Welcome back, everyone, to 101 questions at Church Planters Ask. I'm your host, Danny Parmelee. And today, we have a special guest with us, Daniel Yang, who's the executive director. Is that your right title? Executive director of Director.
Daniel Yang:Director.
Danny Parmelee:Director. I'll I'll call you executive director. Mean, you're you're an executive. You you do a lot. So Maybe you
Daniel Yang:know something I don't know. I don't know.
Danny Parmelee:Of the SEND Institute. And today, we're gonna be answering the question, should I become duly affiliated or having, you know, multiple affiliations, multiple networks as a church plant? And maybe kind of we'll start off by just, well actually Daniel, why don't you share just a little bit about yourself and kind of what you do and what the Send Institute is?
Daniel Yang:Sure, yep. So I lead the Send Institute here, office out of the Wheaton College Billy Graham Center. It's a partnership between the North American Mission Board. So speaking of affiliation, it's a partnership between two entities, North American Mission Board and the Wheaton College Billy Graham Center. Part of that, I was a church planner in Toronto.
Daniel Yang:We planted a church that planted a few other other churches. I'm also currently doing a PhD in intercultural studies at Trinity, and really, man, I just love seeing people, take their next steps in this journey of being a missionary, for the kingdom of God. And so that's how I try to live my life and, hope to inspire others to do the same. So thanks for having on, Danny.
Danny Parmelee:Yeah. That's great. Okay. So let's talk about this. Before we talk about dual affiliation, just affiliation in general, I think it's becoming less and less common for church planners to just go totally independent, but I just I I honestly cannot see a reason to plant alone these days.
Danny Parmelee:I mean there's just organizations, so I don't know even if you have some stats for that, or if you were to even just say off the top of your head, if someone wanted to plant a church, what's the number of organizations or how have you even seen that kinda change from what year did you plant and if you've seen that kind of like grow over the Yeah.
Daniel Yang:I think the the the decades where we saw a lot of nondenominational church planting probably was late eighties, nineties, and maybe early two thousands. So about that twenty year year span. Part of it is prior to that, denomination still had a strong, emphasis. They still had, you know, probably up until about the sixties or seventies, they had a really good reputation. You know, once you get to '70, eighties, that's where the, reputation for denomination started to decline a little bit.
Daniel Yang:And that's especially mainline because they started losing a lot of people. And and then that's where you get a lot of the Gen Xers that were form former disgruntled youth pastors that, you know, planted their churches and then started all these other nondenominational networks like, you know, acts twenty nine or ARC or whatever. A lot of these leaders that started these networks were probably loosely affiliated or non denominationally planting, and their networks began to reflect a little bit of their own background as well. That's not to say that all the networks that emerged during that time were were not denomination affiliated, but it's interesting because later, the denomination started to learn from the multi or interdenominational networks and started cop not copying, but learning and adapting some of the things that they saw from those networks. And they started developing, like, denominationally, you know, affiliated networks.
Daniel Yang:And so I think really, right now, I think you're right. I don't know if, it is become, you know, as attractive to be that, maverick, you know, out there on their own, whether it's a, you know, male or female, you know, getting at it on their own because there's just so much, more resources and camaraderie that comes with, planting with the network or denomination. And I just think that over forty years of church planting systems, they've gotten a lot better, and so church planters feel more supported. And, you know, I've I've never I never knew this narrative, but I know when I talked to some of the church planters who planted in eighties and nineties, I knew that for a lot of them, they planted it because it wasn't because church planting was a cool thing. It was because in some ways, they couldn't get hired by another church, or they felt like that rogue missionary that didn't fit in with their group.
Danny Parmelee:Yeah, that's great. You point out something that I think is really important where you were talking about denominationalism, kind of, I don't wanna say dying out, but from a cultural perspective, congregation members used to be like, okay, I grew up Methodist, so if I move to a new town, I'm going to look for a Methodist church or if I grew up And when you started to have that decrease, then there was less of a reason for a church planner to say, hey, I'm affiliated, you know, with this group. And so they kind of went it went went alone, kinda did the whole, you know, Maverick, cowboy type of thing. But now there are just so many different resources that it goes beyond just kind of that name recognition. And most, church, you you know, people that are looking for a church, they're not looking for those denominational things and a lot of the networks aren't requiring you to, you know, say the name, you know, that you're a part of even if they are actually denominationally, kind of affiliated.
Danny Parmelee:So so I agree with you. I I just remember when I so 02/2004, kind of starting that journey, there didn't seem to be as many denominations. Now you go to an exponential and it's literally Mhmm. Halls of just all of the different networks, to be able, to do that. So I actually wanna talk a little bit about, you know, I hate the term I hated the term as a lead pastor, church shopping.
Danny Parmelee:Mhmm. But is there is there such a thing as affiliation or network shopping? You know, I think I know the answer to that question.
Daniel Yang:Sure.
Danny Parmelee:But I don't know if you wanna speak to that at all.
Daniel Yang:Well, you know, let me let me just tell you, Danny. I just did a webinar last week with a guy named, Len Tang, and Len leads the church planning initiative out of Fuller Seminary. And they just developed, an online portal called plantermatch.org that is which these are his words. They're they made it to be the eHarmony of church planters. And so so there is a thing.
Daniel Yang:There is a thing as affiliation shopping or network shopping. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think it's important for somebody who feels like God's given them a dream, a missionary dream, to find the support network that, you know, best fits them in their philosophy of ministry. I I do think some of the things that we do need to be careful of, and this is kinda harkening to what you were saying about church membership and and, you know, church shopping, is that I do think planters have a should have a a sense of personal integrity to be transparent about all of the networks that they are in relationship with. And by and large, I think most church planters do.
Daniel Yang:You know, they're very clear about, you know, this is my first affiliation and this this is my secondary affiliation. I think, you know, some of the things that do concern me sometimes, and really it's this, it boils down to a person who feels like this is this particular network can give me more money, and so I'm I'm going to be, you know, with them for three years. That doesn't happen a lot, but you and I know people that we could name that that does happen. And so those are the things that do kinda concern me because when you find a network or a a denomination, it should, in a way, feel like this is a little bit of a family for you. It should feel like a family.
Daniel Yang:You know? This is your first line of defense for your your the care for your family in a lot of times, especially if maybe you don't necessarily have a a sending church right out the gate. And then secondly is there's a there should be a mission and history about that network or denomination that you feel proud to promote, that you feel like you are a part of, you know, the next line in the legacy of this movement. Because ultimately, it's it's not about one particular church, one particular church planter. It really is the move of God that God is doing, and God moves in multiple streams, in multiple networks.
Daniel Yang:And so a planter should feel pretty comfortable that they're continuing on the legacy of that movement.
Danny Parmelee:That's great. One of the things that you said, because I just I so agree with this, that if you're a planter and you're shopping from a very consumeristic, what can I get, you will probably get yourself in some trouble if you're especially if you're shopping just for money? Who's gonna give you the most money, the most grants? And I remember even Emily and I, as we were discerning that, there was an organization that gave about double than, than what we were expecting from the from Converge, the group that, you know, that we ended up planting with. She's like, I think I wanna be part of that denomination.
Danny Parmelee:Yeah. Oh, hold on a second here, there's a few theological things. And the other thing is you use the word family, sometimes I use the word tribe, both I think are really good, but encouraging church planners say, pick a tribe that you want to run with long term. So again, not just who's gonna give me the most amount of money, the least amount that I need to give back to them over in the next three years, but if you're to kind of peer into the future, who's the group of people like, yes, I want to be around this group of people and not only what can I get from them, but what can I give? Are are there gonna be opportunities for you to have platform, for you to be able to use you know, your gifts and abilities to kind of, you know, feed into the movement instead of just what are the different things that you can get from it.
Danny Parmelee:So the other thing that I want you to talk about a little bit that you said, is primary and secondary, because you know, we haven't even really hit the question, you know, head on. First of all, maybe I'll just say this, I think it's totally okay to be single affiliated. There's there's maybe even some advantage to that. So you have a group, maybe you have a history with them, maybe you have, know, you're just really in love with the mission and what what they're doing, and that's where you wanna put all of your eggs in that basket. I think that is a a great thing.
Danny Parmelee:But it leads us to the second question, well what if there are kind of two of them and I can't really pick and they're kind of offering maybe some similar things, but you had mentioned primary and secondary, speak to that a little bit more.
Daniel Yang:Sure. So if I'm planting denominationally, I would typically consider my denomination as my primary affiliation. And and the reason for that is it's usually your denomination that is theologically aligned with what you're you're you're affiliating with. They've also probably provide, in some ways, the credentialing process that you need. You know, again, you you may plant in a very autonomous fashion where you're not ordained or you're not even, you know, certified to be, you know, a clergy for tax purposes.
Daniel Yang:But for most planters, you know, they are looking for a credential pathway to be a pastor planter, and that usually is gonna be probably a denomination or a denomination like structure. And so ideology is a big part of that. We're not even talking about money at that point. We're just talking about, like, I feel like this is the movement that God has used to shape me theologically, to shape me in terms of tradition, you know. And so you're you're not gonna be somebody who is planting a church that does immersion only, but then you wanna plant with the PCA.
Daniel Yang:Right? I mean, it just there is a a continuity between the tradition and then the the expression of church that you have. So that's what I would consider to be your primary affiliation because at the end of the day, for for many, maybe not everybody, but for many, this would be the agency that holds your credentialing. And so and and I think that's important because, you know, as much as what we're doing is a spiritual kingdom oriented endeavor, there's also, you know, legal responsibilities. And not every structure is like the Southern Baptist or or Baptist structures.
Daniel Yang:Many, many church church plants still have a bit of a hierarchical structure that they have to work inside of. And then in terms of your secondary affiliation, I think this sometimes tends to be networks that are philosophically aligned. And so they might be a little bit more focused on, you know, missional churches or they may be a little bit more focused on, you know, urban churches or rural churches for that matter. But you know that there's an affinity base. There's a philosophical commonality between what God's called you to do and what that network is doing.
Daniel Yang:And they feel a sense of, accountability to you, but not maybe not in the same way that a denomination would. I I think what what becomes almost difficult in almost, you know, very few situations would allow for a church plan to affiliate dually with two denominations. I know I know it happens, but it's a very special arrangement at times, and, those relationships are made very clear. And in some ways, those denominations are probably pretty compatible, in some ways. Yeah.
Daniel Yang:But largely, that second affiliation is probably a network of relationships and it they're probably not gonna credential you. And then probably, you may, in some ways, give back to that network, but it's probably not gonna be at the same level or commitment that you would with your first affiliation.
Danny Parmelee:Yeah, that's great. I think even just some examples. So, know, being part of Converge, especially when Acts 29 was new, we had a number of our church plants that were dual affiliated in that way because a majority of their funding and their long term commitments were all kind of connected to Converge as their primary. Acts 29 became kind of their secondary because it was exactly what you were saying, there's that philosophical kind of that, you know, like, hey, this is this is we identify. Yes.
Danny Parmelee:We wear plaid and smoke cigars and are reformed and, you know, okay. Maybe I maybe I joke a little bit too much
Daniel Yang:2 thousands. Yeah.
Danny Parmelee:And and also to that point, and this is this helps to kind of draw this point out, is that acts 29 is functioning more like a denomination than they were before. And by that, I just mean the amount of structures and requirements. So it's actually a little bit harder to dual affiliate
Daniel Yang:Sure.
Danny Parmelee:Now. And and and again, just not nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that that's how they've kind of grown and matured. And then you've got other examples of networks like NewThing, where it's like, yes, they want you to maybe have your primary and that they're secondary because they're looking, you know, very specifically within like a city Mhmm. Regional context to be able to do that, sir.
Danny Parmelee:So I think that's one of the great things for church planters to really evaluate to see what are some of those requirements, and at what point does it have a diminishing return to it. And that's where I've seen some planters get in trouble where they, you know, dual or triple affiliate and each group is expecting something back. So you had mentioned giving or we expect you to be at these monthly meetings. We expect you, you know, to come to these conferences. And pretty soon, the church planter is just sending money at conferences and at pastor meetings all week long and they're not even doing ministry anymore, they're just trying to keep all these relationships kind of going.
Danny Parmelee:That's where they just have to kind of have some evaluation if there's diminishing return. The other thing is having networks, or having the church planner make sure, and you had alluded to this earlier on, that there's communication between the primary and the secondary, so I don't know if you wanna speak to that a little bit, or what that might look like, or why that is so helpful.
Daniel Yang:Sure. Yeah. And I think in some ways, this is primarily the church planters responsibility to be clear. This is in some ways a matter of integrity, that if you're planting, with a denomination that, first and foremost, your your your your commitment to them should probably be at a a level that you and they are both comfortable with. So if you either one of you have unmet expectations or unrealistic expectations, then I think that's that that could be difficult.
Daniel Yang:And then I think in some ways, also, you have to be able to to to to verbalize to your denomination, your commitment level to the secondary network. Because I you know, all denominations, we know for for the most part that their planters may affiliate with secondary networks. And so it's not a matter of if. It's just a matter of how is that happening. And for the most part, most denominational leaders, I mean, you you you work for a denomination.
Daniel Yang:I I work for denomination. We're all for that. And we Mhmm. We just we really celebrate that because we know that no one entity can be all things to everyone. And so but at the same time, you know, you just have a a clear set of expectations so that you know, number one, not to do too much to overwhelm the church planter, but also number two, you do also there's a sense in which you want church planters to be able to give back, you know, not necessarily just financially, but time, emotional, coaching wise back into their own into their own family.
Daniel Yang:And that's just, you know, in some ways, that's the OICAS system that the church is built around. And, you you know, that doesn't that's not too different from the denomination as well. But I'll I'll tell you probably, Danny, the the thing that's probably most important in terms of church planter transparency. I think, ultimately, at the end of the day, it has to come down to a genuine sense which you which you feel like God has actually led you into a relationship. I I don't wanna hyper spiritualize it.
Daniel Yang:I I don't wanna make it, you know, sound so mystical. But, you know, I I know planters who maybe are less prayerful about these decisions. It's a very pragmatic transaction. And I do think that in some ways, God will call you to affiliate or to partner with certain entities, and you should feel a level of conviction. And I think as long as you feel that level of conviction, then you can truthfully talk to, you know, all of the entities involved in a way that is, you know, with with a clarity of conscience and integrity.
Daniel Yang:And I think that's it's important for you to know what it is that God has called you to and why why is it that tribe so that you don't end up being, you know, three, four down years down the road and having questions of, you know, why did I make that decision? So I think that's really important to feel the the call of God in your life.
Danny Parmelee:That's absolutely amazing. I love that. Daniel, if people want to read some more of your stuff, I know you've got some blog, why don't you just share how people find you and find some of your stuff that you have written?
Daniel Yang:Yep, So I mean, all of all of the stuff that we're writing and research is at sendinstitute.org. Ed and I do a podcast called StetsorLeadership.com, StetsorLeadership Com, and that's something that we started in the midst of COVID. And then Peyton Jones also, he and I have a podcast at Exponential called Frontline. So, yeah, either of those three outlets.
Danny Parmelee:Awesome. Well, Daniel, thank you so much, for being on the show today, and thank you everybody for listening. And remember, if you have questions, you can head over to the blog at churchplantersask.com. And until next time, keep asking those questions.