe and the way that the heart beats and the way that we walk and all these things. But the relationship that you seem to to really participate in is, I don't know, it's richer than just, yes, there's a a a cadence to the way we walk. Tell me.
Tell me how you get into doing your work with in terms of body movement.
Butch Norton (31:53)
Well, it it started at CalArts. Well no, it started before that. It it started from the beginning, really, if I think about it. I mean to me a drummer from when I first started playing drum sets, seeing people in a room and you start playing a song
And they start moving. And I recognized body movement. And and I recognized the the the James Brown and the and then the you know Beatles, yes, but the soul, the the black soul music and the and the African rhythms and how this connected and jazz. Jazz I I've had a fascination with, but not so much to play or be a part of because
It's it's all for me the avant garde, the bebop, there's there's it's it's all the movement is not steady. I go towards more African, solid a groove. always been about the groove and setting down a groove and s getting people to move, right? then I got the CalArts.
Scott Catey (33:11)
Mm.
Butch Norton (33:15)
And from dance drumming and pop stuff and getting people in clubs that get up and they start dancing, that I would lock into. Now I go to CalArts, I'm not doing drum set anymore. Now I'm accompanying modern dance classes. And that became like whoa. I first sat in on a modern dance class and the you know the dancer instructor is now doing combinations with the dancers across the floor.
Right, first you have a warm-up, they do stretching, and you improvise and lay down a a a groove that the dancer will start, a tempo that they can move to, and you said boom, go back it, good boom, go back it. And you do that for about 20 minutes and you don't change. You lock into that pattern, that rhythm to give them something that doesn't doesn't change and so that they're not
body isn't jerking. There's a certain kind of smoothness, a conne a connection. So I started realizing that. And then the next part of the class is they do combinations, like the dancers will go across doing arabesques and jumps and things, and the the instructor choreographs this to help their technique, right? And those things are like, okay, one, two, three, four, five, one, two, one, two, three.
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, one, two, three, four, five. One, two, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, one, two, three, four, five. And you would do that while the dancers learned the combinations, that little dance, and they would go in groups, they would go across the floor, and then boom, we'd move on to the next the next instruction, the next piece for them to learn their technique. And so
I started learning how to put combinations now of different meters and different time signatures. There's no rules and how do you connect the p the percussion, the the the the groove with and help the dancers would jump and you would do a a a cymbal at the jump and you would okay, so now I'm composing helping giving them cues with drumming with my instruments.
The next piece would be okay, everything's in five now. One, two, two, four, five, one, two, two, four, five. Then we would do elevens. We would do you know, it was amazing. And and I'm still forty three years later, I'm still next week I'm my one of my close friends that is from college, we still do modern dance classes together.
Scott Catey (36:02)
It sounds very organic,
right? So there's there's a real relationship, a sort of DNA between you and the dancers as these things as you change, they change kind of thing.
Butch Norton (36:14)
Yes.
and then all at the same time comes back to me being of service. You know, you know, I'm there and the there's a dynamic, you know, you can't just flail and y you have to rein in your dynamics, you have to have the right you know, the teacher will once in a while say, let's slow this down a little bit. And it's like, okay, okay, yeah, I see.
the movements, we're moving pushing them a little too hard, or now pick up the pace, we need to pick this up. You know, you're aga again you're there to be of service.
Scott Catey (36:49)
Tell me well tell us, tell people who are listening to this episode, Butch, counting elevens, how does and dancing elevens, how does that work?
Butch Norton (36:59)
You have to see the movement. You know, it's it's usually an eleven will be a a a three and an eight or a five and a six, you know, that what you know, the the the their teacher will go, okay, right, left, right, left, left, right, left, right, left, right, and and then but then on top with their their body, they they're turning, they're moving, and you're watching this, and so and every time you go through the combination, you pick up a little more.
of okay, well how can I help accompany this movement to help them get their movement quicker and how how are this gonna is it gonna feel right for them?
common is six and five, right? One, two, two, four, five, one, two, three, four five, one, two, two, book, pop, one, two, three, four, five. Eight eight and three is a common one too. It it it that the beauty of it, it changes every time. And so you you have to be and thankfully for all the many years and working with my buddy Ray, he and I are like this. So
We think the same and we know where we're going intuitively.
Scott Catey (38:08)
so I wonder, Butch, the so this is modern dance, you're working directly with dancers specifically. When you're when you're touring with Lucinda, for instance, and you're rock and roll drumming basically, or Americana drumming. Are you how what's the relationship between you and folks who are dancing in that kind of setting?
Butch Norton (38:32)
It's the same. I'm I am I'm all I'm thinking about is well, with Lucinda with the singer songwriter, I I am going off the cadence for her of her voice and her lyrics. It's about her lyrics.
the the drummer before me, Don Heffington, I went into the gig and he had a s a a monitor system. He had her guitar in one monitor and her voice in another monitor. Right? So he had them separated. And I the first couple gigs, I was like, wait, where do I follow? Because her guitar playing is not in time with her singing, which is the
was the beauty of Lu She can't play guitar anymore after stroke. But the beauty of it was this weird where she just had this pocket that was wild. I had to turn off her guitar for me to be sit in the right pocket with her songs. It was the time to play with accompanying was her voice. So that was the first step. And then then as as usual it was like I
I feel the audience. I'm looking out at the audience. I'm seeing where we're moving. If it's a ballad if they're not moving, that's good. They're getting deep into the song. you know, a million a million synapses are going off and and all these things in the computer of of Butch Head is trying to you know keep it steady and and with a singer-songwriter, and then and then
Which applies to the modern dance and then also this weekend I accompany yoga classes, which is a whole different kind of thing.
Scott Catey (40:34)
That's really interesting.
Tell me more about that.
How do you accompany a
yoga class?
Butch Norton (40:38)
It's it's all about vibe. I work with a couple teachers, one in particular Joe Cara, who I've worked with for many, many years. you know, there's an ebb and a flow. It starts off with quiet breathing, and we open up with just bowls and long metal sounds and and light sounds. This is this is how it's constructed.
And then he will do he'll do four ohms with the with the class, and that's the beginning of movement, and we strike a gong, and then we go into just soft groove, soft groove while he goes through the the movements and the stretching. And then I know when to when they're coming back into into down dog.
They're taking a breath, they're gonna take a break, so we close, and then he starts the next movement and I start a pattern or a groove and it goes like that. It's it's an hour and a half class. And I've been doing yoga these yoga classes for about thirty years.
Scott Catey (41:56)
Fascinating. the ethos of the of the the yoga and I I mean it's broader than yoga, but that that sense of put away the ego and right, sort of don't worry about borders and don't worry about f formulas, that sort of thing, right? This idea of being in the world and being of the world and being accepting of the world as it comes to you seems to be
Like it's not just a yoga thing. This is kind of what I'm seeing on your website and what you're what you're telling me about your your own evolution as a percussionist. And that seems to me like a really it's all s you know, you you you are explicit to some of this on your website with the the ideas that you hold to be important, right? Your I don't wanna call them mantras. I don't want to put that word in your mouth, Butch, but I I I read them as very important pieces of, let's say, wisdom that you put out there for what you believe in. I think it's
for me it's really lovely.
Butch Norton (42:54)
are have you been on the YouTube playlist, the Butch Musings?
Scott Catey (43:00)
I have seen your bunker materials, but I don't think I've seen your musings yet, Butch.
Butch Norton (43:04)
Okay. well I have a list I started this after the pandemic. I have a list of about a hundred and and it grows every couple of weeks I'll meet a new drummer, about a hundred and twenty drummers all over the world who I've run into, become friends with, and I started this thing which was an offshoot of creative ideas from the Butch Bunker.
Scott Catey (43:05)
Give me a musing. Tell me what a musing looks like.
Mm-hmm.
Butch Norton (43:30)
which
is a playlist on my YouTube channel. It has over about five hundred and fifty videos that I did mostly in my mom's living room during the pandemic when she had just had surgery and I would go down to San Diego and I would bring a a pile of stuff and I would improvise in her living room, which she loved recuperating in in her family room. So I st and I came up with all these wild improvisational
Minute and a half things with different different instruments and stuff. so so the Butch Musings after the pandemic, I started writing, I started doing
Stuff out of the Butch Bunker, playing different things and then musing and then I would write, and it's there on if you if you look in the description, I have thoughts. Butch has many thoughts. And so they're not all about drumming. It's not all about drumming, but it's me sh kind of jumping off of the drumming and talking about life stuff and
ideas and and why why I came up with why I did what I just did. Here's my description of why I did what I just did and how maybe you can apply that and so that's the it's Butch Musings. Yeah, I put I put out every week or so, every week and a half.
Scott Catey (44:54)
I'll definitely link that in the show notes, Butch. but tell me what's your favorite? Do you have a favorite? What's what's the kind of idea that you love to talk about for a musing?
Butch Norton (45:06)
well central I think theme for me is I will I will find a song or some music that inspires me. And it's usually and a lot of it is stuff that I'm not you normally don't hear. I like to find the odd and and obscure. a lot of many many of the musings are things you would not think Butch would play.
And then I and then for me, I come up with my own ideas playing, which are not necessarily the ideas that are on the original music. And I and for me, the the crux of this is me saying, you know, great, learn the part of the song, or learn if if you need to learn this, but then go beyond that and put your own spin on it, do something that's
completely different than what is the original and make it work. That that's really mostly my message is is you know make you know find other things within this that you can you can create from.
Scott Catey (46:17)
That's pretty inspirational, I think, f for damn near anybody who's, you know, maybe stuck in the idea of what am I doing here? How do I do this? How do I how do I grow? I'm bored, I don't know how to practice differently. All these questions that we come up against as musicians who are, you know, in the world and and, you know, maybe hitting some kind of block or obstacle or other thing that we let get in our way, right? So lightning strike, do it differently, I think is important.
Butch Norton (46:43)
Well and and and then
Very important and also to I espouse about you know taking you know in your practice sessions okay, practice those those rudiments, the beginning stuff, great, but don't just do that. Get out of your normal patterns, take some time, a half an hour of within your practice or whenever, and and and don't
do the same things over and over and over and over. I know many guys that just keep playing the same stuff over and over and over and over.
Scott Catey (47:27)
I totally agree with that, Butch. When I was doing music, you know, it was a lot of practice was rote You just did these same things. Often it was scales, scales obviously are important, but sometimes you've got to get away from that and you've got to do something else. And I was training to be a vocalist, so I did a lot of operatic stuff and choral training, right?
Butch Norton (47:25)
break out of that.
Scott Catey (47:50)
And those are those practice sessions turned into basically it's the same thing every every day or every week when we when we meet. And it gets so, I mean, God help me, boring at times. It's like I don't know if I wanna want to do this anymore. So the the invitation to try something different, I think is like, I could have had a V8, right?
Butch Norton (48:13)
Exactly. Yes, that's exactly what I say. You could have had a V eight. What's up with that?
for your younger fans, look that up, v8, okay?
Scott Catey (48:28)
One of
my favorite things on your website is entrainment. This is an idea that I love. I want to hear you talk about it, butch. Tell me how entrainment lands on you.
Butch Norton (48:37)
Well, it it came from Mickey Hart's book, you know, his first book, the the magic book of percussion. I can't think of the title right at the moment, I see it. he talks about this in the s fifteen hundreds there's a a scientist, Huygens over in Europe, who just came up with this
the discovery of entrainment and it was all because of clocks, pendulums. He'd walk by the clockmaker and he would see the all the you know pendulums going on the clocks. And he's he went, wait a minute. What if I he put two clocks together
in proximity of each other. And he started noticing that the pendulums would eventually line up. And he called this entrainment. And he said it's this phenomenon of entrainment, you take a baby, put the baby on the mother's chest lying there, and the hearts will entrain. They will sync up. They will just automatically line up. And that's this this concept of entrainment.
And pr as it applies to drumming and rhythm
I I I'm always you're t always trying to attain this this place of entrainment with when you're working with musicians in anything in life, you know when shit ain't lined up, right? You know, it's like boom, we're this is not this is not entraining this is not working, we need to take another path here. And then there's people I'll come into a room for the first time as some musicians and boom.
Scott Catey (50:25)
Yeah.
Butch Norton (50:37)
It's like we're not thinking. Ever somebody makes a tur twist or a turn musically and everybody's right there entrained going in that same direction. So the the ever since I read that book and and thinking about this this f this entrainment, it's I'm I'm very aware of it.
Scott Catey (51:02)
It would seem to be like a important part of your work with dancers for one thing, but also coming from Mickey Hart, like that makes sense for a jam band. You gotta be you gotta be entrained to do what they did.
Butch Norton (51:19)
Yeah. Or or it's just and I've I've been in rooms with musicians. I've gone to see shows and I'll leave after ten minutes because this is not entraining This is this there everybody people are just going off doing their own thing. It's a train wreck and it's hurting my soul and and I feel I I'll never forget I went to see
The Tommy Bolan band opened for the Jefferson Starship at Winterland in San Francisco. I had just got my driver's license. And I was there. No, no, I was there. And Tommy Bolan, who had just done the Billy Cobham record and was, you know, he was the rock.
Scott Catey (51:55)
Jesus, you were there in that moment, Butch.
Butch Norton (52:08)
Guitar God at that time had this amazing band.
And they it was the loudest thing, the loudest I've I've never even since heard anything louder or more painfully louder than this show. And it was so loud, and Tommy was not listening to the rest of the band and just s screaming on guitar, and people were going crazy for him. It just I started vomiting during the show because it affected me.
that way. It was not something was wrong. I had to leave. And it was an entrainment thing. That's how I always viewed it. It just it was not clicking.
Plus the plus the seven beers I had, I think that might have had you know, at fifteen and a half if it's not.
Scott Catey (52:57)
It couldn't have anything to do with that. Beer is healthy.
But I I think the the embodiment, the sense that the that entrainment actually has some effect. It's not just nice that your heart's beat together, mother mother and child, but there's actually something much more sort of I don't know, physical or material actually happening that comes out of that, right? And that that can convey to other bodies next to you.
Butch Norton (53:21)
well it's it's it is when I f when I play pop funk stuff, it's immediate. When you th like like I said, that's what I'm looking for. That's what I'm trying to connect with people is is this entrainment. Can I can I help you get there? Can you come with me and lock into what I'm doing? I'm not a you know, I can do a a lot of technical flashy stuff, but to me the important thing is this
Laying this great foundation that moves you that you can feel.
Scott Catey (53:54)
Where does it come from, Butch? Wh how do you how do you, Butch Norton, get the groove going?
Butch Norton (54:02)
it's it's just in me. You know, I've got the music in me, Elton John. Thank you. and Kiki Dee I I've yeah, I'm ready to go at a at a a right now. I was playing right before we we started up here. I was working on some s it's i it is a it's a a definite sickness. It's a real problem.
Scott Catey (54:29)
I know you left your studio to come over for to get the better connection over here, Butch, but any chance you'd walk us back and demo something for us? I'd love to hear what you're up to.
Butch Norton (54:41)
wow. Okay, let's see if the if the if the craziness in the studio works. Hold on here.
Butch Norton (54:41)
Are you still with me?
Scott Catey (54:42)
Still there. Yep.
Butch Norton (55:11)
it's this is a you know, it's a weird it's a very bizarre setup of percussiony this
Scott Catey (55:09)
I like that. That's good, Butch.
Butch Norton (55:19)
is a heating duct drum. Okay.
Scott Catey (55:23)
You made that yourself?
Butch Norton (55:25)
I made this myself.
I stole her from a construction site when I was fourteen because I wanted to have North drums and I couldn't afford them at the time. so yeah, i I I fabricated this drum
Scott Catey (55:45)
Hit that for me. Let me hear that. Which do you mind?
Butch Norton (55:48)
No.
It's a th a very thuddy sound, which I'm actually using more as a snare drum for me.
Scott Catey (56:16)
Do you tune that like a snare?
Butch Norton (56:18)
No, no, it's it's completely obvious it's more like an African Sogo. It's a s a type of Tom Tom African. So I I fashion it more towards that. this is custom made rain stick. and the beauty of this is that at the top of this rain stick, hold on.
That's my hip bone.
Scott Catey (56:48)
my god, you're kidding. Fantastic.
Butch Norton (56:51)
Yeah, I had the surgeon give me my hip bone and then my one of my stick companies in Canada, I was gonna make a mallet and he he said, No, we're gonna make you a rain stick. And so he made me this rain stick with the head of my s of with my hip bone.
Scott Catey (57:14)
That walk me through that conversation with your doctor, Butch. That can't have been easy to convince him to give that up.
Butch Norton (57:21)
no. I was I was in the the the pr getting ready they were pr proceeding to go into the operating theater and I said hey doc before we go in I have a weird question. He goes, what? And I said, I want I want my hip bone.
And he goes, Really? And I go, Yeah, I want my hip bone. I'm a drummer. I'm gonna make a mallet out of it. And he goes, he goes, Yeah. I've got so some other weird guys like you, because I have one guy who you put it on a stick shift of his car. And he goes, I have another guy who put it on the the head of his cane. And I said, Yeah, I'm gonna make a mallet out of it, man. So it took a couple weeks to get it back from pathology, but yeah, I I got it.
Scott Catey (58:09)
Okay.
And they cleaned it all up for you? It was all just bone when you got it back?
Butch Norton (58:19)
Yeah, yeah, they yeah, they you I couldn't get it immediately. It had to go to pathology and they had to test, you know, they had to cut it up a little a bit in three pieces to make sure that there, you know, there's no infections or no diseases and all that. Yeah. And then I super glued it back together and put it went to found a company that made a lucite ball out of it.
Scott Catey (58:44)
And the guy in Canada was like, Whatever, send us your bone, we'll we'll make it into a rain stick.
Butch Norton (58:49)
yeah, Dave Dave Rundle at Head his company's called Headhunters, okay? And Headhunters creations in Toronto. he was he's the right guy. I s I said, I'm getting my hip bone. I'm gonna make a mallet, yeah, we're gonna make a mallet. Yeah, let's go. Yeah.
Scott Catey (59:08)
I don't know if you've seen Twenty Eight Years Later and the Bone f follow up, I forget the Bone Theater, whatever the the title is, with Ralph Fiennes Have you seen these films?
Butch Norton (59:18)
No.
Scott Catey (59:21)
You got to. You've got to see it with this story in mind. I I have I have a vision in my head of your of your guy in Canada as Ralph Fiennes doing doing the bone thing.
Butch Norton (59:22)
Okay. Okay.
well I can see it already. Yeah, no he's he's a a mad scientist and his his his his creations
Scott Catey (59:40)
Hello.
Butch Norton (59:48)
These are called thunder sticks.
He has these wild creations of sticks and mallets.
Scott Catey (60:10)
that's a good sound. I like that a lot.
Butch Norton (60:15)
Yeah, he he combines all he's has a serious problem.
a good way. Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Catey (60:21)
As do many of us, right?
So on your your repurposed percussion videos, I really like the salt of the earth, the the shaker that you have. I th that's again, put that on a high gain microphone, I can hear it, right? What you're talking about with that. That's a really cool idea using that. And the other pieces that you had on there, the the shot pieces in the bottles is the maraca.
Butch Norton (60:31)
Yes.
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Scott Catey (60:50)
replacement. Really fascinating stuff. Do you how do you is this is this part of your day? You just wander around and think about stuff that's going to be new for me?
Butch Norton (60:52)
Mm-hmm.
all the time. So I'll hear something, I'll see something, and and I have a community of friends that are equally as disturbed as me and we share and and make things for each other and use them. There's a lot of that.
Scott Catey (61:23)
I want to ask you Butch about LA and San Francisco, right? These are iconic cities for the for music, for the industry, but also for like the the sort of groundswell of stuff turning into what we recognize as folk and Americana and rock and roll and pop and all that really sourced out of those two cities in large part. And the cities for so many musicians are you can't take them out of the of the
The evolution of the musician or of the music, right? So I'm thinking, for instance, of Tom Waits. And if you didn't have the Troubadour and the Tropicana and the Diner, you wouldn't have Tom Waits as we know him, in a sense, right? So LA is such an inhabitant, both of him and of his music. And I'm wondering, I get a sense that this feels to me like it must be similar for you. Like the cities are so important to what you do. Can you am I on the track here? Tell me how tell me how the cities are for you.
Butch Norton (61:58)
Yes.
No, you're you are correct. I was just reading something today of a buddy of mine in Nashville, a drummer, and and the world that that is and and how that all works you hit the nail on the head. that does Nashville does not work in LA. LA does not work in Nashville.
doing what I do, you have to be around a for I believe you have to be around a community of like minded people. And if if you're gonna do country music, you go to Nashville. If you're gonna do you know jazz, you go you're gonna go to New York. I mean you you can do jazz in other places, but if you're really gonna if if you want to be in that world, that's where you gotta go.
LA, you want to do more experimental, you want to do pop rock stuff. That yeah, come here. San Francisco look definitely more esoteric music. There's there's some great jazz coming out of there and art, music, and very creative stuff. Yeah, the where where you are, where you live, and the community the community of people you surround yourself with.
Scott Catey (63:45)
I can feel it when I listen to the the way that you talk and the way that you play on your videos. I can it feels to me like LA is in there for me. It just it's like I can I get a sense of the legacy of the city and all the music that's gone on there when I listen to you play.
Butch Norton (64:03)
well then my job is done. Thank you.
Scott Catey (64:09)
Listen, Butch, we've gone over an hour. I appreciate the time, but we I don't I want to respect that you've got other things going on in your life besides just chatting with me. But this has been wonderful. Thank you very much. And as a parting gift, your piece of wisdom to to impart to everybody?
Butch Norton (64:19)
You're welcome. My pleasure.
The what we talked about the the the biggest thing I can impart is, you know, don't get stuck in the same things over and over. break out of the your usual patterns, find some new patterns, experiment. and don't don't worry about again making mistakes because again mistakes turn into amazing things.
just break out of your normal patterns.
Scott Catey (64:59)
I think that's good advice. Good a good piece of wisdom, Butch.
Butch Norton (65:03)
Thank you. I'll tell my wife you said that. Thank you.
Scott Catey (65:07)
Yeah, I'm sure she'll th like this guy knows what he's talking about too, right? He's a thing.
Butch Norton (65:12)
No,
she no, she no.
No. And and I'll end with this. She won't because right before I was playing, I was doing my chores. My wife has the full time n nine to five. I was doing my chores, I was washing dishes, and like the two of us, she just she does not know how to organize the dishwasher. And so I have to reorganize the dishwasher. And then she'll come home tonight.
And she will go, What is wrong with the dishwasher? Reorganized her way. And we play this little game. We go back and forth. It's Beautiful. Yeah.
Scott Catey (65:56)
It sounds like a harmony, right? Entrainment around the dishwasher. You're gonna figure it out.
Butch Norton (66:02)
totally it's but then it it's the Beautiful chaos. It's the you open it, I open it up, and it's like why would she do it like this? And then she opens it up because why would he do it like this? it's it keeps us keeps us going. There we go.
Scott Catey (66:08)
That's good.
Yeah. All right. Thanks, Butch. I really appreciate it again for you being on here.
Butch Norton (66:26)
You're welcome. Thank you, Doctor.
Scott Catey (66:28)
Take care of yourself. See ya.