Welcome back to the inspired
living with auto-immunity podcast.
I'm your host, Julie Michelson.
And today we're joined by Dr.
Catherine Clinton, amazing naturopathic
physician specializing in auto-immunity
and psycho neuro immunology.
She shares with us her
approach to auto-immunity.
And why, what you might have been
told auto-immunity is, was wrong.
Join us to hear no cost action
steps that you can take today to
jumpstart your healing, and perhaps
the best part none of them have,
have to do with eliminating anything.
Catherine.
Thank you so much for
being on the podcast.
I'm so excited that
you're here with us today.
I am as well.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm just so excited to talk with
you about all of this stuff today.
Fantastic.
I know our passions overlap and I
always love to start with your personal
journey because for the most part,
we all kind of got into this world
through our own personal journey.
And I know you have, you have one too.
So share with listeners, you know, how
did you get to be doing what you're doing?
Absolutely.
Well, when I was in medical
school, I was in my second year
of naturopathic medical school.
And I was diagnosed with
ulcerative colitis and autoimmune
condition, which attacks the colon.
I was diagnosed with
Hashimoto's thyroiditis.
Which is another auto-immune condition
that affects the thyroid gland.
And I was diagnosed with
Lyme disease and multiple GI
bacterial parasitic infections.
And it, it was rough, you know,
I think most of us are familiar
with that kind of initiation phase
that happens in medical school and
that's right where I was long hours.
You know, in the clinic from 7:00
AM until 7:00 PM and I just didn't
have the foundation, the resilience,
you know, so that stress really
was the straw that broke the
proverbial camel's back, so to speak.
Right.
And, and I was in the
perfect place for that.
You know, I was surrounded by the
most amazing naturopathic physicians
regular MD's acupuncturists,
Chinese medicine doctors, and
they really helped me piece that.
Physical health back together.
And I think that's where most of us who
are dealing with chronic disease and
auto immune conditions rest in, right.
That goal of getting back to
where we were before we were
diagnosed or before we got ill.
And I think the most profound thing
for myself and my patients has been
that physical piece is incredible.
Once we get back to, you know, and
all the pieces are back in place.
We can realize that that lifestyle,
that status of energy is what
got us sick in the first place.
Right.
So there's another real level.
To humane sort of a psycho neuro
immunology piece to it, how our
thoughts play into it, how we sort
of fit in the world around us.
And that has been really the most
amazing piece for myself and my patients.
And so that is my story.
I have reversed those
auto road conditions.
You know,
Yeah.
Medication or, or anything
I do need to tend to myself.
And but besides that yes, I'm
doing, I'm doing well and just
really excited to be able to share
that with everyone out there.
I love that.
And I, I all too often with
the physicians, I, I talked to.
Medical school was the trigger.
It's it's like, when are we going
to change what we do to poor human
body and mind in medical school?
But I will say, I think you
were the first, maybe the
first one I've spoken to that.
Had a sub had that support quick enough.
Because especially, you know, the MDs
or the Dios, they didn't have those
other, they didn't have acupuncture.
They didn't have, you
know, any nature paths.
They didn't have that broad
community that you had.
That is amazing that you were
able to start to heal so quickly.
I always say I used to think I was
so smart, but I spent over 11 years
declining with RA because I believed my
doctors when they said I couldn't heal.
And so I get really excited when I
hear people that were like, you know,
no, this isn't isn't going to happen.
And even with like me, it
wasn't just one diagnosis.
It was multiple because that's,
that's what tends to happen.
Right, right.
It's that body saying are listening?
Nope.
Okay.
Here's another one listening.
I could be louder.
I can get louder.
So you threw out a big word
and it's a word that makes
me smile because it's a, I.
I love the study of it.
Psycho, neuro immunology.
Let's talk about that.
Let's, you know, get into some listeners
might be like, what did she make that up?
What is that?
So let's start there.
Absolutely.
Let's dive into that one.
Cause this is a huge word.
Right.
But basically what it means is the ability
of our thoughts to change our biology.
Right.
And so what we used to think, you know,
when I was in medical school, we thought
that a lot of the body communicated.
With chemical messages,
cytokines, neuropeptides,
hormones, that kind of thing.
Now we know that there's direct
innervation right from the brain directly.
Into the cells that line, the GI tract.
So there is a direct instantaneous
route from our brain to our gut.
And that's really what psycho
neuro immunology is about.
It's about how those thoughts
and frequencies can really,
really have a profound effect on.
Our biology.
You know, one of, one of my favorite
studies looks at trauma and trauma has
a significant impact on our biology
and it, one of the most significant
things that does is it shifts our
microbiome from a beneficial state
of microbes to a more harmful state.
And.
It increases because of that, it increases
inflammation and intestinal permeability.
But this study looked at cognitive
behavioral therapy being consciously
changing those thought patterns and
a, I think it was a 12 week session.
They completely reversed that.
Robo microbiomes arrangement.
Right?
So that shift to the more harmful
species shifted back to all those
beneficial species that we want in
our microbiome, just through the
power of changing the way we think.
So it's, it's really incredible.
It is B I'm covered in goosebumps.
You can't see on camera,
but I I'm actually.
The middle of writing a presentation that
we'll have early aired by the time this
does on the importance of creating the
healing mindset to, to facilitate healing.
I, my story was took the same track
as yours and that I was able to
thank goodness, heal my body and.
First, and now in my practice, as
I would imagine you use in yours as
well, you know, now I'm, I flip-flop
and we're going right in and let's get
the mindset accelerating the healing.
So I love that.
I say to people, and I love watching you.
You won't change
expression, you may smile.
But it always surprises me that
people just really don't know.
I say, you know, the body hears
every, everything you've said.
Every thought you have,
and it takes it as truth.
And that's the key right
there to that study.
Right?
Because the good news is once we become
aware of that, we can give it positive.
We can intentionally plant
those positive thoughts and
that's where I totally geek out.
And that's why I wanted to start
with this because it is so powerful.
It really, really is.
And, you know, as somebody
that's suffered from anxiety
throughout my life on and off.
Tell me to shocker.
And so hearing something like
that can be heavy, right?
Just like, oh no.
Oh,
It's like talking about toxins
and how they're everywhere and
it's like, okay, no, no, no, wait,
it doesn't mean it's all bad.
I swear.
Right because the power of a thought,
a positive thought is not dependent
on us holding that product forever.
Right.
It's, it's just as transient
as the negative thoughts.
So it's more about patterns
and more about empowerment.
The ability to do that a few
times a day, Really routes that
neurological pathway, so that those
few times a day become automatic.
And you can add more times to the day and
then you spend more time in that positive
nourishing state and yes, yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And, and I learned that, I think that is
so key people resist because, you know,
if they're in this stress loop and they're
either anxious or, you know, fatigued and.
And you want me to have positive thoughts?
Like that seems so foreign to
so many people, but this, this
knowledge we now have that you
don't even have to believe it.
Like just start doing it and let it work.
Its magic.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it's a wonderful thing to open
up that window into a relationship
with ourselves again, right.
When we are chronically ill dealing
with auto-immune conditions or
mental health, anxiety, depression,
we have a distrust of our body.
And, and we get disconnect
in there, right?
A panic attack is not comfortable.
So Yeah.
So opening up that window so
that we can access a deeper
relationship with ourselves.
A sense of safety in our own body
is so foundational to the health.
That's what I love working with people.
You know, getting that safety from
ourselves, getting that safety from
the world around us, because that's
what our body is really looking for.
You know, when we talk about auto-immune
conditions, if we were to Google it
right now or internet search it, it would
come up as your body attacking itself.
Right.
And it's, so isn't that such a
misnomer and a misunderstanding.
And it, it really takes that.
That relates to that neurological
communication of our body for
granted because what's happening
with auto-immune conditions.
To messages in our environment.
Right.
And if we can replace some of those
danger messages from processed food,
from feeling unsafe in your life.
Family community where
you work driving to work.
I mean, there's so many places where we
can get stressed toxins in our air and in
our water, there's so many danger signals
that are being sent to our biology.
And when we can replace those
dangerous signals with something.
Safety signal that our body, that
our biology is really looking for
whole food, clean water, clean air.
Then we can start to build
that safety outside of us.
And that's just an amazing thing to see
with myself and my family and my patients
is having someone who's unwell and
feeling so fundamentally unsafe, rebuild
those connections with themselves and
with the world around them, it's just.
Passion.
It's just, I can't think
of anything better.
I share that passion.
It's magical.
It's I mean, it's science,
but it's magical, you know,
all the stuff that sounds.
Ooh, it has so much science behind it.
And I think the being able to use that
with, at least for me being able to use
that with my clients is I know, again,
I know it's rooted in science, but it
is magical to watch people blossom.
And it is such a natural part of
autoimmunity and chronic illness.
even completely without awareness or
intention, get to a place where we feel
like, oh, my body is my enemy, right?
Like I'm in pain and I, maybe
I'm not as mobile, you know?
And it's, especially when we get into
that cascade or it's not one diagnosis.
Two or three or four or five.
And, and so it is so essential.
I always say, you know, we, we ha you
have to partner with your body because
the more you're feeling, you know, again,
it's hearing, it's hearing all of that.
So I, I am so.
That's share your passion for that.
And I'm excited for your
patients that that's the approach
that you're taking with them.
I don't know how so how, how do you
view, I think you already gave it to
us, but, but when a patient comes to
you, you know, in your practice, how
do you view auto-immunity like, what
do you, and I know I, I am pretty
sure you said you already said it,
but I want people to really hear.
The, you know, it's a, it's a
very different perspective and
it's a very accurate perspective.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's where
most people come to me.
Right.
They have been tested up
the wazoo, tried their.
Most likely a steroid all kind
of, you know yeah, drugs and,
and they're not feeling relief
and they are feeling betrayed.
They're feeling like their body's broken.
It's not their friend anymore.
And so that's what I start with.
I start with explaining that it
is not your body attacking itself.
It is your body.
That it has evolved on this earth for
millennia, with all kinds of different
messages that are really literally
quite literally written into our DNA.
And we're searching for that
when we are interacting.
In the world, when our microbiome is
interacting in the world, we are searching
for those signals to see where are we?
Where's my place in the world.
Am I in the right spot?
Right.
And so much of modern life is a dangerous.
Process toxins, the chronic
stress that we're under.
I mean, if we look at the last
two years, my goodness, right?
Incredible amounts of stress and
fear and, and so many obstacles.
Our, our modern life
really sets us up for.
Dangerous signals that
we have not evolved with.
So what I talk with my patients about is
removing some of those dangerous signals
and replacing them with signals of safety.
So this doesn't have to be overwhelming.
It doesn't have to be a
huge exclusion thing, right.
Even including, even if you're in
a place where you're like, I will.
Try another diet thing.
I will not, you know, I will not
exclude another thing from my life.
That's understandable.
Or at the same time, I can't write,
I live in an unsafe community.
My workplace isn't safe.
I don't feel safe in the world.
And, and, and very likely aren't right.
So.
If even if we can't remove those dangerous
signals, we can pile in the safety
signals so that our body is not, you
know, it's like a messaging center where
you're just getting like, there's a fire
on four, two, there's a fi firearm 13.
And you know, you've got your
operator go here, go there.
And people are panicking
and, and it's a chaotic.
System where we're used to our biology
is used to this orchestra of all of
these different messages that cascade
to biological action in our body.
And so even just adding those
in can be such a powerful thing.
That's where I like to start
with my patients because simple.
Three things that we do at home
can be really life-changing and for
some suffering from chronic illness.
And auto-immunity having that
window of hope open, it can be
the most powerful thing, right.
Because that's where we
see our patients, right.
They come to us.
Yes.
We're the last hope, you know,
and it's like a last ditch effort.
So, you know, okay.
Let's open up that hope, but let's
pilot in those safety signals and,
and just see just one week of it can
make a profound difference in our
physiology and how we're feeling.
So that's where I started with patients.
And I think that's, that's
incredible and fantastic.
And I, what I love the most is that
you're you talked about adding in, right?
Because so many people full disclosure,
eventually when I work with somebody,
we do eliminate certain foods.
But there is such a takeaway approach for
people that, you know, again, by the time
people find me, it's the same, it's the
same thing they show up at my doorstep.
Then most often there is the
occasional, you know, I just got that.
And it's a heck now, and I'm going
to do something right now, but
usually it's a, it's a journey.
And yeah, it's like, you know
what, Mo you know, don't take
another thing away from me.
So I love that add in
because it is so important.
It's, it's wordy feeling deprived
enough when we're not well, so,
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And we can eliminate those
foods and really form those
new connections with foods.
When we feel happier, when we have
or have the energy to, or yeah, I had a,
literally a client say to me yesterday,
she had shifted from, Hey, reminded her.
I'm like, you are the same.
You are the same woman who said
to me, you know, this is so hard.
And I, you know, the processes we all
go through, you know, it's so unfair
that I have to eat so carefully just to.
Feel halfway decent.
And yesterday she said to
me, cause she made the shift.
She said, I feel so fortunate
that I get to feed my body.
The things that nourish.
And it was like, oh, this is awesome.
It's the ship.
I love it.
So you mentioned, did, you
mentioned amazing things.
You mentioned, you know, no cost free
things that people can do to get started.
And I always ask every guest
for one thing, but you are.
Ultra generous.
And I know you're going to give us three.
So what are those things?
What can P you know, listeners
just start doing right now?
Well one of the biggest things
that I think people can do is
balancing our circadian rhythm.
Right?
So one of the things that we have
evolved with one of our major
safety signals is that we live on a
planet that orbits the sun, right.
And we live in rhythm with that sun.
And so when we wake up.
And we get am some light in
our eyes before 10:00 AM.
It sets a whole cascade of
hormones and neurotransmitters.
We get a flood of serotonin, which
gives us energy and feeling good.
That same serotonin actually,
when the lights are lowered in
the evening, when the sun goes
down, that turns into melatonin.
And that's our sleep hormone.
It actually has really incredible
antimicrobial, AMU benefits as well.
And
right now.
yeah, yeah, exactly.
And we've got dopamine and growth
hormone, all these things happening
with that am sun getting a little
sun in your day, also maintains.
Without your sunglasses on everybody.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And so I'm here in Oregon and there
are times when we don't see the sun for
Right?
right.
It's just this gray
background and that counts.
Yes.
Outside natural light.
It can be raining and dark and dreary.
If the sun just came up or it's
before 10:00 AM, that's, what's
going to trigger all of those things.
It doesn't have to be tropical,
wonderful sun that you want to,
you know, lay down and soak up.
It's just natural light.
It's being in that rhythm.
And when we lower the lights at night,
you know, watching that sun go down.
Triggers another whole cascade
physiologically in our body.
And what I like to do is
kind of make it a tradition.
So when the lights get lowered,
like here, it's dark at five, right?
Yes.
Well, we have to sort of adjust our
inside lights to some people that
doesn't throw as much blue light
and quiet, light out as salt lamps.
I feel really fortunate that we heat our
house with a wood stove so that we can.
Gathered around the fire at night,
you know, that's a fun thing to do.
There's all kinds of different
ways to turn this into a routine.
So it's not this like go out and
look at the assignment schedule
that you must've here too.
It becomes this relation.
With the sun and with the
rhythm of the season, that is
so important for our biology.
And I like to actually stack that with
getting in contact with the earth.
And so, again, it's cold.
You stole my, I was going to say,
if it's not freezing what I do
every morning, When it is cold.
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
And, and I try, I'll be honest with you.
I do try to go out and be barefoot and do
that in the morning as routine, my kids,
especially my youngest is so good at this.
She's she is our like cheerleader for her.
Yeah,
From some mornings.
I like, I am lucky to be outside moving.
sure.
I do not want the cold on my feet and you
can get that same benefit from touching
a trees, sitting on the grass, touching
the ground you know, touching something
that's living, even just being outside.
Would you in contact with those negative
ions that just enormous amount of
antioxidant potential that's out there.
So just even, I, you know, I would
challenge people listening today to try
this for four or five days a week and no.
The difference.
Notice the difference in your sleep
and your energy and your mood.
Is it a pure all?
No, but it's part of this
messaging system and that's the
idea is that there is no cure.
All we live in this ecosystem and we're
constantly messaging within ourselves
with our microbiome, the world around us.
So those, those two are so important and.
You know, there's boy now I'm having
a hard time choosing about the third
I know, cause there's, it's
like the list is so long.
Yeah.
I love it.
I can't wait to see what
you're going to choose now.
I'm not choosing, I'm going to tell you
Yeah.
really quick because I can't
choose diet is another huge one.
So getting like omega-threes and
resistant starches in our diet, build
our resilience across the board.
So they shift that microbiome
to a more healthy Composition of
microbes, those resistant starches
reach our colon and digested.
So our microbiome ferments, those
resistant starches into short chain,
fatty acids, those short chain, fatty
acids literally feed the mitochondria.
In ourselves, right?
That powerhouse of the cells and that
decreases intestinal permeability
and decreases overall inflammation.
And it increases our T regulatory cells.
And we haven't talked about those that
are T regulatory cells are those kinds
of superheroes of the immune system.
They'd go in.
Stop auto immune reactions.
They put out the inflammatory
fires of the body.
So something like resistant starches
is a great way to when we're
choosing what we need to eat, right.
Including some resistance, starches
from onions grains, garlic,
leeks, asparagus, these things.
I have such a profound effect and,
and a mega threes as same thing.
They will do all of the things
that I'm just mentioning.
And it isn't because you know,
a mega threes we've isolated
this compound and, and no.
From my perspective, it's really
because we have evolved forever around
waterways, eating seafood, eating sea
vegetables, and it's written into our DNA.
It's such a massive signal of safety.
You know, one of my favorite
studies is with infants in the NICU.
And so they separated
infants from their mothers.
For medical reasons it was necessary.
Right.
But the researchers knew that
that separation would cause.
Trauma and stress.
And it would cause that shift
from beneficial microbes in the
biome to more harmful species.
And of course it did right.
They tested.
And that's what they saw exactly.
Shifting to those horrible speakeasies
and the microbiome of these infants.
And so what they did is they supplemented
with the mega threes in the breast milk
bottles that they were giving to these
infants and they saw a complete reverse.
Of that shift right back to
having beneficial species like
we should have in our microbiome.
And why is that?
Did that make the infants feel
like they were with their mother?
No.
Nope.
They were probably still
Still traumatized.
Yeah.
size.
Right.
But what it did.
Offered their body, their biology
physiology, a massive dose of safety.
Like, yes, this is traumatizing to be away
with your mother, but from your mother.
But.
You are in a safe spot.
You're in the place that you
should be in this ecosystem.
And you have the resilience to weather,
this trauma, which, I mean, it just
gives me goosebumps saying, because
that's what we're talking about is
replacing those dangerous signals or even.
Adding as many as we can in so
that our body starts to quiet
that chaotic, inflammatory sort
of panic that happens right.
And, and just regulate and rebalance out.
So I really love those three things and
geez, the list goes on and on, which is
I'm cutting you off, so
we don't go overtime.
Maybe we can do this again, and
you can share more of the list.
What I love.
I really think my favorite
part of everything.
We covered the really big takeaway is
that we just need to move the needle.
We know you don't have to
fix everything all at once.
You don't have to find now if people
that come to me and they're like, I don't
have been looking for a diagnosis, I'm
like, I'm so glad you don't have one.
You don't identify with it then.
Like, that's one piece
we don't have to work on.
You know, it doesn't matter.
We're going to just do the work and
it's going to, it's going to be great.
But it is, it's about
moving the needle, right?
It's about adding in.
Those safety signals that increases
your energy, quiets, that immune system.
And then all of a sudden, like you
said, then you can work on diet.
Then you can work on some
of these other things.
And so, you know, I got into
functional medicine via biohacking.
So when I say you're speaking
my language, you are speaking.
I mean, you use the word stack and
people always are shocked when I
say, you know, we really need to
work on sleep and circadian rhythm.
And I want you to get morning
sunlight as a step one.
And they're like, what?
And I'm like, yeah, it's actually,
it is a rhythm, it's a cycle.
I even just to throw out a tip of my
own for that, that nighttime I used
some red lights in my house as well.
Because I, sometimes I am on the
computer and I, even if I have my
blue blockers on, I want, I just want
to make sure, I think of, you know,
when we think of our lighting, it is
literally what were we exposed to?
The sun rises.
We get the blue light sunset.
We get that nice orange, red light.
It's that simple.
I don't know.
We don't have to go live in a tent, but
you know, like you said, just getting
in touch with it and it is, there are
plenty of days here in the winter.
It's it's, even though I
know it would be good for me.
You know, that the, I don't want
to stand barefoot on the earth.
Yeah.
Early in the morning when I'm out there
getting my sunlight, but what I do notice,
and that's the thing, as we take these
steps, we become so much more aware.
I work from home most of the time,
and I noticed that like, if my
energy is dipping, I can go outside
and get a few minutes of sunlight.
Stand in the grass barefoot.
And it's like, I'm fresh again.
So yeah, it really is effective.
So effective.
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And for any parents listening out there,
it's such a great thing for kids that
cranky too much thing, like go outside and
you will come back, you know, relaxed, a
But there's so much more in touch with
it, I think, than we are, you know, we, we
tend to shut all of that down over time.
And so the kids, you know, they, they may
not know they feel it, but they feel it.
That's why your little one is like,
you know, it's time, it's time.
Let's go outside, stand in the grass.
I love it.
And you see.
I every year, when we go to the biohacking
conference, you see just horns of a
standing outside either, you know,
when we first get off the plane and get
there, and then in between, and I'm sure,
you know, the people at these hotels
and conference centers are wondering,
like, what the heck is going on with
everybody's standing around barefoot.
Absolutely.
I spoke at a conference this summer and
took some time in between to go swimming
and it was laying on the concrete,
you know, instead of on the normal.
And somebody was like, you
have to tell him what you're
Well,
There is some antioxidant potential here.
So I am charging up in my 20 minutes.
there you go.
Yeah, no
are energetic beings.
We are, we need to recharge.
Amen.
Absolutely.
I love it.
Well, before we wrap up,
where can listeners find you
Well, they can find me on my website,
which is drcatherineclinton.com and
that's, those are my social media handles.
You can find me on Instagram, on
Facebook and, and this is what I do.
I just love to give this content
out all the time so that we can
be healthier and happier to get.
I love it.
And all those links will
be in the show notes.
Catherine, thank you so much.
You shared, you overshared
so much gold with us today.
I would love to have you back
to do it again because I feel
like we definitely have more.
We could talk about.
Oh, I love that.
And it was just an honor
to talk with you today.
I love what you're doing.
This is so needed.
So thank you.
Thanks for everyone listening.
Remember you can get the show
notes and transcripts by visiting
inspired, living that show.
I hope you had a great time and
enjoyed this episode as much as I did.
I will see you next week.