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Even the most prominent voices in Sales were crap at Sales once.
Join bestselling Author, Founder and Sales Coach Mark Ackers as he speaks with successful Sales professionals about their early Sales struggles, and how they overcame these challenges to become the people they are today.
Mark Ackers: What's coming up in
today's episode? I think lots of
people wear different masks all
the time, right? The mask at
home and mask at work, mask with
their friends, but you who wore
something very similar to a mask
in the sense of a cloak, and
instead of carrying quotas, you
were carrying a little lantern
around the castle.
andrew jenkins: It's a BBC
programme called the traitors,
where there are 22 contestants
placed in a castle in Scotland.
Mark Ackers: How having a sales
background helped him get to the
Final Four?
andrew jenkins: He was
influencing skills to get people
on your side. Otherwise, if you
don't, you're gone. Did
Mark Ackers: you start to think,
okay, look, I'm gonna take all
of my learnings and use a
strategy. What was going for
andrew jenkins: your head? We're
just guessing, but you're just
clutching the straws most of the
time. You think, oh, you're a
trait there. Why are you
scratching your nose, or you
sneezed, or you're a traitor.
How do you know what these
people are like outside the
castle? So you don't know if
they've changed. Their body
language has changed. You know
how well they look like outside
of the castle? So you're trying
to pick up on little changes in
Mark Ackers: behaviour. So you
didn't openly admit therefore
you had, like, 20 year career in
sales, I don't
andrew jenkins: think so. No,
no, I didn't know. I started
lying from day one. People to
say the word sales, and they
think it's a naughty word, they
say, take the word sales away
from here. All you're doing is
providing a solution to people's
problems.
Mark Ackers: I think with sales,
there is just that perception of
manipulation. Do you think if
you would have been quite open
an institute that, Hi everyone,
I'm Andrew, and I work in sales.
Do you think you would have got
as far as you did? Andrew did?
You used to be crap at sales.
andrew jenkins: I did. Used to
be terrible at sales. Yeah, I
applied for a job BEC in Lloyds
Bank. I thought it's a good
place to start my career. I
suppose in Lloyds I was one of
the best in the UK. I went on
numerous recognition events in
London. I treated my customers
as if it was a mother and
father, for example, so I could
sleep at night. I'd never miss
all the product in my
Mark Ackers: life. In 1999
before he started in sales, his
life changed overnight. I was
driving
andrew jenkins: my car on the
20th of August, 1999 I hit a
curb on the left hand side, on
the passenger side, I flipped
the car into the right hand
side. Now, why did it happen to
me? Why? Why I'm only really in
acceptance. I'm not there fully
yet. I don't think, but I'm
getting there. I'm much better
now than I was a couple of years
ago, but I had to work really
hard on myself, and what I did.
Mark Ackers: Hello and welcome
to another episode of The I used
to be crap at sales Podcast. I'm
Mark Akers, co founder and Head
of Sales here at my sales coach
and your host, we call the
podcast that because it's true
and all of our guests say the
same. So who am I joined by
today? Well, if you've been
listening to this podcast for a
while, you'll know we usually
speak to sales leaders,
founders, top performing account
executives, people in the
trenches of SaaS sales and
startups. But today's guest,
well, let me start by saying
they have an incredible story to
share. For over 25 years,
they've worked in corporate
sales, including 16 years at
Lloyds Bank, where they were a
top performing sales individual
and manager. They sold complex
financial products, led large
teams, and seen the highs of
lows with the pressure cooker
targets and relationship driven
sales. But in 1999 before he
started in sales, his life
changed overnight, a horrific
car crash left them with a
traumatic brain injury, months
and months of recovery and a new
understanding of what resilience
truly means. Despite all this,
you might know them for a
different reason. You might know
them for donning a cloak,
sneaking around a castle,
carrying a lantern more than you
do carrying a sales quota.
That's right. I'm really excited
to say this. My guest is Andrew
Jenkins, and he's here today to
talk about his career in sales,
his journey through trauma, the
mindset behind reinvention, and
what really goes on in reality
TV. Andrew, we normally start
the episode with a yes, no
question, but I feel we need to
give the audience the context as
people might not associate you
with sales today, but you spent
over two decades at it. Give us
the high level when it comes to
sales, what were you selling and
andrew jenkins: where? Well, for
18 years, I sold financial
products in Lloyds Bank. I was a
senior manager in Lloyds and
then when I left the bank, I
went into corporate insurance. I
was insuring large businesses
for their liability insurance,
building stock. So I go to large
businesses like stadiums,
construction company. Anybody
who had a business, really, you
legally have to have insurance.
So I did that for eight years
then. So now
Mark Ackers: we've got that
context and rich and long
history in sales. Let's start
with the yes, no question that
we always start the podcast with
Andrew, did you used to be crap
at sales? I did. Used to be
terrible at sales. Yeah. And how
crap are we talking on a scale
of one to 1010, so let's get
into it. First of all, how did
you get into the world of sales?
andrew jenkins: I applied for a
job BEC in Lloyds Bank. There
was a job being advertised. It
was called a personal account
manager at the time. And I
thought back, got 25 years ago,
probably. I thought, you know,
great career. Big company.
Lloyd's one of the biggest banks
in the in the UK. And I thought,
it's a good, good, good, good
place to start my. Career, I
suppose, in Lloyds, what were
you selling? And who to I sit
with lots of like, not enough
clients, I suppose, day to day
customers and sell financial
products. So from any anything,
from a credit card to home
insurance to loans, savings
accounts. So anything you could
think of financial I suppose,
really. And then also I'd refer
clients on, then to financial
advisors to look after their
pensions and life cover, and
also I'd refer them onto a
mortgage arranger, then to
discuss their, obviously, their
purchasing the houses and
Mark Ackers: things. And what
kind of salesperson would you
say you were? Would you say you
were more process, more people,
relationships or numbers? What
kind of salesperson were you? So
people
andrew jenkins: just come with
me the problem. I used to solve
that problem. So I'm a good
listener. I'm a great people
person, and I'm good at building
relationships and deepening
relationships, because I had
hundreds of customers, would
only deal with me. They'd follow
me around whatever branch I was
working. They'd come and deal
with me or I was helping them to
build something for the future.
And I say to people, you know,
you're basically providing a
solution to somebody's problems,
and if you're not, you're Miss
selling. Why would you sell
something to somebody who they
don't need it? So I've always
I'm a people person, my
listener. I sit down listen to
the person for probably an hour
and a two hours first, I
wouldn't mention products or
anything first, until I listened
to them, found out what their
goals were, their aspirations
and what plans they wanted, also
what kept them up at night, what
they were stressed about, they
were worried about, and at the
end that I provide solutions to
them problems just
Mark Ackers: based on the way
you describe that, I can tell
you have a deeper understanding
of sales than lots of people
within that profession, right?
Obviously not. People listen to
this podcast, people listening
to this podcast, get it and
they'll they'll just be nodding
along listening to you. But I'm
guessing you had to learn that
when you first got a sales job,
you wouldn't have known that.
How did you learn that that was
the approach to sales I
andrew jenkins: feel like lots
of things in life, really, you
learn from failed mistakes and
mistakes in life you learn from
but I'm very good when I don't
achieve something in life, or
when I don't, know, hit the
target. This world we live in
nowadays, where everybody's a
winner, there's no failure. I
think it's a lot of nonsense.
And when I do my talks, for
example, I tell people failures
is not a bad thing. I said, you
learn more from failure. But I
was good at when I didn't
achieve something, I used to sit
back and think, right, why did I
not achieve that? Why did the
customer not purchase that item
off me? I would never blame a
customer ever. I'd always look
at myself in the mirror first.
If somebody didn't buy something
off me, I think, well, I didn't
get them to see that. I didn't
make them see the need for that
product or service. So I never
blame the customer. Lots of
people say, Oh, the customer is
a terrible customer. This
customer that I said, No, look
inwards first to yourself, you
they obviously didn't see the
need for that product. So I
learned from trial and error, I
suppose, over many, many
Mark Ackers: years. And I think
that's the thing, like many,
many, many years, it didn't come
to you straight away. Did you
have someone that sort of put
their arm around you and helps
you? Because it sounds like you
become that later on your
career, I was reading about how
you refer to as like an agony
aunt, for example. But in those
early stages, did you have
someone that sort of really put
their arm around you and help
sorry,
andrew jenkins: it was me, a
sorry, it was me, a people
person. I like talking to
people, so I've enjoyed that. So
it doesn't matter what sales job
I did, it doesn't matter what
the end priorities I'm selling,
the process is pretty much the
same, really, whether that's in
insurance, in banking, whatever
it was, it's the same sort of
process in the end, the end
product that can prod at the
end. It didn't matter cars, it
doesn't matter, yeah. But I had
a lot of mentors. I worked with
some good, some bad. Well, I
did. I take the good things from
the good people, I implemented
myself, and leave the bad stuff
behind. So he's taking the good
from all the people around me
and then using that for my own
YouTube, to carve my own craft,
I suppose. And told
Mark Ackers: you about that, you
said you had some good mentors,
some not so good mentors. What's
the difference for you? Well,
people
andrew jenkins: are like as well
documented, the PPI scandal was
huge in Lloyds Bank, the laws at
the bank that cost the bank
billions of pounds. And I saw
people, you know, ticking boxes
on forms the customer didn't
know about. Particular the PPR
on a credit card. For example,
you tick a form, tick, a tick, a
box on their form, the
application form. So 99% 95% of
the time, a customer didn't know
about I suppose so I wouldn't
take practices like that, which
obviously Miss fraud, I suppose
I'm Miss selling. So there was
lots of things used to go on.
This is like a long, long time
ago, because the pressure to
perform was massive. To mean,
then it was huge. The pressure
put on staff to perform and hit
their targets was huge. But I'm
lucky. I'm a strong person, so I
never buckled to the pressure. I
never gave into that, because
I'm a quite outspoken person. I
don't I wouldn't do anything. I
don't believe in myself. So I
didn't believe in something. I
wouldn't do it. Let's stand up
for myself as well, whereas a
lot of people buckle under the
pressure,
Mark Ackers: I can tell you got
a real strong sense of like,
right and wrong, and again, I
really like the way you're
describing that, but just I
probably mumbled my words, but
when it comes to you were
talking about good mentors and
not so good mentors. You know,
people would call them coaches,
for example. What is it about a
good mentor that separates them
from not so good the
andrew jenkins: not so good
ones, they're quite direct, and
the feedback is not very
constructive. Whereas the good
mentors, they let you come up
with the answers, for example.
So they'll they'll guide you.
They'll ask probing questions,
umbrella questions, lots of
different types of different
types of questions, because
every single person has got the
answers inside us. We all got
the answers inside us. We just
got to find out we need somebody
to help and culture us and
mentor us and nurture us, for us
to come up with our own answers.
Whereas the top sales people,
they were quite egos. A lot of
them had their egos. They were
right fixed mindset. It was
their way or no way you do it
like they. This is the way you
do it. You can't copy somebody
else's sale. You can, but it's
not authentic. It's not real. So
if you're trying to copy
somebody else's sales model or
sales process or whatever, it's
gonna be hard for you to do
that, then eventually. So yeah,
it's somebody listening to you.
They don't judge you, and they
just sit in the trenches with
you, and they give you good,
constructive feedback, and they
ask you more that they ask you
more the questions, really not
just giving you all the answers
all the questions. It
Mark Ackers: feels like, again,
I appreciate that's your world
now, and we'll get to that. But
it feels like having the right
coach, someone that has mentored
and worked with you, has had a
big impact on the success of
your career. You said earlier on
how you were the top performer
there, and you kind of
indicated, but I just want to
dig into a little bit more. What
was it that separated you from,
let's say, someone middle of the
road. They had the ability, but
they weren't doing it. What?
What we what separated you to
them, I
andrew jenkins: was driven. I
suppose I know. I like hitting
targets. I'm very competitive
person. I'm sporty, a huge
sporting background, and I
wanted to be a winner. I want to
be the best I could. And, yeah,
and I'm hard working. But also I
did things correct. I did things
right. So people used to come
into the bank, for example,
asking to see me. So I used to
do outbound calling. For
example, I had to do that every
day to bring in the people I
wanted to see. But also, I see
lots of people coming to me.
Recommendations, probably the
best referral you can get. So I
used to get their friends, their
family, their kids, their
grandparents, coming to see me
because they liked me, they
trusted me, they felt
comfortable with me, and they
thought, go and see Andrew. Go
and see Andrew. Come. Go and see
Andrew with his loan. So it's
got lots and lots of people
coming to see me off my previous
work of referrals from other
people, which is the best, best
sale you can get. Really, I
Mark Ackers: couldn't agree
more, and it's just something
that we see all the time.
Referrals are just the best way
to win new business. But so few
sales reps ask for them, and I
appreciate this was more you
were getting them because of the
good work that you did. Here's
what I want to ask. I suppose
you talk about being really
competitive. Love hitting
targets, but on the other hand,
always selling the right thing,
only if they need it, and that
can be a real trap for people
morally want to do the right
thing, but then we've got
pressure. We've got targets. Our
jobs do depend on us being
successful. How did you battle
that? Because there must have
been times when you weren't top
of the leaderboard that month or
that quarter. You could have
sold more, but it wasn't the
right thing to do. How did you
navigate that? Because that'd be
tricky. Yeah,
andrew jenkins: cool. I've seen
that. I've got I've seen it so
many times, and you know, it is
a harder pressure. But like I
said, I've got good morals. I've
been brought up properly for my
parents to do right and wrong.
I'd rather not hit my target,
but doing a correct way, hitting
my target, doing the wrong way,
to be honest, I can sleep. I can
sleep at night. I got a
conscience and I got morals, and
I say I wouldn't. I'd rather
have the feedback or the
repercussions off my boss.
Because I'm strong. I can take
I'm strong, and at the end of
the day, I'm still a human
doesn't mean I'm a bad person.
And then to me, and it's just I
was very good also, as well, at
seeing the people, the high
value ticket people, the one I
needed to see, did help me hit
my target, because in the
branch, in the bank, every
product we sold at a points
value. So me individually, in
the branch had a points target
every quarter, no, it was like
800,000 points. And every
product we sold in the branch
had a product value, a value,
points value. So I was very good
at, like, you know, when I did
outdoor brown calling, you know,
getting the lending, for
example, the lending me did was
the biggest ticket value, I
suppose, or referring people for
a mortgage, you get a huge
amount of points. If you
referred somebody to them your
mortgage advisor, they took out
a mortgage, you get a week's
target, not far off. So why
would I want to work harder? Not
smart, as I work in smarter, not
harder. I'd refer more people
for mortgages, for example. So
I'm not doing the work. Then
really, I get them to come in,
getting to see the need for it,
refer them on to somebody else,
and they do all the work. And
so, because it was that, and
also get a lending in, which is
good, you know, good points
value, you know, people on large
credit card bills at 30, 40%
APR, when I could do a loan for
5% so it's a no brainer. I was
good at objection handling. I
was very good at objection
handling people. So I don't want
a loan. I don't want a loan. I
said, Well, we don't talk about
loans. We go through everything.
We'll have a big interview. And
so I don't talk about products
at the start. And I say,
basically, all you do is lending
money, whether it's on a credit
card, a store card, car finance.
I said, take the label off all
of that and just call it debt at
the end of the day. But you're
borrowing that debt of 30% why
wouldn't you borrow that 5%
there's a no brainer, really?
So, yeah, it's about seeing the
clients you want to see to help
you hit your target. Really.
Mark Ackers: I think one of the
superpowers that it sounds like
you've got that you haven't said
it out loud, is being able to
story tell, being able to bring
what you're selling to the level
of the prospect in a way in
which it makes sense. And I
think when it comes to like
money in fact, people can be
emotionally charged and not make
the right decisions, and that's
where you've stepped in as that
trusted advisor, that
consultant, and you've earned
that because you've listened
well, you've asked the right
questions. You're looking to
guide them down the path that
they want to go down, and you're
just there to help. That makes a
lot of sense. Relationship
andrew jenkins: build is gaining
their trust, then, isn't it?
Gaining person's trust, and also
relationship building is so
important that every job,
everything in life, versus we're
not just sales. I think having a
good relationship with someone
and you're gaining their trust
is really important, I think.
And yeah, I did most of the
time. I taught like I said. I
talked to the client when they
came in. I talked to them for
about their friends, their
family, their grandchildren,
their weather, their holidays,
just to get to know them. Be.
Little bit of a rapport. First
of all, it's like when you walk
into Curry's, for example,
right? You walk into Curry's, or
whatever. You go curry, they
call it, and you walk in, and
there's little sales guy that
tell what we got is television
is 10,000 pixels. And I'm
looking and thinking, you know,
I use that Telly for, you know,
if I was me, I come in, I say,
No, what are you gonna use? I
tell you for, what are you here
today for? What we got? Which
room are gonna use? Italian?
What are you gonna use it for?
Playing video games, watching
films, but not somebody No,
somebody comes in. They'll try
and sell the most expensive
Telly in the world or three
piece suite. They don't know
you're going to use it for. So
you're thinking you're selling
something to me. You're trying
to pick you're trying to fit a
round peg in a square hole. Why
not listen to me first and talk
to me and find out what I want
to use our product first before
recommending products. There's
so many people recommend a
product before you will find out
anything about that customer,
which you're never
Mark Ackers: going to sell. And
I tell you why that happens in
my experience, and keen to hear
if you agree, it's because
people rely on their product
knowledge, because they're not
comfortable having the question,
asking sorry, comfortable having
the conversation and asking
those questions because of fear
of losing out and being attached
to their targets. But you're
right. You take a step back.
What's wrong with your current
current tally? Like, why do you
even need a new one? But so, so
this, as I say, I think people
listening to this podcast is
just gonna be nodding along to
everything you're saying,
because that, you know, they're
they they already invested in
their careers and doing
extracurricular like listening
to podcasts. We'll wrap up this
section of the podcast, Andrew,
I want to understand why
actually made you leave the
finance world? You know, you're
a top performer, you're doing
well, you're leading teams.
You've got a big relationship
network. What made you leave
this world? I didn't
andrew jenkins: agree the
direction I left the banking
world, to be honest, because I
didn't agree with the direction
the bank was going in. I was
there for 88 I think was 18
years roughly, and then I was a
good performer. I handed my
notice in, and the director came
down from Lloyd, the director
one of the banks, and so where
you go? And he said, You got a
great career every well thought
of. And I said, I don't enjoy
the direction of bankers go. In
the last couple of years, I
didn't enjoy my job anymore
because I understand why they
were doing I'm just a number
Lloyds Bank, a huge I'm a nobody
in Lloyds Bank, but my boss used
to say to me, assuming against
the ocean, you're swimming
against the tide all the time. I
said, Yeah, but I don't agree
with it. You're forcing people
to go online. It's when they
come into the branch, they have
to pay and using a machine, they
all want to use internet. But I
said my skill is sitting with
clients, listening to them
deeply in relation. My skill is
relationship building. But the
bank didn't want them anymore.
And last going off one of my I
was with a client. I dealt with
this guy for about 10 years. He
was in his 70s. He was a widow.
I think sometimes you just come
into the bank just he was
lonely, I think. But he come in
like twice a year. I sit with
him. He had 800,000 pound in
various savings accounts in
Lloyds. He could have got better
interest rates elsewhere, but he
liked me, trusted me. I dealt
with his wife's bereavement, and
he kept his money with us. I was
in the room with him. 1000 there
for about, I think it was two
hours, an hour and a half, two
hours. I came up to the room to
get a brochure, and my director,
my local director, was in the
branch, and he said to me, what
are you doing in there? I saw,
see Mr. Jones, or whatever. I
said. He said, he's an hour and
a half. I said, so. I said, it's
not an egg timer on the table.
Is there? I said, you know, I
don't, I don't work like your
hours up now. You got to go now
every another don't work like a
conveyor belt. I'll sell stay
there as long as it takes. He
said, What are you selling him?
I don't sell him anything. I
said, I'm making sure he got the
best. I said, the reason that
guy is money is with us is
because of me. So I'll stay in
there all day if I got away sex,
800,000 pound, if we got that
much in, like, savings, that
means you could lend it out the
other side as well. So, you
know, that guy can get better
rates in Halifax, in, you know,
principality, but he stays with
me. He likes me, he trusts me.
So I think I don't, I don't work
like that. I mean, I got, I got
a timer. Now, for every customer
I saw it on a timer. I can't
work like that, so I left the
bank to go into insurance. So
even though the insurance is
heavily regulated by the FCA,
it's still quite old school. So
you win a client, you insure
their business. And they don't
care who you're working for, if
you're working for, it don't
matter what insurance company
you're working for. They like
you. They trust you. To insure
their business, to protect their
business, and you should take
the rugby matches, take him for
meals. Go to restaurants as
well. That's about relationship
building. So I enjoyed that
world. I loved I did enjoy
working in insurance. I only
left there recently after
obviously, I don't know where
you're gonna go into but after
my short TV stint, I left my
insurance world after that, then
about 16 months, 17
Mark Ackers: months ago, so
we're definitely gonna cover
that. What I want to touch upon
now, Andrew is definitely a
topic that I have not explored
the guests before, and I want
you to share just what you're
comfortable with, really, but
you've openly talked about the
crash that you had in 1999 I
read about it, and you know,
it's hard to read about, right?
Is, even though I don't know
you, I appreciate we met an
event. But can you, just for
anyone who's not heard this
story before, at a level you're
comfortable with. Share with us
what what did happen? I was
andrew jenkins: driving my car
on the 20th of August, 1999 and
there was five of us in car, in
the car in total. There was my
partner at the time in the
passenger seat, one of my
friend, my best friend, and his
girlfriend in the back, and a
girl I used to work with in the
back. I hit the curb on the left
hand side, on the passenger
side, and I flipped the car into
the right hand side. So I was
out. I went out to the driver's
side window, so the door, I went
out that door window. So my top
half was out the car, and my
legs were in the foot well of
the car. So my head and my arm
would drop. My arm, as you can
see, my arm and my head would
drag along the floor for a
couple of 100 yards along the
tarmac. And when the car stopped
sliding, it landed on top of me.
So when the emergency services
turned up in the vehicle, they
were asking people in the car
quite. Questions, and they said,
it's too late now we think he's
dead, so I'm not a ghost. I
didn't die. Don't worry, I'm
here. But I was, I was in a
really bad way, so I lost six
pints of blood in my body, and
we got eight pints of blood. So
I lost need all my blood. I had
to have two blood transfusions
on the side of the road there
and then, and the fire brigade
had picked the car up to get
underneath the car, to get
underneath the car, to work on
me, because it was on top of me.
I went to one hospital in South
Wales called the Royal Gwent in
Newport, but there was nothing
they could do for me there, so I
had to have a police escort.
Then now to another hospital in
Wales, because that's when
neurology was on plastic
surgery. At the time, I took the
top my head completely off. I
had no hair, no skin on top,
nothing on top my head at all,
and I smashed my skull to
pieces. Had a big hole in my
skull, about that big, probably.
And the first operation I had
that night was take all the bone
up my brains. Had a lot of bone
embedded deep in my brain. So
the surgeon had to take all that
way. That was the first
operation I had. I was in a coma
then for four weeks. But
obviously, while all I was going
on, my mother and father got the
dreaded knock on the door from
the policeman, the one the No
parent wants to say, you have to
come with us now. Your son's
been involved in a road traffic
accident and RTA, and they
thought his little bump in the
car. So so we'll get change.
We'll come with you now. And the
policeman said, you haven't got
time to get changed. You have to
come with us now. Is critical.
So they were they were taken to
the first hospital where I was
as soon as they got to that
hospital, I was on a trial. He
came out the hospital be put in
the back of an ambulance to be
transferred to the second
hospital. They weren't allowed
to see me go in such a bad way
as you can imagine. My head
being dragged along with tarmac
wasn't a pretty sight. It's not
a great site now, but it's a lot
better than it was. Than it was.
And then they basically had to
follow in a police car, and they
were also told that I wouldn't
make the trip from one hospital
to the other hospital, which is
probably about 40 minutes or 35
minutes away. Yeah, so that's
what happened, and I was in a
coma for four weeks in intensive
care. In fact, given my life,
it's
Mark Ackers: tough to listen to
that. I mean that in the right
way, of course, talk to me about
the recovery journey, like
physically. What did that
entail? When I was in my
andrew jenkins: coma, my family
were called in on a few
occasions. I wouldn't make it
through the night. I got three
brothers, two older brothers,
one younger brother, my mum and
dad, obviously. And then when I
did start recovering, they said,
from the scans we've done on
him, he's got severe brain
damage. There's lots of shadows
on his brain, which means dead
tissue. So he said, You don't
think he's gonna wake up. If he
does wake up, he's not gonna
recognise anyone. He's not gonna
walk, talk, use arms and legs
ever again, so won't be able to
recognise anybody. So I woke up
after four weeks in intensive
care. I didn't know where I was
or it happened to me. My mother
had to explain it to me. She was
standing on my bedside, hearing
my dad, you know, crying, yeah,
I didn't know where they had to
explain where I was, what
happened and everything. And the
doctors came round about three
days later and saw four days
later and told me I would never
walk ever again. And my first
response was, I guarantee I walk
in this hospital. He said he
won't. And I said, I will. And I
argued with the surgeon, and my
mother said, it's embarrassing.
You're lying in intensive care
with all tubes coming out to
everywhere, and a tracheoft in
my throat there, and the man is
trying to tell you not going to
walk again. You know, arguments.
I knew will and I did. I proved
the doctors wrong. I learned to
walk again. It took me about two
weeks. I think it was when I
first got to bed was it's quite
scary or frightening, I suppose,
because I trained for a long
time. I trained as 14 years of
age, a lot of rugby and train
weights and everything. And I
know, I know my muscle memory
anything, but when I got out of
bed for the first time, I
literally couldn't find my leg.
I could not remember to walk,
and the physio to pick my feet
up, put one in front of the
other, and after a couple of
days, I remember to walk again.
Then, so it took me about two
weeks, learned to walk again. I
wasn't very steady, but I could
walk. It was awful. The physical
injury I'm terrible, as you can
imagine. My lungs collapsed.
They caught MRSA, everything you
could think of. And then my
biggest challenge were mental
health, unbeknown to me, really.
So I struggled with mental
health for years, and my life
was literally a car crash,
excuse the pun, for many, many
years afterwards,
Mark Ackers: and talking about
mentally, what was that process
like? Then to recover from that
andrew jenkins: disaster? To be
honest, I was offered
counselling after my accident,
or therapy. They said, Well,
you've been through horrendous
and I assumed I was a 21 year
old, ignorant macho testosterone
for a kid, invincible, because I
should talk about bringing in a
second obviously, I think it's
quite related on my upbringing.
But so I refuse counselling. I
thought I would see somebody in
a white coat who judged me,
psychoanalyse me and try and get
inside my head. And I thought,
I'm not seeing them. I can't
relate to they can't relate to
me. So I refuse counselling. I
didn't see anybody I like my
family background quickly. I'll
just go into that. I said, Got
three brothers, two older, one
younger. My dream, like lots of
people in Wales, has played
rugby for Wales, and I probably
would have done that. So from
five years of age to 21 my
dreams play rug for Wales. My
brothers played rugby
professionally. The three of us,
we all played very, very good
standard of rugby. So 21 years
of age, my dream got taken off
me, and I say to people, I said
to you know, I talk about toxic
masculinity and positive
masculinity in my talks now and
everything. And I say, I said,
growing up, I didn't show any
feelings and emotions. For
example, I didn't think I could,
because a man, as a man, you get
told to suppress your feelings
and emotions. Very, very young
age, don't cry. Girls cry. Don't
be a baby. So I was brought up,
but obviously the three
brothers, competitive brothers
as well, we still show feelings.
I didn't show my vulnerable side
at all, and so I didn't talk to
my family after the accident
either. So we didn't speak about
it. For you 20 or 24 years,
nobody spoke about it at all. So
yeah, it was hard, and so I
really struggled. So I get up
every day, go off to work with a
shirt and tie on with a big
smile on my face, and life and
soul of the party behind closed
doors, I hated myself. Wish I
was dead, wish I won here.
Anymore. I hated what I look
like in the mirror. I couldn't
accept my scars. Call myself a
freak every single day. My
mother said it's heartbreaking
for her to hear because no when
listen to her own son called
himself a freak every day. Was
heartbreaking when people just
come to my parents. I was to
visit my mum and dad. I'd run
upstairs and hide in my bedroom.
I don't want nobody to see me
because I was a freak. I only
started wearing short sleeve T
shirts for about four or five
years ago, I saw a long sleeve
shirts or jump but I wouldn't
wear I hated my arm, my scar on
my arm, and, yeah, I self
sabotage. Anything good
happening to me. Yeah, it was a
night. I never tried to do
anything. I never tried to take
my own life. There's some dark
days, and when people tell me
they got depression, they
haven't, most people haven't got
them a bad day, because with
depression, this is what I
think. I never got diagnosed or
anything, but I used to lie in
bed some lie in bed someday,
looking upstairs, looking up at
the sea, and crying my eyes out.
To get out of bed was hard work.
And physically dragged myself to
bed every day. It was hard. It
was a real chore to go to bed. I
could easily lay in bed, pull
the quilt over me, and stay
there for months, to be honest,
that'd been so much easier. So
it was hard working out of bed,
really. So my life was a
disaster for many, many years to
be after my crash.
Mark Ackers: I mean, again,
like, really, really tough to
hear that. But it's, it's, it's
commendable, how honest you're
being and sharing that, because
I think people don't hear that
side right. And how has that
then changed your mindset and
outlook in life? Like, how do
you now approach challenges
adversity, given what you've
gone through, I'm guessing it's
given you a whole new
perspective. It's
andrew jenkins: only the last
few years, really. So you know,
15 years after my accident, I
went for counselling for the
first time ever, because, yeah,
I was self sabotaging things. I
was upsetting people close to
me, loved ones, and pushing
people away. So eventually I
went for counselling, and the
woman I saw was amazing. So one
tip I'll give anybody who's
listening to this, if you're
struggling, please go and see
somebody. You know, there's lots
of people out there suicide
rates are going up, which are
discussing at the moment. I
think it's because people, they
don't want to open up and talk,
especially men. Bryce, I went
for counselling, and it was
brilliant. The woman I saw was
incredible. And after the first
session, she got I know what's
wrong with you. I think I know
what's wrong with I said, What's
that? PTSD and depression? And
she goes, Yeah, you probably got
them as well. But no, you're
grieving. I said, grieving? I
said, What do you mean grieving?
That's when you physically die.
And she said to me, young,
physically got to die to grieve.
She's all grieving is the
emotional reaction to the loss
of the loss of any kind. She
goes, people, when they're
tender for a big project in work
that doesn't come off. You know,
tender of this project for weeks
or months, it doesn't come off,
that's grieving. She goes, when
you move departments in work,
retire from job, have to give up
a sport from an injury. So
people, even when they have
children, grieve, she said,
because then they can't go out
as much. Don't worry much money.
Now, you grieve in loss of
identity. All I heard of you
today so far is I used to play
rugby. I used to look like this.
You're grieving. You're old
Andrew, your old life. She's got
so people watching this. I bet
every single person on here is
grieving at some stage of life.
I don't mean a physical loss. I
mean if they've lost a job,
retire or change their career,
whatever, moved apartments in
working, when you lost your
friendships, and that so
grievance massive. And I was
trapped between the seven stages
of grief. And I think I was
between number two and six. And
number two and six is arguing,
bargaining, depression, you
know? Why did it happen to me?
Why? Why? And then number seven
is acceptance. I'm only really
in acceptance. I'm not there
fully yet, I don't think, but
I'm getting there, and I'm much
better now than I was a couple
of years ago, but I had to work
really hard on myself, and what
I did, I held a mirror up to
myself. A few years ago, I
started working on myself,
because most people in life,
they don't look at themselves,
they don't hold them up to
themselves. They just walk
around saying and doing things
they're not very self aware. And
people say, Oh, that's just the
way they are. No, it's not the
way they are. They can change.
They want to change. They can
change. And I know why people
don't do it, because holding a
mirror up to yourself is scary.
You got to look at your flaws,
your triggers, your faults. But
I said until you start doing
that, you can't really blame
everybody, because in this
country, we've got a huge blame
culture. We blame the
relationship, your job. You
blame your kids, your father.
Look at yourself first. Start
looking inwards first, before
you start looking at everybody.
Else. So I started looking at my
triggers, my flaws and my faults
a couple of years ago, and
worked on myself. And it's been
tough. There's been great. It's
been enlightening. This is
empowering, but I've started
looking at that, and I started
doing that the last couple of
years. So I'm wondering, I'm in
a good place now, really, I'm a
Mark Ackers: really good place
in my life. Well, I'm really
pleased to hear you feel that
way. That's great. What was it
that made you after all those
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wish I
andrew jenkins: can give some
amazing guru answers, if you
have one, like light bulb
moment. But there was, it was a
combination of lots of small
things, really, like pushing
people away, I you know. And
this thing in this country,
right? We get brainwashed right
from a young age. We get
brainwashed from a young age. We
are in school, five years of
age, six years of age. We our
self worth and value as a human
being. Starts getting judged by
the material things and
achievements in life. So if
you're in school, if you're an A
grade, the teachers love you. If
you get an E grade or a D grade
get written off, you start
getting judged by people in
school, the teachers in school
go to university. You have to go
to university to be successful
in life. And you think, I don't
go to university, but if I want
to be successful, I have to go
to university. Then your parents
might start, they might start
like conditioning you to fit in
with society, or don't do this.
Do this. Be a doctor like your
mom, be a teacher like your dad.
Do this like your brother. So
you start getting compared. So
your playful, like when you're a
child, you're the most
authentic, real, real version
yourself. When you're born,
you're running around, you're
playful. You've got no self
esteem issue, no confidence
issues. Then we are conditioned
to fit in with society. The
teachers do it, your parents do
it, and then we find a job, then
the biggest salary possible in
the corporate world, we're led
to believe more money means more
happiness, or we go off to
university and to study
something which is a total waste
of time. Be a thought. Well, I
got to do that because I want to
be successful in life. So all
these little things, and it's
only when you get an awakening.
I looked in the mirror when I
was about 40 odd, and I had
everything in life that I was
told to make me happy. Because,
again, from a young age, we get
led to believe that our
happiness comes from external
things, external achievements,
material things. But it's not
our happiness starts inside. It
doesn't matter how big your
house is, what car you've got,
what trainers you're wearing, or
if you've got 100 it doesn't
matter. You could have as much
money as you want, but unless
you're happy with yourself,
you'll never be happy. So look
in the mirror. When I was 40
odd, I had a nice house, a nice
car, good job, nice body,
attractive girlfriend, bro.
Still felt miserable. I was
thinking to myself, I got
everything in life that I was
told to make me happy from a
young age, but I'm still empty.
And the reason is, I think
you're climbing everybody else's
ladder, every else's
expectations. Know your own
expectation. They call it the
second there's a book called The
second mountain. So I'm now at
the bottom of my second
mountain, and now building my
life and do what I want to do,
to make me happy, not to keep my
parents happy, not to make them
proud, not to fit in my social
circle or my friends, and do
what I want to do now, because I
know like three men, for
example, in their 40s, who took
their own life in the last 12
months, who had very successful
careers in in London, I think
it's because they got to the top
of this ladder. They earned so
much money, and they felt they
felt empty, and they lost their
purpose in life, but they
couldn't go backwards. And they
said the only way out for the
easiest way to do is,
unfortunately, take their own
life. They had children,
married. Their partners didn't
work. They lived such a
lifestyle, high lifestyle. These
men probably couldn't tell their
partners they were struggling so
and they didn't want to take a
drop in salary. They couldn't
afford to take a drop in sorry.
Big mortgages. Nice holidays,
fancy cars. So when you get that
state does, it's tough. So
people, you know, people do take
their own life. So, yeah, a long
answer, I know, but I held them
up to myself a couple of years
ago. So I work on myself
basically.
Mark Ackers: Do you know why,
though, why a couple of years
ago? Why not in five years time?
Why not 10 years ago? What was
there a moment where you're
like, it's time to pick the
mirror up.
andrew jenkins: I met the man
who saved my life two years ago.
I tracked him down on Google,
which were creepy. There was
lots of little things. I started
working on myself and, you know,
studying and reading, learning
about myself and trying to find
out why, why I was like, I was
like, why I was like, why? For
why I got triggered by certain
thing, why? And then I met the
man who say, my life. I tracked
him down. I've always wanted to
see the guy, but, you know,
people say, Why didn't you see
him earlier? I said it wasn't
ready. I wasn't in a good place
back then, so I felt I'm in a
good place about two years ago.
So I sent him a long email
saying, you probably don't
remember who I am. This guy is
really well respected in
medicine, so he advised the
government, for example. And
then I sent him a long email. He
replied A few days later,
saying, of course, I remember
who you are. Your injuries will
always stay with me. So for him
to say that, first of all, I
thought, wow, that's, that's,
he's operated on 1000s of
people. So I went to see him. I
went to see him where he is, and
I walked into his office, and it
was a really emotional day. It's
not every day you get the chance
to meet the man who saved your
life or shake his hand. I walked
in and he said, Wow. He said,
You're a miracle. You should be
dead. You should have died on so
many occasions. I can't be a big
and strong you are. It's
incredible. So meeting him made
me realise I got a second chance
at life, and how close I come to
death. So I can either walk
around for the next 3040, 50
years with a chip on my
shoulder, resentful, angry
looking back at life, or I can
use my trauma for good now to
help inspire other people,
because I don't want people to
struggle like I did for 25 years
in silence, like lots of people
do, I know I struggle for
sighting silence like I only
spoke to my mother and father
the first time ever about the
accident. Two years ago. It
happened. 26 years ago, we
bottled it. I didn't talk to
anybody about it, nobody really,
apart from the counsellor, yeah.
So I wanted to start sharing my
story and talking about people,
and then talking about my accent
and my how I felt and I was and
it was funny. The first video I
put on social media, on
Facebook, I had 1000s of views.
I had hundreds of people
messaging me, saying, I can't
believe you're going through
that you always seem a life and
soul. You always seem bubbly and
fun. I can't be they felt they
had really sorry you're going
through. I said, it's fine. You
know, they'd be sorry about
this. I wouldn't have shown you
that side of me anyway. And if
you had offered me help, I
probably would have said no. And
they said, a lot of people
messaged me saying I felt
exactly the same as that,
because a lot of my friends are
gym people, corporates, doormen,
body guards, gym people, the
worst, toxic rugby people. So
lots of people messaging me now,
saying, I feel exactly the same
as that. As a result of you now
I started now talking to my
father, my brother, my sisters,
my kids. So rather knock on if
it had the effect they wanted,
really,
Mark Ackers: it certainly sounds
that way. If someone is
listening and resonate. It's and
feels that way. How would you
encourage them to pick up the
mirror and start it's
andrew jenkins: being brave and
being courageous and being
vulnerable. In this country, we
think vulnerable is a weakness,
but it's really not as a
strength. And I was vulnerable
to millions around the country
on television. But yeah, it's
being brave. It's having and to
be honest, it's about thinking
the people around you who really
matter. Okay, they're gonna love
you exactly the same, no matter
I like I touched earlier on. I
know it's all it's very good to
achieve things in life and get
good grades and win things in
life, but if you don't, don't
beat yourselves up. Don't think
you're a bad person, because
you're not. I said the people
around you, your parents, your
caregivers, your family, your
brothers, they're not gonna stop
loving you. If you don't achieve
your grade, they're not gonna
stop love if you miss your
target in work or the people who
actually matter, they're gonna
love you exactly the same. So be
brave and have that
conversation. Because in this we
build things up in our head like
I did for 24 years. I'm not
gonna sit here and say it's
easy, because it's not. The
research says 85% of all you
overthink or worry about never,
ever comes true. 12% comes true,
or 30% comes true. But nowhere
near as bad as we think is
something like two or 3% comes
true. So there's all this energy
and worry we give give this
thought never comes true.
Because I said, be brave and
courageous. And I said, as soon
as you start being open and
vulnerable with yourself, your
relationships every round you
will be much better, because
they again the true version of
yourself, not some persona
putting off it's been it's about
being authentic and being true.
I took my mask off. People,
probably people watching this
now wear masks. Everybody wears
a mask. So I wore a mask for
pretty much all my life, I
suppose. So I took my mask off a
couple of years ago and being my
true version of myself now. So I
say to people, talk to people.
Have a good support network
around you, and just make sure
you talk to someone really
Mark Ackers: So Andrew, it's
really interesting, and I've
been smiling away because a
couple of times you've hinted at
your appearance on TV, and
there's a nice segue there, you
talk about wearing masks, and I
spotted you so an event, and had
to come and talk to you about it
before we get into that. Just
for anyone who has been living
under a rock for the last three
years, tell us all what TV show
you're on and how would you
describe it? I can probably
andrew jenkins: butcher this,
though I probably won't give it
the justice it deserves, but
I've got a programme called it's
a BBC programme called the
traitors, where there are 22
contestants placed in a castle
in Scotland. Claudia Winkelman
is the host. And at the start,
we're around a table called a
round table. They're all
blindfolded. And then Claudia
will pick traitors amongst you.
So we don't know how many there
is. There could be one that
could be up to six or five, I
think there was. And then once
you take your blindfold off, the
rest you are called faithful. So
you got traitors and faithful.
The whole point in the game,
there's a few things. Every day
we have a challenge to win
money. And at the end of the
game, then is a prize fund, and
the winner wins the prize fund.
So every day, you have to a
challenge, and then every night,
there's something called the
round table. And the whole point
of the game is to vote out the
traitors. So you've got to vote
the traitors out. Otherwise
there's any traitors left at the
end of the game, they win the
prize fund. But also, every
night, the traitors get to
murder one of the faithful, not
really, but they do not
literally murder them, but they
can murder one of the faithful.
So it's a game. It's a really
clever game, to be honest,
because during the day, to
complete your mission, you have
to work as a team. So they put
you together as a team. In the
day, you're high fiving each
other, hugging each other at the
end, and then a couple of hours
late, they're ripping each other
apart the round table. So it's a
massive psychological game and a
physical game, I suppose. So,
yeah, it's a clever game, yeah.
So that's it in a nutshell.
That's the that's the game in
the Castle in Scotland.
Mark Ackers: And I will go as
far as to say, in recent years
in terms of, I think you'd call
it a reality show. It's it's
been one of my favourite
watches. Like all three series,
I've watched the Australian
versions the American versions.
I'm big, big fan of the show. I
think the show's got some
interesting flaws around, like
traitors getting to recruit
people and faithful. Do they
vote each other out? Is that a
more sensible strategy? And like
you say, you're working together
during the during the day and
the night time, and people
sometimes vote tactically rather
than actually going for
traitors. But for all of that, I
just think it's incredible TV.
And I remember your series,
well, I remember you got to the
Final Four, didn't you? Yeah,
but let's just go back a step.
First of all, again, you've
spoken about how it took you a
long time to accept who you
were, a long time to really show
yourself to the world. Talk
about going 100 mile an hour.
You've gone from, you know,
saying that you could just lie
in bed all day and not get up
and not see anyone, to going on
what was arguably the biggest TV
show in terms of anticipation.
Series One was huge. Series Two,
everyone now wants to watch it,
and you put yourself out there,
which is incredible. How did you
actually get picked, though?
Because there's 1000s and 1000s
of people who applied, I'm
guessing, through the
application process, you use
some of your sales skills to
stand out and to be picked and
to work with the producers. How,
how did you land one of these 22
spots? Well,
andrew jenkins: initially, I
basically, my previous partner
made me watch the first series
because I don't like reality I
don't really watch reality TV. I
don't watch a huge amount of
Telly, to be honest. But. She
kept on. We always thinking of
things to watch in the nights on
Netflix, for example. I mean,
when, when a series finishes,
all we got to watch next. So she
kept saying to me, Oh, this is
programme of your it is really
good, called the trait does I
said, I'm not watching reality
TV. It's rubbish. I'm not
watching reality TV. So she wore
me down, like lots of women do.
She wore me down. Wore me down,
and I eventually gave in. So we
can watch it, I said, but if
it's rubbish, we're turning it
off. She's put the first episode
on. I'm thinking inside, I'm
thinking, it's all right, I
don't mind that. I didn't tell
her that though. I said, Yeah,
it's okay. I don't mind it. At
the end, she got to the first
episode. What do you think
that's all right? I don't mind
it. So it's not that it's okay.
I don't mind if you don't watch
the next one. So we binge
watched the first series over
four three days. We watched the
12 episode of three days, and
the first series on in November
or December, somewhere, like the
centre of the Christmas it was,
and I said, Oh, it's funny. I'd
like them. I wouldn't crack or
to go with that. And I put in
the cosmos, I think so. And then
in March, then the following
year, I had a message on my
Instagram from a casting
director saying, your story
looks incredible. You look like
a nice person. Do you fancy
applying for this show? Because
I didn't initially apply. If I
didn't, I didn't apply, I
wouldn't have applied for
myself. I said to my partner at
the time, if I don't care about
being recognised in the street
or whatever, and I said, but I
could get a great profile, a
great platform and connections,
I'll do what I want to do now.
So I wanted to start talking
about mental health and things
that help people with mental
health before the show came
along. But I had a couple of
followers, not many followers. I
never really use Instagram, so,
you know, I didn't really have
any, you know, connections or
anything. So I only went on the
show to get a profile I got now
to help more people what I do
now. So it had the effect they
wanted. So initially, I didn't
approach that. They approached
me initially, and then I had to
go through the application
process. And I think, when you
what, I always think, what would
they want from somebody on tech?
They want somebody the good
story. It was nice to watch it.
They don't want somebody on the
tell who's boring, because the
viewers aren't going to watch
that, are they? So I want
somebody who's got a good story
and just normal, I suppose.
Yeah. I went through the process
and my story's my story. I
couldn't make my story up. My
story's my story, I suppose so.
And if you look at all the
people in there, most of them
have got a good story, like
Molly, for example, their limb
difference and stoma. There's
lots of down. There's got really
good stories and backgrounds. So
it was normal people in a castle
we know, like, celebre is normal
people. We don't know each other
from Adam, so, yeah, we just
chucked in this castle and
thrust in the limelight. And
it's a good series. It's really
good. I
Mark Ackers: think that's the
pill of it to me, in the sense
of you are just, as you say,
normal people. And I think
that's where the the like
American version, where it's got
celebrities and pre connotations
and ideas around who each other
are, doesn't quite have the same
effect, but so that's
interesting. So a producer
reached out to you, saw your
story, and quite rightly, you
identified that as a great way
to build a bit of a platform for
yourself to do what you really
want to do in life and and share
the story that you want to
share. I love that. Let's go
back to when you got into the
castle. Then you've obviously
seen series one. You're now in
that castle. Did you have a
strategy? And do you feel like
your sales skills that you spoke
about earlier, building trust,
building relationships, empathy,
listening, asking the right
questions? Did you start to
think, okay, look, I'm going to
take all of my learnings and use
a strategy. What was going for
your
andrew jenkins: head? I wish I
could, honestly, if you could
tell on the telly, I think I
wish I could say I did have
amazing strategy. I didn't. I've
just beat it myself. I thought I
get to know everybody. Be like I
say you don't want to say too
much, otherwise you get voted
off or murdered, but you don't
want to say anything at all
because you get they look
suspicious. So it's about
getting that balance. And it's a
tough game. He said, it's a
numbers game, like sales. This
was a numbers game, isn't it,
you gotta get enough people on
your side influence. Use
influencing skills to get people
on your side. Otherwise, if you
don't, you're gone. BEC, as soon
as the numbers turn against you,
like Johnny, for example, it was
eight people against him, like
so no matter what he said, once
they're against you, there's
nothing you could do to change
their mind. And you don't know
these people from Adam. So I,
like, you know, I did, NLP, for
example, neuro linguistic
practitioners study human
behaviours and that. But how do
you know these people are like
outside the castles? You don't
know if they've changed their
their body language has changed.
You know how well they look like
outside of the castle. So
you're, you're trying to pick up
on little changes in behaviour,
but we're just guessing, but
you're just clutching the straws
most of the time. You think, Oh,
you want to trait that why? Or
just scratched your nose. Are
you sneezed or you're a traitor.
So you just guessing most of the
time. And that's why I think
most of the every series so far,
the trait has been winning seven
one. I think every everybody the
trait does a winning eight one.
There's seven wings at the
start, you're just guessing it
to be to get caught as a trait
at the very start you gotta be
You're hopeless to get you get
caught out at the start as a
traitor. When you're a traitor,
you can see you're watching
that. You're seeing everybody.
You're looking at everything
that's going on. So you're
playing chess, basically, you're
listening to other people.
Remember, really got to do a
lot. So in Harry one, to be a
traitor from the very start is
easier than change. I'm not just
saying that, but from the start
you got one game plan. You got
to say that game the same game
plan the whole game. When you
got to change halfway through or
later on, it's much harder.
You're trying to change your
game plan. And you also get you
feel as you start getting a bit
paranoid that everybody's
talking about you, you think
you've changed. You probably
haven't changed, but you just
think you out so like being a
traitor from the very start,
things easier. And all you're
doing when you're a traitor, you
listen to people arguing you.
And you're just adding fuel to
that fire. So if one person goes
against the other and tells you,
yeah, he's a guy, I agree with
you. I think they're a traitor,
and all you'll do is add in fuel
to the fire. Because if you
watch Harry, he didn't have to
say or do a lot, to be honest,
he just had to, like, add a bit
of fuel to each of the fires.
Now you just sat back and
watched it, watch it unfold in
front of him, really so I don't
know if he was really good or
everybody else really
Mark Ackers: bad. I think the
audience would wonder that as
well. He had that key moment,
obviously, where he got Paul
banished. That was a big moment.
But here's a question I'd love
to ask you, right? So, and you
said at the start, people see
sales as a bad word. I think you
use dirty word. I can't remember
the exact word, yeah. Did you
tell anyone the castle you were
a salesman. I
andrew jenkins: did an insurance
broker. I think it was an
insurance broker. Well, they
thought that. I don't know, but
insurance broker, I was an
insurance broker at the time. I
was still doing my insurance
Mark Ackers: job. So you didn't
openly admit therefore you had,
like, 20 year career in sales,
for example, I
andrew jenkins: don't think so.
No, no, no, I didn't know. I
started lying from day one. Do
you think that would
Mark Ackers: have harmed you?
Because I agree what you said,
like, the perception, again, not
people listening to this
podcast, but the average person
on the street, if you were to
say a little bit like, when
people have gone the show and
said that, yeah, they're an
actor or an actress, like,
straight away, oh, well, that's
a true behaviour we saw in the
last series. You know. Oh,
Doctor by day, murderer by
night, people try and take your
occupation. But I think, I think
with sales, there is just that
perception of manipulation,
right? Again, like you say,
putting fuel on the fire, but,
but really, sounds isn't about
that, like sounds is exactly how
you described at the start. It's
about only doing and helping
someone solve a problem, and
your job is to ask the right
questions and to listen. But
that perception is not going to
be the reality of 22 people in
the castle. Do you think if you
would have been quite open an
institute that, Hi everyone. I'm
Andrew, and I work in sales. Do
you think you would have got as
far as
andrew jenkins: you did? I think
the castle that switched on?
Yeah, I probably would have. I
think I don't know. I don't
think, I don't know. We just, I
think a lot of us just a bit of
fun. Things were fun. We didn't
really play a game. Or I think a
lot of it's quite surreal. It's
hard to say until you get into
the castle. It's different. It's
different. You watch it at home,
and it's easy to when you watch
at home, you think, oh, it's
obvious who the traitors are,
but obviously they edited it in
a way to make it look good for
the television. Don't get me
wrong, everything you see on the
television is exactly like it is
in real life. Nothing is nothing
is scripted. They don't tell you
what to do, what to say, but
obviously the editor, like from
day one, you know on the
television who the traitors are
from the straight from this
first episode or second episode.
But when you're in the castle,
you know you you wouldn't know
that, and you don't get to spend
a huge amount of time with each
other in the castle, to be
honest, you because when you're
filming, it's such a big place,
such a huge, beautiful castle,
you can't spend all your time
with each other. So you're like,
you got two of you in this room,
three. You outside, two. And
then you have a couple hours in
the morning reality TV or
filming, and then all of a
sudden you gotta get ready for
the mission then, which takes a
couple hours of the day. You
gotta have your health and
safety briefing. You gotta drive
to wherever you're filming. So
that takes out a big chunk of
your day. And by the time you
get back then to the castle
after filming your mission, you
gotta get ready of your dinner.
And then you gotta go to the
wrong table then, so you don't
get a huge amount of time.
Amount of time. You get bits of
time with each other, but not
it's not a huge amount of time
to try and pick up on different
behaviours, and different people
say, twisting each other. You
don't really get that much time
with each other. So it's much
harder when you're in the
castle. He
Mark Ackers: looks on the telly.
So I can well imagine, like you
say, it's a 24 hour day, and we
get 60 minutes every night,
obviously trimmed down, you had
to go from faithful to traitor,
which, again, I remember that
happening because you weren't
happy about it, but it was a do
or die situation. So if you
understand the game, you had to
do that. But I think just from
everything you shared, just
being a trait, wouldn't sit
naturally to you, right? It's
deceitful, it's lying. It's
manipulating. It's it's doing
all the things that you've had a
whole career not doing. And
again, you don't want to be seen
like that. If you're seeing this
as a platform where you can
build a bit of a name and a
brand for yourself, you don't
want to come out as the bad guy.
You know, no, no one likes the
asshole that was on a reality TV
show. So I imagine that was
quite difficult for you, but
equally, you had no option. You
wanted to stand the game and
build your profile as long as
possible. But how did you find
that going from faithful to
traitor and starting to lie
overnight? How did you handle
that emotional flip? I think if
andrew jenkins: you watch the
show, you could see I was quite
distraught. I wasn't very happy
about changing. I took me. I
took a while to think about it,
and then once I calmed down, and
after the envelope with my
chair, I feel like if I, if I
didn't join I was gonna get
murdered. And that's what they
told me. Paul and Harry said to
me, you're such a strong,
faithful I didn't get any votes
around table. So long any votes
around table. And then they
said, The only way you're gonna
leave is either getting murdered
or joining us. So if you didn't
join them, I was gonna they
would have murdered me the next
night, so I did the right thing,
and I thought to myself at the
end, it's a game. I The whole
time I was in there, my feet
were firmly on the ground. I'm
not a stupid person. Is a game
at the end of the day, it's an
intense game, don't get me
wrong, but it's a game. I
thought my family, they love me
exactly the same. I come first
or tend a lot. It doesn't matter
where I come. I wanted to stay
in. Game, and I thought, people
will watch it. I was myself. I
didn't I didn't lose my temper
on the television. I didn't
shout or cry or make anybody
cry, because I thought, after
the show, I want to do mental
health and talks and that, so I
can't very well be making Molly
cry shouting at that. And then a
couple of weeks later I talk on
mental health, then I think,
well, that's contradictory while
you're on the telly. So I was I
come across. I think I come
across quite well. I haven't
seen any bad feedback, and
everybody said I was true, I was
authentic, I was genuine, and
that's what I am. I've always
been the same. I can't be
anything. I'm not. And when I
when people meet me now, they
say, you're exactly the same
real life as you. I'm gonna tell
you, see, what do you expect? I
am a normal person. I'll never
change the person I am. Don't
care how successful I am, how
much money I have, I'll never be
that. I'll never change. I'll
always be the same person, and
I'll treat every single person
with the same respect. I don't
care if you're a cleaner or a
CEO of a huge company, I'll
speak differently depending who
I got in front of me, but I'll
give them the same respect, and
I'll treat them all exactly the
same. I come from a council
estate in South Wales, so I know
where I come from. I've had to
work really hard in my life to
get what I have, and I've never
been given anything in my life.
My three brothers would say we
all all successful. Yes, I was.
I'm genuine, authentic, and it's
a game at the end of the day,
but I didn't like because it
goes to like it goes against all
my
Mark Ackers: morals, really, and
I can sense that, and I could
imagine that it's difficult, but
like you say, it is a game.
That's exactly what it is and
and you've got to see at the
table, so to speak. It's
interesting what you said
earlier. So I hadn't realised
that, but comes back to me, you
didn't get a single vote at the
round table. And I wonder, was
that because you were doing what
just subconsciously you've been
doing for 20 years, listening to
people, asking questions, having
empathy, being curious, being
interested, to be interesting,
making about them, not about
you, just enough so you're not
completely under the radar and
suspicious, but really using
your sales skills to build those
relationships where you are seen
as that trusted person, like, it
feels like, Well, you didn't
have that strategy. That's who
you are, and it served you
really well. Is that
andrew jenkins: fair? You hit
the nail on the head there, to
be honest. I think, yeah, I
think everybody liked me, every
trusted me. And yeah, I was
listening to I didn't really,
like, manipulate anyone, or I
didn't really, I didn't spread
any gossip or anything. I
didn't, I didn't lie at all.
Really, I didn't have to lie at
all. I didn't really say I just
got to know everybody, a little
bit of everybody. I got on with
everybody, I think, in there.
And yeah, I say, use my sales
skill. Like I say, I haven't
been known to me. That's what I
done. I've done naturally all my
life, I suppose, yeah, like I
said, get to know little people,
listen to people. And I didn't,
yeah, I didn't really. I didn't
cause any suspicion towards me,
I suppose I didn't like I didn't
tell somebody one thing and tell
somebody something different. I
didn't, I didn't do that. So,
yeah, you hit the nail on the
head, I think, to
Mark Ackers: be honest, yeah.
And when you started wearing a
cloak, I imagine that's a lot of
fun, though, in a way, right?
Like, it's a lot of fun you get
to, you get to sneak around the
castle doing traitory things,
and like, you get more time with
the producers, and they'll
probably make you feel a little
bit more special and make you
feel like you're a bigger star
in the show. And I imagine it's
a lot of fun, but was there a
moment where you were having to
tell lies and looking people in
the face? And there's a classic
phrase, I'm 100% faithful, I
promise. Like, were you at any
point just really uncomfortable
andrew jenkins: with that? Oh,
yeah. Back to the cloak. I've
always I've loved Luke Skywalker
growing up. So I thought I was a
Jedi. So I've always I love Star
Wars, Star Wars, my firm where I
loved Star Wars, all of the Star
Wars films. So putting that
cloak on me feel like a Jedi
Knight. So yeah, but one thing I
felt really bad for was Ross,
because we recruited Ross me,
and how you recruited Ross,
brought him into the castle, I
brought him into the tractors
fold, and then we turned against
the round table and Ross, I
think that was one of the
reasons I lost. I could have won
that game. I think, personally,
I was going under the radar. I
was going to start talking to
Molly and jazz about Harry,
because jazz was 5050, anyway,
and Molly, I got on really well.
There I was like, I was like,
their dad. I was like, Harry and
Molly's dad. They were calling
me dad, both of them, and they
are younger than my son,
actually. So because I was going
to approach things towards the
end the last few days, whatever.
But then Ross went mental at the
round table. He lost his head at
the round table because I said
the word elusive. So he said,
Oh, you called Harry elusive.
And looking back, I don't know,
I just didn't say yes, because I
thought, if I say yes, now
Harry, I had quite a lot of
people on inside, so if I'd said
yes, Harry would have known I
was going against him. So he
would have got me murdered or
banished the next night. Then.
So I thought I said the Ross, I
thought I said the Ross. I
didn't say that word. And he
went mad, and he changed his
vocal round table from Harry,
are you? I can't remember jazz
or something. He changed to me
after that, after that, then
everybody was saying to me,
Molly, why did he Why did he do
that? So I don't know. I
thought, oh god, he's messing my
chat. It's suspicious coming on
me then. So like, Molly, after
the show, said to me, I didn't
really suspect up until that
point. So, so like Ross, Ross
cost me 95,000 pound. Really,
I'm not bitter about it at all.
But who needs 95,000 pound?
Mark Ackers: Hopefully he's,
he's bought you a pint, at least
after the after the show. Right
now, how stressful was it?
Because, because I, again, it's
saying that sit on the sofa, you
watch it, and you just think, I
don't know if I could live with
that stress of constantly either
as a faithful not knowing, and I
think that would drive me crazy,
the not knowing people in the
morning, everyone's celebrating,
welcome to breakfast. I'm
thinking, three of you are just
liars. I'd really struggle with
that side of it. And I think
I'll just, I think the producers
have to take me aside and tell.
To calm down, because I'd
struggle with that, but on the
flip wearing a traitor cloak and
just having to constantly think,
what have I said? How am I
acting? What am I doing? It? It
caused me such anxiety. Like,
how stressful was it for you? It
was okay
andrew jenkins: for me. The
hardest bit was the wrong the
round table is not nice, but I
was fortunate where I didn't
really get accused that much at
the round table. So I saw
people. Brian, for example, just
totally crumbled, and he started
muttering and talking to
himself. And either what
happened in him the round table,
he's lost the clock, I think he
accused himself at one point of
being a traitor. I don't know
what happened to him, but I'm a
calm guy, a cool guy being a
bodyguard for letting down your
doorman. So I keep my calm, and
I was okay, but it's not nice
when people start accusing you.
I was a faithful when I got
accused by Diane, I think he was
or somebody accused. I can't
remember who, even though he's a
faithful, I felt you think you
get hot inside. You start
feeling hot, and you start
getting your temperature goes
up, your adrenaline kicks in,
and it's not nice. But I guess
I've seen people, if you've got
2345, people against you, you're
fighting a losing bat like but
that's not a nice feeling. I saw
like Johnny, for example, I felt
so sorry for Johnny because I
was gonna vote for him, but by
the time he got around to me,
he'd already had six or seven
votes, and he was a broken man.
He just sat there, broken and
he's a good he's a great guy.
He's a lovely guy. And I really
got a lot of time for Johnny.
And I thought, I'm not gonna,
I'm not gonna kick him or get
him anymore. He's a human being
the end of the day. And all
these people here. They're human
beings. They got real lives. As
soon as they leave this show,
they got a real life for their
friends and families. They're
not going to break people or
upset people. But yeah, it is
stressful. Round Table is can be
quite stressful, but the game
itself, and when you change from
a faithful to a traitor, that's
a bit strange. You just thought
myself feeling guilty. It took
me a few days to get into that
role, I think, as a traitor. But
if the first few days, it looked
so obvious on the television. It
was so obvious. I think the
breakfast, I was like shocked in
breakfast, and it was so obvious
I was a traitor, genuinely.
Mark Ackers: If you've not
guessed, I could just do the
whole podcast talking to you
about the traitors, but keen to
move on, because I want to talk
about what you're doing now. But
before I do just my last
question, what's it like coming
out the show with that sun level
of attention and recognition,
and I appreciate you wouldn't
say you're famous today, but
equally, I spotted you at show,
and I'm like, well, first of
all, I was like, I swear I've
had a couple of discovery calls
with this guy. Like, I didn't
know where I knew you from. Then
the penny dropped, and I wanted
to come say hello to you, right?
I'm glad I did, because we
sorted out the podcast, even
though it cost me 20 quid
because I lost a bet. I was
listening. I bet rich Smith,
what series you're in. I was
wrong. I'm so sure as well. But
what was it like going from, you
know, you know, just being a
normal person, like you used the
word nobody earlier on, which is
obviously not a nice phrase, but
being a normal person to being
recognised, having people follow
you on Instagram and Twitter,
and people having an opinion of
you. What is that like?
andrew jenkins: Nobody can
prepare you for that, to be
honest. Obviously, they're great
to their well being. Studio,
Lambert, who produce the
tractors, they've really got
their well being. It went on for
months. The application process
goes on for quite a few, quite a
while, I suppose. And they tell
you all that, and we know, you
know, we're gonna get involved
in and your media and all this
sort of thing. And people will
come out to the woodwork and
say, you know, nice things about
you. And things about you and
doing it, but nobody can
actually prepare you to actually
happens. And when you're on the
show, it's strange. Whenever you
leave the show, you've got a
different experience, I suppose,
and it's hard. So like Aubrey,
for example. So for months and
months and months he built up in
his head, and he'll be back, and
you're on the show, and he gets
voted off first. So there's
months and months and months of
planning. He gets voted off the
first day. So, like, you didn't
see Aubrey again then and then,
obviously, other end of the
scale, and the winner is totally
different world he's in now. But
I like, for me, I come forth. So
I'm quite a recognisable person.
I said, I've got a big guy
scars, and I quite memorable. I
suppose. I get recognised all
the time when I go places. Now,
18 months later, I get asked
about it all the time. And about
the first couple of months was
crazy. Wherever you go, every in
Cardiff or whatever I was I'm
sitting with my partner or
sitting with my son on a quiet
meal, and you got so many coming
over to you, coming over to you,
constantly coming over with your
kind of photo, girl photo, the
number of times I left early,
whatever I was able to go home.
I saw it. I saw overwhelming. It
says so much I like talking. As
you can tell. I like talking and
meeting people and everybody
come up. You had they were all
amazing. Lovely feedback. He was
such a great guy. You should
have won you the best traitor.
Your lovely your lovely story.
And so I never any bad feedback.
But it's still sometimes you
want a bit of privacy, to sit
with your family or sit with
somebody. But it's relentless.
And you sat on a train coming
back from Manchester and people
walking past, kind of taking
photos or sneaky photos. You on
the sly and that, and you can
see him doing under their arm or
so, taking a photo. And that is
a bit it's funny. But I can't
imagine our real celebrities,
how they how they manage all
that constantly, all the time,
all these big celebrities where
it's like, everything you say,
everything you do, it in the
paper straight away, the guy
went for a massage, or if I'm
going to see a chiropractor, the
next day, I posted on my
Instagram this, I've been seeing
him for a couple of years. I
post on my Instagram that day,
or internet, in the newspapers
and the next day. This is where
Andrew keeps his body in shape.
This guy literally the next day
from Instagram. The next day,
it's all the newspapers in the
sun, the Daily Mirror showing us
your chiropractor. It's funny,
like it's not even good news.
It's rubbish news, to be honest.
But yeah, it's funny. Write
about. So it's fun. I just think
it's been a fun debate. I enjoy
it. And I'm not a celebrity.
People, you're famous. And I
said, I'm just a normal guy. I'm
not. I'll never change. But
there are some negative
downsides to her as well. Other
people come out the woodwork,
turning lies on you, trying to
manipulate and tell lies and
sell stories now. So it's not
nice. There is stressful as
Mark Ackers: well. So I should
ask Andrew like because everyone
else will be thinking this when
you're saying home, watching it
back on TV. I'm guessing it's
like five, six months later.
What does that feel like?
andrew jenkins: Cringy, I hate
the sound of my voice. I don't
hate I don't hate anything, but
the sound you don't sound
anything like in real life. Of I
don't think you're doing it's
the same. Whenever I talk to
people, people say that's what
you sound like, though I don't
think I sound like that. It's
the same as well. When you
listen to yourself back, or
anybody listens to themselves
back. You don't sound like that.
But, and I don't get to see it
on the television. I don't get
to see it before you, so I'm
waiting, the same as everybody
else from the country, waiting
to watch it like you said. I
filmed it five months, six
months before, so I can't
remember what happened to what I
said six months ago. So sat
there thinking, Oh, please don't
say but I know I didn't do
anything bad anyway. But you
can't remember all the stuff we
did and said, and it's funny
when he walks in the back. So I
every Wednesday, Thursday,
Friday, I sat there waiting,
watching your family waiting
this year. And obviously the
editor version is incredible.
It's like a film, to be honest,
with the owl everywhere. And
it's brilliant. Well, yeah, it's
brilliant while you see on the
telly, but it's strangely
listening to people talking
about you. And yeah, you listen
to people they said on your
back, and things. And it's quite
fun here. But it is funny. It is
strange, though it's very
strange. Did
Mark Ackers: you all have, like,
a big Whatsapp group? We have
still got the WhatsApp group.
Yeah. And if you don't mind,
because I always find like,
what's, what's the name of the
group? Is anything interesting,
other than traitors
andrew jenkins: 2024, traitors
family. It's just called no
date, just traders family. And
Mark Ackers: is every contestant
in it. Yeah, good stuff. Work.
So again, you can tell I love
the show. I could talk to you
about that for the whole
podcast, but I really want to
talk about now what you're doing
since, because that was the aim,
right? If I can get on this
show, I can build a platform for
myself. Can really talk about
mental health and drive that
awareness. So after the show,
you've come out, you've you've
launched Andrew Jenkins
coaching. Tell us what, what
does that business do?
andrew jenkins: My main, my main
income stream, or what I would
do mainly, what I enjoy that my
passion is two things, I
suppose, doing the keynote
talks, but I call them
educational talks. I don't call
myself a keynote speaker or a
motivational speaker, because
they are so boring. I've seen so
many of them over the last 20
odd years in rugby clubs and
things I think, yeah, good talk.
I am relatable, so I call myself
an educational speaker. Or I
like them. Call them educational
talks because I want the
audience to take things away
they can implement in their
lives, their friends, their
families, their work colleagues,
for example, because my story is
relatable to millions in this
country. So my upbringing was
fine and my upbringing was good.
We just didn't talk about
feelings and emotions and that.
So, you know, I talk about
failure. You know, I thought
failure was a bad thing growing
up, and I wouldn't step in my
comfort zone. So I stayed in my
comfort zone, or my fixed
mindset for many, many years
now. The last couple of years,
I've stepped massive up my
comfort zone, but I enjoy it. I
got a growth mindset now. So I
talk about that. I talk about
social media. Talk about a lot
of social media, which I've been
involved in a lot the last year,
which is massive at the moment.
So I do a lot of talks, and I
also like working in schools
with the younger generation,
because I think if you want to
change the culture in this
country, we have to educate the
next generation, the kids, the
children. Because it's all very
well me standing up in front of
corporate companies women and
men in their 30s, 40s, 50s. But
then if you want to have change
in this country, we got to talk
to the younger generation, talk
to them about you know,
feelings, emotions, and it's
okay to fail. It's not a bad
thing. And I say what I think I
want. I love going to school and
talking to kids, and that's my
purpose, I think, in my passion
in life, and meeting that doctor
who saved my life, he gave me,
my purpose in life is what I'm
doing now. I also do lots of
workshops as well, around
resilience, vulnerability,
leadership. So I break my talk
down into, like, different,
different workshops, really. So
what I've been through, what I
experienced myself in a
corporate world, and it's funny,
I tick lots of boxes. I've been
in a corporate world for 30
years, successfully. I was told
to never walk ever again. I've
been in a coma. I lost my self
confidence, my self esteem was
nothing and no self esteem. So I
talk about that, which is a
massive problem at the moment.
Yes, I everything I talk about
is things I've experienced or
overcome myself, to be honest.
So nobody can ever say to me,
what do you sell your tax book
for five years? What do you
know? Well, I know because I've
been through myself. I
Mark Ackers: think that leads
back to what I labelled for you
as a superpower that you didn't
mention. Storytelling coming,
coming from a place of I've done
this and and that's what, that's
what lands with people
authenticity. This person's
walked and lived and breathed
the story they're sharing. I've
got your workshops in front of
me, So in no particular order.
Well, they're all on your
website, so maybe there is a
particular order, but one's
called dare to be real the power
of vulnerability in leadership.
One is the failure is not final.
So cultivating a growth mindset
in teams, and then we got the
resilience revolution, which is
empowering leaders to combat
burnout. And then there's
thriving minds unleashing the
power of mental well being at
work, I'm sure you'd say all of
them. But if you had to pick
what's your favourite one to
deliver and why, I enjoy
andrew jenkins: the I like I
like them all, but I enjoy the
failure one, to be honest,
because there's such a stigma
out there the failure. Yeah, and
I've been through myself in my
sales job, I suppose, where
leaders used to shame people
into performing. I say you're
not gonna get the best out of
your staff by shaming them your
bottom of the league table, the
bottom of the KPI. You're at
this KPI, and like in the bank
years ago, if you did it to
target the individual target
that day, or you didn't sell
your ppi, for example, on a
loan, sometimes the manager make
you stand up in the morning,
huddle in front of the whole
branch, tell the branch why the
branch in this target yesterday,
or why you didn't do your PPI
yesterday. They're trying to
make you look you know, shame
you I say that's the wrong way
of doing things like vulnerable
leading is good, and people
think vulnerable is like the
boss is crying or making sure
they're weak. I say it's not
about that. It's about
humanising yourself, and it
creates a much better culture in
your workplace, in your
environment, in your office. I
said, because when you're at the
top of the ladder, when you're
an employer, what you're looking
at these MDS and their CEOs,
these large companies, and
you're thinking, they're like,
God, they're untouchable. They
never make any mistakes. They're
perfect. I see the leaders admit
to your staff you've made
mistakes in the past, but also
how you overcome them. And then
so people can say, well, I'm
making mistakes off it's not a
bad thing. I won't get chastise.
I won't get dragged over the
coals or made to look stupid if
I'm open, honest. Because if
you, if you are vulnerable
people in your workplace,
everybody wants to contribute.
Nobody's scared of failing.
Everybody contributes good
ideas. It's much innovative,
creative company as well. So
yes, that's what, that's what I
think is really so,
Mark Ackers: yeah, so here's
what's difficult about the sales
world and being vulnerable and
failure. And I want to hear what
you say to this, but you
mentioned right at the start,
egos. I believe everyone in
sales. I mean, I believe most
people in general, but everyone
in sales has an ego to some
extent, like it can be really
small, really big, but
everyone's got a level of ego.
It just depends where they are
on the scale. So there's ego
there, then there's no one
really wanted to be in sales. We
all sort of fell into sales,
right? Like no no one grows up
saying they want to be a
salesperson. When you go into
schools, I bet no one says to
you they want to grow up and be
a salesperson,
andrew jenkins: especially
insurance broker. Nobody ever
wants to be an insurance broker,
right, exactly.
Mark Ackers: And then you've got
the failure. Well, if you fail,
you lose your job. And actually,
if you fail a couple of quarters
in a row, you can lose your job.
It can be very hard. And then,
like you say, it's leaderboards,
it's KPIs, it's targets, it's
about every part of a sales rep
is measured on revenue and
activity and they're successful,
one quarter that's back to zero,
and there's that competition,
and then you've got the ego
side. It's such a cauldron of
emotion that you can understand
why people are afraid to fail.
And here's the biggest problem,
when you're afraid to fail in
sales, it leads to the wrong
behaviours that you push into
your prospects. That's when you
start selling the wrong thing.
That's when you start acting
desperate. That's when you start
being pushy. That's when you
stop doing what you said. Why do
you even want this product? What
is it you wrong with your
product today? What room you're
gonna watch the TV in? Why are
you gonna use it? Whatever
example, whether it's TVs at
Curry's, it's finance products
at Lloyds or insurance products.
But it's really difficult. How
can we embrace this as a
salesperson failure? How can we
embrace this? And it is tough,
and I'm gonna
andrew jenkins: say again, I'm
gonna sit here. This is easy,
because I've been under lots of
pressure over the year of many
years, I suppose, where I mean,
but I think it starts from the
top of a company. It does start
from the top, but I say to
people, normally, nobody really
goes to work to do a bad job.
Don't get me wrong, there are
people out there who are
sabotage. That's different
conversation altogether. Then.
So I think there's a skill
issue. Is a will issue, pure of
skill and will. If they got a
will issue, that's a different
conversation. And if they got a
bad attitude or change, they
needed that something different.
That's a maybe a coaching plan
or a PIP or whatever. But
they've got a skill issue. You
recruited that person for a
reason. You obviously bleeding
that person when you recruited
them. They got the skills, they
got the knowledge, they got the
experience. They got the
experience. You obviously like
that person. Recruited them,
then, you know, coach them,
nurture them, give them, give
them the right skills and right
tools to be able to be
successful. You know, not. You
know, people go through bad
times in life, and you know,
outside things in work might be
causing that, and people say,
don't bring things into work.
We're all human. We all got
feelings and emotions. If you go
through a divorce or somebody
died, course, you're gonna bring
into work, you know, in a robot,
so at the end of the day, and I
used to take my things into work
sometimes, but I guess having a
good manager to try and know
their staff and find out what
makes them tick. And when I do
my you know, when I was a
manager for many years, lots of
different branches I worked in,
I was trying to treat every
member of my staff as
individuals, but also found out
why they came into work that
day, what makes them get up
every single day and come into
work and come into work every
day? And people saw money? I
said, No, it's not money.
Everybody can save more money.
It's what are you going to do
with that money? Or send my
little boy to university, buy my
girl her first car? Right? So
that's your motivating fact,
that's your purpose. And every
time you want to stop doing
something or do something,
remember your purpose, your why.
It's just about treating your
employees and find out, you
know, treat them all as
individuals and actually find
out what makes them tick. I
suppose we're also coach them
and nurture them getting the
right skills to be successful.
So I think everybody's got the
ability to be successful the
right with the right coach and
the right
Mark Ackers: support. I believe
that as well wholeheartedly, the
challenge is time. Most people
don't get the time that they
need to. Be successful and like
sports, a really good analogy
for that. I can't really talk
rugby to you, because you'd find
out I don't have a clue about
rugby. But when it comes to
football, like management is
just a great example. If you're
not successful, you can lose
your job after six, seven games
in sales, it's a couple of
quarters. I think what you said
is really interesting, though,
right? So first of all, let's
talk about recruitment, like you
say, is it a skill or a will
thing? One of the things is
really interesting. So my sales
coach, we we provide evaluations
where we can evaluate sales
people, and we evaluate them
against 21 core sales
competencies, and it benchmarks
them against 2.5 million sales
people. Is incredibly detailed,
scientific research, proven,
validated assessment. But you
know, the number one competency,
that's the most important is
commitment. If they're not
committed, no matter what you
do, they are not going to be
successful. So I think the
commitments there, that's the
will thing. Then it comes down
to a skill thing. And like you
say, you've hired them, you
believe in them, but it comes
down to now enabling them and
coaching them. Here's the
problem in sales, and you've
experienced this, good
salespeople get promoted because
they're good sales people. That
doesn't make them a good coach.
And you've said yourself,
there's good coaches and bad
coaches. How do we solve this
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andrew jenkins: I see it so many
times, if people get promoted in
the bank, for example, to
management positions because
they were good at sales I said,
they're two totally different
skill sets. They're totally
different. I said, you know,
sales people got one different
you know, I'm not saying they
can't be but a lot of the time
these good sales people are
quite ruthless and they're
quickly, they're good sales
people, whereas the management
are more nurturing people, more
empathetic, and they're
different skill set all
together. So I know lots of
people have been promoted into
thrust into a management
position, and they fail them
because they don't get the right
level of support and coaching,
they've got the right tools, and
they end up failing. They end up
feeling vulnerable or failing as
a manager. Then, because they
weren't given the right skills,
they end up on a pip and end up
under so much pressure. I said,
Well, no, it's the bosses, the
people of tops fault for giving
that job in the first place,
doing them today, anything to
prove that a good manager? No, I
was a good salesperson, but I
like to think I was a good
manager as well, but because I'm
a good listener, so that's a
really important thing. When you
start, you get to know I got to
know the customer. I got to know
my staff as well. So I could
transition between sales and
management quite smoothly, to be
honest, apart from the
compliance, and learn the
compliance in the background
stuff and but I treat my staff
really well as a good listener
to my staff as well. So I always
try and find out what's going on
at home as well. Try and find
out what's going on their lives
outside of work as well. You
know, it's really important to
make that, make that staff and
feel valued, and that there was
one occasion, for example, where
there was one lad, he used to
come in late every day, and
nobody had taken the time to sit
with him or find out why. They
always to slag him off and bend
his back and that he's a pain.
He's coming in late all the
time. So the branch is open at
nine o'clock, and they got to be
up and running in by nine
o'clock. So I say, right, taking
emotions out of the situation.
I've always learned, if you want
to have a difficult
conversation, take the emotion
out of it based on facts and
evidence. So he's coming late,
but I used to make a note to
make a note to it for a week or
two. When I went to the branch I
was working, I made a note to
me. I sat him down and said, I
know, what time do you have to
what's your opening hours in
working hours? He said, I gotta
be up, alright, so tell me.
Then, why did you come into work
10 past so you can't argue back
with her. Then if I had another
evidence, I said, you come late?
You would have said, No, I'm
not. Yeah, I didn't end up an
emotional thing. Emotionally got
involved. Then he was a nice guy
as well. I say to people, strip
the emotion out of the situation
and base it on evidence of
facts. And nobody can really
argue with that then. So I said,
you're telling me, but I dug
deep bugs. I'm a firm believer
in everything in life, and
something called Root Cause
Analysis. Get to the root cause
of the problem. Peel back the
layers of the onion. There's
lots of analogies for it. So I
drill drill down, drill down.
Basically, his partner was
suffering with severe
depression. They had two young
children, so he was having to
try and get the kids ready for
school in the morning, look
after his partner get to work on
time. So he was stressed to the
max, and he carried on for
months. So I just said doing
right simply, if you is too few
things we can do. We could
change your working hours from
nine to 930 start, and I'm half
an hour for lunch, and that's
what we did in the end. It
changed this guy's life.
Everybody in the branch knew
that he started Half past
nights. Rather than slagging him
off and moving behind his back,
they knew he started out by
saying, basically, right, he
starts half past nine. Now he
was half hour for lunch to make
up for lunchtime. So like he
said to me, nobody has sat to me
and taken the time to find that
information out. They all just
put me on a pip. They all just
said this and said that. They
all he was a problem employee,
if you like. But I took the time
to sit down and drill, and I
said, it's really important.
That's why you got to treat all
your staff members individually,
you know? And I think I said, I
don't think he didn't, he wasn't
doing it on purpose. There's a
reason behind something. And I
always try and look at people, I
think, right, why are they
saying that? Why are they acting
like that? And there's always a
reason, most of the times, a
reason. In behind it. I think
Mark Ackers: there's two sides
to that story. So one, you've
done an incredible job of
separating emotion to logic and
getting to the root cause. So
you've done a good job there.
But here's the problem that
we're not talking about that we
have discussed earlier. That
individual, let's give them a
name like I don't mind if you
use a fake name. What's their
name, David. So David is
suffering in silence. Why is
David not speaking up? And
again, this is the world of
sales, right? We we come into to
a sales role. We've got
pressure, pressure, pressure.
Every week. You start back at
zero, every month, every
quarter, back at zero. KPIs,
tight. But we're human beings,
as you mentioned about people in
the track, human beings, you're
gonna go home or leave the show,
whatever, go back to normal
lives. And so everyone's got
their own shit to be dealing
with. When you come into work,
we feel like we can't speak up.
We can't say, I need help. Why
is this? Why do people feel this
way? It's
andrew jenkins: fear in it. I
think it's fear, fear of
failure, fear scared if they if
their manager is not very open,
and nobody you know very open
about talking about things, you
feel scared. You're scared, I
suppose, in fear of fear of
being dismissed, fear of being
sacked, fear of being put on a
coaching plan for you, being
part of PIP, and nobody wants
that's all added stress and
pressure. And there's so much
pressure out there at the
moment, the world in general is
just a fearful world. I think
every stress, their money is a
big problem every at the moment.
And it's a tough, it's a tough
world there at the moment, I
mean, but I think, I think it's,
I think a lot more leaders and
managers and team leaders need a
lot more coaching and support. I
think to, you know, show them
the benefits of looking after
the employees, well being. Show
the tell the manager, if you
started doing this, you get x, y
and z off the back your
employees, like that boy, I had
his loyalty that after I did
that for him, I could have told
him to ask him do anything. He
would have done it for me. He
had done it for me, he worked
extra hours not being asked
because he like I think, he felt
listened to, seen and valued,
and that's all people want these
days, is feel listened to and
valued and seen, I suppose. And
he did so after just taking that
time to have that conversation,
and people say, I get it. People
don't have a difficult
conversation. I said it doesn't
have to be a difficult
conversation, you base it on
evidence fact, like targets, for
example, your target is this,
but are you coming at this? They
can't argue with that and then,
but also then find out, why is
it something going on? Why they
need more support regarding
objection handling? They need
more support around
telemarketing. They more say,
find out what is, and give that
person that support and coaching
and to be successful. Because I,
when I was a manager, it was my
whole team was successful. It
wasn't just me on my own being
successful. I got a buzz that
everybody else in that team
being successful, and I was
helping coach and nurture them.
I struggled with that for you
for a while, actually, to be
honest, because I'm I love
hitting my own personal targets.
I love being the best. And when
I was a manager for the first
year or two, my boss would say
to me, you didn't work till nine
o'clock every night, your team
have gone over five o'clock.
You're doing all the work.
You're doing all the sales. Give
them to other people. I say, No,
but nobody can do a good a job
as me. He said, I know, but
you've got to try and coach and
sail and help them to be as good
as what you are, otherwise you
get burned out. And he says, how
good a manager are you? If
you're doing more sales and your
team. What are they going to
think if you're not getting
coached or helped or support?
Guy was there rushing around,
seeing all the customers, and I
was busy, and I found it really
hard to let go, let go. I found
that really hard to try. And I'd
rather do the sales and see the
customer myself and help coach
other people. I did find it
really hard to step or not step
away completely, but I found it
tough. So I was doing more sales
than my sales people I was
hitting. I was doing more times.
Doing more. I was hitting more
sales than them, every day,
every week, every month, for the
first year, two years, probably
I say my sales matter my
management career.
Mark Ackers: I think every
manager listen to this will
resonate, because you've been a
top performer, you've been
promoted. You know what success
looks like, but now you got
across the chasm of helping
someone else fill that gap. And
you mentioned you got so at
least one. How many children
have you got? I got one boy.
He's 24 years so did you teach
him to ride a bike at some point
in his life? Yeah, a little bit
like I remember when I taught my
son last summer to ride his
bike, I had to say to at the
very beginning, you are going to
fall off. You are going to hurt
yourself, you are going to cry,
but at the end of this you will
be able to ride a bike
confidently. But we don't want
to let our kids fall off the
bike. We want to do it on grass.
When grass is really hard to
ride it, you want to ride on the
bike. It's really tough, right?
Like that analogy of you've got
to let them fail. And I think
that's the difficulty that sales
leaders have because they've
been promoted because they're
good at sales, not because
they're a good manager and and
you've got
andrew jenkins: to ego. I think
it's back to ego, isn't it? I
like being top of the league
table. I like being I like
hitting targets. I like being
top of the table. I like being
the best, to be honest, after
being sporty all my life, being
a winner, I like to be. I like
to be. It is an ego thing as
well. Letting go your ego, which
is tough, like you said earlier
on, I think not just sales
people. Every single person's
got some little ego inside them.
How big or small that is? I
think that's fine, but
everybody's got a bit of ego.
Everybody has,
Mark Ackers: and social media
is, in the last 15 years, done
nothing but exaggerate, terrible
and that need for approval, etc.
Yeah. Yeah, as I say, it comes
back down to though your
favourite talk to deliver, and I
know you like them all, but that
failure, right? And that's
difficulty, one of the things
that you've mentioned a lot,
it's almost like you were
prompted, even though you was
not, is coaching, right? Like
you spoke a lot about the impact
of coaching, here's the thing
that I know you know to be true,
but I just wanna get your hot
take on it. Most sales people,
most managers, do not get
coaching, and if they do, it's
not regular, it's infrequent.
It's too late. Why do you think
that is? And more importantly,
what impact can regular coaching
have on sales professionals and
managers? It's really important.
Coaching is
andrew jenkins: so important,
than ever. It doesn't matter if
you're a top performer. It
doesn't matter like look at all
you know, footballers out go
back to football. Cristiano,
Ronaldo as a coach. He's the
best. I think Percy, this is
subjective. I think he's the
best player, better than Messi,
but that's my opinion. That
could cause a massive debate.
But I think he is. But well, he
hasn't got a coach. Of course.
He's got a coach. Everybody,
every sportsman, a boxer, world
champion boxer, you sick. He's
got a coach. He's a full belt
World World Champion, and he's
got a coach. So sales is exactly
the same as every now and again.
You may get complacent if you've
got a growth mindset. I'm always
I crave feedback after every
talk I do, after every workshop,
whatever I do, I say to people,
I want feedback. Good and Bad,
the way I'm going to learn and
get better is not constructive
feedback, because there's some
feedback just pointless, and
there's other people who can't
give feedback. Giving feedback
is a skill as well listed as a
skill, but some people give
feedback, but no, it was. It's
not constructive. You can't take
nothing from it. So constructive
feedback. How you give the
feedback? Make sure you don't
damage somebody's confidence, or
really back to them. Give them
in a right but get that person
give you the answers. Say, how
do you think that went? I let
them tell you. And normally, if
you know if you're in a way
person or switched on, but you
know if someone hasn't gone
right or wrong, you know if it's
a sportsman as a salesperson,
you know if something's gone
wrong. And normally, people come
up with their own answers
themselves. So you get rather
than you tell him, I think you
should learn this. If you tell
somebody how to do so in the
chances of doing us continuing
to do it are slim, but if they
come up with the answers
themselves, they think they come
up the answer themselves. They
are. They're going to more
likely to do it and carry it on
then. So, yeah, so I think it's
really important to listen to
Yes, it's really, it's an
important skill
Mark Ackers: that is, yeah, it
certainly is. And look, Andrew,
I'm conscious we're coming
towards the end of our time
together. I've loved so many of
the things that we've spoken
about today, and I feel like we
share a lot of beliefs in terms
of what sales is, the importance
of coaching Ronaldo being the
best. I certainly agree with you
there. I found it a really
interesting podcast. Like, we've
had some real, like, sobering
moments, and I love how much
you've shared, but it is. It's
been sobering to sit and listen,
actually tough as the host, to
sit and listen to some of the
things that you've gone through
and and think, am I asking the
right questions? Because most
people don't open up like that,
and I really applaud you for
that, but, but then we've had
some real highs, like, I've
loved talking about the
traitors. I've loved hearing
about how you sold and got into
that world. I love what you're
doing with your with your life
now and and Andrew Jenkin
coaching, um, tell us, where can
people come to to book you and
find you, give us like all your
handles, so to speak.
andrew jenkins: Oh, here we go.
Nobody good at this sort of
thing. It's my my Instagram is
at at Andrew Jenkins, official.
My LinkedIn is Andrew Jenkins.
And then my website is www dot
Andrew jenkins.co, but I say my
Instagram is more of a fun
thing. I think it's more of a
relevancy thing. My ins, my
LinkedIn is more professional
platform. I've used that for
probably 25 years. LinkedIn in
banking, insurance. So LinkedIn
is more Yeah, most of the people
come to me through LinkedIn, to
be honest, your website as well.
But um, my website is I don't
update it all the time. They're
not very good at that sort of
thing. So my Instagram, my
LinkedIn, get updated all the
time with work I'm doing, the
things I've done recently. So
you want to see what I'm doing,
yeah, but that's they're the
most recent ones. I suppose
they're the best way to get hold
of me. My coaching style, I
think, is different. It's like,
like you just said, my coaching
is more of a storytelling.
Coaches coaching through
storytelling. So I get them to
tell me story. It's like a
general chat, and there's lots
of light bulb moments that go
off and I share my story.
They've experienced so much in
my life. I've experienced more
than most people go through
their whole lives, to be honest
you. So I like getting out and
walking and talking. I like out
walking in nature is so
important. It's so good for my
physical and mental health. So
rather than sat in a coffee shop
all the time, because I don't I
like doing a lot of coffee but
when you're helping someone a
coach or wants me to talk and
open up, I find get out in
nature and walk or go for a walk
somewhere, is much easier. The
person feels it's not so
confrontational, standing side
by side, walking with someone
and just chatting, like chatting
with a mate. It is where a sat
opposite someone, or even
driving the car, for example, is
another good thing to do. You
sat off, you know, next to
someone. I just chatting, you
end up open talking. So my
coaching style is, I try and get
out to the office and get out
somewhere and have a walk around
and chat for an hour, or two
hours is walking around. And I
find people just feel more
comfortable out in nature with a
victim, indeed, but a serotonin
and outside, they feel much
better.
Mark Ackers: You sounds like
what you've identified is the
key is to get people to speak,
to start that conversation. Most
people don't, and it sounds like
you've done that exceptionally
well. And I do, I encourage
anybody to reach out to you. Try
and attend one of your talks,
try and come to one of your
sessions, and I can confirm you
are very responsive on LinkedIn.
You've always replied to me very
quickly, and it's been an
absolute pleasure, Andrew,
having you on the podcast. I
hope you've enjoyed coming on,
because I imagine this is quite
different to the podcast you've
been doing since the traitors,
right? I imagine it's quite
different. So
andrew jenkins: it's very good,
very, very professional.
Actually, it's very good. And
I've enjoyed it. Thoroughly
enjoyed you're a nice guy.
You've created a safe space for
me, which is really important.
That's the problem with people
with mental health. People don't
talk. Then got a safe space.
They feel people, you know, they
feel judged or something. So I
think it's really important
somebody's struggling with
mental health, especially in the
workplace. No, be there for that
person. Don't walk past them. If
you know somebody's struggling
and work with it. They have
their target. They're going
through a separation or divorce,
don't walk past it. And I get
why people do. They don't.
They're scared, they want they
don't trigger people. But I say
to people, I'd rather come I'd
rather you talk and I'm awkward
conversation now, or you cry and
come to your bedside in six
months time, or, even worse,
your funeral. I'd rather you
know, don't walk past it like if
you notice Dave, for example,
started coming in late every
day. He don't have his lunch.
Shortly that he stopped eating
his lunch, you think, just say
to him, Hey, Dave, I noticed you
started coming in late. Is
everything okay? Just have that
conversation. And a lot of the
time when people are struggling,
all they want is and you listen
to them. They want somebody to
them, they want somebody to sit
in the trenches and listen to
them. They don't want fixing.
They don't want answers. They
want something to listen to. So
I say, don't, you know, don't
how many, I think a lot of these
suicides out there couldn't be
prevented if somebody had a safe
space. So that's really
important. So don't walk past
Mark Ackers: anybody who's
struggling really. Well, let's
make that call to action for
everybody listening. Why don't
you just text one person today
and ask how they are, right?
That's the start point. That
would be an amazing place to
finish. But I have to ask you
one more question, and it's the
last one I wrote down second
mountain ages ago. What is your
second mountain? And let's end
there. Want to
andrew jenkins: change the
world. I want BEC I want. I want
to close my eyes my deathbed.
Hopefully that'll be a long time
away knowing I made a difference
this planet. I made an impact on
the planet. I've saved lives. I
had a message of somebody, a 16
year old boy last week,
actually, he said he's thinking
to take was thinking of taking
his own life. We decided not to
do it because you see my videos,
and I turn my life around a
motivation. So when I get
messages like that, and that's
quite a regular thing, I get
message of people all the time.
So you know what? I'm helping
them, and that's what keeps me
going. So I'm tired when I'm
stressed and feel down, I want
to quit, and I've had hard work
things like that keep me going.
So I just want to help people.
BEC, I want to help support you
and give back to people. I want
people to struggle in silence
like I did for
Mark Ackers: 24 years. Really,
I've got no doubt you will
continue to impact and change
many people's lives, and I've
loved the chat. I do say this
quite regularly on every
podcast. Oh, I wish we had more
time. I do. I wish we had more
time. There's loads more. But
what I'm confident now is I'll
probably see you at an event
again, like we did in Leeds, and
maybe next time we'll grab a
beer. But thanks for coming, and
you've been amazing. Thanks.
Becca, thank you, mate. You.