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"We all are jerks. When we're tired, when we're stressed, when we're overwhelmed, we probably all got to know this person pretty well during the pandemic. Learn to identify what your inner jerk is and start looking for those red flags, and you'll be a better person for it." - Tessa West
The WorkWell Podcast™ is back and I am so excited about the inspiring guests we have lined up. Wellbeing at work is the issue of our time. This podcast is your lens into what the experts are seeing, thinking, and doing.
Hi, I am Jen Fisher, host, bestselling author and influential speaker in the corporate wellbeing movement and the first-ever Chief Wellbeing Officer in the professional services industry. On this show, I sit down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations on all things wellbeing at work. Wellbeing is the future of work. This podcast will help you as an individual, but also support you in being part of the movement for change in your own organizations and communities. Wellbeing can be the outcome of work well designed. And we all have a role to play in this critical transformation!
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The WorkWell Podcast with Tessa West
Jen Fisher: [00:00:00] Hello listeners. We're halfway through our relaunch season of the Work Well Podcast, and I'd love to hear your thoughts. What topics are resonating with you? Is our new LRA Lynn segment providing valuable insights. Your feedback helps us create content that truly serves your wellbeing journey. So please take a moment to leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts.
It only takes a minute, but it makes a huge difference in helping others discover our conversations. And as always, if you like the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you for being part of our work. Well community. Let's be honest, we've all had that coworker who makes every day harder than it needs to be, and most of us have stayed too long in jobs that weren't right for us.
But what if these universal workplace struggles aren't just about bad luck or poor choices? What if there's actually a science behind why we put up with difficult people at work and why finding career fulfillment feels so complicated? This is the Work Well [00:01:00] podcast series. Hi, I'm Jen Fisher, and today I'm thrilled to be talking with Dr.
Tessa West. She's a professor of psychology at New York University and the author of two groundbreaking books, jerks at Work, toxic Coworkers and what to Do about Them and Her Latest Job Therapy, A psychologist guide to finding your most fulfilling job yet. Her research, which includes interviews with thousands of people, navigating workplace relationships and career transitions, reveals surprising patterns about why we get stuck, and more importantly, how to get unstuck.
This episode of The Work Well Podcast is made possible because of our friends at Lyra Health. Lyra Health is a premier global workforce mental health solution trusted by leading companies like Starbucks, Morgan Stanley, Lululemon, and Zoom. Lyra provides personalized care to over 17 million people with fast access to [00:02:00] evidence-based providers and tools that deliver proven results, including faster recovery and reduced healthcare costs.
This season Lira and the Work Well Podcast are teaming up to bring you more insights on how to build a thriving work culture for today and the future. We'll be bringing you cutting edge data and research on workplace mental health and wellbeing, and we'll have some lira experts occasionally join us to share their perspectives.
On workforce mental health and creating psychologically safe and effective work environments. Find out more@lirahealth.com slash work. Well, thank you to Lira for helping us elevate this season of the Work Well Podcast
itsa, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. I have so many questions for you. I'm so excited for this conversation. But first, what first drew you to studying workplace dynamics and the psychology of career [00:03:00] satisfaction? I.
Tessa West: Ooh, good question. Um, well, we certainly have all been miserable at work.
I think, you know, for me, I study uncomfortable social interactions. I'm a social psychologist by training and I bring people into my lab and I study uncomfortable social interactions. I study anxiety, how it's manifested in our physiology, and then how that kind of leaks out through our nonverbal behaviors.
And what I've started seeing is that. This is just really prevalent in the workplace. Yeah. A lot of us are feeling uncomfortable at work. We're feeling anxious and kind of unsure of how to express it and what to do with it. And there's just been a lot of uncertainty in the air. And I think, you know, one thing that I've, I've, I've really started feeling in the last five or six years.
Is that people have all these kind of complex feelings. A lot of them are these emotions that I've typically studied in the lab, but they think everyone around them is kind of doing great. Um, and I have lots of thoughts about why. I think a lot of that has to do with kind of [00:04:00] messaging on social media.
But people come to me and say, I feel uncomfortable. I feel stressed, I feel anxious. I'm feeling this kind of heightened level of anxiety. This. Not coming down. Is it just me? Are there other people like that? And I think, you know, so we have this kind of angst, um, that's in the air that I used to study in the lab, and I've really kind of noticed it in the world.
And so I wrote this book largely for people who are feeling those complex emotions and don't know what to do with them. Um, that I really saw kind of in my original research as a social psychologist kinda showing up in the real world.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean. Resonates with me. Have felt it, experienced it, which is why I am so excited to have you on the show today.
And I, I wanna actually talk about both of your books because I've read both of them. I don't know if this is a funny answer or a serious answer, but I'm getting ready to find out what's the most outrageous workplace behavior that you've encountered in your research?
Tessa West: Oh my gosh, in my research or my [00:05:00] personal life?
Jen Fisher: Well, I mean, you know, I mean, actually when I talk to a lot of social psychologists, they call it me search, right? So,
Tessa West: yes, I mean, I, I would say boundary issues broadly construed is a big one, I think, um, over disclosure. Um, you know, people come to me and they're like, I, there's a lot of kind of meanies at work, but the things that.
The most outrageous behavior that people dunno what to do with is oversharing. People showing up, not wearing shoes. Um, you know, just people being really unprofessional and gross at work. Um, and, and then some of that unprofessional is like stealing office supplies. Uh, you know, just kind of like cringey little behavior like that.
We have that in my workplace as well. In academia, we don't get paid very much, so we steal petty little things from each other all the time. And I've, I've caught like very wealthy, wealthy ish, well off. People doing this. So I would say the boundary stuff, it's like kissing me accidentally half on the mouth, [00:06:00] not wearing shoes, you know, not wearing real pants like saying like uncomfortable overshare, stuff like that.
That, that is just, you know, there's a lot of it. And the, and there's, you know, there's more of it than you would think. Think and then I can come up with a couple really discussing egregious behaviors. But those are the ones I'm, I'm seeing kind of a lot of, and I don't know if it's like some kind of pandemic kind of hangover we have or what, but yeah, we forgot social norms in some way.
Yeah. We all got a little, we all got a little weird. Never really recovered.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I will admit I'm not barefoot, but I am in my home office and I am wearing socks with no shoes right now, but I'm at home and I'm by myself, so I think that's acceptable.
Tessa West: But you probably wouldn't walk into a boardroom meeting No.
Without shoes. But you would be surprised at how many people are like, do I really need the shoes? Does anyone really care? And then they decide the answer is no. And then they just go do it. Yeah. And I have a problem with Whiskeys
Jen Fisher: skit, so that would not, that wouldn't, that wouldn't be okay [00:07:00] with me. Uh, yeah.
All right. So in jerks at work, you identify different types of difficult coworkers, and so can you talk about those difficult coworkers and then talk about which one is actually the most dangerous to our wellbeing? 'cause I don't think it's what people would think it's.
Tessa West: Yes. So my favorite, which is the first chapter, is the Kiss Up Kick Downer.
So this is the person, this is a very frustrating one to work with because the boss loves them. They tend to actually be very socially attuned and they're good at climbing the hierarchy. And so this person kind of kisses up to people in power, but the kick down to people lower in power than them, or kind of equal in power and status to them.
And so. If you have one of these people, they probably, you know, give subtle insults to you in front of your boss. Uh, maybe they're stealing kind of small amounts of credit, things like that. And they make [00:08:00] it very hard for you to get ahead, especially because complaining about them tends to not get you very far.
You look jealous, you look petty. Um, and it's, they're very trixie. They have, uh, what I call a lot of status acuity. They're very good at reading the room. They know kind of who to complain to and things like that. I, I sold Ben's shoes at Nordstrom's and I had a lot of these folks, uh, in my life. You see them in sales a lot.
Uh, they, they tend to steal customers or sabotage your sales and things like that. So. The kiss up Kick Downer is one that, I mean, I personally just struggled with a lot. I've also struggled a lot with the, the credit stealer. Um, the credit stealer also tends to give you credit for, for things that don't matter.
So they will stand up in a room and give you credit or, you know, throwing a really awesome office party or, you know, gathering all those documents together. Things that don't really further your career, but make you feel good and maybe get you some. Social capital, um, that way, you know, you can't totally throw them under the bus.
Um, and so they [00:09:00] tend to steal credit for the things that really matter. And they do it in these very underhanded kind of ways. You have free writers, so these are the people who everyone loves. They have the best office gossip, they're very fun to hang out with, and the smart ones know how to kind of distribute the work equally among everyone on the team.
So no one person feels the pain and. That way they kind of get away with it for a very long time. And we have a hard time confronting a free writer often because we're not quite sure, you know, only the teams that are super good at communication can actually even put the pieces together to figure out the free writing's happening.
'cause you know, maybe they ask me to do one little thing. They ask, you know, you to do another little thing. We don't really, can't really tell until we're pretty far into the group project, and so they tend to get away with it for a really long time. They tend to do work that has a lot of visibility, so they'll be the one to do the, you know, the group project standing up in front of the boss where it's visible, even if they did none of the work to get there.
So they often kind of volunteer for those types of things. The [00:10:00] bulldozer. Uh, I, I've dealt with this one a lot. They, they talk over people in the room. Um, you know, we all dealt with those during the pandemic. They're the ones who screen got really big. Um, I don't know if you guys had this setting on your computers where the speaker would take over the, the actual screen and we could figure out these people.
You know, I study talk time and interruptions and so I'm like very attuned to this type of thing. But the real kind of danger of this person is they tend to know a lot of people in power, and so they will go behind the scenes when they don't like a group decision. You know, a hiring decision. For example, we do this, you know, in academia, they'll go to the person above you who has to approve it.
And they will start to say things like, there was a problem with the process. They didn't follow protocol. And so what you end up finding is the team is kind of hitting a wall or you're at an impasse and you're having difficulty kind of forging ahead and you don't really know why. And it tends to be because you're bulldozer [00:11:00] is going behind the scenes and sabotaging you, and they're overriding decisions or getting people in power to override decisions that don't align with their own self-interest.
But they're doing it in this kind of clever way. Um, and so, you know, all of these people who are very good at these, these jerkish behaviors, they tend to kind of do them very strategically and they're good at it. Um, and then you have the gas lighter who I think, you know, most of us think of gaslighting, I think a little bit too lenient.
I think of a gas lighter. As someone who socially isolates you, they often make you feel very good about yourself. They often make you feel like you're. Special that you are plucked from the crowd to help them on this special mission. Um, sometimes it's the opposite. Sometimes they make you feel like you only get to work here because of them and they're protecting you from being fired.
Um, but a lot of them kind of slowly get you involved in things or maybe ethical. Uh, questionable and you are so isolated. You don't know what you're doing is wrong. You don't know what you're doing is non-normative, and it's very [00:12:00] difficult to pull yourself out of those relationships. And so the Gaslight is the one that people have a hard time recovering from.
They need the most therapy from. Those are the ones that stick. So when you think about the worst person you've ever worked with, the most psychological damage, the one that still makes your heart pump, uh, you know, and you still are afraid of them, even though, you know, 30 years later, that tends to be someone who's a gaslight and they're very scary to work with.
They're hard to identify as well. They're very manipulative. And how prevalent are they? It's hard to know. I think, uh, because they have to have a unique combination of competence. So you know they have to have power. Yeah. Gas leaders are not low in power, low in status. They have social capital. They got there because they're good at their job and because people in power trust them.
I'm not a clinical psychologist, but they probably have some sociopathy. They're probably pretty. High on that scale. And they, they also have to have some charisma. So an ability to [00:13:00] kind of pull people in and make them feel special. And then they need to have a mission to be ethically questionable. So they, they need to be motivated to do those things.
They need to be wanting to do. They wanna do something that is shady and so. Usually, you know, you can get someone who's a bit of a sociopath, but they're not trying to cover something up or you know, have a mission that's shady. So I don't think they're actually that common. I think there's a lot of people who sort of are wanna be gaslight, but they don't have any power, right?
And so they kind of try it, but then they get called out. A true Gaslight is very well respected by their peers and their peers don't even know they're doing it. And so for that reason, I actually think because they need to be high. And because they've been working for so long and successfully doing it, that they're probably pretty rare.
Jen Fisher: That's really interesting to know, and I agree with you. 'cause I, I think we tend to believe that there's a lot more of those than, than perhaps there, there really are. And maybe they fit in some of the, [00:14:00] the other types of difficult coworkers. Um, I, I, I, I think that's really positive. That's really good news for me.
Tessa West: Yeah. I mean the good news is they're rare, but I, but they, but none of these are actually sort of orthogonal. They all can overlap. Like you can get bits and pieces together and you don't just have to have your person in one bucket. They can certainly sort of be sampling from all of the different chapters.
And you can have a nice hybrid person. That's certainly possible. Yeah. So,
Jen Fisher: so. Let's talk about, 'cause I have certainly encountered this many times throughout my career. What if and, and I think this is true in many cases, like what if the toxic person is actually really great at their job? And you know, I mean, they're kind of that toxic rock star and so nobody wants to do anything about it or say anything about it.
And ultimately we just have to put up with it.
Tessa West: Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the million dollar question and most of these people are good at their jobs or they wouldn't [00:15:00] still be working there. I think, you know, if you work in a climate that. Values the output of the work and doesn't value interpersonal cooperation and communication, then you're really stuck in a tough place.
And I think I learned this in kind of writing my second book, that communication tends to be very bad between leaders and employees. And that's kind of one of the reasons why. And so people say they're very good at their job and I'm stuck with them. And I, and I tend to usually question that because we, when we say they're very good at their job, we tend to focus on.
Kind of those like individual level outcomes that we put on our resume. You know, they made X amount of money. They, you know, they did some kind of thing that is a measurable outcome. Um, what they are bad at is preventing a revolving door of talent. Having a team that is cohesive, those kinds of soft types of, you know, measures that we're starting to actually quantify.
Um, and so I think good at your [00:16:00] job can be. Identified in multiple ways. Historically, we've really treated them as what are called hard outcomes. How much money did you make? You know, what is your ROI? What's your return on investment? But now we're starting to actually call good at your job. Um, other things, communication skills, um, your team's ability to cooperate and, you know, work together efficiently.
And I think that, um, because we're changing the definition of good at your job, we might be sort of questioning this idea that a toxic person. You know, can survive in this environment. So I think that's changing a little bit. That said, there are certainly climates that do not care about this behavior because it can, it can exist or even be encouraged for people to thrive.
Um, one of those would be something like a law firm where only one person's gonna make partner. And to get there, you need to be a kiss up kick downer. It is built in the fabric of the job. It is sort of in the DNA. Of the industry and everybody knows that. And [00:17:00] I think when you select into a career, you need to know the personality of that career.
You know, the personality of the company, of the organization, and of the structure. And part of knowing that is knowing is this a breeding ground? For a particular type of jerk I can't work with, is this a place that encourages it or at least turns their head at it? And if it's baked into the DNA or it's part of the culture, you are not going to change that culture.
I, I think it's very difficult to do that single-handedly. I think it's very difficult to convince your boss to push that person out when they are doing so well. And so I tend to be very cynical at telling people, you can really push against this movement. You can change it. You need to explore how deep the problem is and whether it really is baked into this culture and part of that is a fit, um, with, with the job, with the industry and so forth.
Jen Fisher: I think that that is so important. 'cause I don't know that somebody would've given me that advice at the beginning of my career or even at the [00:18:00] midpoint of, of my career, you know, different stages where I was reevaluating. Do I wanna do this? Do I belong here? That's not guidance that we're given and I, I think that it's so important and it's also totally okay to say, actually, you know what, that career path or that organization doesn't align with what's important to me.
And it's perfectly okay to make that decision for yourself. Like you don't have to just grin it and put up with it and accept it.
Tessa West: And I think too, one thing we don't have conversations enough about is you might think about a career that right now, at this stage of the career, it's not jerk friendly, but once you move up to a position of leadership, all of a sudden it does become jerk friendly because that position is different and kind from the position you held before.
So you know, I'm an assistant professor, that means one thing, and now all of a sudden. Now I move up, and now I'm in a position of leadership where I get treated very differently. I'm [00:19:00] handling a whole different kind of set of problems, and nobody prepared me for the work jerky that I'm now experiencing.
When I entered this career, I thought about the first. Step, I thought about what it would take to get tenure. I did not think about what it would look like to be chair of a department where I'm taking things away from people all day long and what that would do to my social capital and how that would feel and how hard that would be because no one really kind of talked about the life trajectory, the kinds of jerks I would encounter.
Different stages, you know, how that would feel. And I think that, and they don't give you training for that either. Yeah, there's no tr Oh, yeah. You know, beside the point that we don't get trained at all for promotions. We, we don't, we don't know what the life trajectory is of a career. No one really talks to us about what that looks like over time, and I
Jen Fisher: think that's a real problem.
Yeah, I, I would agree. So is there a specific type of person or personality type that is more likely to. Attract workplace jerks, I don't wanna say an easy target, but [00:20:00] because you're a PE teacher or because you're, you know, because you have certain personality traits, are they, are the jerks more likely to gravitate towards you or want to have you on their team?
Tessa West: Yes, I would say, um. I won't label too much. I mean, people who are conflict avoidant tend to kind of attract jerks. I think the, the, it's not so much a personality trait, but more a social characteristic. Not being well networked and being socially isolated makes you a real target. So even if you're confident, even if you're good at your job, if you don't have a good network and you're kind of cut off from everybody, you're an amazing target for a jerk because they know.
That their reputation isn't going to suffer at all. And those are the people who actually tend to be targeted, the people who you know, and you can be at any career stage, you can be a middle manager and not have a good network. You can be a new employee. Um. [00:21:00] That is really the main trait that attracts jerks and, and, and for good reason, because they're easy targets and, you know, they're, it's a just a pretty safe reputational move if you're a jerk to do that.
Well, networked people of all types of personalities from those who are neurotic to those who are not, to narcissists, to not, you know, that's the, that's kind of the main variable is, is, you know, how many people do you know, and how, how fast will the, the rumor spread if this person's mistreating you.
Jen Fisher: Mm-hmm. So what's the best way, or perhaps what's the biggest mistake that people make when trying to deal with an
Tessa West: office jerk? Uh, doing it alone. I think they, they try to approach the person by themselves. They try to give them a speech. You know, we're, we're all kind of taught as kids don't put up with bullying behavior.
Here's how you confront your bully. I. And I think actually most of the time, that tends to backfire [00:22:00] and it actually just teaches your bully how to kind of one up. You. I, I tend to be a little more Game of Thrones with this, and before I even confront, I like to know how widespread the problem is. So I do a little digging.
I find out am I the only victim? Are there other victims? And I don't do it by. Asking people, does this person bully you? I just do a lot of information seeking, kind of like what you would do when you're applying for a job. You wanna kind of learn about what the job is like. So you ask some pretty innocuous questions.
So you kind of go around and ask, you know, have you worked with this person? What's that experience been like? Um, you know, and, and sometimes you're gonna get that they're great. Uh, you know, when you do a lot of digging around. For recommendations when you're gonna hire someone, you do the same thing. I actually use the exact same approach from my workplace bullies that I do when I'm trying to decide who to hire.
Uh, I ask the same questions, and then that way they're not leading questions, they're not suggestive, they're just kind of reputation [00:23:00] gathering questions. From there, you can kind of figure out. Is it just me? Is this a widespread problem? And then critically, is this something that's just targeted to kind of low status people, high status people, all people.
Um, and you know, the people who are targeted, do they tend to kind of leave the job? Do they. Do they get pushed out? Uh, you know, do they suck it up? Those types of things, I think are kind of the, the most important first step. You have to be very patient. You have to have probably more patients than you're gonna wanna have.
You're gonna wanna get this problem solved right away. But I think the information gathering stage is super important. Then from there you need to document the behaviors. I mean, this is kind of an obvious point, but I think when we're mad, when we're upset with someone, we wanna complain about how they make us feel.
They're insulting, they're rude. They make me feel bad about myself. I don't trust them. I. Those words are meaningless to a boss or a manager, um, because they're about your feelings. And you know, that sounds rude, [00:24:00] it sounds mean, but at the end of the day, your boss has to act on actual actions. You know, if you say They hacked my email and did X, or, you know.
Instead of saying they're rude, you say They interrupted me and they said this exact thing. Yeah. Um, they're much more likely to act because feelings can be interpreted in multiple ways. Behaviors showcase a maturity, and there's not an attribution ambiguity there. Um, you know, we're not just talking about sort of editorializing your experience.
We're talking about actual actions. And I think, you know, also HR is gonna be much more kind of attuned to action than they are to feelings. And so there's just a practicality there. So, you know, information digging, write down those behaviors, be as concrete as possible. And if you can, don't talk about your feelings at all.
Um, you know, sound like a journalist when you're talking about this person. Leave your emotions for your friends at the bar after work. Make this just sound, um, you know, as kind of emotionless as you possibly can. And then that way your boss is gonna actually have some alarm bells going off. 'cause this person's [00:25:00] engaging in behaviors that are problematic.
It's not that they're making people feel bad about themselves. They're doing things that are problematic. And that's where, that's where you need to be to get anyone empowered to actually do something. Where were you when I needed this advice? I mean, I didn't have this, I mean, I'm 43. I could have used this in my twenties for sure.
Yeah,
Jen Fisher: I think we, I think we all could, but that's good. We're showing up for, for other generations. So good on, good on us. So, l lemme ask you a question that perhaps no one or very few people would actually admit. Or I don't even know if this would happen, but like, what if I suspect that I'm actually the toxic coworker or the jerk coworker?
Tessa West: Um, the answer is yes, you are. We all are. I think I, I we're, we are all capable of some gross version of our. Self, I think, you know, when we're tired, when we're stressed, when we're overwhelmed, we probably all got to know this person pretty well during the pandemic. [00:26:00] Um, you know, all of us kind of had that kind of overworked version of ourselves, and I think the key is just.
Kind of being able to identify and admitting that that person exists, uh, chances are no one's gonna tell you, um, you know, unless you have such psychological safety in the workplace where your employees can tell you, um, which I've ne I haven't come across that workplace yet. Um, it's, it's rare for people to actually kind of tell you that it's happening.
You're probably gonna get a lot of crickets. It's just gonna be like, how are things going? And you're not gonna get any feedback. It's kind of more the absence of positive feedback, not the presence of negative feedback. Um, you know, so. We get this a lot in academia when people go up for tenure and we need letters.
You know, we, we ask for 20 letters for people to recommend this person. We got three back. Okay, well that's a pretty bad sign. They're probably toxic, but you know, I think identify what your Achilles heel is. I. So for me, when I get overwhelmed, I sort of become a [00:27:00] free writer. I, I, I become very disengaged. I don't micromanage.
I kind of do the opposite, but for some people, when they're stressed, they micromanage. They're kind of like on top of their employees because it gives them a sense of control and they, they kind of know that about themselves. It's sort of like, you know, when you're stressed, you eat too many cupcakes, so just don't put cupcakes in the house.
Um, or do 'cause cupcakes are delicious. So just learn to identify it. Learn to spot the early signs. Put some steps in place, but we all are jerks. Like we, we can all be terrible to our romantic partners. We can be terrible at work. You know, sit down if you're listening to this and figure out what your inner jerk is and start looking for those red flags, and you'll be a better person for it.
Jen Fisher: I love that. I love that. I mean, I, because I, you know, I mean, I think, yeah, we, I, I certainly can identify. The ways and times in which I'm a jerk. And yeah, I mean I think also part of it is, you know, when it does happen, owning it and apologizing and say, you know, I really didn't sleep well last night and I know I'm [00:28:00] super cranky and I, you know, flew off the handle at you and, you know, acknowledging that you did it and why, um, goes a long way too.
As long as you don't overuse that as like, you know, every single day, you're a jerk all
Tessa West: the time. For sure, for sure. I, I'll add one little thing too. Um, a a lot of our jerk behaviors actually expressed through our nonverbal behaviors, um, dirty looks we give people. And you don't know what your face looks like.
You No, none of us do. I was actually in a meeting yesterday where someone was speaking and I apparently had like this horrible face the whole time. And four people came up to me afterwards and were like, you're. Face was crazy that entire time and I was just really tired, you know, so, so often it's like not even an, an awareness of, of how you're appearing what those non-verbal behaviors are, and, and that's just how communication works.
And so, so, you know, it's not always just a, a very. Explicit behavior. Sometimes it's a super subtle action, you know, whether you said hi to someone in the elevator or gave them side eye. Things [00:29:00] like that also can count in ways that are, you know, tough to control. Yeah, and I, you know, it's
Jen Fisher: interesting. We just had, uh, Dr.
Lisa Feldman Barrett on, on our last episode of, of the show, and she was talking about how, you know, we read into, you know, facial expressions as somebody. Scowling. You know, we automatically think they're angry. If somebody's smiling, we think they're happy. And you know how dangerous that can be, right?
Because we never Oh yeah. We never actually know. Right. And so, yeah, you know, she said that, you know, with her students, sometimes she'll be focused and listening to what they're saying, and she has a scowl on her face and they think she's angry, but she's just focused.
Tessa West: Yeah, I've actually had that conversation with Lisa.
Yeah. That exact conversation with her, because we both have the scowl problem. So yeah, she's great at telling you, you know, how you can think about affect and, you know, when you're feeling something and, and what that actually means and, and kind of how to reinterpret it. And I think that that's true, um, for a lot of our actions.
And, you know, she's, she's the expert. And understanding emotion and affect and [00:30:00] things like that. But yeah, it's intensity can mean a lot of different things to you internally versus how it's, it's looked, it's showing on your face. Yeah, exactly.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. So let's shift to your work, your book, job therapy. We've talked about the jerks.
Now you talk about five sources of career frustration. So can you take us through those? And then kind of talk about, you talk about which one you think is the most misdiagnosed.
Tessa West: Yes. I clearly like typologies or maybe I'm only capable of writing books that are typologies. It's okay. The rest of us follow it very clearly, so thank you.
Yes. Um, so, you know. The first one is the crisis of identity. And I think anyone who's been working long enough and has dedicated a part of their life to a job, and then they kind of wake up in a panic and think this thing defines me, but I don't know if I like it anymore. Um, you know, it, it's still a piece of me, but I'm maybe not satisfied with it.
And the big question for these people. [00:31:00] Is, do I want to stay in this career or do I wanna make a huge pivot? And a lot of that chapter is really doing some investigation to kind of figure out the answer to that. Those people tend to be kind of more advanced in their careers because they've done enough to have an identity to then have a crisis about it.
Um, the next is the drifted apart and this person. Used to love their job. They, they think they probably still love the job if it existed, theoretically in another place. Um, but they don't recognize it anymore. And I use a lot of metaphors in this book, as, you know, kind of parallels to relationships. But you can imagine sitting on the couch and looking at your partner and going, I did not sign up for this.
Is it you? Is it me? Is it a combination? Um, you know, I'm not quite sure, and I think these people often don't know how much the job has changed. The industry has changed or they've changed and they have to do some soul searching to kind of figure that out because it's been kind of an incremental kind of change over [00:32:00] time.
Um, stretch too thin. That's all of us. This chapter is just for everyone who needs a little bit of life hacking help, um, to sort of figure out how to reorient their work around what I call working spheres, which are kind of big categories of things rather than modes. We tend to do email and then writing, and then, you know, we, we organize around sort of the typology of work rather than how our minds actually work, which is work on your book and then go, you know, work on an activity related to cleaning your desk and things like that.
And so I, I, I borrow from neuros. Science a lot for that chapter. Um, the runner up, which, you know, all of us hate being in this position. Uh, you just can't lay on that razor promotion and you're not quite sure why. You're just kind of up against this wall and you're, no matter how hard you try, you just kind of get very close, but you can never kind of pass, go over the finish line and then the underappreciated star.
So people who are very good at their job, they know they're good at it, uh, and you know. They, they sort of get [00:33:00] promised lots of options for the future, but they're never actually given those things. Um, I, I interrogate the star part quite a bit in this chapter 'cause I think a lot of us see ourselves as stars, but you know, are we really stars and critically is there a market for our starness?
Um, or is good enough just fine? And I think. That's kind of the disappointing truth for a lot of underappreciated stars is they are stars, they are underappreciated, but nobody cares. Nobody wants to pay for someone who's amazing when good enough gets the job done. Um, and they're much cheaper. And I think, you know, so that's kind of the journey that those people have to go on.
So those are the types.
Jen Fisher: This part was kind of, I think, uh, mind blowing to me. So when do we admit and that following your passion is. Terrible career advice.
Tessa West: Oh, I mean, passion is a hard thing. I, I think that that is just, that is just a, a goal we, none of us should have. [00:34:00] Um, I think that what we wanna do is explore something that makes us feel good about ourselves, that we kind of wake up and, and not all the time, you're not always gonna feel good.
Passion is something that you feel for a person that you start dating and it lasts six weeks. That's where passion belongs. Passion is not an emotion that belongs in the workplace. Um, it is a heightened level of excitement. Um, it's, it's arousal based and you're not gonna, you know, even if you love your job when you first started and you're super excited, um, you know, you have that.
Physiologic arousal, it's not gonna last. And we know that about passion and we know that about excitement. It, it tends, you tend to return to baseline. And so when people talk about passion driven work, it makes me very nervous because eventually it's gonna get a little bit boring. Um, and even if you're working for company that you have a passion for, you know, working on climate change, you're probably still co-lead Excel sheets.[00:35:00]
That's probably like what your job is. That's not exciting. And so I think when we, we strive for that, it's just not a good target for us. It's not realistic. It's not what work is, it's not what the day-to-day feels like for a job. And it's not an emotion that belongs in a career trajectory. It's not even an emotion that it belongs in a romantic relationship past the first six weeks.
So, so don't try that guys, unless you wanna just be chronically disappointed. I think it's dangerous. So, so
Jen Fisher: I do too. But, but we hear it all the time. Um, still, so what, what is the right career advice? Is it mission driven? I mean, is it, is it purpose? We hear a lot of purpose. We hear a lot of mission driven.
We hear meaning, um,
Tessa West: yeah. I don't like any of the words. I, I, here's what, here's what you do, you need to do. This is gonna sound boring to people. I don't like anything. That sounds too exciting. I actually think that the secret to a good career [00:36:00] is to slowly explore it and interrogate that job and career as much as you possibly can with open eyes.
And what that means is you talk to as many people as you can who love that job. Who hate that job, who have tried and failed at it, and who have tried and succeeded, and you just ask them questions about what the day-to-day is like. You know, you know what they didn't expect, um, what nobody told them before they started.
And you collect data and you paint a picture for yourself of what that career actually looks like. Accuracy and knowing what a career looks like, that is the secret to success in a career. Accuracy and knowing what you will foresee in the future, and then really knowing yourself and knowing what your stress triggers are, knowing what you can and can't put up with internally.
So for me, I can put up with a a lot of stressors, but uncertainty is just something I really can't handle. I hate uncertainty. That's my thing, that I, I [00:37:00] can't have a career that involves that. So if I start a new career, I'm gonna interrogate it to see how much uncertainty it involves. That's my deal breaker.
So I know that about myself. I've collected a lot of data on my own stressors. I've, I've done my daily stress test to know what keeps me up at night, what makes me sick, what makes me mean to my child, to my, to my husband. And I've also interrogated careers. I've asked people who've succeeded, who've failed, who've dropped out, who've stayed the course, and I.
Paint a picture of what that job looks like. And it, you know, you have to be accuracy driven to really understand what the job looks like. And a lot of people aren't willing to do that. They don't wanna interrogate the job, they just wanna feel good about it, and they wanna like listen to all the fluffy stuff about it.
And I think that's where they make the mistake.
Jen Fisher: Well, and you, you share something in your book, the, the working week on it. Um, that I found to be really helpful. Can you talk a little bit, like, talk us through that?
Tessa West: Yeah. So I study stress and one thing that we know about stress is it tends to affect us a couple days [00:38:00] later.
And so what I encourage you to do is in the morning you write down what you think is gonna be the most stressful part of your day, and then the evening you write down what was actually the most stressful part of your day. You're also gonna record things like how good your sleep was, how your relationship's going, things like that.
What you'll probably find is that the thing you thought was the most stressful is gonna end up being the most stressful maybe half the time, but we're pretty good if we can anticipate it at actually managing it, dealing with it, and so forth. The things that people wrote down is the most stressful part of their day, ironically, are things that they actually encounter all the time.
They just don't sort of mentalize as stressors. They're things like commutes that run long. A boss that. You know, add something to your calendar at the last minute. But until I tell you to write it down as a stressor, you don't actually label it as such, and so you don't really think about it as a stressor.
And then what we find is when those, those little stressors add up, they tend to [00:39:00] affect things like your sleep two days later, three days later. So we're not very good at actually knowing what stresses us out because we focus so much on the moment. Not this kind of lagged effect. And I think that's how you can really learn about what stresses you out at work, but you have to collect data on yourself.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, I love that. It's been super helpful to me and, and also to your point, very eye-opening because you know, the things that, that I realized, I was like, oh, wow, yeah, that's true. But I, I didn't really think of it that way, so thank you. Um, I wanna, I wanna talk about money, um, and the, the psychological cost.
How damaging it can be to stay in a job just for money or the thinking around kind of, I'm the highest paid I've ever been, but I'm also the most miserable and, you know. This is kind of become a common definition of success, and so I [00:40:00] want you to talk about that. You know how that impacts us? Yes.
Tessa West: So I, I tend to be very pragmatic about this.
I was raised blue collar. I was raised by people who did nothing but talk about money 'cause we didn't have any growing up. So the way I think about money is I. You need to have kind of the, you need to first be very practical. How much do you need to have your needs met? We're not going to sort of talk people into having jobs that, that don't give you that.
So assuming you have your needs met, you can pay the bills. Above and beyond that, what we know from the research is. Incremental changes in income tend to not get you very far psychologically in terms of your wellbeing. So you're not gonna offset, say something like a rich social network with 10,000 extra dollars.
Um, in fact, it, it takes. Such a large amount of income to really change the quality of your life, to offset things like [00:41:00] psychological wellbeing, you know, a well-balanced life, having a good social network and things like that. So don't think about money in terms of, okay, an extra $10,000. It's worth doing that to give up something you really care about.
Think about money as once my, my minimum is met, I can do what I need to do to be happy and healthy. From there, you really need to prioritize the other stuff. The $10,000 isn't gonna really do anything for you. Um, you know, people have kind of done these comparables, like $30,000 is the same as two friends at work.
You know, those types of things. But the money doesn't ha the money doesn't, I mean, people say money doesn't buy happiness. What it doesn't do is buy you de-stress because you, once you have enough, you tend to kind of invest it or spend it on crap. You don't need, um, you're not actually spending it on, on ways of making your life easier.
Um, we're, we're, we're, we tend to not be very good about it that way. So I would do sort of get as much as you need and then from there, shift those priorities [00:42:00] over. Um, that's. That tends to be how I think about that.
Jen Fisher: Okay. All right. I think that's really helpful. So, final question. Um, this one is one that's deeply important to me.
Tell me your views on, on work life balance. Is this, is this just, you know, corporate, corporate speak at this point, or is there actually hope for us achieving it?
Tessa West: There is, but not if we think about work in life as two separate things. Um, and we think about them as two separate locations. So I think the biggest misconception is people think that they are at work and then they are not.
At work and that the balance is really comes down to the hours in the days that they're spent doing different things. Um, and the reason why is because that's not how psychology works, right? You can be sitting at home watching TV and perseverating on a meeting or you know, reading emails or just sort of thinking about something.
You could be sitting at work spaced out thinking about a fight with your spouse. And so you could. That balance is more psychological. [00:43:00] It's less about sort of physical location and even what you're doing. Um, and so you, I think the balance has to kind of come down to this identity piece that I'm talking about.
You don't want your entire identity, um, to be poured into your job such that if you get fired. Your whole sense of self is gonna come crashing down. Um, you wanna maybe have some, some kind of a balance there. And so I would think about work-life balance in terms of psychological balance. You know, you don't want all the stress at work to bleed over to your stress at home.
You don't want your entire identity to be at work or at home. You don't wanna be so perseverative. That every fight you have with your spouse gets carried over to home or vice versa. So I think you kind of have to keep track of those psychological pieces and think about balance that way, not in terms of the hours you're spending.
And I think we gotta get ourselves in a pickle where we have careers that are very tough, that are hard, that we spend a lot of time investing in, and then we tell ourselves, I need work life balance. I'm gonna take off Friday, and then we take off Friday. But we spend the [00:44:00] entire time thinking about work.
You're not in balance because you haven't psychologically dealt with the the stress carryover, and I think. Once we tackle that part, then we can, we can get the balance. But people don't, it's hard. It's really, really hard. And so you, that's the challenge. Not impossible, but, but that's the real challenge.
Jen Fisher: No, but I think that that actually illuminates, you know, work the, the concept of work-life balance in a way that, that makes sense. 'cause I think so many people just, you know, you hear, you even hear the term work life balance, then you just, you stop listening at that point, right? Because it's just so unattainable.
So. Tessa, I, I mean, I, I feel like I have a thousand more questions for you. This, this was amazing. Um, everybody needs to read both of your books. They were, were mind blowing for me in so many ways. So thank you for the work that you do, and thank you for being on the show today.
Tessa West: Yes. Thanks for having me. I had an amazing time chatting with you, and hopefully this will kind of help [00:45:00] people work through some of these sticky issues.
I think it definitely will.
Jen Fisher: We're back with another edition of Lira Lens, a special segment where we explore the workplace wellbeing implications of our conversations with leading experts. I'm excited to be joined once again by Karen Wasin, senior Manager, organizational development at Lyra Health, to unpack our fascinating discussion with Tessa West.
So Karen, what are your thoughts on Tessa's approach to dealing with jerks at work? Thanks, Jen.
Keren Wasserman: What I really appreciate about Tessa's approach to handling workplace jerks is she explains how to navigate them through understanding that work takes place within different kinds of systems. And if you can unlock those systems, you can overcome the jerk.
So, for example, if you've got a gaslight, someone manipulating the system through isolation, cutting people off, hoarding information. Your move isn't to retreat, it's to build connections, strengthen relationships, and in doing so, you are [00:46:00] starting to rebalance the social system in your organization so that person has a little bit less power and influence, or if there's someone bulldozing you talking over you, taking up all the space.
Tessa recommends shifting the dynamics by creating leadership moments where you have the floor, where you shape the dialogue. In my experience, one powerful yet subtle move, start amplifying others in the room, highlighting their contributions, their insights. It naturally reorients the conversation, creates allyship amongst your colleagues, and shifts attention away from the jerk, no matter the type of jerk you're dealing with.
Here's the real power play, instead of turning the tension into a personal conflict. Make, overcoming the jerk about improving the system of work. If you wanna discuss the matter with another colleague or your boss, look for ways to point to how someone's behavior is impacting the organizational system, such as work quality, team [00:47:00] performance and outcome.
This way you'll be less likely to be perceived as venting or gossiping, and you'll be much more likely to be perceived as simply being focused on improving the work itself. And what we can take away from this episode with Tessa is that workplace jerks thrive on influencing organizational systems.
However, when we take back our power and actively look to improve ways of working through actions like building connections and amplifying other voices, we not only shift the power dynamics, but also improve the quality of the work itself and create a workplace where everyone can thrive.
Jen Fisher: That's such an important distinction, and I also think it connects to her insights on job satisfaction too.
Karen, what are your thoughts on her recommendations around job person fit?
Keren Wasserman: Absolutely. Yeah. That one also struck me, and we're often asked at Lyra how we can help employees find greater job satisfaction and recover from burnout. In the episode, Tessa does such a [00:48:00] brilliant job breaking down job person.
Faye really helping us reflect on what makes work actually work for us. And her insights tied directly into research on burnout too. Her advice is spot on. Whether you're seeking greater job satisfaction or are recovering from burnout, take a step back and examine your work environment, your industry, your organization, and your role.
That perspective shift is the key to creating a healthier, more fulfilling work life. Tessa breaks this down in a really practical way, looking both at the macro and micro levels of job person fit. So at the macro level, she acts us to consider industry fit, not just company fit. She makes the excellent point that if you keep running into the same types of challenges or the same jerk, it may be a sign not only that you aren't at the right company, but you may be working in the wrong industry.
And then on a micro level, she explains fit can shift even [00:49:00] while working within the same organization. The job you're in right now might be perfect for you, but that next promotion, it could bring a whole new set of dynamics that aren't as well aligned with your preferred ways of working. The opposite can be true too.
And so what's powerful is that Tess's advice aligns perfectly with Christina Maslow's research on burnout that says burnout occurs when there is a misalignment between the person's needs. The demands of their work environment, Tessa's guidance on how to increase job satisfaction. And Christina's explanation of what causes burnout in her research are essentially two sides of the same coin.
So the question is, how do we help employees or help ourselves cultivate greater job satisfaction or recover from burnout? And for me, Tessa and Christina's research offers a workplace version of the Serenity Prayer. Really teaching us the wisdom to recognize our needs and what we can change about our environment.
With [00:50:00] that wisdom, we can make choices that support our wellbeing, helping us find roles, organizations, and industries where we can turn obstacles into opportunities for better job person fit, and improved business outcomes.
Jen Fisher: I love that so much, Karen. It's like, uh, the Karen Wasserman version of the Serenity Prayer at Work.
Oh, we'll be back with more Lear Lynn segments in future episodes as we continue to explore the intersection of work wellbeing and mental health.
I'm so grateful Tessa could be with us today to help us understand the psychology behind workplace dynamics and career satisfaction. Her insights on managing difficult relationships and finding genuine career fulfillment gives us practical tools for creating healthier working lives. Thank you to our producer and our listeners.
You can find the Work Well podcast by visiting various [00:51:00] podcasters using the key word work Well, all one word to hear more. And if you like the show, don't forget to subscribe so you get all of our future episodes. If you have a topic you'd like to hear on the Work Well podcast series or maybe a story you would like to share, reach out to me on LinkedIn.
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