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Disrupt Dialogue takes you inside the real conversations shaping today's startups. Join us as we explore the untold stories of founders and employees building the next generation of tech companies. From late-night coding sessions to pivotal pitch meetings, we break down the highs, lows, and everything in between of startup life. Raw, authentic, and always insightful.
You're listening to Disrupt Dialogue. Hi, everyone. This is Ana Mogul speaking, and I'm here with
Shanea Leven:Shania Levin.
Ana Mogul:And we're here to talk about everything startups, being a founder, being an employee. And today, we have a couple of different topics, but the main topic that we'll talk about is the expectations of working in a start up as an employee. We'll talk about compensation, and we'll talk about the expectations and responsibilities of being a start up employee. Shania, I know you want to talk about this topic. So I'll hand the mic over to you.
Shanea Leven:Amazing. So, yeah, thank you so much. We're I'm super excited to have this conversation with you. Should we start off by introducing ourselves? Yes, absolutely.
Shanea Leven:Awesome. So I'm Shanae Levin. I have been, in developer tools for 12 years, and I studied computer science and business. And I've been working in, I've had lots of stints in in AI. And most recently, I was a founder of a developer tools company called CodeC.
Shanea Leven:We built a code visualization, before it was cool, to help developers master the understanding of their code basis. And that got acquired early 2024. And so now, I'm really excited to share all of the things that I learned about working in startups, working on a startup, post startup, and then hopefully, listeners out there will learn a little bit from the experiences that I had. Anna, do you wanna go?
Ana Mogul:For sure. So I also have had a similar experience of, you know, working in tech, but I actually started working in marketing 12 years ago, working for the government and then working for multiple different types of agencies internationally and locally, and also founding my own startup that was acquired as well. Shania and I actually met right after that. So I was working with Shania. I was her VP of marketing at CodeC, and now we've decided to start a podcast together.
Shanea Leven:One of the things that I remember about the day that I saw you post in that group was just how on fire you were and all of the things that you had posted, and you could just tell from the messages. And I was like, I have to meet this girl. I feel like she is gonna she's, like, a rock star. She, like, knows what she wants. She's so clear, and I, like, reached out to you, like, literally, like, immediately.
Shanea Leven:And we've been friends ever since.
Ana Mogul:Yeah. That's where our journey and our venture started. And now we're here to talk about the learnings, the insights that we've had over the past decade of being founders, being employees, in start ups and tech?
Shanea Leven:Yeah. So I think as, you know, start up employees and, like, we always are taking a look at what's happening in the industry. So I think it's really important that we discuss it, that we know what we're getting, you know, into, that we can kind of deeply understand, you know, how it affects our lives and what these things mean. So something that happened today, which was a little bit shocking, was, the DOJ decided to, propose that Google gets broken up. And I thought that that was really interesting because we've seen this happen over the in the United States over the course of, you know, a 100 years.
Shanea Leven:Right? It started with BellSouth. It started with, like, all of these huge monopolies. And most recently, like, we saw Microsoft, you know, going through different things. And it's really interesting how this conversation started.
Shanea Leven:Right? So it was, you know, a lawsuit that the, DOJ brought in, about, you know, Google's dominance in the search engine market, right, in in 2020. And they did some pretty crazy things. We were all, I think, really, really shocked. Maybe it actually started with Epic.
Shanea Leven:Epic Games sued Apple and Google, for Monopoly. Started this whole thing, and then, you know, then we found out through these loss through the Epic lawsuit that they're, like, paying Apple to, like, be the dominant search engine on Apple, like Apple. And then, like, they were paying 1,000,000,000 of dollars to be number 1. And, like, you know, as a start up founder, you look at that and you're like, you know, how could I ever possibly compete against somebody paying another incredibly wealthy corporation to then still be number 1. And so as of today, like, the DOJ has just asked proposed that Google, gets broken up, which they have responded.
Shanea Leven:And they're like, this would be catastrophic, you know, to our business. This would be catastrophic to national security at a time where, you know, the US needs to maintain its its lead. And I thought that that was really, really interesting because as a startup founder, you know, there are other startups that compete with Google, like, stuff that go for example. Doctor. Go's been around for years, so many years.
Shanea Leven:Have they cracked the code? Have they, like, become a better search engine than Google? No. Right? But I think it's because of things like this, you know, so I thought that that was really, really interesting.
Ana Mogul:What do you think their proposals would be? I know that they have until the end of the year to submit a proposal. What what do you think they propose?
Shanea Leven:I think that Google is going to fight tooth and nail to be, like, nah. We're not gonna do that. No. Let's not do that. We we've got a good thing going here.
Shanea Leven:Yes. We made some mistakes. Yes. We paid x people, you know, to be number 1. Yes.
Shanea Leven:You know, it's a business. Yes. We want we need to have maintain our earnings to our shareholders. Mhmm. They're gonna do everything possible to not have this happen.
Shanea Leven:But I think, the DOJ will also try to, make sure that competition is fair. Right? And Google is a huge corporation saying, you know, as an ex Googler, you know, I think that, you know, it it a lot of the products are interconnected. Right? Mhmm.
Shanea Leven:And so, you know, I can see both sides of the argument, but I definitely think Google is gonna fight. I mean, it's in their best interest too.
Ana Mogul:Oh, for sure. And I think that just because you are Google, that doesn't necessarily mean that people would adopt the product that you're putting out there. For example, Google Plus. I think that's what it was called. So that didn't work out.
Ana Mogul:Right? Google has had so many failed products. So many. Exactly. So, you know, there's always, you know, that option.
Ana Mogul:So that option to compete with Google even if you are, you know, a small start up, there's still that space. And I think the Zuck talked about that a lot, in the past where that is the superpower of startups that you can move and, you're nimble and, you can move fast versus large corporations like Google.
Shanea Leven:Yeah. I even think that, you know, as a it's really interesting to kinda contrast, like, Google and, like, OpenAI. Right? OpenAI just had the biggest funding round literally ever. Right?
Shanea Leven:And the speed upon which they move is still just as fast as a startup, but with Google money. Right? Mhmm. And so, like, I think that for the rest of us, you know, we we're all striving to build something that impactful, you know, but then we do have to make sure that we've got a long way to go. We've got a long way to go before we have Google sized problems.
Shanea Leven:But if we are building our startups, and hopefully, we are lucky enough tomorrow to have Google's problems.
Ana Mogul:Oh, yeah. That would be nice. Google's problems and perhaps Google's money.
Shanea Leven:Right. Exactly.
Ana Mogul:That would be nice. So on the topic of money, the main theme for today's episode is the expectations of working in a start up as an employee, and the first subtopic would be compensation. So Yeah. Since COVID, there's been a a wide range of different types of compensation packages. And now that the job market is what they call an employer's market, those compensation brackets are, the historical compensation brackets of, like, 2020 to 2022 are just nowhere near to what is being offered right now.
Ana Mogul:What are your thoughts about that?
Shanea Leven:So I think that there's a couple of things. Right? Like, if we take a step back, right, and we understand how the how the market is working, that really kind of dictates what the salaries are. Because salaries are also like any other business. Right?
Shanea Leven:They are any like, they're just like sup they're supply and demand. And so when we cut the demand, when we increase the supply, prices go down. And we cut the demand, prices go down. Right? And so if your demand is super high and you have low supply, prices go up.
Shanea Leven:Right? It's it's very, very simple. In an employer market, that just means that we have this influx of supply from a bunch of different for a bunch of different reasons. Right? From interest rates in the US, and in other countries and from, you know, all of these layoffs and from the craziness of AI right now.
Shanea Leven:People are really uncertain if businesses are gonna get disrupted. And so if you have this influx of supply, that means that there are going to be people out there who will take a role if you have a role for, a lower compensation bracket. And companies are absolutely taking advantage of that right now. And so the expectation should be to be able to make sure that you are the one that has a role, to make sure that you're the one who's happy in that role, who can sustain it, figuring out whatever your values are. And should companies pay people more?
Shanea Leven:Absolutely. They should. Right? Yep. They should.
Shanea Leven:Right? Yes. A 1000%. But what that means is that your your compensation costs are already usually the biggest expense Yes. On your on your p and l, your profit and loss statement.
Shanea Leven:And so having that balance is really, really important for a CEO because they only have 2 jobs, generate revenue and not run out of money as a startup founder. Those are your 2 jobs.
Ana Mogul:I think with compensation right now in this job market, I think it goes hand in hand with the type of workplace that you're, working in. So I've seen a lot of chatter on, on LinkedIn, on social media about a remote worker, the compensation, it differs versus if you are on-site to make up for, you know, the extra time, that you're taking out of your day to get to work, any additional expenses. And I think that's a valuable conversation versus the geographics of where the employee is located. But that is a hot topic right now with people applying for jobs, and they are seeing that on-site or hybrid roles are, you know, they pay more. But that the counterargument to that is employees are saying they've adjusted to the remote working lifestyle after COVID, and now they're, you know, being forced back in without much notice.
Ana Mogul:And if they are trying to apply for a new job, you know, with Amazon,
Shanea Leven:Mhmm.
Ana Mogul:Having their employees come back to the office, like, 5 times a week for existing employees and for potential employees that are looking for jobs. They are struggling with the number of jobs that's on the market because it's not as many remote roles. Thoughts?
Shanea Leven:Yeah. I mean, so many thoughts. I feel like so first of all, the if I
Ana Mogul:were, you know, if I were creating this if I
Shanea Leven:were Andy Jessie, right, and, like, we're we they have a huge, crazy, ridiculous headcount. Right? Mhmm. I'm not saying that I'm gonna force everybody to go back to the office. Right?
Shanea Leven:But what I am saying is that I'm going to pay people more if I'm going into the office Because Mhmm. As a founder or as a CEO, I know we all know that you don't have to do that. Right? And so therefore, you should freaking pay me more. Right?
Shanea Leven:Like Yes. Come on. Like yeah. Right? Like, we all know that it's fine.
Shanea Leven:We don't have to go into the office. We were all just fine for the last 4 years. So if you're gonna force me to wake up at 6 AM and put on makeup and get in my car and listen to my podcasts and, you know, possibly wear heels so that people don't know how short I am, like, I feel like like I should get extra compensated for that. But on the other hand, you know, I I think that, you know, if you if you're in the market for a role, then you have to be would do what's best for your family and do what's best given the market today. We gotta make some trade offs.
Shanea Leven:I learned from my career coach, and this took me a really long time to really get through my head. There is no one perfect role. There's only trade offs in every role. Why? Because we're exchanging money for value.
Shanea Leven:Right? You have some skill that I don't have. So there are always gonna be trade offs to every role. And so which ones are gonna make you miserable, and which one are just a minor annoyance? You know, it's kinda how I think about it.
Ana Mogul:Yeah. And, you know, it's at the end of the day, it's all about prioritization. What is the most important thing for you? And you're right. I'm totally on the same page with what is important for your family, for people in your life that you care about.
Ana Mogul:And in this market, a lot of things are not, stable. There's a lot of contracts that are taken back. And even after you're signing an agreement, until you get that first pay paycheck, you're not in a job yet or you're not employed yet.
Shanea Leven:Girl, like like, even after, like, even after that, I've seen jobs, like okay. PSA to companies, stop freaking doing that. Stop. Yes. Stop it.
Shanea Leven:Stop. Stop. We know that you are in control of the market. CEO to CEO, founder to founder, company owner to company owner. Stop.
Shanea Leven:Stop messing with candidate heads. Right? It's terrible. Just because you have control of the roles does not mean that you can degrade the candidate experience. Right?
Shanea Leven:The candidate like, you're still messing with people's lives. So I just wanted to say that's a PSA. Don't degrade the candidate experience because it's just like this is in in 2019 Mhmm. Or, you know, early in 2020, where jobs were getting rescinded because of, you know, cove like, early, early COVID Right. Yes.
Shanea Leven:It was like we were in shock. Mhmm. Right? We were in shock when someone or a bunch of people got all of their offers rescinded. Like, we were like, oh my god.
Shanea Leven:This is terrible. How could you do that? And 4 years later, like, this is an acceptable practice. It's still not.
Ana Mogul:Yes. And if you've been, you know, if you've been, an employee for the past 5 years and have gone through that entire cycle, I could only imagine how that negative experience can impact someone, whose year laid off in 2020. And then and then it was an employee's mark in 2022, and now it's back
Shanea Leven:Awful.
Ana Mogul:All the way around. So I I can only empathize. So on that topic of, you know, being an employee, the responsibilities have also changed drastically with the layoffs and with existing teams, you know, taking on extra workload. And now with the job market being as it is, so the responsibilities and the expectations have shifted, and a lot of founders and a lot of CEOs have asked, you know, their team to, you know, put in more hours or, they are there's more pressure or there's there's more pressure within the workplace. What do you think we can do as an employee or as a founder to kind of close that gap, to to lessen the pressure on both sides of the table?
Ana Mogul:I'm gonna
Shanea Leven:mention someone, hopefully, without judgment. Andreessen Horowitz, Ben Horowitz? Ben Horowitz from Andreessen Horowitz. No matter how you feel about Andreessen Horowitz or a 16 z. And, nevertheless, there's a book called The Hard Thing About Hard Things, and it is a Silicon Valley staple book.
Shanea Leven:He talks about one point in the book called peacetime and wartime. Right?
Ana Mogul:Mhmm.
Shanea Leven:Peace time is where everything is blooming. Everything is growing. You know, everything is a rocket ship. Stocks are doing well, like, all of those things. Right?
Shanea Leven:And that's, you know, amazing. But then there's wartime. Right? And not actual war, you know, where things are the bubble has burst. Things are going down.
Shanea Leven:And think about the goals, the expectations of founders, of CEOs to deliver on to shareholders remains whether you're in peacetime or wartime at all. Like, that doesn't change. Right? And there is a tremendous amount of pressure on most reasonable CEOs. I'm not gonna say every CEO because c there are some CEOs out there that I just wanna, like, be like, what what the hell are you doing, man?
Shanea Leven:What what are you doing? But most CEOs are reasonable. They got into the gig. They're trying to solve a particular problem in the world, and they have a fiduciary duty to deliver for their shareholders, while also having enough money to make sure that we can continue to pay salary, right, for an extended period of time. And so that pressure never goes away.
Shanea Leven:And I think that, you know, as an employee, do are you responsible for that pressure? No. You aren't. But as part of the team, it is the expectation that however the market is, that you can deliver in your role. And sometimes delivering in your role changes based on things that no one controls.
Shanea Leven:So, you know, delivering your role in 2021 might have been incredibly easy as opposed to delivering your role in 2024 where things are no longer easy.
Ana Mogul:I think you put on a few really good points, and I think it's all about balance. Yeah. You know, it's it's all about balance and understanding and communication. From your side as an employee, it's communicating your needs. And as a founder, it's also communicating, you know, the company where it stands and very strict milestones or deadlines that you can communicate with your team so that they understand where it's going without without true without saying and yelling at the top of your lungs, hey.
Ana Mogul:We have to do this or we're gonna shut down. You know, you don't want to have that kind of environment. And to prevent that kind of environment, you need to be able to communicate well and to communicate the expectations to your employees well. With you know, you said a lot about the expectations from, like, an employee and what what you need to do to make sure that you don't burn out and how important that is. I think there's this, quote that I saw from Sahil, and I don't, you know, I don't have kids of my own, but he spoke to me and, you know, he said that the only people who will remember the overtime you worked are your kids.
Ana Mogul:People that
Shanea Leven:are
Ana Mogul:close to you. You you know, you're on your deathbed. No one your employer will not be there telling you, oh, good job for the good job Totally. On the overtime. No.
Ana Mogul:It's your kids. It's your loved ones that will remember, how much you were away or how much you couldn't, you know, make commitments. So I think one one of the other topics that we talked about previously was on topic with communication and understanding, you need to be able to manage up and down Mhmm. Depending on where you are in your org structure.
Shanea Leven:Mhmm.
Ana Mogul:And understanding the language, the the speak that you have to, verbalize with your with your team. What's your style when it comes to that? Like, what's your let's just say that, you know, we were we were in wartime. Right? Yeah.
Ana Mogul:What kind of language dialer how do you communicate something like that to to the team?
Shanea Leven:Yeah. So I pride myself on being a transparent leader as I can, right, within reason. And I think that this chain this has changed over the course of, you know, being a leader, you know, being a product executive, being a founder, being a CEO, like, those sort of things. Because my default is to share everything.
Ana Mogul:Right.
Shanea Leven:Right? That's my default. My default is to just be like, yo. This is what's happening. Like, this is what I'm dealing with.
Shanea Leven:You should know. Uh-huh. Right? But because it's the right thing to do, right, in my head, at least in my head. However, when you start working with a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds, and you're starting to work with, you know, lots of people's expectations of what leadership is and what they're supposed to do.
Shanea Leven:People think about things differently. Right? So I might say something being like, we have $10 in the bank. Right?
Ana Mogul:Oh, that's awesome. For That's good. People. Yes.
Shanea Leven:That will absolutely
Ana Mogul:That will people out. Freak you out. Like I say I just say months of runway versus
Shanea Leven:the actual dollar thing. See? I'm saying. Right?
Ana Mogul:Like but that's saying, right? Like, but that's but that's exactly my point.
Shanea Leven:Right? If I said, if I said the actual reality of, like, what I'm looking at as CEO, As a CEO, you are actually looking at the bank account number. Right. Logging in to a bank account and seeing the number that is calculated in days left at the company. If I just said that, everybody would panic.
Ana Mogul:Absolutely. And they won't be able to do their job.
Shanea Leven:And they wouldn't be able to do their job, and it would create undue anxiety. Right? And but that is transparency. Right. So as a leader, there you can't that's why I'm that's why I'm saying, like, you can't be you wanna be transparent.
Shanea Leven:You wanna make sure that people feel safe and comfortable and that they can do their best work, and you're not creating any extra undue stress with, you know, their expectations and their I mean, this is their livelihood you're we're talking about. Right? And so being transparent is giving your team the necessary information, but in a way that, you know, you know, balances their anxieties, their fears, their, you know, those sorts of things. And one thing that might be helpful to someone might not be helpful to another. And I think really understanding who is on your team.
Shanea Leven:Right? Who, what, and also understanding the laws, right? Sometimes you can't say anything. Mhmm. You know, that was one of the hardest things.
Shanea Leven:There was lots of things happening that I wanted to say at Coatsy that I literally couldn't. I just Yeah. I was I was unable to. And so for legal reasons Mhmm. And, like, I don't I don't really think that employees really know what that feels like.
Shanea Leven:Yeah. Because they are usually on the receiving end, but it's it's really challenging to strike that balance between legal, between harboring someone's anxieties and making sure that you're not gonna, you know, pose undue stress to them, while also delivering the necessary information that they need. And do companies and do CEOs fudge that up? Oh, yeah. For real.
Shanea Leven:They there's this bad very bad. Bad, bad, bad. But, you know, I think that humanity right now needs to show each other
Ana Mogul:a little bit of grace.
Shanea Leven:Mhmm. Within re grace within reason. Grace within reason.
Ana Mogul:Yeah. Right?
Shanea Leven:To to, you know, deliver on really, really tricky situations like that.
Ana Mogul:Yeah. And I guess after going through that lesson or that hardship, you you gain clarity that you've never had before as a leader as well. On my end, I was more on the, it's not that I didn't want to be transparent, but that I was very worried that people will panic, you know, and they will start looking for jobs elsewhere. That that would suck. You know?
Ana Mogul:And you have an a team, an a team of players and, you know, you're not doing your job. And because, like we said earlier, you know, leadership makes shitty decisions, You're not you maybe you're not perhaps doing the best job as a CEO. You're not perfect. For me, my learnings were that should have been transparent because then I would have been able to work with my team to get to a solution. Right?
Ana Mogul:So it's a push and pull. It's that balance. You can't absolutely say, hey. We have a dollar in the bank. Makes that 10 dollars.
Ana Mogul:I'm saying a dollar. We're just going lower. It's even lower. It's even lower. Can you imagine?
Ana Mogul:Can you imagine?
Shanea Leven:Like, I can't even get a Snickers bar for a dollar at this point.
Ana Mogul:Right? So Well, you know, you can absolute it it's like on the other ends of the spectrum, and it's just striking that balance. And I feel like you're never you're not gonna know what to do until after you messed it up, and then you gain clarity. Totally. I should have done it this way.
Shanea Leven:I don't think that people really understand the sentiment that there's this really unique thing in our minds as founders where we have this I think I wrote about it where I'm like, we are absolutely DeLulu. Right? Like, we're like, yeah. Yeah. I I I'm the person that can beat all the startup odds, and I'm just gonna go blissfully ignorant into this thing and try to get this business off the ground and force people that I don't know to do what I want them to do on my schedule.
Shanea Leven:Right? And then and have them fork over money, And then I'm gonna also lead a team that, you know, that will do all the things that I want in exactly the way that I want. That's not gonna happen. And while you're trying to do all of that, every ounce of your insecurities, every ounce of your weaknesses, all come out. They all come out.
Shanea Leven:And and then you add the added pressure of doing it under VC money with a timeline Mhmm. Right, that you're about to run out of money every single day to ticking time bomb, that's where you get craziness.
Ana Mogul:I think I mean, that's kind of like a a good way to, I guess, wrap up the topic and and and say that, you know, the responsibilities and expectations of being in start ups as an employee. I feel like our conversation has been more about our own experiences of things that we want to say to our employees, but we couldn't at that time. And we're saying that all of that in in this episode. But if, I mean, if you are a start up employee and you're listening to this, I think now you can see some humanity from the founder side, especially if you have a leadership team that you see, you know, who who are clocking in earlier than everybody else, clocking out later than everybody else, who's available 247 every single day, even on weekends, even on holidays. These are those thoughts and decisions and the pressure that that we feel as founders.
Ana Mogul:And I actually think that that's the reason why founders as employees are pretty awesome because they also understand this very well without having, you know, that conversation around, you know, it's wartime and this is what we need to do. With founders, you as employees, you don't usually even need to have that conversation because they they just know. And they also ask, you know, the the the best questions as well when when it comes to wartime. But I think that a lot of people look up to startups, like Stripe because they know that a lot of employees that were Stripe alumni have now gone on to create, you know, unicorn startups as well. So I think just being a part of a startup and then just going through that and having that extra visibility on what founders go through if you are a start up employee is so important because I think that would also, highlight you as, a part of the team who's who can understand not just their own role, but can, you know, kind of zoom out and see the bigger picture and look at the, you know, the bigger picture of how what moves the needle for the company.
Ana Mogul:So I think we want to wrap up that topic. I know we kind of went into a lot of different directions, but that is just, I guess, a taste for all of the learnings and experiences, skills, and the values that we have. We we haven't touched on exactly the values that we have as leaders, as founders, as employees. But once you listen to more of the following episodes, you'll understand, you know, where we stand on that spectrum as well. And we are going to publish an episode every Thursday, at 7 PM Eastern Standard Time.
Ana Mogul:And if you have any questions or any topics that you want Shanae and I to cover, you can reach out to us. Please give us feedback. If you think that you you think we should improve on something or you like something about this episode, please let us know. We're looking at 30 to 40 minutes per episode, so it's best to, you know, listen to us when you're driving to work or when you're waking up or maybe, right when you're getting ready for bed. But this is Anna, and I can't wait to talk to you all again next week.
Ana Mogul:Okay.
Shanea Leven:And this is Shania, and I'm so looking forward to having more chats next week.