081 | Alice Bidini | Negronis Are Not For Everyone | Four Seasons Riyadh

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, I am joined by Alice Bidini, an experienced bartender and bar manager from the Four Seasons Hotel in Riyadh.

Alice shares her journey from Rome to London, Kuala Lumpur, and now Ryadh.

We dive into the unique beverage preferences in different countries and the challenges of introducing new drink concepts, especially in a non-alcoholic market like Saudi Arabia.

We discuss how cultural and religious influences shape drinking habits in Malaysia and Saudi Arabia and how London's diverse landscape impacts its vibrant bar scene.

Our conversation also explores the global adaptation of Italian cuisine and drinks, from 'Nduja pizza to Negroni cocktails, and the efforts to balance authenticity and local tastes.

Tune in to learn about the cultural nuances shaping global palates and the innovative ways bartenders are rising to these challenges.

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:28 Guest Introduction: Alice's Journey

03:13 Cultural Insights and Market Differences

07:56 Exploring Taste Profiles Across Regions

11:29 The Melting Pot of London

13:20 Understanding Dry and Wet Cultures

14:04 Regional Drinking Preferences

15:09 Peroni's Popularity in the UK

17:53 Challenges of Non-Alcoholic Bartending in Saudi Arabia

21:42 Adapting to Local Tastes

28:58 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Alice Bidini

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Alice Bidini

Bar Manager | Four Seasons Riyadh

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

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Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

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episode transcripts.
Now let's dive into today's

episode.
Ciao, Alicia.

Welcome to the My Third Drinks
podcast.

Thank you.
Thank you so much.

Good afternoon.
It was fantastic to know that

actually we are from the same
city.

And then we had a bit of a chat
just now as to to realize that

actually we have a lot of places
in common.

And you used to work also in my
neighborhood where I used to

hang out as a teenager.
I I found out all along the time

that this is more common than
expected, especially when you

work in the bar industry.
It happens a lot.

No, that's true.
That's true.

And to be honest, I mean like
people from Rome, I mean we are,

I don't know, 345, you know,
whoever says a different number

of million, million people.
I used to live in Shinland and

they are, you know, Finns are 5
million.

So there's as many chances to
meet a Finnish person then to

meet a guy or girl from Rome.
So pretty common.

So let's start with this
interesting interview.

You know, we discovered each
other on Instagram, but it was

very interesting to find out
that of course, I mean, you are

working in Saudi Arabia.
So you are calling now from from

Riyadh?
From Riyadh directly, yes.

And of course, I mean, we're
going to talk about this later

on, but of course, like, you
know, a woman working in in

Riyadh in a bar.
Wow.

OK, let's let's have a chat and
find out more.

But also you bring experience
not only from an Italian

perspective and a Saudi
perspective, but, you know, you

have been living in other
countries as well.

So can you give us a bit of a
short intro so that people get

acquainted with why we are
talking today?

So as you said, I'm Italian,
born and raised in Rome, thirsty

eight years ago.
Firstly, this started to be a

long time and of course I
started to, to work in

hospitality when I, when I was
younger, when I was a child.

And then after I fell in love
with the, with bartending and

then I realized that he, he
really was the, the career that

I wanted to follow.
I I moved to London.

So.
I had the big chance to to move

there.
And as you know, London is the

Mecca for all the bartenders.
And then I moved in Malaysia, in

Kuala Lumpur.
I stayed for a while there,

opening a bar, and then I had
the chance to move in Thalia,

Arabia.
And now he's three years and now

that I'm here based in Saudi in
Riyadh, so now I'm currently the

part manager in for season hotel
here in Riyadh.

Wow, fantastic.
And that was super fast,

especially I'm not used to
Italians giving a short intro

that is really short.
So thank, thank you for that,

Alicia.
We will go in through into

details now with some of my
questions.

But what is interesting is also
there's a lot of things that you

know in play there because the
Italian bartending community in

London, of course is, is huge,
as it is everywhere around the

world.
What has London brought you?

What is the in a nutshell, let's
say the difference between

working in Rome, London, Kuala
Lumpur, Riyadh.

In a nutshell, what are the
differences between these four

places in terms of learning and
development?

What each place brought to you
as a as a professional.

Well, actually this is a very
interesting question.

So I could tell you what exactly
learned in every place where I

work and in every country or
continent that I work.

But the main thing that comes to
my mind when it has me such a

thing is that I really had the
chance regardless the skill

behind the bar or the skills
with the products and on how to

build a drink that this is
something that you of course, I

mean, we have to mention.
But the most important thing

that I learned and that I had
the really the chance to know

different kind of markets around
the world because working in

different continents and
especially Middle East is

considered like a separate
continent, especially called the

beverage.
It gave me really the chance to

understand how diverse are the
market in terms of beverage

around the world and the
costumes of people and the

culture of people, how different
they are.

So for example, so especially in
terms of taste or parrot in

Middle East, the taste is really
unbalanced on the sweet, sweet

parrot or sweet flavor,
something that is not so common

to find in Europe, for example.
This is the biggest treasure

that I learn, being able to
recognize and being able to

hanalize a market and how
diverse it can be.

And this is very interesting
because I've been, I mean,

living in different countries,
but also like working with many,

many countries around many
continents back then when I was

exporting beer.
And what is interesting is also

like that palates.
Let's say an Italian person is

very much, for example,
acquainted with coffee, you

know, or bitters, you know, like
the brands we start to, to drink

after dinner, you'd have a
bitter.

The Amato is a very big
component of you're like the

citrusy, you know, like we have
oranges.

It's very rich in that sense.
And I, and I remember this when

I was doing the WSDT level 2
with Nick Ryan in Ireland and we

were connected was during COVID
and I was the, the only known

Anglo-Saxon of his students and
he's Irish and all the other

were other Irish, English,
Americans.

They all had a certain type of
palettes.

The examples he was making, they
were very Anglo-Saxon, you know,

And I was like, I don't, what's
that, you know, like, what is

this thing?
I don't know, like he was

mentioning, I don't know
marshmallows and we know them,

but he's like, maybe I had
marshmallow once in my life, you

know?
And it's very interesting like

to see that you have to really
get into the different kind of

places to really understand what
those kind of consumers would

like in terms of standard taste
profile or flavor profile before

actually doing OK.
Like I like Negroni and I will

teach everybody to drink
Negroni, whatever else going

around the world because you
know, for people, the bitterness

of the Negroni over Campani,
like you would be putting people

off, not Italians, but on
average you will.

It's something that cannot,
cannot be a rule.

Something that maybe we like in
Europe is something that does

not perceived in the same way in
Asia or Southeast Asia though.

Like for example, as you, as you
said, almost everybody in Italy

takes coffee with sugar.
Here in Middle East, sugar is a

really like a tiny option.
So nobody's really taking coffee

with sugar.
So it's meaning that in some way

they are acquainted with the
bitter taste.

It's just something that they
want to have in their coffee,

but they don't want to to
experience in their cocktails or

in their drink.
If they decide to have that kind

of experience that is not
involved in coffee, so they

decide to have something that is
juice based or a cocktail

experience, they will definitely
go for something that is sweet

or maybe sour.
But they fall out and their

culture is really unbalanced on
this week taste.

Wow.
OK.

And what about like relation if
we do this comparison like on

around the places where you've
been working like what's the

difference for example with
between Saudi and Kuala Lumpur

like in terms of this kind of
like taste and flavour profile?

Saudi Arabia, we need to
understand one major point.

Is that exactly?
I think this is one of the most

challenging and difficult
marketing the world in terms of

beverage.
So Saudi is a really niche

market.
And the thing that we have to

understand is that they don't
have the same concept of

beverage as we have in the
Western world on in Asia.

For them, the beverage is 90%
related to a coffee experience.

Because of course, due to their
culture, due to religious

matter, religious reason, they
are not acquainted at all with

cocktails, with with spirits and
with hardcore.

So they don't really have this
concept of cocktail experience.

This is something that is
starting slowly, slowly in the

last 3-4 years.
So we are starting to helping

them to get acquainted with this
kind of concert that for them is

completely strange.
Let's say Oreos is something

that they are still not really
acquainted with.

I like what you said about this.
It's like if they put into a box

the bitterness of coffee and
answers like whatever is related

to coffee.
If I understand correctly,

paraphrasing you, I I like
bitterness, but only because

it's coffee.
And so it's like, it's, it's

that kind of like moment in my
day, you know, that's the

bitterness is given by the
coffee.

But when I'm not having coffee,
I don't want to experience

bitterness.
I want to experience different

flavor.
For example, in Kuala Lumpur, is

there something like that with
the locals, you know, like they

are more on a sweet side of
things or in a sour side of

things?
Or is there something specific

that you can compare to this
Saudi experience with bitterness

and coffee?
Not really, not really.

It's quite generic as you said
in this also is very much

related to the structure of
society they have.

Malaysia is a very peculiar
country among all the other one

in Southeast Asian because
basically in the past year or

along the time they experienced
a massive immigration from India

and a massive immigration from
China.

So it's meaning that now the 30%
of Malaysian people are Indians,

the 130% of Chinese and the 30%
that remains is purely

Malaysian.
So it's meaning that it's a

country that is as became really
multicultural in the past 20-30

years.
So it's meaning that a lot of

the influences of are playing in
that sense.

So in terms of beverage as well,
they had the chance to open

themselves to hold their kind of
faunts and to what the kind of

experience.
This is why the the bars being

in Kuala Lumpur now is growing
up is really around.

And is that specific like this
30% kind of things like is it

like specific to Kuala Lumpur or
like Malaysia in general?

Well, Malaysia in general, but
Kuala Lumpur at lost.

Yeah.
OK, OK.

And when you wear like in so in
in London, which is more of a

melting pot of different kind of
palates, is there something like

some difference between, you
know, from a taste profile and

flavor profile perspective?
Honestly, no.

I mean London is a place that is
so diverse and where you where

you can find the literally
anything, anything that has been

created on this earth, you can
find it.

To love them, in my opinion, is
not something that you can close

in a creech.
It's not something that you can

say all people in London they
prefer bitter or in the UK they

prefer dessert Bath.
Not just for the for the melting

pot on a cultural side, because
it's because as a city or as a

country, it felt this so
multicultural, but in terms of

party industry also being the
Mecca of the party industry for

the past 20 years.
The research in terms of

beverage, in terms of drink, in
terms of flavors and in terms of

fadings, matching and techniques
really develop there.

London.
It cannot be closed in a cage.

No, no, no, for sure.
But that also plays because of

that and because of so many
cultures in the Barcena as well.

Then that's what drives all this
experimentation I guess now.

The big difference that we have
among all the European

countries, no dry culture or wet
culture.

I mean Italy itself, it, it
belongs to a wet culture.

Wet culture means that we are
more familiar with wine by

culture rather than spirits.
I mean, if you think about

Italy, of course you can think
about bitter tomato liquors, but

the the main point for people
that are not afraid to the bar

industry is wine.
Alicia, what do you mean by just

to clarify for myself 1st and
then for the listeners, I guess

they may not be acquainted with
the term.

So did you say dry culture and
wet culture?

Yeah.
So basically this is a concept

that I, I, I don't know if
you're still infection or not,

since when I did the bartending
Academy was like ages able.

So this is something that I, I
was learning there.

And I remember one day we were
mopping drinking culture in

Europe and there were like the
Mediterranean countries that

belong to the wet culture,
meaning that we were more into

wines.
And UK and other countries they

were more like belonging to a
dry culture is meaning that they

have more more into spirits.
It's very interesting.

I mean, I, I live in Prague and
of course I'm, this is of

clearly a beer kind of culture,
but it's also very interesting

because even within the country,
for example, you know, my wife

is from Moravia, which is the
wine producing region, like the

South of the country.
And I used to work in Bilson,

which is predominantly beer.
So Prague is kind of like

halfway.
It's in between.

I mean, it's Bohemian, so it's,
it's beer still.

But it's also very interesting
what you're saying because for

example, like when I compare
Czech Republic with Slovakia,

the culture is different.
Slovakia is much more on white

spirits and is more on dark
spirits, for example, you know,

you go on the bitters here and
rum like so bittersweet.

And then in Slovakia you go more
on vodkas and clam Brandy.

So it's very interesting like
how you move even some

kilometers like then you have
repercussions on these habits.

And, and the reason why I'm
diving into this because I'm a

rich firm believer that, you
know, this really plays a role

into why certain trends take
place in some countries and they

can be exported to some other
countries.

I used to sell Peroni back in
the days.

And I mean, Peroni was like, you
know, the, the biggest country

for Peroni's UK.
And nobody ever said it to me or

let's say it's not written
anywhere.

But I'm pretty sure that the
reason was that because there's

so many Italian bartenders and
so many Italians living there

that the moment they saw Peroni,
they automatically felt the

connection, even though it was
a, let's say, a consumption

occasion that was maybe that,
you know, different than what it

was back in Italy, you know,
back.

And he was much more like
informal with pizza kind of

thing that in exactly more like
a pub kind of thing.

But for sure, and correct me if
I'm wrong, you know you as an

Italian bartender in London, you
probably were proud in serving

an Italian beer.
I remember that Peroni was

treated like super premium beer
and a super premium brands.

So of course I was proud of that
was I was proud of that because

as you said, for us to need
Tari, Peroni is the Super good

brand, but it was something that
more popular for us.

We are really used to have on
every table, on every meal, not

only on special occasion where
is something that was really

part of our culture when I was
in Uki remember that you was

being treated like super hot
beer.

Yeah, super fine, but super cool
as well.

I remember I tell you a funny
story when I, when I, I tried to

move to London many times but
never, never succeeded or never

wanted.
I don't know.

But like back then, it was in
2001 summer to the one and I

went to a place called Mezzo.
I don't know if it still exists.

It was in Soho because I was a
waiter in a restaurant in Rome

in my area that was called Mezzo
and you may know that.

And they told me that he had
taken on the inspiration like

when he was working in London
and so on.

And, and then I went there and I
ordered.

Back then he was still only in
Astrazura, you know, the yes,

like they were just exporting
with the Italian name, you know,

before the rebranding on Peroina
Slazura.

And I remember I had it and I
remember, I still remember in

2001, I think he was 7 lbs or 6
lbs in that place for a bottle

of 33 CL.
And I sat at the bar alone.

And then I ordered that beer and
it was like this kind of like

moment of pride because I was
lucky.

I'm Italian.
I may be moving here.

And, you know, I want to support
the Italian brands.

And I had it.
And then I didn't know that

after 10 years I would end up
selling it all around Europe and

Middle East.
But it was a funny, funny thing.

And I think that plays a really
huge role in how we behave now

as professional on what we try
to give as flavors to to other

cultures as well.
But let's focus more on why we

are here.
And I want to know more from

your experience, how does it
work?

So like just to clarify for for
listeners, So Saudi is a totally

dry country, not dry, not dry in
the sense of UK, but dry, dry,

you know, no alcohol.
Dry meaning that the alcohol is

still illegal.
No, we're working with

completely with non alcoholic
spirits.

And just to clarify, so you are
the bar manager, but the bar is

not yet open.
So I say we're not going to talk

about what it's going to be.
You know, you can give us some

hints, but from your experience
on the, let's say previous years

of where you're being, what you
have experienced now, because

working with only non alcoholic
beverages, you know, must be a

challenge.
So basically starting from the

beginning, just to give you a
small background, what is

happening when I have the chance
to move in Saudi Arabia, three

years and now it was still quite
new, quite new thing.

So of course I knew and I was
completely aware that there was

no alcohol whatsoever and that I
had to work just with non

alcoholic spirits or non
alcoholic ingredients in

general.
So why I decided to move here

and start this experience
because basically it's something

that I just wanted to experience
something new.

I wanted to learn how to work in
a different way because what I

always say when somebody's
asking me, I mean, what you were

a bartender?
So why you moved there that you

don't have alcohol?
It depend what doesn't mean to

you to make bar into in 2024.
And I can definitely say to you

that working with non alcoholic,
non alcoholic spirits or

ingredients in general, it
really changes my change your

mind.
It opens your mind and you

really change your mindset
because basically is a way of

rethink the bot itself in terms
of service, in terms of dealing

with people that are not really
acquainted.

With the better concept as we
have, so not only in terms of

customers and guests, but is a
different way of rethinking the

drink itself, the cocktail
itself, the shape, the texture,

the visual presentation as well
that this this is something that

in the Saudi market is vital.
So the Saudi market and the non

alcoholic market in general,
often they don't follow are

there roles a classic or a
regular marketers.

So there are so many varieties
that we can analyze.

So let me jump in.
Then there's an element that is

very interesting that is of
course, like working with, you

know, the technical aspect.
So so there is the element of

like the, you know, the non
alcoholic as an as we know it.

So let's say carbonated soft
drinks.

Then there's the element of the
non alcoholic cocktails, which

is another ball game, you know,
so it's it must be harder to

make cocktails without alcohol.
But then also the fact that is

super interesting is that for
the average Saudi, let's call it

like, you know, like they've
never tasted alcohol, you know,

and they are not acquainted with
certain dimensions of alcohol.

Like if we talk about the, let's
say a tanker A00, whether like

people can call it Gene or not,
that's another debate for

LinkedIn and other social media.
But you know, I know what a

tanker is and I know what to
expect from a tanker is 00, then

I can find what I'm looking for
or not.

But I know the starting place
now.

But I guess that for your
guests, you know, it must be

difficult because like, how are
you going to explain what a

cocktail is to somebody that
doesn't know what a cocktail is?

That's why we have to say one
thing that is very important

talking about specifically of
Saudi market about the 90% of

their experience they beverage
experience let's say for them is

coffee based.
They are very strong in coffee

culture and they are one of the
the biggest consumers of coffee

in the world is meaning that
they have so skilled also.

So basically they are
experiencing now something that

for them is completely new
because for them As for us is to

go.
I mean, I'll invite you for an

operative.
Well, let's go how to have a

drink together for them, let's
go how to have a drink together

is meaning that let's go and
take a coffee.

Let's go and take a latte,
cappuccino, americano, whatever.

It's the same concept with a
different beverage object, I'd

say.
So what we are doing now, we are

trying to accompany them to
learn something else, to learn

something new and to bring our
culture as well, of course with

non alcoholic spirits, but try
to giving them a drinking

experience that is new and
original and different from what

they have so far.
So is meaning that is like for

example in Europe 20-30 years
ago we had the first Japanese

restaurants.
Everybody was a bit like bit

skeptical in the beginning and
now they have this big boom.

So and now they are really part
of our culture, also our dining

culture.
We are now in Saudi Arabia at

this stage.
We are helping the people, of

course, respecting their culture
because we cannot use alcohol.

We are helping them to go
through this journey, try to let

them understand how our culture
and to show them from a

different perspective what a
drinking experience can be.

So a drinking experience is not
only let's go halt and have a

coffee, but let's eat at this
bar or let's eat at this

restaurant and let's have a
mocktail or a non alcoholic

cocktail.
So we are still in this at this

stage since most of them they
have no clue or what a cocktail

is.
They are still let's say taking

and relying a lot on the
recommendation of the bartender

or the waiter.
If we are talking about the bar

in a restaurant.
So 8090% of they are still

relying on that because of
course not knowing and not

having a background they can
pick you rely on someone else

that is suggesting them
something.

And that's why the role of the
bartender or the OR the waiter

in those kind of markets is more
enhanced their role rather than

in the holy countries because
they are guiding people because

they are like teaching something
and explaining a concept that

they don't really have no clue
what you what we are talking

about.
And it it's very what you're

saying.
You made the example of the

Japanese restaurant, but before
you said that, I was thinking

about Italian restaurants abroad
because I'm a freak of like

Italian immigration and because,
you know, we come from that kind

of culture.
And I have a take because I,

when I used to sell Peroni, for
example, you know, I studied

this like, you know, what's the
Italian community doing in that

specific country?
And if you take these original

countries where there is an
Italian community, like a big

Italian community, which means
that there is a big Italian

cuisine or restaurant scene,
they are much more acquainted

with what it is.
So if you take Germany, UK,

France, the US, you know, and of
course Argentina, you know, like

where all the Italian
immigration happened, they know

much better what Italian food
is.

But then if you go to other
countries, and I remember when I

used to live in Stockholm or in
Helsinki, I mean in Helsinki,

the back in my days, it was like
a chain of Italian restaurants

and one like couple of Italian,
like really out empty owned by

an Italian.
And when it felt like teaching

them, you know, I was also a
waiter there for some time

teaching them.
Give you a stupid example.

I was working in a pizza city as
a waiter.

There was a pizza that was made
with Duya because one of the

owners were calibrated and Duya,
for those of you who don't know,

it's like it's a spreadable
salami, which is very spicy.

And so they were just put like a
hints of it on the pizza and

some people would go there and
and order this Nduya pizza.

And my first question as a
waiter was like, do you like

spicy food?
And I was like, no, I hate

spicy.
I was like, sorry, I think you

shouldn't have this pizza or I
can give you this pizza, but ask

them to take these away.
But which is basically like

removing the egg from an
omelette.

But you know, if I didn't say
that and if the Finnish waiter

that didn't know about Nduya, he
would have given that that pizza

to them and they would have sent
it back crying for spicy food in

their mouth.
So there is there is this

element that is super
interesting now for teaching

people what something is
supposed to be like, you know,

it makes me think or what you
were saying about the coffee and

the cocktail in Saudi.
I was thinking like people or

drink cappuccino after a meal.
This is something really

interesting because I recall now
something that happened because

of this thing that you say about
the pizza coming back because

it's too spicy, because it's
exactly what it happened.

In my first year here in Saudi,
I was opening an Italian

restaurant and I was working
that as a head bartender.

When I created the menu together
with the with the bar manager

that was there basically daddy,
I was to bring in Saudi the

Italian culture.
So Italian appeared.

So we had all this Negroni style
thing, Negron, Americanos,

balliato and whatever, but the
like the 99% of those string,

they were sent back because they
were too bitter for the Saudi

ballad, for the Saudi taste.
This was my first year and so it

was my first experience by then
and this taught me a lot, took

me a lot on to how to rebalance
a drink.

Because The thing is, I mean
this for me as well.

What it, what is meant to, to
really understand the market is

not just assume that everything
that is considered classic is

good for everybody in the world.
Negroni in this place doesn't

work.
First soul is meaning that you

have to move from that
particular point and try to

understand how to rebuild and
how to rethink the construction

of your drink to go towards the
cast Pala.

That's all for today's Mafare
Drinks Podcast.

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transcripts.
This is Chris Mafare, and

remember that brands are built
bottom up.