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Becoming an entrepreneur takes grit.
Deciding to do it solo takes courage.
This is 1,000 Routes, the podcast where we explore the stories of solopreneurs who have made the bet on themselves to build a business that serves their life. Every episode you'll hear about the lessons they've learned and the uncommon routes they've taken to stand out in a world that is purposefully trying to commoditize them.
Shannon Curran [00:00:00]:
When I think about what I want to build, it's a life, not a business. Some people have a dream for what their business will look like. I have a dream of what my life will look like. And I want to build a business that like, allows me to have that life right. Like, there is a life that I believe is so value aligned for me that this work can absolutely help me achieve.
Nick Bennett [00:00:49]:
Hey, it's Nick, and welcome to 1,000 Routes, the podcast where I explore the stories of solopreneurs who have made the bet on themselves to build a business that serves their life. Every episode you'll hear all about the lessons they've learned and the uncommon routes they've taken to stand out in a world that is purposefully trying to commoditize them.
Shannon Curran [00:01:11]:
My name is Shannon Curran. I am the founder of SSC Consulting, which is really just a placeholder name for myself. What I do is I'm a Fractional CMO for early stage startups specifically that have founders that want to build brands. So I think of that a lot as building an authentic relationship between your founders and your prospects and their customers. It is not a LinkedIn program. It is much, much more than that. So that is what I do six.
Nick Bennett [00:01:37]:
Months ago, or at least that's when you publicly started, like, you made your announcement on LinkedIn and you were like, I here I am to do this thing. And you said, I'm going to read your own words back to you. You said you want to help organizations define. Why does it matter? And I love this because I tell people every day that they need to solve a valuable problem, but more importantly, they need to be able to communicate why that problem matters to people and how they solve it. So I'm curious, why does it matter to you?
Shannon Curran [00:02:05]:
So I came up through content brand. I've been in tech for the last like eight, eight years, and I have always kind of been the why would anyone care meter, right? It's like we're all working hard, we're all trying to build things that are great. I, like, I am kind of allergic to phoning it in. Like, I just can't do it. But I truly care, right, whether I'm working at like a digital processing platform or a supply chain platform or something that, like, I know nothing about. It's like it doesn't really matter that I don't know. It's why does it matter to the people that it needs to matter too? And I think that that is the real question that especially over the last two or so years, as tech has exploded in a bad way, it has required companies to be able to answer that question. And the reason why I existed is to facilitate the answer of that question.
Shannon Curran [00:02:50]:
Right. And I think that especially early stage companies are so in the weeds. The founders are so close to the work, the teams are so in it, and they're planning to like, next Friday, right? Like, that's about as far as they can go. So providing them with this kind of outside perspective of how are your customers talking about your product? How do you want them to talk about your product? How are your prospects understanding what you do? Are all your sales coming from your founders friends? Like, we should figure that out, right? If you can't answer that question, then you really should take steps back before you quote unquote scale, which is like the big kind of buzzword of tech, right? Which is like, we're here to scale. It's like, well, what are you scaling? Does anyone care? And if they don't care, then you're just going to end up with a scaled mess, right? Like, instead of something that you can really wrap your arms around in the beginning. So I think for me, I also wanted my work to matter. And I think that something that when I was younger, I thought had to be done in the nonprofit sector, it had to be done as a teacher, it had to be done a lot of different ways that looked nothing like the work I do now. But I think for me, my priority is working with awesome people that have great ideas, that are also good people that want to grow businesses and make jobs and fuel the economy, right? Like, that is kind of where I found my skill set works.
Shannon Curran [00:04:08]:
So I want my work to all matter. And I found in house it's never going to be the case. Right? So that's why I like being out on mail.
Nick Bennett [00:04:16]:
Your work can matter in house, but it feels so much smaller. Like you're working with one company now. Like the depth and stuff, like you could argue is there, but when you're capable of working with, I don't know, ten clients at a time, depending on the shape of your engagements, but it's like you work with multiple businesses at once and all of a sudden your impact becomes exponential. It becomes exponentially greater than it was when you were just in house. And I think it's a noble mission. It is what I would consider a legendary question. This idea is like, well, why does it matter? It's one of those things that stops a founder or anyone really kind of in their tracks, forces them to lean in a bit, tilt. They tilt their head, they look at you and they're like, I've never considered this before.
Nick Bennett [00:05:02]:
And it starts your conversation like, this idea, why does it matter? Because if they can't explain it, or they don't even know why, or they've never even considered the question, then it's really, really hard for someone to build their business, or just like it's hard for them to sell the thing. It's hard for other people to want to care, like you're saying, to do it. I think it's a noble mission. It seems like you're highly motivated to help people figure this out. So most recently, and you even said, you're like, I'm taking my own advice and I'm gonna, I'm excited by this work, so I'm gonna go get after, I'm gonna go chase it. What was the motivation for you beyond just wanting to make a bigger impact, help more people figure this thing out? Like to leave. I think you were most recently full time with MadKudu and as their vp of marketing to make this transition. Like, what was the turning point for you to get out of full time w two work?
Shannon Curran [00:05:52]:
Yeah, so I, before I was at Madcuto, I was out of UC, so I was at Openview. And while I was there, I knew I was never a VC lifer. I got poached to go there by an awesome vp of marketing that I loved and I wanted to work for her. So I was like, also, you know, money, lifestyle change, whatever. So I made that jump. And while I was there, I was like, hey, I really want to figure out, like, I would love to work earlier stage than I was before I was in the VC. I was working kind of mid market. So let me go here, let me work with the portfolio, let me work with prospects, let me build the credibility of the firm.
Shannon Curran [00:06:29]:
And then after that I'll, you know, maybe I'll go into a portfolio company, maybe I'll go into an adjacent claire. But I was like, the thing that I liked the most about it was the consulting aspect of it. I loved kind of coaching the heads of marketing at, at the port cos I loved talking to founders specifically, we were investing earlier and earlier when there was, like, so much freaking money in the market that it was, like, just trying to find places to put it. And so we were. I was working directly with some founders on some prospect work, and I was, like, wedging myself in anywhere I could in that work. And I really loved it. So I was like, you know what? I think in the long term, I want to do this, like, on my own. And my boss there had gone off and done it on her own, Margaret Kelsey, who still doing it.
Shannon Curran [00:07:10]:
And so she inspired me to be like, maybe I can do that someday, but I don't think I'm ready. So I went to MadKudu, and then I got pregnant, which is a big reason why you make choices in your life. And so went out on maternity leave with every plan to come back and work full time, no problem at all. But there was a lot of changes in the organization that happened with me gone. And so I came back and realized that they didn't need a VP of marketing. Like, there was no marketing team. They were wonderful to me. Very caring.
Shannon Curran [00:07:40]:
Let me come back. Had a plan for me when I came back, but I was like, guys, if I was advising you, I would say, you do not need to be paying a vp of marketing. Like, this doesn't make any sense with a. They're pivoting their product. They were doing a few other things. And, like, I think what you need is a Fractional vp of marketing. So I guess maybe this is my time, right? Like, it kind of felt like, you know, it was one of those things where it felt like the universe was, like, pushing me into this place. I was never going to feel comfortable to go.
Shannon Curran [00:08:07]:
And I also had a five month old baby, right? And so thinking about the opportunity to, you know, my husband, it works. He's a union electrician, so he has all of our benefits. Like, even when he's laid off, which he has been for a long time, actually, this is a weird time.
Nick Bennett [00:08:22]:
We still have electrician work.
Shannon Curran [00:08:24]:
Yeah. You still have all of his benefits. Like, I. It felt like kind of a no brainer to at least try. And the value. I was getting so much return of, like, getting time back with my child, too, to be able to have a more flexible schedule. I didn't mind working a lot. I just wanted to be able to work when I wanted to work.
Shannon Curran [00:08:39]:
Right? And MadKudu was West coast and all these things, like. And I also just knew this role was not going to exist. Like, I just knew, right? And so I talked to the CEO. He was super supportive of it. And so I stayed on as their Fractional vp for a few months while I kind of looked for some more clients. And that was when I kind of announced that I was going to do this. It actually happened pretty quick. Like, I'm not a slow build unless I'm procrastinating something and not doing anything right.
Shannon Curran [00:09:02]:
Like that is like, I am pretty quick. So that's what kind of got me there. And I did have, I had a mentor that had done this, that really helped walk me through this process and actually brought me onto my first big client. And then, yeah, I've been kind of jamming solo ever since. It has highs and lows, but I think all in all, I definitely feel like I'm on the right path. But I think especially for where I'm at in my life right now, kids.
Nick Bennett [00:09:28]:
Will do that to you. Yeah, I remember when I got laid off in June of 2023, so June of last year, and it was like a similar thing. I was like, hmm, I have a nine month old and my wife's full time mom. And I was like, trying to find work right now is crazy. Trying to find a VPN marketing role or something like that, compete with 2000 other people for another job? Or is it like I just go out and make some damn money, go provide for and go figure it out? Like, the kid needs to eat and is going to grow and outgrow his clothes whether or not I'm working. It was like, you kind of got to figure it out. And it's the forcing function that, that I needed because I was in the same way. I was like, maybe it's not the right time.
Nick Bennett [00:10:13]:
I don't know. And then you find yourself in this position where you're like, all right, well, something's got to give because this kid's going to need something. So however the money shows up in the bank account, the baby does not care whether it's through an employer or not.
Shannon Curran [00:10:25]:
Yeah, I used to say babies make you brave because you have to.
Nick Bennett [00:10:28]:
That is such a phenomenal saying. Babies do make you rave because the risk management meter is like, all is recalibrated the second that kid shows up because you're like, oh, like, I'm willing to do things that I otherwise wouldn't, would not be willing to do or I would be a lot slower about doing it.
Shannon Curran [00:10:46]:
And me too, I also realized, like, the cost of time is, was so high, right? So like, I was making great money. I had been for the last, like three years I had been in kind of VP roles where I was making more money than I ever thought I'd see, which is still not a lot of money for people in tech, I will say, but for me, like, I live in a suburb, I live like, well within our means. Like, I was like, do I need to be making this much money and never seeing my kid? That is the other thing that I was thinking is it's like I hopefully could work half the time and make the same money, which in theory is what you do when you start your own business. You try and do that. But if I made half, would be okay and I'd still think this was the right choice. Yes. That is what I had to keep coming back to is like, if your kid goes to bed at six and you're working at a west coast company, you'll see them on their first birthday. It just is what it is, right? And I think that there's so much value of, like, I wanted to be like, my son's still full time in daycare.
Shannon Curran [00:11:39]:
I didn't want to stay at home, I wanted to work. I love what I do. I'm so passionate about things that I work on and people I work with, but I knew I wanted it all, but not all of it all at the same time. So how could I find this mix that worked for me?
Nick Bennett [00:11:54]:
I totally get that. Like, spending time with the kid becomes the point. It just becomes the whole point of the whole reason for doing the work. So you said MadKudu basically became your first client. There was that in your first consulting client, you came on as your, you restructured your deal with them to go Fractional. Your mentor made an introduction to you for you, just mentioned to your first big client, how are you acquiring so is. And maybe I'm mixing, getting mixed up here, but how did you really acquire, like, your first client? And I don't know if that was the one that your, your mentor had introduced you to or whatever, but how, how are you going about that right now?
Shannon Curran [00:12:35]:
At this point, everything has been referrals. So it's been people I've worked with, people I knew. It was exciting, said a lot of inbound at the beginning, but I will say closing them has been really challenging. This shit is not for the week. It has been a little more challenging. Like, I've had a lot of excellent conversations. But the closing is hard, right? Especially because Fractional leadership is. I know people love to say it's super saturated, sure.
Shannon Curran [00:12:58]:
But it's also a very new concept, so not every startup is thinking this way. So you're not a line item in a budget necessarily. You're not like, so you're finding they see value in you, but they don't know how to, like, where to take money from to spend on you. So still looking for product market fit. A little early stage, but I did find my first client through my mentor. She like, she was their Fractional CMO. They were looking to start a marketing agency for their customers. And she was like, I trust Shannon to pretty much do anything.
Shannon Curran [00:13:26]:
So like, and I was like, cool, thanks. Didn't really validate my product market fit, but it did validate that people trust me and want to hire me to do so. So I worked with them for three months, a little over three months, and then she ended up actually going in house. So the structure of the team changed and they deprioritized. Kind of like the work that I was brought in to do, which is totally fine. It was not like, it wasn't me. It was just like literally the thing I was hired to do, they put on the back burner till next year. So I have pretty good faith that I will come back around to them.
Shannon Curran [00:13:55]:
But it was a really great spring and summer for me and taught me a really big lesson that I gave them about 25 hours of my week, which meant I wasn't doing business development at all. And I learned the hard way that even if people I trust, they were saying like, oh, I think we're going to need you more. I think we're going to need you more. And then at the end of a month, they're like, actually, we don't need you at all. Which is pro and con of being a contractor is it's very easy to turn on and off. Right. For me and for them, I then was like, oh, God, like, I have no pipeline. Like, no real pipeline.
Shannon Curran [00:14:27]:
Like, I had a lot of conversations. I was talking to people all the time. I had a bunch of deals that didn't quite go through or got pushed to next quarter or whatever, right? So now I have a lot more. I have a bunch of small clients. I'm doing more project based work. Honestly, I'm nothing in the perfect mix right now. I don't love the current mix of my work right now. I'd love like one Fractional CMO job and like two advising jobs or something like that.
Shannon Curran [00:14:52]:
Like, I would love that. Right now I have like five small projects that are like kind of taking a lot of time and not paying me nearly as much as that one big client was right. So I'm trying to figure it out. I've joined a bunch of communities, which has been really helpful, but I haven't done any, like, cold outreach at all. I'm not even sure if that works because I feel like people hire us because they trust us. Like, so how do you know me? I just don't know if it's worth the value there. But, yeah, so it's all referral and all through between these and people that I know.
Nick Bennett [00:15:19]:
So many follow ups here. So did you go out and ask, did you tell me, like, hey, I'm in business now? This is a hurdle that a lot of people struggle to clear, which is why I'm so interested in this idea is like, because referrals seem very haphazard or they feel very haphazard. And I tell people, if you, if you're gonna win in this business, you gotta be, you gotta be able to ask for what you want. And when you're, when you do that, the referral engine turns on. So it's like, did you go out there and tell me, hey, I'm out here offering consulting services now I'm a business of one. Like, if you. Do you have any work? Is that basically what happened?
Shannon Curran [00:15:56]:
So it was basically. So I posted on LinkedIn, which was great. I told, like, all of my, I kind of think in my, like, own personal. The thing, one of the things I think makes people really good at this job other than having a specialized skill, I think those people are, like, really good at this job. But I think people that are great at, like, the strategic leadership portions of this job are the ones that already are great at cultivating a network that continues to, like, feed on itself and you keep connected to that doesn't feel skeezy and networky. Like, it just is. Like I'm, I kept in contact with lots of people I've worked with over the years, and I fostered those relationships. And now when I went back to them and kind of said, hey, by the way, I'm out on my own, it didn't feel like I was asking anything of them.
Shannon Curran [00:16:37]:
It was just like another check in, right. And so I went to a few key people that I thought could be helpful. Went back to the VC, right, that I was with, did a bunch of intros and kind of talked to a bunch of other people that are also Fractional, that are, like, killing it. And so they have kind of watershed. Right. So they have, like, too much. And so was getting some referrals from those folks talked to some agencies that were looking for partners. Yeah.
Shannon Curran [00:16:58]:
I went all everywhere and just said, I'm open for business. I think the scariest thing is defining your offerings because you're like, I haven't checked to see if anyone wants these. Like, I. It's right. Like, I think they do. This is me. Like, every. I would tell every founder not to do this, right? Like, just go out and try and sell a thing that you don't know anyone wants.
Shannon Curran [00:17:20]:
Right. But it's taken some time to validate, like, my pricing, my packaging, things like that. I was really amazing how open some people will be about their pricing and some people won't. I am super transparent about my pricing one on one. Like, if you meet with me one on one, I'll tell you, especially with other women, because I think that there's, like a huge. Being a huge disservice to yourself if you're not charging what you're worth. But I do think I turned down some work at the beginning that I should have taken because I was told not to. Not to take work that's less than what my hourly rate should be.
Shannon Curran [00:17:54]:
Right. But I don't know. You never know how those things are going to turn out. Right. Like, you're not sure.
Nick Bennett [00:17:58]:
Yeah. Andrew Kaplan told me when I interviewed him. He goes, diapers are better than no diapers. So, like, clients are better than no clients. It's like sometimes you just take the, you just do the work and you navigate your way through it. So, like, there's no right or wrong answer to that situation. It's just whatever it is that you want to do. And I think, like you, we all learn the lesson.
Nick Bennett [00:18:19]:
How do you figure out what a good fit client looks like? You take on a bunch of bad fit clients that says, the only way. I don't care what anybody says, they're like, oh, well, you should just be better at discover whatever it's like. No, like, you just go through the motions. You figure it out. Because doing this work is ever evolving. Like, it doesn't. I don't care what anybody says. It's.
Nick Bennett [00:18:39]:
It is like, unless they have been doing this work for way too long and they have lost sight of the path, they've lost the plot if they think that people just always have it all figured out.
Shannon Curran [00:18:51]:
The hard thing is, too. For me, actually, this, it's a little bit dissonant that the things I'm really good at, or the higher paid consulting hours, like, I am good at strategy, I'm good at big picture thinking. I'm good. What I'm bad at is actually the cheap stuff. Like you want me to run your social media accounts and like build a calendar and like run a bunch of stuff that you want to pay someone dollar 75 an hour for. But actually that will take me twice as long that if I get on a consulting call with you for a few hundred dollars an hour to give you some insight into what I've seen across, like, people that have gone from PLG to SLG. Right. Like, that's actually so much more.
Shannon Curran [00:19:27]:
My brain is better at it too. Like, it just is the nature of, like, who I am. And I'm not being like, pretentious about that. It just is like what it is. I'm not detail oriented. I almost, I've thought many times of making that my tagline. Like, I'm just not like. And I'm thoughtful.
Shannon Curran [00:19:42]:
Right. Those are two different things. Right. Like, I'm mindful. Right. But I'm not. Like, I should not build your spreadsheets to track your campaigns. Like, I should not launch your Google Ads.
Shannon Curran [00:19:52]:
It's just going to take me so much time. But I could coach your team to be the most high performing folks. They could be that. I've spent a lot of time cultivating that skillset. So I'm good at it.
Nick Bennett [00:20:02]:
Yeah. I mean, well, this is tactics. This is like leadership strategy, tactics. Like all these different things here, especially when the further up the chart you go, the less connected to the tactical work you generally become. And you're not going to be the fastest button clicker in HubSpot. Like, it's just not you generally. That skill tends to decay over time because you're not clicking buttons in HubSpot very often. You're in meetings, you're coaching people, you're doing the thing.
Nick Bennett [00:20:32]:
You're building deck strategy, getting by and.
Shannon Curran [00:20:34]:
Talking to the board.
Nick Bennett [00:20:35]:
That's exactly it. Right? Like you're getting buy in from the board, you're going on the roadshow trying to get buy in from the strategy and all the stuff. Yeah, pitching your deck. So pitching the deck, all that stuff. So I'm with you, but you said that you were like people. I think people with specialized skill tend to do really well. And you're like, I wish I had that. I think this is my perception.
Nick Bennett [00:20:59]:
Having had these conversations with dozens and dozens of solopreneurs. At this point, every single person has the specialized, has a specialized skill. You just have to commit to one. Like, you have to strip off the other ones or put them on the back burner bury them inside of the one you want to pick and pick one and use that as your specialized skill, right? Like create this, this wedge in the market between you and all other Fractionals. And all of a sudden, like, the, your perception of the market changes. So, like, you have it. I just want you to know that, like, you can pick a thing and you have it and it's just a matter of deciding. And it's scary.
Nick Bennett [00:21:38]:
Some people don't want to do it, but it just depends on, and I asked this question of everyone, it's the most important question in this business, which is, how do you want to grow? That's it. It's like, do you want to be known for this very highly specific thing? Do you want to be known for this other, like, what is the thing? So it is like a struggle that most solos face. I mean, everybody faces it, really. Like, even, like, the tech companies faces, big agencies face this problem for sure.
Shannon Curran [00:22:08]:
Yeah, I definitely know that I have kind of a niche and a skillset. Like, I purposely have niche down to companies that have founders that want to build brands because that is something that I do that a lot of people don't do. Right. Like, that is something. And also, I really like working with those types of companies, too, which I think it tells a lot about. ICP is a lot about mindset, too. It's not just about, like, where I fit, but I think what I'm saying earlier is the people that crush it are the people that fix technical stuff that no one wants to fix. Like, I have friends that are in, like, rev ops or doing, like, ABM, but they're doing really what they're doing is like installing six sense and fixing the data.
Shannon Curran [00:22:45]:
Like, those people have business forever, but they do stuff I don't want to do, and I'm not good at doing. Right. But I think it's so interesting that it is, like, there are certain kind of, like, products in this kind of consulting market that are super huge because no one wants to hire that person full time. They just want to hire them when they have problems. And so it's kind of like a fix it, right? Like, which is kind of interesting.
Nick Bennett [00:23:10]:
Yes.
Shannon Curran [00:23:11]:
I think those are kind of two different profiles I've found. I'm sure you talk to even more of these people than I do, but.
Nick Bennett [00:23:15]:
Oh, you're absolutely right. And I'm on my soapbox here. I wasn't even necessarily considering, like, that productized technical skill set. I need to get her on this show. There's a woman named Lauren Ryan, she owns a company called Coastal Consulting. And just like you were describing her, her thing is HubSpot salesforce integrations. But fixing it, she's like, nobody wants to touch this thing. That's what I do.
Nick Bennett [00:23:36]:
I fix this thing. I untangle this bowl of spaghetti for you, and I'm like, that is such a great business. It is so perfect. And so it's exactly what you're talking about.
Shannon Curran [00:23:45]:
Absolutely. Something I don't want to do.
Nick Bennett [00:23:46]:
And that is nobody wants to do it. Nobody wants to but her. And you know what? She's really phenomenal business out of it. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is really, really cool. So you had also mentioned this idea, and I think it's an important thing to zoom in on a bit. You were like, I had this one client, it was big client, 25 hours a week, and also one day, there was no hours, like one day, one month, and next, it kind of just stopped.
Nick Bennett [00:24:10]:
I think this idea of a client impact values, it gets lost on us because it's like the big client feels really good for obvious reasons, but then when one client owns too much of your portfolio, that can happen. And you had alluded to this mix of clients, and I think it's going to ebb and flow. At least in my own business, I've found it to ebb and flow, where there's, I try to keep my biggest client under 20% of the total portfolio just because I don't want to take a massive hit when that client eventually graduates or whatever. Life things happen in new part ways because all clients come to an end at some point. How are you thinking about managing that? I know you were saying you have some smaller projects that are in various stages right now. How do you think about managing that portfolio mix?
Shannon Curran [00:25:02]:
I think a lot of these things you have to learn as you grow. My goal with my business also was to work about 25 hours a week and make my full time salary. That was my goal, and this client did that. So it was really hard for me to look at that and say no. Right. And it was working with someone I knew and trusted. It was doing all that, right. So it was challenging for me to.
Shannon Curran [00:25:24]:
And I think the thing that I keep coming back to is I'm doing excellent work and providing value as long as they need that value. When that stops, even for a short period of time, it may come back. But I know that, like, they had a great experience with me, and so that's not lost. Right. And I think what I would have done, though, is worked an extra few hours a week to have some pipeline ready if they did go away. Right? Like, I. I'm fine. If every year I take July off, maybe I do.
Shannon Curran [00:25:54]:
That's possible. And also, I worked a bunch for nothing this July, right? Like, because I did, like, two small, tiny things, but, like, everyone was on vacation. Like, a lot of my connections are in VC. They were all gone. Like, they were like, oh, they were out. And so a part of me is still trying to figure out the cyclical nature of my business, too, which is like, there probably will be busier times and slower times. I just don't know what those are because I haven't done a full calendar yet. So, yeah, I think my, my preferred mix would be to have one client.
Shannon Curran [00:26:22]:
I'm like 10 hours a week at their Fractional CMO. I am kind of, like, helping them build. Like, I'm a little more in their business. And then I have been working with an agency as, like, their first kind of like, strat hire. Like, they are two gals that started a creative consulting firm, and they've started to get so big that each of the founders can't be on every account. Right. Like, needed someone to kind of bring in to lead some of them. And so I've started working with them, and I enjoy that they do all the BD, which is nice, right.
Shannon Curran [00:26:53]:
But obviously, I make less money. I charge them less than if I was, like, working directly with a client. And then I have been taking on some small business clients, which is a horrendous idea for my time and my money. But it's kind of a great experience that I feel like I've always wanted, which is, like, giving my skill set that has always felt very Silicon Valley to, like, my local community, which is, I live in a suburb in Massachusetts. My family lives in New Hampshire. There's lots of folks. Like, I'm currently rebuilding a website for a guy that runs his own coaching business, and I'm redoing a website for a local photographer. And I'm doing also, like, I'm not a website designer, which is hysterical, but to them I am, right, so it's.
Nick Bennett [00:27:35]:
You'Re a wizard, basically.
Shannon Curran [00:27:38]:
So I can make a wix landing page. So for me, like, I always want to have some brain space to do that work, right. Like, I'm working for a Montessori play gym that is moving locations, right? Like, I want to have space for that. So I would really love to have, like, one to two to potentially three big tech clients that are kind of where I have all of my expertise, and then I can kind of give some of my time away to these other folks that I like working with.
Nick Bennett [00:28:02]:
So I love that. I think one of the hard calculation to make is, like, I want to work 25 hours a week. And when we say that, at least when I first started doing this workshop, I was like, oh. Like, I can only. I don't have to work, like, the 40 hours work week. You can just work how much or how little you want. And I was like, oh, if I do 30 hours of client work each week, like, I don't have 40 hours of client work each week. Cause if I do that, then I end up working 50 hours of 60 hours.
Nick Bennett [00:28:32]:
I need to, like, type on slack and responding emails and, like, upload.
Shannon Curran [00:28:37]:
And your receipts.
Nick Bennett [00:28:38]:
Yes. Yes. Like, I need to, like, manage.
Shannon Curran [00:28:41]:
I have them sitting right here that I have not done. I have not done them, Nick.
Nick Bennett [00:28:45]:
I know. My accountant's gonna kill me. Like, all of these, like, I gotta, like, upload, you know, like, all the little things was like, okay, so I can't plan. You learn the hard way. All right, well, I can't plan 40 hours of client work, so let's plan 30 hours of client work each week. And once I do 30 hours, that kind of puts me at 40 hours with all the random stuff. And it's like, even just context switching takes out, like, if you think about context switching, and you couldn't even possibly do 40 hours of meetings because, like, you go to the bathroom, you take lunch. Like, you do stuff, right? Like, I work out of my house, and my.
Nick Bennett [00:29:16]:
Sometimes both kids are upset at the same time, and my wife's like, hey, can you, like, help one of them or.
Shannon Curran [00:29:22]:
Sure.
Nick Bennett [00:29:22]:
Of course. Like, that's the point, right? I'm with you, and it's like trying to manage. So 25 hours a week is, like, more like 15 or 20 hours of actual client work to maintain that boundary. So it's like trying to manage that. There's no perfect science to it. It's just like, you just got to make it work. And sometimes I'm like, hmm. After dinner, if I can upload this receipt, it will save me a lot of time.
Nick Bennett [00:29:46]:
It will. It will save me a lot of time and effort to not try to do it first thing Monday morning.
Shannon Curran [00:29:52]:
And I think the other hard part, too, is having one big client cuts down a lot on the, like, kind of back and forth. So that's the thing. Right now, I have a bunch of small clients that equal about half of the revenue I was making. For that big one, it's three times the work, right? Because of the, like, communication between them, making sure I'm sending all of their invoices at the right time. Because some of them are project based, some are retainer, and they are all different types of work. So the context switching, like you were saying. So I'm allowing myself to, like, kind of surrender to the process a little of like, let's just ride this wave. Let's figure it out.
Shannon Curran [00:30:28]:
Let's do my best. Let's try it. I'm just saying yes to stuff right now. Not everything. I've said no to quite a few things. I know I'll find some equilibrium, but my husband reminds me, he's like, you thought you were going to start this thing and it was going to be perfect from the beginning. He's like, you are just building. And I'm like, I know.
Shannon Curran [00:30:43]:
I just hate that. It's like, I know it's true, but I'm still trying to, like, this is a business, whether you want to think it or not. If you want to build it in a way that's going to grow and it's going to kind of be the right future for your family, which for me is kind of why I'm doing it, is, you know, it's going to take some time to figure out what that mix looks like and how much kind of capacity you have as a human to do it.
Nick Bennett [00:31:07]:
Totally. Is there something that you're doing right now that you feel like, like, holy shit, this is the thing. Like, it's working. Like, this is the thing I really want to double. I want to go into, because I'm a huge fan of packaging programs and creating these kind of offers because it makes our life really, really easy. And you got to go through the variety of things to really see it for yourself. Is there something that's going on that you're doing right now that you're, that you feel like is the scaffolding of will become that for you?
Shannon Curran [00:31:36]:
I feel like there's two things that are coming out for me right now. I do think I'm a really good Fractional CMO. I do. Like, I think that is something like, if you have a really junior marketing team or you have just, like, one kind of, like, individual contributor and you need someone to come in and create some strategy, communicate to your founders, communicate to your board, that I feel like is a really good fit for me. But the other two things that I think are popping out that are interesting is, as I'm working with this branding agency, I'm layering business strategy into the calls that wouldn't necessarily be there and I'm finding that being a huge value add to the client. Right. Which is you're doing a rebrand, but if you're, if you're an early stage company, what you're really doing is building business strategy. The brand is just like the, like shell casing of that.
Shannon Curran [00:32:19]:
But you have to answer a ton of questions about your business to be able to do that work. And most of them have not answered them. What I'm currently talking to a company that we were just doing a rebrand for about how they used to be a subscription model. Now they want to potentially go into PLG. So like, I'm consulting them on their pricing, not their brand. And I actually, I was feeling you get off one of those calls and you're like, dang, I just provided so much value that they didn't think they were going to get. And it felt really easy and exciting for me. Like, I loved that.
Shannon Curran [00:32:46]:
So kind of like a strategic adjacent to brand work. And then the other one is coaching and mentoring, kind of like up and coming, like manager, senior manager, marketing folks on how to work best as like a business impact leader that understands the full business. Because that's what made me successful in my career is that I was a marketer that understood way more than marketing. And I think that that's, you know, I could speak the language of finance. It's not just because I got an MBA, but I think that definitely helped. But I always had a good relationship with sales because I always understood if they weren't successful, I wasn't like it was. I understood how to talk to products because I knew what they cared about. And I think that, that coaching marketers on that stuff is something I really love doing because I know it worked for me.
Shannon Curran [00:33:30]:
So it's, it's something that I really like doing. So those two, like secondary, those offers are the ones that are kind of bubbling up as the ones I'm liking the most and are feeling also the least like work, which is kind of what you want to do, right?
Nick Bennett [00:33:43]:
Yeah, that's kind of the .1 of the things I haven't thought a ton about but has always been lingering. Was this idea that Fractional cmos, because there are a lot of people out there who make this claim.
Shannon Curran [00:33:55]:
Yes.
Nick Bennett [00:33:55]:
And it's really hard to understand the difference between all Fractional cmos. Like, there's very few that say, like, there's a lot of Fractional cmos out there. But if you want to grow like this, then you need me. Like, trying to put forward, like, this is the way that I choose to operate and help you build this business versus, and it makes it easy for people to opt in and opt out. And I think this is like the struggle of the Fractional CMo, because they'll just tell you, I can do this. And it's like, I, like, I know you can, but, like, what does this look like? And that's such a hard thing for people to answer. And it's like, I work with a ton of Fractional cmos, and I've spoken with a bunch, especially even on this show. And it's like, a lot of times it's this, it's like the same, it's the same story.
Nick Bennett [00:34:42]:
And so I think a lot of people pick it because it's simple. Like, it's something that people can inherently just get very quickly. Even though, even then you're not the first person to tell me. Market acceptance for Fractional cmos is, like, still kind of, like, weird. Some people accept it and some people don't, or some people invest in it, some people don't. But they get what it is. And so I think that there's, the fact that it's easy to get is really, really desirable versus trying to create something a little more non obvious. I think the whole point is being able to describe your approach to Fractional CMO ing is probably the most mission critical thing, is how it's going to be so much easier for anyone to do that.
Nick Bennett [00:35:28]:
Because I've had people even come to show me things like Fractional head of demand generation. Like, why is that? And it's like, well, that could be a lot of different things. The acceptance piece of the market isn't quite there because it's frustrating. You have a lot of trust built up with a lot of people. And so when you get referred in, they're like, oh, you need this thing. Shannon can do this thing. And it's like, it builds that foundational stuff right from the jump. But in order for someone to go out there and say, I think I need this, how would they ever know?
Shannon Curran [00:36:04]:
I know. And I think it's interesting you say this, because I didn't call myself a Fractional cmo when I launched my business at all. I called myself a Fractional marketing leader. Also, people love to shit on people for calling themselves cmos that have never been cmos. It's like, okay, guys, we're just, there are 40,000 marketing titles we just pitched the shortest one. And I agree that there probably are some that are terrible. Like, just, like, there's everything that are terrible. But I.
Shannon Curran [00:36:28]:
I got the. The advice to just say, Shannon, what you're doing is Fractional cmoing. So just, like, call it that and then find a way to differentiate yourself. Right. And this came from another person that's a Fractional cmo. Right. So what I really am doing is I want to go in and make your team better. Like, I want to make sure your team can operate so I can get out.
Shannon Curran [00:36:46]:
I don't want to be on your budget for two fiscal years. My point is to come in and say, is your marketing leader working well? Do you have the right people on your team? Do you have the right structure and the right strategy? Do you have all these things? And then once you do, amazing, you can make me an advisor if you want. Or, like, I can go right. And, like, my job here is. That is what I would love to be doing more of. And I think that it conversations like these I always say yes to because it reminds me that it's important for me to keep doing it right, which is a really good coach. I'm really good at hiring. Like, that's pretty much it.
Shannon Curran [00:37:18]:
You know what I mean? I'm good at other marketing stuff. But I've always joked that, like, I could probably do this in other functions. Like, I just really like people and making sure they're doing the best that they can be at their job and they're making sure they're in the right ones. Right. So I think that's probably really it. And then that's kind of what I'm doing for a founder when I'm talking about founder brand, too. I'm really just building a platform for them to be their most authentic self and be the best at what they're doing and then getting that message to your prospects where they are. It really all is the same thing.
Nick Bennett [00:37:43]:
I really love how when I ask you what you do, you niched on, like, the problem. You didn't niche on the vertical. You weren't like tech companies who do marketing. I'm there. It's like, you were like, hey, people who want to use their leverage, their founder, to, like their expertise and their passion to build their business and they're struggling to do that. Like, that's where I come in, that's where I play. That is one is refreshing because, like, I tell everybody niche on the problem and it's like the vertical and the, like, all that other type of positioning is more so a lens and a filter than it is like, your homepage copy that anyone's going to read and be like, oh, that must be for me, like, so I greatly, greatly appreciate that. How did you get to this founder brand? I don't want to say.
Nick Bennett [00:38:35]:
I don't want to say, how'd you get to this founder brand place? Like, how did you decide to niche down in that? Into that, really?
Shannon Curran [00:38:41]:
So when I came up and came up through content, the thing I was actually really good at was ghostwriting. I was really good at working with executives to understand what they were trying to say, capturing their voice and being able to package it in a way that worked and that they loved. Like, that is something that I was like, oh, like me, I'm actually not that great of a writer, but I'm really good at being kind of a lens for someone else to tell their story in a way, to package it in a way that really resonates for them and for their audience. Right. And so then I grew into someone that, like, then understood how to apply that to business and understand how to quantify that and measure that, which a lot of people are very scared of, and the impact it can have on a business. Right? Like, how do you take those voices and really build programs behind them, right? Like, how do you, or build campaigns and platforms behind those people, right? And so I then was actually, the reason why I got the job at Openv is because I done so much of this at Quickbase, which is where I was before, and they were interested in building platforms for their, their investors, right? So for their partners and so working with them, it really is a little bit of product marketing, a little bit of brand marketing, some content marketing, right. And then understanding how to quantify that and the impacts that it's had on the business. Right.
Shannon Curran [00:39:56]:
In BC, it's a little bit different, but it is pretty, pretty much the same. And then as I went into, when I went to MadKudu, the problems were different, right? Like, it really was like, I didn't get into this work as much as I would have liked to because there was, like, a lot of stuff going on, mostly around demand that needed to be solved. So when I went out on my own, I was really talking about, like, what is the thing that I've done that I feel like a lot of people haven't? And the thing that I really love doing, and it was through conversations with tons of other solopreneurs. And that's something I'm really glad that I've done is I've, I talked to at least two or three folks a week that are also out on their own, kind of building my own network of co workers, right. To really see how they're doing and what they're doing and learning from them. And this really felt like a differentiator for me. It's not the only thing I do that's the hardest part about being out on your own is like, yeah, but I do more, right? Like, but I can do a bunch of, you know, like you can hire me for other things. But I've tried to hold fast in the idea that I really do think for early stage companies, this is a huge lever for growth and it's something that a majority of them, if not all of them, cannot figure out.
Shannon Curran [00:40:58]:
And so I'm hopeful that it will start to really click and start to ill start to build more pipe that looks repeatable like this offer. And I have some, but its a little bit clunky right now. But thats how I got there. Like should I be your first marketer that sets up your Salesforce instance? No, I should not. If you need like a deep demand problem, I probably can look at it and say if it actually is one or if its not, and then I can hire an awesome person to fix it, but I shouldn't be the one that does it. So I think there is some self awareness required in here too, about the things I'm really good at and the things I'm, you know, maybe not.
Nick Bennett [00:41:35]:
I feel you on this mission. I think it is. There's not a lot of people doing it and there's not and, or there's like a lot of people doing it in they position in a different way, they'll be like 1 hour of your time for 400 LinkedIn posts. And it's like that commoditizes what this is supposed to be. This isn't a transaction where you yap into zoom or into riverside for an hour and someone hacks it into bits and turns it into 10,000 posts. I think that that mentality has kind of soured a lot of people's approach or people's opinion of it. And to take that back into it's something more thoughtful. A lot of founders will even say, like, I want to get out of founder led sales.
Nick Bennett [00:42:22]:
Like, I don't want to be the face of the business, but I think it's important enough that the founder does have a voice. And I think if you look at some of the most successful businesses, whether it's in tech professional services or anything in between, like in the beat. In B two B. I mean, even largely now in B two C, you see it all over, like Instagram, it's getting. It's getting out of control. But that's a whole other podcast. But it's important enough for them to do. And the really successful companies are doing it.
Nick Bennett [00:42:49]:
Like, they're able to leverage their point of view and that insight appropriately. And it's not just like they yapped at the camera and we turned it into, and we chopped it into bits. It's something way more intentional. So I feel the conflicting, like the pull from people who are like, I want to get out of this. Like the founders who want to get out.
Shannon Curran [00:43:07]:
Yep.
Nick Bennett [00:43:07]:
And the founders who were like, I'd rather double down on this and get out of doing all the other stuff.
Shannon Curran [00:43:13]:
So I think it's in. If we go back to the original question of why does it matter? If they can't answer that, who else will care?
Nick Bennett [00:43:21]:
That's exactly right.
Shannon Curran [00:43:23]:
And I'm not saying they have to lead sales. I actually hope they have less time to lead sales because they're so busy evangelizing the problem that they're solving. Right. And that is they are create. Well, go back to, can you create demand? People love to have that question. But like, go back to creating, making people problem aware of. Right. That is what a founder can do really well.
Shannon Curran [00:43:43]:
And I've worked with executives. It also can be executives too. I just niche it down to founder because I work mostly early stage, and also founders don't leave. Typically executives do. So there. It's a little bit like long term, sure. But I think there's this idea that people think it's always LinkedIn program, it's a podcast, it's all these. It's like, no, the kind of framework I use is who is the person? What are they awesome at? How do they communicate best? And what is the kind of thought leadership platform, for lack of a better word, differentiator that they care about? What's the problem they're solving? Then I build what I call a watering hole map, which is like, where are your prospects? What do they care about? Who do they listen to? Are they on discord? Sorry, devtools.
Shannon Curran [00:44:22]:
You're going in. It just is what it is. Right? Like, can you imagine if you started a LinkedIn program for a CEO of a dev tool? Like, it would just be so disingenuous, right? Like, it just wouldn't. It just wouldn't make any sense, right? It's just how you do good marketing, this is just an integrated campaign. Right. And then you scale that thing if you want to, but sometimes you don't have to, right? Like, it can be one on one. If you have a huge acv like, kind of really large enterprise system, you only need to close ten to 15 deals a quarter. It's okay for your founder to be the strategy, to be one to one, one to very few.
Shannon Curran [00:44:56]:
That's an excellent strategy for that business. But the way that we've thought about founder brand before has been like very separate from the business strategy, it seems. So the way I talk about it.
Nick Bennett [00:45:06]:
Is at that level, completely like the level that I think, like the Dave Gerhard book stuff. Like the way that I understand it is if you're small, it can work, but like, at a certain level, all of a sudden it becomes like a completing competing priority. Very interesting way to go about it. But I believe you have a rock solid niche there in the, I bring dev tools to market. I could, I create mind sharing devtools on discord. Like, that's a niche.
Shannon Curran [00:45:35]:
I know. Yeah. Maybe I should get really good at one channel, but not quite yet.
Nick Bennett [00:45:40]:
That's a niche right there. I think that's, that's hilarious, though. Someone take that idea, please.
Shannon Curran [00:45:45]:
Yeah, someone take. And you can work for me if you want.
Nick Bennett [00:45:48]:
Yeah, there you go. I'll show you how to do it. It's been six long and also probably short months, but looking back, what's something you would have done differently?
Shannon Curran [00:45:58]:
I would have been more thoughtful about pipeline build and really thought more about my sales process, understood my sales process a little more. Those are probably the two big things. I would have probably also asked more questions of other folks that are doing this instead of feeling like I had to come off like I was already successful. I think that's a huge thing in this community, is you have to act like you're always doing well because you made this choice, it was yours, and you're going out on your own and you're doing the thing and like, and you want your clients to want to work with you and you want to seem in high demand and you want to see all these things. And there were points where I didn't feel that way and I didn't feel like I could be honest about it, and I felt like I should have been a little more humble in the way that I interacted with other people doing this that are really great at it, asking them more questions and being more thoughtful, potentially because I launched my business fast, might be part, but I wish I had been. I had taken a little bit more of, like, a beginner's mindset to the whole thing, instead of feeling like I had to crush it from the very beginning.
Nick Bennett [00:47:05]:
Like, that resonates with me very much, because I heard John Benigni say this a long time ago, and it's come up on very many podcasts, which is, a lot of people are winning in public, and I think that's kind of what you're talking about. It's like everyone just seems like they're just crushing it, whether they are or not. It's like, it's okay to not. And you get this distorted perception of what this work is like, is because everyone is winning in public. And I think I. I am so thankful for people like Erika Schneider, who truly build in public, because she shares a lot of L's. She shares a whole bunch of different L's, some people call it. You know, she's just, like, vulnerability, and she's willing to kind of share those things.
Nick Bennett [00:47:48]:
I just think she's committed to building in public, to the process, and what that means is sharing when you close. I think she closed, like, 20 clients in, like, a matter of a few weeks and built a, like, insane services business. But it also means, like, when stripe shuts you down and you can't find your money and. And the rent, like, the panic that ensues and all the, like, all the frustrations and the struggling part of trying to figure out, how do you manage now, 20 clients worth of stuff and all these different things. And I I just greatly appreciate that because there's not enough people doing it, and that includes me. Like, I struggle to share in that party. Yeah, I just, like. I don't know.
Nick Bennett [00:48:26]:
It's just. It feels weird. It feels weird. I'm like. And you had said this about yourself, and I totally. I was not in my head because, like, I don't think I'm a great writer, and because of that, I just feel like it's so much harder for me to, like, pull that out when it's, like, I need to pull out some of the basic things. Like you were saying, like, how do you make people problem aware? Like, I always say, the job of marketing is to make the problem you solve highly visible to everyone who experiences it. Like, really, that's my.
Nick Bennett [00:48:50]:
That is my direction. That is the thing. I need to be focused on not talking about how, not talking about all these other things. And so, yeah, it's. It's this constant tension between, like, between all of the these conflicting inputs. So, yeah, that I could. We could do a whole show just on that itself.
Shannon Curran [00:49:09]:
Well, I joked that we needed, like, a fails channel for all of us. Like, we wanted. Like, we wanted to share all of our wins. But, like, guys, I failed, like, five times last week. Like, I did a bad. I almost lost a client because I did something I totally messed, missed expectations with them. It was my fault because I didn't set them. Like.
Shannon Curran [00:49:25]:
And I was like, wow, there's no one I'm accountable to but myself in this job. Like, the audacity to do this work is massive, and it's scary. The. The wins are huge, and the, like, the losses feel so life altering sometimes. And it's like you just gotta. The mental fortitude it takes to just, like, ride the win.
Nick Bennett [00:49:45]:
The grit is. The grit is what I call it. And I don't think, you know, I've thought a lot about this, and I ask a lot of people about failure and stuff, and every single person's perspective on failure is that failure is perspective. Like you said, it's a fails channel. I'm like, this is the lessons learned channel. Like, it's just like, I'm thinking about it right now, as you're saying. It's like, it's not that. It's the failure.
Nick Bennett [00:50:07]:
You gotta figure it out somehow, and figuring it out doesn't mean failure. Right? Like, the whole, like, thousand ways to not make a light bulb. Right? Isn't that the whole Thomas Edison thing? So, okay, last thing for you, Shannon, before we. Before we call it today, what do you want to build this into? Right? Six months in, there's. You have so much Runway to get to go, but what do you. What does the future of this business look like? What do you want to build that has not been built yet?
Shannon Curran [00:50:37]:
When I think about what I want to build, it's a life, not a business. And I do think there are definitely at least two camps of people building businesses that, you know, some people have a dream for what their business will look like. I have a dream of what my life will look like, and I want to build a business that, like, allows me to have that life. Right. And I. I want to have three to four tech clients that I'm supporting, that I'm advising and potentially doing some consulting work with. And I want to have 10 hours my week for small businesses to be able to provide them services. I think I'd prefer to have a bench of consultants I could go to for that.
Shannon Curran [00:51:13]:
So, like, I'd be there. I'd be their connector. But, like, I could send them some technical folks that could really help them with the technical work. And I'm not missing any soccer games, and I'm not missing any dance lessons, and I am going to the gym every single day myself. And I'm not missing a therapy appointment. Right? Like, there is a life that I believe is so value aligned for me that this work can absolutely help me achieve. And I think that it's possible. It's just going to take a little bit of time.
Nick Bennett [00:51:44]:
So I know that it's possible. I know that it's possible. On the second episode of this show, I had Max trailer. And I swear this comes up, like, more often than I thought it ever would. But he said something that has lived rent free in my head ever since, which is people talk about work life balance. I am actively trying to not balance these things. I do not want. I want my life to take priority.
Nick Bennett [00:52:09]:
I'm actively trying to invest more of my time in my personal life and spend less time working. I'm not trying to balance these things and is very intentional. And it was like, duh, dude, like, yes, of course that's the answer. Like, you never really think about. Because everyone, because we've been, like, just indoctrinated into this idea that work life balance is the goal. And it's not the goal. Life balance is the goal. How do I work enough to support my life? Like, how do I live to work or work to know, right?
Shannon Curran [00:52:44]:
Work. Just enough.
Nick Bennett [00:52:46]:
Just enough.
Shannon Curran [00:52:47]:
Just enough.
Nick Bennett [00:52:47]:
Just enough. Well, I appreciate you greatly, Shannon, for coming on and sharing your story. I know for a fact more people feel seen because of it. So thank you so much. This has been, like, so much fun, and I'm excited for what you got, what's in front of you.
Shannon Curran [00:53:01]:
Yeah. Thanks so much. It's been so lovely. I loved it.
Nick Bennett [00:53:05]:
Awesome. I'll talk to you soon.
Hey, Nick, again, and thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, you can sign up for the 1000 Routes newsletter, where I process the insights and stories you hear on this show into frameworks and lessons to help you build a new and different future for your own business. You can sign up at 1000routes.com or check the link in the show notes.
What would be your last meal on her?
Shannon Curran [00:53:41]:
Nachos. But not Mel. Not like liquid cheese. Like you need like real, like sprite.
Nick Bennett [00:53:50]:
Canned cheese, like cheese whiz.
Shannon Curran [00:53:52]:
None of that really good guac, sour cream, nachos, jalapenos, pico. That is what I need.
Nick Bennett [00:53:59]:
Any protein, like steak chicken.
Shannon Curran [00:54:01]:
I don't eat meat. Okay. We're really getting fancy. I guess so. No, no. I don't even want to mess with any kind of, like, vegan chorizo. Cause I don't even really like that stuff. I sometimes put it on stuff, but.
Nick Bennett [00:54:10]:
And for our last meal on earth, play the hits.
Shannon Curran [00:54:13]:
Yeah, that's it. Nachos.
Nick Bennett [00:54:15]:
I'm in. I'm in. Nachos. Full plate. I like that you went spicy. Also with some little jalapenos. I'm with you there. All right. I would eat that meal with you. I'm in.