Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Whether you realize it or not, you’re already selling. Every pitch, negotiation, and tough conversation is sales in disguise. Entrepreneur-turned-educator Eric Janssen takes you inside the minds of elite performers across disciplines to reveal how sales principles drive extraordinary results, even for people who've never held a "sales" role. From surgeons to artists to startup founders, one thing's for sure: You'll never see sales the same way again. Sales Reframed is produced in partnership with Ivey Executive Education.
Follow Eric (@ewrjanssen) on LinkedIn or on Instagram.
Follow Ivey Executive Education (@iveyexeced) on LinkedIn or on Instagram.
STUDENT: I'm very
scared of heights.
But I was thinking
about it the other day.
What am I going to not do it?
Obviously, I'm going to do it.
Actually, she said the 1,
2, 3, and then you jump.
That's when it was a bit
of a reality check for me.
But I'm excited.
I'm excited.
I wouldn't lie and
say I'm not nervous.
But it'll be fun.
For a classroom
experience, I think
it's like once in a lifetime.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ERIC JANSSEN: I'm Eric
Janssen, an entrepreneur
turned sales professor.
And I have a simple
mission, to change the way
people think about sales.
And believe it or not,
what you just heard
was from one of my classes.
Those were my students getting
ready to board a plane,
fly 10,000 feet in the
air, and then jump.
If you're wondering why.
Well, stick around.
Welcome to the first episode of
Sales Reframed, podcast powered
by the Ivey Business School.
It's a show where
I bring together
diverse voices, big ideas,
and cutting-edge research
to help you see sales
in a whole new way.
Because sales is a life skill.
And sometimes that's something
you can't learn in a classroom.
We're here to do skydiving.
It's the first time
I've ever done this.
And I'm extremely excited,
but also very, very scared.
Let's go, let's go,
let's get ready.
Let's go.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
So you're probably wondering
what jumping out of an airplane
has to do with sales.
Well, most people think sales
is about persuasion, smooth
talking, closing techniques.
I think sales is about
something completely different.
For me, sales is about will.
Will is the ability to
hear no and keep going.
It's feeling fear and
still doing the thing.
It's getting knocked down
and standing back up.
And will is what we're talking
about in the first episode
of the show.
To help us through it, we're
going to hear from a survivor
winner, an extreme
ultramarathon runner,
and a famous clinical
psychologist and author who
studies your 20s.
And of course, a bunch
of college students
who are about to do the scariest
thing they've ever done.
STUDENT: I'm really
scared of heights.
So it's going to be
really interesting.
ERIC JANSSEN: Have
you done any editing
to conquer your fear
of heights in the fens?
STUDENT: Other than
some roller coasters
and hiking, not too much.
But still I'll be shaking in my
boots on the edge of a cliff,
looking down, just
that queasy feeling.
ERIC JANSSEN: When I
first started teaching,
I wanted to offer the
sales class that I wish
I'd had when I was in school.
That meant starting with
one simple question.
What makes great
salespeople truly great?
Well, I did a ton of research.
I looked at all the
studies I could find.
I interviewed experts.
I partnered with academics.
And in the end, I think
I found the answer.
It turns out there are four
elements to a great salesperson.
Will, skill, strategy, and luck.
And while each of those
elements are valuable,
will was by far the
number one element
that appeared at
the top of the list.
So, yeah, skydiving might
seem like an extreme way
to teach a class about
the value of will.
But here's the thing.
There's actually science
behind why this works.
A study from Mark
Seery at the University
of Buffalo and his colleagues
looked at adversity.
What they found was
really interesting.
People who'd faced some previous
adversity in their lives
handled new challenges better
than those who'd faced none.
Their research actually
proves that what doesn't
kill you makes you stronger.
And just like a muscle, the
more you work on your will,
the stronger it gets.
So yeah, that's why I presented
my class with the opportunity
to go skydiving.
Do something hard.
Do it with your peers.
Build your will muscle.
And I think when you look for
it, you'll see evidence of that
almost everywhere, even on TV.
ERIKA CASUPANAN: I think that
resilience was something that
was always just built into me.
I don't think I remember
a time in my life
where I wasn't being
resilient in some way.
ERIC JANSSEN: That's
Erika Casupanan.
Erika has one of those names
that might have you thinking,
she sounds familiar.
Is it from the
award-winning podcast she
hosts, happy to see me?
Was it at a conference
that she spoke at?
There's one other place
you may have seen her.
Erika, if someone were to ask
you in your own words, what's
your story?
How would you answer that?
ERIKA CASUPANAN: Oh,
I think that the story
that a lot of people
externally would see from me
is the story of this girl
who goes on Survivor,
first person living in
Canada to be on the show,
and then wins and makes history
as the first Canadian to win
Survivor fame, fortune.
Great life after.
And I think that,
as an external story
for people who just know
a little bit about me,
that's cool.
That's humbling and sweet
for people to think that.
But when I think
about my story, I
think it really begins
when I was a kid.
I was born in the Philippines.
And then my family immigrated
to Canada when I was just
1-year-old.
And I grew up in Niagara Falls.
And I think that
right from the get go,
I learned very
quickly that I was
really different from
everybody who was around me.
ERIC JANSSEN: So, Erika,
one season 41 of Survivor.
And if you've never
watched the show,
imagine being dropped
on a remote island
with complete strangers.
No food, no shelter, cameras
capturing every moment
while you compete in physical
and mental challenges,
and navigate complex
social dynamics,
and try to avoid
getting voted off.
It's basically a masterclass
in resilience, strategy,
and even sales.
Anyone who has watched any of
Survivor 700-plus episodes,
knows that you can't win that
game without a bottomless well
of will.
And Erika didn't just survive.
She won the whole thing.
So who better to
talk to than someone
who's been through it
all and came out on top?
ERIKA CASUPANAN: So I
work as a keynote speaker.
I podcast.
I host.
I do the social media thing.
I've acted.
And the common thread
through everything that I do
is around that feeling of
someone who has felt overlooked,
and they're ready to
step into their power,
and they're ready to be
authentic to themselves
and to not be apologetic
about anything.
And ultimately, I
think that I'm just
a person who now gets
to live the dream
and work the jobs
that I always wanted
to do since I was a little kid.
ERIC JANSSEN: When I landed on
this framework idea of sales
success being a combination of
will, skill, strategy, and luck,
I knew I wanted to
break it down further
and see what each of those
pillars was really about.
But more importantly, I wanted
to understand, can these things
actually be taught?
So I broke it down.
And I found that
will is actually
made up of four elements.
I call them the four C's.
Cause, capacity,
capability, and community.
And I really think Erika's story
shows how those elements all
work together.
Also, just a quick note.
Throughout this
interview, you're
going to hear will and
resilience being used
pretty much interchangeably.
In my class on resilience,
I talk about four C's.
One is cause.
Having a reason for why you're
doing what you're doing.
One is capacity.
You need to do things
physically and mentally
to be prepared to
do hard things.
You actually need to sleep.
You need to eat.
You need to drink.
You need to meditate.
You need to take
care of yourself.
Whatever those
things are for you.
You need the capacity.
There's some capabilities.
There's actually depending
on the job or the chapter.
There's actual
skills that you need
to learn to be able to
overcome resilience.
And then there's community.
You need other people
somehow, whether it's
through podcasting, or your
family, or your friends,
or whatever.
So cause, capacity,
capability, and community.
So those four resonate with you,
and is there one that stands out
as being particularly important
in your resiliency challenges
that you faced?
ERIKA CASUPANAN: Yeah,
I love that framework.
Cause is what's going to
keep you motivated to make
sure you have the capacity.
And it's going to be what binds
together potential community.
And it's what's
going to keep you
motivated to ensure that you are
keeping up your capabilities.
So, I think that, for
me, cause has always
been the most important.
Because the other
things, you can build.
You can carve out time
to create capacity.
Capabilities.
You can learn any
skill out there.
And community.
There is so much out there.
And I think that
if you are lacking
in any of the other three,
you can figure it out.
And you can fill them.
But if you're
unsure of the cause,
you could have all
of the other three.
But then that's when you
could be floundering a bit,
or maybe people aren't
really understanding
your product or your brand.
And you might not even be
understanding what you're doing.
And you could feel
disconnection or resentment
from what you're doing.
So cause for me has always
been at the forefront.
ERIC JANSSEN: I like to break
will into four C's, because it
turns a soft skill
into tangible elements
that you could work
on and improve.
And I think you'll
notice pretty quickly how
interwoven they all are.
Again, that's why I
wanted to talk to Erika.
Besides just being a
phenomenally impressive human,
I really think her story
embodies all four of those C's.
And for Erika, the
story goes back
to when she was a little girl.
ERIKA CASUPANAN:
So Niagara Falls
is a great place to grow up.
Learn so much empathy when it
comes to working in tourism.
Also, at the time that
I was living there,
it was an extremely white city.
And I had the experience of
going through elementary school,
high school, and being one
of the only people of color
in the school, let alone the
only Asian or Filipino person.
So I learned really early on
that I had to really figure out
my own way of doing
things and figuring out
how to find belonging and
everything within myself.
From being the kid, going to
school, and being four years old
and realizing I have
to code-switch and talk
to people in a
different way, and talk
about my family in a different
way at school versus at home.
That was something
that I picked up.
I remember consciously going
to school and I'm like, OK,
I have to not eat with my hands.
I have to translate the
things that I would normally
say and the way that I would
refer to different relatives
or even translate the different
traditions we were doing
at home for this audience here.
And people at the school like
me to behave in a certain way.
So I have to switch
to be like that.
And then I would come home.
And I would act
totally different
and talk totally different.
ERIC JANSSEN: This is capability
being built in real time.
At 4 years old, Erika's
learning to read rooms, adapt
her behavior, and navigate
different social contexts.
Those aren't just
survival skills.
They're the exact skills
she'll need decades later
to read people on Survivor
and figure out what they want.
Is being able to code-switch
a skill that is helpful,
or is that a bad
thing, and that it's
a sign of being inauthentic?
ERIKA CASUPANAN:
I think that it's
a skill that can be helpful.
But then the challenge is that
it devalues like the actual you.
It's like you have to
hide versions of yourself
in order to fit in.
And especially when it comes
to marginalized groups who
are code-switching,
it's like they
have to switch to be palatable
to whatever the majority they're
in.
And I think that that's
the challenge where
it becomes the trait
and the experience
that you have aren't seen
as valuable in other places.
And you have to hide who you
are to fit in other places.
ERIC JANSSEN: Like a lot of
kids with similar experiences,
Erika turned to
television, hoping
to find the representation
that she wasn't
seeing in her day-to-day life.
ERIKA CASUPANAN: I consumed
a lot of pop culture
when I was a kid.
I watched every award show.
I watched Entertainment
Tonight every night.
ERIC JANSSEN: Erika's
favorite show, Survivor.
It became a real
source of comfort
for her during
those tough times.
ERIKA CASUPANAN:
Survivor wasn't just
like a, oh, it's my favorite
show and I want to be on it.
But it was really
the culmination
of a chapter of me
building my resilience
and my sureness of myself
and my own personal strength.
The reason that I
actually started
watching Survivor to give
everyone the background.
I grew up in a multigenerational
immigrant home.
So I was with my
siblings, my parents,
and my grandparents
live with us.
And my grandpa passed
away when I was a kid.
And it was the first time I
ever really experienced a death.
And it was the first
time I experienced grief.
And I was a kid.
And then also my parents had
to basically immediately go
back to work and continue
providing for the family.
And they didn't have as
much time to grieve or as
much time to comfort us.
So I'm this kid.
And I'm trying to really process
everything that has happened.
And then this new show
premieres, and it's Survivor.
And you see all these
people out in the jungle
doing these hard things,
pushing themselves.
And I was so immediately
into the show.
Now that I'm older, I can
look back at that time.
And I know that
watching that show,
it was like an escape for me.
And it was a way for me
to really process my grief
and to think, OK, these people
are doing something hard.
I can do this hard thing.
ERIC JANSSEN: Think about
what's happening here.
She's building capability
at 11 years old,
connecting hardship on screen
to hardship in her own life,
training herself to see
challenges as survivable.
ERIKA CASUPANAN: And I remember
being an 11-year-old kid
and watching the
show and being like,
I'm going to be on that
show, and I'm going to win.
It was both this
beautiful escape
where I could leave my regular
life and watch this show.
And I would dream about all of
the ways that I could become
stronger, or all the ways
that I could push myself,
or all the ways that
I could win the game.
And even when I would do
anything in real life.
ERIC JANSSEN: Erika's love of TV
and culture continued to grow.
And eventually, she
headed to Western
to study media, information,
and technoculture.
That degree was the beginning
of a decade-long career
in public relations,
marketing, and branding.
So post-graduation, Erika
was off to a strong start,
a budding career, promotions,
world travel, the whole thing.
But she still somehow
felt unfulfilled.
ERIKA CASUPANAN:
I was good at it.
And I was picking
up these skills
that I still even use today.
And I was finding ways
to challenge myself.
And I was meeting
incredible people.
But the whole time, I knew
that this wasn't the thing.
But something I always wanted
to do was be on Survivor.
I remember I ran a
couple half marathons.
And during that
time, during the race
where you get really
tired, I would tell myself,
when I'm on Survivor
one day, it's
going to be even
harder than this.
So let's keep going.
So Survivor for me,
really symbolized
pushing myself, and being
resilient, and being strong.
When I found out that Canadians
could finally be on the show,
I instantly applied
for the show.
And then I didn't hear
back for a few months.
And then, Lo and
behold, I hear back.
I go through casting.
I'm told that I've
been cast on the show,
and that I have to
get ready and make
all the arrangements in my life
to film Survivor in March 2020.
So for folks who remember
recent history in March 2020,
there was no
international travel.
So, for obvious reasons, I did
not film Survivor at that time.
So all of the arrangements
that I made for myself
and taking a leave of absence
at work and all of that,
it all got put on pause,
just like everything else
in the world.
And then having that time to
myself during the pandemic,
I was able to start
taking writing classes.
I was taking comedy classes.
I was realizing that
being able to tell stories
and do those things that I was
interested in ever since I was
a little kid, ever since
I went to study media
when I was in fims,
those actually
have places in the world.
And I realized as I was going
through my job, mourning
that I wasn't on Survivor.
And also starting to lean
into my creative muscles.
I was like, wow, there's
actually another lane for me,
and there's another path for me.
So when it came time to actually
film Survivor a year later,
I was like, you know what?
I'm not going to take a leave
of absence from the job.
I'm just going to quit.
And I'm just going to do
this survivor experience.
I'm going to let go of any
previous expectations I
had about myself.
And I'm going to do the
experience wholeheartedly.
And then after that, I'm going
to figure out what to do.
ERIC JANSSEN: If you
would have just taken
a leave of absence
or a sabbatical,
do you think you
would have found
yourself doing the same
thing that you're doing now?
ERIKA CASUPANAN: Even when I
think about the version of me
who was supposed to
play Survivor in 2020,
and was just going to
go on a sabbatical,
I think that at that point, I
had been so focused on really
satisfying this
expectation I had on myself
of being the PR person
who had it together, knew
what she was doing.
So I think that
I would have been
so focused on being this perfect
survivor player and making sure
that I didn't do anything
that would make me vulnerable
when it came to my job.
Then I think I would
have come back to my job
and probably been so
frustrated that I just
did this very expansive
experience that
really changed my perspective on
myself and on a lot of things.
And then to just go
back into that space
that I was in before, I think
that I probably would have been
really jaded and maybe
not the best person
to work with at that time.
And I think that
probably in some way,
I would have had to have
gotten out of that lane
that I was in to start doing
the things that I'm doing now.
But I probably would
have burned some bridges
and had some hard conversations
and embarrassed myself
along the way.
So it probably would have
been a way messier route had I
done that.
When I played Survivor,
it was the new era.
It was the first group of
seasons since the pandemic.
So they describe
it as the new era,
because the production
decided that they
were going to change
a bunch of the format
and a bunch of the rules.
So it wasn't exactly the same as
the survivor that we saw before.
And I was someone who was so
prepared, so perfectionist,
studied so hard.
And then I roll into the season.
And I'm like, OK, wait, this
is not what I was expecting.
ERIC JANSSEN: Here's where all
those years of code switching,
that capability
she's been building
since she was 4 years old
suddenly becomes her superpower.
Because while everyone else is
thrown off by the rule changes,
Erika has been adapting to new
environments her entire life.
ERIKA CASUPANAN: But
I was also someone
who had to grow up to
be hyper-empathetic
and understanding of
the people around me.
Because I always felt different.
So I always knew that
the way that people
were thinking and feeling
were different from me.
And I really used that empathy
to help me throughout my career.
So by the time I'm on
Survivor, I'm like,
OK, everything I think I
know on paper is different.
But what stays the same is I
am here with 17 other people.
And they all want something.
Granted, a lot of them want
the same thing that I want,
which is a bit of a challenge.
But they all want something.
And I'm like, if I could
use those skills of empathy
and figure out what else
they want and figure
out how to position myself as
someone that is an ally to them,
or at least not the
biggest threat to them,
and I can move myself forward.
That's what it's going
to take for me to win.
So even doing things like
endurance challenges,
I was sent to a place
called Exile Island.
So it's separate from
the other castaways.
You're on an island completely
alone with Meager supplies.
On the seasons of Survivor,
before mine, typically people
would go to Exile
Island for one night.
And I was like, oh, my gosh,
going to Exile is my nightmare.
And I got sent there
for two nights.
And it poured rain both of
the nights that I was there.
And I have never
cried more in my life.
I'm sure the rain washed away
a lot of my tears, thankfully.
So you didn't fully see me
cry on TV as much as I did.
But even in that moment,
I was just like, OK,
like this is what
you worked for.
This is the moment.
Like all of the things that you
did in your life up until now,
this is what has
set you up for now.
You've got this.
And I remember when the sun came
out, and I was leaving exile,
I was like, wow.
Being out there by
myself changed my life
because I realized that even the
thing that I'm the most scared
of, I can overcome it
because I can do anything.
I had always dreamed of
that survivor moment.
And it was like
second nature for me
finally, when I was there to
do whatever I needed to do
to get to the end and to win.
And it turned out
these qualities
that were often
overlooked by people
and often overlooked by myself.
Those are the qualities
that helped me to win.
And I always tell these stories
with different qualities.
So I also talk about being
courageous in my own way,
in how through being courageous
and sticking to that value,
I was able to make
changes in my career.
Like leaving the 10-year career
that I had and then being
on reality TV and then pursuing
this creative entrepreneurship.
And I show people that,
yeah, those things
that I have were enough for me.
And you definitely have
those things within yourself.
So if you can do
that self-reflection,
and figure out those
things, and start living by,
those values that now
you can make sure shine
and you can make sure are
no longer underestimated.
You get the chance to win.
ERIC JANSSEN: So, like a muscle,
she had built up her resilience.
So that by the
time the real test
came to face exile on
Survivor, she was ready.
So now, does
subjecting my students
to skydiving make more sense?
By pushing yourself to
do uncomfortable things,
you build your
resilience muscle.
But you don't have
to do it alone.
There they go.
That community,
part of the four C's
really matters when it comes
to pushing through adversity.
In fact, research
shows that there
are positive social outcomes to
doing hard things with a group.
A 2014 study by Brock Bastian
at the University of New South
Wales found evidence that
doing hard things with others
acts as a social glue
that builds cohesion
and solidarity in groups.
The study examined
the link between pain
and social bonding in
a series of experiments
where undergraduate
students did things
like put their hands
in very cold water
or competed physically
challenging exercises.
The groups of
students who'd gone
through more painful
experiences reported
feeling more bonded
to their peers
than groups who undertook
less painful experiences.
And almost
universally, at the end
of doing a really hard
thing with a team,
you end up feeling a huge sense
of pride and accomplishment.
Tell me about that.
Second, when you're
hanging out at the door.
STUDENTS: Oh, my god.
I don't even know.
It's like when you're looking at
an airplane and that intrusive
thought of, oh, my god, what
if I was falling right now?
But you're actually
about to do that.
Every instinct in your
body is like telling you,
you should not be doing this.
I think it's very
difficult to sometimes feel
like you're a part
of everything at once
while also being
separate from it.
But it's a feeling I got.
I often fell down.
I was tearing up, freefalling.
Yeah, it was unbelievable.
ERIC JANSSEN: Awesome.
Amazing.
Thank you so much.
STUDENTS: Of course.
ERIC JANSSEN: For my students,
this challenge is preparation.
And that got me thinking
about something.
What if you took that
idea to the extreme?
What if you didn't just use
hard things as training?
What if you deliberately
sought them out?
What if you made a career
out of putting yourself
and others through the most
physically and mentally
demanding experiences
you could design?
That's exactly what
our next guest did.
MARC HODULICH: I just want to
put myself in that position
where real growth happens.
And you don't know what
the outcome is going to be.
But I think you just are so
proud of yourself every time you
have an opportunity to quit.
I know what it feels like to not
succeed, to quit on yourself.
And it feels horrible.
So I'd much rather
face that moment
where I don't want to go forward
and always choose to lean in.
Because the other side feels way
better than the quitting side.
ERIC JANSSEN: That's
Marc Hodulich.
He's an incredibly
accomplished endurance athlete
whose list of finishes includes
the Leadville trail 100
run, Hennepin 100 miler,
IRONMAN Mont-tremblant,
and a sub-4-hour
Marine Corps Marathon.
Just to be clear, the 100
signifies 100-mile runs.
Like what?
So clearly, he
knows a thing or two
about finding the resilience to
push through difficult things.
He also knows a lot
about the benefit
of doing those difficult
things with other people.
In fact, he created a
super successful company
out of bringing people
together to do just that.
Marc is the co-founder
of an endurance event
called 29029 Everesting.
His partner is Jesse
Itzler, a rapper
turned entrepreneur who sold
his businesses to Warren Buffett
and Coca-Cola.
Instead of being
a distance event,
29029 is a 30-hour endurance
hike in which you cover 29,029
feet of climbing.
That's the equivalent elevation
of climbing Mount Everest.
You hike up a ski mountain,
take the Gondola down,
and repeat for 30 hours.
And it's actually developed
a huge cult following.
I somehow got convinced
and had the pleasure
of participating in
one of the 29029 events
in the summer of 2025.
And it was actually one
of the most challenging.
And because of that, most
rewarding experiences
of my life.
I wanted to talk to
Marc because here's
someone who's taken the
idea of building will
through capability,
deliberately doing hard things,
and made it the center
of his entire life.
But here's what surprised me.
Marc didn't start out
as an endurance athlete.
He didn't grow up dreaming
of 100-mile races.
He actually started in sales.
MARC HODULICH: Look, I want to
set the context that I was not
the best door-to-door salesman.
I didn't have the best numbers.
ERIC JANSSEN: Door-to-door
sales, selling payroll services
for a company called ADP.
Getting rejected over
and over and over again.
MARC HODULICH: And there's
a lot entrepreneurs.
You can talk about
all of the highs.
It's way more lows than highs.
It's way more challenges
than successes.
I quit ADP because
I moved to New York
to pursue a career in
finance or consulting.
I wasn't happy in
what I was doing.
And I did find happiness and
joy in being an entrepreneur.
I wanted more responsibility.
I wanted more accountability.
It was a progression.
ERIC JANSSEN: You've done some
incredible endurance challenges,
Leadville 100, Multiple
IRONMAN, 1516, 29029 events now.
And yet, sometimes quitting
is the right answer.
If you didn't quit, you'd still
be at ADP direct salesperson
today.
So, at some point, you had
to decide that quitting
was the right answer.
So how do you decide
when to quit something?
MARC HODULICH: I've had a
failed business as well.
And that failed
business was something
that once I tried every
single thing to make
that business
successful, you have
to look at the fact
patterns and say,
more hard work, more
resilience is not
going to yield a
different outcome here.
It could be market.
It could be pricing.
It could be product,
it could be promotion.
But once you go through
all of those things
and you're still
not finding success,
you just say, well, the juice
isn't worth the squeeze here.
I'm working 90 hours a
week and trying everything.
It's just how opportunity cost.
I can put these efforts
into something else,
maybe be more successful.
And that doesn't
mean you quit early.
But I think once you've
exhausted every single thing you
can think of, you do need
to look at the fact patterns
and say, this may not
end up panning out.
And that doesn't
make you a quitter.
That makes you rational.
Your 20s are a time to just
experiment with a lot of stuff
and get your own feedback,
not what other people tell you
to do.
Go and experience it for
yourself and see how it feels,
and then decide how you want
to spend your 30s and 40s.
ERIC JANSSEN: A lot of
students that are just
starting out their careers.
They want to make the
perfect first move.
They want to do things
like a Marc does.
I want to build my
own thing like a 2929.
But can't really draw
the straight line
from ADP direct sales specialist
2003 to founder of 29029
in 2017.
So I don't know.
Reflecting back on where you got
started to where you are now.
Is it one of those things that
only makes sense in retrospect?
And any advice to
those people that
are just trying to make
the right first step?
MARC HODULICH: Sure.
I mean, no, there's
no straight line.
It's a really crooked line
that becomes a dotted line.
At some point, some
parts get erased.
What I will say is
the success that we're
having and the wonderful
experiences we're
able to provide at
29029 are in large part
because of failures
or mistakes I
made at other businesses
and entrepreneurial journeys
where I didn't care for the
customer as much as we do now,
or the business plan
wasn't as well thought out.
Or I wasn't as intentional
with my business partner
in the very beginning about.
What does success
look like for you?
Do we want to sell
this business?
Do we want it to cash-flow?
Is it impact?
Is it philanthropy?
So as I've gotten older,
I've taken those experiences.
And they've much more
shaped with intentionality
what this has become.
ERIC JANSSEN: He's talking
about learning from failure,
building capability
through mistakes.
But here's what
he tells students
who are just starting out.
MARC HODULICH: It's about
figuring out who you are,
and what you want to
do, and the people you
want to surround yourself with.
Me moving to New
York was a big risk.
Selling payroll door-to-door
for ADP was not fun.
It was figuring out
things and failing fast.
And we talk a lot
about entrepreneurship.
But it is it's just trying.
Things move to different places.
Try a bunch of new things.
I think college is a great
opportunity for that.
But with your own money, invest
in things with a small dollar
amount and lose it.
See what it's like to make an
investment of 1,000 or $2,500
and see it go to zero.
So, when you actually make
money and have success,
you can decide like, hey, do
I have the mentality to place
$10,000 bets, or $100,000 bets,
or $10 million bets and see
a lot of them go to zero?
Do I want to play
in venture capital?
I realized at a very early
age, when I was 24 years old,
and I put $5,000 into an
investment and went to zero.
I couldn't do that.
So I'm a conservative investor.
Do those things when the
stakes aren't as high?
When you don't have a mortgage,
when you don't have employees,
when you don't have
kids to take care of,
take those kind of chances,
so you can figure out
your risk tolerance.
So when Marc was in his 30s, an
opportunity presented itself.
And he was able to run
with it and turn it
into the career he has now.
It wasn't something
that he could
have planned for or expected.
But in retrospect, it
seems like one of those
are, of course, kind of things.
He'd moved to New York City.
But at the time,
back in 2008, it
was just a bit
between some friends
over who was the best athlete
working on Wall Street.
And a friend of mine were like,
well, just put on an event
and do it.
And that was just an
event for 10 friends.
ERIC JANSSEN: Marc and his
friend Dave Maloney put together
a one-day 10-event challenge
and called it the Wall Street
Decathlon.
The first winner, Greg Feldman,
got a $15 plastic trophy
and bragging rights.
Word about the event
spread quickly.
And in 2009, they made it
official, laid down some rules,
and opened it up.
30 people competed in
five events that year,
and it's been
growing ever since.
MARC HODULICH: It
did become something
that was raising millions
of dollars every year
for pediatric cancer research.
That took a while to
get to that point.
There were things that we
messed up along the way.
But we kept iterating,
and were unsettled,
and kept perfecting the
product and service,
and fundraising platform.
ERIC JANSSEN: Marc
discovered that the community
sense of purpose
and satisfaction
he got out of
organizing the event
was much greater than
what he was getting out
of working in finance.
So, just like he'd felt
with door-to-door sales,
he knew it was time to
move on to the next thing.
And that led to 29029.
It's something you wouldn't
have had the confidence
to do if he hadn't
been developing
his will all the way along.
He knew that he was
going to hear no a lot,
that he was going to
make a lot of mistakes,
and that he was
going to have to keep
on pushing through
adversity, and that it still
might not work out.
MARC HODULICH: It looks way
different than it did in 2017.
But I knew it was
going to be imperfect.
I also knew that we could
almost perfect the experience
if we had enough
attention to detail,
and were humble enough to know
that we would mess things up.
And we still do.
It's still imperfect.
And I'm still willing every year
to work on making it better.
So I think you
just have to start.
It's very easy to say that
it's much harder to put things
into motion.
And you have to focus on,
what is the end goal here?
What are you doing it for?
And that's the thing
that I think gets lost.
A of people want to be an
entrepreneur without really
understanding what it means.
What's the end goal
you're searching for?
For me, it's creativity and
curiosity at this point in time.
We're not doing
30 of these events
or 50 of these events, even when
they sell out at 7 or 8 minutes.
Because I want to
test new concepts.
I want to bring
new ideas to life.
I want to care for the
customer and challenge them
in other ways.
That's what I'm after.
So I think it's being very
in tune with who you are,
and what success is going to
look like, and being more inward
focused on what that
success looks like, rather
than outwardly focused on
what is achievement look like,
and what story do I want
to tell other people?
I think I've just
been very in tune
recently with being
honest with myself
about what makes me feel
good, and what fulfillment
looks like, rather
than achievement.
ERIC JANSSEN: Listen to how
clear Marc is on his cause.
He's not doing 29029 for money
or scale or because it's trendy.
He's doing it for creativity
and curiosity and the chance
to challenge people in new ways.
When you're that
clear on your cause,
you can say no to the
things that don't serve it,
even when they look
like opportunities.
We've all got friends
and family who've
been through something really
that tests your resilience.
Do you see any parallels
between the resilience
that we face in what I'll call
manufactured resilience, signing
up to do something hard like a
IRONMAN versus the resilience
that happens, like the really
tough life circumstances that
sometimes come up?
Are there any parallels
between the two of those?
MARC HODULICH: I think
there's a direct correlation.
I do think that doing events
like this does build grit,
and it does build
that resilience 100%.
And will make you more
prepared for those moments.
But life prepares you much
more for an endurance event
than endurance event will
prepare you for life.
I wish people could take that
into account when they come in.
And that's why you see in
ultramarathons hundreds
miles and 200 milers.
The most fit people who were in
their early 20s have the lowest
finisher rate.
It's the life experiences of the
40-year-olds that they're like,
wait, I got through kids, failed
jobs, careers, bankruptcy.
I can finish this.
Life prepared them for
the endurance event.
ERIC JANSSEN: I
saw this firsthand
when I participated at 2929
Everesting at Snowbasin
with my wife.
Of the hundreds of people
who showed up, only 59%
finished the event that weekend.
And a lot of people who didn't
make it were those super-fit
20-somethings that
Marc was talking about.
I learned something
critical during that event.
Fitness alone wasn't enough.
You needed capacity.
We lined up at the starting
line and began hiking that first
morning at 6:00 AM.
After the sun had
set, we had completed
our ninth ascent of the day.
My wife and I decided to record
a short video on the Gondola
ride down to capture
how we were feeling.
It was rough.
Body is running on empty.
The plan is shower.
JUSTINE JANSSEN:
Yeah, quick shower.
Get into bed.
ERIC JANSSEN: Yeah,
get to bed for 1:30.
JUSTINE JANSSEN: That
would be amazing.
ERIC JANSSEN: And then
get back on the mountain.
JUSTINE JANSSEN: 6:00.
That would give us 12 hours
to finish the last four.
ERIC JANSSEN: At
that point, We'd
been climbing for
16 straight hours,
burning 600 to 800 calories
every single ascent.
And at just before 1:00
AM, reality hit hard.
That moment, knowing we had to
be back out there at 6:00 AM,
that's when we understood
what capacity really meant.
It wasn't about grinding
harder or gutting it out,
it was about knowing when
to pause and recharge
so we could keep
going in the morning.
When you're burning that
many calories for that long,
your body needs
constant fuel and rest,
or it just stops working.
And I watched people way
fitter than us have to quit
because they didn't recharge.
They'd skip meals to
squeeze in another lap.
They thought willpower
would be enough.
But without fuel in the tank,
you simply can't keep pushing.
The 59% who finished that
weekend, they embraced that.
Rest wasn't a sign of weakness.
Refueling wasn't quitting.
Taking care of yourself
is the strategy.
But the other 41%,
they weren't failures.
Those people pushed
themselves right to the edge
of what they were capable of.
And there was as
much respect for them
as the people who
finished the 13 ascents.
Because everyone on the mountain
was testing their capacity,
not against each other, but
against their own limits.
And I think the same holds
true in sales and in life.
You can't just will yourself
through every tough season,
every big goal, every crisis.
If you're not taking care of
yourself mentally, physically,
emotionally, you'll
eventually run out of gas.
You can only sprint for so long.
That's capacity.
And you know what else those who
finished the event that weekend
figured out?
They knew they
couldn't do it alone.
I know you do a lot of work to
foster community and the people
that are participating
in the events.
So maybe touch on
the role of community
in doing really hard things.
MARC HODULICH: I haven't
done anything worth
talking about by myself.
When I did Leadville
or I did an IRONMAN,
it was my wife supporting me.
It was my kids.
It was my parents being
at the finish line.
It was my coach, Coach
Brent, being there for me
whenever I needed a pep talk.
We need those things.
We need those people around us.
Some people aren't blessed with
those immediate family members.
The coach, they don't have that.
We can be that for others.
And at 29029, it's
not a competition.
I lead with empathy and a
big heart of saying what
I want to happen for people.
And then you just
show it in action.
It naturally makes
people feel more
comfortable to let the guard
down and be like, you know what?
I do need help.
Yeah, maybe I'm the CEO of
a publicly traded company.
But I don't know if I
can do another hike.
And giving people that
safe place to be vulnerable
creates community because
it's just human connection.
And what's amazing is
for all the divisiveness
that we see with
politics, or economics,
or whatever it may be, humans
just really want to feel good
and care for each other.
And we create an environment
where that naturally
happens because you're
tired and hungry.
And humans are great people.
And I truly believe this.
At our event, we have the
best of humanity on display.
ERIC JANSSEN: And there's
that 4C community.
Marc's entire business
model is built on the idea
that we do hard things
better together,
not competing
against each other,
but supporting one another.
That's community as a force
multiplier for resilience.
Now, you might be wondering, OK,
Eric, these four C's make sense.
But why are you
making your students?
People in their early 20s, jump
out of airplanes to learn this.
Why not wait until they're
older, more established,
when they have real
careers and real stakes?
Well, there's actually a
really good reason for that.
And it has to do with something
fascinating about the decade
between age 20 and 30.
DR. MEG JAY: There's
just more change
that happens between 20 and
30 than in any other decade
in adulthood.
So it's change in your brain,
it's personality, it's job,
it's emotion regulation, it's
friendships, it's relationships,
identity that you'll see more
change here between 20 and 30
than any other decades.
ERIC JANSSEN:
That's Dr. Meg Jay.
She's a clinical psychologist
with a PhD from UC Berkeley,
and she is responsible for one
of the most popular Ted Talks
of all time.
It's called Why 30
Is Not The New 20?
And since it was
published in 2013,
it has over 13 million views.
She's done a ton of research
into what makes your 20s such
an important time in your life,
and has even published three
books about it.
The Defining
Decade, Supernormal,
and the 20 Something Treatment.
Her research into what makes
your 20s such a critical decade,
completely changed the way
that I think about teaching.
DR. MEG JAY: 80% of life's
most defining moments
take place by age 35.
And yes, you could
look at the calendar
and say, well, a lot of them are
happening between 30 and 35 now.
And yes, it's true for myself,
I got my PhD between 30 and 35.
I got married between 30 and 35.
I started having kids
between 30 and 35.
However, all of those
started in my 20s.
So even though I think your 30s
is often when life's biggest
moments feel like they're
coming to fruition,
and that's something to
remember in your 20s.
That you're not going to
feel like you're there yet.
It is actually when we start
all those long-form projects.
ERIC JANSSEN: In other
words, your 20s are when
you're building the foundation.
The resilience you
develop in your 20s,
that we're talking about.
That's what you draw on in your
30s and 40s when the stakes get
higher.
And that's exactly why I
take my students skydiving.
So, if your 20s are the
decade for building will,
what does that actually
look like in practice?
What should you be doing?
Dr. Meg Jay had some
specific advice about that.
A lot of people coming out
of getting their degree,
and they feel a lot of pressure
to choose the perfect job coming
right out of university.
How would you coach them
through trying to pick
the perfect job for them?
DR. MEG JAY: You
probably not going
to have the perfect job coming
right out of graduate school.
You're probably not
in that position
coming out of business
school, no matter how good
your business school is.
And that's OK.
That's normal.
Remember most people
end up in positions
they've never heard of.
So whatever it is you're
imagining is your perfect job,
you might not have
actually heard
of what turns out to be
your perfect position.
So I would be thinking more of
go get the best job you can.
And to me, that
means the one where
you're going to be learning
the most, growing the most.
That'll just help you
get the next better
thing and the next better thing
and the next better thing.
I don't know at
what point you're
going to reach that
perfect job status.
But I certainly would not
put the pressure on yourself.
ERIC JANSSEN: There you go.
So some pressure
off to not worrying
about finding the perfect job
coming right out of school.
DR. MEG JAY: No.
Just the best one you can.
And to me, that means
the most growth.
ERIC JANSSEN: There
was an anecdote
that I saw about, the
right crew around them
to be able to call them
when things are bad.
And we spoke about the
right crew around you
to cheer you on when
things are good.
That you can pick up the
phone and call a friend who
to tell them that
you got promoted
and they're genuinely happy
for you and rooting for you.
How do you think about either
creating or cultivating
those relationships to surround
yourself with the right people?
DR. MEG JAY: I mean,
that's part of, you know,
some of the job
advice that I give.
I often have 20-something
clients who are choosing between
jobs or choosing between
graduate programs.
And I often say,
go where you will
be surrounded by the smartest
peers or the smartest
colleagues.
ERIC JANSSEN: That's
the community piece.
The people around you in
your 20s aren't just friends
or coworkers.
They're part of
the infrastructure
that lets you take risks
and build resilience.
DR. MEG JAY: In work, similarly
to the graduate school,
you often learn
more from your peers
than you do from your
professors or your bosses
because you get
more time with them.
And they're near peers are
going to teach you a lot.
So I just always encourage
20-somethings to surround
themselves with the
smartest, most ambitious.
And I mean that
in a positive way.
Not necessarily it's all
about the money or the status.
But people who want
similar things in life
as to what you want.
I mean, that's important to go
for not just in terms of jobs,
but also in terms of
friendships and relationships.
And I like thinking about who
can you call when life is good?
Who's going to be happy for you?
And who's going to
help your life be good?
And that they're headed
in a direction where
they can bring you with them.
ERIC JANSSEN: Dr.
Jay's book Supernormal
is subtitled The Untold Story
Of Adversity And Resilience.
In it, she looked at
the lives of people
who had experienced
childhood adversity,
and how those
experiences set them up
for incredible
achievement later in life.
She writes about how resilience
is a skill, not a trait.
It's something you do, not
something you're born with.
It's something you can work at,
develop over time, and improve.
And your 20s are a great
time to develop that skill.
DR. MEG JAY: Work is actually
the leading driver of growth
and change in your 20s.
And that's because it forces
you into so many new situations
that you've never
been in before,
and different work relationships
and hierarchical relationships
and customer relationships.
So it's stressful.
People think, oh,
yay, I made it.
I got the job.
It's exciting to get
some amazing new job.
And then you get it and realize,
like, wow, this is hard.
I guess I would say you're
not doing anything wrong
if you go get that amazing job
and realize it's a lot more
stressful than you thought,
or you're not amazing at it
at day one, and you're learning
a lot of things the hard way.
I mean, I do think
one thing I see
a lot with ambitious,
high-achieving young adults,
and I mean, I work
at UVA, so I'm
surrounded by those is
that sometimes they forget
to stay in their lane or
just worry about their lane.
That they look side to side at
what other people have chosen,
and how quickly other
people are rising,
and what other people are doing.
And they forget, well, what
was it I was trying to do?
What is it that's
valuable for me?
And so I talk to people a
lot about looking forward
at where you're trying to go,
what kind of future you want,
instead of looking sideways at
what everybody else is doing.
Because I mean,
you really cannot.
I mean, that's the wonderful and
difficult part about adulthood
is unlike school,
you really can't
compare one person's performance
with another person's
performance.
So it's a great time
to say, you know what?
I just care about what
I've chosen to do.
And I'm not going to
worry about whether it's
as good or as quick
or as fruitful
as what someone else is doing.
It's OK if I don't get the
job that I was going for,
or if my boss writes
me an angry email,
or someone else is
getting further faster
than I am, just to put
that in perspective
and realize this is probably not
the last job you're ever going
to have, or the last
setback or failure if that's
your word for it.
Although I think most things in
people's 20s aren't failures.
I mean, they're just genuinely
learning opportunities.
ERIC JANSSEN: So this is the
part of the show called The One
Thing.
Will isn't something that
the lucky few are born with.
It's something that all of
us can develop over time
if we're intentional about it.
So get out there and start
working on those four 4 C's.
Cause.
Get clear on your why.
What are you doing this for?
Capacity.
Take care of yourself.
You can't do hard things
if you're running on empty.
Capability.
Seek out challenges.
Build the muscle by using it.
Community.
Find your people.
You don't have to do this alone.
Take a risk.
Try something new.
Challenge yourself.
Whether it's applying
for a new job,
asking someone out on a date,
or jumping out of an airplane.
DR. MEG JAY: I'm excited to
reflect after today and be like,
oh, my gosh, I did this.
ERIKA CASUPANAN:
Maybe in the future,
because if I have
this under my belt,
if there's anything else that
comes about and it's like, oh,
this is like a really
big deal, this is scary,
then I will feel more
confident to do that.
ERIC JANSSEN: On the next
episode of Sales Reframed,
we're tackling the most
important sale you'll ever
make yourself, positioning
expert April Dunford explains.
APRIL DUNFORD:
Positioning defines
how your product,
your offering is
the best in the world
versus everybody else
that someone could pick.
So it defines who am I
actually competing with?
What have I got that's
different than them?
What's the ultimate value?
ERIC JANSSEN: Whether it's a
job interview or a first date
or asking for a raise,
you need to know
how to answer these
questions about yourself,
and we'll show you how.
Until then, this has been an
episode of Sales Reframed.
And I'm your host, Erik Janssen.
Thanks to my guest this week,
Erika Casupanan, Marc Hodulich,
and Dr. Meg Jay.
You'll find links to their
socials in the show notes.
This podcast is brought to you
by the Ivey business school.
And I wanted to
take a moment just
to thank them for their support.
Ivey consistently ranks as the
best business school in Canada
and one of the top
schools in the world.
This podcast is part
of our ongoing effort
to take the latest research and
turn it into practical lessons
and real-world insights that
help people learning, growing,
and succeeding in
a changing world.
I couldn't teach these
ideas without their support.
Thanks for listening.
We'll see you next time.
00:48:19,290 --> 00:48:20,000