100 | Chris Walker | Bootstrapped vs. VC Funded & The Pursue of Founder's Freedom

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, Chris Maffeo welcomes Chris Walker, an entrepreneur known for his insights into bootstrapping and the modern startup environment (he is the Founder of Refine Labs and Passetto). His work on the Stacking Growth Podcast (Ex Revenue Vitals) inspired him to launch his podcast.

They discuss common misconceptions about the need for venture capital, the importance of overcoming limiting beliefs, and the essential skills every founder should master.

Chris shares his experiences and thoughts on why many businesses fail due to unnecessary funding and the mental barriers hindering entrepreneurship.

The discussion also covers how to achieve personal alignment, the myth of media glorification, and the reality of building a sustainable business. Tune in for valuable lessons on creating and scaling businesses effectively.

00:00 Welcome to the Maffeo Drinks Podcast

00:09 Inspiration and Beginnings

01:11 Bootstrapping vs. Venture Capital

03:33 Overcoming Limiting Beliefs

06:45 The Reality of Entrepreneurship 1

15:14 Procrastination and Action

18:07 The Power of Self-Belief

32:49 Final Thoughts and Farewell

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Chris Walker

Founder | Encoded | Refine Labs

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast where brands are built

bottom up.
I'm Chris Mafael and in each

episode me and a new guest crack
how drinks go from 1 bottle to 1

case to 1 pallet hit.
Follow and leave a review to

help new drinks builders find
it.

Now let's break it down
together.

Hi Chris, welcome to the Mafia
Drinks podcast.

What's up Chris?
Happy to be here.

It's a great honor.
I've been following your journey

since early 2020, back when B2B
revenue virus used to be called

the State of Demand Gen.
You inspired me to launch the

Mafia Drinks podcast, so I think
all the listeners should be

thankful to you because you are
the one to be thanked for.

Well, you're welcome everyone,
but.

Really, it's all you.
I might have been the.

Little spark for you.
But doing 100 episodes is a

massive.
Feat of.

Discipline and consistency and
passion and a lot of other

things that are clearly inside
of you, and I think that

celebrating that as well is
good.

Thank you, Chris, I appreciate
it.

I remember when I started
putting all the episodes, I took

inspiration from your numbering
episodes.

I remember when I put the 001
and I was thinking, why am I

putting 001?
It doesn't make any sense.

It's just episode 1.
But then I said no, because this

is the signal that I'm going to
hit the hundreds and I want it

to be consistent when it hits
the hundreds.

So that's why I'm so happy to
celebrate it with you and all

the listeners.
I.

Love that.
This is going to be a very

interesting episode, but also
quite different because you're

not from the drinks industry as
such, you have launched and

bootstraps so many companies.
I want to pick your brain on,

you know, advices for actual
founders, which is a lot of the

the listeners of this podcast,
but also people then want to

make the jump from big
corporations to launching their

own brands and becoming
entrepreneurs.

So let's start the you've done.
I mean, I call it built bottom

up, you know, in my language,
but basically means

bootstrapping.
What are the biggest learnings

for you on bootstrapping your
companies?

At its highest level.
I think that there's somewhere

between like one in 5% of
businesses today that are.

Appropriate to raise.
Some type of venture capital

funding, however 95% of founders
do they need it only 5% of

businesses are really.
Appropriate for it and.

You have this total mismatch
which leads to a ton of

businesses getting funded that
don't have the market cap or the

market.
Size or.

Any type of need for that type
of funding?

It leads to this level.
Of thinking for entrepreneurs

that I'll build my business when
I get funding.

It's like, no, actually you
could build it right now.

You have a thought in your brain
that I need $2,000,000 in

funding to get?
This idea off the.

Ground and maybe that.
Idea was right.

In 2011 or 2014, but it's
definitely not right now.

There's also just the way that.
Digital environment works.

You don't have to raise from
venture capital.

You can do friends and family.
You can do a.

Lot of other creative.
Financing things.

If you want to build a product
that requires some type of

capital investment upfront, you
can deliver some type of service

as a method to cash flow and
build the funding to fund your

own product.
So let's do an example.

OK, let's say you're a.
Fitness trainer, right?

You want to build a digital app
that like does fitness training

because you think that'll be
more scalable than just training

eight people a day in a gym.
And you're like, oh, but I don't

have the $100,000 to build the
app, so I guess I'll just never

do it, right?
You could just build a.

In person training business
where you have 7 trainers that

train your clients that build
this revenue and all of a sudden

in three months you have
$100,000 to then go and build

your thing and now you have two,
two independent strong

businesses.
I just think the people need to

get out of their own way and to
stop thinking it's a thoughts in

your.
Head that are like.

I can't build the business
without funding or I'll build my

business when I have X amount of
money.

That's one that a lot.
Of people do which.

Prevents them from just jumping.
I've started my business with

$3000 in the bank and $60,000 in
student loan debt.

Did I feel ready?
No.

Was I financially ready?
No.

Would I have chosen it for
myself?

No.
I got pushed into it and it was

the best that ever happened to
me.

There's a lot of really good
things that have happened in my

life, so.
It's hard to say what is the

best, but that was a real.
Top one for me of going there

when I didn't think I was ready
and to be honest with everyone,

you're never going to.
Feel ready for the people that

are looking for that little.
Boost of a jump.

It's like, why not?
Now write down the list of why

not?
And then actually look at if.

There are are these facts.
That are getting in your way or

are they limiting beliefs that
you have?

I'll just Fast forward it to
you.

They're all limiting beliefs to
where your thoughts and your

brain get in your way of doing
what.

Is right for you.
I discussed it with one of my

best friends, Francesco, which
is a photographer now, and we

always talking about, you know,
like buying all the fancy gears,

you know, when you want to be,
you know, you want to become a

photographer and you think that
you need the expensive camera

and all the lightings and all
the thing.

And it was the same thing when I
launched my podcast, to be

honest, I'm still recording in
my home, in my studio.

I remember when I bought the
first fancy mic and in the end I

was like, I would have bought
the cheapest mic.

There was kind of
procrastination thing.

And then I just said, you know
what, I just go and hit record.

The first one would be bad and
then let's see.

It's very interesting also what
you're saying about taking side

the kind of like ideation
businesses that may fund the

journey because you could launch
a drinks brand by being a

consultant of other things.
And then at some point you build

the drinks business, but you're
building the funding without

having to be there.
You're speaking from a good

place because back when you
launched, there was the glory

days of VC and easy capital,
easy money in 2019 and so on.

But it's time to go.
For it, I mean, yeah, if you

think back to it, it was
probably 2017 and then it

accelerated into the crash of in
end of 21.

And at that point, it was cool.
To say you raised.

The $10 million seed round, a
lot of people still think it's

cool.
And when I read it now, I'm

like, wow you?
Just dug yourself a huge.

Fucking hole.
Because you have three acts.

Preferred returns on that and
you have.

So let's say you have. 300 or
500,000 ARR right.

And then you raise that
valuation, you need to sell the

business for $30 million in
order to pay your investors

their preferred returns before
you make a dollar.

Another thing is that now that
you're on the train, most likely

you're going to be on the train
forever as you keep raising more

funding and that preferred
return number keeps going up.

I think that people have seen it
for so long as the only option.

Of how you build a.
Business or especially

businesses that require some
type of capital investment

upfront in terms of software
development or or you're

building something that requires
some big machine or

manufacturing or whatever.
And so it becomes this thing

that basically overtime.
You create this jail for

yourself.
And slowly give away your

business, yeah.
It's kind of like a catch 22 now

because very often it's people
that want to set themselves free

by leaving a corporate job or
doing something on their own,

but then they just get
themselves another job with

another boss because it's
basically like who gave them

money?
They need to report into that

personnel.
So it's, it's a kind of like a

cancer into the thing and then
people think they have to do it

rather than exploring different
options, right?

Yeah, to be.
Clear.

You can bootstrap your company
and own 100% of it or majority.

Share.
And still feel like you're

trapped in a jail.
Like.

And what are you trapped in a
jail then?

Like maybe you don't have
freedom over your time.

Maybe you don't have freedom
over which clients you choose

because you have to keep paying
the bills.

Maybe you don't have freedom
around where you are in the

world are the people that you
spend time with.

Or all these other types of.
Freedom that come outside of

financial freedom that I've been
studying a lot the past six

months because money is not it.
Money helps.

Money can be a good thing.
But what I find when I interact

with a lot of people.
Is.

Especially entrepreneurs.
There's a.

Lot of a lot.
Of entrepreneurs that have a lot

of money that aren't happy, that
don't have, don't have that like

struggle in there like with
their wife or husband because

they pour all their energy into
this business that sucks their

energy and they can't be a a
good partner.

They don't have time, they can't
take a vacation, they can't go

on a date.
And that's for entrepreneurs.

It's also for people that.
Work in a nine to five or work

at Goldman Sachs and make
$400,000 for Goldman Sachs and

work 16718 hours a day and
they're on this hamster wheel

doing that and their lifestyle
and their expenses go UPS.

They have the $10,000 penthouse
in Manhattan and all of a sudden

like they're making $400,000
living paycheck to paycheck.

I say these things because I've
done all of them, right?

I'm not coming from some place
of like, look at me how good I

am.
Look at all these people.

No, I've lived all these
different lives and it's just

generally not fulfilling.
I think about this all the time.

I remember I used to be in
corporate and then at some point

I saw that my salary was
growing.

And then I thought, I always
explain it as I jumped off the

train.
I felt that this train was

leading to a direction that I
didn't want to.

And then at some point I said,
it's better, I better jump off

here then then wait for the next
stop because I just build on an

infrastructure of goods and
physical things.

And I don't want that.
And then at that time, my

daughter was born and mother,
family reasons.

But then sometimes you went
through this vicious circle

because I'm often the guy that
never switched off and I don't

see my friends because I'm going
on working, working, working,

because I love what I'm doing
and because I'm building

something for the future, how to
do it sustainably now.

Because sometimes we, you know,
I listen to some of your latest

episodes where you said you just
came back from holidays and took

a few weeks off.
Sometimes you feel I cannot take

weeks off because the world will
collapse if I take 3 weeks off.

But the world is still here,
right?

Yeah, I know that clarity.
Creates speed if clarity

creates.
Speed and speed is the actual

outcome.
Then what?

Creates clarity.
Think about it.

Alignment of what I found for
myself.

Alignment with myself and my.
Purpose is what creates clarity.

How do I create alignment with
myself by eliminating all of

these programmed conditioned
beliefs that are in me like I

need to have some?
Great car to be cool.

Or I need to?
Suffer to be successful or.

I'm not good enough until my
business does 5 million or 10

million or 100 million or you
name the number, it doesn't

matter.
And when you eliminate these

beliefs and you have clarity on
what you're trying to.

Do you realize that?
80 or 90% of the shit you do

doesn't matter and you're just
doing stuff to do.

Stuff right?
I used.

To think that it was productive
to sit in front of a.

Laptop for 12 hours a.
Day and just do stuff.

Now I get 10 times more done by
just doing three or five things

a day that are the actual things
that matter.

It could be 1 phone call, It
could be putting one person in

charge of something.
It comes down to removing all

these things that get in the way
of you making the right

decisions for yourself.
It's really what it comes down

to.
But so overtime, as I've been

able to, and I mentioned some of
the ones that were real for me,

right?
I'm not good enough until my

business does X.
When you break it down, what

I've.
Realized is that like that?

A business, just one little
compartment in your life, right?

And you have all these different
compartments in life.

The box that.
Holds all these different

compartments.
Should be effortless, not hard.

When you listen to yourself and
follow what you already know,

and you clear all these things
that are getting in the way of

scarcity mindsets and guilt and
shame and conditioned beliefs,

then you can just move.
Fast.

It literally feels effortless.
And I I say this from a place

knowing that people that listen
to this podcast.

Are like Oh yeah easy for you to
say bro you've built 4.

Businesses and you have a bunch
of money, it must be.

Easy for you to say.
And I can say right back to

them, I was the most financially
wealthy of my life in the peak

of 2022 on paper, and at the
same time, I was the least.

Happy and felt the least free.
The people that are thinking

that that is your reaction based
on conditioned programming.

Of like yeah, if I.
Had $10 million.

I'd be happy too.
And let me tell you, I've been

there before and it's not a
guarantee that you'll be happy.

There's a lot more to life than
money, and money matters.

And I love money and I love what
it can do for myself and for my

family and for my friends and
for my experiences.

I just have a different.
Relationship with money than

most people now.
That's a big learning there.

So going back to the founders
freedom, there is this element

of the people think they need
external investment because they

think they need to be in 20
markets with their products or

they need to put it on that
PowerPoint Peach deck

presentation that my brand, my
tequila is sold in 63 countries

and my whiskey is sold in 15
plus countries and and so on.

Isn't it better to set up a
business that makes 2 million

and maybe grow to 5 million
versus going from 10 to $100

million?
I talked to people that are.

Trying to do things like.
This when it's people that are

just at the.
Beginning right?

Like trying to decide.
Like what do I do?

Where they're at a million and
all of a sudden they want to

expand to 9 markets with
different products.

The people that haven't made the
jump yet, they're like, oh I

need 2 million in funding or I
won't be able to get into 9

markets so I won't do it right
now or different things like

that.
Are literally.

Just attaching a reason.
To.

Rationalize that they don't feel
good enough, confident enough,

or have enough self worth to try
it and potentially.

It not work out.
And when it's so all the reasons

that, and I found this out
recently as I start to coach

people with a different
intention, whenever somebody is

talking about something outside
of them, it's literally just a

mirror.
For what they either lack.

Or don't believe about
themselves.

So you know all all feel more
successful when I have make

$30,000 a month, right?
Like, no, it's really just that

you don't feel worthy or
successful on your own and

you're searching for something.
Outside of you to prove to

yourself that you are.
There can be examples in

relationships.
It's actually a big flag and I

recognize it with myself.
It's super powerful.

It when you are searching for
something outside of yourself,

it's a hint.
For you that you have.

Something that's going on with
you.

So it could be money, feeling
successful or impressive,

worrying about what other people
think, caught up in how many

likes you get or how many
podcast downloads you get, or

how many.
People show up to the.

Event that you do, it just
becomes a really interesting

mirror.
People call it self.

Awareness to me.
It's a lot.

Deeper than that, it's truly
knowing yourself and being.

Aware that your.
Brain is running an operating

system.
Your body runs an operating

system and there's programs that
run in your brain that don't

serve you.
And you didn't install those

programs.
They get installed and

conditioned into you by the news
media, school, your parents,

past relationships.
Doesn't matter where it came

from.
You didn't put it there, someone

else put it there.
And to realize that you have

control of whether that
programming runs in your body

and your brain or not.
I think that's super powerful.

I think it's a level much higher
than self-awareness.

And what about the fact that the
founders feel that they have to

raise this much money?
I was making the example before

about myself, the
procrastination.

Also is it also about the fact
that I feel I need that much

money?
But then probably it hides

inefficiencies within my
company, because if I can

bootstrap it with 100K just the
same number, but then I raise 5

million, that gives me an
allowance to try so many

different things and not make
choices, not make efficient and

effective choices.
So let's talk about the.

The business part next.
But first let's talk about

procrastination.
What is procrastination on paper

it.
Is it is.

Lack of action or delay of
action, so it's actually not

doing anything is an action,
right?

So procrastination is an action.
Why do we take?

Actions, we take actions based
on our emotions and how we feel.

And so when you have, when you
feel, when you're doing

procrastination, you're doing it
because you feel a certain way

and you feel a certain way
because you think certain

thoughts and beliefs.
So really isolating in on

procrastinating.
Which is probably because you.

Feel shame, guilt, lack of
confidence, fear, scarcity, some

low vibration emotion.
And then thinking, what is the

thought that I'm thinking?
And then you have the thought.

And then you have the
circumstance of I'm trying to

start a business and I need
$2,000,000, right?

Or I'm trying to raise
$2,000,000.

So then isolating the thought
about what am I thinking right

now that's causing the
procrastination.

You know I want to do this, but
I'm scared that I won't be.

Successful.
What will people?

Think if I fail, I'm not smart
enough to do this?

You could make 100 different
examples of potential thoughts.

The only person that knows that
is you being the person that's

listening, right?
You know your thoughts says I'm

not smart enough to.
Do this so.

Your emotion is like shame or
something in that area, and then

your action is procrastination.
And then your result is I'm not

smart enough for this because I
didn't do anything.

You just run the program over
and over again.

And so procrastination and lack
of action becomes a huge hint

negative emotions that.
You feel also are huge.

Hints about what am I thinking
or what or what am I doing?

That is that.
Is driving this self doubt is

something that I didn't mention
in there.

That also plays a huge role.
Here on the procrastination

side, use it as a hint.
Negative emotions, use it as a

hint and you can literally go
through that program that I just

talked.
Through.

You have a circumstance.
My business gets a new customer.

I try to talk to an investor and
they say they're not going to

invest in me.
Circumstances happen outside of

you.
Whatever happens then drives.

How do you have a thought or a?
Program that runs which then.

Drives how you feel, what
actions you take.

Or lack of action the.
Result that you get.

The result is just.
Confirmation bias.

To what you already?
Thought in the beginning and

when you follow that line you
realize that what I think and

what I it's actually not what I
think it's.

What I believe, my beliefs.
Create my reality, my beliefs.

Drive how I feel, what I.
Do and the results that I get in

my life, if you can fully
internalize that, then that's

absolute power.
It's so true.

I'm living proof.
Of that I have.

Totally shifted my entire life
in the past five years through

reprogramming my mind on the
business side.

I talk a lot.
About how I think venture

capital is unnecessary if you
just put it on paper and you

have.
The two paths of like.

I raise venture capital as a
founder or I bootstrap as a

founder that from a financial
standpoint, a freedom

standpoint, a timeline,
autonomy.

Like I could go through a list
of things that bootstrapping

wins in every category and the
only category it doesn't win in

is if you want to build Meta or
you know what I mean, like a

company like that.
And honestly, there are, there

are plenty of examples of
companies that build billion

dollar companies with no
funding.

We haven't lived enough of this
time, which is a time where AI

is dominant.
You can.

Build products super fast.
Digital and social have totally

evolved.
We haven't lived enough time for

big companies to get to that
level without funding.

It happened, it's already
happened, and it will continue

to happen more than it used to.
I've gone through some examples

of my Instagram.
I'll try to reiterate here from

a financial standpoint.
Let's say you're the founder of

a software startup and.
You raise.

You raise venture.
Capital and with the valuation

doesn't matter.
You raise venture capital.

You.
Sell 20% of your business.

OK, and you have a Co founder.
So now you and the Co founder

both own 40% and your investors
own 20%.

And you go through another two
rounds and all of a sudden your

investors and the board own way
more of the company than each of

you, even with the covenants and
the warrants that VC investors

place.
And when you get that first

check, you no longer own or
control your business.

They need to approve when you
sell it.

They can approve or disprove how
much you get paid.

Likely they can fire you
whenever they decide or whenever

they want if you're not doing
the right things or you're not

hitting their growth
expectations or the things that

you put in your.
Pitch deck or whatever.

In one swoop, you've lost total
autonomy.

You you will let most likely be
drives to.

Burn money to that being for
like a layman is that like your

company does not make a profit.
You are instructed to lose money

because you have this big lump
of money and they think.

Oh, the faster we.
Spend the money the.

Faster, we'll grow, which is
laughable.

When you follow that path,
companies give you money, you

give away part of your company,
you waste the money based on

their expectations, and you
slowly give away your company

for nothing.
It's not for nothing that would

be.
Overstated, but if you waste.

The money and you spend.
It irresponsibly, Yeah, you're

effectively.
Giving away your company for

almost nothing.
If you don't make a profit, you

can't take a distribution, which
is the big point that I'm trying

to make here.
And so in that path you make a.

Salary as the.
CEO, let's say it's $300,000 a

year.
Or 4 Let's just say. 300 and

then you have no additional.
Maybe you get a bonus if you

like beat your plan so you cap
out your.

Salary, let's say 500.
K If you crush your plan and

then you don't make any more
money until you raise another

money and sell secondary stock.
Or you sell the entire company

and then if you take the
bootstrap route you can make

$300,000 whenever your company
can.

Afford it, which is probably.
Like a million.

A million too.
You match the.

Salary that you had?
And then every single quarter,

as the company makes a profit,
you can take a distribution of

the profit should you want.
Let's say a company's going to

do 20% profit at a million.
So now there's a $200,000

additional profit distribution.
Now you're already matching what

you would make in venture
capital.

And then as your business grows,
that 20% keeps growing and then

as the business.
Grows the value of the business

keeps.
Growing and you own 100% of it

or a 50% if you have two Co
founders if you just break it

down from the financial
rationale excluding autonomy

control.
Being able to do what feel what

is right for you.
Morally and ethically, because

there will be misalignments at
some point between investors and

shareholder investors versus
what you want to do as the

business owner and the leader, I
push people to think about it

because.
I've lived the life of.

Going a bootstrapping round and
I learned a bunch of lessons.

Trust me, I did not play it.
The best that I could.

Have played it, I'm happy with
how it worked out.

It got me here and I'm always
think that's what matters.

I could have played it way
better if I go.

Back and do it again.
I'm an entrepreneur.

I'll play it differently and
I'll get.

There half as.
In half the amount of time and

half the amount of problems and
mistakes and things like that,

and it just on paper works out
better and what I think is every

important category for an
entrepreneur.

I've been listening to many of
your podcasts on this topic.

It's super interesting because
it goes back to what you were

saying about self beliefs like
procrastination and all those

things.
Very often what I see in my

field with drinks companies is
that the founders may come from,

I don't know, they are lawyers
or an accountant or whatever.

They're not used marketing and
selling alcohol beverages.

So they think that they need the
money to actually hire a team of

people to go out there and sell,
for example.

Sometimes it's also like the
fact that, OK, like go out there

and actually make it and learn
and do more small experiments to

actually understand what it
takes for your product to

succeed rather than having a
bunch of money that you have

raised.
And then you still don't know

what to do with that because you
still have no experience.

You may have some experienced
people in the board that you

know from the VC or the
investors that gave you money,

but ultimately maybe they don't
know how to do it from the

bottom up, as I like to call it.
So it's a vicious circle.

How do you break that?
You say, OK, I go the

bootstrapping way and I grows at
a slower pace than anticipated

on the pitch deck, but it's a
totally different ball game.

I mean this.
I'm trying to come up with a

with a good analogy here.
But like what people want is

they they want to say, OK, I
have an idea and maybe I have a

couple.
Of skills or.

Experience that are somehow.
Related to that idea.

But there's these ten other
things that I don't have and

instead of figuring them out so
I can be a complete entrepreneur

in this space and like learning
all the things that are

necessary, I'm just going to try
and.

Take the shortcut shortcuts
Never.

Work by the way and hire 10
people and hopefully they can

figure it out for me.
And let me be clear, once you

have the skill and know how to
hire people and then you can

take.
That path, but as a.

First Time entrepreneur If you
don't know how to sell and you

just hope that you can find
someone that can sell and give

it to them, you are incredibly
vulnerable.

You need to understand every
single part of the business and

be able to.
Evaluate people's skills.

Understand enough to ask
curious, intelligent questions

to get to the root of it.
Understand how to do all those

things.
Legal, sales, marketing, product

distribution, partnerships,
finance, you name it.

Like HR, you have to.
It's not that you have to do

everything because that wouldn't
work.

And that's not the freedom
concept is not you're not going

to get there with that mindset,
but you need to understand all

of it.
It would be like trying to be

the head coach of a football
team and only understanding how

to play.
Quarterback like how?

Are you going to coach the other
52 people on the team?

How are you going to know
whether they're good or not?

How are you going to recruit
them?

That's the thing, especially
with first time entrepreneurs,

instead of doing the hard thing
and learning all the different

things about the football team
or the business, let's just call

it the business, they say, oh
I'm.

Either they have a thought.
Of like, I'm not good enough to

do that, I'm not smart enough
or.

A different thought of this.
Isn't worth my time and it's

like.
How do you expect?

To build a $10 million business
or a thriving business if you

don't have enough time to learn
how to sell your product.

I've discussed this with many
founders and sometimes I'm

getting on a discussions on
LinkedIn or when I'm when I'm

writing my post now that
sometimes people are saying, OK,

I'm I'm the distiller so I'm
making the product.

I'm the creative part of the
business.

I don't know how to sell, but
they expect a distributor or a

sales guy to do it for them.
And this is the issues.

At least your Co founder should
be able to do that.

And then you split
responsibilities because as you

said, it's not that everybody
should do everything, but if you

don't know, then you will just
be in your echo Chamber of your

other distilling friends saying
that's a great product and this

will smash the market and then
nobody will actually bring it

out the door.
Sometimes it's this circle of,

you know, when people do and I'm
one of them in a way like that,

you know, like that you like
what you're doing because you

you love the products and you
love the industry.

Then you need to get out of the
comfort zone to actually test it

and learn it so that then you
can fire yourself from that role

by hiring someone else.
Yeah, or know that you.

Are a distiller or a product
developer?

And not an entrepreneur like not
Aceo that.

Also works I think a.
Lot of people have been sold.

The idea that I have to be an.
Entrepreneur, and there are

many.
People that try to that.

Aren't and that person instead
of trying to?

Build this distillery business.
They're sitting in there making

liquor that no one wants to buy,
and they don't care.

To sell it because that's.
All they want to do, they could

have been the person making it
at whatever brand.

They've been super successful
working under a company that

knows how to sell it.
And has great.

Distribution.
They could do their.

R to make better stuff.
And have a ton of enjoyment

doing that and being the.
Lead product.

Person for a great brand.
I think there's some level of

self-awareness, too.
That can be really helpful a lot

of people.
Have been told they have to be

an entrepreneur.
When really they would be a

great CPOCTO or a top five or
top. 7 executive instead of a

entrepreneur of a business that
goes nowhere.

Do you think there's also
something about the narrative of

what we are reading?
If you take drinks industry,

media, it's all about this guy
sold for this much, this

celebrity bought it for this
much, and a big corporate bought

it for this much.
So there is this tendency to

think that the top 1% of who
makes it is the average rather

than the 1%.
By Stop consuming television

media in 2013 and have removed
almost all media consumption in

the past six months.
It's all conditioning.

And programming mostly about
materialism.

And like it is unhealthy, it's
not helpful for you and it's

they.
Place that right so they tell,

OK?
Look at this founder that built

this company for, you know, 15
years and then and then sold it

for hundreds of millions of
dollars.

Look at how.
Great they are.

Right, but they didn't tell you
that they raised so many

different funding rounds that
on.

Paper after taxes they.
Actually only made $3,000,000 in

their bank account.
It doesn't tell you that eight

years in they got divorced
because they didn't take.

Care of their other
relationships.

It doesn't tell you that they.
Had to go through this process

where they had to lay.
Off a bunch of people when they

didn't really need to because
their investors needed to show.

Profit for their PE.
Firm, They had to do all these

things that were ethically and
morally misaligned with them

because they had to do something
for their investors.

They didn't have control over
their business.

And you're over there looking
like, wow, this person made $100

million.
I wish I could have been them.

And you don't know the whole
fucking story because that's not

you.
Never.

Get the whole story.
That that is the main reason why

I don't consume any of the media
anymore, because it glorifies

all of the wrong things.
This is so true.

A lot of people ask me for
referencing case studies.

I said can you tell me about
successful brands and so on.

I said I don't want to do that
because I have Full disclosure

and I cannot do that because
I've got Ndas or it would be

stuff that I've read online or
people told me and it's their

stories.
It may be true or may not be

true.
Yeah, and I've just.

This is like a little.
Side note on sales or recruiting

about what I found is if you
ever find yourself convincing

someone to do something then you
should back away.

All the best people that.
Have become my business.

Partner, all the best.
People that have joined my

company as employees.
All the best.

Customers that we've had that
our longest standing customers.

All the best.
Friendships that I've had, you

don't have to convince someone
about why you're going to be

their good friend or why they
should join and be the employee

when you're convincing they're
not the right people that the

learning.
The effortless concept, right?

Like all the.
Best things that have come to

me, best customers and best
people and business partners

have all been effortless.
And then you go out and you put

a job rack out and you get 500
submissions and you interview a

bunch of people and you
eventually get to a person

thinking of this.
Is the right way to.

Recruit someone so I'm being
smart and diligent and you hire

someone that sucks.
And this goes back to what you

told me about the creating
demand before capturing demand.

Ultimately, when you are doing
it right, the right people come

to you.
And I'm totally with you with

that.
When people ask me like, can you

send me a presentation of why we
should work with you as like you

contacted me because there's so
much out there of me speaking

that everybody knows what I'm
talking about, what I'm thinking

and what I believe to be right
in the business.

So if you want to listen to 100
episode of my podcast, read all

my LinkedIn posts, you will
figure it out.

I don't have to make it
PowerPoint, you know, not to

play cool, but just to say if
you still haven't figured it out

then.
Probably not going to be a good

fit right now.
And then how much time do you

save and what are the other
things you can do with that

energy when you're not
convincing 10 people a week

about something they don't want
to be convinced about?

It's just like get out.
Of my way and my time, and I can

use my time for all these other
things.

That just becomes really
powerful.

Again, it's just balancing the
levels of freedom.

And trust me, there was times
where I spent 40 hours a week on

sales calls.
Every 30 minutes, new sales

call. 50 calls a week.
And forty of them are

unnecessary.
Talking to people that are just

going through the motions, not
interested in buying from you,

going to ask you for a deck and
a proposal and then never buy

anything.
Are they giving you good

insights about what to change?
Are they creating space where

you can do the right things for
your business?

Now does it?
Feel like you're being

productive.
Sure does, and you get caught in

the trap.
Of like if I just.

Do more, I'll get more. 100%,
Chris.

Thanks.
Thanks so much.

I'm aware of your time.
I want to wrap this up and leave

some space for you to let people
know how to find you and how can

they learn, especially from the
B to B revenue vitals that has

been so beneficial for my
learning journey.

So you can find out my podcast
online.

The pod is called B to B Revenue
Vitals.

Right now.
It'll be the third evolution in

my podcast series, so stay tuned
for that.

You can also find me on
Instagram and LinkedIn with the

handle Chris Walker 171 and
yeah, I look forward to and then

if you love this episode, you
have some questions, shoot me

Adm on the either of those
platforms and I would be happy

to chat.
Fantastic.

Thanks so much, Chris.
I really appreciate your time.

Thanks Chris, Great episode.
Thanks for listening to the

Mafare Drinks podcast if you
enjoyed it.

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