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Welcome to The Anti-Racism Leadership Institute, where we engage in thoughtful conversations with professors and visionary leaders who are dedicated to dismantling racism in schools and transforming education. Join us as we explore their inspiring journeys, innovative strategies, and impactful initiatives aimed at creating more inclusive, equitable, and anti-racist learning environments. Our podcast is a platform for sharing insights, stories, and actionable ideas that can help shape a brighter, more just future for education. Tune in and be inspired to be a part of the change!
Welcome to the Anti-Racism Leadership
Institute Research to Practice Podcast.
Today we have the opportunity to
talk with esteemed researcher Dr.
Tuba Gezer about her research on
English learners and universal design.
Dr.
Gezer is a colleague, former
co-researcher, and current
postdoctoral researcher at Ohio State.
Let's listen in.
Welcome.
I am so glad to have you on today, Dr.
Tuba Gezer.
I feel very fortunate that you've
taken time out of your very busy
academic life and schedule to
join us here on the podcast.
Dr.
Gezer and I met back in 2017.
Where I was my second year at UNC
Charlotte as an assistant professor and
she was a doctoral student and we actually
engaged in a research project together.
She was the methodologist and I was
the PI on the project and we were
looking at, I think it was student
teacher matching or something of that
Yes.
And it's a paper that's currently
published and is out there.
I think it came on 2018 and 2019.
I can't remember.
But to start off for the listeners,
could you just start off introducing
yourself, who you are, , what
is your focus and what you do?
My name is Tuba Gezer.
Currently, I am a postdoc
at Ohio State University.
I have a PhD in Educational Research
Measurement and Evaluation, which
is a mouthful, but eventually I do
research method, I teach research
method, and also I support my own
research and other research in terms
of statistical analysis, et cetera.
So, and my research focus on English
learners, how we can, how I can support
English learners and identify what they
need in classroom as well as in their
assessment process, because majority
of them go to the assessment process
even before they are proficient, which
kind of makes sense, but then it has
also like some of the implication
that we have to think about it.
So that's like my main research area.
And also, If I need to identify the
most important thing for me to become
a researcher is educational equity.
I believe we have to provide equal
educational opportunities to all
students, but usually underrepresentative
students doesn't have enough resources
and support in school settings.
So that is my goal that is my ultimate
goal to achieve as a researcher.
Wonderful.
And we need folks who do the
research, do the quant work,
because most practitioners don't.
I do not.
Absolutely.
And I don't have time to learn this.
We appreciate folks who
do work like you do.
So tell us a little bit about
what drew you to your work
around English language learners?
Why do you choose to study this?
So I have two storylines why
I chose English learners.
One of them is I came to
the United States in 2014.
Before that I was a math teacher and I
came to the United States for grad school
but first I had to learn the language.
So and that process was like quite painful
because I knew, I know a lot, but then I
couldn't communicate anything that I know.
So that was like really challenging.
And then I start to think about
how younger kids like in K12 how
they are dealing with the same
problem, because eventually they
are not proficient in the language.
And I'm sure like they also, that
like struggle is real when you know
something and you can't say it.
So the one of the reason is my personal
experience, and another one is, I am
a Kurdish from Turkey, it's an ethnic
group in Turkey, and when I was student,
some of students were not proficient in
Turkish, but there wasn't any support
for them, and when I learn about English
learners, I think this is my way to pay
back to my community, so I have to find
out, like, how we can support students
who are not proficient in the official
language, and make sure that they reach
their full potential as a student.
Wonderful.
Wonderful.
I mean, it's very necessary.
And a lot of the school districts we
work with, they're still struggling
on many fronts, how to adjust the
education system to serve students
whose primary language isn't English.
And I think what's truly unfortunate about
it is that what I see these individuals
as sort of linguistically gifted.
If more than one language, we treat
it more as a gifted program, but
with most districts, we treat it as
like a deficit, which is our framing
around how we accept the necessity
of needing to learn other languages.
And so tell me how you apply, because I
mean, I'm, this is a genuine question,
how you apply a quantitative background.
To study English learners.
How does that even how does that work?
Oh, there are like so many ways, one
of which was part of my dissertation.
So eventually the meta analysis is one
way to summarize all the quantitative
research and try to find out the overall
effect size and test accommodation
is one way to support English
learners in their assessment process.
Eventually they can use dictionary, they
can have extra time, but how effective
all of this accommodation eventually.
And I used again like quantitative
meta analysis to answer that question
and I found out that eventually
there's a significant difference.
It helps students to demonstrate
what they know better when they
use test accommodation in their
assessment and also it doesn't give
them like any additional benefit.
It just helped them to demonstrate
their ability in that content area.
And another one is like any survey
study can be quantitative research
and also quantitative research
allow you to find the relationship
between different variables.
So, for example, if I want to
examine the difference between the
relationship between their self
efficacy, language proficiency and
their academic achievement, again,
we will need a quantitative research.
Another one is like there are a
lot of federal data set, which they
already have so many variables.
And the data is usually quantitative.
So another part of my research was
looking at the federal data set and
trying to understand the relationship
between English learners with disabilities
and their post school outcomes.
Again we mentioned about like school
district and also state assessment.
They already have data.
It is readily available and we
have to make the use of them.
So one, another study, again, like
I look at the assessment process.
I look at the content assessment and
the relationship between the language
proficiency and how these two interact
with one another to a certain degree.
So all of which, unfortunately, cannot
be answered with qualitative research.
So all roads lead to
quantitative research, right?
Says the quantitative researcher.
So I'm going to go back to your
dissertation actually because you
said something in terms of I can't
rephrase it because I'm not a quantum
person, but basically you measured
the effects of certain accommodations
on student performance on assessment.
And so for the practitioners out there who
want sort of to understand the granularity
of what you did and how to apply it to
their practice, how would you summarize
your results and what specific practices
did you find for the practitioners
out here that are beneficial?
So I think first step is kind of
just assuring them because when the
idea of like equality or everybody
should, or like standardized tests,
everybody should have the same
situation or like the same conditions.
So when a student , can use dictionary
or , can take a little bit extra time and
practitioner may think, "Oh, this
is not fair to other students.
So everybody should have
the same condition".
But everybody is not the same.
So I think the first step that I want
them to understand from my research,
just because they are taking additional
support doesn't mean that is unfair to
other students, because basically the
other students they just don't need it.
It's not like they lose something,
they just don't need it.
Even if they have it, probably they
will not use it because when we look
at the research and they allow other
native speakers to, to use those
accommodation, but it didn't really
improve their academic achievement.
But when English learners use,
it improved their academic
achievement because it helped them
to understand the question better.
So they could answer it.
So I think my first step
is just be still about it.
It is fine.
You are not like, you are not
creating an injustice in that setting
by providing the accommodation.
And I think another one is a
suggestion because research
show this can be effective.
But again, we have to make sure that
students know enough about those things.
So if students don't use like extra
time or read out loud or dictionary
in the classroom because these
resources are available to them based
on their individual educational plan.
So, but if they don't use in
classroom, then during the assessment,
they are less likely to use.
So I think my another suggestion will be
to make sure that they know about their
student's individual plan and understand
what is available those students in their
assessment process and make sure that
they can incorporate those tools in their
teaching practices so we can create an
alignment between learning environment and
testing environment for English learners.
I see.
I see.
So if I can paraphrase what you
said, I think I heard you say that
there are certain accommodations
that English learners should have
available to them extra time,
using the dictionary, read aloud.
It doesn't give them an unfair
advantage over native English
speakers, and so in the mind of
an educator, they could be thinking
like, well, it's unfair advantage.
The native speakers don't,
don't get access to them.
But what you find in your research
that even if you give these resources
to a native speaker, it doesn't
necessarily increase their score.
It just, it helps the English learner
access the language enough to then show
proficiency in the sort of the topic area.
Did I summarize that correctly?
Wonderful.
Wonderful.
So what does that look like exactly?
I, again, put it on the practice because
you, because you were a teacher, right?
And so say that you have a third grade.
I mean, I don't know
what level too, right?
Because from what I know from some of
the work we do in California to have
level one, level two, level three, level
four, and then it transitioned to no
longer needing English language services.
And so, when we talk about
accommodations, do we use, do we use
the standard accommodations across
all of mastery levels of English?
Or how do you tell which level
needs what accommodation?
So I think that is like
when it's the accommodation
translate to a universal design.
Because eventually if a word
is like really hard, even
native speaker couldn't know.
But it is not something
we want to measure.
Then we want to give that students
like the definition because that is
not what it's like in math assessment.
There is a word that I don't
know what does it mean.
I can still do the math like,
but then I don't know that word
like knowing that word doesn't
interfere with my content knowledge.
So in terms of their accommodation,
they can usually decide individual basis.
So they don't say " "Oh, this
is the bunch of accommodation.
Just give everybody whoever wants".
No, they talk to students and they
try to identify like what they need
based on like they decide individual
basis rather than a general.
But then at some point, students have
to decide, especially when they are like
getting more proficient and they are
about to exit the EL status, which they
will not be considered as EL, then it's
become " Oh, do I want to exit EL status?
Because then I will not have the
accommodation, or should I stay
here and then just make sure that I
have all the support that I need".
And that's why at certain point, we
stopped talking about accommodation
for English learners, and try to make
sure that we have universal design.
And at that point, universal design aims
to provide accessibility for all students.
But then we can still look at
what English learner needs in
that universal design setting.
I see, I see, gotcha, gotcha.
So instead of seeing it as, special
accommodations over in this pocket
with these students, it's sort of a
universal design around the understanding
of who needs what within the space.
And so could you tell me a little bit
more about your federal research, right?
So I heard you say something in the tail
end of all the research project around
looking at federal data and comparing
it EL status to lifetime outcomes.
I believe, paraphrasing that in,
in not the best way, but what
can you expand a little bit more
because I heard you mention it.
Yes, so, that was like another
research project that I did
part of my dissertation.
I feel like I like my dissertation a lot.
I feel, I talk about it all the time.
So, I guess.
When we think about intersectionality,
English learners with disabilities,
they can get the worst of the two
worlds because they can deal with
their disabilities, and also if they
are not proficient in the language,
then that, that creates like whole
different set of difficulties.
And research about them is that quite new.
I would say like last maybe five,
ten years, even before that, like
nobody was talking about English
learners with disabilities.
But thankfully, federal data
set, they start to collect data
and they follow students from high
school until they become at until
age of 25 and they try to find out
what are their Post school outcomes.
Like you said, like life outcomes, whether
they have a job or not, whether they
participate at college, it can be two
year or four year or whether they can live
alone or like in a dormitory so they don't
have to live with their families anymore.
So like independent living.
So those are the variables that I combined
them and I create a latent variable.
Try to understand what is the
probability or like what is the effect
of getting transition planning for,
again, like students with disabilities
will take a transition planning at
the end of in their high school.
So, it will prepare them to after post
graduation and then, like, how transition
planning helped them, how their parents
expectation in terms of their independent
living getting job, employment, and also
college education, how their parents
education will affect them, and also
some of the demographic variables.
And eventually my study showed that all
those variables are important, and When
we look at this model overall, we can not
only focus on one of them, it is important
to create a, create a holistic approach.
If you only look at the school
outcomes, then we are missing the
parents aspect of the support.
But then if you only focus on
this is their parents job, then
we are losing the school support.
And these are, like, important
aspects to implement in the practice.
So what can that tell us?
What can your research tell us
about studying all these sort of
characteristics of students in school
and then transitioning to adulthood?
What can your research, your findings
tell us about what schools could do
better and differently with regard
to sort of post graduation outcomes?
So family support or like inclusion,
like family inclusion can be different,
especially for adult kids and especially
if they have immigration status.
Sometimes students will have citizenship,
but their parents wouldn't have, or
parents wouldn't know enough about
these resources to be part of it.
Schools can falsely assume that oh they
just not interested in their students
and majority of time they may just not
know about it or maybe they are not
proficient in the language and they
don't feel comfortable being part of
the conversation and in some cultures
schools or teachers are the authority
and they wouldn't want to challenge that
authority by just basically saying their
side of the story or like their opinion.
And I think the inclusion and especially
Schools needs to make sure that parents
know enough about it to have an opinion.
I mean, they can just ask them
like, "Hey, what do you think?"
And maybe they didn't understand anything.
Maybe they don't know what's
going on or they don't know what
is available to them to choose.
And they're like, "Oh, we
will just like, trust you.
You can do the best".
Yes, they may know the best, but they
still have to make sure that they
understand what's going on and the
implication of those decisions that
they are making in the transitioning
planning for students and also
for parents to make sure that
they are part of the conversation.
And we hear this tagline a lot,
parent and community engagement,
parent and community engagement.
And in terms of what that actually
means, because often we'll see,
especially in our work that we'll have
parent night events, on certain days.
And then maybe, 30 percent
of parents would show up.
And the outreach is not translated.
And the event is not, they don't have
folks there to translate on site.
And then parents who do come, who
don't know the language are still
there As clueless as they are when
they came in as when they left.
And so it sounds like it's very important
to be intentional around making sure there
are opportunities for parents to learn
about how the education system works,
especially with relation to their child.
And so talk to me a little
bit about what's new and hot.
What are you working on currently?
I, okay, I, I'm going to talk about
like the one I mostly read and couple
that I am interacting with other
faculty to create as a methodologist.
So, again, I think a lot, the, I
am, okay, focus, I like systematic
reviews, and I've, I think a couple
of them are right now under review.
But then I start to create my own
project about English learners
and their academic achievement.
This is one of them.
And I am right now reviewing all
the research since No Child Left
Behind from 2001 until 2023.
Whenever they include English learner
and their academic achievements,
I include all those studies.
Those are my criteria.
And right now, we started with around like
a thousand journal article or reports.
Right now we have around 3, 000 that we
are doing full text, which I think we
have done about or the goal is to do that.
And even looking at right now,
based on our full text review, like
the half of it, I can already see
and my main goal is to understand
what are the effective strategies?
what are the important variables
that we should include when we are
thinking about English learners
and their academic achievement?
And language proficiency is the big part
of it, but at some point especially if
students, they, in the EL status more
than five years or more than three
years, then language proficiency is
not as predictive as it used to be.
So then that means obviously these
kids can speak, they can express
themselves, but they don't pass the
test or like them not passing the test.
What does it mean for
the academic achievement?
So I'm trying to understand what are
the best way to support these students
by leading and summarizing all the
research that is out there right now.
So that is one of them.
Another one, I kind of briefly mentioned
about universal design, and I'm doing
same thing for universal design.
So I was talking about quantitative
research earlier, but quantitative
research doesn't respond every question.
So eventually, when I know when I conduct
meta analysis, I could see the effect size
and I see the magnitude of effect size.
But then I wouldn't know that when
they use this, how they use this
accommodation, what else I would.
So like that quality part of
the accommodation cannot be
captured by meta analysis.
So right now I am doing a
systematic review with a couple of
my friends about English learners
and their like universal design.
I'm looking at eventually, universal
design captured the accommodations, so I'm
still including that part, but I'm mostly
looking at the how part, like what part
is effective, and how we can understand
that process better for English learners.
I'm over nodding my head
about, I know a very little bit
about universal design, right?
So I'm going to ask you to give us a short
master class on what that means exactly
and how that's different than as you
talk about just accommodations over here.
So what does that mean for the
layman of us that nod our head,
because we've heard it
before, but actually, I'm not
quite sure what that means?
So I think the like the cute part
about universal design, it start
in the architecture, and then
it was translate to education.
So, if you think like from the
architecture perspective, you
want to make sure that everybody
can access that building.
If somebody has like physical disability
or like mental or whatever, but you want
to make sure that there are multiple
ways to access to the same building.
So, take the same concept,
bring it to the education.
I want to teach them math.
Not everybody know the same way,
like somebody will use the stairs,
somebody will use the ramp, somebody
will use the the other back door.
So, there are, different ways to access
the same content, and in universal
design, you are making sure that those
different ways to understand the concept.
So eventually, universal design
for learning is giving different
ways to access the information.
The same thing about in the assessment
process, we are like just say so universal
design for learning in the classroom.
In the testing setting, we want to make
sure that If something is like looks
hard or that maybe just like providing
the pictures instead of writing down
everything in a math assessment, we
want to be intentional before they
took the assessment, what part of this
question or what part of this process
may be challenging for students or like
give them magnifier if they want to it.
Analyze the pictures or make sure
that they have a pen and pencil if
they want to write something down
or make sure that anything in the
background is not distracted, they
can focus on or they can take a break.
So all those different ways before
students take the assessment,
who is creating the test, thinks
about it and creates a way that it
is more accessible to everybody.
So it's not like only mainstream
person who doesn't have any disability
or anything, not just for them, but
like anybody who may need something
slightly different and it is easy
to incorporate in the process.
Wow.
No, I, that, that makes sense for
me that universal design in terms
of architecture, because we'll often
see on buildings, you'll see ramps,
you have elevators, you have room
numbers along with Braille, under the
number, a number of different things
where a lot of folks who regardless,
no, I mean, I don't think it's across
the board, like totally for everyone,
but as many people as possible
depending on your level of ability.
And so could you give us a for example?
So I'm a former math teacher.
I used to teach fourth grade math.
I don't know what what you taught in
terms of like your math teaching history.
So compared to how you used to teach.
And now I mean, maybe you always
been on this universal design
when you were a teacher back then.
But if you had to sort of Yeah.
Okay.
So in retrospect for those of
us who are like, wow, I want
to make one of my lessons, more
accessible to English learners.
So can you explain like just a specific
lesson and how you would, used to
teach it and how you'd make it more
along the tenets of universal design?
So, disclaimer, when I wish I knew
about universal design when I was
a teacher and I think me learning
about research and right now I am.
I am teaching introduction to research
method course, and that's when I'm
thinking about universal design still
so the first thing is thinking about
whether your tool any online tool passes
the accessibility requirement at the
universities, usually you can work with
your instructional designer and they will
help you, so, usually they will I think
they consider PDF more accessible, but
something's changed in that range, so
I haven't quite understand what's going
on in that sense, but let's think about
the content, and, again since we both
taught math let's think about math So we
are teaching, let's say multiplication.
It is different like, you can
visualize that concept different ways.
I mean, you can just write the
question, or maybe simplify the
question, or, it is not like repeating
same thing over and over again, but
showing different ways to access,
and also giving little bit more time.
Because when you know another language
or sometimes like you are distracted,
you understand what's going on,
like you understand the content,
but just responding to that content
can take a little bit more time.
So I would say like the main part is like
using visualization as much as you can
because that way you are decreasing the
language complexity of the content and
also making sure that students Express
themselves, because as a teacher, we
have a, I mean, I had that tendency.
I was like, keep saying the
same thing, and I was like
hoping they would understand.
But then learning happens when
you say something, students hear
it, something's happened in the
brain, and then when they express.
So that expression part, allowing
students to say something wrong like
creating some safe environment for them.
Like if they feel like they will be
embarrassed, nobody will say anything
and that is not only for younger kids
Like even for college students I told my
students like this is a safe place like
you may or may not know something and I
couldn't believe how relieved they were.
I was like, you guys should have know
that by now, but still as a teacher, I
don't like emphasizing that it is okay
to make mistake or like it is okay to
just express yourself and check whether
you are understanding the content or not.
So allowing students to play with
that content in a safe environment,
I think these are the one of the
suggestion that I will make and I am
using them in my own teaching as well.
One, I mean, that's one
that's great to hear, right?
Because how many times have we been in
a course about high quality instruction
and instruction is like terrible, right?
This is how you get
students to engage in it.
Three hours of someone
talking at you, right?
This happens all the time in
education, so it's glad to see that
you're researching it and you're
also applying it in your work.
So what is your hope?
So, let's say 10 years from now, Dr.
Gezer is like a prolific
researcher, 100 plus articles.
Yeah.
Peer review, full professor, making an
impact in education with English learners.
What do you hope that impact to be?
I think, first of all, differentiating
that idea of English learners, that
disassociation between English learners
and lag behind, or like their academic
achievement lower than standard, that
is a big misconception because most of
time when English learners, they, as
soon as they become proficient, their
academic achievement is actually above
many student group compared to others.
So that is one thing that I
definitely want to This created this
association, and I, my main goal is,
right now I want to identify, how
I can help them in that immediate
situation, but let them be bilingual.
Right now, at the school they are,
bilingual education, but most of them
are private and not for public schools.
Although I definitely support them
becoming proficient in English.
Don't let them lose their language
proficiency in other, like in Spanish or
in Arabic, whatever their native language.
My goal is making sure that they
can reserve their native language.
Unfortunately that is
not the case in Turkey.
Like many people right now like
younger kids cannot speak their
native language, like Kurdish.
So I don't want that to happen in
the United States to some degree.
So I think if I can see that like public
schools support English learners as
much as their English, also their native
language, and also their parents are
dedicated in that sense to make sure
that their kids learn their English,
but also preserve their native language.
That would be my dream.
I can die in peace then.
Awesome.
Well, 10 years from now,
I'm going to look it up.
Oh, major impact on English
learners, preserving language and
not seeing it as someone who's like
academic, your name was just that.
English, it's just a language
accessibility issue, which are problems
within work and within practice.
And often that's how students end
up on IEPs, individual education
plans, because educators don't
understand it's a language barrier.
It's not a knowledge barrier.
So I can't be in more agreement.
And so for those folks who are
listening and they're like, Oh my gosh,
this, this is like music to my ears.
I love her work.
I want to follow her.
I want to learn more about her research.
How do people find you?
How do they follow you?
How do they learn more about your work?
So I think like all of my publications
are on my Google Scholar page.
I have LinkedIn on my, if they want
to look at like my professional post,
which I am not very good at it, but I
promise I'm gonna do more about that.
That could be accountability.
But and I, I am more like pretty much
at the every social media except Twitter
but they can find me on like social
media, like Instagram, Facebook but
like my professional work will be on the
LinkedIn and also on my Google Scholar.
And also if they want to have a
conversation or just like connect
to some degree because of my common
interest, they can just email me at
gezer.3@osu.edu.
Wonderful.
I love it, you put it out there.
You might get some emails after this one
about folks who hopefully who listened
to this podcast and I really love what
she's doing and I want to learn more.
I really thank you so much for,
again, for taking time out of your
day to have this conversation.
I learned a lot and I really appreciate
you sharing your work, continue
to do the great work you're doing.
And thank you for coming on today.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for having me.
This was wonderful to connect with you..