Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The role of communications has changed. The expectations are higher. The margin for error is smaller.
Earning Your Seat is a podcast for communications leaders operating under changed expectations without a clear playbook.
Hosted by Dino Delic, Stephanie Lerdall, and Genevieve Brammall, the show places the hosts inside an experience many communicators recognize. Smart, capable leaders learning in real time how influence is earned, tested, and sustained.
Each episode features candid conversations with leaders across communications, data, media, and technology. Alongside those conversations, the hosts test ideas in real time, question what they have been taught, and confront where common advice breaks down under organizational pressure.
This is not aspirational thought leadership. It is a practical look at growth as it happens. How communicators earn trust, collaborate across functions, and lead with authority in a world moving faster than the role itself.
Pull up a chair. The work begins now.
Dino: This is powered by Meltwater
Dino Delic: Your idea of influence might be all wrong. You want to think beyond catchy slogans and viral moments, and you want to use your head literally, we're going into the brain specifically how the brain processes and retains the smallest moments, the fleeting pieces of information that shape how we act.
Ever wonder why some ads stick with you long after you've turned the TV off, while others just fade into oblivion? Well, it turns out there is a science behind it, and that's exactly what our guest, Carmen Simon brings to the table. She's a cognitive neuroscientist and instructor at Stanford and the Chief Science Officer at Enhancive.
She has spent years studying the psychology and physiology of memory, persuasion, and influence.
Carmen: we have the EEG, the electroencephalogram signal, the ECG on his wrist and fingers. I'm using that because typically when you are viewing a stimulus, whether you're a journalist and you're interviewing somebody. Somebody has a reaction, it doesn't matter if it's positive or negative, your skin physically changes.
Dino Delic: Sounds like something straight out of a sci-fi movie, doesn't it? But in reality, it's how our brains work. I'm not exaggerating. It really is game changing for anyone trying to persuade, communicate, or sell. So in this episode, we'll talk about how to control what your audience remembers, why you only need to control that 10%, and how to use repetition, simplicity, and emotions to make sure your message doesn't get lost in the noise. Think of it like this. What if you could guarantee that your message sticks no matter the length of the presentation or the complexity of your topic?
Dino Delic: Carmen's here to walk us through exactly how to get inside your audience's mind and leave a lasting impression. This isn't manipulation. It's about understanding the brain's hard wiring and using that knowledge to influence genuinely.
Carmen: but I just want you to keep this visual in mind [00:03:00] because whenever you hear me share any kind of principles or observations, they come from these neuroscience research studies. and the studies typically include, include me putting this type of gear on somebody's scalp, that somebody could be either a buyer or a seller and through the electrodes that I place here, I get to record the brainwaves that get generated in reaction to stimulation. In this case, he's a buyer and he's viewing a sales pitch delivered virtually. You can see the virtual presenter here. On his chest. I have an electrode that enables me to capture an electrocardiogram signal. So we have the EEG, the electroencephalogram signal, the ECG on his wrist and fingers. You're seeing another device here that's called A-G-S-R-A Galvanic Skin Response. I'm using that because typically when you are viewing a stimulus, whether you're a journalist and you're interviewing somebody or You're talking to somebody about some financial observations and now that [00:04:00] somebody has a reaction, it doesn't matter if it's positive or negative, your skin physically changes. So that's what these sensors enable me to capture. And then on the computer itself, or sometimes I ask people to wear the actual glasses, is an eye tracker. And the reason for that is because typically you'll look to where you think. So if it can capture visual attention, then we can associate that with some cognitive processing. So that's what I mean when we say the neuroscience of is a combination of these four signals that give me an undiluted preview into psychological and physiological processes without asking. This is the biggest deal because. Sometimes you might be asking people, what did you pay attention to when I was sharing that financial information or when we were sharing some piece of news, and people will tell you, I think I paid attention to this and this is how I felt during that segment, and this is what I liked and this is what I didn't like. They will self-report, but quite often those self-reports are not reliable because sometimes people overplay their emotions, sometimes they underplay them besides emotions and thoughts are so fast and fleeting that the only time you can ever have the raw reaction from the brain and the body to a stimulus is the millisecond that it happens. Everything else after the fact is memory and our memories are so fallible.
Gen: This is so fascinating. Can I just tell you, this is very, very little minor segue. I studied law and one day I was in a law class, like 200 students and, everyone's noisy that the, the lecturer hadn't arrived and suddenly there was this commotion at the front of the classroom and there was A fight. Two guys broke into the lecture hall.
They had a fight. They caught each other names. They were sort of knocking things over, commotion, and then they ran out. Then the lecturer arrived and she asked 200 students, tell me what [00:06:00] you saw. Tell me, like basically give me an eyewitness report on everything. And this was because we were studying criminal law.
But the thing was, and I found it fascinating when I was reading the preview notes, that, everyone has a different recollection or perception of what they've just seen or heard. if you tell them in beforehand that they need to remember, they will focus on memory. But if you don't know that you're meant to be taking in this, uh, information to recall it, you'll recall it differently.
And then she asked a whole series of questions and divided the room by who, like even what color shirt was the first guy wearing Or write down if anyone was wearing a hat and you know, what time did this occur? All these sorts of fascinating things. And the room was so. Diverse in its opinion or perception of what had just happened, that it, brought home the message that memory is fallible.
and that there is not one single source of truth, even though we all saw exactly the same thing, [00:07:00] which I
find so fascinating.
Carmen: It is fascinating and thank you so much for sharing this story. And it is so humbling too. And just know that memories are not only not always accurate and it's, they're not a recording of reality. They're, a reconstruction of reality and sometimes not an accurate reconstruction. And also each time that you relive and you start speaking about a memory, you have the possibility to change it, which is why I remember reading an article about a daughter and her father, and her father had lived through some traumatic experiences after the war.
but He never wanted to talk about those. And when he was just probed and probed, like, tell us and tell us and tell us. He finally was so fed up and he said, you know, I don't want to talk about those because I want to keep them untouched. He was smart enough to recognize that the moment you start talking about them each time, you have the possibility to recreate that memory, and he [00:08:00] wanted to keep it pristine and just for himself.
So it's a good reminder for all of us, and as we think about, well, how do we become more influential? How do we persuade the brain? By persuasion we mean getting other people to move in the direction that you think is worthwhile for you and for them. That's what would differentiate. Persuasion from manipulation.
Manipulation. You can still get people to move toward the cause, but it only serves you. So we know we're putting these principles on ethical hands. And a good persuader is a memorable persuader because people will move based on what they remember, not on what they forget. So in light of what, of what Jen is, is telling us and has, there are so many diverse ways in which you can remember things and incorrect ways.
What I'm noticing from my research is after 48 hours, no exception, people tend to forget 90% or sometimes more from the entire piece of communication. And the [00:09:00] tragedy is not the 90%, the tragedy is at the 10%. Let's look at it as a metaphorical number because sometimes it's slightly more, but quite often a lot less.
So that metaphorical 10% does tend to stay there across time, which means people will have something to act on. We act based on what we remember. If we're not careful, that message is left to chance and random. So if you're talking to groups of people, hardly ever do you talk to just one person and you want to just persuade that one individual.
Usually it's groups. If you're not careful, one person will remember one 10% message. Another person will remember the shirt, another person will remember another 10% message. Another person will remember something else. Another person will remember the cursing that was happening probably between the two people. And that's not the most important thing. You want to be in charge of the 10% message. So as a result of this show, I hope that we have our own 10% message to practice what we preach. So let's consider our mantra of control, your 10%, because the [00:10:00] moment that you're deliberate about that, you're not, you have not just memory, you have unified memories.
Decisions in organizations are so highly social, they're not individual. So you're hoping that not just one person remembers that important thing and you move them towards your cause. You're hoping that a group remembers what you want them to remember. And to do that, we have to control our 10%. So for the rest of the session, we can look at some practical criteria that will then feed into this one main message.
Dino Delic: Let's just pause for a second here, because what Carmen just showed us is so interesting to me. It's not vibes or opinions. This is electrodes on your head, senses on your skin, and eye tracking where your brain literally tells on you in real time. There are no surveys. There are no silly psychological questions like, how did that make you feel?
What you end up seeing here is the raw truth about what part of the message actually landed. And the kicker is none of that matters two days later because the [00:11:00] brain forgets almost everything. 90% is just gone, which means whatever. Survives isn't necessarily the most important part. It's just the part that happened to stick.
Could be a shirt, could be a moment, could be a fight in the front row. But that's the uncomfortable insight here. If we are not intentional with your message, the audience decides what the takeaway is. So when Carmen talks about being in charge of the 10%, that's not a nice to have.
That's the whole job. And it's the perfect pivot point because once you accept that reality, the next question isn't whether people remember something. It's whether you're going to decide what they remember.
Dino Delic: I wanna point out something. It was so obvious that what, Carmen teaches is valuable to salespeople. That's how I met her, right? She's done these sessions with one of our top salespeople at other companies and he recommended that, that I chat with her.
And, but me being me, I'm constantly thinking. But what about communicators? You know, [00:12:00] and this is where I want to take the conversation because reacting to something Carmen just said, there is a fine line between persuasion and manipulation, and in that moment, those two guys fighting weren't persuading anyone, but everybody remembered their different 10%.
In comms, you are embedding messaging. You are trying to move an audience. Without getting hung up on the difference between persuasion and manipulation, we are deliberate about the way we are trying to persuade someone in sales, but also in comms, we are in the
moving business.
We're trying to take someone from a current understanding or behavior and change their behavior and change their understanding. So this is my obsession. I know this works for sales 'cause I've implemented what Carmen does. I've implemented more repetition and all the other things, but I'm dying to know, and maybe you don't have to answer this question unless Stephanie feels like, feels strongly about hers, but I'm, I'm dying to know, does this directly apply?
Can we make communicators better like we do salespeople?
Steph: of course we can. communications is a, type of selling [00:13:00] maybe. what I'm curious about, I know you're gonna tell us a lot of things about how you structure your speech and, and the things that you say. How much, oftentimes someone will say to me, how long should I present for? could be 10 minutes, it could be 20 minutes, it could be three minutes. Like, what should I do? And then also there's always this element of like, should there be visuals? and sometimes it seems like a
good idea. Sometimes if the visuals are bad, maybe it's worse. how should you think about the combination, like the duration and the combination of visuals and, and spoken words?
Carmen: Ooh. I like both of those questions so much. You have no idea. And for the length, let's think of it this way sometimes. Why is it that people fear? What do they ask you about the length? Do you think it's because they fear that the longer you go, the worse it gets? Because if we didn't have that fear, then the length wouldn't really matter, would it?
Steph: It's also, you know, like [00:14:00] Morningstar puts on a lot of conferences and so we're doing the agenda and we're saying how much can people really sit through before they're gonna get bored? But also it's more work to do a shorter speech.
Carmen: You're so right. So let's tackle the first one in terms of the fear of the greater length. I remember a quote that I like so much, which is a presentation in your case, maybe even a conference should be like a miniskirt, short enough to be interesting and long enough to cover the subject.
Gen: That's fantastic.
Steph: I love it.
Gen: That's memorable. Yeah.
Dino Delic: Show the visual, show him the vi. There is a visual to that. She's got it in a slide, which is, I remember that analogy so well.
Carmen: But here's something that will serve all of us well, and I'm saying all of us, because as we deal with content, regardless of its length, the world is not getting any simpler, it's getting more complex. The reason you're even having that conference is because you want to bring all of these [00:15:00] elements together to some people, and after a while they can just feel heavy.
And the complexity multiplies. And I know that both of your fields that you're describing are filled with complexity. And here's the best news. The best news is that the brain synchronizes better with a complex signal than a simple signal. The only thing that must be simple in a presentation length, in a conference length is your 10% message there.
You're just coming right ahead and saying, this is what it is. Uh, for instance, we're creating a presentation right now for a client in, um, construction, and their message is control cost with flexibility and foresight, period. And all the rest of the supporting points feed into that main
point. So you control your 10% by making sure that you're clarified first.
And that simple, everything beyond that, the 90% has to be complex because simplicity is a snoozer after a while. have the courage to complexify, not simplify, [00:16:00] but manage that complexity well for somebody else's brain. And you see, complexity is not really the biggest issue. Randomness is.
Dino Delic: Carmen's words on the 10%. Really set the stage for something that feels deceptively simple, controlling the narrative and shaping what sticks. But as anyone who's tried crafting a message knows simplicity is not synonymous with ease. How do you make something stick in a world so full of noise?
How do you make sure that the message doesn't get drowned out in the static? Carmen with her unique blend of neuroscience and communication tells us that the message must be controlled and repeated like an anchor. And that repetition, as we learned, can be both a science and an art. But what's the cost of too much simplicity?
What's the danger of oversimplifying the message? In a world where complexity is inevitable? There's a delicate balance to strike. So let's get into that now.
Dino Delic: I was just gonna say you, that makes me think of comms strategy because now I'm, [00:17:00] you know, designing the playbook of, there's a corporate strategy, the comms strategy, the messaging strategy, and there's a fractal element to that, which is they, they all have the same structure. You know, the C corporate strategy is to achieve a particular objective, you know, grow revenue and, but then there's three underlying goals.
But then the comm strategy is. What do we wanna be known for? But then there are three different audiences. How do we want to be known to this audience in that way? And it's all connected back.
Carmen: Yes. Connected back to that main street that come back to the tree and the, the branches, those set of properties. So this way it doesn't matter how much or how far you go through the branches to elaborate because a set of properties never changes.
Gen: I think that there is a little bit of randomness and there is a bit of changeability. Because we're searching for different audiences, for different brands. but my question was with the 10% message, is it literal, like that sentence that you said for that client, are you repeating those words [00:18:00] throughout or is it
euphemistic
Carmen: It's exactly the same words. You do not deviate from that. You do not waiver off of it. Like for instance, if we have a 10% message for this segment we're doing, it's control your 10%. So I come back to that same phrase again and again. I don't at some point say, manage your 10%. I don't say, be careful how you tackle the 10 to 18%.
It's always the exact same phrase said in the exact same way. And the reason I'm advocating for that, by the way, is because especially for competitive fields. You cannot afford the gist. You have to fight for verbatim memory. What I mean by this is if somebody comes and listens to you and then they listen from somebody else, and then they listen to somebody else and they hear some messages from somebody else and they all operate in similar spaces, after a while, the recipient's brain will not know who said what.
And after 48 hours, what do they tend to do? They have to make some decisions, and especially [00:19:00] beyond the 48 hours, they tend to give credit to the more familiar source. And if you are not the more familiar source, then you have essentially spent this entire time and effort delivering somebody else's message, and that just really hurts.
that's why you want to fight for verbatim, just for this core set of properties, a 10% message of your supporting points. Do not leave that to chance and come back to them in the exact same way.
Steph: Okay. So that's clearly the most important thing. How do you get those words right? What are the characteristics of the 10% message that will stay?
Carmen: I like that a lot. And we can connect it to the other sec of question that you had around visuals, because at some point it's beneficial if at least some of your supporting points do turn into something that the brain can see. The reason why the brain needs to see, by the way, and I'll, I'll explain this in a moment.
First, let's debunk a myth. Sometimes [00:20:00] you hear people say, some people are visual learners, some are auditory learners, some are kinesthetic learners. Have you heard those things? I'm hoping nobody ever repeats those things because there is no such thing as learning styles. That's a myth.
You know how you can be skeptical about learning styles, by the way,
Dino Delic: So quick interruption here because take it from someone who's been in sales for about 20 years.
This is the part that really changed everything that I thought I knew. About influence and persuasion. Carmen is so right about people obsessing about perfecting the message. But once you're in a competitive environment where there's three or four or five other people, sometimes 15 who are also bidding, who are also presenting and pitching, you've really gotta think about how you're gonna stand out.
And for me, I often made the mistake of standing out with lots of different slides. I never for once thought. Which slides am I gonna repeat multiple times? And that's [00:21:00] why this conversation was so powerful for me because ever since this conversation, I have adapted and I have changed and I've found slides that I now embed into my presentations about four or five times all the way throughout.
And when I ask people, or when other people ask on my behalf, what do they remember from the presentation, it's almost always that slide. So this stuff actually works.
Carmen: go online and start searching for learning styles. There are some papers out there that claim as many as 70 types of learning styles. Up to that point, you start learning to, to be very skeptical about it. But from a physiological perspective, 60 to 70% of our body receptors, which is how we take in the world, we build perceptions.
We start remembering things. As a result, we know how to make decisions. Those are visual. We are primarily visual beings. You cannot go wrong with visuals, and the good news is that you don't always have to show people mesmerizing pictures because let's just say [00:22:00] that may have not attended art school or maybe don't have access to the most talented graphic artists.
That's fine. Even just enabling the brain to see something internally. 'cause you don't always have to look in the external world. Even that is beneficial. Like if right now I said to you, climbing Mount Everest is like running on a treadmill, breathing through a straw. You see how I don't have to show you a PowerPoint presentation around this.
I'm just simply using words that build mental pictures. So as you're thinking about your one main message, now that you're constructing the supporting points, can at least a few of those build mental pictures in people's minds? Because in order for people to remember you, they must see what you.
Steph: That's why Dino uses analogies all the time.
Carmen: Yes, analogies and metaphors can definitely help you there
Dino Delic: as you can tell, tell I'm obsessed with psychology and sales, but everything, communications and all that. And I would imagine, [00:23:00] uh, the things that I've learned, you need people to interpret it in their way because in sales, we're trained to get people to say it themselves, to commit, because they're not gonna go with what you want them to go with.
It needs to be their idea and then they will pursue it.
Interpretation can definitely be valuable. And here's some other viewpoints that we
Carmen: can bring in. And Stephanie, thank you for getting us started on this. If you think about some words, there are some words that could be having these multiple connotations and not be overly used. So we have to guard against that because when you say solution, I think the word solution may have been used so much to the point where it started losing some of its connotations.
Like nobody really knows what that means, or the word change or transformation or innovation. Those could be left to interpretation, but by now they're so cliche that we just have to be at some point careful about those.
What I mean here to [00:24:00] challenge ourselves with is finding those words that haven't been overly used, still have the nuances, give the possibility of interpretation for some of the reasons that, uh, that Dino mentioned and to those reasons. We can add one more that I think you'd enjoy. Do you ever wonder why is it that some of the lyrics for a song stay in our memories for so long, or a famous jingle or some famous movie line?
Like for instance, gimme some of your favorite movie lines.
Gen: me the
money.
Carmen: Show me the money. Yes.
I'll be back.
Houston, we have a problem, right? Like those, those things will always be in our minds. Well, one of the reasons why they're so long lasting is because of a feature that I hope that we can challenge ourselves to bring to those words that Stephanie was asking about, which is portability.
If you think about those messages, Houston may have a problem that can apply in finance, [00:25:00] that can apply in, in the newsroom you can take it and you can, it's a portable, you can take it in all of these contexts. So when we say build layered guest experiences, that can mean people who are going to reside there.
But that could also mean as we, the construction company help you, the client, the owner of those buildings, you'll be our guests. Because we have been in the industry for so long, they will treat you in such a special way. So the white gloves are on, even as we work together, you can be a, a, a guest and our experience will be layered.
The construction itself is layered. So you see that phrase is not cliche yet. It has the nuances and it could be portable because it can apply in multiple contexts. Can at least one of your supporting points, ideally the entire main message. But if you can't get there, at least one of your supporting points have that criteria of portability.
Something to think about.
Dino Delic: Okay. Now let's take a moment and take in what just unfolded. We've heard about metaphors, repetition, and how emotions and [00:26:00] memories interlace, but what happens when you introduce complexity into the equation? So for our next trick, we're gonna talk about the balancing act between simplicity and complexity.
Too much of either, and the message risks being misunderstood, lost, or even worse, forgotten. But here's the real kicker. The brain craves novelty, yet it needs familiarity. That's why we lean into metaphors, imagery, and familiar patterns to help people understand complex ideas. After all, no one remembers the product specs.
We all remember the feeling of being told you had me at Hello. So as we dig deeper into what makes an impactful message, remember this, it's the emotional punch that counts. What's the hook? The trigger. It's the thing that leaves people thinking. That was a story worth remembering.
Dino Delic: data-driven communications or any of these other catchphrases, whether that is the core of the message or not. [00:27:00] You still need to make something so novel that it cap captures people's attention and it stays there.
So that it doesn't get blended into everything else that's very, very familiar, but it can't be too novel that it breaks people's brains and it takes too long to comprehend.
Carmen: It is a thin line, and as you ponder your own messages, maybe you have something coming up and you're thinking, how should I phrase this? I'm noticing that the first instinct that you have towards a message stays fairly on the surface. Like for example, when it comes to choosing a partner or hiring someone as a vendor, what do they want to say to you?
Well, choose us because we are a trusted partner. I mean, talk about cliche phrases. Well, can you do more showing and less telling? Like where is that trust coming from without you having to use the trust? Sometimes that trust comes from the fact that you have had so much experience in that field that of course you'd rather partner with somebody who has the experience versus somebody who is just simply a [00:28:00] neophyte.
So in a recent presentation, or you're phrasing the main message as, choose the team with deja vu. So you see how you're implying the trust. You're not saying Choose us as a trusted advisor. That deja vu, which is a familiar phrase, not something you would have expected as part of a 10% message. To see that novelty plus familiarity
Dino Delic: novel in this setting. That's the thing with analogies. It's novel in that
Carmen: yes, exactly.
Dino Delic: I really do think my brain is wired in a particular way where that's just 'cause I, comfortably say I'm an idiot, but I'm curious and I'm not afraid to ask questions.
And the way that I make sense of a situation is what does this feel like? And it drives my wife insane. 'cause she knows when she's like explaining something to me. Yesterday I was at a PTA meeting and this is what happened. And I was like, and she sees my eyes go here and I'm gonna come back with, oh, that's like when you're peeling a potato, like, you know, whatever analogy.
And she's like, I hate you, but you're right. And I [00:29:00] wonder, is that the process that is parallel to forming a familiar yet novel message? Because I'm thinking now for a communicator who has to say, alright, my CEO is fixated on launching an AI product. And when I look at the press release and the way that they wanna talk about it, or the product marketing team or whoever, they're so excited because they've been working for 12 months in a lab developing this thing and now I have to sell it to the media.
I have to call a journalist and say, wait till you get a load of this. This is the most novel thing you've ever heard. But also you have to understand it in this way.
I wanna have a conversation around designing messaging, but I, at some point, I also wanna have a conversation around the real impact that a communicator has to demonstrate at the end of the day is through some kind of presentation about how did we do and what happened.
So there's the front end of, uh, presentation design of embedding messaging, but then there's also the backend go reporting back to people and saying, this, this is how it went.
Carmen: And I like how you're [00:30:00] measuring, mentioning metrics because what to me are the best metrics after a presentation? There are two. One is. Having the courage to ask people after 48 hours, what do you remember and seeing if that matches with what you intended for them to remember? Very humbling moment. And number two is what are you willing to do with it?
Because what is memory if nobody does anything with it?
Dino Delic: Who's the subject in that question, you're talking about the audience or the person designing the presentation?
Carmen: I'm talking about the the audience. A person designed the presentation, asking the audience, what do you remember and what are you willing to do with it? And if you're satisfied with the answers to those two questions, then that's one indication that you've done a good job.
Dino Delic: What do you mean? What are you willing to do with it? So, okay, these two are my audience. I've presented to Stephanie's team. I think before I read your book back in Chicago where I had slides explaining the data-driven communications concept. Genevieve was at this keynote that I just gave in [00:31:00] Australia, but I think she was prepping in the other room.
I don't know if you even saw my presentation. So she wouldn't have seen the, then the second version. So it's hard to, to judge 'cause they didn't see the, the same content. But if I ask people, what do you remember? I have asked people that, and that was very humbling. They didn't remember the things that I wanted them to remember.
I got people to send me screenshots or other reps would say, oh, I, I heard from someone who attended your virtual workshop, and they said they loved the presentation and they, they thought some slides were great, and they took some screenshots. I said, which screenshots? Show 'em to me because I wanted to see what they were, but I didn't ask the question, what are you willing to do with it?
I don't understand the question. What, what does that question
Carmen: Well, let's just take it in light of this conversation, so I'm sharing. Our main message is control your 10%. One of the supporting points is make sure that you clarify it. We talked about the notion of repetition, which is the mother of memory. We talked about the notion of balancing novelty with surprise, for instance, or familiarity with this element of surprise.
So there's some supporting points [00:32:00] to that notion of controlling your 10%. So in 48 hours, if I ask a question, what do you remember? I'm hoping the main message is control your 10%. What are you willing to do? I'm hoping those answers say, well, next time that I have a presentation, I will challenge myself to clarify the 10%.
I'll challenge myself to repeat it more often than I think is necessary, because the more repetition, the more you are in charge. I'm challenging myself with adding at least one element of surprise per the sequence to jolt the brain out of its familiarity.
Dino Delic: so as Carmen's talking about crafting these messages, novel, yet familiar, something clicks. For me, it's like the way my brain works when I'm trying to make sense of things, I'm always searching for that analogy, that connection. You know, something that feels familiar, but with a little bit of a twist.
It's exactly what Carmen's talking about when she mentions the deja vu moment saying trust without saying it directly. It is subtle, but it really works and it makes me think, how [00:33:00] often do we default to these cliches just because they sound safe. But then as we explore the concept of the 10%, the real question is what happens next?
You could nail the message, but if people don't do anything with it, then what was the point? And that's where the conversation takes an interesting turn. It's not just about getting their attention, it's about moving them to action. That's where we land on the next part of the conversation. Emotion,
Dino Delic: I just wanna quickly ask Stephanie, What do you remember about the presentation I gave in Chicago?
Steph: Well, so this is what I wanna ask is about the role of emotion, because what I remember most from D well, I remember he was using so many analogies that I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna die. But also that the, he kept like, the toddler, like, why did, why are you doing this? Why are you doing this?
Why do you do this? we had all these answers until we didn't. And I felt, some like emotion, like, I don't know the answer to that question about my own strategy. [00:34:00] And so I think I remember that because it was such a strong emotion.
Is that true? Like, if you can get people to feel a peak emotion, does that. Trigger your memory.
Carmen: For sure. So if you think about emotions, no other variable in the literature of memory is talked about more other than repetition, but emotion. the moment that you feel something, whether it's strongly, positively, or strongly negatively, then the electrochemical signal is stronger. You have an increased chance at memory, and often that gets created out of tension and friction and anxiety, sometimes even anger, much more so than just being also elated and jumping up and down for joy.
I don't know, Dino, if you'll be in the position as you're announcing that AI product to get people to jump up and down for joy as they are listening to
that
Dino Delic: what you remember from that presentation was what you felt and you felt uncomfortable. [00:35:00] And that was partially my intention, but my intention was to then give you a resolution.
But what are you willing to do with that discomfort?
Gen: So you, you were using it to, to empower her to know that there are solutions to fix the problem
Dino Delic: But I made one big mistake. I did it in front of a team. And that's why I said to you afterwards, and I, I, now, I'm instructing my team. Never ever let me go to a presentation like that with the entire team without having a one-to-one with a leader, because I can never embarrass someone in front of their team.
That was, I apologize for that, Stephanie. Like I undermine your
Steph: I have recovered. I mean,
Dino Delic: but luckily
Steph: close,
so
Dino Delic: recovered. But there, there are other clients that will. Again, talking about persuasion and manipulation, we are looking for an outcome, right? I'm not trying to sell something. I'm trying to get people to remember a certain message, and I'm trying to get them to understand that I'm trying to help them.
And if I walk into a room and I make, all I do is, have 48 hours later, people remember that that was uncomfortable. The right person, you have the right attitude. You're like, [00:36:00] okay, I don't wanna feel that discomfort, and maybe this idiot has the answer if I can put up with his analogies. Not everyone feels that way.
Some other people are like, we're gonna go to a consultancy. See you
Gen: Yeah
Carmen: by the way, the variety of meta metaphors can be very beneficial. So Jen and Stephanie, this can help you out as well as you present information that otherwise may be abstract. Like for instance, in finance, quite often some pieces are abstract. Numbers in general are of the abstract nature. The moment that you bring in the metaphors, that means that you're mobilizing the brain with some specifics I had a hypothesis once for a neuroscience study that I was conducting, which was the more you vary the metaphor, the worse the brain gets in terms of attention. We start paying attention for a while or cognitive processing, it gets heavy. We are less motivated to keep going, therefore, we'll remember less in 48 hours, and I was wrong.
I'm wrong about 50% of the time in my neuroscience studies, which is great because that's the reason you wanna do science to [00:37:00] see what's going on.
Dino Delic: Wow. So thinking back to this part of the conversation, there are two real big takeaways for me. one, I just love the way Carmen talks about science. Often we think that scientific approaches are just a very precise way of proving that you're right.
And what she reframes here is that it's a very precise way of trying to figure out where you might be wrong. And the curiosity that she approaches her work with is so inspirational. But the second part is that I've often grappled as someone who naturally just comes up with metaphor and analogy after metaphor and analogy.
I've always wondered how much is too much. So it's interesting to me to hear that the more times you try to explain that situation, potentially that is better. And truthfully, that's what I have found. I have found that if I'm trying to explain a, a complicated concept to someone, and my first analogy doesn't work, I try with another one and then another one, and eventually it [00:38:00] does stick.
That's because all these metaphors and analogies, what they're doing It's like Velcro is another analogy. You have one end, but you need the other end to be sticky and you keep trying. You try a different analogy, and I'm not saying do the spray and pray approach, but it is really important to think about what your audience already knows, understands, and believes, because that is what you need to latch onto if they've never been inside a rocket ship.
We'll try to explain to them that it's a little bit similar to sitting inside the cockpit of your car, except there's 500 dials and many more buttons. You latch onto something that's already there. Otherwise, you really have to do a lot of the heavy lifting to try to make a message land, trying to attach it to something that they've no understanding of
Carmen: In one of the presentations that was the most memorable. When you vary 30 to 80% of the content is based on varied metaphors. Attention was better, motivation was [00:39:00] stronger, cognitive workload was actually less, and people remember the content better after 48 hours.
So that's another challenge you can take on for yourself. Speaking of what are you willing to do about it and see if you can take some of these complex and abstract concepts, express them through not just any kind of metaphors.
Gen: that
Carmen: way, those are not cliche metaphors like showing success at the top of a mountain or chess as a strategy.
Visual, but fresh metaphors, those were to be remembered a lot better after 48
Gen: The one thing I would say about metaphors and Dino's use of them for me is that, they do make complex, conversation relatable. they bring us sort of a, a comfort to a conversation of, even if I haven't understood all the rest of that, I understand that bit. That analogy makes sense to me 'cause it's in my language and, and I think there is so much power in language and what I've taken from, from this whole discussion today, I can't even imagine [00:40:00] trying to be in a in a more corporate.
comms role where you are trying to help the CEO navigate towards that 10% message. complexity of organizations coming back down to a 10% is really tricky, but language is so critical, which is why I love this. Because even in your layered guest approach, example, the word guest to me that's the emotional connection word.
That's the word is relatable, that's got that connectivity that you, you start to visualize what it would be and mean to be a guest. And there's a lot of connotation around, you know, guest is sometimes luxurious. It's less responsibility. There's, I mean, there's so many connotations with the word guest.
And so I suppose what I'm getting at is, The excitement around this 10%, yes, it might only be a phrase or a sentence, but if every word is intentional within that message, then [00:41:00] there is so much scope and, you can leave a little bit up to the minds are, you can leave it up to individual perceptions of what that 10% message means, so long as they remember the message, right, and then they can apply it in the way that makes sense for them.
So the action that comes at the end may not be as intentional as the message because different people can take different actions. But if everyone comes away with the same message, then you're heading in the same direction. But the, the audience segments may react differently to that message.
Carmen: yes. It's so true. And here's another criteria that we can add to. A solid 10% message, a memorable one, and that is this concept of cognitive ease, meaning that those words that you want to put in other people's minds come to the brain easily.
Dino Delic: And now we've come full circle. Carmen made it abundantly obvious that without emotion, even the most cleverly crafted message falls flat. [00:42:00] We are human after all, and we connect with stories, not data points. We remember how something made us feel, not just what was said. And whether it's a sales pitch or a high-stakes comms meeting, tapping into that emotional core is where the magic happens.
to light a fire. You need three things, fuel, oxygen, and a spark. So without the spark, nothing happens. And in a message without the emotion, nothing happens. If you don't have emotion built into your messaging, then all you have is a lump of wood waiting to be ignited.
Dino Delic: I wanna ask about the three takeaways. 'cause I'm very curious, what are we taking away with us? this is an experiment for me. I, you know, for salespeople this is a no brainer, but for comms people, are you guys walking away with the things that I was hoping you would,
Steph: Well, you might be
Gen: um
Steph: but it's control the 10%. I mean, that's the number [00:43:00] one thing.
Gen: control the 10% is like the topic of the discussion, but the takeaways were the, for me, with sort of three core ways that I can apply in my everyday to achieve, hopefully that 10%, controlling that 10%. And, I was trying for alliteration here on three words, starting with R but I can't think of an R word that equals visualization because that was the number one takeaway for me was using words that build mental pictures in people's minds.
That visualization. that to me Is journalism, it is language. It's the beauty of, of what we, we all do as communicators. So I love that the notion of that visualization is really critical. And then the other two are words were, repetition and relatability. if in every, time I'm presenting something that matters or encouraging or writing for someone else that's presenting or, if I can achieve that beautiful mental [00:44:00] picture, in a way and then repeat the message and in a way that is a really relatable message, then hopefully that will help control the 10%.
Carmen: I obviously took away the word fractal, which you solved for me. The problem of this, how I'm trying to do the Russian nesting dolls inside this playbook. So it's a simple concept for people to understand, uh, the balance of novelty and familiarity. Which is really like, if you think about the evolution of fashion and, and other things, music, it's always, you wanna be the next hot thing, you wanna be popular, you wanna be different.
Dino Delic: And so it's always just a slight iteration or a differentiation of something that already exists, like wearing a cap backwards or tops that are just slightly lower. because if you are drastically different, then you know, you stand out a little too much. So it's always about, and maybe then for communicators that, that is like always a, just evolving, just slightly.
So you don't get stale, but you're tweaking one little thing [00:45:00] at a time. And then the other thing that I learned, uh, is being very, very, very careful with people's emotions. You need it, like, it's like heat. You, cannot cook a meal without heat, but you gotta be careful with it because you can burn yourself and them and, and damage the cookware.
So that's a reminder for me. Don't make Stephanie uncomfortable in front of her team again.
Steph: I mean, it worked right? Like we're
Dino Delic: it
Steph: now
Dino Delic: to be there. And I, I've always said to my team, I'll say one other thing, the world tries to rationalize everything. And we have so many people. I just sent something to Marissa the other day about some guy who's a coach for CMOs who are getting pumped by CFOs to reduce budgets.
And he is like, you know, here are 10 posts that indicate how brand building is a necessary investment. And brand building is the most squishy thing and it's the first thing to go on a budget. And the CFOs. Everyone thinks that they think rationally and in sales. Jen, you've, uh, put out some [00:46:00] tenders in your time.
Tenders are the rationalization, taking the emotion out of a decision. You might really like a, a vendor. You they might take you out to dinner and then you build this affinity. But no, no, no. We have to make business decisions, and I hate that. I, that is not how people make decisions. A company is a bag of people and people are a bag of emotions and they will not make decisions unless they feel compelled to move in a particular direction.
And yes, people can manipulate other people by tapping into those emotions and being reckless and evil with it. But also the most, nice, uh, you know, kind-hearted people, unless they can help you feel an emotion, they will fail. They, they can have a really good concept, but if you cannot, and this, this is communications, you know, you could have a great product with a great press release, but if you don't connect with people emotionally.
And I'm not an emotional person. I'm not an empathetic person, but this is, so many salespeople come to me and they're like, oh, I sent this proposal. I haven't heard from the person who was like, cool. I [00:47:00] mean, let's, let's go back to, this is obviously little bit vulnerable for you, I'm sure, Stephanie, but I tell the story all the time.
You guys know that all I I I gossip about you guys all the time to all my friend, but I share all the lessons and the stories and the one story, there was a kid in Melbourne, I was doing a workshop with the team and they all thought I was gonna do a workshop teaching 'em about this framework. Well, I'm not gonna teach you about the framework 'cause it's technical.
You don't need to know it. What you need to know is how your job is to make people successful. So then some kid gets up and he wants to be really smart in front of everyone. He is like, oh, yeah. You know, well, what do you do when a client doesn't wanna engage? All right, cool. which client are you thinking of?
And he's thinking of zero. The, um, New Zealand accounting company for SMB clients. Okay. Who are you talking to? So and so. Great. What's their role? Oh, they're chief analyst. That's, you are talking to the chief analyst officer of this company? No, no, no, no. I was like, well, what's the title? Don't know.
Hmm. How long have they been in the company? Don't know. Okay. Why do you think they're not engaged? Right. Emotionally, like you're telling this person, I [00:48:00] think about all these technical things, and I'm a nerd, and blah, blah, blah, but like, you can't tell me, and I'm not the salesperson who says, find out what their dog's name is and send them gifts.
Like, no, that's manipulative. It's more. And so I tell the story about Stephanie and I showed them, I was like, what do you look at on, uh, Stephanie's LinkedIn profile that tells you how you need to help Stephanie? Why? Remember I asked Stephanie, why are you letting me come back after I embarrassed you in front of your team?
And we did a two hour workshop? What else are we supposed to do? What are you trying to improve? And Stephanie couldn't tell me. We just wanna get better. But what number on a spreadsheet am I supposed to improve for you, Stephanie? There isn't one. So I said, fuck this. This is weird. There's no way that you will let me come into a room and do what I do without knowing what you want me to fix.
And so I looked at Stephanie's profile. I was like, oh, PR week 40, under 40, page Society. And I was like, Stephanie, let me call you on your cell phone. I wanna ask you a personal question. She said, here's my cell phone. I said, are you trying to get the chief comms officer role at Morningstar? She said, [00:49:00] yes.
Now I get it. Now I'm emotionally invested 'cause I want you to get that role. So like, what are we gonna do? And then I called Jen. Jen, do you wanna mentor someone? Do you want to teach someone some of the cool shit that you've learned with that? And I feel like that's how you land here. Now Marissa's texting me on the side saying like, this is the greatest thing that I've ever been a part of.
And I feel like all this is, is just emotional connections. And that's why it's fun. But it's also if you take this outta the equation, that's why I hate RFPs and tenders so much. would you pick a spouse with an rfp? You would probably end up with somebody else, but No, you need, and a house, it's the same thing with work and a team.
I feel like we just take the emotion out of things too much, but that's to protect ourselves. 'cause we don't wanna be that vulnerable.
Carmen: And a good reminder for all of us is could you rescue then a dull RFP with the proper emotion? Like for instance, I'm just working on an RFP for an architecture firm. We are bidding for the Palm Springs Convention Center to be [00:50:00] modernized. And how do we start? We start by, not by. Oh, we're so excited to participate in this RFP.
Start by saying something like, um, the project manager, um, I have just recently seen a t-shirt that says Palm Springs is always a good idea. And our commitment to you as you hire us for local insight, strategic foresight, 10% message. We promise that we'll help all of your stakeholders, visitors, as, and residents consider that Palm Springs is always a good idea.
that's all written. It's not like you're not presenting formally, it's to dull RFP or simply responding to their messages. But it's still within our hands as we control the 10% to wrap it up in this emotional layer that is genuine. We're not trying to take them where we don't believe that we serve them well.
It's a message that you definitely believe in and you're excited about
Gen: one thing I would say if I worked at Meltwater [00:51:00] and I was doing a tender, and this is a, this is a line you've used Dino, so it's not, something I've come up with, but it's something that I've remembered that you've said. And if I was tendering for business, repeat business, new business, the differential for me, that Meltwater provides is the ability to shape strategy and not just kind of pat yourself on the back for the job that you've done.
So my 10% control, the message in that RFP for Meltwater would be we give you the roadmap, not just a rear view mirror.
Dino Delic: You know, the problem is everyone
says they But do they? No, because yesterday I was sitting there but then you go in and you explain how you do that, right? Which is different. 'cause yesterday I was in a, in a call with Meltwater showing our sales team, different things and they were blown away. For example, by the ability from Melt Water's technology to use the AI function to track a logo that was part of this campaign that we're about to do.
Gen: And we've got, I think, 14 clients that are signed up [00:52:00] into this massive editorial campaign. Logos are gonna be everywhere. Meltwater is the only one that can actually track that. so the technical side that they would mention. When they're winning this business is that technical ability. But the 10% message would be reinforcing that it's a roadmap, not just the rear view mirror for the 14 clients.
So I understand what you are saying is that, you know, that's not unique to Meltwater, but when you layer in the, capabilities and the product functionality of your technology, it becomes more important and more memorable rather than trying to be something that's so specific about the the tech.
Dino Delic: that's what Stephanie said earlier. It's like it takes more time to do a shorter presentation in shortened attention spans. Sales and communications share a challenge, which is what is the core of the message and how do you make that so familiar that it's understood, but novel so that it's not sounding like everything else.
And so whether it's a press release or a headline or a [00:53:00] subject, uh, line, or the first 15 seconds in a cold call or the opening slide of a, presentation, that's is, is where we share the challenge. But going back to. I mean, the journey that I'm on, the reason why balance is one of the, uh, takeaways, our biggest partnership, you know, the thing that Meltwater is hitching its wagon to right now with Microsoft, that wouldn't have happened if I wasn't so provocative in a tender that I sent them a cover letter and said, you know, thank you.
We're so excited. I was being very novel. And then I, uh, very familiar. And then I said, but I couldn't help but notice that you wanna pay us a million dollars to track 2000 publications and never miss a single clip so that within one hour we have to upload every single clip from these publications. So I took a look, playboy.com, why is that in there?
And I did what I did to Stephanie. I made them uncomfortable. And I said, you wanna give me a million dollars for that? And they've never written a story about Microsoft in the last five years. Why would you give me a million dollars for that? And then they listened. [00:54:00] And so then long story short, they canceled the RFP and all this sort of stuff.
They eventually become our partner, our closest. Partner. They, they start now. One of them, Stephanie from, Microsoft is working at Meltwater temporarily. Like this is a profound shift. They couldn't give a shit about us before, but they said, I don't wanna talk to Dino. I don't want that to happen. I don't want clients to be like, this guy's too provocative, but he's right.
And I listened to, I, I know you know who Chris Voss is, the FBI negotiator Carmen. but he, he taught me pay close attention to when people say, that's right. And you are right. uh, Microsoft said, you are right. But when people say, you are right, it's like, you're right. But fuck you. That's right. Is I agree.
And we're together. We're side by side. Your right is this That's right. Is we're shoulder to shoulder, side by side. We're working together and I'm on a journey as a human being to make your right. More often become. That's right.
Gen: Well, you have to be very self aware
Carmen: [00:55:00] Mm-hmm. even, you know, care about that nuance. But, it's a good thing to know. And if you're perceptive enough to pick up on it, it will obviously make you better, way better at your job.
Dino Delic: But I am like Carmen, I'm right. 50% of the time. I take big swings and I take risks and I, I, I coach people at Meltwater to do sales and I tell 'em like, you're gonna pick the phone up and you're gonna call this person. Like, what I did with Stephanie, I said to the team and everyone was like, don't do it.
Don't email her and say, what's your cell phone number? I wanna ask you a personal question. I was like, guys, I know this game. Like her subordinate was on the call, that's why she couldn't tell me what was going on. And I said, without Bridget on the call, are you trying to get the chief comms officer role?
She's like, yes. And I go, and you think Bridget doesn't really know what she's doing? She's like, yes. So like you pick up on that. But there were, there have been just as many times the 50% rule. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. But when you take a big swing, it pays off I just want to decrease my margin of
error.
Dino Delic: I. Think this is a perfect place to end the episode, but before you press stop, let me [00:56:00] give you a little more This conversation with Carmen Simon was a masterclass on how we can use persuasion, memory, and emotion in the world of communications and marketing.
It started with the simple question of how do we get our audience to remember what we say? Well, I hope you remember the conversation because there's gonna be a test. No, I'm just kidding. Today we went down a rabbit hole of repetition, metaphors and the power of emotional connection. And hey, these strategies aren't just for communications and marketing.
They work in pretty much every corner of the business. Sales, recruitment, hr, you name it, anywhere. You're trying to get people to pay attention and remember something. At the end of the day, it's all about crafting messages that linger, not just heard, but remembered. And I know you've heard this a thousand times before, but it's not just about what you say, it's about how you say it, whether it's through simple language that paints a picture in your audience's minds, or by using repetition to reinforce your core message.
The art of communication is all about knowing how to get into the minds of your audience. Stay there. It's easy to get lost in the noise of marketing and communications. We are all racing to capture attention, but let this episode be a reminder that once you know your 10%, the one thing you want your audience to remember, everything else falls into place.
Because communications and marketing is not about KPIs and dashboards. It's about creating a brand that shapes the right perception to drive the right behavior. Just like Carmen says, you could design a perfect presentation of a hundred slides. People will only remember the 10%, but you hope that that 10% is exactly what drives them towards the behavior that you're looking for. And it's the same with your brand. You can create all the logos and imagery and the fancy websites you want.
People will only remember the parts that made them feel something, and that's what shapes your perception and your [00:58:00] reputation, and you hope that what sticks at that point is what drives your customers towards the behavior that brings you business results.
Dino: Earning your seat isn't about passively absorbing. It's about executing. So take a moment and reflect and think about how you can use what you've just learned in this episode to grow, recalibrate, and improve. Thanks for listening. I'm Dino Delic. We'll see you next time on the next episode of Earning Your Seat.