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Intersectional feminist conversations about doing work and life differently. Hosts Becky Mollenkamp and Faith Clarke talk with entrepreneurs, authors, and thinkers about capacity, care, bias, and burnout. We name the systems we're taught to ignore, and imagine what's possible when we stop performing and start being honest.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00)
Hello, welcome to Feminist Founders. I am joined today by Terry Givens, who we I we met through threads. I love threads. It's like I'm yeah, I'm meeting the most amazing people there. It's fantastic. And I'm really excited that you agreed to come on and chat with me. I love having these conversations with folks who are talking about important issues and finding ways to bring them to our audience who are obviously business owners and care about equity and social justice and
Terri Givens (00:08)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:27)
want to be a part of making a better world, but sometimes the how feels harder than the like the passion and drive. So Terry, you're the author of Radical Empathy and Reckoning, which is out. pulled them up. There it is. Radical Empathy. That was 2021 and Reckoning, which is from 2025, but the paperback is coming out this year. And
Terri Givens (00:40)
Yes. Yes.
Yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:47)
I think from what I understand, radical empathy is more of the why we need to use empathy and what that looks like and that sort of thing. But then reckoning is a little bit more to the brass tacks of like exactly how do we put all that into action. So between the two, it seems like a really great playbook for people. So thanks for being here.
Terri Givens (01:04)
Yes.
My pleasure.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:07)
And I want
to start obviously at radical empathy. And the phrase itself seems fairly clear to me. It's like unwavering empathy. Like even in the face of things that are challenging, how do I find and understand? Try to find those places of understanding with other humans. But tell me what I might be missing. If some for somebody who's like, I'm not quite, I like I can kind of feel radical empathy. I I think I get it, but how is that different than just empathy?
Terri Givens (01:33)
Well, you know, I thought a lot about this and this book comes out of my own personal experiences. So I would also say that radical empathy is part memoir. And as I was thinking through what was going on in the world, especially, you know, around twenty nineteen and so on, I I realized that okay, I can have empathy, but if I don't take action it it just doesn't mean anything. So, I I realized that we had to take another step and I decided that I was
you know, I was in the process of kind of doing some really deep dives into my own positionality and how I wanted to, you know, move forward in the world. And I realized that, you know, I've always been a person of action. So I believe that by combining empathy with action, that's how you get radical empathy. And so to me that radical it's funny 'cause some people I think, radical, I'm not a radical. So it's not about that. It's about
you know, I I have the six steps to radical empathy, which is the first is being vulnerable. So it's a very personal internal journey at the start and saying, because I realize that so many of us have bias and we don't acknowledge it because we're ashamed or, you know, I I you you can think of Brene Brown's work. but the interesting thing to me is that once I started taking that internal deep dive, I was it's very freeing because you say, wait a second,
Yes, I am a human being. I have bias. There I I you know, I have to work at it. And I I really think that's the critical point. So it's the first step is being vulnerable. The second step is being open to the experiences of others. You know, we ex especially as women and as business owners, we experience this all this time. Why are you starting a business? You know, things like that. And the the the reality is we have to be open to those kinds of experiences, you know, and say, you know
I want to instead of saying why are you doing this, say, that's really interesting. I want to hear more about what you're doing and things like that. So being open to other people's experiences and understanding that your worldview is not the end all be all. And then the next step is, you know, basically you actually sorry, I missed a step because it's for the first two steps are being wish being vulnerable. The second step is really getting
to know who you are, being grounded in who you are, and then being open to the experiences of others. Then the the most important step is practicing empathy, but also taking action. So steps four and five, practicing empathy, taking action. And we have to practice empathy every day.
I don't just because I wrote a book called Radical Empathy doesn't mean I'm always good about having empathy. You know, I can look at the latest, you know, World Cup game. I was really rooting for England, but I'm gonna try to have empathy for those Argentinian fans who are now happy. And then finally Well, let's not get into that then. but yeah, so practicing empathy, taking action and then the final step is creating change and building trust. Right. So those things are
Becky Mollenkamp (04:17)
You're doing better than I am around that one.
Terri Givens (04:30)
Something anybody can do.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:31)
Well, let's start at the beginning that then, because when you talk about the internal part first, and I think it's great when we do work that starts here and then works outward, you talk about internalized oppression. And I think one of the things that can happen is and I can obviously I can only take my lived experience. So one area of oppression is as a woman, and just those things that, you know, being socialized as a woman and all of the issues that can come up around that. And it's easy for me to quickly go to
Terri Givens (04:36)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:57)
Men shouldn't be this way. Men need to change. The systems that harm me need to change. But and and I did that for a long time until I got to the place of doing the work of understanding I have taken on some of these beliefs and how are they showing up and how I am interacting with other women. The judgment that I would have, the feelings I would have about other women, the things I would say, the ways, the expectations I would place on other women. And doing that work is so it's so overlooked, I think, because it's
Way harder. It's a lot easier to just point fingers than it is to have to say, where am I taking this on? So when you talk about that internalized oppression, how did you start to do that work? And how do you suggest for others to do it? Because it can be really hard to get go there and to even just to even unearth it.
Terri Givens (05:24)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Yes.
Yeah. No, it's extremely difficult at times because, you know, the where I saw it was in my own family, right? And the fact that, you know, I I kind of didn't understand why my parents had decided I grew up in Spokane, Washington, right? My mom is from Louisiana, my dad is from Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh, and you know, my dad was in the military and we we landed in Spokane, Washington. And Spokane a especially in nineteen sixty four when I was born
is a place that is less than one percent black. And you know, for so, you know, we were fine growing up and so I mean, I get into all that, but the the area where I wanted to really dive in was understanding my parents and the choices they made and how that then impacted me. And I have to give a shout out to Isabel Wilkerson's book, The Warmth of Other Sons, because that book was life changing for me in so many different ways. But it gave me a better understanding of
their motivations, but also they were in many ways anti-black because they would didn't want us to hang out with a lot of other black kids. And it was a class issue, right? And not that we were wealthy or anything. We were very much slower middle class. I'm the youngest of seven, so there was a lot of us were I was raised Catholic. sometimes I I say I would rather I should write another memoir that talks about growing
a black and Catholic in Spokane, Washington, but but I realized that I had internalized, you know, this bias and that I often felt uncomfortable around other black people. And it took a while for me to really dive in and say, okay, where is this coming from? You know, why do you have these feelings? And then how do I address them in a a way? And and you know, I call my twenties my years of cognitive dissonance because
People try to put you in a box. They see a black woman in front of them and they say, well, you must be X, Y, and Z. Well, you talk a certain way, you you act a certain way, you like a certain kind of music. And, you know, all these different things. And so I had to really work past that. And so I'd already done a lot of the work. It's just I it was going back and acknowledging what that work was about. And you know, by the time I got into you know, late twenties, I I feel like I was much more accepting of myself. So that's why I say you have to be grounded in who you are, because
You have to accept okay, I accept that this is the way I was raised, but that doesn't mean I have to live my life the rest of that the rest of my life that way. I can change that. I can say I am going to recognize it, acknowledge it, and then move on and do better, right? It's so important that we you know, think about how do we change those patterns, how do we try to be better? And and that's on the individual.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:16)
Yeah. So important. and thank you for sharing some of your personal journey in that because I think if you can get quiet and really ask yourself those questions, like where did I I think some
And I'd love to hear what questions maybe help you in that journey, but I think things like where did I learn this? Who benefits from me thinking this way? Those can be some of the things that help to unpack some of that. But were there other things like that that help were helpful for you or that people might use to do some of that work of of excavating some of that internalized oppression?
Terri Givens (08:45)
Well, yeah, being the youngest of seven, I have all these siblings. I have four sisters, two brothers. so I I I actually did talk a lot with my siblings 'cause partly because they're older than me and they were around when all of this, you know, history for me was happening. and also to kind of get their perspective on, you know, the decisions that were made growing up and so on. But I've had mentors, you know, throughout my life and I I
really appreciate the friends and and you know the colleagues who have been able to have these conversations with me that helped me too. Yeah, I have one friend in particular who also who had a similar family and so on. And we had long conversations about what it was like growing up black, young and b you know in in the sixties, seventies, eighties, and kind of the different influences and how our parents chose to raise us and things like that. So
I think yeah, there were were lots of friends who I reached out to in the process of working through these ideas. And, you know, social media was yet another place. I have a you know, especially with my book Reckoning, I have a friend Greg Sattell who we would have conversations about, you know, related to how you create change and and so on. So there have been lots of folks along the way, but you know, I at some point we should come back to this issue of mentoring 'cause I think it's an important one.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:03)
Yeah, especially in the business space. I think it's really valuable. Well, before we do then, because one of the next parts of that journey, you talk about vulnerability, which for a lot of people is deeply challenging, particularly in workspaces, where I think, again, going back to some of our certainly around gender, but probably there's also race dynamics in here where we are very conditioned to check our feelings at the door and that we have to show up very stoic and not let things bother us, right? We don't want to let them see us sweat, all of that.
And you know, women are particularly, I think, conditioned around not being not being perceived as emotional in the workspace. So when you talk about vulnerability, I think that can scare people. And obviously, vulnerability does not have to mean crying. It does not have to mean all of those things. It means being really honest. But there's also the fear of how will that be received? Am I safe to do that? So, what do you say to people and especially for people who are creating safe or safer spaces for vulnerability in the workspace?
Terri Givens (10:39)
Uh-huh.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:00)
How do you actually do that when you know people are coming into the room with all that armor on in the work setting?
Terri Givens (11:08)
Yeah, and I think there are people for who can't be vulnerable, right? And and and but depending on how you define it. So one of the things I say, first of all, is it's not I'm not asking you to be vulnerable with everybody. It's being vulnerable, first of all, with yourself. And that's the most important component of vulnerabilities, being vulnerable with yourself first. And then, you know, you have to gauge how does vulnerability work into my day to day or interactions with people.
So there are some people, yes, you can be vulnerable with. It could be a friend or or colleague who you have somebody you work with who you have that level of comfort. But if you're like talking to a group of employees, you know, the thing is you have to be very careful about you know how you're vulnerable, right? And so you you don't want to just sp spew everything, right? You can go overboard with vulnerability. it's more so that's why I think really focus in on being vulnerable with yourself and
That then guides you in how to have those interactions. So one reason why I think vulnerability is important in the workplace is that we are often afraid to admit mistakes. and there's have been there's so many different, and I you know, I talk about this in the book. So there's lots of different folks who have talked about the importance of being able to admit mistakes and then correct them, right? Because I think one of the biggest frustrations for me when I'm working with people is when they won't admit a mistake and so you can't fix it.
You know, and so it's really important that we are able to fix things in a way that allows us to move forward. And I think a lot of times in business we we keep going down the same path and you know, we we don't try to admit that we made a mistake or that we need to fix something. And so come sometimes that's where vulnerability comes in. So it's not necessarily personal vulnerability. It's not saying, I you know, I had a horrible day. It's more like, we we need to do something different here.
We need to admit that this isn't working.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:03)
Yeah. And while we're at this place of vulnerability and safety, I just something that I've been coming to lately, and I'm very curious just to get your feedback or your take on this, since you talk a lot about creating safer spaces, brave spaces or whatever you to call them, is that I am getting to a place of where I feel like as somebody who creates a lot of community spaces, that as a white woman, I can I don't think I can even aspire to creating a safe space for black women. That my goal is just
create safer spaces. And I think for me, that removing of some ideal that I have to get to this place of sa creating safety and understanding that I probably can't create safety for people and not just black women, a lot of other folks who have different identities than I hold, that that actually feels
Terri Givens (13:34)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:50)
It feels really good in a in releasing myself from that as a goal because that's like it sort of feels like the white supremacist ideals around perfectionism and how those can feel they're so restraining in a way, and I think by design, right, to keep us from even taking action. So just I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.
Terri Givens (14:04)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I
you know, I feel like I I have had some conversations about this recently with some students who felt they, you know, needed a safe space. This is and this has been a debate in higher education. How do you create safe spaces for students? And you cannot create a perfectly safe space, right? People are people. And even somebody you feel very close to might say something hurtful, you know, either unknowingly or or for whatever reason. So no, I I it's so we
We can create I'd prefer to say brave spaces where people feel comfortable saying what they want to say. And you know, I and this is only something I've really been thinking deeply about in the last few months as as you know, we've seen these terrible things happening in the world. And you know, I I've had stu had a student ask me, well, we need I I need a safe space. I'm like, Well, what does that mean to you to have a safe space?
And you know, does it mean we have police patrolling or or we somehow, you know, are doing some I mean, you don't want that either. So there there we have to think more into I think in terms of brave spaces where people feel comfortable talking about what they are concerned about. And and you know, I also think in different ways about how can we create access for people to share things anonymously or how do we create situations where people
who we who feel safe with each other can come together and and have those conversations. So it's it's really very dependent on the situation. and so I think we have to have be very conscious of what we're talking about when we mean a safe space. And I really appreciate your approach to it because you know it's hard to create a space where people everybody is going to feel comfortable.
But I don't think it's as hard to create a space where you know, s people who feel comfortable can be brave and speak up. And then that actually can create a braver space because as you know, there's you know, I talk about this you know, bystander effect. If if somebody is willing to speak up and you see that they do not get jumped all over, then you're gonna be more likely to speak up. So that's the kind of space I think we can create.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:15)
Well, my business partner and feminist founders, Faith Clark, who couldn't be here because she's relocated back to Jamaica and she's it very deep in her move at the moment. I'm sure she would have loved to have had this conversation. But she talks a lot about the co-creation of agreements in spaces and that as you're saying, they're so dependent, right? So each new space, the community, what it really looks like to create because she talks a lot about belonging, to create belonging is everyone in this particular room in this moment, let's
to an agreement of what is it, what are we needing in this moment to create that feeling of safety or feeling safer or whatever it is. And like what's our goal here, right? Because the goal to say like we're all going to get naked in this room, that's a very different level of needing to create safety in agreements than to say we're all going to share like our concerns about the future of this company. Those are two different situations, right? And and require very different levels of safety. So it's that agreement amongst the people in the room to co-create that. Because like you said,
Terri Givens (16:53)
Mm-hmm. Great.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:13)
For a group of white women, police in the room might feel real safe. For a group of black women or black men, that might feel very different. So I I love that. And that that's also where I think that empathy comes in, right? And that understanding of that. So for me in this room, a bunch of police officers might make me feel safe. Why is it that for Terry, maybe that isn't the case? Like that it that questioning, the curiosity.
Terri Givens (17:24)
Mm-hmm. That's right.
Right. Well, so it wouldn't be feel safe for me because those police are looking at me and differently than they're looking at you. Right. So this is the problem is that the and I've actually worked with the police and here I'm s sitting in Menlo Park, California right now. And I've I've worked with the police here and
Becky Mollenkamp (17:52)
I saw an interview you
did about that and you even said we have to remember police are people too. And I was like, that's interesting because the the A CAB thing can get real easy to sort of be like, No. So yeah.
Terri Givens (17:56)
Yes. Yes.
Yes, they
they are, but but you know, we n also know that police tend to you know, see people they c they classify people by race, you know. We have you know we can document over and over and over again. and so I have to be extra careful and you know, my my boys have to be extra careful that we don't do anything that's going to cause them to, you know, pull out their weapons, you know, things like that. So there's there's this this basic
problem that of racial profiling. and there's all but there's also, you know, the the distrust that has developed. And that's one of the things I I tried to focus on when I was working with the police is how do we build trust in this kind of an environment. And a lot of it has to do with relationship, right? And so if you know we talk a lot about pol community policing and and I know there are folks out there who think we just need to abolish the police, you know, that's a you know didn't go very far
and you know, however you feel about it. But we do have to humanize each other and make sure that the people we are putting in those positions are people who are thoughtful and can humanize people and you know, their first instinct isn't to just, you know, grab a weapon when they see somebody who looks you know different than they do. And it you know, it's not just for black people. It's you know, we we're seeing you know, all kinds of groups that are
excuse me, being profiled in different ways. And so, you know, w living up in Canada part-time, I see huge problems for the o Asian community there. And so we have to remember that this is a broader issue and that it's something that we all need to be thinking about in ways that allow us to say we need to reform the police in a way that they are serving the entire community, not just one part of the community.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:51)
Yeah, I mean, you
know, obviously in the age of ice and you write a lot about immigration, there's a whole space there as well. And this it brings me to something I really wanted to get to as well, because when we talk about empathy, and part of what you've said is like, it's that can I bridge gaps? Can I find relationships? Can I try to find understanding with others? And I think a lot of people think that's well and good. And yes, I I think of myself as an empathetic person.
How though do you deal with when you are dealing with people? And this can happen in a workplace. This can happen when you are a business owner and, you know, making decisions about vendors you're gonna use or collaborations you're gonna have or clients you will or won't work with. How do you bring that when it comes to somebody whose beliefs are not only opposed to yours, because that, you know, we can disagree about which is the best hopping of peat for pizza. That's one thing. But when it's
Terri Givens (20:40)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:41)
your beliefs are questioning my right to exist or about taking away my rights or the rights of people I love, those sorts of things. How do you bring empathy into those situations?
Terri Givens (20:53)
So the first step is something I really have gleaned into because and again I give credit to my friend Greg Sattell for this is empathy is not absolution. And just because we have empathy, and actually it's it's interesting because you know you can use empathy as a tool to to actually even figure out who are the people I want to interact with versus not. So I I call it strategic empathy. And if I put myself in a the position of this person and
you know, think about how they should be interacting with me and I don't like the way they're interacting with me. And I can say, No, I don't want to work with this people. or I can, you know, figure out how can I work with this person in a way that is, you know, allows me to maintain my integrity. And so there's there are a lot of people who I have just said, No, I I can't work with you and unless you are willing to
you know, change the way you're acting or your beliefs, then those that just does not work for me. and, you know, even in families, this can happen. And so I I do think our you know, a lot, yes. So I think our integrity is important, but also you do not want to reify bad behavior behavior. You know, so you don't want to say, well, you know, I'm just gonna work with this person anyway. Just y no, that's not so we we do have to have some judgment here.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:57)
A lot.
Terri Givens (22:15)
and actually by having empathy and saying, Okay, well let me try to figure out where is this person coming from. They've been getting a lot of misinformation or disinformation. They've been watching Fox News too much, whatever it may be. And okay, so now I can see where that person is coming from, but I still don't want to work with that person. Now there may be situations where you have to work with somebody like that, and that's where you have to
Unfortunately, sometimes just say, Okay, you know, I have to do this, but it's not our ongoing way of doing things. and so I think part of the problem, and I see this too often, is like, well, we have to work with these people even though i yes it I was gonna say, you like in the Democratic Party, it's like, well we have to have bipartisanship. It's like, no, not always. especially if things are happening that are harmful.
we don't want to cause more harm. And that's kind of what it boils down to. It is, you know, is this going to cause more harm? And so it it trust me, it it's complicated, it's difficult at times, you know, relationships are difficult. And so again, it's I don't want to pretend like I have some magic bullet for how we deal with these things. it's hard for me too. That's all I can say.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:13)
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think when people hear the term forget people, me. When I hear the term radical empathy, I think it sounds like this aspirational, and maybe it's the word radical, right? That makes us feel like it's this aspirational level of empathy where it means I have to find empathy for all people. And it sounds like you tr you can try. And also that doesn't necessarily have to change your ultimate decisions about whether you engage with these people. But does that also then for you affect
Terri Givens (23:35)
Mm-hmm.
That's right.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:53)
Because you mentioned like using Argentina as a small example of like the World Cup. I don't want to go too deep either into that either. But like where it's really easy to not to then say, okay, maybe I disagree with how things happened, mm, behaviors, whatever. But also maybe the empathy is, but I know they're really trying hard to win and the things we do for that. Can I then is is part of what the radical empathy is in those places of disagreement or the people where you say, I s
I for my own integrity, my own health, I have to end this relationship here. Is it then also about the part about vilifying to not take that additional step? Cause that's what we see so much of right now in this really divisive space. And listen, I'm as guilty as the next person, so I'm not high and mighty here at all. I know that it's easy for me sometimes to just get a little like flippant and rude and whatever. That's the part though that I think is maybe what you're talking to is like.
Terri Givens (24:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:46)
Can we stop at the part where we say, I just don't have to have you in my life? Period.
Terri Givens (24:50)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. That to me is is is important. And I I've even you you're making me think about kind of my own interactions around this. And and you know, basically I will say, Well, I want England to to be Argentina. Well, they didn't. Okay, well, I'm gonna watch the game on Saturday and you know, we'll see if I decide to watch thick theme on Sunday. You know, so there's ways to do things without raising the temperature. and
you you know, trust me, I I've s I've been to Argentina, I've studied some of the history. It's a lot of it's very ugly, unfortunately, but so is the history of the US and so is the history in England. So I mean, I I I worry that we're we're putting things out of context in oftentimes in these situations. And that's another thing I think that we have to consider is that context matters. So I talk about mental health and and my mother and and you know the struggles we had with her.
And, you know, it could it would be very easy for me to vilify my mother and say, you know, she was abusive and things like that. But on the other hand, I can have some compassion for her by understanding that she grew up during the in the you know, in Louisiana during the Jim Crow era that she was born in nineteen thirty. You know, you had the the depression, Jim Crow, World War Two, all these things, you know, that she had to live through. And I can have some compassion for her, right? And say, well
She was this way because of what she experienced in her life. And I it doesn't mean I like what she did. but it means that I'm willing to step back and say there were reasons behind that. and so yes, exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:22)
That said, empathy, not absolution. Yeah.
Yeah. And you don't have to go to the extra step of then necessarily vilifying her. It can just be that. A lot of this is easier said than done, but this is why we need the book, right? To keep reading it and remind ourselves. Well, let's move into the last part of what I want to talk about, which is probably the meat of things, which is really where I think you're coming at now with reckoning, which is around action. Because I've seen I've watched several interviews with you in preparation for this, and you talk a lot about how.
Terri Givens (26:32)
Exactly. Yeah. Yes. That's right. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:50)
you think that both empathy and leadership are not just skills, it's not just feelings, it's not like a state of being. These are about their actions, they're a practice. And so it's not just that you show up saying you're a a a leader or you show up saying you have empathy. It's we have to see it in action. But often that's it feels a little nebulous. Like what does it actually look like? And I know one of the things you talk about is safer spaces. We've covered that.
Terri Givens (27:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:17)
quite well, I think. But what are some of the other things that as business owners in particular that are like the actions we should be thinking about where we really can examine, am I bringing empathy? Am I bringing that form of empathetic leadership into these situations?
Terri Givens (27:32)
Right. And and it crosses a pot a c it goes across different aspects of being a leader because there's the the part of it so I'll come at it as a a business person myself. I've I'm always very entrepreneurial, even though I have a job as a professor, I'm always got something going. and I I for actually I left academic for three years to be to run my own business. and one of the things that's I found
both as somebody who has been managed and somebody who manages people, is to be very attuned to what the needs are of the people who are working for you. And so that's what where empathy comes in. So I need to understand, you know, how do I need to create a functional workplace, especially I was you know, pre-COVID I was doing things remotely. and so in this remote situation, how do I
interact with these people on a regular basis. And I'm doing this right now. I have I'm working with five RAs this summer and I have to make sure that I'm checking in, that I'm giving them different opportunities to interact with me. We created a WhatsApp group so that they can contact me anytime and I don't have to respond right away, but you know, they know they can get in touch with me and not struggle through something and feel like they're spinning their wheels. So there's different
ways to approach the workspace. There's different ways to approach how you recruit people. And actually, you know, I spend a lot of time with my my consulting clients talking about how are you recruiting people into these positions. And are you reaching out beyond the normal, you know, my here's my friends list and I'm going to, you know, hire one of my friends or I'm going to hire somebody who went to school with me. Or, you know, and I've ex you I've been in situations where this is how people were are doing their hires. And you have to expand beyond
what you're comfortable with. So part of it is getting outside of your comfort zone. So much of this whole thing around radical empathy with the vulnerability, with the, you know, being open to the experiences of others is being willing to get outside your comfort zone and say, well, instead of just talking to this group of people, I'm gonna reach out to this group of people and say, Hey, you know, I'm looking for somebody who can do X, Y, and Z. it's you know, I I did this when I went to McGill. So I first
started working in Canada five years ago at McGill University and they asked me to come in and help them with their program where they were doing the strict strategy to address anti black racism, which meant hiring part of it was hiring more black faculty. And I said, okay, I would talk to a department chair and say, okay, when you go to your annual meeting, you know, political scientists, you know, sociologists, we all have our annual meetings. Who are you talking to when you go to those meetings?
You know, and and but then again you have to be careful. Don't just scrab a black person and say, Hey, we have a job. You know.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:16)
Well, before you
go further, can I just interject really quickly? Cause that's with the with a the you know white privilege perspective, I think, and what I hear often inside of rooms where there's white folks who care deeply, right? These are people who really care. Like the same people I think you're talking about, like we want to see more diversity on our campus or in our office or in our offices, or you know, like I also run the podcast collective. I want more diverse people on my show.
Terri Givens (30:20)
sure, please.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:41)
And then when you talk to them about where they're getting guests or where they're fired, it's like who's coming to me? And they'll say, like, well, they don't they don't want to come, they don't come to me, right? And it's like whether you need to go out and reach out to more folks, right? But the thing that I well, right, but what I hear people saying, and I this used to be a I get it. Here's my empathy. I get it because I used to, in the beginning of my journey, have a similar feeling of I don't want to engage in tokenism. I don't want to seem performative, right? And I had to get some of
Terri Givens (30:52)
Which is exactly what you did.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:09)
The comfort zone. I had to get outside of that fear and just say, if I'm truly committed to this and my actions have to reflect it. But what do you like, what do you say for people? Because I I know I can hear my old version of myself and people I still hear from with that feeling of like, but I don't want to just be engaging in tokenism and I don't want to come off as performative or whatever. What do you say to folks like that when they're feeling the
Terri Givens (31:28)
Yeah, well
I think part of it is not just grabbing that first black person you see. Part of it is like I said, building relationships. So instead of, you know, when you go to your annual meeting just grabbing random people, you go to somebody you know who's a a well known scholar who like, you know, I always direct people when they ask me, how do I hire more black grad students or you know, whatever. I know who in the field who
the people are who are working with black students. And so I say, talk to this person, talk to this person. And we start to so you have to create networks. And networking is so critical in in through all of this. And you know, I I I'm excited to to join your network and and you know start reaching out to beyond even my own, you know, networks of people who are a lot of ours are in higher ed or in you know, education. but I'm also an entrepreneur and I I've
I'm very unusual in higher ed in that I I do reach out. I've worked a lot with people in the ed tech sector and things like that. So part of it is getting outside your normal networks and starting to reach out and talk you know, just you have those convers have conversations first. Don't just jump in and say, we have a job opening. No, hey, you're I s I haven't seen you before at this conference. So you know, where you you know, you look at their name tag and see, you know, where they're from and
what's your research on and you have a conversation before you just jump in and you know I mean I have so many stories of of when I was a grad student and just starting out as a professor, you know, of people just making assumptions based on what I look like and and and not just white people, black people too. And so we have to be careful ask questions, right? Be curious. You know, y this is how you get to know people but and not just jump into tokenism.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:17)
Yeah, and and part of my feeling is like it's weird when you make it weird. Like if you're genuinely interested in meeting people and the having real relationship with other humans, it's only weird if you make it weird. You know, if it and like you said, just showing up and being like, hey, come come get this job, apply for it. I don't know thing about you, but like come up. That's just weird whether the person was white, black, you know, whatever, tall, short. It doesn't like it's just that's weird.
Terri Givens (33:43)
Mm-hmm,
Becky Mollenkamp (33:44)
So just show up like a human and and engage
Terri Givens (33:45)
mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:47)
like you would in relationship, but be intentional. Like there is we have to be really intentional and stri strategic, not in that makes it sound intentionality, I think is the key. It's intentional in who we're reaching out to. and I just think that's so valuable. So thank you for bringing that up.
Terri Givens (34:03)
it all ties into what I was saying, which is that you you know, I I end up advising a lot of folks around this whole issue of how you hire and and how you you know, pull people into ev you know s creating a sense of belonging, And and this is a really hard one because you know, I have had experiences in higher ed where I felt like, you know, I I was kind of marginalized or
it's hard when you're c you know coming into an environment where people have been working together for a long time or people are feeling like you're the new kid on the block and they don't know how to interact with you and and things like that. And so that's why I I'm so glad you mentioned the word intentionality because we do have to be you know, when I was working at McGill with this whole you know hiring black faculty, it wasn't just hiring them.
And actually I always tell people the high that the retention process starts even before you hire the person. How are you structuring things so that this person feels welcome, that they belong, that they have the opportunity to, you know, get ahead, you know, all these different things. I I t call it the platinum rule. You know, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, but
Go beyond that. Do unto others as they want done unto them. And you have to find out what how they want to be dealt with. You know, you you have to ask questions. You have to what's gonna make you feel more comfortable in this workspace? You know, what how can we do you need me to you and I and sometimes even when they tell you, they th first of all they may not know, I've run into that. Second, they may not understand exactly what they need. So it's really hard sometimes to find that happy medium of this is what I need, but
Actually no, I need to you so experience, right, is important and not assuming, okay, I did this and I'm done. It's like no, it's an ongoing thing of saying, we tried this, it didn't work, so so how can we fix it? Again, it's it's iterations and and intentionality and saying, I'm not just gonna do this and then stop.
It's it's it's a constant process, especially with this new generation of of young people coming into the workforce. You know, they're used to things being much more malleable and and you know you so we have to find ways to work with them. And I you know, I'm dealing with this in classroom, you know. So it's it's something that we have to be willing to you know, I I I really changed the way I teach over the the last few years.
because of what I'm seeing amongst even with my own kids. I have a twenty two year old and a twenty five year old and I they help really inform my approach to how I create space for my students.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:37)
Yeah. And to be clear, empathy goes beyond talking around issues of race. It's also around issues of age in the workspace and ability and so many things. And it's about that curiosity, like you said, because going back to the police reference, if I make assumptions about what makes you feel sense a sense of belonging in the workspace, then without that lived experience, I may then create a space where actually does the exact opposite of what my intention was, because I didn't get curious. I didn't
And and and empathy to me, curiosity is such a key component. I'm assuming you probably feel the same way, right? Because right, because how can I begin to understand your experience if I don't ask about it, right? If it's different than my own, I have to ask about it to understand it. Okay, the last thing, because I wouldn't want to keep you all day. But you talk a lot about history as well. I'm really excited because I ordered your book that's about the history of the roots of racism in America. I can't wait to read that. and you talk about learning from history.
Terri Givens (37:09)
Yes. one hundred percent.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:32)
Which I mean, we are in a critical point in Americ US history, I think, where learning about history is really important to understand where we're at and where things the different paths things can go on. It can also be overwhelming and depressing to be in the current moment or to even look at the history because we know there is a path that could be really not great. I heard you reference Octavia Butler in an interview, and I all like I love the fact that her work helps us see that.
There are multiple. Yeah, right. There's a future that doesn't it when we look collectively, when we work collectively and think collectively, it can look very different. But when you look back on history, and some of these key points of change and inflection, especially more recent history and like the industrial age, what role do you see business being able to play in creating the future we want? Because I think.
Terri Givens (37:59)
Feature.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:22)
So many of us think about these things. We go to the marches, we do the protests, we think about these things in our personal lives, but then we step into our office as a business owner and aren't always thinking about how can I use this business as a tool for the change I want to see in the world? Not just my personal life and those actions, but my business as a tool. So I'm just wondering if there's something to be learned from history about what business can do to help be a part of change.
Terri Givens (38:43)
Yeah.
One hundred percent. Yeah. Business, it's funny because we tend to think of business in chunks, you know, there's the big conglomerates and then there's the small business, but there's everything in between. And we all have a role to play. You know, when I I'm actually in the process of starting a nonprofit because one of the things I'm really passionate about is youth sports and college access and things are changing dramatically.
on all these fronts. And if you've been taught here, you know, everybody's talking about the whole youth soccer thing and how the US is not set up the way Europe is and all of this. And and so, you know, and and I've been thinking about this for a long time because I worked for many years with college access programs. But I bring this up because I'm starting a business that is going to help deal with that issue by educating young people and parents, you know
catching them in seventh grade and and you know before they get to high school and helping them understand what the changes are so that they can actually do what they need to do in high school to get to college, not maybe not focus, you know, solely on sports, but how the importance of academics. So there's there's the direct impact that a business can have, you know, whether it's a nonprofit, for profit, whatever.
But I think business people have to look at the way you it's funny because actually I think business plays a huge role right now when we're seeing the federal government abandoning its its support for women and and L the LGBTQ plus community and and you know, just about everybody except white men, right? and so where business can step in and say, Well, you know, I'm a private business. I can hire women, I can hire people of color, you know, I can g get a visa for this person, you know, whatever.
And there's all these different ways that business in the hi in historically has stepped up. And you know, there there's story after story of a business that said, No, we're going to, you know, integrate our our workspace. We're going to hire women, we're going to give, you know, education to you know those who we think have potential. All these different things that that businesses can do. It's it's about having, you know, you
having your values show up in the way you conduct business. And you know, it and it doesn't mean that we're you know each individual is responsible for changing the world. Each individual is responsible for their own little area. And actually I believe it was Timothy Schneider who posted on social media the other day that, you know, it's what you do in your little space ripples out into the rest of the world. And the way you function in the world
is going to be a model because we know, I mean, you know, I have tons and tons of data, both of these books, about how businesses that support women that are diverse do so much better, you know, financially. And so there's, you know, there's just the basic economic reasons for doing it, as well as the values based reasons for doing it. And there are lots of you know, one of my favorite businesses out there is Penzie Spice. because they
have all of these, you know, they they're constantly out there, you know, talking about social justice and all these different things. And so I I purposely go to Penzi's Spice to to get my spices because I I I really appreciate how they're out there, you know, not just talking the talk, but walking the walk. So yeah, there's that that's there's lots of examples of businesses. And I I I trust me, one of my they have several chapters in my book Reckoning where I talk about how businesses, you know, can can create change.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:10)
Yeah, so definitely get the book. The paperback's coming out soon, but hard the hardback, is that what we call them? I guess so. And the Kindle and ebook are already available. And I saw that you have it's like 50% off if you order it. So go to your website. I'll put the link in. I got 50% off the books I ordered today. I was very excited about that. I mean, I who doesn't love a deal. I don't I hope you still get paid okay for those, but yeah, so check those out. thank you so much for this.
Terri Givens (42:16)
Yes.
It is.
Yes.
I do, don't worry. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:37)
For for the people who are listening, most especially those folks who are like, I'm a business of one, I'm not doing hiring. Don't forget you're still hiring vendors, you're still hiring clients. Like clients is a two-way street. but or who are thinking like, I hide I it's a small little, what can I do? Just what would you want, what do you want to leave them with when they when you think about radical empathy and action? What do you want those people to be thinking about this weekend or maybe doing the in the weeks ahead?
Terri Givens (43:05)
So
each chapter of both of these books has actions you can take. But I would say this weekend, when you're interacting with people, like you know, one of the easiest ways for me to practice empathy, I travel a lot. So I'll get on the plane and I'll just say thank you to the the flight attendants because I know their job is can be really crappy. or if I I do get frustrated, I try to you know, take a step back. Or if I'm standing in a long line, you know
What if people always tell me they notice I always have this sense of calm about me and it's like it's because I think about if I was a person, you know, who has to talk to the the person who's been on hold for an hour or I have to you know and and it's not you know, it's not their fault that you know the the person you are talking to generally is not the one who created the awful conditions, right? and so try to have some empathy for people you see, especially if you are in a frustrating situation and
you know, you wanna lash out, t take a step back and and think about why is this situation happening and who is really responsible and maybe I shouldn't lash out at this person in front of me 'cause it's not their fault.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:14)
Yeah. And I think love what you said earlier too of like, how do I want to act in integrity in this moment? Like I'm gonna really try to sit with that, most especially on social media, because that's where it's really easy for us keyboard warriors with our anonymity almost to be like, you're a so-and-so. And it's like, is that really how I want to show up in my integrity? So thank you for that, Terry. Thank you for this conversation. Everybody, make sure you check out your books. the two I think that are most applicable here are radical empathy and reckoning.
and I will definitely link to them in the show notes of the description everywhere. So you can go and find them. And again, they're fifty percent off right now. So you might as well grab them, right? Thank you, Terry. I really appreciate you.
Terri Givens (44:50)
Yes.
Yes, thank you. This is really fun.