Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
That's also a way to stand out, and it will really help.
Tyler:Yeah. You'd you'd be surprised, like, back to fundamentals, how what separates people the most is just being consistent, and if you say something, doing what you say, like, the bare minimum level. Like showing up as to your point, answering emails, do it, being consistent, you'd be surprised how much that separates you and brings you up to that that 10%.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's it. That's that's really it. And then, you know, next on top of that comes the We are kind of live now.
Nick:This is what I always wanted to say. We are live. We're Officially live. We are officially live. Exactly.
Nick:I mean, this is just an experiment.
Tyler:We are back. Episode. We're we're continuing on the episodes. How are doing, Nick?
Nick:Yeah. I'm I'm I'm doing well. How about yourself?
Tyler:Fantastic. Fantastic. It's a sunny day today, so I really that's all it takes for me these days. A sunny day and my mood mood shifts to the max.
Nick:Well, you know, I we just came out of a heat wave, so I'm very happy with a little bit of drizzle today and gray skies. Like, it's really the temperature is really going down, so I'm I'm more focused. I'm sleeping better. So I'm happy it's not sunny today, which is a crazy thing to say, I guess.
Tyler:Yeah. I was with you. A couple weeks ago, had a similar thing, just living inside with the air conditioning. So and that's not ideal.
Nick:No. No. No. I I have a two year old, as you know, and I have a cat. So it's an indoor cat.
Nick:So it's it's challenging for me to open up a window or a door even. So, yeah, the the heat stayed inside with us, sadly. But but there there there there's some UX thing real life UX thing we can do there, I guess, like a a cat proof opening somewhere.
Tyler:As long as you start with a wireframe, you're you're on your right path.
Nick:Yeah. You should ask Claude or or Lovable, see what they think. Exactly. But today, you know, weather out of the way, today we're talking about, you know, the the the big question I see so many people talking about online everywhere in the design community, which is, is it even worth it to study UX product design in today's day and age of of AI development, you know, especially if it's a one, two, and maybe even three year program. Like, if you go to a university Mhmm.
Nick:You learn stuff, and then before you even have your diploma, you might be, you know, obsolete or outdated. Yeah. So I think that's really important to to discuss. And I I have, I think, a strong view on it, but I'm also curious about your view. What do you think?
Tyler:I think maybe we can start where like, with each other. Like, where did you learn, like, product design? I'm curious if you went if you took a program at school, how did that how did product design come about for you?
Nick:Well, if if if you go really far back, like, far, is, you know, my my father still works in the same place as he did, like, twenty five years ago in a creative agency, like, really print media. You know, imagine flyers and brochures and posters and, you know, the the billboards and the stuff you see in supermarkets and train stations, that kind of stuff. And he brought a lot of his his work home with him, which spread the design virus my way. You know? I was very impressed as any small boy is, I guess, if his father brings something home from work.
Nick:So, you know, quote unquote, I wanted to do something with design without really knowing what type of design. I didn't know what UX was back in the day. Product design wasn't really an official job, I think. So I did a university four year university program called communication and multimedia design. Very broad, anything from design and marketing to, you know, programming.
Nick:You know, first two years, you do everything, and then in the final two years, so the second half, you pick one of four directions. Yeah. So it's six months for each direction. You know? Get a bit of lay off the land, a little bit of everything.
Nick:And then I went for the interaction as one of the four directions, interaction design. Mostly because I noticed that I really liked psychology, interaction design, you know, all that kind of stuff, animation also a little bit. And, well, before I really knew what UX was, I had a UX internship, you know, in the second half of that education and graduation projects also in the same direction, and then a first job in UX. So I did a you know, long answer short, I did a an old school traditional university education. I I guess you call it college over there.
Nick:I'm not not sure, but it's the University of Applied Science is what they call this, and, anyway, the design direction. So that's what I did. So I went from something with design to UX design. And since then, I've done basically any type of design role you can think of, anything from UX interaction to video editing and everything on that spectrum.
Tyler:Yeah. I think it came from a similar we actually I actually took that same that same college program. I don't know if it was similar, but it was it was called the communication multimedia. So it was the everything where you're interested in just things that were creative, but you didn't it was the program for just trying things out. But it was a two year program.
Tyler:So anything from painting, sculpting, film, graphic design, all things creative. Didn't really get anything much out of that program since it was always two years, but then found a looking for a graphic design course and happened to stumble upon one that was paired with programming. So it was fifty fifty programming and graphic design. I had only taken it, to be fair, for the graphic design portion. I was like, yeah, I'll I'll skip that that that second half of it, but I ended up liking it.
Tyler:So not from a to your point, probably UX design didn't exist back then or the official way. So I kind of had to stumble my way in as like things change. Went from making things pretty to realizing relatively quickly that there's a process and there's a skill set to be deployed when when creating, whether it's web design or or product.
Nick:Yeah. And then so that's two years. And then after another program that's also two years?
Tyler:It was actually a it was a ten month course. So it was intensive. It was to get you kind of quickly in and quickly out. So part of it was a ten month internship. Sorry.
Tyler:A ten month program, and then two months was an internship, which was part of the program. So you'd work somewhere for free, and then you would get I don't know if they do I don't know if they do that anymore, but two month internship, and you basically, you were graded on that portion too. That was part of your grade. How well you did in the actual world, which was good.
Nick:Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:So, you know, both of us, we've done a a multiyear education program around design and the different, overlapping areas.
Tyler:Yeah. So I think it sounds like, in many ways, we have a kind of design education. But I don't it doesn't sound like we have a traditional kind of product design or UX course that we have taken to get us up to speed. So it sounds like we're at least from my perspective, I don't know what you think about it. I'm I don't think you need to necessarily need a course.
Tyler:I think it depends on how you like to learn. Some people can learn just by going on Google or YouTube, doing a couple of tutorials. Others need, like, a a teacher in front of them, kind of guiding them through step by step. So I think it doesn't matter which jump off point you start with, whether it's traditional kind of structured school or self taught.
Nick:Well, it depends on the person, like you say. Yeah. You know, I like, really early days, I I watched a lot of Photoshop tutorials on YouTube, like how to edit pictures, like, you know, during take a picture from of yourself. And then in Photoshop, you can, you know, create, like, fireballs on your hands and and and, you know, turn yourself into a wizard or some sort of knight or anything cool. You know?
Nick:And, you know, first tutorial, did everything, like, exactly step by step. But After doing multiple tutorials, you become proficient enough to start to mix and match together elements from different videos. Like, that was a big, know, a big turning point for myself. So, you know, so that's what I and what your remark made me think of. Like, tutorial watching tutorials.
Nick:I think that's still a very good thing to do. I also think that question, like, big question, is it worth it to study UX and product design, you know, currently 2025 and also beyond, isn't really about, like, should it be a UX specific education? But more the question is more about, is it even worth it to study something, you know, whatever it is, to become a UX designer or a product designer in six months or longer Mhmm. And given that there's a lot of fear online about, you know, we're all going to lose our jobs. And then also on social media, you see a lot of people talking about how challenging the UX and the product design market currently is with hundreds of applicants.
Nick:Like, is it worth it to become the five hundred and first person on the list looking for a job? Yes or no? Yeah. So so
Tyler:so I I
Nick:think that's the thing that people are wondering, not really if it's about, you know, what type of education.
Tyler:Here here's what I'd say. What I didn't mention was I actually took a two was it a year and a half course in three d and two d animation? I was really into I stumbled upon this website. I was teaching After Effects tutorials. And I got really into, like, the idea of creating special effects for movies or creating character or building, like, three d models for video games.
Tyler:And through my, like, education, like, art has always been something that I've been really good at and that became very easy to me. So when I took that that three d animation course, to be fair, they kept giving out grades that were really good regardless of how well you were doing. So I wasn't taking it as serious as I should have. And what I didn't know was actually for that industry specifically, the percentage of jobs job placements after graduates is 33% Right. Which means it's very hard to get into, at that time, into the gaming industry.
Tyler:And because I didn't take it super seriously, I wasn't able to land a job in that field, hence the pivot to graphic design or web design. So all that to say, I think if you're serious about getting into product design, you have to work really hard. Make sure that you do the fundamentals, inter work for free, work really hard. And then I think it's going to be easier for you to find a career, if that's the step one. I to your point, boot camps, the industry is flooded with designers and products and people from product.
Tyler:I think you just have to stand out, and that comes with hard work. Stand out how? I think you just have to there's when I've been taking a look at people's portfolios and, like, CVs or resumes, and they they all look the same. I think there's you just have to separate yourself, not make not make yourself cookie cutter. So, like, first part of just doing anything is copying and then copying from something someone that inspires you.
Tyler:So it's like, first step is there are three people that inspire me that I love their work. I'm gonna copy one to one what they do. And as you get better, it's like music. You learn the music, and then afterwards, you add your own notes to it, which becomes your kind of unique style. Right.
Tyler:I I think part of getting hired is not always also your portfolio, who they want to work alongside. So so it's also your personality. So I think there's a variety of ways that you can stand out, but also you have to be good at the craft and and strategy as well.
Nick:You know, couple of things. I let's say, first, I agree with what you're saying, and it's the the advice I also give to people. Okay. You have to stand out. But I've been thinking more and more recently that it's it's valid advice, but it's also stupid advice at this time.
Nick:Tell me. Because well, because someone's new, you know, they're they're in school, they're young, or they come from a different field, you know, marketing or whatever, any anything like non design related, they don't know yet how to stand out. They don't know what the default thing is. They go to school like everyone else, and then the school teaches you the same thing with everyone there. So you you come out of school as a like an NPC.
Nick:You know, you come out as a default person. The standing out part comes after, like you say, you have to imitate, learn, see what people do, how they do it, and, you know, take the things you like, combine them together in in your own style. Like I mentioned with the Photoshop tutorials, like, at some point, you get the that that uptick moment of, hey. Now I get it. What if I pick a from this video, b from that video, and I create my own c?
Nick:You know? So that takes time, but people are expect to get a job right out of school, you know, because some boot camps promise you that you will get a job, you know, job guarantee, blah blah blah, that kind of stuff, which is, you know, not a not a fault of a designer. You know, I think that's more the fault of the boot camp or the education institutes. You know, they promise you stuff just so you pay them and sign up. So I don't know yet what a better advice is.
Nick:You know, standing out, but okay. But how? Well, keep practicing and expect it to take a while. I think that's that's maybe the disclaimer next to the standout thingy, which is still valid advice, of course.
Tyler:I also think hustle comes into play as well. I know I had an Orisa on this week. I had mentioned that I'd interned, which was free work. So I think doing a lot of when you get out of school, you're doing projects that are a bit cookie cutter. Like, in your portfolio itself, you have you wanna kinda stand out.
Tyler:I think part of that is I think either it reminds me of my uncle when he was looking for his first job in finance. They weren't he went to an adviser shop. That's probably not the right term. But he he went and he tried to apply he tried to apply for a position. They weren't hiring.
Tyler:So what he did was he went every day in the morning, he stood outside the building with a suit on every day for a month until they finally hired him. Now from that example, I don't think they hired his ability. I just think they hired the person that he was communicating that I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get a job here. So I think there's two avenues, either work for free, make just knock on doors, be persistent. And I think another way is maybe just create your own thing.
Tyler:I'd had a mentorship session recently where this woman created her own ecommerce store before even getting into to UX, meaning that they have something that's living and breathing. They launched, and it's real. And then having something like that in your portfolio, regardless of how well it did, I think shows a bit of that entrepreneurial spirit.
Nick:Yeah. That's great. Like, imagine you being graduate together with, you know, just to make things easier, 10 older people, you know, as a figure of speech. Like, they all have the same, you know, end of school projects, like the big project you do at the end. And then you have your ecommerce store, You know?
Nick:That that puts you, like, top three at least out of those 10. You know, I say top three and not top one because there are always companies who don't like the ecommerce stuff because they think like, well, are you even committed to my business with you working on your own thing? What if it takes off? Do you still want to work here? You know?
Nick:That's something that happens too sometimes. So, you know, but at least it moves you up the list. I I think we can talk a bit more about, you know, the tips to make it worth it. You know? Just to go back to that question, like, is it worth it to study something with all the things that are changing today?
Nick:I think, you know, just to just to give an answer, and then you can poke holes in my answer. You know? You can tell me tell me what you think and if you agree or not. But I think just a super short answer is yes. You know?
Nick:It's it's super worth it to study product design, wax design, or anything related, or, well, at least study something to become a product designer at some point. I think, you know, it's closely related to the AI era we're in. You know? And because that question mostly comes from the fear that you see on social media, you know, game changer, that kind of talking. Nothing's going to be the same.
Nick:UX just died, like, for the one hundredth time during my career, according to people on the Internet. It is worth it because I see in practice that I have more work to do than ever before. There's a lot of like, the the projects I work in, they have more AI. Like, if I work on a project, it's usually for a product or a platform or a service. That service has an AI component.
Nick:Like, that's changing. Like, we're working on something that used to be manual, and now it's something that's, like, AI driven or AI influenced. And I have a little bit of AI in my workflow. But I I feel like so many people are trying to dig up the AI gold today that they are really looking for help to stand out, you know, design wise. And we don't understand the best way to interact with this AI thing yet, so I feel like there's a lot of, you potential there.
Nick:I I think the product designer role is quite safe. And quite frankly, I don't really believe that creative roles or our type of work will disappear completely as some people will will say on social media. It's different compared to a year ago, but a year ago was also different compared to five years ago and compared to the start of my career ten years ago. It's just going to be a new set of tools. That's it.
Nick:And the the downside or the risk here is that you pick an education that's not going with its time, as we say over here. Not sure if that's a saying over there as well, but they have to they they have to pick a modern education with a good curriculum where they embrace AI and also talk about the risks and the downsides. You know? I I I think that's that's important. So and education is only a small part of the the whole thing, building a career.
Nick:It's a yeah. It's a it's a check on your list. Like, when I look for a job here in The Netherlands, which I'm currently not, but, like, remembering from the time that I was looking for a job, like, the first thing you see on the list is experience, and the second thing you see on the list is you need to have a degree a degree in one of these educations, you know, university programs or whatever. So it's important. But if you have it, it's just like, yeah, you can check that box on a job opening list.
Tyler:I think but to the education piece, well, it's less important because, like, we don't like, 90% of what you learn is on the job. 10% is that initial kind of base. And I think because things are changing so fast, finding that educational source is very it's gonna be very hard because they're gonna have to update the curriculum on a on a, whatever, on a monthly basis at the speed that everyone's going at right now.
Nick:To your point really believe that, by the way, that it's going that quick. I don't really believe it's like, if if something new comes out, you know, let's say, Claude four point o instead of 3.7, you know, it's quicker, it's faster, it's better. You know? But they're like the fundamentals you have to learn, like, how to explain what you have in mind in a prompt that the AI thing gets. Like, that's a fundamental skill regardless of the model version.
Nick:Like, you just have to be able to do it. I don't think it's going as as fast as people are saying.
Tyler:Yeah. And it I that's true. The fundamentals need to be there. And then what we call product design I don't know what the next iteration is, UI UX product. I think the fundamentals are true that they have to be financial, but what we call ourselves in the future will be different, and the tools that we use will be different.
Tyler:Yeah. I think the question goes to think just if you're interested in product in general, like, do you like to build things to solve problems? That's, like, the high level question. Like, do you like doing that versus the the design part. The I like to make these very intricate, kind of beautiful interfaces.
Tyler:It's like, do you foundationally, do you like making products to improve people's lives? And then the fundamental skills come into play afterwards.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's that's true. Like, you you have to know a you you have to enjoy your work. You have to see yourself work hard to to make it.
Nick:I think that's that's perhaps like, we're talking about fundamental skills, but you also have the fundamental more character traits, I would say. Like, you really have to want it, but that applies to any field, I think, unless there's a massive shortage in the field you're looking for. Like, you know, over here, there's a lot of shortage of like, not enough people for health care and construction and education. Nobody wants to be a teacher over here because you get yelled at the whole time, and you're working more in admin stuff than you are teaching people. So if you do decide to become a teacher, like, everyone wants to hire you instantly.
Nick:But I don't think that's the default. Like, if you want to go to tech, you know, because product design is more or less a tech role where you will probably work on software. There's more competition, but that applies to other roles in tech as well. You know, marketing, software development, front and back end, the whole, you know, the whole list. So I don't think that's a reason to decide to pursue designing a career in design or to not pursue it.
Nick:Like, it applies everywhere. But you have to be a top 10% designer to get a job. And that sounds harsh, but it's also not hard because I feel like getting into that top 10% is also about, like you say, standing outside in a suit. That's how you you're perceived. Like, are you replying to emails on time or, well, quick enough at least?
Nick:Does it contain any typos? Like, what's the grammar like? Are you friendly? Are you on time in meetings? Do You you dress well?
Nick:And it doesn't have to be a suit, but, like, are you wearing a smelly, wrinkly shirt? You know? Are you just are you a clean are you a are you a clean person? You know, that kind of stuff. That really really helps, and that that really moves you up to the the top, you know, x percent of of people already.
Nick:I I talked today to to someone who's like he told me, like, why is it so hard to find a designer? And then I'm like, I don't get it. There are, you know, hundreds of designers applying to the same job. And why are you, you know, are you telling me there's nobody there? Like, that might be on that person.
Nick:Like, maybe he has the bar too high, you know, unrealistic expectations. Or maybe, you know, out of all the applicants, lots of people are indeed using typos or AI generated, obviously, AI generated emails. I don't know. But, you know, I feel like it's it's if you are yourself, if you're authentic, if you write your own emails, that's also a way to stand out, and it will really help.
Tyler:Yeah. You'd be surprised, like, back to fundamentals, how what separates people the most is this being consistent. And if you say something, doing what you say, like, at the bare minimum level, like showing up, your point, answering emails, do it, being consistent, you'd be surprised how much that separates you and brings you up to that that 10%.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's it. That's re that's really it. And then, you know, next on top of that comes the the design fundamental skills, which is a whole different rant.
Nick:I'm not really going to to do today, but it's also the, you know, easiness I'm afraid of that we're all going towards. You know? Because naturally, our brain is wired to take shortcuts and survive, you know, from from our animal brain. So we can resist the AI speed that we have at our at our fingertips. But at some point, we will get lazy, you know, all of us in different ways.
Nick:You know? Just, you know, generate my resume, generate my cover letter. But if you resist it long enough, it will really help you. And it also applies to, you know, your work. Like like, I've I'm I'm not even that old, but I have I people taught me Gestalt principles and psychology and color theory and typography.
Nick:Like, nothing I do in my designs is random. You know? Every bit of margin and spacing and line heights and the use of color versus not so in different places, like, it's all based on design theory. And I don't feel like that's talked about enough in design educations. And if you, on top of it, generate a lot of stuff, you will never learn the fundamentals that you really need to learn to become a top 10% or top 1% designer even.
Tyler:Yeah. Of course. Like, you have to when you go to school, you learn how to write with pen and paper first. And then you can learn how to type. Because you're learning, like you have to learn what the letters are first.
Tyler:And then you have to learn, Okay, how words connected together. And then you're able to kind of fly. But if you skip that step, you're then like, if generating a bunch of stuff that you don't know what it's spitting out Mhmm. You're you're not you're not using the tools correctly. You're everything is supposed to enhance what your current abilities are.
Tyler:And if you're just spitting out for efficiency's sake, then you're we're we're spinning plates here.
Nick:Yeah. That's true. That's true. Yeah. So that's my concern, and I I feel like I'm turning more and more into this, like, a a grumpy old man Mhmm.
Nick:You know, shouting at new generation, like, know, back in our day, we did this and this. You know? But I see them struggle. Like, I see so many sad people on Reddit, for example. They say, like, well, I've done hundreds of I've I've applied hundreds of times for a job, and I have, like, five or six interviews, and nothing comes from it.
Nick:Mhmm. But then at the same time, like, I sometimes I comment on them, like, well, you know, you could try this and this and this, but it's it that it's like a contrast between what I suggest and what everyone else believes is quite high, and then I then I get lots of downvotes, which is quite funny, actually. But I want them to I want to help them. So I always hope that someone reads the comment. It's like, oh, I'm gonna try it, and that something comes from it for them.
Nick:You know?
Tyler:I think you hit on something. I think that might be a fundamental skill, the ability to get rejected. I think that comes with, like, our industry. Like, outside of, like, the the job rejections, like, making a thing, presenting it, and then having it being criticized is a skill and and not being emotionally disconnected between what you're presenting as a solution is a skill also. I remember early in my career, oh, I've made this thing.
Tyler:It's beautiful. And sometimes you would hide it and not present it because you don't you wouldn't wanna get that feedback. But part of being a product designer is showing something, having having it being criticized, or getting something rejected, and not being in your feelings about it because it's it's it's part of the process. Iteration is part of the process. Yes.
Tyler:Yes. Something gets rejected or something was somebody told you that they didn't like a thing, but we have to understand why. So I got rejected by a 100 jobs. Why did I get rejected by those a 100? Yeah.
Tyler:What can I do to improve my resume, my portfolio, etcetera? When I present a piece of work, it got it was 70% of it was criticized. Then I asked why, and then how did I improve it for the next iteration? Like, that's that's core to what we do is it's it's getting rejected and getting harsh feedback. Well, hopefully not harsh, but you see where I'm going there.
Nick:Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Of course.
Nick:Yeah. That's that's true. You can self criticize as well. Like, this is sometimes when let's say you have an idea to solve a certain problem in design, and then you work on it, and at some point, you hit a wall, and then you feel like, I'm not sure. But you keep trying that original design, but at some point, you have to be like, well, maybe this idea just doesn't work.
Nick:Maybe I have to take a step back. And that took me many years to be comfortable with, like, also with getting getting feedback, by the way. Like, I I had a big case of, but it's my baby syndrome. You know? But not not anymore.
Nick:That that also went very well together with blank sheet of paper syndrome, which I'm sure in in you know, there's a better word for it. But being a bit paralyzed about, oh, I'm going to make something, but I'm looking at this blank frame now here. There's nothing there yet, but but what if what if it doesn't work? What if people don't like it? You know?
Nick:And then I would really I would really freeze. But now I've I'm more like, okay. I'm just going to create something. I know it's not good enough. Doesn't have to be good enough yet because I'm going to create something, take a step back, and the next morning, I'm going to look at it again with fresh eyes.
Nick:And then it feels like I'm giving feedback on someone else's design. You know? And that really unlocks my, you know, speed of work. You know? So this is a bit of a side route in our in our discussion, but I think that's that's probably a skill people would need to to make it in in product design.
Tyler:Yeah. I agree.
Nick:Being able to take a step back.
Tyler:And then, like, to hit, like, the, like, the positive sides, like, if you, like, come something coming out of your head, working on it for a bit, whatever medium that looks like, and then having it hit the world, like, how proud you like, I don't know how you feel, but I'm so proud with everything that I released. It's like, I I had an idea. I put it, pen and paper, computer, laptop, whatever it is, and then I was able to launch it in the world and then Mhmm. Show it to someone. And it improved, Even if it improved their life by 10% or their work life, because we're built I'm building, like, software tools for for business.
Tyler:But, like, if I get a piece of feedback that, like, wow, this actually improved my life significantly, even if it's 10%, there's a reward. That's the best part of our job is we're creating tools to help fix or alleviate certain problems, and that's rewarding. So that's something to look forward to to get into this industry.
Nick:Yeah. That's that's true. That has for I can really see that. I have the same thing. I worked on an app for the you know, one of the largest banks we have over here, and you can still use that part of the app today.
Nick:I'm really proud. Like, hey. That's something I made. But also the scale, like, they have two they have 2,000,000 customers. You know?
Nick:That's a big influence as a designer. Like, you can really mess up the the the the day for millions of people, or you can make their day. You know? So that's that's a bit of pressure, but it's also very rewarding. And the other thing related to it is that it's also very nice if you if you talk to, like, a very stubborn user.
Nick:Like, you know, they're very set in their ways. Then in the end, if you're like, oh, well, it's not that bad. I I kind of like it now. That's a big victory. Like, if you can can achieve it, like, you can help someone through that valley of despair and help them go from I don't like it to I like it, like, that's a big that that's something that that could motivate people to go and work in in this field.
Nick:Like, you can really make a difference for how people, you know, use technology in their day to day.
Tyler:Yeah. True. Like, I think I mentioned it before, but, like, analytics and and sending out NPS surveys. I had mentioned a couple episodes ago that I would send out NPS surveys with emojis. So select your mood that represents your experience with with our software, and then tracking that emotion over time, going from a sad face to a happy face.
Tyler:Like, it's not overnight, but it takes it takes time, but you see the role. You get the reward in the end. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. Oh, yes. 100%. That's that's it. I mean, that's part of of of any career.
Nick:You know? You have to to collect the the spoils every now and then and and talk about it, you know, up to a level that is almost annoying. You know? But this is like, your career is about who you know, if you want a successful career, you have to raise your hands and and speak up and be visible. And, you know, that's a bit of advice I got, which I really didn't like, because by nature, I'm very much more more of a a background person.
Nick:But I yeah. I had to accept that it's part of the game. That's a good point. So so I really think, you know, it's it's worth it to become a a product designer in the age of AI, but, you know, it really has all the disclaimer points on our list. We just discussed, like, yes, but you really have to want it.
Nick:It's not going to be easy, you know, that kind of stuff. And we you also shouldn't really believe the hate and the sadness on social media. You know, you really have to take a step back and ask yourself if if that's representative for the for the full industry, or if it's just a place on the Internet.
Tyler:Be just a place in Internet, like, you get more negative. Like, how often do you leave leave a positive review on a restaurant versus if you had a terrible I don't know if you're that type of person to leave a negative review. But if you were to if you were to guess, I think the majority of people, if they have a negative experience, are more likely to leave a bad review versus if someone had an excellent time to leave a positive review. I think that's Yeah. True.
Tyler:It just becomes like an echo chamber of I think that's what's more visible. It's just the negativity. But if we're pragmatic about it and just kind of take the blinders off, I think it's more positive than negative.
Nick:Yeah. We are for sure. For sure. I I think the the biggest impact you can make to to, you know, to study product design is is not per se through formal education. You know?
Nick:I I I know processing what we're talking about in this this recording. I know in the back of my mind, I think what you said about, you know, copying people that inspire you and digest it and and dissect it and see what they do and how they do it and why they do it, and then, you know, turning it turning it into your own style, I think that's the best thing you can do, and that's something I still do to this day. Like, if if I I have on on Twitter, I have my list of, you know, design inspiration. It's a private list, so no need to look at it on my profile. You you won't find it.
Nick:But it's it's heavily curated too. Like, if some if some of people are on it and then whenever browse through the list and I don't like the work anymore, I remove them from the list. But still, when I see something, and I have ten years of experience that I really like, really zoom in and really take a look at the details. Like, what did I do there here? Why do I like this?
Nick:Can I improve it? You know? It's also an important question. So I think that's just that curiosity is something you should have not only in the beginning of your career or when you consider a career in product design, but it's something you should have, you know, always until you retire.
Tyler:In the same way. As much heat as liquid glass got, I I did actually try liquid glass on my own. Mhmm. I did try it. So, yeah, to your point, that curiosity is is is part of it.
Tyler:So I think if you're, like, to your point, like, if you're super hard worker and then you love things, you don't like doing repetitive tasks, like, industry changes so quickly. Mhmm. If you love change and being on your feet, learning new things, I think it's a perfect like, I think it's a perfect spot for you. It really keeps you on your toes in learning because you're on the on the daily. Yeah.
Tyler:Outside of, like, all the new fancy fancy tools that we're
Nick:that we're seeing. Do do you do you think like, because we're we're talking now a lot about things you should do. Are there also things where you would say, like, but please don't do this thing?
Tyler:Justin, like, has part of, like, the part of the craft? Like, when
Nick:Well, I I can give you an example. I think if if, let's say, you consider a boot camp and they talk a lot about design thinking in the literal sense, like, here are the five steps to design thinking. I feel like that's a bit outdated. So so, yeah, be aware of what they are going to teach you. You know?
Nick:I think don't Yeah. Focus too much on design thinking because I have had an education where design thinking and the double diamonds blah blah blah was, like, the default. And I went to a corporate job where they sold the design the double diamond to their nondesigner customers, and they were all like, woah. Woah. Woah.
Nick:You know? But then in practice, I haven't done a design thinking based project in as long as I can remember. Like, the the the difference between, like, what you learn and what you apply in real life is massive there. So, you know, so that's just an example. Like, is there anything you would Yeah.
Nick:Stay away from both in terms of, topics to learn, but also your way of working and that kind of stuff?
Tyler:Yeah. I think of something along the same lines is there is a pro like, if you go to school and you learn, like, the design process to not be so rigid in that you have to follow that process every single time. I see some people want, like, here is the process. Step one, step two, step three. And they have to go through all these steps because it's part of the ideal workflow.
Tyler:But when we're out in the real world working for a company, things sometimes you don't have time to do certain things. Sometimes you skip steps. But, yes, I would have loved to test that one thing before we launched it. But guess what? We didn't have time.
Tyler:We had to go on to the next thing.
Nick:Don't need steps.
Tyler:Exactly. So I think to not be so rigid is is is my advice. It's good to be flexible. You don't have to do everything perfect. Nothing will be perfect.
Tyler:It's all part of the process.
Nick:Yeah. If, you know, if you look at the design thinking stuff, they have, like, I don't even I'm not even sure if I remember the five steps. But, you know, it's ideate and then, you know, blah blah blah. But so that that's how much how far I've fallen out of the design thinking bubble that I don't even I cannot drill the one, two, three, four, five, the the steps right now on the spot. But I feel like it's like, the the actual process for basically any project is, you know, understand what needs to be done.
Nick:Do it. Yeah. Like, that's all. And, you know, this that that it's a bit black and white, but, you know, in practice, you have to talk about scope and what can we include, and can we test yes or no? Do we need a an MVP or version one, version two, or blah blah blah?
Nick:That that business talk usually around, like, how many how well, how much money do we have for this? How much time do we have? Like, that's part of the that first step. So it's understand, do, repeat. Exactly.
Nick:That's bay that's basically it. I remember when I was fresh out of school, I explained agile and scrum, you know, something nobody talks about anymore to my father. Then it was really hip and and cool back in the day, like agile and scrum. And he told me like, oh, but I've been doing that for forty years. Oh, that really at that time, talking talking about, you know, like you said about taking a hit and accepting feedback.
Nick:I was really confused at that time. Like, no. That's not possible. It's new. Blah blah blah.
Nick:You don't know what you're talking about. But, you know, I guess he was right, you know, in in hindsight. Like, it's it's you know, we should be maybe that's my advice also. Like, you should be aware of fancy keywords, you know, wrapped around an old school way of working that's been around for a long time.
Tyler:You know? I think it was the fancy title, Scrum Master, which always had a bit of royalty royalty to it.
Nick:Oh, yes. Yeah.
Tyler:Have a school. In charge. Scrum master is coming in. Yeah. Yeah.
Tyler:Toot the horns.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:Well, but but that's that's still something that's in like, I I've been everywhere, like, from large multinational corporations. I've worked at the largest company in The Netherlands. Like, if you look as how big they are on the the stock market, there are so many scrum masters there and product owners and all these, like, overhead roles, where I feel like this is really a waste of time. Like, you know, you shouldn't ban it altogether, but it can be toned down a bit. And then if you look at startups, like, there are no scrum masters.
Nick:Like, we we call it a founder over there. You know? And, you know, it's probably a middle way that's best. You know? And I know it's not as easy as that, but the division, like, the difference between the two is is massive.
Tyler:Yes. Yes. To your point, we called be be aware of branding to our last conversation. It's just where there is classical techniques or foundational kind of strategies. We're just they pop up in a they rebranded in a cool way that we did adopt for a little while that we that we let go.
Nick:Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure. Oh, that you really really shouldn't, you know, get confused by it. You know, for example, now, you've probably heard it yourself, is that Shopify is not using UX anymore in their job titles.
Nick:It's just a designer now. And people are really, you know, falling off the ship because of it. They are really like, oh, no. See, UX is dead. But I I I don't really think it matters what one company does.
Nick:Because I've been in a company where they didn't have seniority, for example. Like, everyone was just UX designer or yeah. Super flat. And then in another place, came in. I felt like, well, I'm a senior designer.
Nick:And then they told me, like, no. You're a junior designer. And that hurt my feelings, and then I got confused. So, you know, it's just companies don't really understand or well, maybe that's not fair to say. Companies have different values for labels.
Nick:You know? What a senior person is, what a UX designer is, what a product designer is. But in practice, it's you do more or less the same thing, so it doesn't matter. So that's maybe another don't on the list of do's and don'ts. Like, do not get confused or do not become unmotivated because people make a change by one company way too big.
Tyler:We would have had the same would we have had the same reaction to Shopify at the time back in the day. Like, we're no longer using the term web designer anymore. Yeah. Same thing.
Nick:Yeah. True. True. Well, that's a fun fun thing also that, you know, a web designer, you know, back in the day is designing for the web. But I don't see web designer a lot anymore as a job title, but we're still designing for the web.
Nick:So it's, you know, it's just a label. It doesn't really matter. The the like, if you connect the don't to a do, like, don't get confused by changing labels, but the do attached to it is you have to speak the language of the current label. Like, my resume was senior UX designer as a title. Now it's senior product designer.
Nick:Like, I just changed the label because I know in practice, it's the same work. And I know, you know, my career, I will change it a couple more times to whatever is going to be the the accepted label at any given point.
Tyler:Yes. I guess to answer the question, what are you a yes or a no? Should someone invest into becoming a product designer?
Nick:Oh, yeah. 100% yes. It's it's worth it. It's fun. It's achievable, and I think it's quite AI safe.
Nick:Yes.
Tyler:Not as safe as a plumber, but still safe.
Nick:Well, you don't know. Nobody knows. That's maybe a good side note. Nobody knows anything.
Tyler:Exactly. I am with you. I think, yes. I think well, I do this on a daily basis. I wouldn't I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't love it.
Tyler:So to all our previous points, if you meet the requirements, absolutely yes.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. If if you work hard and search for a mentor, by the way, that's something to both you and I, we we both mentor people, if that's a verb, to mentor someone. Yes. That's something we do.
Nick:I think having a a good mentor, someone who's on the job, is a massive benefit.
Tyler:That's a secret unlock.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Which also almost makes this one hour recording session appear like it's some sort of, you know, product placement as for for your mentorship services and mine, which it which it isn't because it just came up No. To to me. Yeah.
Nick:But you you should to anyone listening, you you should have a mentor session with Tyler because all I hear is good stuff coming out of it. Appreciate that. I think we have Probably a a link we can put somewhere.
Tyler:Some somewhere somewhere in the description. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:I think it's on our our on our website. Right? On the yes.sciencetablepodcast.com website. I think we have a very short in progress about the host page where we have some links to our stuff. Right?
Tyler:Yeah. Let's push some more traffic towards our website there. Yeah. Doing great job maintaining.
Nick:Yeah. Well, thank you. Well, that's that's that's maybe an interesting thing to talk about next time. Also a little bit, like, our day to days and our site hustles because we have, you know, full time work, but we also do some stuff on the side. And one of the thing those things is this show.
Nick:And you are the editor, and I'm the website slash growth builder person. So we we we do both we both do interesting stuff behind the scenes for for this show. Right? Yeah. I think that's It'd be
Tyler:cool to pull the curtain back and then get into the to nitty gritty what we do on a day to day basis outside of our
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:To your point.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's going to be super interesting. You know?
Nick:It's I I think on social media, you see a lot of people, they just talk about the same things. You know? Liquid glass, good. Liquid glass, bad. Shopify UX, good or bad.
Nick:You know? It's just talking and echoing what everyone's already saying, but I really think the next episodes, like unscripted, is going to be a gold mine of, you know, interesting UX and product design insider stories.
Tyler:I'm with you. I didn't know that we were scripted. I think everything we do is unscripted.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I gave away the biggest secret now.
Tyler:Yeah. There you go.
Nick:Yeah. We're not even real. We are AI voices. That's a joke, by the way.
Tyler:Great conversation. I love this topic. Yeah. Me as well.
Nick:Alright. Well, that's it for today.
Tyler:That's it. On to the next. On to the next. Next episode. Alright.
Nick:See you then.
Tyler:That was a great episode. So if you like this content and wanna hear more, please like and subscribe.
Nick:Yeah. And if you want to see more, please go to designtablepodcast.com, Spotify, Apple Music, all the big players, and more.