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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matt Brown. The podcasts were pastor and author Matt Brown. debriefs your questions about Christianity and current issues shaping our culture. Thank you for listening and enjoy the show. Hey everybody, this is Tammy Brown and I am super honored to be able to guest host the debrief podcast today with my husband Matthew Stephen Brown. Yes, and our executive creative director and one of our dearest friends Melody workman today. Hey guys. Hey, thanks for having me. I'm glad you're here. Okay, so before we get into these questions and we have some pretty good questions today that I think are going to be super meaningful for the listeners to hear, but I do have a question about this weekend. So Mel, this weekend, you taught five. Five, what I'm not. Time says five. You taught services. You taught all five services here at Hunter Park Services is the word and Matt was super curious because in your other part of your life, you're also a worship leader. And so gifted in that way. And so he was super curious. I wonder which is more exhausting teaching five times or leading worship five times. So what's this answer? Yeah, the answer is teaching because when you're leading worship and you get tired, you have a whole band of there. That are like, you guys take it away. I'm going to just sing off my acre. You know what I mean? Whereas you're teaching and you've got to carry the whole thing for that whole time. So they both are tired of me when I'm finished leading worship. I'm physically really tired. It's a lot more moving and teaching my voice was my voice was tired and my energy levels sort of dropped. Yeah. So I did see you after your fourth service this weekend. Yeah. And I was like, you're right. I'm just came back here. And Luke Don't Great Luke had protein for me after the 10 o'clock. And I felt like that was like, I needed that. So that helped get through. I've just snacked all the way through. Did you ever, um, did you ever feel like did I already say that? Did you get lost in your message? Yeah. Yeah. The interesting thing though was what helped me with that was the new faces in the room. Okay. So like, I'm like, I'm looking at her. I haven't seen her before. So I know I haven't said this before. Okay. Which was just I probably should do that. Sometimes, especially, you know, and it's not actually Tammy five times it's six because you have to count the recording message. Yeah. On Thursday. Yeah. I get I get I get lost or confused or I get ahead of myself. I say a joke or a point too soon. That did happen. And I was like, oh, there's such a vulnerability to it as well. And not that both ways of leading don't have a spiritual component. But there is a just like a such a spiritual component to the teaching. And I think this weekend in particular for you. Although we've had women teach at sandals before you're the first time we've had somebody that's on our teams from within our home. And so I know there was a lot of vulnerability going into that as well. But it was such a good weekend. Thank you. Um, which was great too. I was just really honored and humbled and grateful for the lots of people that came up and shared with me afterwards. I think it's just it was a beautiful weekend. It was really sweet. Okay. Our first question. We do have some questions about the idea of women teaching in the church. But our first question is actually not it's from joy from Riverside and her question is this. I think that God has been talking to me through my dreams, but I don't get what they mean exactly. My first dream was God being at my door, a bright light at my door. And there being a whole line of people waiting to get prayer from him. The next dream was me hugging him and then waking up. And the last dream was God being on top of a mountain, watching the people below in a cave drowning from water, caving in or the people on top of the cave caught on fire crying. Whoa. I'm not sure what exactly he's talking to me specifically and I'm not sure if he wants me to make the last dream known being the last days coming could be really close. Do you have any insight or wisdom you can share to help me interpret these dreams. Yeah, so I actually met this person joy at the grocery store. And he asked me all of these questions while I was getting my groceries. And I said, I said no submit this to the debrief and we will answer them. And so, you know, like I think a lot of our listeners, the first two questions, I was kind of like yada yada yada and then the last dream was like, whoa. So here's my thoughts. So the first thing, you know, I'm going to add to this that joy didn't mention this is she said that because I want to make sure that she's clear on this, she said, I don't read my Bible a lot. And so what I said to you in the parking lot is what I'm going to say to all of our listeners that needs to change. So dreams and visions are great, but you cannot have them apart from the word of God. So I think the word of God helps us interpret and understand our dreams to make sure it wasn't just like lasagna. It was actually the word of the Lord. And so I think that the, and I'm glad that she submitted these questions because I actually heard her a little bit differently when she shared this to me when we were in the parking lot, I was actually trying to rush and get home because Tammy forgot something that has pretty. Yeah, it's pretty useful. So, so I, it's a thank you joy for submitting this question. So it says, I think that God has been talking to me through my dreams. Absolutely. God speaks through dreams and he speaks to people. He does this all the time. My thought on that is it's the best time for God to speak to us because we can't get out of the way. And we can't be distracted by anything else. She said, but I don't know exactly what they mean. That's the problem with dreams. You know, what, what is a dream? What is lasagna? What is the word of the Lord? She said, my first dream was God being at my door, a bright light at my door. You know, I experienced God in a similar way in a vision at night from this. There'll be a whole line of people I didn't have this part waiting to get prayer from him. And what I would just say is is joy, I would interpret this to me and that you've got a front row seat to God that God is pursuing you. And I would just say, okay, there's a call in my life. And I need to get this right immediately. The next dream was me hugging him and then waking up. And I would just say, that's the intimacy of God. God is pursuing you. God wants a relationship with you. You know, you said you don't know where your Bible is. Look, God is inviting you to know him the way we hug God is through his word because he hugs us through his word. The last dream was a little scary. My last dream was being on top of a mountain. That sounds great. Watching people blow in a cave drowning from water caving in or people on top of the cave being caught in fire and getting heat blisters, but not dying. This sounds a lot like revelation, not the drowning part, but the blistering part. The book of revelation speaks of the end times, people suffering and wishing and wanting to die, but they cannot. And so I think that that's interesting that you had a dream like this. And you said, I'm not sure exactly why he's talking to me specifically. I would say because he loves you and he's calling you. And I'm not sure that he wants me to make the last dream known. Oops, we just did. So being that the last days could be really close. Absolutely. We've been in the last days for 2000 years. Jesus could come tomorrow. He could come today. He could come before this episode releases. And so do you have any wisdom or insight that you can share to help interpret these dreams again, get in the word of God, get in a small group, get in the church because clearly God has identified you as someone that he wants to speak to. And I don't think that these are just random dreams. I think these are a call by the Holy Spirit trying to draw you in. But again, with dreams, which part is God, which part is our subconscious? You know, I mean, that's an area where it's very, very difficult to understand, but I would just say joy. The Lord is speaking to you. The Lord is calling you to him personally. So here's what I would say. The only way that we can hug God personally is through Jesus. That's the only way. Jesus is the only way that we have access to God. And so what I would encourage you to do is just to repent of your sins, place your faith and trust in Jesus and say, God, draw me close and he will. And so for those listening, you know, Jesus said, no one can come to me unless the father draws them. And that's what's happening to you, Joyce. The father is drawing you. He's pulling you in. But as God pulls us in, we still have to make a choice. Yeah. It's not enough for God to invite. We have to answer. So Jesus tells stories about letters going out, invitations going out, but they are rejected. And so Jesus tells them go out into the highways, into the hedges, into the fields and go and find people that will come because I want my house to be full. And so everyone is invited, but few people answer the invitation. And so joy, I hope that you will answer the invitation of Jesus. And I know when we met you were super emotional and I apologize. I just, and let me just say this to everyone out there who encounters me out in public. Look, look, I have a life too. I have things that I have to get to. And if I stopped every time somebody needed me to stop, I would never get anywhere. And so joy, I just want you to know that you matter. I'd probably get upset with my dinner ingredients. And what did I tell you when I got home? I said the weirdest thing just happened to me. And not that that doesn't normally happen because weird things do happen to me all the time. But, you know, joy, thank you for a couple things. Thank you for being real in the parking lot and saying, hey, you know, sit, are you Matt Brown? Which thank you for not confusing me with Kevin Bacon. I appreciate that. So, so my favorite one was a guy in a grocery store asked me, he said, he says, anyone ever told you you look like Matt Brown and I said, I am any drop to groceries. And the 16 year old behind the counter goes, who are you? And I go, no one important. That's not true. Well, yeah, I'm important to thank you. Thank you for the beloved of God. Yeah, I was going to say when you came home and shared that one of my first thoughts was like that, that is a really heavy weighted kind of a dream to have. Yeah, but it was such a reminder that there is a spiritual reality that awaits. So it's like we want to teach and preach so much about the love of God, but there, there is a judgment coming at revel, revelations, speaks of. And it's interesting that I think God's doing her personal view a personal reminder joy if you're listening. How sweet that is and such an opportunity that is. And that maybe the part of that, what that might be speaking is God drawing you into yourself, you are back into him yourself. And then I mean, the ripple effects of that in the world around you and the people you know of you just being a reminder of the importance of being right with God and knowing God and sharing that and there's nothing that gets us more right or share something more than when we believe it for ourselves, the whether it's a product we use, like this is the best. Yeah, here like when you believe something to be true because you've experienced it and I feel like you share it with people and I think God gave her this experience. That's that's maybe not just for her, but to share with others. Yeah. Okay, our next question comes from Jonathan. Jonathan is from Reno Valley and it says this, do your past or math. I want to say thank you for teaching on such a controversial topic. I know that it's not easy and I appreciate your hard work to see out the truth of the scripture and teach it to all of us. In your recent she her message on the weekend of April 29th and 30th, you talked about the word prophesying and not know exactly what this gift is. In addition, you said that when you're preaching teaching that sometimes you're also prophesying and this is confusing, can you clarify the definition of prophecy and preaching slash teaching. So the best definition of prophecy is in 1 Corinthians chapter 14 where Paul says it is for edification encouragement and I forget the third word. I don't have it in front of me. Can you guys Google that that's 1 Corinthians chapter 14. I'm going to guess it's probably good works. I don't know. So I don't know the translation. If you guys can find that so I should have had that available Jonathan. Sorry for the question, but so it's for edification and encouragement. So what Paul's talking about there in 1 Corinthians 14 is the difference between speaking in a tongue and speaking in the gift of prophecy. And so tongue is something tongues is something either a language, someone either an actual language that someone else speaks or a heavenly language depending upon your theological background. That needs interpretation that people don't understand prophecy is something that does not need in interpretation, but does need clarification which we can can talk to. So I'm going to go to the 3 words. Okay, so comfort is last one consolidation. I think is yes, the trust. Yeah, so comfort. So those are the 3 things. So so prophetic word is is a word to the body of Christ. The difference between it and teaching is so when I'm teaching I'm teaching you about scriptures. When I'm speaking prophetically, I'm speaking directly to you from God. And that's the difference. So, and so what do I mean by that? You know, when I go up to preach, I am teaching it is the primary purpose is teaching. There are moments, Jonathan, where it's not me instructing, but God is speaking. I feel these moments, I experience these moments, people experience these moments where God borrows my mouth to speak to our hearts. That is not what that is not what is happening the entire time I'm preaching. God is not responsible for my stupidity. God is not responsible for when I get it wrong. You know, preaching is an imperfect practice. As are the use of all the gifts. It's imperfect. And so what we need to know, what you need to know, Jonathan is that when, when prophecy is spoken, it is I am saying in the name of God. And that's why then the church though has the responsibility to evaluate it and say, okay, it is this in accordance with doctrine. Is this an accordance with tradition? Is this in accordance with how our church understands and practice our faith? So the prophet doesn't just to get to stand up and say, thus says the Lord and everybody goes, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, that's how you become a cult. Then the church's responsibility. And I would say specifically in 1 Corinthians 14 and in 1 Timothy 2, it is the men of the churches, their responsibility to handle doctrine. And that is the role of the elder and the overseer to make sure that what is being said is in fact in accordance with the understanding of scripture. And so I realize that's confusing and, and again, I think it's confusing for me. So just know this Jonathan, when I was in seminary, I went to a Baptist seminary that taught that prophecy is preaching. So I would disagree with that. I think that a prophetic utterance is something that is when the body of church is gathered together. And this would, in our church, would more than likely happen in a small group, where someone would speak prophetically over you and say, here's a word of encouragement. Uh, here's a word of challenge. Here's a word of comfort to you. You know, I think about specifically when we were in group with the Bogen writes, and this is actually in my book coming up, I'm super excited. They were trying to adopt a child, and they were specifically going to adopt a child like you from Ethiopia. I'm pointing to Melody Tammy and I never tried to adopt a child from Ethiopia and Ethiopia closed its borders. And they said, no more children will be adopted. And I said, I mean, I said this, and this was not me. This was the Lord. I said to Beck and Andrew, they were crying. It was, it was so dessert. It was a grand deal. And I said, what makes you think God needs Ethiopia to give you your Ethiopian child? Well, okay. And then right after I said it, I was like, you know, like, okay, that's really scary. And then a few weeks later, they had their Ethiopian child. Yeah. Because God was already working. God had spoken. God had said you're going to have this child. And God was already moving. And here's what they did. No, his child was already in America. So God was already moving. And so that's a prophetic word of encouragement, a strengthening. And so what they needed is they needed to hear God say, hold on. Don't give up. God does not need Ethiopia to deliver what he's promised to you. Yeah. You know, just like Mary, you know, you will have a child. There's a prophetic utterance spoken to her. And you don't need a husband to produce this child because the Holy Spirit will come upon you. Yeah. And so this happens. And so Jonathan, I realized that this is confusing. And so what I would say is that's intentional. Prophecy and teaching is confusing. When is it teaching? When is it prophecy? I don't always know. But, um, and let me say this about prophecy and smog. You may have, like I didn't, I had no expertise on adoption. I probably knew maybe second only to tell you a small group. The least about adoption because we weren't going through the process. Someone like humility. You could have spoken into this within area of expertise. I had no expertise. That's where prophecy comes in. We're borrowing God's intelligence and God's word and God's foresight of the future to speak into our reality. And what I would say is it's, you know, it's something that needs to be done very, very carefully. Yes. Like whenever you speak for the Lord, man, if you're wrong, you know, the Old Testament says we get to kill you. Yeah. So, uh, which is, well, it has such a disservice to the, to the bottom. Well, like I think specifically of a woman in our church who lost her dad. And someone in the church spoke to her and said, the Lord told me your dad will live. And he died. And so, you know, was there a follow up, uh, hey, I was wrong. Right. You know, so when you, when there needs to be deep repentance when we prophesy, and we speak in the name of the Lord and we're wrong. And that's why Paul says that the spirit of the prophet is subject to the person prophesying. Like you, it's not this utterance that we just blurred out. Like it's uncontrollable. We get to think about it. We get to evaluate it before we speak it. Yeah. And, um, you know, I'm very, very careful to say thus says the Lord. Yes. I say I feel like God is saying I think God would say I feel God's leading me because I've been wrong. I've been wrong before and good, well-meaning Christians have been wrong. So, um, so here's Mel where I think you prophesied in this week's teaching. And I've heard this over and over and over again. It was your statement about the good thing versus the God thing. So I felt like that was, that was downloaded straight from God. And I've had friends from all over the country literally text me that sentence and go, ooh, that was God. So can you kind of expand on that? Yeah. And I'm not saying everything else was junk in your message. You gave us a lot of teaching. And then there, then I felt like that was a word from the Lord. That was a prophetic word that God gave you right in your suffering. Well, the first thing I was going to say is that even in the Bible when people do prophesy, there is a weightiness to it. And even in the story of Abigail, she prophesied. She says to David, when God makes you leader of Israel, right? How did Abigail know it wasn't King yet? No. No. And so you carry that with weightiness and you don't prophesy things that are in contradiction to God's work. God's not going to give you a word that contradicts what's in his word. So that's why Christians sometimes, you said a long time ago, one of the most dangerous things in the world is a moron with the Bible verse. And so that's really accurate. There's a lot of Christians who take God's word and prophesy and they're all wrong and then they make a mess. But the good God thing was definitely a moment in my own journey where I was angry with God and and actually in my anger, someone sent me Romans 828. Trying to encourage me, which I appreciate, but we know all things work together for good to them that love God and are called according to his purpose. And in their effort to try to comfort me, which I appreciated, I basically said, this isn't good. Right. None of this is good. None of this feels good. This is not any of the good things that I had marked out for myself. And I just got real with God about how angry I was that he promised good. This didn't feel good. And I really felt, you know, we talk all the time about being real with ourselves, God and others. God is not afraid to be real with us either. And so he in that moment where I was just lamenting and kind of venting to him, which he's also not afraid of about this not being good. He just asked me that question, has your good become your God? Have the good things I've given you become the objects of your worship. And of course, I was like, no, but then I started thinking about it because we can conjure up a lot of images about what worship is. But worship is really what's captured the attention and affection of our heart. And so when I started thinking about all of the good things that I have that I'm grateful for and I said in the message, it's not wrong to want good things. No, we're normal, like we're human. It's wrong to worship them. And so we have to come to a place and God is very good at bringing us to a place where the good things that we have that we're experiencing. Either fall away, change, don't end up the way we thought they would. And the question then is, do I still believe God is good, even though this isn't good. And even as some people were talking to me, you know, some mom came up to me and she said, I think I worship my kids. And I said, and your kids make it terrible. We are all struggling so much with allergies today. Thank you, God, for this rain, but also all of us. A few here as sniffling. We are sneezing. We're being moved by the smell of us or right allergies. But that's just that's just the reality. We can take anything that's good and that can become the object of our worship. And God, you know, is speaking to us saying that will eventually fail you. May not fail you today. May not fail you tomorrow. It will eventually fail. And there is a thing that kind of shocks us when it fails us because we're just like, but it's so good. It's a good thing. Make a stumble, but it can't anything that takes that I've got like makes us that. I had a question for you, Matt, in regards to the definition of prophecy because when we've talked or explored in the past about the idea of prop, you know, having the gift of prophecy. There is a truth telling. So there's like a foretelling that's sort of what you just went over, which is like speaking something that God's downloaded to you. And that's just a truth for people, but that does lean into that there's a truth telling component to it. That I think people have like part of the teaching preaching from my understanding. So this is why I want you to correct me and welcome to Matt and I is at home table talk everybody. Is if you guys need a mediator. And this idea of like part of that prop, prophesying is speaking truth. Yes. And when we're speaking truth, like you mentioned some small group examples, speaking truth into each other's lives. Part of that is saying, no, this is what true. Like you're having a hard time seeing it, but this is a truth. Can you sort of weave that component into the gift of prophecy or prophesying? Yeah, yeah. So this next week we're going to cover Hula. And so that's part of what she does is she tells King Josiah. No, it's okay. She tells King Josiah. She said, you're right. This will happen. And so she's affirming truth. She's affirming God's truth. And so, so, so where is the gift of prophecy like in Roman to eight 28. And so the gift of prophecy is to clarify what that verse means. And what that verse means is that God's God's not going to bring good out of your husband's heart attack. God is going to bring good out of all human suffering in that in the end. We will be conformed to the image of his son. And we will be saved in heaven. But you know, I remember when Hillary Clinton was at the 911 memorial, you know, just after that event. And so many young people don't remember the chaos of that event. But it was awful. And I remember Hillary Clinton saying, and I grew with what she said. She said, there's no good that can come from this. You know, losing 3,000 people in such a horrific way. This is not a moment for God works all things for good. This is a moment of lamentation. This is a moment of grieving and suffering and just saying, this is hell on earth. And as Christians, then we say, you know, but there will be a day when God makes all things new. But in this life, you know, every time I see that actor, the funny guy in started at live that skinny, he lost his dad was a firefighter in that event. Huh? Pete Davidson. You know, he was just on the news for shoving that person at the next game. Every time I see him, I just feel so bad for him because I think what might he have been like with a dad. But he doesn't have a dad because his dad ran to save us. And and and Pete Davidson's not heroic. He's kind of slimy. He's dark. He's confused. And and and again, his life has forever negatively been affected because his dad ran into save us. And so so so so is God working in the midst of that? Yeah, but Pete Davidson's always going to have that loss and that heartache and that suffering and that pain. And that is real. And we don't need to minimize that or gloss it over or put a bumper sticker on it and say, or tell him this night, I haven't happened for good. Like God's going to make that good. You know, that just doesn't. Yeah, sometimes sometimes evil, you know, is evil. And there are people feel logically that struggle with that because they say, well, good Friday, right? Is the worst day in human history and God worked it for good, but it was still evil. Right. It was still awful. It wasn't good. Jesus still didn't want to go through this. Yes, yeah, it was terrible. And and suffered and Jesus died with questions. Why? Why have you forsaken me? It was so excruciating. And so so I think that we need to speak truth to that. And so what is the role of the prophet when, you know, Melody's husband had a heart attack and somebody's stupid says that the role of the prophet is to say, Hey, back the heck up. That's not what that first means. You're using out of context. And the best thing to do when people are suffering is to sit in silence with him, not say something stupid. God needed a pretty flower. That's why you took your mom. You know, thank you. Well, and there's also this thing that we do as Christians and we really need to stop doing because we we do play like we know the mind of God. And so what is the way that God is when, when God answers our prayer one way and then someone's going through something similar and we try to encourage them by telling them that God's going to answer their prayer the same way. God may heal someone from cancer and then he may let someone die. Even when Jesus was on earth and the multitudes would come to him for healing, he didn't heal everyone. Do we understand why we don't? We don't understand why we don't understand the mind of God. And we have to come to a place at some point in our faith where we relinquish the the idea that we can understand the full mind of God. Right. That's what makes him God and us not. And at some point we have to go, I choose to trust you and I choose to surrender because you are God and I am not. And that's never fun. Most of the time it's painful, but it's necessary as we worship him because he is not us and we are not him. Yeah, one of my favorite verses, you know, because I think, you know, so oftentimes people say, well, God's in control and I always say in control of what? God isn't control of what he chooses to be in control of and you are in control of what he's placed you in control of. So these two, this brother comes to Jesus and says, tell my brother to share his inheritance with me. You know, Jesus response. He says, what does that have to do with me? Yeah, God is saying, look, that's a family dispute that you two need to work out and that has nothing to do with me. And so oftentimes we have families in our church that are praying for God to heal their family and God is saying that is for you to work out. You need to deal with that. You need to go over that and we're saying, well, God in his time and God is saying, and this is where Jews and their theology is much healthier than us as Christians. You know, Jews take the Psalms literally that the heavens is the Lord and the earth is ours. And so that they completely separate that a Jewish person would even say that the Torah is theirs. They got has given the Torah to them to understand and interpret and and to figure it out to be an Israeli is to a wrestler. We wrestle with God. Like I just made it like I'm Israeli. I'm not I'm not I have zero percent Jewish according to 23 I mean. But but we actually have to use our brains and navigate life and figure these things out. And the role of prophecy is something that can help us do that. So where is God in that especially when there isn't a direct verse right because there isn't a verse for every stupid situation that we face on in life. And so we have to be able to discern is okay, where is God in this and I got to say this. If you are a prophet, you have to get used to not being listened to because I cannot tell you how many times I've told people on a church. I would not do that. That is not what I think you need to do and they go and do it. And then they are mad at God. And I'm like, you know, I've had people sharing with me the decision they're making and I'm like this. I'm like, he doesn't hide it well. One of the reasons that you had Mel on today, Matt was because she did teach this past weekend. And there's a lot of question about that. And so these are not questions that are having behind melodies, conversations. She's a part of this. She understands the the situation of this, the history of it, the tradition of it. And so this next question does lean into this past weekend's sermon. It is from Amber of Riverside. And it says this. Those are beautiful transition by the way. Just want to mark that. Thank you. Because you know it's not. It's really beautiful. Sorry, Carrie, on I just had to thank you, Mel. Okay, Amber from Riverside says my husband and I had a really good conversation after church. This Sunday starting out good. We both agree Melody is such a gifted speaker and she delivered a great message. We would agree with that, which is part of why you're asked to teach because you do have the spiritual gift of teaching. However, we are wrestling with first Timothy to 12 where Paul does not permit a woman to teach or exercise exercise authority over men. There are other controversial passages in the Bible about women being quiet and not speaking during church. What is the line on looking at passages through the lens of the culture, the culture of the times versus reading for its literal meaning and current application. Also, what would you can or would you consider Melody to have been teaching the men of our church. A lot of questions here. So go in which direction you choose. Yeah, thank you, Amber. Which direction to choose. Thank you, Amber, for asking this question. So I kind of tackle this. I think two episodes go with Donna. And so, so they're really two prohibitive passages in scripture about women speaking in the church. So the first one is exactly what you said. Amber, first Timothy to 12. The second one is in first Corinthians chapter 14 versus I think 33 through 35. So, and again, I don't have my Bible in front of me. I actually lost my Bible. I know, I'm out. So the first time in my life, I lost my Bible. You left it in a hotel at a concert. Yeah, too many, too many hotels, too many nights. So I had to buy a Bible. Oh, that would make me so sad. It's super sad. I actually had it dated and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm super, I've had that Bible for 10 years. So I'm super bummed about it. So, so here's the thing is so. Amber, I'm super, let me just say I'm super glad that you and your husband had a really good conversation after church about this. That's super important. I also agree that Melody is a gifted speaker. That's why we had her speak. I thought she did a great message. So we're, we're tracking right there. However, we are wrestling with first Timothy to 12. And let me say this. I remember specifically we were having. When Sandals first started, I think we had like five church members. And on Thursdays, we would do Bible study time together. We would read a chapter and discuss it. And I remember I kid you not as a pastor. I was a pastor of the church. I'd never heard this verse before. So we're. We're all gathered around. And first, Timothy to 12 is one of the most difficult passages. Bizarre passages. Weird passages in scripture. And I remember Janie Wabright. We got done reading and she goes, what the heck is this? And I just remember thinking I don't know. I had no idea what to deal with it. And so here's what you need to know. So first Timothy to 12 is the specific passages that you've asked about. So I'm going to deal with that one and not the first Corinthians. Chapter 14 verses 33 to 35 passage. It says, where Paul does not permit women to teach or to exercise authority over. Men. Okay, so here's the issue. We know that women are instructed to teach in scripture. We know that women did teach. So if you go back to the message a couple of weeks ago, we have Phoebe, who's a teacher. We have Priscilla, who's a teacher. We have who am I missing? We know that women did teach. We know that women did speak. Jason has four virgin daughters. And I know that's weird. But they were not yet married. They were virgins. Jason, excuse me, Philip has four virgin daughters. Who prophesied? Who's not yet married? We know that in the book of Acts, chapter 2, they quote Joel, that when the Holy Spirit comes upon, that God will speak through women. That is one of the evidences of the coming of the Holy Spirit. Is that women will prophesy. So they did speak. So here's where I work on this. The Apostle Paul, you know, some say wrote 10, some say 13 books of the New Testament. Only two of those books that are attributed to Paul, address the prohibition of women speaking. The other book is the book of the Holy Spirit. The prohibition of women speaking. The other 11 do not mention it. So when I look at that, what I'm going to say is that women did speak, and that was the norm, that they did participate in the local church. And in Corinth and in Ephesus, there was a problem. There was something that was happening in the local church. And here's the thing that you need to know. We are reading personal letters from the Apostle Paul to real people that he knew and had a relationship with. In Corinth, the Apostle Paul pastored Corinth longer than any other church. Two and a half years. We know that the Apostle Paul personally decided Timothy. So the prohibitive pastors, here's the first thing I want you to notice, Amber. The Apostle Paul tells Timothy that women must not speak in the church. He does not tell Titus the same thing. So if I was Titus, if I was Titus, I'd be like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Why does Timothy get this instruction? And I don't get this instruction. So that's the first thing that we need to ask. Why wouldn't Paul tell Titus, excuse me, the same thing that he told Timothy? So that leads me to believe that there was a specific problem. Happening in the Ephesus church. And so the argument there makes more sense because in Romans 5, Paul doesn't bring Eve up at all. Never does he blame Eve for the sin. It is Adam, Adam, Adam, Adam. The book of Romans is more theological than what the Apostle Paul is trying to make in 1 Timothy. So it's all Adam's fault. Adam brought this sin into the world and the new Adam Jesus is going to cleanse us of this sin in the world. So then it's okay. So why Eve? Here's what I think. And we don't know. And you just need to trust me on this, Amber. I just read the Southern Baptist commentary. I downloaded it yesterday because Southern Bavits have not produced a commentary on 1 Corinthians for 25 years. Wow. And you know why that is? Because they don't like what the Bible says. And it drives me crazy. But thank God they got this guiding mark to translate it. And I bought his, and I read what is his take on these passages. Here's what the Southern Baptist, which is a conservative fundamental group who do not allow women to teach. Okay, they kicked Beth Moral. Here's what he says. There are over 20 leading commentaries, including Mark Fee. Bruce, excuse me. Bruce is Bruce Fee. Gordon Fee. There we go. Gordon Fee. And then FF Bruce, two major, major scholars who believe that women should be able to teach and preach and that these are not prohibitive passages. That's the Southern Baptist commentary. It leads with that. Yeah. So if you hold to the fact that women can not teach or speak, you're in the minority of the understanding of what the New Testament says. So Amber, I know that means nothing to you. You and your husband are having a conversation and I understand that. And I feel you, I just interviewed Dr. Bucult's who's a, what, what is he? Astrophysicist. I had him for algebra one. Okay. That's, that's my extent. So I am not an expert in all things. So I understand it. But, but here's the thing. Are we going to prohibit women from doing what we know they did in the early church because of two texts, one that may be a variant because it moves. So the Corinthian passage, sometimes it occurs in verse 33, sometimes it occurs in verse 40. Whenever you have a moving verse in the scriptures, it is to you to question every time. That is, that is the beginning of textual criticism, one, oh, one. You don't build a theology around a moving verse. My interpretation of understanding of first Corinthians 14 is it doesn't fit. I don't think it's what Paul said. I think it's a scribe inserting it because he's trying to make sense of what your question is with first time with the G 12. So here's what I think and I, and I think I said this with Donna. The church in Ephesus was the center of the cult of Artemis. Artemis was the belief in a goddess whose pastors and priests were women and to be a man to serve in, in, I'm using the word church in their temple, you had to castrate yourself. Cut off your penis and your balls. So testicles. Sorry, we have ladies here. So, so there was the complete opposite of our understanding. And that's why I think he's saying, look, the reason many to be a train charge in the church in Ephesus is because Adam was created first, not Eve. Nobody needs to know that. Who's a Christian? But if you are from the cult of Artemis. And so here's the, here's the word. So you said are not to teach or exercise authority over men. The word authority there is authentic and it is only found in the New Testament there. It is the rarest of all words in the Greek New Testament. There are about 15 words the Apostle Paul could have used for authority. He could have used courteous like Jesus does. Do not lord it over them like the Gentiles do. Do, do not dominate. You know, do not exercise authority wrongly. I think authentic should be translated dominate and this is the conversation I had with Donna a couple weeks ago. We've all met women who dominate their husbands. Who emasculate them and who sub subvert their leadership, their authority. And if you're uncomfortable leadership and authority, let's just say masculinity. They emasculate their men. That's what I think was happening in Ephesus and Timothy's a young pastor. These women are probably richer, more educated and they're extremely difficult to deal with. And so the Apostle Paul says the silence. So FF Bruce says that we should not call first Timothy, second Timothy and Titus pastoral epistles. They should be called personal letters like fine lemon. So there are things in fine lemon that make us very uncomfortable because the Apostle Paul doesn't tell fine lemon that you shouldn't have slaves. He's dealing with a specific issue. So first Timothy, second Timothy and Titus should be like fine lemon where they're not for all churches, but they address a specific situation. And the church, son of Baptist, used fine lemon to argue for slavery. And that is wrong. So I think it's a specific situation where women were dominating and women in the cult of animus did not have sex with men and did not marry and did not have children. What does Paul say? Get married. Have babies. Be quiet. So the Apostle Paul is frustrated and he deals specifically with it. Now I will say this Amber, he does tell Titus that men should be overseers and men should be elders. He does say that. The problem is like in my denomination, we don't actually have those positions. We have the role that's called senior pastor, which is kind of a made up term that we use. And so here's the thing is, Melody is operating under the leadership of our pastors and our elders and she is exercising her giftedness. You didn't decide to preach. I came to you and said, hey, would you consider doing this? So Melody did not push for this. Melody did not demand this. She did not ask for this. You actually cried when I said, hey, would you, would you consider doing this? And so she's operating, I believe, under what the Apostle Paul is saying. So here's what we need to understand. Women did teach. And not only did they teach, but Priscilla teaches a Paulus, which again, our tourmatti, our audience, you're like, who? He rivals Paul in first Corinthians. Some say I follow a Paulus. Some say I follow Paul. That's how powerful of a leader he was and he was discipled by a woman. Who, because he didn't even know about the baptism in the Holy Spirit. So he had some, he was missing some things. Could I say about just the idea of like circle back right to what you said, if you came to Melody, I would say that as, as you've watched Melody's life, I'm not, I hate talking about you like you're not here, here, here. But as you've watched Melody's life, as you've watched her character, but also has you've watched God's gifting in this way on her life. That's part of you leading our church to say, you have this. I see this in you. And, and bringing that out is part of Melody being under your leadership and you leading our church still like there is a dance that's happening that happened in this situation. I, that I witnessed. Yeah. What would you say to that? Because I do think that's still under your authority, but also under your leadership to, to see the gifting that she has and to, to have her be that. Because, because to not, to not be exercising that part of who you are, Mel is asking you to not be fully who you are. Right. Yeah. And again, and so, but I do want to put an aspect there because those of us in our gay community would say, well, this is who full I am sex is different. And what I mean by sex, I don't mean like your woman sex, I mean like intercourse, that's different because what we do with our bodies, you know, can be. Yes, yes, yes. So, um, but I'm saying there's a credibility that you've watched in your life, watched your character, you've watched her follow Jesus, you've watched her. And so, I don't love the word vetted, but there was a vetting that's happened naturally through relationship, through working together and through knowing each other. Yeah. So, so here's the thing is, so let's back up because I think one issue is the gifting of Mel, which you are gifted. The other is, so here's what I would say is amber in your discussion. Are there examples in the Bible where women led? Yeah, Deborah. Yeah. And so, not only is Deborah the judge, she's the only judge that was good. Like no, no one else is good. She's the only judge that was both a judge and a prophet. She's the only judge that is honored by God and the people of Israel lived in peace for 40 years. And then this next week we're going to cover Hula, which is, you know, the female prophet who speaks and really leads Josiah to become a king unlike no other. He's the best king that nobody knows of. Here's what the book of King says there never was before or after a king like Josiah who did right in the Lord's eyes. And what did Josiah do? He listened to the prophetic utterance of Hula. Yeah. So, and his desire was for her and, you know, to listen to her and to submit to her. And she was a woman married to a man who worked in the wardrobe section of the temple. And so, Amber, so here's the thing is for everybody listening, you know, because we're going to get the hate mail, you know, you're allowing a woman to exercise the story. I would just say does the Bible allow women to exercise the story? And I've just given you two examples that you cannot refute. They led, they had power, they had authority and they spoke. Who did they speak for? Forgot. Right. So, so they exercised those authorities. Did we see that in the New Testament? Yes. Corinthians, Corinth had a problem. It was a mess in every way. But one of the women leaders that comes out of that church is Phoebe. So Phoebe becomes the theologian to help the church in Rome interpret the book of Romans. So, if you go find Old King James version of the Bible or an old English standard version, you know, like a hundred years old, it was say the book of Romans delivered by Phoebe. Like, you know, that's the intro. And that's the last verse, I think in Romans 16, does it end in 30 or 27? I don't know what it's longer than that. The last chapter is longer than that. But the last verse they add, they put her name in 27. Yeah. So, thank you. So 27. And so some of the older translations include delivered to by Phoebe. And so that's a scribal entry that we now know was not a part of the original text. But there was a part where the church wanted to know, hey guys, even John Calvin, when they when they studied the other like, wait a minute, these women had authority that we're not practicing. And we're not understanding. And so it was the later church tradition that that kind of created and by later, I mean, post fourth century. Women to be silent and subservient in the church. And that is not the way the church was early on. Women were everywhere did everything, financed and managed things. And again, we had this conversation with Donna. A couple of weeks ago, we have completely removed a social category that still existed that we don't talk about. And that is the social category of class. So everything today is a conversation about gender sexuality and race. And what I asked Donna was, I said, Donna, would you say that LeBron James children are more or less privileged than mine? The answer is obvious. They're more privileged. They have privileges. And they have reached that my kids will never have because LeBron James exists in a class. We don't like to talk about that. You know, and it's like, right, so when you get on the airplane, there's economy class, there's economy plus, there's business class and there's first class. LeBron James is on his own plane. Right. Like that's a whole nother stratosphere of class that I will never experience. And so and that's what to say that there aren't issues to black people. It's just to say that when you are elevated to a certain class, it no longer exists for you. And the same is true of women in the ancient world. There were women like Priscilla, there were women like Lydia that had achieved a status. And so we talked about this because one of the questions I think was, where do you see Lydia being a leader? And I said, it says it right there in the text when Lydia became a Christian so did her whole household. Like they followed her. They didn't have a meeting. You know, she's a woman should we all convert. She is operating. And so here's the other thing that's incredible for women to understand, especially to our women in the church when you read the household codes in. Ephesians chapter five or women must submit. So here's what most scholars believe if your husband was dead or you were a single woman, you listen, you became the de facto man. You didn't go, oh, I wish I had a man so I could be under his covering Lydia operated as the head of household in her house. And it was just it was just assumed. Yeah. And so because she own property, she ran a business, she was, you know, a modern day business woman in an ancient world. And so she didn't see herself as subservient. Now there would have been classes like, for example, if she had a meeting meeting with the Roman Emperor or a Roman senator, where then she would become a woman again because class always matters more. And, you know, there were elite classes in the Roman world. So that's really a possible citizenship was so important. So what are your thoughts or feelings for this? Yeah, it's and I know it's weird. Well, you've talked about so many things. And I think the first thing I would say to Amber and to other people who are wrestling with this when it comes to understanding this is when it comes to studying the Bible, we need to learn to interpret the unclear in light of the clear. The things that are unclear or controversial, we can actually study more and then find and get clarity from that. So early on when I realized that, you know, I felt like I had the gift of teaching, but was not I was not in a spiritual atmosphere conducive to bringing that out in me. I actually had well-meaning people suggest that something was wrong with me because I wanted to teach and people that I respected who I thought knew the scripture. So the first thing I had to do is I had to go into the scripture for myself because I felt like I was being as humble and as real before God as I could and not trying to seek after something that I didn't have, but something that I did. And then if I do have it, if that's the actual truth, I'm responsible to stew or that. So how do I do that in light of where I am? So as I began to study, of course I came to first Timothy to, of course I came to first Corinthians 14. But even when you look at first Corinthians 14 and you understand the plight of women at the church in Corinth, who weren't educated, weren't able to understand the language, most likely we're sitting through a church service that they could not understand. And while they couldn't understand it, they began to talk to each other and got loud and got disrupted and pause it. Hey, if you don't understand what's happening, go home and ask your husband. In the broader context of first Corinthians 14, he's talking about letting things be done decently and in order. So that understanding makes sense. Same with first Timothy too. Paul disciples Timothy, Timothy's emerging as a leader and he's counseling him for where he's at in ministry. When you then zoom out and look from Genesis to Revelation, what you talked about with the women at the resurrection, what you talked about with Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus, what we've seen with Miriam and with Hilda and with Queen Esther and we go on and on and on and on. Those two verses that we sort of extract and pull away don't make sense in light of everything else at the Bible says. So I think it's important. And the other thing I would say too is, you know, for years, I would read Paul and I'm like was Paul like anti women like I'm trying to make sense. He was not. And when you look at the church to the church in class, the church in Ephesus, the church in Galatia, and he writes to them. He writes passages that are very all inclusive to edify each other to teach one another to speak to each other to sing to each other with songs and spiritual spiritual songs. He's giving those commands to the entire church. He didn't say to the men of cloth, to the men of Galatia, but to the entire church, use your spiritual gifts, the ones that God has given you to what to edify and build up the church. He never makes a distinction with gifting that it was that teaching was solely for men. And so we can't extract these one or two verses. And like you said, make them the banner verses because then you have to throw out a lot more scripture. You actually need to look at the whole of scripture and then look at those two and go, then what else was going on here? Last thing I'll say is, anti right, just one of the most brilliant new testament minds there is also helps bring light to the fact that this is become an American church problem. And it doesn't exist in a lot of other cultures around the globe. And so when people ask him about it, he's sometimes he's like, I don't even know why we're talking about this because it's not a thing over here. And that's where we as American Christians have to remember that the Jesus that we serve that has saved us. He is the God of the world, not the God of America. And we need to make sure that we don't take scripture and try to conform up to American culture when it's he's the God of us all every tribe and every tongue in his scripture applies to everybody. Amen. Great word. And I would just say this. So if you guys have noticed, you know, the whole graphic by your amazing team, creative team is this puzzle piece. And we're trying to put this puzzle together because there are some things that are unclear. And so I think what Melody said is so powerful. Interpret the unclear in light of the clear who are the who are the first people that preached women? Okay, well, who asked them to preach Jesus? Like, okay, so so that's I would, you know, and I would just say, you know, that for everyone that that I think Jesus needs to trump everything. Yeah, you know, including Paul May or man. Man, you know, what Paul may or may not have said is that Jesus told them to go and preach in the Greek word is Lego, which is the same word in Matthew 23 practice when Jesus criticizes the Pharisees. He says for they do not practice where they preach that word is Lego. It's the same word go and tell go and proclaim the next thing is why is junior in jail. So why is junior in jail in in Roman 16? She would only have been in jail if she was speaking in public. That's the only reason Romans did not did not in prison women. They didn't have a section for women in prison. It was a very, very rare thing to arrest a woman. So she probably was an apologist who was well known amongst the apostles or was an apostle for speaking and proclaiming the truth of God as an evangelist as an apostle. And the apostle Paul says that she and her husband had been had known Christ before him. There are some people who believe she may have been a part of the disciples that Jesus sent out two by two. Like in my mind growing up as a Baptist kid, those were all men. It never occurred to me that he might send out women when women are a part of the traveling ministry of Jesus the entire time. Yes, financing it. Mary of Magdalene, Joe Anna, the household manager of Herod. These are wealthy, powerful women who are financing the ministry of Jesus and probably orchestrating it and helping with the planning and making sure because you imagine when Jesus comes to a town it creates a problem. Yeah. So, okay, we have a couple more questions. This next one. I think there's some more in regards to this. I'm sure we're going to circle back to some of this, but this next question comes from Gregory and Crestline, which is one of our mountain communities here. It's about Pastor Frado's message. It says Pastor Frado spoke about leading with the meekness of Christ. What's the difference between meekness and humility? That's first question. And how do we balance meekness and authority in leadership? Yeah, I mean, this is a great question. And you know, meekness and humility, it's like guilt and shame. And so I always feel people tried to divide guilt and shame perfectly. And I think that you can in some ways, but they're so close, they share so many similarities in our language. Meekness and humility do the same thing. And so, so meekness is this attitude of power under control. And so it's saying that I have gifting. I have authority. But I'm going to exercise that in such a way that I don't dominate or try to control or try to manipulate or use people. But I understand that at Sandals Church, I am the lead pastor and I do have authority. So, you know, I think humility sometimes can be like we see humility in our culture as kind of people without power, without prestige. So meekness is a person maybe who has power and authority like Jesus, but he's not exercising it. So, it's this idea of power under control that my aggressive tendencies are submitting to my spiritual conscious and calling. So, how would you define it? Because it's really difficult. I think I heard Lisa Vivier one time say that meekness is strength under control. And I love that definition. Meekness is not weakness. I mean, that's the, that's sort of the bottom line. And so I think when you when you lead with confidence rather than arrogance, I think you're walking in the direction of weakness. Erragance is look how good I am. Confidence is I've been given a gift by God to steward and I will walk in humility as I seek to obey him. And I think then you're moving in weakness. I think when you walk in arrogance is when you're walking away from that. And you don't have a meek because I used to always think that meek, I was like, I'm never meek because I'm not quiet. But I don't think that that's what it means. And so understanding that I think really even in how you lead Matt, I think one of the things that set you apart from other pastors and leaders I've seen is there's only one version of you. You are the same Matt Brown in the parking lot at state or brothers that you are speaking at a conference of thousands of people. I think that's I think that's a replication of meekness. You are who you are. You're real. You're authentic. You don't act like you're a big deal. You don't act one way over here and one way over here. You you have incredible strength. But you you also keep that under control. You're very humble. You're submissive to God. The way that you listen to Tammy and I heard to speak into your life. I think I think it is what set you apart. It shouldn't be rare among Christian leaders and translators, but it is. But I think that those are the distinctions that you can make when you meet a meek leader versus when a guy that or a woman that's not. Yeah. And what I would say is Gregory, I think any any talent, any gifting money, beauty, intelligence, charisma, fame, any of those things can destroy us. And I've watched it, man. I have watched dynamic, amazing young men in our church, speak on the platform and be destroyed. They're pride swallowed them and they they pushed out the Holy Spirit and the anointing of God. And what I've learned in this way that I say is is I will always have talents. God gave me those at when I was born. And so I think Carl Lentz is talented. I think he's lost his anointing. He will never be anointed of God like he was. He will always be extremely talented. He's a person. But anointing comes with walking in weakness, walking in humility and and that's the way that Jesus let and that's the way that we know we need to lead and so much of I think part of it is, you know, I've passed it in Riverside, which is not an extraordinary, extraordinarily wealthy. It's not and again, if you live in Riverside, I love you. It's not an extraordinarily prestigious place to live in in Southern California. You know, we are looked down upon by the coastal cities. It's just the reality. And so I think that I think that the Lord has placed me here to help me stay me, to help me stay humble. And you know, I mean, I got his repeatedly worked in my life to humble me because he cares more about my character than he does about my fame. And I just have had to understand that because I've been passed over many, many times and it's been painful. It's been hurtful. And I just have to assume that God loves who I'm becoming as a person inside more than then he cares about who I'm being perceived as. On the outside. And so and let me just say this to everyone, it's not, it does not feel good when the Lord helps you with maintenance. It does not feel good when the Lord helps you with humility. And I mean, I could give I could give you like bizarre things that have happened. So like five years ago, sandals was one of the fastest growing churches in America. We got invited to a. The fastest churches in America. Dinner dinner recognition and they recognize every single church and pastor except one you want to guess who they forgot to recognize. And here I am sitting in this room at a table with my friends and they're like, what are you doing here? And I was mortified. And I mean, they just they just forgot. And so Dan's party has the plaque in his office. Yeah, we're really sorry we forgot to announce you. And I just like, okay, Lord, that hurt, but but why? Well, okay, because clearly God knows I could get a big head. So he's going to keep helping me to to figure this out. And so just just know this. I think insults and slides help us keep help keep us right where God wants us. And yeah, and especially with, you know, the internet now and you know, I mean Madison that's in here. She has a post. You know, I she always says it's your post, but she posted I didn't post it, but it has eight million views. I mean, think about eight million views. I mean, that's like Jimmy. That's like Jimmy Kimmel's tally for the whole week for every show. And if I am not careful, that can go to my head because because I'm not those eight million views. And by the way, half of them call me an imbus also. You know, you know, so we just have to say, okay, Lord, keep me humble. And again, you know, Tammy and I are not getting in fights when I'm meek. We're not getting in fights when I'm humble. We're getting in fights and arguments when I'm arrogant. Yeah, we're getting in fights when I'm offended. Rather than saying, okay, what can I learn in this? And even when I don't agree or don't think she's being fair, you know, I'm not going to blow it up when I'm meek. I'm going to try to seek to understand. And, you know, somebody challenged me this years ago, they said, when you speak, speak like you're right, when you listen, listen, like you could be wrong. And so that's just something that's always stuck with me. So when Tammy said that, well, there's a lot in here that you have about. Wow, looks like we still have a lot to learn after 30 years. And so, and so that's what I try to do because what because one of the things I've been repeatedly confronted with, even in counseling is I'm not a good listener, especially when I'm offended. And I have a pastor friend of mine who was counseling, one of the leaders in our church and the two leaders were talking and he told me, he said, okay, I want you to repeat back to me what she just said. And the other leader could not say one thing. And I remember when Tammy and I were in counseling, the first first thing we did was Tammy shared, I asked her 10 questions, I asked 10 questions that he'd written down. And then he said, repeat back to me, her answers. Dude, I got like 5% right. And here's what he said, our counselor, Mark, he said, why was writing her answers down? Do you want to hear them? And I wasn't even close to the person that I claim to love the most. I wasn't even close to what she said. And the truth is I started panicking and I'm a three so I started lying and making up things that I thought, maybe she said, she probably said, she probably said, she probably said, yeah. And again, so argue like you're right. So when you're when you're a leader, preach like you're right, but listen like you could have been wrong. And so when people speak rather than getting offended and you know, like a couple, like a couple months ago, remember when that person said, hey, I felt like you shamed me because we watch online. I did. I'm sorry. You know, because I get offended when when people would rather watch online at home, then come to church, but I would do the same thing if I had to make a choice, especially if we were, you know, we had a family member. I'm going to say you wouldn't do the same thing because we are church whether we're on the case. I know, but if we had a family member that was, you know, in a certain sense, to me, no compromise, which they did. And I made them feel bad. And he said, I feel like you shame me. And I was like, well, when you think about if if meat is a strength under control, then strength without control is chaos is dangerous. And so I think God, when we pursue meat, this God keeps us from being dangerous to ourself and to others. And that's what good leadership should pursue. I grew up in a culture where our my pastor had no accountability. No one he was accountable to. He was like the czar of the church. That's dangerous. That's when we can veer into a cult like, you know, situations, but humility and meat and this keeps you before God. God, fill me. God use me. I remember seeing at a cattle's conference once in Andy Stanley. I had never heard someone say this. He goes, God made me good at communicating. He just owned it. And I looked around like, he said, okay, that he's alive. You know, he just, he was making it clear. God made me good at this. So I'm doing it. God could decide tomorrow that I'm not going to be good at this anymore. I can't form a thought or create a sticky statement or do whatever. So as long as I have this gift, I'm responsible to steward it. But God gets to say how long I haven't. It's not me. Yeah. You know, and I was like, that's both confident and humble at the same time. And that's what I think God wants. He wants the church to walk in the gifts that he's given, recognizing their gifts and he can take them way at any time. Oh, man. So the Lord actually did that to me once. I don't think I've ever told this story. So sandals really struggled for two years. Those of you guys who weren't here at the beginning, Madison was here. So we really struggled. I mean, it was really, really hard. We didn't break 100 for a year. I mean, and then we are second year, we broke 200. And then something happened. The Holy Spirit decided to show up and we were like 250, 350. I mean, each week 400, 500. We're going through this series, the five love languages. And I was preaching through it. And I realized, God made me good at communicating. And I was loving it. I was loving it. And I remember it was like week six in the series. And we were growing. I mean, I think we broke a thousand in that series. Like and you know, sandals is really big to people like that. It was a big deal. This is like 2000, 2001. We broke a thousand. And I remember that week prepping. I spent more time picking out my shirt than I did prepping for the message. And right before I walked out the stage, I heard the Holy Spirit say, I'm going to watch. We'll see how you do. And let me tell you something. I, dude, I bombed. It was so bad. Nothing worked. Like you said, like you said, I'm going to be I couldn't remember a stick statement. I couldn't remember my words. I was panicking. And I think that week someone had we Tammy and I were the grocery store and some young kids screamed out, Hey, are you Matt Brown? It's so cool. Like that was the week where I started to get recognized. And I remember afterwards in the lobby, this woman came up to me and she said, prophetically, what happened to you tonight? Well, and I said, okay, Lord, I'm never doing that again. Holy Spirit, I invite you to be a part of this ministry for the rest of our lives because, you know, it's it's it's it's a delicate thing. And you know, one of my friends, I passed was a huge church in Georgia. He texted me last week and he's from England. He passed was in Georgia, which is weird. And he said, he said, he said, it amazes me that it sandals you just keep grinding. I don't understand. And when I get it, it's the Holy Spirit. I learned early on. I cannot do this without you, God. I need you. We have one last question for this episode and this comes from Rita and like arrowhead, which is another mountain community in our area. And it does circle back to this weekend's message. So it says this. I had a question regarding Sunday sermon with Melody workman while I enjoyed the sermon. That always sounds like a lead. And I have tremendous respect for Melody. That's good. I did not feel that the sermon was something that would have been appropriate for all. I think that she could have given this talk at a woman's conference. Does this mean that sandals churches going to have women pastors teachers doing sermons on Sunday. I read into the question that I'm against this. I'm merely asking the question is sandals going in this direction. Yeah, so Rita, I apologize. I did my best to let you know that we're going in this direction. But apparently I had failed. So the whole point of the she her series is to let you know that women did lead have led should lead can speak should speak could preach. So I feel like it's all failure right now. So, so yeah, I mean we're going to have Melody has a gift of speaking. We're going to have Melody and other women who have the gift of communication to communicate to the platform. And so, you know, sandals churches not totally egalitarian. We're not totally complimentary and if you don't know what either of those words means, God bless you. And I'll see you go over that in a few podcasts back. So, so basically what what where I've landed is I don't think that men and women are the same. I think you guys are ladies and I'm a man and there are differences and they're not just differences in gender. There are differences in roles in the church. However, God utilizes and gifted gifts gifts. Here's the point that the Apostle Paul makes so emphatically in first Corinthians is that the Holy Spirit gives gifts to whom he chooses. I feel like God has given Melody the gift of preaching and teaching and and that's something that for me. I did not feel right suppressing that gift or not allowing that gift having said that I think that the scriptures are clear that the role of elder and press bootarast that is those who oversee the church who lead in teaching and in doctrine and in understanding doctrine should be men. So, for some of our ladies that's not going to be far enough for some of our men, you know, it's not going to be far enough. Here's what I want our church to know is all of our pastors have been involved in the discussion. No one has been silenced. You know, I am not aware of any pastor that is not an agreement with what we've done. I think there are some pastors who think we should have gone further than what I am allowing us to go. And the reason for that Rita is because I cannot allow myself to go further than what I believe the word of God says. So, I must not violate my own conscience in terms of understanding what the scriptures teach because the Bible says that as the chief elder of our church that I must watch my life and doctrine closely because it will both save me and those I teach. I take that responsibility very, very seriously and very, very heavy. I think that, you know, as a Southern Baptist coming from a Southern Baptist nomination were women were not allowed to teach. Here's what I've learned. We know that that was not the case in the early church. We now know that it is not debatable. It is very, very clear that women had all kinds of roles and did speak and have spoken in the word of God. And I don't know how the church has looked upon Deborah all these years and has looked upon Hula. I mean, there are many Christians in our church who have been a Christian in a whole life they've never heard the name Hula. She has mentioned both in second Kings and in second Chronicles. And so here's how I interpret second Kings and Chronicles. It's like the Democrats had a book and the Republicans had a book and they both wrote a book on the history of the church. And so both the Democrats and the Republicans said, who does the big deal? Glad you clarified that because like you use the language we now know this isn't something that's new. That like we're just figure you know that's just getting figured out, but it's always been there. And that's one of the things that I think you've done so well in the series is taking what you've done an excavation of scripture self gone to major theologians and done that same work. So it's not something that's new that's just decided now, but like why you know part of that is tradition. Like and not having a category or for a place to even have these discussions. Yeah. And so and so women, you know, are leading theologians leader think leading thinkers in the church and again, go back to the source. What was the first thing Jesus did. And again, and and people are not going to like this. You know, like I have a good friend of mine who believes that that pastor should should preach verse by verse book from book. And I said, well, is that how Jesus preached and he said, I am not a preacher like Jesus. And I tend to read preacher that goes I was like, well, should we be. But but literally what the decision he's made is he is adopted tradition over the way that Jesus taught Jesus never went through Leviticus verse by verse. But what he did do is he quoted from it. So you know, love your neighbor as yourself. That's Leviticus 19 or 18. I can't remember which chapter. So can you guys put that in the show notes. I think it's Leviticus 19. That's where love your neighbor as yourself comes from. And Jesus pulled the most important thing out of that book because Leviticus is contextual towards Jews living in under mosaic law. And Jesus is preparing us to transition for the church. So what do we need to know for that? Yeah, love each other. I want to address this question and then have both of you guys sort of speak to it, but it says I did not feel that the sermon was something that would have been appropriate for all. And I actually, I'm going to answer that my thought on that portion first, which is I hadn't thought of it in that way, because and then she later says on read a set, you say, this would have been great for a woman's conference, which yes, it absolutely would have there were so many good truths in that. And I think I probably don't think. I think in this term, because I am used to sitting under your teaching and I would have heard you teach at Colt of A or to staff gathering or are these kind of things. So I didn't think about this one way or the other, but one thing that was so interesting to me is Matt and I were in the lobby on Sunday at Hunter Park. It actually was the men more than women who came up to us and said, I've never thought about this. I mean, you had points about knowing when to speak and when to stay silent, when to stop being a fool, when like there were so many points that I think were not gender specific, but human nature, relevant. So I hadn't thought of that. And I was surprised. I mean, we have a friend who's like the manliest man, one of them that I know his name is Victor, but he came up to us and he was like this message. And he could barely speak towards it. And that's that did surprise me, not because I thought one way or the other, but I didn't. So I would say I hadn't thought of it, but I saw in real time that that actually wasn't true that so many men have reached out or said certain points that really resonated with them. And part of that I think is because regardless of male or female, when you're speaking the word of God, there isn't authority to it. Yeah. Right. And so that does happen regardless of it would be new sharing that or not sharing that there isn't authority that that cuts to us that happened. But how would you guys address that portion of the question of is this for all? Yeah. And so I would just say, let me take this before Mel. I would say, I don't know that I have ever preached a message that's for all. I think people have to sit through it. But I, but Rita for me to feel the pressure Rita and I know you don't mean this, but for me to feel the pressure that I have to communicate in such a way that it touches all 30,000 lives of those who listen would make me jump off a building and I would have a panic attack and anxiety and I would just lose it. And so I would say that I have to preach Rita is the message that God has given me. And so what I would say is as a Christian, not every sermon is for you. But you are a part of the body of Christ and part of your role as a parishioner as a member of a church is to say, Lord, someone needed that today and I pray that they heard it. And I am here today to do a couple things. I'm here today to welcome people who needed to hear that. I'm here to thank the kids ministry for the moms and for the husbands so that they could have two seconds away from their kid. You guys are not this, but Melody had a woman's kid puke on Saturday night once you preach life. And she's admitted her child's vomited on the front row while Melody's trying to teach and preach. And again, this is no shame on that mom. It's just to say it's just to say this really happened and part of the issue is we need greeters that are inviting moms to say, hey, we have a great program for your kid, not that we wanted, not that we wanted that kid to be sick and kids ministry. We're more equipped to deal with vomiting, there's just a lot of dynamics. Something we can happening outside of just the message that's why we come together as a body believer. Yeah, and so some weekends read it. It's about the worship. You needed to be there for the worship. Sometimes it's just a word. Sometimes it's just the Lord's supper. Sometimes it's just a point. And I enjoyed all of what Melody said, but there were a couple of things that God really spoke to me. And really challenged me and I went, oh, and so here's the thing that was bizarre Melody. So so Melody knows this, but I asked you to preach on this past I preached on this passage. And there were things that I got out of it that you saw that I missed. And some of that's just because I'm a dude, I never thought about what it must be like to be a woman and to be carried off in a caravan. Or have other wives. I just brought it to the circle. I didn't think about that. You know, so and I thought that your gender, your God given gender brought out some things that I think as a church we needed to hear. And I think that was important. So I would just say Rita, we're not going to connect. None of us are going to connect with. I mean Melody and Tammy have to lie and tell me every single week is done. But we're not going to connect with everywhere or everything. And part of what I would say is I think from Mel's first sermon, you got to be careful and women particularly struggle with this. You know, it's why I love Tulsi Gabbard and not Hillary Clinton Hillary Clinton sounds naggy. I've never heard Tulsi Gabbard sound naggy. And one of the gifts of Tulsi Gabbard, she says it once and moves on. And for every woman communicator, if I can tell you one thing, say it once and move on. And let the Holy Spirit punch. And so Tulsi Gabbard's really, really good at that. But she strikes the right tone. You know, because we all have in the back of our mind our mother's yelling at us, right? You got it. I mean, your mom's here and you never yelled, but my mom was a yell. And so whenever Tammy is back here, I'm like, wow, I just literally am five years old. So it's, it's tone and men have lower tones that feel more authoritative. And so when Tammy used to speak, what would I say? Don't sound. Don't I know when she's like my mother. No, I would say don't tell Melsy. Oh, there's a lot of things. No, when I used to say when Tammy gets nervous, when she gets nervous, she gets her her throat tight. Yeah, I get. And she gets really high pitch. And I'm like, look, it's it and I want every speaker to say this. It's not just singers who need pitch. Yeah, it's speakers. You've got to learn to pause and so yeah, I can tell you what my husband tells me what. Thank you. Maybe smile more. Bro, what? I told Fred other same thing. I would say this though, more than just the pitch or the tone, I think that it's so important. If if not, if you and I just think about or anyone listening thinks about either your home dynamic you grew up in or the one that you're leading now as the mother and the father, there are times with in our own home with our own family that you can say something same words, same tone or see a situation that happened with the kids. And and completely read it one way. And then I'm like, but what about this? Did you handle the heart? Well, did you see this? I think the voice of the mother and the father is just so important because we see things differently. We read nuances differently. There are times in our home where things need to be handled maybe more gently. And what's interesting is I would initially I think I would say I do that, but I think that's not true. I think there are times where you see the things that need to be handled more gently when I get harsh and vice versa. And I think in the church as a whole, it is important to hear both the voice of the mother and the father. And I think that's something that you're saying when you say I've taught on this passage, I never saw certain things. That's because she's a different set of eyes looking at different nuances to life, which is why we're just better together. And I think when it comes to the broader church, speaking on the platform and teaching on the weekends. And just my own personal experience this last weekend of hearing the feedback from the men who just heard something they needed to hear that maybe they wouldn't hear from their wife telling them you need to know when to speak and when not to speak, but melody can say it on the stage and they can go, I do need to know that in a way that's that's less. And so I just think the voice of the mother and the fathers in our church is so important. So when I was little, I remember my mom would get my progress reports and she's in here so she can test this. It would say melodies really bossy like in my in my class. And I feel what I wanted to say was my teachers were weak and I needed to get in charge. I'm not actually accurate. But unfiltered immature bossy and you know in the New Testament, it talks about the refineress fire. Right. Going through the refineress fire and coming out as gold, that involved struggle, that involves pain, that involved setbacks for me, that involved a rena's that I wanted to be in that I was excluded from. And all of those things helped shaped in me, what I would say is to where I am now with plenty of room to grow still, that when I'm teaching God's word, I stand very humbly, but very comfortably in a place of authority without being bossy. I don't need to boss anyone around to get them to do what God's words says. Even the power of the Holy Spirit, and I accept with responsibility, but also with humility, the platform and the opportunity that you're giving me to take God's word and let God's word speak for itself, but not go, I don't know if this, this is what his word says, you get to choose what you do with it. And I can speak that with authority without being bossy. And so regardless of the audience who's there, if it's men only if it's women only regardless, I think that when you're handling God's word, if you've heard from God, you can speak with authority without being arrogant or without being bossy because God has deposited a word in you. And I knew that with confidence that my job was then just to be as clear and articulate as engaging as I could be with the gift he's given me to deposit that word into somebody else. And what God does with that from there is between them and the Holy Spirit. I've done I've done I've done my part. Yeah. So Rita, hopefully, I mean, you didn't know that melody was going to be on the debrief today. So I hope you don't feel bad. I think it's a great question. It's a good question. Yeah, I think it's a great question. And a question a lot of people are asking. I mean, these questions are the questions that you and I've gotten on text messages and emails and are on the Instagram. So these are really great questions. Can I can I throw one in there? Do we have time for one more? I mean, they have to say yes. Yeah. So let me ask you this. I want you to speak to because so many women in our church are the stronger partner. And I'm not saying you're stronger than Adam. Because Adam's strong. But how do you how do you function in a marriage where you're not overstepping? You're not what I think the word often tail means that Paul is talking about in first Timothy 12. Excuse me, first Timothy, two 12. How do you not often tail your husband? I mean, how do you not because you know you from an early age, you thought you should be in charge of the teacher. So how do you operate in a way where you don't overstep his gifts? How do you not emasculate him? So he's from Jersey, which is kind of cheating. Well, he's hard to emasculate. Yeah. He's like the size of four. Yeah. But actually, what's really beautiful about my relationship with Adam is that when we started dating, I was in a pretty apathetic state spiritually. And he was on fire for God. Okay. And I grew up in a pastor's home. So I knew God. I knew the game, you know, but I was just really apathetic. And he began to write devotionals for me to get back into the Bible. Well, he would write them and type them in the print them out as dot matrix. Yeah. And we're both the size. Everyone in the room is young as I was. Yeah. And give them to me to help me revive my passion for the word. And then for so many years in our marriage, when there were opportunities not given to me, are available to me, I would sit with him in his sermon prep. We would bounce ideas off of each other. And I would sit there and cheer him on as he gave the word. I would sit there and know where he was going in the sermon. Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited for them when he says this. And what he told me was so sweet was he did that for me this past weekend. I knew they when you were going to say, and so it's a beautiful. I think what I think what we share is a beautiful representation of what it looks like when two people who are learning to operate in their giftedness and have made a place in their marriage to stew or two callings. Not one. God has not called any believer to sit on the sidelines. He hasn't said, well, because you're stronger. Other partner used to sit over here. No, he's called that other partner to find where they're strong and run hard in their lane. Right. So we don't compete with each other. We don't compare each other. He is fully supportive of me and what I do, I am fully supported of him and what he does. We realize that we are better together for the kingdom of God when we are operating in our full giftedness. And for a lot of women for a long time, this was me when you were when you were in arenas where they weren't extending you an opportunity. You really struggle to know what my gifts are. Like I feel like my gifts are this, but then you keep telling me it's not. And during those worst seasons of my life, it was the voice of my husband that kept telling me this is your gift. This is your calling. God is going to bring this to fruition in your life. And so we got through this weekend. He was here for all six of my sermons. We just had such a sweet time of celebration together recognizing the goodness and the faith on the so God after years that felt like what I called my desert years. I'm never going to get to do this. And he was the biggest supporter of the biggest champion. So I would just say to everybody out there, first to single ladies, look for the guy that's intrigued by your strength and not intimidated by it. If you marry someone who's intimidated by your strength, you will always have shrink back syndrome. And you'll never get to fully exercise your gifts. It is worth waiting on the man who is strong enough in his own right that he applaud you in the strength that you possess and doesn't feel like he needs to take that from you or keep that from you. But wants you to propel forward and do what God's called you to do. And I would say to to men as well. If you're married to a strong woman, one of the best things you can do in helping her recognize your God given strength, don't enable her bossiness, help refine her towards godliness. Adam refines me and I welcome it. I invite him because he has wisdom and discernment. And I know he's for me. You know, as an any gram eight, we're always asking for me who's against me. He is for me. He has an open invitation to speak into my life anytime. As do you, as do you, as do other people that I know are for me. I welcome that. I haven't arrived. I still need to grow. But my husband is for me. So I want him to go, hey, when you say that or do that, it's I don't think I don't think you should say that like that. I would change this. I like welcome that all day long. So if you if you can lovingly refine her towards godliness and not just enable bossiness, she can become the best version of strength and God wants her to be. This makes me think of freightos message a few weekends ago, but he actually talked about strength. And if you're intimidated by woman's strength, like maybe you're not as strong as you are. Yeah. And I would say part of the Adam not being emasculated if you will is because he's got a strength. He is not intimidated by melody strengths. Because he knows who he is. And so I think, you know, that that's maybe something for people to wrestle with. I wrestle with that. As you know, and you know, it's just you can't emasculate somebody who's solid. And so yeah, it's good questions though. Any last thoughts? Yeah, I would just say that the security that we all long for comes from living out the giftedness that God's already placed in us. I think insecurity comes from trying to be something that we're not. And I just would encourage all of our listeners to just find you find a way to serve the local church, you know, that that is God's plan. And so today, there is no plan B, the local church is the hope of the world and find a way to use your giftedness. And so here's what I hope everybody got out of, you know, melody speaking this weekend. And I texted Dan. This after I heard your message that I'm really proud of San Elstur today because we've proven again that we put gifting over over everything. So Lord has gifted you there is a place for you at San Elstur. There's a place for you to serve. There's a place for you to be heard and a place for you to speak. And so I think that's just really important for us to church and just just know people are going to say things they're going to come at us, you know, I mean, that's just the reality. But these will be, you know, Christian brothers and sisters who have read the text and come to a different conclusion. And so we're part of the struggle that we face as Christians as we don't all come to the same conclusion. That's why there are 272 denominations of Baptist. Well, it's just Baptist and they all think they're right. So, so we just have to say, look, we've wrestled with the scriptures. The word of God is the most important thing to us here. We've not speak with one voice on this on this issue. And so we have to try to understand again, the personal letters of Paul to a church city pastor for two and a half years and Corinth and a young person. He called a son in Timothy. These were personal letters and he did not address these these issues in other churches where he called us all to speak all to prophesy all to listen all to serve where he refers to Phoebe as a saint in the church. And he's welcome, her as you would welcome me. And he does the same, you know, of a Paforditis and Timothy when they are the ones delivering the messages. And so it's just so important that we we do this. And again, thank you for your love support. Thank you Rita for your great question. Joy for your great question. Gregory Amber Jonathan. The debrief show is only as good as your questions. And so thank you so much. And I look forward to you guys continuing listening. And I look forward to the debrief as we get ready to wrap up the. I always say she he. She he's so she her so. Yeah, so just you guys know this idea, Timmy, I'm talking about this last week was originally her. So I thought about writing a whole book. Two years ago pre COVID. Yes, pre COVID. And so but because of the gender stuff, I thought I won't make it she heard because it will. And it has it's it's invited. It's gotten some attention that we wanted. Yeah, but thanks for being brave. Thanks for being brave and thanks for wrestling through scripture and then being compelled to share with us what you've learned. That's leading us well. And and I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for what it means for all the sons and daughters of Sandal Shurch. Yeah. So and just in just the way that you lead alongside of him, you gave me my first opportunities to teach here. Opportunity after opportunity and you didn't have to. And so I'm eternally grateful for you helping me. If you actually cry, I'm going to think of a picture. So I'm just incredibly grateful to both of you because you represent what a church being led well looks like. And I'm grateful to be under your leadership. I have no problems submitting to your leadership. And so I'm grateful that our church gets to see what the church can be like when we're at our best. Well, Mel, thank you so much for coming today and just again, like these are conversations that are about you and and they're not something we want to have without you. So I'm so glad you got to speak into them as always. Great job today. And thank you to everybody for listening to the debrief podcast. Again, like Matt said, the podcast exists because you have questions and this podcast is meant to be such a resource for you guys to maybe ask the questions that Matt can get into and depth in the lobby or through an email. Like, please make sure you're sending these questions in each week. And you can do that on the sandal search app or at move.sc slash ask. And thank you so much for having and inviting me to be here today. And we will see you all next time.